To make a long story short, After 20 yrs of being fairly happily
married I had a 3 month long emotional affair with a woman in a
different city. It became physical just last month, but we mutually
decided to break it off recently because we saw no future in it. It
would be fair to say that I still have strong feelings for her, and
she, I. Now it started for all the usual reasons, felling lonely and
neglected, but I certainly don't use that as an excuse.

My question is should I tell my wife? I don't think there is a chance
she would find out, and it wouldn't be to relieve my own guilt. I
just feel after months of doing the wrong thing, telling her would be
the right thing. We have two teenage children with whom I am a very
active father. I know what I did was unforgivable, but i just think
she should know, I would want to.

Mr_sbr wrote: To make a long story short, After 20 yrs of being fairly happily married I had a 3 month long emotional affair with a woman in a different city. It became physical just last month, but we mutually decided to break it off recently because we saw no future in it. It would be fair to say that I still have strong feelings for her, and she, I. Now it started for all the usual reasons, felling lonely and neglected, but I certainly don't use that as an excuse. My question is should I tell my wife? I don't think there is a chance she would find out, and it wouldn't be to relieve my own guilt. I just feel after months of doing the wrong thing, telling her would be the right thing. We have two teenage children with whom I am a very active father. I know what I did was unforgivable, but i just think she should know, I would want to.

Get professional advice :P I wouldn't want to be you and tell her
without someone to protect me from being shot.

mrsbr_175@hotmail.com (Mr_sbr) writes:
To make a long story short, After 20 yrs of being fairly happily married I had a 3 month long emotional affair with a woman in a different city. It became physical just last month, but we mutually decided to break it off recently because we saw no future in it. It would be fair to say that I still have strong feelings for her, and she, I. Now it started for all the usual reasons, felling lonely and neglected, but I certainly don't use that as an excuse. My question is should I tell my wife? I don't think there is a chance she would find out, and it wouldn't be to relieve my own guilt. I just feel after months of doing the wrong thing, telling her would be the right thing.

What would be right about it? I'm not disagreeing with you, but I'm
wondering what your motive is.
We have two teenage children with whom I am a very active father. I know what I did was unforgivable, but i just think she should know, I would want to.

Apart from whether you tell her or not, the right thing to do for the
long-term future is to address the state of your marriage. If you (as
a couple) don't know how to do that alone, then go get marriage
counseling!

Doug

If I were in your shoes, which I try very hard not to be, I would not
confeess. Despite that, I would become very contrite and make every
effort possible to make up for this wrongdoing and shower your wife
with attention, thankfulness, love, understanding etc,and also never
sleep around again.

Confession, as such, is not going to help matters.

i

Mr_sbr wrote:
..
| |
| | My question is should I tell my wife? I don't think there is a
| | chance she would find out, and it wouldn't be to relieve my own
| | guilt. I just feel after months of doing the wrong thing, telling
| | her would be the right thing. We have two teenage children with
| | whom I am a very active father. I know what I did was
| | unforgivable, but i just think she should know, I would want to.

You absolutely should NOT tell her. Telling her would be, no matter how you
view it, an effort to assuage your own guilt. You WANT somebody to yell at
you, go see a therapist who might oblige. Telling your wife simply adds
hurt and has no benefit.

You think you'd want to know? Maybe yes, maybe no. What would you do if
you found your wife had fallen for somebody and had until recently been
having an affair? Would you be more attentive to her? I doubt it. I think
you'd simply be angry and hurt. So would she be if you told.

Your punishment is to have to bear this failing alone. The question is
whether you're adult enough to just suck it up, accept that punishment, and
then go on to do your best building a good marriage.

"Mr_sbr" <mrsbr_175@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:659eb625.0410191254.6cc17c4e@posting.google.c om... To make a long story short, After 20 yrs of being fairly happily married I had a 3 month long emotional affair with a woman in a different city. It became physical just last month, but we mutually decided to break it off recently because we saw no future in it. It would be fair to say that I still have strong feelings for her, and she, I. Now it started for all the usual reasons, felling lonely and neglected, but I certainly don't use that as an excuse. My question is should I tell my wife? I don't think there is a chance she would find out, and it wouldn't be to relieve my own guilt. I just feel after months of doing the wrong thing, telling her would be the right thing. We have two teenage children with whom I am a very active father. I know what I did was unforgivable, but i just think she should know, I would want to.

Don't be so sure she won't find out. Stuff like this is *very* hard to keep
a secret for years and years. And by not telling, you make it *worse* when
she finds out later.

On 19 Oct 2004 22:03:00 GMT, Ignoramus12052
<ignoramus12052@NOSPAM.12052.invalid> wrote:
If I were in your shoes, which I try very hard not to be, I would notconfeess. Despite that, I would become very contrite and make everyeffort possible to make up for this wrongdoing and shower your wifewith attention, thankfulness, love, understanding etc,and also neversleep around again.

That's the sure way to tell her!! She'd know in a second if he started
doing all that out of nowhere. Act contrite - for what, she'd
wonder... new thankfulness and showering attention and understanding -
any woman would start rumaging around the guy's email or wallet or
whatever for signs of the other woman, ask friends, ask him. She'd
know for sure.

Sounds like he should address their problems honestly, in order to
solve them. And stop speaking to that other woman! I know you are
because how else would you know she still has feelings for you?
You'll only get over her if you stop speaking to her; she's poison to
your marriage. You'll lose your wife to a woman willing to be with a
lonely married man.
Confession, as such, is not going to help matters.i

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:44:59 GMT, Amy <anon@anon.com> wrote: On 19 Oct 2004 22:03:00 GMT, Ignoramus12052<ignoramus12052@NOSPAM.12052.invalid> wrote:If I were in your shoes, which I try very hard not to be, I would notconfeess. Despite that, I would become very contrite and make everyeffort possible to make up for this wrongdoing and shower your wifewith attention, thankfulness, love, understanding etc,and also neversleep around again. That's the sure way to tell her!! She'd know in a second if he started doing all that out of nowhere. Act contrite - for what, she'd wonder... new thankfulness and showering attention and understanding - any woman would start rumaging around the guy's email or wallet or whatever for signs of the other woman, ask friends, ask him. She'd know for sure.

I disagree with your opinion. People do change their behavior for many
reasons, not only due to guilt. He does not have to ask like a guilty
puppy, all he needs to do is be a good husband.
Sounds like he should address their problems honestly, in order to solve them. And stop speaking to that other woman! I know you are because how else would you know she still has feelings for you? You'll only get over her if you stop speaking to her; she's poison to your marriage. You'll lose your wife to a woman willing to be with a lonely married man.

I agree with that.

i
Confession, as such, is not going to help matters.i


--

Mr_sbr wrote: To make a long story short, After 20 yrs of being fairly happily married I had a 3 month long emotional affair with a woman in a different city. It became physical just last month, but we mutually decided to break it off recently because we saw no future in it. It would be fair to say that I still have strong feelings for her, and she, I. Now it started for all the usual reasons, felling lonely and neglected, but I certainly don't use that as an excuse. My question is should I tell my wife? I don't think there is a chance she would find out, and it wouldn't be to relieve my own guilt. I just feel after months of doing the wrong thing, telling her would be the right thing. We have two teenage children with whom I am a very active father. I know what I did was unforgivable, but i just think she should know, I would want to.

Well, I come at this from a slightly different angle than others
seem to. Having been in your wife's position (my husband had an
emotional then physical affair, but quite a bit longer than yours),
one of the sources of my anger was that my husband acted like the
decision about *our* marriage was *his* alone to make. After his
affair became known and we were in the Twilight Zone of 'Divorce
or try and work it out', at times I was almost incoherent with
rage at him keeping such a secret about himself and the state of
our marriage from me. Like I didn't have the right to know what
kind of man I was married to. Like I didn't have the right to
make my own decision as to whether to stay married to him or not.

There's always the chance (a pretty high chance, too) that your
wife will decide to divorce you for your affair if you tell her.
Your betrayal of her and your wedding vows is/was something that
is over now and you will never repeat <I would hope>. But your
keeping that information from your wife will be an on-going betrayal
for the rest of your and her life.

Tracey

"Mr_sbr" <mrsbr_175@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:659eb625.0410191254.6cc17c4e@posting.google.c om... To make a long story short, After 20 yrs of being fairly happily married I had a 3 month long emotional affair with a woman in a different city. It became physical just last month, but we mutually decided to break it off recently because we saw no future in it. It would be fair to say that I still have strong feelings for her, and she, I. Now it started for all the usual reasons, felling lonely and neglected, but I certainly don't use that as an excuse. My question is should I tell my wife? I don't think there is a chance she would find out, and it wouldn't be to relieve my own guilt. I just feel after months of doing the wrong thing, telling her would be the right thing. We have two teenage children with whom I am a very active father. I know what I did was unforgivable, but i just think she should know, I would want to.

And what would that accomplish? You are a selfish man who only thinks of
himself. By telling her, you would feel "better" and she would be
devastated. It would give you a nice "closure" at her expense. The "right
thing" would have been not to cheat on her....so now you feel
bad...GOOD...you should feel bad. Instead of breaking her heart, why don't
you just try making it up to her by giving her more respect from now on and
talking to her about the fact that you feel lonely and neglected. Put 50%
of the effort you put forth in your affair into recapturing what you've lost
in the marriage and the dividends will roll in.

Buster Van Buren
www.dearbuster.com
www.dearbuster.blogspot.com
buster@dearbuster.com

I appreciate the insight from all who answered, it certainly gives me
a much needed viewpoint other than my own. One of the earlier post
asked me about my real motive, and Tracy, you nailed it best. I know
this may seem laughable to some of you, but I have always tried to be
the best husband posible and that is what my wife has to judge me by.
In order for her to make an informed decision as to whether or not to
continue with me, she should know the whole picture. This seems fair
to me.

I really do think the easy way to go would to be silent. It would
save everyone invloved a lot of pain, save me a lot of scorn, and as I
said let a fairly happy marrage continue. As far as guilt, I could
probably deal with it in a way to not overwhelm me(that statement
alone probably makes me a bigger A-hole in most of your eyes). But
after months of doing the wrong thing, I just wonder if telling her
would be the start of doing the right thing, no matter what the
ramifications to myself. Don't get me wrong it bothers me when I
think about the ramifications to every one else (wife, kids, family
and friends), but is protecting them a good enough reason not to do
what I'm starting to think whould be the right thing.....telling her.
Thank you again for your insight, it is really appreciated.

Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote in message news:<4175D274.90005@aol.com>... Mr_sbr wrote: To make a long story short, After 20 yrs of being fairly happily married I had a 3 month long emotional affair with a woman in a different city. It became physical just last month, but we mutually decided to break it off recently because we saw no future in it. It would be fair to say that I still have strong feelings for her, and she, I. Now it started for all the usual reasons, felling lonely and neglected, but I certainly don't use that as an excuse. My question is should I tell my wife? I don't think there is a chance she would find out, and it wouldn't be to relieve my own guilt. I just feel after months of doing the wrong thing, telling her would be the right thing. We have two teenage children with whom I am a very active father. I know what I did was unforgivable, but i just think she should know, I would want to. Well, I come at this from a slightly different angle than others seem to. Having been in your wife's position (my husband had an emotional then physical affair, but quite a bit longer than yours), one of the sources of my anger was that my husband acted like the decision about *our* marriage was *his* alone to make. After his affair became known and we were in the Twilight Zone of 'Divorce or try and work it out', at times I was almost incoherent with rage at him keeping such a secret about himself and the state of our marriage from me. Like I didn't have the right to know what kind of man I was married to. Like I didn't have the right to make my own decision as to whether to stay married to him or not. There's always the chance (a pretty high chance, too) that your wife will decide to divorce you for your affair if you tell her. Your betrayal of her and your wedding vows is/was something that is over now and you will never repeat <I would hope>. But your keeping that information from your wife will be an on-going betrayal for the rest of your and her life. Tracey

"Mr_sbr" <mrsbr_175@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:659eb625.0410200348.db846b8@posting.google.co m...I appreciate the insight from all who answered, it certainly gives me a much needed viewpoint other than my own. One of the earlier post asked me about my real motive, and Tracy, you nailed it best. I know this may seem laughable to some of you, but I have always tried to be the best husband posible and that is what my wife has to judge me by. In order for her to make an informed decision as to whether or not to continue with me, she should know the whole picture. This seems fair to me. I really do think the easy way to go would to be silent. It would save everyone invloved a lot of pain, save me a lot of scorn, and as I said let a fairly happy marrage continue. As far as guilt, I could probably deal with it in a way to not overwhelm me(that statement alone probably makes me a bigger A-hole in most of your eyes). But after months of doing the wrong thing, I just wonder if telling her would be the start of doing the right thing, no matter what the ramifications to myself. Don't get me wrong it bothers me when I think about the ramifications to every one else (wife, kids, family and friends), but is protecting them a good enough reason not to do what I'm starting to think whould be the right thing.....telling her. Thank you again for your insight, it is really appreciated.

I'm going to veer off the track and climb out of a window here (and just a
warning: I bypassed your original post, so I'm going off of context here).

From what I understand, you had a very short term affair that was mostly
emotional, and was physical for a month, tops.

Based on that, you have three options as I see them. You can take the guys'
route and not tell her period, which I think is about as scumbag wrong as
you can get. You can take the gals' route and tell her right off, and deal
with the ensuing fallout.

Or my third option...

I believe that an affair in *most cases* isn't the issue itself, I believe
it's symptomatic of an underlying problem in the marriage. And I say this as
a kid whose father had at least three or four affairs that *I* can track by
the time I was 17 (and my mother could tell more), and who has watched other
people have affairs and go through counseling successfully, realize the
marriage was completely wrong and divorce or go through counseling and
successfully repair the marriage.

My thinking is that you need to go in to see your family doc, get tested for
some STDs. If you come up positive, do not pass go and instead go directly
to your wife to tell her-and be prepared to simply hand her your ***. If you
do not come up positive, I think it might be time to wander into a
counselor's office, figure out what it was that tempted you to do this
(because you've mentioned even above that this is a happy, long term
marriage), and once you've figured it out, bring her into it. I think
telling your wife too soon will cause you two to focus on *just* the affair,
and not on any underlying problems. Or an alternative to that-once you find
out you're negative and you have a counselor's appointment lined up, then
you can tell her that in conjuction with the affair. She may very well be
tempted to come in with you.

Hope it works for the best.

Jess

"Mr_sbr" <mrsbr_175@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:659eb625.0410191254.6cc17c4e@posting.google.c om... To make a long story short, After 20 yrs of being fairly happily married I had a 3 month long emotional affair with a woman in a different city. It became physical just last month, but we mutually decided to break it off recently because we saw no future in it. It would be fair to say that I still have strong feelings for her, and she, I. Now it started for all the usual reasons, felling lonely and neglected, but I certainly don't use that as an excuse. My question is should I tell my wife? I don't think there is a chance she would find out, and it wouldn't be to relieve my own guilt. I just feel after months of doing the wrong thing, telling her would be the right thing. We have two teenage children with whom I am a very active father. I know what I did was unforgivable, but i just think she should know, I would want to.

I was in the same situation as you are, seven years ago. We'd been married
for ten years at the time. The guilt was eating me alive, I was drinking
too much, unable to sleep, depressed, etc. I drank a bottle of rum one night
one night and confessed.
My husband freaked out. Got a gun, waved it around, threatened to kill
himself (and the other guy), and then told EVERYONE. All of our families,
all of our friends, his employees (he owned a business at the time), our
family physician, the guy on the street. He took our children (oh, he told
the children too) and stayed with his sister for a week. His family all
told him to file for divorce, but he came back, and now, we're doing well.
Things are better now , because we addressed the problems that led me to
stray, but there was a lot of fallout for several years. Are you prepared to
handle it? Many times I think things would have been better if I sucked it
up and never said anything.

FakeName wrote: Many times I think things would have been better if I sucked it up and never said anything.

I'm not sure why you think things would have been better if you
had sucked it up. Sounds like your issues would have never been
addressed (or addressed much later), you were on the path to
alcoholism and depression which had a high possibility of ruining
your marriage and you weren't dealing with the guilt well on your
own.

Compare it to the fact that now you're doing well, things are
better in your marriage and you addressed the problems. Doesn't
sound as if things would have better if you had kept quiet to
me.

Tracey

Mr_sbr wrote: I appreciate the insight from all who answered, it certainly gives me a much needed viewpoint other than my own. One of the earlier post asked me about my real motive, and Tracy, you nailed it best. I know this may seem laughable to some of you, but I have always tried to be the best husband posible and that is what my wife has to judge me by. In order for her to make an informed decision as to whether or not to continue with me, she should know the whole picture. This seems fair to me. I really do think the easy way to go would to be silent. It would save everyone invloved a lot of pain, save me a lot of scorn, and as I said let a fairly happy marrage continue. As far as guilt, I could probably deal with it in a way to not overwhelm me(that statement alone probably makes me a bigger A-hole in most of your eyes). But after months of doing the wrong thing, I just wonder if telling her would be the start of doing the right thing, no matter what the ramifications to myself. Don't get me wrong it bothers me when I think about the ramifications to every one else (wife, kids, family and friends), but is protecting them a good enough reason not to do what I'm starting to think whould be the right thing.....telling her. Thank you again for your insight, it is really appreciated. Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote in message news:<4175D274.90005@aol.com>...Mr_sbr wrote:To make a long story short, After 20 yrs of being fairly happilymarried I had a 3 month long emotional affair with a woman in adifferent city. It became physical just last month, but we mutuallydecided to break it off recently because we saw no future in it. Itwould be fair to say that I still have strong feelings for her, andshe, I. Now it started for all the usual reasons, felling lonely andneglected, but I certainly don't use that as an excuse.My question is should I tell my wife? I don't think there is a chanceshe would find out, and it wouldn't be to relieve my own guilt. Ijust feel after months of doing the wrong thing, telling her would bethe right thing. We have two teenage children with whom I am a veryactive father. I know what I did was unforgivable, but i just thinkshe should know, I would want to.Well, I come at this from a slightly different angle than othersseem to. Having been in your wife's position (my husband had anemotional then physical affair, but quite a bit longer than yours),one of the sources of my anger was that my husband acted like thedecision about *our* marriage was *his* alone to make. After hisaffair became known and we were in the Twilight Zone of 'Divorceor try and work it out', at times I was almost incoherent withrage at him keeping such a secret about himself and the state ofour marriage from me. Like I didn't have the right to know whatkind of man I was married to. Like I didn't have the right tomake my own decision as to whether to stay married to him or not.There's always the chance (a pretty high chance, too) that yourwife will decide to divorce you for your affair if you tell her.Your betrayal of her and your wedding vows is/was something thatis over now and you will never repeat <I would hope>. But yourkeeping that information from your wife will be an on-going betrayalfor the rest of your and her life.Tracey

"The Watsons" <warpedsystems@dcrc.net> writes:
I'm going to veer off the track and climb out of a window here (and just a warning: I bypassed your original post, so I'm going off of context here). From what I understand, you had a very short term affair that was mostly emotional, and was physical for a month, tops. Based on that, you have three options as I see them. You can take the guys' route and not tell her period, which I think is about as scumbag wrong as you can get. You can take the gals' route and tell her right off, and deal with the ensuing fallout.

I mentioned this in the context of jen's post too, but I think only 2
out of 5 men posting on this suggested that he shouldn't tell.

And only about half of the women posting suggested unambiguously that
he should.

So I'm not seeing a "guys' route" and a "gals' route" here myself!


As far as your post, I agree with what I took to be the spirit of it,
which is that dealing with the affair as well as possible and working
on improving the OP's marriage is the real priority, not whether to
"tell" or not.

And, jumping to the hypothetical, if it was me I'd "tell." But then I
wouldn't have had the secret in the first place since if I was going
to sleep with someone else, I wouldn't do it without my wife's
knowledge.

Doug

Mr_sbr wrote: I appreciate the insight from all who answered, it certainly gives me a much needed viewpoint other than my own. One of the earlier post asked me about my real motive, and Tracy, you nailed it best. I know this may seem laughable to some of you, but I have always tried to be the best husband posible and that is what my wife has to judge me by. In order for her to make an informed decision as to whether or not to continue with me, she should know the whole picture. This seems fair to me.

I don't think it's laughable. I love my husband for who he is, not
for who I think he is or for some facade that he's put up for me to
love. In fact, looking back, the first year we were married, that's
what I loved, a facade. I know so much more about my husband now
and, while there are things that I don't totally agree with and things
that drive me crazy, it's easier for me to love the imperfect man
that he is than the perfect man he tried to be.
I really do think the easy way to go would to be silent. It would save everyone invloved a lot of pain, save me a lot of scorn, and as I said let a fairly happy marrage continue.

As you said, it's the easy way.
As far as guilt, I could probably deal with it in a way to not overwhelm me(that statement alone probably makes me a bigger A-hole in most of your eyes).

I don't think that. I doubt if you'll find many people who haven't
had to deal with guild in a way to not overwhelm themselves. Doesn't
make them a-holes, just makes them people who are trying to live
their lives in a productive way rather than a destructive way.
But after months of doing the wrong thing, I just wonder if telling her would be the start of doing the right thing, no matter what the ramifications to myself.

Well, IMO, the best way to end a lie is to tell the truth.
Don't get me wrong it bothers me when I think about the ramifications to every one else (wife, kids, family and friends), but is protecting them a good enough reason not to do what I'm starting to think whould be the right thing.....telling her. Thank you again for your insight, it is really appreciated.

I don't know if protecting them is a good enough reason not to tell.
I think it's very subjective and a 'one size fits all' answer won't
do. The issue, the person, how it will affect them, whether it's
really any of their business or not, all sorts of things will affect
my decision when it comes to telling someone something or not. On
this particular issue, though, IMO, it most definitely is your
wife's business.

Another part of this, for me at least, is not wanting to be seen
as something that I'm not. I couldn't go through life being seen
as the totally faithful wife when I haven't been. (No, this is not
a confession. :P )I want to be seen as I am and if my husband doesn't
love me for who I am, then the love would feel fake somehow.

Tracey

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:yslle1e1i8.fsf@ethel.the.log... I mentioned this in the context of jen's post too, but I think only 2 out of 5 men posting on this suggested that he shouldn't tell.

I originally skipped the thread and then came back to it for some reason; I
got the impression from the post I did pay attention to that it was a pretty
even split.
As far as your post, I agree with what I took to be the spirit of it, which is that dealing with the affair as well as possible and working on improving the OP's marriage is the real priority, not whether to "tell" or not. And, jumping to the hypothetical, if it was me I'd "tell." But then I wouldn't have had the secret in the first place since if I was going to sleep with someone else, I wouldn't do it without my wife's knowledge.

Same here, and there wouldn't be the issue of an STD because there would
have been protection all the way around. But that's just me being crazy, I
guess. And there's no more coffee left.

Damn. ;)

Jess

Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com> writes:

(snip)
I don't know if protecting them is a good enough reason not to tell. I think it's very subjective and a 'one size fits all' answer won't do. The issue, the person, how it will affect them, whether it's really any of their business or not, all sorts of things will affect my decision when it comes to telling someone something or not. On this particular issue, though, IMO, it most definitely is your wife's business.

I like every sentence in this paragraph.

(snip)

Mr_sbr <mrsbr_175@hotmail.com> wrote:
I know what I did was unforgivable, but i just think she should know, I would want to.

I do see why so many people say keep it to yourself. But one problem I
always see is what does that do to the rest of your lives together? You
have a big secret you have to keep. And the nature of a secret is that
a little part of you has to always be guarding it. There are things you
can't talk about; things you have to steer conversations away from.
Your marriage already had big problems (or you wouldn't have had an
affair) and adding this to it can only make it more isolated and less
emotionally intimate.

The other big problem I see is the one Tracy described so well - the
unfairness of deciding for another person what they get to know about
their spouse and what decision they get to make.

One last point - you say she won't find out. I wouldn't be so sure
about that. Things do get found out. Also, she's known you for a long
time. She might well already know that *something* is wrong, that there
is *something* you are not telling her.

"The Watsons" <warpedsystems@dcrc.net> wrote in message
news:Y6vdd.5910$SW3.2603@fed1read01...
Based on that, you have three options as I see them. You can take the
guys' route and not tell her period, which I think is about as scumbag wrong as you can get. You can take the gals' route and tell her right off, and deal with the ensuing fallout.

Hey hey hey! Weren't there ladies here, aside from myself, who think
silence is the best choice? Please don't frame this in guys v. gals, b/c I
don't fit into the "gals" box here (if there is one).

Jennifer

"Jennifer in Maryland" <JenPam2003@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7YadnQfMB-YFk-rcRVn-3g@comcast.com... Hey hey hey! Weren't there ladies here, aside from myself, who think silence is the best choice? Please don't frame this in guys v. gals, b/c I don't fit into the "gals" box here (if there is one).

For horses. :p No clue-I was responding to one post deep in a thread I'd
mostly ignored. :)

Jess

Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote in message news:<4176A301.5040800@aol.com>... Mr_sbr wrote: I appreciate the insight from all who answered, it certainly gives me a much needed viewpoint other than my own. One of the earlier post asked me about my real motive, and Tracy, you nailed it best. I know this may seem laughable to some of you, but I have always tried to be the best husband posible and that is what my wife has to judge me by. In order for her to make an informed decision as to whether or not to continue with me, she should know the whole picture. This seems fair to me. I don't think it's laughable. I love my husband for who he is, not for who I think he is or for some facade that he's put up for me to love. In fact, looking back, the first year we were married, that's what I loved, a facade. I know so much more about my husband now and, while there are things that I don't totally agree with and things that drive me crazy, it's easier for me to love the imperfect man that he is than the perfect man he tried to be. I really do think the easy way to go would to be silent. It would save everyone invloved a lot of pain, save me a lot of scorn, and as I said let a fairly happy marrage continue. As you said, it's the easy way.As far as guilt, I could probably deal with it in a way to not overwhelm me(that statement alone probably makes me a bigger A-hole in most of your eyes). I don't think that. I doubt if you'll find many people who haven't had to deal with guild in a way to not overwhelm themselves. Doesn't make them a-holes, just makes them people who are trying to live their lives in a productive way rather than a destructive way.But after months of doing the wrong thing, I just wonder if telling her would be the start of doing the right thing, no matter what the ramifications to myself. Well, IMO, the best way to end a lie is to tell the truth.Don't get me wrong it bothers me when I think about the ramifications to every one else (wife, kids, family and friends), but is protecting them a good enough reason not to do what I'm starting to think whould be the right thing.....telling her. Thank you again for your insight, it is really appreciated. I don't know if protecting them is a good enough reason not to tell. I think it's very subjective and a 'one size fits all' answer won't do. The issue, the person, how it will affect them, whether it's really any of their business or not, all sorts of things will affect my decision when it comes to telling someone something or not. On this particular issue, though, IMO, it most definitely is your wife's business. Another part of this, for me at least, is not wanting to be seen as something that I'm not. I couldn't go through life being seen as the totally faithful wife when I haven't been. (No, this is not a confession. :P )I want to be seen as I am and if my husband doesn't love me for who I am, then the love would feel fake somehow. Tracey


Again, thanks for all of the responces, and Tracy I especially
appreciate your insight. Your responce seems to be similar to what I
have been thinking in the abstract, you have made it more concrete and
easier for me to see the right thing. While a few responces have been
pretty judgemental (believe it I know I deserve it), you have looked
beyond the crime and put a human face on the situation, thanks.

Also, for some of the other posters, I always used protection when
with the "other woman".

On 19 Oct 2004 13:54:36 -0700, mrsbr_175@hotmail.com (Mr_sbr) wrote:
To make a long story short, After 20 yrs of being fairly happilymarried I had a 3 month long emotional affair with a woman in adifferent city. It became physical just last month, but we mutuallydecided to break it off recently because we saw no future in it. Itwould be fair to say that I still have strong feelings for her, andshe, I. Now it started for all the usual reasons, felling lonely andneglected, but I certainly don't use that as an excuse.My question is should I tell my wife? I don't think there is a chanceshe would find out, and it wouldn't be to relieve my own guilt. Ijust feel after months of doing the wrong thing, telling her would bethe right thing. We have two teenage children with whom I am a veryactive father. I know what I did was unforgivable, but i just thinkshe should know, I would want to.

By telling her you hurt her twice. Once in the action and once by
telling her.

What could you possibly think will come of this confession other than
extreme pain for both your wife and your children? It serves no good
purpose.

Em
Be careful what you wish for....

mbjq@earthlink.net (Emma Anne) wrote in message news:<1glyqkq.1r93vgu62qgupN%mbjq@earthlink.net>... Mr_sbr <mrsbr_175@hotmail.com> wrote: I know what I did was unforgivable, but i just think she should know, I would want to. I do see why so many people say keep it to yourself. But one problem I always see is what does that do to the rest of your lives together? You have a big secret you have to keep. And the nature of a secret is that a little part of you has to always be guarding it.
There are things you can't talk about; things you have to steer conversations away from.

We've had these discussions before. There are things going on in my
head that
my wife is not privy too. I don't find that in itself a burden. This
particular secret would be tough to keep and I don't know how it
couldn't have some impact on the relationship, but I believe it would
subside over time. Whatever impact it would have would be far less
than revealing that I had an affair.
Your marriage already had big problems (or you wouldn't have had an affair) and adding this to it can only make it more isolated and less emotionally intimate. The other big problem I see is the one Tracy described so well - the unfairness of deciding for another person what they get to know about their spouse and what decision they get to make.

To me this is where a one time deal is much different than an ongoing
affair or series of affairs. I don't think one mistake at a weak
moment fundamentally changes who a person is, but it would sure stick
in the mind of the spouse if they were to find out. In statistics it
is common practice to throw out the "outliers". So in a way, Tracy's
point is another reason not to tell, because it will be difficult for
the spouse to look past this one incident and judge the person as a
whole.
One last point - you say she won't find out. I wouldn't be so sure about that. Things do get found out. Also, she's known you for a long time. She might well already know that *something* is wrong, that there is *something* you are not telling her.

She might find out and then he's got to deal with it. People say that
it's much worse if the person cheated on finds out from somebody else.
It's bad no matter who they find it out from. Cheating is a serious
breach of trust. Confessing doesn't restore that trust and may not
mean a damn thing to the person who was cheated on.

I can also imagine that there are plenty of situations where it would
never be found out.

Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote in message news:<41769B63.3030501@aol.com>... FakeName wrote: Many times I think things would have been better if I sucked it up and never said anything. I'm not sure why you think things would have been better if you had sucked it up. Sounds like your issues would have never been addressed (or addressed much later), you were on the path to alcoholism and depression which had a high possibility of ruining your marriage and you weren't dealing with the guilt well on your own. Compare it to the fact that now you're doing well, things are better in your marriage and you addressed the problems. Doesn't sound as if things would have better if you had kept quiet to me. Tracey

Yeah, that's how it worked out, but the man was waving a gun around,
it sounds like it could have easily turned out a _lot_ worse.

She was being eaten alive by the guilt, in which case she maybe she
had no choice but to tell. But what if you're able to get past the the
guilt? I honestly don't know whether I could get past the guilt or
not, but telling to me obviously puts the marriage at great risk. Not
telling has it own risks to be sure.

BottleRocket wrote: Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote in message news:<41769B63.3030501@aol.com>...FakeName wrote: Many times I think things would have been better if I sucked itup and never said anything.I'm not sure why you think things would have been better if youhad sucked it up. Sounds like your issues would have never beenaddressed (or addressed much later), you were on the path toalcoholism and depression which had a high possibility of ruiningyour marriage and you weren't dealing with the guilt well on yourown.Compare it to the fact that now you're doing well, things arebetter in your marriage and you addressed the problems. Doesn'tsound as if things would have better if you had kept quiet tome.Tracey Yeah, that's how it worked out, but the man was waving a gun around, it sounds like it could have easily turned out a _lot_ worse.

Would haves, could haves. This poster's situation didn't turn
tragic so to say that she shouldn't have told because it could
have turned out worse is a bit silly, I think.

Her overall situation is much better now than it was, from what
she has said. She went through a comparatively <in the larger
scheme of things> short period of ickiness and now is happy. To
say that she shouldn't have told so that period of ickiness never
happened is to ignore the fact that she's happy *now*. Especially
when you take into account her description of what her life was
like before she told.
She was being eaten alive by the guilt, in which case she maybe she had no choice but to tell. But what if you're able to get past the the guilt? I honestly don't know whether I could get past the guilt or not, but telling to me obviously puts the marriage at great risk. Not telling has it own risks to be sure.

Of course telling puts the marriage at great risk. Not telling puts
the marriage at great risk. Having an affair puts the marriage at
great risk. I don't see your point, really.

Look, I'm sort of a dabbler in legal shows. There's a recurrent
theme in them. A person does one thing that puts something in their
life at risk. They embezzle some money, they lose all of their
money gambling, they have an affair, they used to use drugs, etc.,
and, if that fact about them becomes public knowledge, then a part
of their life as they know it will be over. So, what then happens
is that that person takes some sort of steps to make sure that that
fact will not come out. They kill the person who knows, they burn
down a business so the records are lost, they do whatever it takes
to make sure that knowledge doesn't get out. At the end of the show,
what you see is that person is now headed to jail for a long time or
to deathrow when, if they had owned up to the original action, the
punishment or loss would have been much less. As a frequent watcher
of these shows, it makes no sense to me and it legally makes no sense
to compound the crimes in that way.

Now, I know that TV shows aren't directly applicable to real life
situations and comparing murdering someone so that your secret
doesn't become public knowledge isn't the same thing as telling
your spouse about an affair that you had but the concept of 'Don't
dig yourself in any deeper than you already are' is, IMO. Someone
has an affair. That's an action that puts their marriage at risk.
To then say that telling their spouse about the affair is putting
their marriage at risk is, IMO, ignoring the original risk-taking
and an attempt to justify keeping quiet. And I don't think it will
go very far if someone tells their spouse 'I didn't tell you because
I didn't want to lose you' 6 months, a year, five years, etc., down
the line.

I know that I have a little different spin on things than others
do because of my own experience. I guess being in a situation where
I had very important information about my husband and my marriage
kept from me for a long time has made me adamant that a person
shouldn't do that to their spouse.

Tracey

BottleRocket wrote:
But what if you're able to get past the the guilt?

Sorry, got interrupted and lost my train of thought. Hehe. :)

What if the cheating spouse is able to get past the guilt without
telling their spouse? To me, that's only relevant if you <generic>
are of the belief that your marriage is yours alone. I don't quite
understand how many people, here and out in the non-internet world,
will, OOH, go on and on about how marriage is a partnership but
then advocate treating marriage as if it's one person's alone to
decide about.

My husband got the shock of his life, I think, when, in one of our
early discussions I made the statement that he needed to decide if
he wanted to remain married to me AND I needed to decide if I wanted
to remain married to him. For some reason, he seemed to have ignored
the fact that he was not the only one who could choose to end our
marriage and seemed to think that whether our marriage continued or
not was his decision only.

Tracey

>BottleRocket wrote: But what if you're able to get past the the guilt?Sorry, got interrupted and lost my train of thought. Hehe. :)What if the cheating spouse is able to get past the guilt withouttelling their spouse? To me, that's only relevant if you <generic>are of the belief that your marriage is yours alone. I don't quiteunderstand how many people, here and out in the non-internet world,will, OOH, go on and on about how marriage is a partnership butthen advocate treating marriage as if it's one person's alone todecide about.My husband got the shock of his life, I think, when, in one of ourearly discussions I made the statement that he needed to decide ifhe wanted to remain married to me AND I needed to decide if I wantedto remain married to him. For some reason, he seemed to have ignoredthe fact that he was not the only one who could choose to end ourmarriage and seemed to think that whether our marriage continued ornot was his decision only.Tracey

Tracey, I guess what I hear people saying here is that they already have made
that decision -- that they wouldn't leave based on one indiscretion, no matter
what. That's a valid perspective, albeit one I don't share.

I did stay in a marriage where there was infidelity (as well as a whole host of
other issues), largely because I didn't want my kids to come from a broken
home.... and yes, because I didn't want a failed marriage. My ex did not tell
me; I found out on my own. His lack of honesty with me was one of the major
obstacles in our ever being able to put the marriage back together again. I
don't know if we could have ever made the marriage work. I do know that his
unwillingness to be honest with me prevented it from ever getting to the stage
of trying.

Sheila

BottleRocket wrote:
We've had these discussions before. There are things going on in my head that my wife is not privy too. I don't find that in itself a burden.

I don't babble every thought that passes through my head to my
husband either (although he might disagree with that :P ), and I'm sure
there are thoughts he has that he doesn't share with me. And, if I
knew them all, I'd probably be very grateful he doesn't share them
with me. But we're not talking about a random 'Man, that new man/
woman at work is HOT!' thought that passes through your head. My
husband knows that I find Keith Hamilton Cobb from 'Andromeda'
almost painfully attractive <especially when his hair was long.
Drool!! :P~> He doesn't know that, when we were having our troubles,
I found myself attracted to a co-worker/friend of his who would
occasionally come to our house. I dealt with that myself, I did
nothing that, in any way, violated our vows and there's no reason
for him to have known it then or now.
This particular secret would be tough to keep and I don't know how it couldn't have some impact on the relationship, but I believe it would subside over time.

I don't know. I, personally, don't believe it would subside for me.
Every time I got an anniversary card extolling my virtues as a wife
< :P > or heard my husband make a statement about how we were best
friends or the trust he had in me, etc., I would feel guilty all over
again.
Whatever impact it would have would be far less than revealing thatI had an affair.

I don't get this kind of thinking. 'I did something wrong but if
I tell someone about it, the consequences will be bad so I just
won't tell.' I get pretty angry when my children cover up something
they did and their punishment is consequently higher than it would
have been if they had just told us when it happened. I've seen
countless people get in much bigger trouble after they've done
something wrong when they didn't immediately 'fess up. I've had
quite a few instances in my own life where, if I had kept quiet,
I would have gotten slammed later on when the truth had came out
but because I spoke up right away, the consequences were much
less and I was even helped out of the trouble I got myself in.

My husband found out when he tried to break off the affair before
I ever knew about it, he couldn't break it off and nothing got
better between us. But when I knew what was going on, it suddenly
got lots easier for him to deal with what he needed to deal with.
He had me to back him up and give him support when he needed it.
It was hell on me, but it was impossible for him to do what he
needed to do without me knowing what was going on.

Your marriage already had big problems (or you wouldn't have had anaffair) and adding this to it can only make it more isolated and lessemotionally intimate.The other big problem I see is the one Tracy described so well - theunfairness of deciding for another person what they get to know abouttheir spouse and what decision they get to make. To me this is where a one time deal is much different than an ongoing affair or series of affairs. I don't think one mistake at a weak moment fundamentally changes who a person is, but it would sure stick in the mind of the spouse if they were to find out. In statistics it is common practice to throw out the "outliers". So in a way, Tracy's point is another reason not to tell, because it will be difficult for the spouse to look past this one incident and judge the person as a whole.

But, if someone doesn't tell, their spouse isn't able to judge them
as a whole person either. They're judging their spouse based on lies
and a facade. And, well, it's not anyone else's decision to make as
to how another person judges another. If I had chosen to judge my
husband as a liar and a cheat and a person I didn't want to remain
married to based on his affair, that's *my* decision to make. Not
one that he has the right to make for me.
One last point - you say she won't find out. I wouldn't be so sureabout that. Things do get found out. Also, she's known you for a longtime. She might well already know that *something* is wrong, that thereis *something* you are not telling her. She might find out and then he's got to deal with it. People say that it's much worse if the person cheated on finds out from somebody else. It's bad no matter who they find it out from. Cheating is a serious breach of trust. Confessing doesn't restore that trust and may not mean a damn thing to the person who was cheated on.

And that's a decision that *that person* gets to make. It's not mine
to make for you, it's not my husband's to make for me.
I can also imagine that there are plenty of situations where it would never be found out.

There are lots of things about me that not everyone knows. They have
no reason to know them. My interactions with them doesn't require that
they know them. My relationship with them doesn't require that they
know them. My spouse, OTOH, has a much larger area of 'need to know'
than everyone else.

Tracey

WhansaMi wrote: BottleRocket wrote: But what if you're able to get past the the guilt? Sorry, got interrupted and lost my train of thought. Hehe. :) What if the cheating spouse is able to get past the guilt without telling their spouse? To me, that's only relevant if you <generic> are of the belief that your marriage is yours alone. I don't quite understand how many people, here and out in the non-internet world, will, OOH, go on and on about how marriage is a partnership but then advocate treating marriage as if it's one person's alone to decide about. My husband got the shock of his life, I think, when, in one of our early discussions I made the statement that he needed to decide if he wanted to remain married to me AND I needed to decide if I wanted to remain married to him. For some reason, he seemed to have ignored the fact that he was not the only one who could choose to end our marriage and seemed to think that whether our marriage continued or not was his decision only. Tracey Tracey, I guess what I hear people saying here is that they already have
made that decision -- that they wouldn't leave based on one indiscretion, no
matter what. That's a valid perspective, albeit one I don't share. I did stay in a marriage where there was infidelity (as well as a whole
host of other issues), largely because I didn't want my kids to come from a
broken home.... and yes, because I didn't want a failed marriage. My ex did not
tell me; I found out on my own. His lack of honesty with me was one of the
major obstacles in our ever being able to put the marriage back together again.
I don't know if we could have ever made the marriage work. I do know that
his unwillingness to be honest with me prevented it from ever getting to the
stage of trying. Sheila

But when you confronted him on it, I presume he didn't deny it, Sheila (?).
Of course at that point I assume your trust was irreparably broken anyway
(which I can certainly understand).

I have heard of cases where that happens - where he denies it right to your
face - and I just can't assimilate that. (I mean how one thinks he can
pull such a LIE off right to your face, as though you are an idiot or
something. Well, maybe it is not about you, it is all about him and his
own "ego").

WhansaMi wrote:
Tracey, I guess what I hear people saying here is that they already have made that decision -- that they wouldn't leave based on one indiscretion, no matter what. That's a valid perspective, albeit one I don't share.

Heh. Well, that's not what I'm hearing people say. What I'm hearing is
people saying 'Don't tell'. In effect, making that decision for the OP's
wife.

I have no problem with someone saying that *their* decision is not to
be told. If that's the way they feel, that's the way they feel. I'm
totally disagreeing with the people who are, from my POV, applying
their own decision to the OP's wife.

Tracey

Bill wrote: >But when you confronted him on it, I presume he didn't deny it,
Sheila (?).Of course at that point I assume your trust was irreparably broken anyway(which I can certainly understand).

He didn't deny it. He also wouldn't really talk to me about it. It was this
that caused the seven-year stalemate.

Sheila

>WhansaMi wrote: Tracey, I guess what I hear people saying here is that they already havemade that decision -- that they wouldn't leave based on one indiscretion, nomatter what. That's a valid perspective, albeit one I don't share.Heh. Well, that's not what I'm hearing people say. What I'm hearing ispeople saying 'Don't tell'. In effect, making that decision for the OP'swife.I have no problem with someone saying that *their* decision is not tobe told. If that's the way they feel, that's the way they feel. I'mtotally disagreeing with the people who are, from my POV, applyingtheir own decision to the OP's wife.Tracey

Tracey, that is an excellent point. I guess I see most people's "advice"
saying more about what they would do than what they are advocating others to
do... but, you are right, in this instance, there was a request for advice, not
a generalized "What would you do/how would you feel about it?" type question.

Looking at it like that, I'd say that, in the absence of someone making it
explicitly clear that they wouldn't want to know, the OP is morally bound to
tell.

Sheila

WhansaMi wrote: Bill wrote: >But when you confronted him on it, I presume he didn't deny
it, Sheila (?). Of course at that point I assume your trust was irreparably broken anyway (which I can certainly understand). He didn't deny it. He also wouldn't really talk to me about it. It was
this that caused the seven-year stalemate. Sheila

"Seven year stalemate"? Does that mean you stay married to him for
seven years after his affair? I think that's what you mean. I presume
he wouldn't talk about it because it was embarrassing for him to do so,
and/or else he felt defensive.

>WhansaMi wrote: Bill wrote: >But when you confronted him on it, I presume he didn't denyit, Sheila (?). Of course at that point I assume your trust was irreparably broken anyway (which I can certainly understand). He didn't deny it. He also wouldn't really talk to me about it. It wasthis that caused the seven-year stalemate. Sheila"Seven year stalemate"? Does that mean you stay married to him forseven years after his affair?

Yep.

I think that's what you mean. I presumehe wouldn't talk about it because it was embarrassing for him to do so,and/or else he felt defensive.

There was much he wouldn't talk about.

Sheila

WhansaMi wrote: WhansaMi wrote: Bill wrote: >But when you confronted him on it, I presume he didn't
deny it, Sheila (?).> Of course at that point I assume your trust was irreparably broken
anyway> (which I can certainly understand). He didn't deny it. He also wouldn't really talk to me about it. It was this that caused the seven-year stalemate. Sheila "Seven year stalemate"? Does that mean you stay married to him for seven years after his affair? Yep. I think that's what you mean. I presume he wouldn't talk about it because it was embarrassing for him to do so, and/or else he felt defensive. There was much he wouldn't talk about. Sheila

Was he always that way? Or did something happen?

>If I were in your shoes, which I try very hard not to be, I would notconfeess. Despite that, I would become very contrite and make everyeffort possible to make up for this wrongdoing and shower your wifewith attention, thankfulness, love, understanding etc,and also neversleep around again.Confession, as such, is not going to help matters.i


I agree with you comopletely!
Grace

"WhansaMi" <whansami@aol.com> wrote in Looking at it like that, I'd say that, in the absence of someone making it explicitly clear that they wouldn't want to know, the OP is morally bound to tell.

Not necessarily. Telling a spouse about an indiscretion can be a selfish
thing to do. To carry the secret, and the guilt, and avoid hurting the
spouse with the truth can be an unselfish thing to do (if done for the
right reasons of course). When you look at it this way, morally the OP is
bound NOT to tell.

Amy

>"WhansaMi" <whansami@aol.com> wrote in Looking at it like that, I'd say that, in the absence of someone making it explicitly clear that they wouldn't want to know, the OP is morally bound to tell.Not necessarily. Telling a spouse about an indiscretion can be a selfishthing to do. To carry the secret, and the guilt, and avoid hurting thespouse with the truth can be an unselfish thing to do (if done for theright reasons of course). When you look at it this way, morally the OP isbound NOT to tell.Amy

I would disagree, for all the reasons Tracey, Cal, and Jen have listed in this
thread.

People are saying that may the spouse shouldn't tell because it might cause
pain/break up the marriage, etc. IMO, it isn't the telling that does that, but
the committing of the act.

I also see people saying this as being a way for cowardly people to find an
"out" for themselves. I'm going to trust the person who betrayed me in a most
***fundamental*** way to decide whether or not it is best for me to know???
That's having the fox guarding the henhouse.

Sheila

"WhansaMi" <whansami@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041025064324.22548.00001451@mb-m05.aol.com..."WhansaMi" <whansami@aol.com> wrote in Looking at it like that, I'd say that, in the absence of someone making it explicitly clear that they wouldn't want to know, the OP is morally bound to tell.Not necessarily. Telling a spouse about an indiscretion can be a selfishthing to do. To carry the secret, and the guilt, and avoid hurting thespouse with the truth can be an unselfish thing to do (if done for theright reasons of course). When you look at it this way, morally the OP isbound NOT to tell.Amy I would disagree, for all the reasons Tracey, Cal, and Jen have listed in this thread. People are saying that may the spouse shouldn't tell because it might cause pain/break up the marriage, etc. IMO, it isn't the telling that does that, but the committing of the act.

If that were the case then there would be no need to tell would there?
I also see people saying this as being a way for cowardly people to find an "out" for themselves. I'm going to trust the person who betrayed me in a most ***fundamental*** way to decide whether or not it is best for me to know??? That's having the fox guarding the henhouse.

I don't know. When my father was diagnosed with terminal cancer (in his
brain) my mother decided to keep it a secret from him. I'm not saying it was
the best thing for him (it's not what I would have done) but I know that she
did it because she loved him and wanted to spare him the pain of knowing the
awful truth.

Amy

>"WhansaMi" <whansami@aol.com> wrote in messagenews:20041025064324.22548.00001451@mb-m05.aol.com..."WhansaMi" <whansami@aol.com> wrote in>> Looking at it like that, I'd say that, in the absence of someone making> it> explicitly clear that they wouldn't want to know, the OP is morally> bound> to> tell.Not necessarily. Telling a spouse about an indiscretion can be a selfishthing to do. To carry the secret, and the guilt, and avoid hurting thespouse with the truth can be an unselfish thing to do (if done for theright reasons of course). When you look at it this way, morally the OP isbound NOT to tell.Amy I would disagree, for all the reasons Tracey, Cal, and Jen have listed in this thread. People are saying that may the spouse shouldn't tell because it might cause pain/break up the marriage, etc. IMO, it isn't the telling that does that, but the committing of the act.If that were the case then there would be no need to tell would there?

Yes, there is. It is called having enough respect for your partner to allow
them to make decisions for themselves, not having you make them for him/her.
It is about having enough respect for yourself to force yourself to be honest,
and honestly face that you made a very poor **choice** (not an accident, or
something unintentional) that put your marriage and your family at risk.

It is called taking responsibility for your actions.

Sheila

Piggybacking on myself:
Yes, there is. It is called having enough respect for your partner to allowthem to make decisions for themselves, not having you make them for him/her.It is about having enough respect for yourself to force yourself to behonest,and honestly face that you made a very poor **choice** (not an accident, orsomething unintentional) that put your marriage and your family at risk.It is called taking responsibility for your actions.Sheila

I just realized the word I'm searching for: integrity.

People who have cheated have shown a lack of integrity. They can prove they
are capable of it, even if they haven't displayed it in that instance, by
owning up to their behavior.

Sheila

Sheila, Tracey, and all,
You right, this was a request for advice, that was actually hopeful
that people would talk from experience (That I recieved and am
greatful for). I believe I am going to tell, and not to ease my
guilt, but rather to give my wife the full picture of me before I
proceed like nothing happened. Mean-spirited, unfair, cruel a few of
the many words used to discribe this course of action, but I can't
seem to find any other way to proceed in a way that would be honest,
to me, to her.

It is interesting that some of the strongest opinions have come from
people who have never found themselves (and I'm sure never would) find
themselves in my situation. I'm sure I could have penned those same
opinions 5 months ago. Unfortunatly all that seemed so black and
white to me, have turned shades of grey, a result of reall ****ty
choices on my part, and I would like to get back to a more black and
white world. I have found that while those who have been in similar
situations still see black and white, but they are willing to
recognize(not condoning mind you) the grey as part of life.

I have learned from all, thanks for taking the time.

"Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:k55fd.38659$5O5.19080@news-server.bigpond.net.au... I don't know. When my father was diagnosed with terminal cancer (in his brain) my mother decided to keep it a secret from him. I'm not saying it was the best thing for him (it's not what I would have done) but I know that she did it because she loved him and wanted to spare him the pain of knowing the awful truth.

But then he had no clue what was happening to him and had no way to prepare
for it.

Jess

WhansaMi wrote: Piggybacking on myself:Yes, there is. It is called having enough respect for your partner to allowthem to make decisions for themselves, not having you make them for him/her.It is about having enough respect for yourself to force yourself to behonest,and honestly face that you made a very poor **choice** (not an accident, orsomething unintentional) that put your marriage and your family at risk.It is called taking responsibility for your actions.Sheila I just realized the word I'm searching for: integrity. People who have cheated have shown a lack of integrity. They can prove they are capable of it, even if they haven't displayed it in that instance, by owning up to their behavior.

Yah. Integrity. I like that word. :P

Tracey

"The Watsons" <warpedsystems@dcrc.net> wrote in message
news:Bs8fd.18025$SW3.9112@fed1read01... "Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:k55fd.38659$5O5.19080@news-server.bigpond.net.au... I don't know. When my father was diagnosed with terminal cancer (in his brain) my mother decided to keep it a secret from him. I'm not saying it was the best thing for him (it's not what I would have done) but I know that she did it because she loved him and wanted to spare him the pain of knowing the awful truth. But then he had no clue what was happening to him and had no way to prepare for it.

You don't have to tell me. I think he would have been better off knowing the
truth. My mother was so devestated that she didn't want him to have to feel
that way too. Im not saying it was the right thing to do. I'm not saying it
was the wrong thing to do. It was a decision she made on the spur of the
moment and she stuck it out. Not for any gain for herself but for his sake.

Amy

"WhansaMi" <whansami@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041025071735.28718.00001442@mb-m05.aol.com..."WhansaMi" <whansami@aol.com> wrote in messagenews:20041025064324.22548.00001451@mb-m05.aol.com... >"WhansaMi" <whansami@aol.com> wrote in>>>> Looking at it like that, I'd say that, in the absence of someone>> making>> it>> explicitly clear that they wouldn't want to know, the OP is morally>> bound>> to>> tell.>>Not necessarily. Telling a spouse about an indiscretion can be a selfish>thing to do. To carry the secret, and the guilt, and avoid hurting the>spouse with the truth can be an unselfish thing to do (if done for the>right reasons of course). When you look at it this way, morally the OP>is>bound NOT to tell.>>Amy I would disagree, for all the reasons Tracey, Cal, and Jen have listed in this thread. People are saying that may the spouse shouldn't tell because it might cause pain/break up the marriage, etc. IMO, it isn't the telling that does that, but the committing of the act.If that were the case then there would be no need to tell would there? Yes, there is. It is called having enough respect for your partner to allow them to make decisions for themselves, not having you make them for him/her. It is about having enough respect for yourself to force yourself to be honest, and honestly face that you made a very poor **choice** (not an accident, or something unintentional) that put your marriage and your family at risk. It is called taking responsibility for your actions.

I understand that. But when faced with a choice of 1) 'taking responsibility
for your actions' which will include destroying someone's happiness or 2)
'not taking responsibility for your actions' hence preserving someone's
happiness the black and white of what's morally right and wrong gets
blurred.

What do you think about my mother's secret?


Amy

>>>> >"WhansaMi" <whansami@aol.com> wrote in>>>>>> Looking at it like that, I'd say that, in the absence of someone>>> making>>> it>>> explicitly clear that they wouldn't want to know, the OP is morally>>> bound>>> to>>> tell.>>>>Not necessarily. Telling a spouse about an indiscretion can be a selfish>>thing to do. To carry the secret, and the guilt, and avoid hurting the>>spouse with the truth can be an unselfish thing to do (if done for the>>right reasons of course). When you look at it this way, morally the OP>>is>>bound NOT to tell.>>>>Amy>> I would disagree, for all the reasons Tracey, Cal, and Jen have listed> in> this> thread.>> People are saying that may the spouse shouldn't tell because it might> cause> pain/break up the marriage, etc. IMO, it isn't the telling that does> that, but> the committing of the act.If that were the case then there would be no need to tell would there? Yes, there is. It is called having enough respect for your partner to allow them to make decisions for themselves, not having you make them for him/her. It is about having enough respect for yourself to force yourself to be honest, and honestly face that you made a very poor **choice** (not an accident, or something unintentional) that put your marriage and your family at risk. It is called taking responsibility for your actions.I understand that. But when faced with a choice of 1) 'taking responsibilityfor your actions' which will include destroying someone's happiness or 2)'not taking responsibility for your actions' hence preserving someone'shappiness the black and white of what's morally right and wrong getsblurred.What do you think about my mother's secret?Amy

I think she was wrong to make that kind of decision for someone else. I also
think it was done selfishly, despite what you say. I think **she** didn't want
to see the effect she believed it would have on your father.

Sheila

>>What do you think about my mother's secret?AmyI think she was wrong to make that kind of decision for someone else. I alsothink it was done selfishly, despite what you say. I think **she** didn'twantto see the effect she believed it would have on your father.Sheila

Let me both temper and expand upon my statement.

I'll temper with "I suspect it is equally likely that she did it so that she
wouldn't have to witness what she believed his response to be."

I think it was very selfish in that she stole the one thing from him that was
at a premium -- time. If I were dying, I'd want be able to tie up loose ends,
and have the *time* to do so. I'd want to have as much time as I could to
process it, to talk to other people, to do whatever it was I needed to do. I
think it was wrong for her to take that from him.

Sheila

Amy Lou wrote in news:q%pfd.654$%I1.240@news-server.bigpond.net.au: "WhansaMi" <whansami@aol.com> wrote in message>>> Looking at it like that, I'd say that, in the absence of someone>>> making>>> it>>> explicitly clear that they wouldn't want to know, the OP is>>> morally bound>>> to>>> tell.>>>>Not necessarily. Telling a spouse about an indiscretion can be a>>selfish thing to do. To carry the secret, and the guilt, and avoid>>hurting the spouse with the truth can be an unselfish thing to do>>(if done for the right reasons of course). When you look at it this>>way, morally the OP is>>bound NOT to tell.>>>>Amy>> I would disagree, for all the reasons Tracey, Cal, and Jen have> listed in> this> thread.>> People are saying that may the spouse shouldn't tell because it> might cause> pain/break up the marriage, etc. IMO, it isn't the telling that> does that, but> the committing of the act.If that were the case then there would be no need to tell wouldthere? Yes, there is. It is called having enough respect for your partner to allow them to make decisions for themselves, not having you make them for him/her. It is about having enough respect for yourself to force yourself to be honest, and honestly face that you made a very poor **choice** (not an accident, or something unintentional) that put your marriage and your family at risk. It is called taking responsibility for your actions. I understand that. But when faced with a choice of 1) 'taking responsibility for your actions' which will include destroying someone's happiness or 2) 'not taking responsibility for your actions' hence preserving someone's happiness the black and white of what's morally right and wrong gets blurred.

Not for me. The choice was made at the time the person chose to have the
“indiscretion”, IMO (how’s that for sanitizing what I consider pretty
disgusting behavior?).

If you didn’t want to cause unhappiness to your partner, you wouldn’t
cross that line in the first damn place. This is, of course, predicated
on the notion that you're not in an open relationship with your spouse.
What do you think about my mother's secret?

You weren't asking me, but IMO, it was an abhorrent thing to do. I don't
think she had the right to keep such information from him.
--
Cal~

Change me to myself for email :-)

"Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:uPpfd.645$%I1.644@news-server.bigpond.net.au... You don't have to tell me. I think he would have been better off knowing the truth. My mother was so devestated that she didn't want him to have to feel that way too. Im not saying it was the right thing to do. I'm not saying it was the wrong thing to do. It was a decision she made on the spur of the moment and she stuck it out. Not for any gain for herself but for his sake.

You know I'm not going to agree with that, right? :/

Jess

"WhansaMi" <whansami@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041026070848.22494.00001373@mb-m06.aol.com...What do you think about my mother's secret?AmyI think she was wrong to make that kind of decision for someone else. Ialsothink it was done selfishly, despite what you say. I think **she** didn'twantto see the effect she believed it would have on your father.Sheila Let me both temper and expand upon my statement. I'll temper with "I suspect it is equally likely that she did it so that she wouldn't have to witness what she believed his response to be." I think it was very selfish in that she stole the one thing from him that was at a premium -- time. If I were dying, I'd want be able to tie up loose ends, and have the *time* to do so. I'd want to have as much time as I could to process it, to talk to other people, to do whatever it was I needed to do. I think it was wrong for her to take that from him.

Are you sure about that? :) We all *are* dying. We just don't know when it
will
happen. I think I'd prefer to get run over by a bus and have it all over and
done with quickly, after living my life right up to the last minute thinking
about life, not death.

It comes down to opinion. There are no books that one can look up and find
out what the *right* thing to do is. I agree with you that my Dad should
have known the truth about his illness. I don't agree with you that Mum did
what she did out of selfishness.

The reason I brought this up was because there is a certain element of "what
people don't know can't hurt them" here. Being kept in the dark might sound
dishonest but if one doesn't know a particular detail about their marriage
or their health and never finds out about it, they never have to deal with
it.

My Dad for eg never had to deal with the fact that he had a terminal illness
and would slowly lose his mind. When you think about it, that was a good
thing.

Amy

"Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:FmEfd.125$K7.29@news-server.bigpond.net.au... My Dad for eg never had to deal with the fact that he had a terminal illness and would slowly lose his mind. When you think about it, that was a good thing.

Yes, he did-he just had to deal with it without knowing what was going on,
and that's even more frightening.

Jess

Amy Lou wrote in news:FmEfd.125$K7.29@news-server.bigpond.net.au:
It comes down to opinion. There are no books that one can look up and find out what the *right* thing to do is. I agree with you that my Dad should have known the truth about his illness. I don't agree with you that Mum did what she did out of selfishness.

Something like this is now illegal here, given the new privacy rules in
the US. The doctor can't even tell the spouse, without the express
(written?) consent of the patient.

--
Cal~

Change me to myself for email :-)

"The Watsons" <warpedsystems@dcrc.net> writes:
"Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:FmEfd.125$K7.29@news-server.bigpond.net.au... My Dad for eg never had to deal with the fact that he had a terminal illness and would slowly lose his mind. When you think about it, that was a good thing. Yes, he did-he just had to deal with it without knowing what was going on, and that's even more frightening.

Possibly. Possibly not.

I just watched a relative die of Alzheimer's. By the time it was
clear what was going on, he was no longer capable of understanding it.
So the fact that people were straighforward about it did not make it
any less frightening for him since he couldn't understand anyway.

Even if he'd understood that he was _going_ to get Alzheimer's before
he did, by the time he was dying, that information and the ability to
use it in any way would be lost to him.

Doug

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2u8iskF27dsmpU1@uni-berlin.de... Possibly. Possibly not. I just watched a relative die of Alzheimer's. By the time it was clear what was going on, he was no longer capable of understanding it. So the fact that people were straighforward about it did not make it any less frightening for him since he couldn't understand anyway.\

Alzheimer's sucks-my CNA professor gave me an extra couple of days on the
Alzheimer's ward because I hate dealing with it so much and I needed to
learn to. :/
Even if he'd understood that he was _going_ to get Alzheimer's before he did, by the time he was dying, that information and the ability to use it in any way would be lost to him.

Possibly in the end (and it sounds like that's where it was diagnosed), but
in the early days, it might've helped him tie up the loose ends.

Jess

If you tell her your 20 yr marriage may come to an end! If she had a 3
month affair I bet she wouldn't tell you! If I were you I'd keep it to
myself! What she doesn't know won't hurt her or YOU!

"The Watsons" <warpedsystems@dcrc.net> writes:
"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:2u8iskF27dsmpU1@uni-berlin.de... Possibly. Possibly not. I just watched a relative die of Alzheimer's. By the time it was clear what was going on, he was no longer capable of understanding it. So the fact that people were straighforward about it did not make it any less frightening for him since he couldn't understand anyway.\ Alzheimer's sucks-my CNA professor gave me an extra couple of days on the Alzheimer's ward because I hate dealing with it so much and I needed to learn to. :/ Even if he'd understood that he was _going_ to get Alzheimer's before he did, by the time he was dying, that information and the ability to use it in any way would be lost to him. Possibly in the end (and it sounds like that's where it was diagnosed), but in the early days, it might've helped him tie up the loose ends.

No, that is the point. By the time it was clear that he had it, his
thinking processes and especially his judgement were too disturbed for
the information to be useful.

It isn't possible to diagnose it before symptoms appear (in fact even
when symptoms _do_ appear it remains impossible to diagnose it
definitively), and because people tend to be in denial, the early
symptoms are often ignored.

Since we use our minds so heavily for everything, it is very difficult
to desl with diseases which radically change the way our minds
function.

Doug

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2u8kdvF27nhluU1@uni-berlin.de... It isn't possible to diagnose it before symptoms appear (in fact even when symptoms _do_ appear it remains impossible to diagnose it definitively), and because people tend to be in denial, the early symptoms are often ignored.

It is now-there is a type of MRI (as I recall it) that can show the plaque
buildups that are indicative of Alzheimer's.

Since we use our minds so heavily for everything, it is very difficult to desl with diseases which radically change the way our minds function.

Yep.

Jess

"The Watsons" <warpedsystems@dcrc.net> writes:
"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:2u8kdvF27nhluU1@uni-berlin.de... It isn't possible to diagnose it before symptoms appear (in fact even when symptoms _do_ appear it remains impossible to diagnose it definitively), and because people tend to be in denial, the early symptoms are often ignored. It is now-there is a type of MRI (as I recall it) that can show the plaque buildups that are indicative of Alzheimer's.

I don't believe there is a definitive diagnosis short of autopsy.

There are scans that can indicate the possibility. My relative was
believed _not_ to have Alzheimer's by his doctor (but some other form
of dementia) until the autopsy was performed after his Since.

The estimates I hear these days are that experienced clinicians can
give a correct diagnosis 90% of the time, which is pretty good, but
not definitive.

"*Calinda*" <Calinda@me.com> wrote in message
news:Xns958EEE90EB86919599491@130.133.1.4... Amy Lou wrote in news:FmEfd.125$K7.29@news-server.bigpond.net.au: It comes down to opinion. There are no books that one can look up and find out what the *right* thing to do is. I agree with you that my Dad should have known the truth about his illness. I don't agree with you that Mum did what she did out of selfishness. Something like this is now illegal here, given the new privacy rules in the US. The doctor can't even tell the spouse, without the express (written?) consent of the patient.

I am sure it is the same here. I am totally unaware of the reason why my Mum
was told the diagnosis and not my Dad but it did all happen over 20 years
ago.

Amy

Thank you for all the responces, I appreciate the time and effort. I
think I have decided too tell her, not as a way to ease my guilt, but
rather to give my wife a truer picture of myself, so she can decide
where to go. I understand the pain it will inflict, but I think in
the long run, no matter what happens, my wife would want more rather
than less information about me.

Just as a side note, although this discussion has taken many twist and
turns, the subject of the mindset of an adulturer seems to come in.
As judgemental as some of the responces have been (I know it is well
deserved)they could have been penned by me 6 moths ago. I lived in a
black and white world, fairly hapily married, a few short comings, but
hey that's life. Then I met someone and things changed from black and
white to shades of grey. At many points I'd look at myself in the
mirror and say "what the hell are you doing", but (and this is my
major flaw) I wouldn't have the resolve to put an end to it. I found
myself in deeper in deeper, and recieving some of the things lacking
in my marrage made me ignore what I knew was right. Before panning
this as an excuse, please realize I offer this as an explination or
better yet a warning, but in no way relieving myself of the blame. I
compounded bad judgement with bad judgement and unfortunatly ended up
in the situation where all that I know may fall apart. I pretty
****ty situation for someone who thought "I would never", but never
thought about confronting the issue.

I would suggest that all the people that say "i would never" think
about saying "I will do everything in my power not to" instead. I
wish I had.

Peace and thank you for your thoughts.




mrsbr_175@hotmail.com (Mr_sbr) wrote in message news:<659eb625.0410191254.6cc17c4e@posting.google.com>... To make a long story short, After 20 yrs of being fairly happily married I had a 3 month long emotional affair with a woman in a different city. It became physical just last month, but we mutually decided to break it off recently because we saw no future in it. It would be fair to say that I still have strong feelings for her, and she, I. Now it started for all the usual reasons, felling lonely and neglected, but I certainly don't use that as an excuse. My question is should I tell my wife? I don't think there is a chance she would find out, and it wouldn't be to relieve my own guilt. I just feel after months of doing the wrong thing, telling her would be the right thing. We have two teenage children with whom I am a very active father. I know what I did was unforgivable, but i just think she should know, I would want to.

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2u9qq5F28dgheU1@uni-berlin.de...
Those who look at the world in black and white are more vulnerable to making bad decisions than those who have already considered the many shadings of gray. Yeah, I know lots of you disagree with this.

Well, it makes sense to me. I have become much more of a "gray thinker"
over the past decade, and it's meant I've let go of many strong convictions
and replaced them with strong commitments & goals. That doesn't feel wrong
to me, it just feels sensible.
My solution to this problem is acknowledging that I _will_ occasionally be attracted to people I work with, and that I can choose to enjoy that feeling (it is fun being attracted to someone) without acting on it.

That's how I've operated in similar situations. I can't prevent myself from
getting crushes on people, and if I avoided people after getting crushes on
them, I'd never get to meet anyone new <g>. History has proven that I can
prevent myself from acting on the feeling, and I talk with my husband and
acknowledge my personality (I get crushes quickly and they fade quickly).
Another example to me of this principle is divorce. If you tell yourself (as most of us do) that you are going to stay married for ever, and idealize your spouse, instead of rationally considering what are the deal-breakers for you and how to avoid them, you are in a poor position to make the marriage decision in the first place, and then in a poor position if you face problems.

I think of it as a pragmatic and sensible understanding of the realities of
life, marriage, crushes, divorce and adultery, not necessarily a blanket
pass to make bad choices. It seems here, Doug, like you feel the way I do.

I'm not someone who can say, "I will stay married forever." I can say, "I
want to stay married forever, and that is my intention and my hope," and I
will act toward that goal.

I'm not someone who can say, "I will never cheat." I can say, "I don't plan
on cheating, and I never want to cheat, but I am aware that cheating
happens, and I am aware that there is a mindset that I cannot fully predict
that might cause me to change my thinking some day--based on what I've seen
happen."

Believing otherwise would make me feel naive, and perhaps I just don't want
to feel vulnerable against what I see as surprises in life. Again, this is
JMHO!

Jennifer

Jennifer in Maryland wrote in news:QZOdnf8hg-HQwx3cRVn-rA@comcast.com:
"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelogremovethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:2u9qq5F28dgheU1@uni-berlin.de... Those who look at the world in black and white are more vulnerable to making bad decisions than those who have already considered the many shadings of gray. Yeah, I know lots of you disagree with this. Well, it makes sense to me. I have become much more of a "gray thinker" over the past decade, and it's meant I've let go of many strong convictions and replaced them with strong commitments & goals. That doesn't feel wrong to me, it just feels sensible. My solution to this problem is acknowledging that I _will_ occasionally be attracted to people I work with, and that I can choose to enjoy that feeling (it is fun being attracted to someone) without acting on it. That's how I've operated in similar situations. I can't prevent myself from getting crushes on people, and if I avoided people after getting crushes on them, I'd never get to meet anyone new <g>. History has proven that I can prevent myself from acting on the feeling, and I talk with my husband and acknowledge my personality (I get crushes quickly and they fade quickly). Another example to me of this principle is divorce. If you tell yourself (as most of us do) that you are going to stay married for ever, and idealize your spouse, instead of rationally considering what are the deal-breakers for you and how to avoid them, you are in a poor position to make the marriage decision in the first place, and then in a poor position if you face problems. I think of it as a pragmatic and sensible understanding of the realities of life, marriage, crushes, divorce and adultery, not necessarily a blanket pass to make bad choices. It seems here, Doug, like you feel the way I do. I'm not someone who can say, "I will stay married forever." I can say, "I want to stay married forever, and that is my intention and my hope," and I will act toward that goal. I'm not someone who can say, "I will never cheat." I can say, "I don't plan on cheating, and I never want to cheat, but I am aware that cheating happens, and I am aware that there is a mindset that I cannot fully predict that might cause me to change my thinking some day--based on what I've seen happen." Believing otherwise would make me feel naive, and perhaps I just don't want to feel vulnerable against what I see as surprises in life. Again, this is JMHO! Jennifer

There is a difference between a divorce and adultry, IMO. For starters..
I can control my behavior in such a way that I know for a *fact* that
cheating is not something I would engage in. It is only myself that I
need to control.

Staying married requires both partners to be committed. All it takes is
one of the two to want out, and there isn't much the other can do about
it. They don't have the control in that situation.

So to me, there is no sense in comparing the two, they are two completely
different things because I only have completely control over my own
actions.
--
Cal~

Change me to myself for email :-)

"Tracey" <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote inIf I harm/kill someone who has come into my house and tries toharm/kill myself or my family, I will not be using the circumstancesto justify breaking my moral code because it *doesn't* break mymoral code. For a Quaker, though, it would be different. So then why would a Quaker break their moral code? Its clear to me that they would do that because their so called black and white morals had grey areas. What is grey? No violence for any reason. A Quaker, to remain a moral person, will not commit violence against another person.

This is how I interpreted your story: If a Quaker harmed someone (who has
broken into their home and threatened to kill them) they broke their moral
code. In other words even though they thought using violence was wrong, they
still went ahead and used violence.

Amy

Amy Lou wrote: "Tracey" <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote in>If I harm/kill someone who has come into my house and tries to>harm/kill myself or my family, I will not be using the circumstances>to justify breaking my moral code because it *doesn't* break my>moral code. For a Quaker, though, it would be different.So then why would a Quaker break their moral code? Its clear to me thatthey would do that because their so called black and white morals hadgrey areas.What is grey? No violence for any reason. A Quaker, to remain a moralperson, will not commit violence against another person. This is how I interpreted your story: If a Quaker harmed someone (who has broken into their home and threatened to kill them) they broke their moral code. In other words even though they thought using violence was wrong, they still went ahead and used violence.

No, I was trying to explain the different moral codes people have.

Tracey

"Tracey" <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote in message
news:4180AED8.1090401@aol.com... Amy Lou wrote: "Tracey" <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote in>>If I harm/kill someone who has come into my house and tries to>>harm/kill myself or my family, I will not be using the circumstances>>to justify breaking my moral code because it *doesn't* break my>>moral code. For a Quaker, though, it would be different.>>>So then why would a Quaker break their moral code? Its clear to me that>they would do that because their so called black and white morals had>grey areas.What is grey? No violence for any reason. A Quaker, to remain a moralperson, will not commit violence against another person. This is how I interpreted your story: If a Quaker harmed someone (who has broken into their home and threatened to kill them) they broke their moral code. In other words even though they thought using violence was wrong, they still went ahead and used violence. No, I was trying to explain the different moral codes people have.

Fair enough. People have different moral codes. I don't disagree with that.
What I was saying was that people who have a moral code can break them when
they come up against a situation that makes them rethink their code. For eg
my mother (I'm pretty confident in saying that she believed very strongly in
being honest)

Amy

Mr_sbr wrote:
I would suggest that all the people that say "i would never" think about saying "I will do everything in my power not to" instead. I wish I had.

I've said at least once and probably more that I don't just say 'I
would never' and leave it at that. Why does the fact that I say 'I
will never' make a difference in what the ultimate outcome is?

Tracey

Doug Anderson wrote:
Interesting. Your post reinforces my preconceptions.

For this person. Mr_sbr's experience is not a predicator that
*everyone* will act in the same way he did.
Those who look at the world in black and white are more vulnerable to making bad decisions than those who have already considered the many shadings of gray.

And I find it extremely ironic that the 'shades of grey' people are
the ones that are being close-minded here and refusing to acknowledge
that the 'black and white' people are no more likely to have an affair
than they are <as long as both groups of people are actively working
on not having an affair>.

Tracey

Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com> writes:
Doug Anderson wrote: Interesting. Your post reinforces my preconceptions. For this person. Mr_sbr's experience is not a predicator that *everyone* will act in the same way he did. Those who look at the world in black and white are more vulnerable to making bad decisions than those who have already considered the many shadings of gray. And I find it extremely ironic that the 'shades of grey' people are the ones that are being close-minded here and refusing to acknowledge that the 'black and white' people are no more likely to have an affair than they are <as long as both groups of people are actively working on not having an affair>.

Well, OK. I don't really believe that someone saying "I will never
cheat" actually makes them _more_ likely to cheat. Though I admit I
may have said something to that affect.

But I _do_ think that simply _saying_ "I will never cheat" doesn't
make someone more moral (or less likely to cheat) than someone who
says "I think cheating is wrong, and I intend not to, but I recognize
that I can't predict my responses to all the situations I could be in
my life."

And I also think if "I will never cheat" is the beginning and the end
of someone's thinking on this, then they are leaving themselves wide
open. Much more useful to go on and think about the various kinds of
circumstances people end up cheating in and how one would handle those
(or at least how one believes one _should_ handle those).

> No, I was trying to explain the different moral codes people have.

Some people don't have any moral codes. Why? Absentee or abusive
parenting.

Doug Anderson wrote: Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com> writes:Doug Anderson wrote:Interesting. Your post reinforces my preconceptions.For this person. Mr_sbr's experience is not a predicator that*everyone* will act in the same way he did.Those who look at the world in black and white are more vulnerable tomaking bad decisions than those who have already considered the manyshadings of gray.And I find it extremely ironic that the 'shades of grey' people arethe ones that are being close-minded here and refusing to acknowledgethat the 'black and white' people are no more likely to have an affairthan they are <as long as both groups of people are actively workingon not having an affair>. Well, OK. I don't really believe that someone saying "I will never cheat" actually makes them _more_ likely to cheat. Though I admit I may have said something to that affect.

May have? Hehe. You said it in the part of the post I quoted above,
now marked by three >'s.
But I _do_ think that simply _saying_ "I will never cheat" doesn't make someone more moral (or less likely to cheat) than someone who says "I think cheating is wrong, and I intend not to, but I recognize that I can't predict my responses to all the situations I could be in my life."

I never said anything about being more moral IIRC. I will admit that
I started out with the 'less likely to cheat' mindset but it has
changed a little, which is why I wrote my 'A slight shift in mindset...'
post. And I've said more than once that it's not a matter of me
simply *saying* 'I will never cheat' that I'm banking on as some
sort of impenetrable shield.
And I also think if "I will never cheat" is the beginning and the end of someone's thinking on this, then they are leaving themselves wide open. Much more useful to go on and think about the various kinds of circumstances people end up cheating in and how one would handle those (or at least how one believes one _should_ handle those).

I'm not sure why some are interpreting the statement 'I will never
cheat' as the beginning and end of someone's thinking on this, es-
pecially when Sheliah, Cal and I have went into more detail about
our thought process and why we are confident in making that state-
ment about ourselves and what we have done when faced with the pos-
sibility.

Someone made a comment about how they didn't know why people were
getting upset. It's quite simple, really. This has not been an
exclusively general discussion. If comments had all been along the
lines of 'A lot of people who say 'I will never cheat' will end
up in an affair because they aren't actively making sure they will
never cheat', I, personally, wouldn't have remained in this dis-
cussion this long. But I <and Sheliah and Cal> have all been pointed
to *specifically* and comments have been made about us *specifically*.
If you <generic> want to say that many people you know who have said
'I will never cheat' have went on to have an affair, I won't argue
with that. When you say 'Tracey can't say for certain she will never
have an affair', then I *will* argue with that and say that, in the
normal course that my life should take, I will not cheat. (And, by
that, I mean barring a physical or medical injury to my brain that
would basically mean I wasn't 'me' anymore or some catastrophic
societal breakdown a la Armageddon where my moral convictions about
not cheating *might* be overwhelmed by a biological or psychological
urge associated with survival of the species. Of course, that would
have to happen in the next few years because the baby-making machine
is already starting to show signs of retiring forever. TMI, wasn't
that? :P)

Another part of it, for me at least, and it's been mentioned before
in one or the other threads on it, is the seeming dismissal of the
fact that this subject *is not* hypothetical for me and for others. I'll
be honest, Doug, in more than one post, you made some comments that had
me angrier than I have been in a loooong time about a post I've read
here. You dismissed my example of how I didn't have an affair pretty
cavalierly, IMO. Basically an 'Oh, well, she did it once. That proves
nothing.' I have went through the most emotionally vulnerable period
that I will ever go through and I didn't have an affair or I have been
able to keep myself from even stepping on that path on more than one
occasion. For you, who have no where NEAR all the information about
my life or how I felt or what I have done, to pronounce that I *really*
don't know what I would or wouldn't do, to seem to believe that you
know me and my life and my experiences better than I and to seem to
believe that you are in a better position to predict my future behavior
than I am is extremely insulting to me.

Tracey

Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com> writes:
Doug Anderson wrote: Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com> writes:Doug Anderson wrote:>Interesting. Your post reinforces my preconceptions.For this person. Mr_sbr's experience is not a predicator that*everyone* will act in the same way he did.>Those who look at the world in black and white are more vulnerable to>making bad decisions than those who have already considered the many>shadings of gray.And I find it extremely ironic that the 'shades of grey' people arethe ones that are being close-minded here and refusing to acknowledgethat the 'black and white' people are no more likely to have an affairthan they are <as long as both groups of people are actively workingon not having an affair>. Well, OK. I don't really believe that someone saying "I will never cheat" actually makes them _more_ likely to cheat. Though I admit I may have said something to that affect. May have? Hehe. You said it in the part of the post I quoted above, now marked by three >'s.

Actually, that statement is slightly different. And I stand by it.
(See below.)
But I _do_ think that simply _saying_ "I will never cheat" doesn't make someone more moral (or less likely to cheat) than someone who says "I think cheating is wrong, and I intend not to, but I recognize that I can't predict my responses to all the situations I could be in my life." I never said anything about being more moral IIRC. I will admit that I started out with the 'less likely to cheat' mindset but it has changed a little, which is why I wrote my 'A slight shift in mindset...' post. And I've said more than once that it's not a matter of me simply *saying* 'I will never cheat' that I'm banking on as some sort of impenetrable shield.

Yes, I understand that. You've thought about this some, thought
about the possibilities, and been exposed to at least one kind of
situation that would tempt some people to cheat.
And I also think if "I will never cheat" is the beginning and the end of someone's thinking on this, then they are leaving themselves wide open. Much more useful to go on and think about the various kinds of circumstances people end up cheating in and how one would handle those (or at least how one believes one _should_ handle those). I'm not sure why some are interpreting the statement 'I will never cheat' as the beginning and end of someone's thinking on this, es- pecially when Sheliah, Cal and I have went into more detail about our thought process and why we are confident in making that state- ment about ourselves and what we have done when faced with the pos- sibility.

'Cause I think sometimes it is the beginning and the end.

When people say "I won't cheat because it's against my moral code,"
that doesn't convince me that they have thought seriously about why
people cheat. Many people break their own moral codes with some
regularity.

On the other hand, when people say "I won't cheat because it's against
my moral code, and I've been through situations that tested that
resolve, and I've watched the result of other people cheating and
would never want to cause those results," then I know they are serious
and aren't likely to cheat. But not simply because they say it is
against their moral code. (And my opinion is they _still_ might
cheat, just not in circumstances they can actually imagine properrly.)

Someone made a comment about how they didn't know why people were getting upset. It's quite simple, really. This has not been an exclusively general discussion. If comments had all been along the lines of 'A lot of people who say 'I will never cheat' will end up in an affair because they aren't actively making sure they will never cheat', I, personally, wouldn't have remained in this dis- cussion this long. But I <and Sheliah and Cal> have all been pointed to *specifically* and comments have been made about us *specifically*. If you <generic> want to say that many people you know who have said 'I will never cheat' have went on to have an affair, I won't argue with that. When you say 'Tracey can't say for certain she will never have an affair', then I *will* argue with that and say that, in the normal course that my life should take, I will not cheat.

Which is probably true. But I'll still have to disagre, because you
and I have different ideas about how much one can know about how one
will behave in hypothetical situations. Yes, you know how you'll
behave in non-hypothetical situations, but you haven't exhausted the
possibilities yet I hope!


Let me give a different example. Suppose someone says: "I will never
break and betray my country under torture or coercien, because I think
that is wrong."

If this was someone like me (who has never experienced torture and
knows nothing about what it is like) I would think "Bull**** - you
know nothing about what you would do." And on USENET, I'd probably
even go ahead and say that.

If it was someone who had actually _experienced_ torture I'd think
"Well, _maybe_, but maybe your torturers just didn't come up with the
correct coercive methods for _you_. Maybe hitting you wouldn't work,
but freezing you, or torturing your loved ones in front of you might."


For me it isn't about whether you (or Sheila, or Cal) are sincere, I'm
quite sure you are. What it is about is my belief that we can't
_really_ understand extreme circumstances unless we experience them.
So the fact that you (and for that matter me) haven't had affairs even
under circumstances where it would have been easy and where we would
have been able to come up with very good excuses