I will try to make this as short as possible...

My ex and I have a typical joint custody arrangement. I have physical custody and everything is standard guidelines, child support and so on. I know with this type of custody, typically both parents have say in the child's religious practices and such.

My problem is that dad has never been a religious person, in fact he calls himself an atheist. I suppose that is a religion, no offense to anyone. I am a Christian and have been all of my life. My children have been raised with Christian beliefs and recently started attending a church with my sister. I do not go every week but try to go as often as possible. My ex, on the other hand, has not stepped foot in a church since he was a child and is very derogatory towards the Christian belief. The problem that we have run into is that he does not want to allow my children to participate in church functions or Sunday service when it is his visitation weekend. I would not have a problem with this if he was taking part in some kind of religion and had his own things to do. However, that is not the case. Also, I feel that this is just to spite my sister and my family, not for the best interest of the children. He also tries to bribe them and say that if they don't go then they can do something fun.

My children are 12 & 10 and I feel are old enough to have an opinion and be heard. They are upset that their father is doing this. They don't want to go to see him if he is going to keep them from going to their church. My question is what can I do about this? Can he restrict them like that when he does not practice a religion at all? I just don't feel that this is fair to my daughters. My youngest asked me how she was supposed to be a member of this church if she was not allowed to go to the church functions. Please help me here! The only people hurt by this are my daughters.

You can't do a thing.

You can not force someone to go to church.

You knew he was not a church goer when you married and had children with him.

If you couldn't change him during the marriage, you certainly aren't going to do it now.

And, before you ask, no, you cannot allow the children to ignore visitations with Dad because he doesn't take them to church.

I am not asking him to go, just allow my daughters to. I really never thought it would be this much of an issue.

When the kids are with him, they follow his rules.

How would you like it if he tried to force you to KEEP the girls from church?

I just did some of my own research that says that in a disagreement in a custody situation like ours, I do have final say on religion and such. I noticed that your posts indicate that you are not and have never been an attorney. No offense but I came here for real legal advice. Thanks anyway!

I just did some of my own research that says that in a disagreement in a custody situation like ours, I do have final say on religion and such. I noticed that your posts indicate that you are not and have never been an attorney. No offense but I came here for real legal advice. Thanks anyway!

Offense taken.

Unless you have sole and full custody of the children, the NCP has rights as well as you do.

You can say what religion the children practice... IN YOUR HOME... but cannot force your ex to take them to church against his wishes.

Present your research.

Lastly, lawyers typically charge (in 6 minute increments, no less) for their counsel. If you wanted a lawyer to answer your questions, pay one. Otherwise, feel free to ask for a refund on your way out.

I know how much a lawyer charges...hence why I am here. Notice my name has senior member under it too so I know that means nothing on here.

Again, I am not asking him to go nor am I asking him to take them. I would provide the transportation to and from. His lazy *** has to do nothing other than not be a complete and total jerk! I am not here to argue with people and have come across many like you on this site. Please do not clog my thread with a bunch of arguing.

Also, I THOUGHT that the sole purpose of the courts being involved was to make sure that things happened in the best interest of the child. If my children want to go to church then they should be able to. They have rights too!!

I don't have to present anything to you. Now please leave me alone!

You don't know my situation, why or when I married him, so please don't judge. If you are going to respond on here it should not be based on your opinion but straight facts...you present me with your research....

I do not have a copy of your custody order. You do.

Look very carefully for the part where it says you get to 1) choose if the children go to church; 2) what church they go to; and 3) tell your ex to take the children to church during his visitation because you wish it to be so.

I am not trying to be difficult, but you don't seem to understand that yours is not the only opinion that matters here. Your ex's opinion has exactly as much weight in the children's raising as yours.

You apparently came here to find something legal to wave under your ex's nose that would make him take the children to church. There is nothing illegal about not going to church.

Therefore, the only binding legal governence here would be in your custody order... which you should show to an attorney.

I ask again, however. How would you feel if he thought you were indoctrinating his children and wanted to take YOU to court to PREVENT you from taking them to church?

He has made his postion clear. The children's wishes have, fortunately or unfortunately, nothing to do with this.

Before you say it... Yes, I know you are going to take them to church... however, he has a right to say "No, I don't want to lose my kids for X hours during my visitation time."

In Johns v. Johns, 53 Ark. App. 90, 918 S.W. 2d 728 (1996), an Arkansas court deferred to the custodial parent's wishes. In this case, the father complained that the mother, who had legal and physical custody of the children, was preventing him from visiting with his kids. The mother said she was refusing visits because he didn't take the kids to church and Sunday school. The trial court ordered Mr. Johns to bring the kids to church. The father appealed. The appellate court agreed with the trial court, holding that because the mother was the custodial parent, her desire that the kids attend church each week was paramount.

Arkansas rulings 10 years ago will not help.

The courts today will see only that the father will lose out on X hours during his visitation and suggest that you then offer him more visitation in return if you wish to take those hours from him.

Such as extra time through the week or keeping them later but he is just being difficult? That is the situation here. I have offered solution after solution and he is not going to agree to anything...

He really doesn't have to agree to anything. You admit yourself that the church is a new thing. The children weren't engrained in a specific ritual before the visitation order was drawn up.

I've only seen this issue work when the children have been attending a specific church since birth and have always taken part in that particular set of rituals.

His time is his time.

Thank you.

Such as extra time through the week or keeping them later but he is just being difficult? That is the situation here. I have offered solution after solution and he is not going to agree to anything...

Wait a minute....

I thought the ex was voluntarily giving up custody of the children to your current husband?

Ok, I went back and read that too. Sounds like he decided not to go along with it.

In Johns v. Johns, 53 Ark. App. 90, 918 S.W. 2d 728 (1996), an Arkansas court deferred to the custodial parent's wishes. In this case, the father complained that the mother, who had legal and physical custody of the children, was preventing him from visiting with his kids. The mother said she was refusing visits because he didn't take the kids to church and Sunday school. The trial court ordered Mr. Johns to bring the kids to church. The father appealed. The appellate court agreed with the trial court, holding that because the mother was the custodial parent, her desire that the kids attend church each week was paramount.

If you had quoted the REST of that website (www.nolo.com), you would have seen that the issue isn't quite as black and white....

Zummo v. Zummo: Joint legal custody equals two religions
In Zummo v. Zummo, 394 Pa. Super. 30, 574 A.2d 1130 (1990), the divorcing couple's dispute about the religious upbringing of their children was resolved by ordering the father to take the children to Jewish services (the mother's religion) and also allowing him to bring the children to Catholic services (his religion). The court believed that, because the couple shared joint legal custody, they each had the right to instill religious beliefs in their kids.

Or, in your case, no religion at all.

Before jumping back into court, might I suggest some sort of mediation? You might be able to resolve this without expensive court costs. Even if he is intentionally trying to be difficult, he might be able to see the cost benefit of not going back to court.

Also, check your Joint Parenting agreement. There should be a section that deals with Dispute Resolution. Mediation might be a requirement there. You might be able to use that to force him into mediation. There should also be some sort of final decision power granted to one or the other. Usually it is the custodial parent. You will still not be able to force him to take the kids to church during his visitation, but again it might be a tool to use to get him to compromise or attend mediation.

i do not go to church- my ex is a southern baptist. he was not when we were together (new wife thing). when he has my children they are in church all of the time(yes, they enjoy going when they are with him cause of their friends)- learning things I do not agree with and that he did not agree with when we were together. I actively go against the things they are learning in their church when they are with me. When they are old enough (and they are 13 and 10) they can can decide for themselves- I expose them to my beliefs and he to his beliefs. I would absolutely GO NUTS if he thought for even 1 minute he could come get them on MY time and teach them things I don't agree with. If that was the case, I would go to his house and keep them out of church on his days.
You have no right to say they have to go someplace on his time unless you are willing to allow him the same exact right

sorry- religion is a touchy subject to me, especially when 1 parent tries to force their beliefs

My whole family has multiple beliefs, I attended 3 different churches as a child. Sometimes on the same Sunday even though my father was against organized religion. He was very christian, but against following a herd.

When I got older, it was clear to me what was more aligned with my own beliefs.

Your children will just soak it all in and end up doing their own thing when they grow up anyway. All you can do is feed them the best information you can and hope for the best.

Okay, you are the same woman that was outraged that he was allowing them to be 'subjected' to Wicca, correct? Well the same answer applies that you were given before.

He gets to do what he wants on HIS TIME. If that means that he takes them to worship at the Church of God's Green Acres (aka: the golf course for a spiritual round of 18 holes) then that's what he gets to do. You don't get to disrupt his time for anything, not even when you are trying to use your faith as an excuse to get your way. If he doesn't want them to go to church on his weekends, then I suggest you teach your kids that they don't have to be physically present in the church to practice their faith/religion.

Christianity is much more than being sure you and your kids are in their pews in time for the morning service every weekend. Christianity is NOT about using your faith to force your ex to comply with YOUR wishes. I'm pretty sure that Jesus wants the kids to spend time with their father, too.

Ahhh...there....ask yourself....What would Jesus do? Last I checked, he didn't go to church in a building every Sunday morning, either. He practiced his faith every breathing moment of his life.

I just did some of my own research that says that in a disagreement in a custody situation like ours, I do have final say on religion and such. I noticed that your posts indicate that you are not and have never been an attorney. No offense but I came here for real legal advice. Thanks anyway!

Guess what YOU CANNOT dictate what he does on his time. You can decide that the children are raised Christian on your time but NOT on his. Nor cna you state that he has to allow them to go to church during his weekends. Do you want to argue MY qualifications? If you try to force the issue I assure you I am correct and you are wrong.

In Johns v. Johns, 53 Ark. App. 90, 918 S.W. 2d 728 (1996), an Arkansas court deferred to the custodial parent's wishes. In this case, the father complained that the mother, who had legal and physical custody of the children, was preventing him from visiting with his kids. The mother said she was refusing visits because he didn't take the kids to church and Sunday school. The trial court ordered Mr. Johns to bring the kids to church. The father appealed. The appellate court agreed with the trial court, holding that because the mother was the custodial parent, her desire that the kids attend church each week was paramount.

Hey Jen...Hate to break it to you...but you're not in Arkansas anymore...;)

If you want to look up case law to support your case it will have to be CURRENT and for your actual state.

Even in cases where one parent has been granted the right to determine sole religion (which are very far and few between) YOU would not meet the qualifications and that right would STILL not grant one parent the right to curtail or interupt visitation in persuit of religious activities. You have JOINT custody. That means that DAD has just as much right to determine the child's religious instruction as you do. Therefore, if you think a court will order him to comply with your attempt at manipulation, expect the court to grant him the same rights.:rolleyes:


My ex and I have a typical joint custody arrangement.