Anyone have any advice?!? I'm a dad of two kids who moved to Texas 1.5 years ago. My dealings with the ex are nil and the kids not often if at all. Recently we went back to court in which she appeared 1.5hrs late. Nothing was solved we go back in 4 months. Question if I voluntarily give up my parental rights in Ohio do I pay child support? I'm not to that point but it has crossed my mind.
Is there any good lawyers who would give me some good FREE advice on dealing with PAS - parent alienation syndrome, in a court situation? Or is there anyone who would be willing to give me ideas in contacting congress, judges or whom ever I should notify about this unrealistic situation I have with my children. To share stories would not do the whole thing justice. It sickens me to say the least how I strive to be a good and responsible parent, current on CS, often sends gifts, always calls .. and still can not have a good relationship with my own children.

thanks
ctg

Anyone have any advice?!? I'm a dad of two kids who moved to Texas 1.5 years ago. My dealings with the ex are nil and the kids not often if at all. Recently we went back to court in which she appeared 1.5hrs late. Nothing was solved we go back in 4 months. Question if I voluntarily give up my parental rights in Ohio do I pay child support? I'm not to that point but it has crossed my mind.
Is there any good lawyers who would give me some good FREE advice on dealing with PAS - parent alienation syndrome, in a court situation? Or is there anyone who would be willing to give me ideas in contacting congress, judges or whom ever I should notify about this unrealistic situation I have with my children. To share stories would not do the whole thing justice. It sickens me to say the least how I strive to be a good and responsible parent, current on CS, often sends gifts, always calls .. and still can not have a good relationship with my own children.

thanks
ctg

I don't know of any attorneys in OH, but I can offer you some other advice.

Don't give up, keep sending letters, cards. phone calls, etc. Some day, when your kids are grown, they might be able to see how hard you tried. I've know of cases where the father wasn't allowed to be a part of his kids' lives while they were young, but because he kept trying, his kids contacted him as adults and they have a good relationship now.

I do know that in most states a parent cannot relinquish thier rights unless there is a step parent who is willing to adopt.

No matter what - DO NOT terminate your rights.

Its very hard to fight PAS or Hostile Agressive Parenting. You must hold the CP to the court orders while maintaining your obligations - to the letter. This often involves keeping constant documentation of everything. Remember - its not what you think - its not what you say - its what you can prove.
File contempt orders if necessary. If found to be interfering with your visits - contact and relationship with your children the courts will intervene - just not always immediatly.
In my case it took Connecticut courts 13 years to see what the CP of my children was doing.
I now have full sole custody of my son.
Unfortunitly my daughter did not want to leave her mom (which I understand)
and her level of PAS would be moderate to severe. The CP intercepts anything I send and will refuse certified mail. She was so mad at our son she attempted to terminate her own rights (commen with alienating parents who loose control over the child) The judge denied her TRP request and nearly ripped her head off in court - not to mention what he said to her lawyer.
All you can do is the right thing. It hurts deep - and stinks but you can almost expect sometime down the road the children come around and want to be in your life.
Im hoping my daughter knows deep down poppa loves her.
As with all things legal consult a lawyer.

Good luck

Anyone have any advice?!? I'm a dad of two kids who moved to Texas 1.5 years ago. My dealings with the ex are nil and the kids not often if at all. Recently we went back to court in which she appeared 1.5hrs late. Nothing was solved we go back in 4 months. Question if I voluntarily give up my parental rights in Ohio do I pay child support? I'm not to that point but it has crossed my mind.

You cannot give up your rights just because you aren't having the relationship you want to have with your kids. The court would require that there is someone there willing to adopt those children. Otherwise, they have the right to be supported by you, even if they don't see you.

Is there any good lawyers who would give me some good FREE advice on dealing with PAS - parent alienation syndrome, in a court situation?

Probably not. Lawyers cost money. But a 30 minute consultation is probably not as expensive as you think. Check the yellow pages and call around.

I do know PAS is not recognized by the courts, becuase it is not a real syndrome as identifed in the DSM-IV. Parent alienation is real, but you cannot attatch the word "syndrome" to it, because then you would have to PROVE that your ex-wife somehow altered the mental state of the children and they now suffer this.

How would you prove this?

Or is there anyone who would be willing to give me ideas in contacting congress, judges or whom ever I should notify about this unrealistic situation I have with my children.

I am not sure what your congressman could do for you, but you can always write.

To share stories would not do the whole thing justice. It sickens me to say the least how I strive to be a good and responsible parent, current on CS, often sends gifts, always calls .. and still can not have a good relationship with my own children.

thanks
ctg

I think you might have a difficult time showing PAS when you are the one who moved away. Why did you move? What do your court orders say about visitation, weekly phone calls, etc. Is she actively STOPPING you from enforcing your visitation rights? How old are the children?

You say that to share stories wouldn't do the whole thing justice, but WITHOUT sharing all the details, it's hard to give you guidance.

I am certainly not saying that you are somehow making this up. I am simply saying what is true and what we can prove are two different things.

I did a quick search, and earlier this year there was a good conversation about PAS on the boards with some links and god info.

Go here:

http://www.laborlawtalk.com/showthread.php?t=169660&highlight=PAS

((but please don't post to that thread.... it is a dead thread))

And please keep in mind that the man who coined the term "parental alienation syndrome" and identified its markers committed suicide, and was considered a disgrace to some in the mental health care commuinty. His theories are an easy target for being debunked.

The courts absoultely recognize the idea of "parental alienation," but when you attatch the word "syndrome," it takes on a whole new life.

It's hard for me to tell by the post if the dad or the mother and children moved away to TX.

Either way, if you do not get your visitation time, file for contempt each and every time. You do not need a lawyer to do this. It takes work, but usually after the 3rd time, the process starts to go your way.

There is a larger shift in custody/visitation for men and the rights of fathers now. There is no reason why you can not request full custody yourself unless there are abuse issues. Keep a journal of everything. Also, get any records of people the mother may be living with as the children may be influenced by more than just the mother.

You're right. I read that as HE moved to Texas, but it's not clear.

OP, did YOU move or did SHE?

If she moved, why (better job, etc)? Was the move agreed to by both parties?

Remember that a syndrome is a collection of symptoms - like Down's Syndrome. There is not one particular complaint of a patient that would classify them with that diagnosis - but when you add them all up you have the syndrome.

As far as PAS not being in the DSMR - IV. There are many ailments that have yet to be added. It still comes down to interferance on a habitutal and consistant basis by the custodial parent.

Not sure the person that coined the phrase commiting suicide is relevant?

Ok, first thank you to all who replied. It's good just being able to discuss this with someone and have some support.

Now some explanation .. I did not move the mom moved with the kids. Acutally she had plans to move 3 different times before moving to Texas and I fought each move. However she still was "allowed"to go. She said it was because family lived there, untrue, and that her job here in Ohio would not be existant soon ... again untrue the VA hosp she worked for here in Ohio is still up and running matter of fact I applied just a few months ago to it.

Thank you to those who said not to attach "syndrome" to the end, I will not. Should I bring information on Parental Alienation to the next hearing? Should I write a list of events to the judge or have something with me when I go. In previous court dates my stuff gets washed under the table and she gets everything. I don't have much written proof. It seems that everyone she deals with on a regular basis either hides things for her and refuses to cooperate with me on getting information. Or they are just scared of threats she has made to them if they do share info with me. So nothing is in writing other than a statement from a daycare saying I dont have the right to have info on the children there and from a previous counsellor stating the dates the kids went to see her and that she feels counselling is not helping them at this point. UGH .. if they only go 3 times in a year .. how can it help?

As far as the visitatations .. my christmas visitation last year with the kids never happened. She said "I" couldnt work with her for a date to have the kids come up. I had tried in early September to discuss it with no reply (she refuses to talk on the phone with me and then sends emails months later saying "I've told you this previously and I'm restating it again for you since you've forgotten" There are never previous times of information!! ... and then Dec 5th of that year she gave me dates and I had to take it or leave it. I was in the middle of a move and had I had just one week more notice I could have arranged everything to work, however she assumed that I'm always available and free to have the kids come whenever... Anyway it didn't happen.

Phone calls, well in 14 months and 376 calls to her home phone ( only phone # I have) I only got thru 7o times .. of those 70 times 24 or so where under 10 minutes .. Yes she has the kids call sometimes on the way to daycare at 6:30am or on the way home from school at 3:30pm when I'm at work and can not answer my cell phone. Yet, the kids swear she does not have a cell phone .. how then do they call from the car???
I also work 3rd shift on the weekends and sleep during the day Sat and Sun and she knows that and has the kids call right in the middle of the afternoon. Sometime I answer, but most of the time I'm sleeping. Or if I hear a call, and wake up and call back, they will not answer the phone.

Last court order was for the kids to call Mon and Thurs from 830-900 and she never lets the kids talk a minute after 9 often they hang up on me and dont even say goodbye. That's when I do talk to them if they answer.

Some common comments from the kids .. oh gramma and grampa stopped by today .. you know the ones who hate you

or ... you are lying dad, like you always do .. that's not what mom said really happened.

it's just sad and aggravating .. I try not to prove my point to the kids because I know they are caught in the middle but it's HARD. My new wife just keeps telling me to write letters to them and save them for when they get older and their own minds.

I just can't stand what she does to their minds. And the fact that they are going to be so messed up over it when they grow up and see how things really are or were.

ctg

Remember that a syndrome is a collection of symptoms - like Down's Syndrome. There is not one particular complaint of a patient that would classify them with that diagnosis - but when you add them all up you have the syndrome.

Yes, but those symptoms need to be clinically recognizable in order for them to ultimately create the syndrome. The symptoms of PAS include things like "not wanting to be with parent" and "animosity toward parent." These things may be a result of alienation, they may be a result of the child being angry over the divorce. They are NOT, however, clinically recognizable as far as diagnosing a syndrome. Down's Syndrome is a medical condition. Comparing Down's and PAS is apples and oranges.

As far as PAS not being in the DSMR - IV. There are many ailments that have yet to be added. It still comes down to interferance on a habitutal and consistant basis by the custodial parent.

Yes, a lot of things are not in the DSM-IV. That doesn't mean they don't exist, but it DIRECTLY relates to whether they are admissible in court.

Take a syndrome that is NOT recognized, the theory of that syndrome developed by the proverbial "disgraced" doctor, then try to say your kid's suffer this without having them actually diagnosed by a court appointed doctor, and you've got yourself a losing battle.

What this poster has a better shot at, and when I say this I assume that the mother is DIRECTLY interfeering with his court-ordered rights for visitation and contact with his kids, is to file for contempt.

But legally, there is a HUGE difference between Parental Alienation and Parental Alienation Syndrome.

Not sure the person that coined the phrase commiting suicide is relevant?

It's relevant in that you have a non-existant "syndrome" developed by someone who was disgraced in his field and ultimately committed suicide. That makes his theory pretty easy to scrutinize.

PAS seems logically feesable. But what you know and what you can prove are not the same.

CTG, do you have ANY court ordered visitation, or is it just supposed to be agreed upon by the parties? This would be your first move, in my opinion, to file for visitaitons. Even though she moved, you will probably be responsible for the funding for the visits. If you haven't seen the children in a while, they may need to be supervised visits.

The fact that she hangs up the phone right at 9pm is mean and nasty, but I am not sure if that can be changed.

Document each and every time these things happen (what the kids say, when you cannot get through to them, etc). How old are the children?

Was this a particularly nasty divorce? If so, the conditions that led to the divorce are things to bring up with your attorney. For example, if there was infidelity (and I am absolutley NOT saying you cheated, just throwing out an example), and she were telling the kids all about it to get them on her side, that is parental alienation.

You definatley need to hire an attorney however, IMO.

In the meantime, your wife is correct. Just keep trying to write, call, and keep in touch as much as possible.

The real problems with PAS is that it was forwarded by a "doctor" with a spotty record, no clinical research and became, either by intent or use, as a haven for pedophilia.

I would really think hard before I brought it into court. Some judges will listen, some will not.

In both cases, it tends to cast a doubt on the father's true intention for seeing his children. I am NOT saying that is the case here... I am just saying that if you carry PAS's banner into battle, you get to carry it's luggage too.

CTG, do you have ANY court ordered visitation, or is it just supposed to be agreed upon by the parties? This would be your first move, in my opinion, to file for visitaitons. Even though she moved, you will probably be responsible for the funding for the visits. If you haven't seen the children in a while, they may need to be supervised visits.
as of now there is a court order visitation for half of christmas break and 8 weeks in the summer, however when we went in Nov I asked for it to be specific dates because of what happened last year .. so now I get said dates for christmas one year and said dates for the week after next year and so on .. also I get them for 8 weeks starting the 2nd week after they are out of school and I have until April 1st to tell "HER" what dates I specifically want them .. the problem this year she got a doctor to give an excuse that my daughter could not fly until 2 weeks into their 4 week visitation ... which was upsurd .. I'm a nurse and I am perfectly capable of handling a perscription... and even at the 2 week point she was on a different perscription I got her
The fact that she hangs up the phone right at 9pm is mean and nasty, but I am not sure if that can be changed.
The call tonight was the younger one answering she is 7 years old and I talked with her for about 5 minutes before she handed the phone to her brother who is older and listens more to his mom he's 12 I talked to him for another 10 minutes or so until he instantly got tired after I'm hearing her say in the backround it's time to get off the phone now .. and he just hung up .. there is never or hardly ever any good bye's or I love you's ... and the 7 yr old doesn't get back on the phone .. I'm told she's sleeping but I know she isn't allowed back on the phone because in reality she won't hang up on me .. she wants to keep talking to me ...

Document each and every time these things happen (what the kids say, when you cannot get through to them, etc). How old are the children?
they are again 7 and 12 a girl and boy respectfully

Was this a particularly nasty divorce? If so, the conditions that led to the divorce are things to bring up with your attorney. For example, if there was infidelity (and I am absolutley NOT saying you cheated, just throwing out an example), and she were telling the kids all about it to get them on her side, that is parental alienation.

yes, it was a nasty divorce ... and I do have an attorney and I have kept him updated but he doesnt' seem to understand my day to day dealings with this person, he's my latest attorney as of Oct 07 ... and I will specify she made the divorce nasty, she cheated, she left me with the kids one day when I was not home and would not say where her or the kids moved to .. when I did find out I couldn't go to the house ... or the police was called for trespassing ... she tells the kids all kinds of stories .. how i kicked them ... did not come visit them .. did not do anything for them or whatever .. at that time the kids were too young .. and I'm not sure if at this point they could even remember really what did happen or just what they are used to hearing from her ..

You definatley need to hire an attorney however, IMO.

In the meantime, your wife is correct. Just keep trying to write, call, and keep in touch as much as possible.

again thanks everyone for the help .. i've emailed my lawyer again today .. her lawyer wants all the emails and telephone records to prove my latest contempt charges against my ex .. I feel as though if I give them to her I'm only helping her have the oppurtunity to build a defense in the next four months, as far as proof anyone I talk to to get info on her or the kids simply clams up as if they are afraid she will sue if they say anything so I really don't have much proof other than my word .. which up to now hasn't amounted to much


ctg

According to this site: http://www.callcorder.com/phone-recording-law-america.htm both Ohio and Texas are one party states (you don't have to notify the other person that you are recording the call) for telephone recording. Get a recorder and the next time you go to court, play a conversation like the ones that you describe here and then let her twist in the wind to defend her actions.