Okay- for those of you who have been following my case, we have been waiting until this month to file a termination of bio mom's rights on numerous fronts. Last contact was june 06 and no support in 9 years. Getting ready to file the tpr when bam- today we get a certified letter that she wants to get her for the 6 week visitation. Now, remember she has supervised because last time she had her alone, she came home in a coma due to her momma not taking care of her diabetes. Last summer, the supervisors (her gp) let momma take her off on her own and they do not take care of her condition either. So, I have a call into our atty, but wanted some input.
Does this letter count as contact meaning that we have to wait the period of no contact again?
Can we still file the termination?
any chance we can get the supervisors changed to someone else so that the gp don't have that right anymore? They are 200 miles away when she goes there.
Also, the mom has had no contact in a year so daughter planned to go to diabetic camp (advice of her Dr) and do some other things this summer and is now devastated that she may not get to do them
Do we stand any chance of getting the visitation shortened or maybe get the supervision moved here for her medical?

Okay- for those of you who have been following my case, we have been waiting until this month to file a termination of bio mom's rights on numerous fronts. Last contact was june 06 and no support in 9 years. Getting ready to file the tpr when bam- today we get a certified letter that she wants to get her for the 6 week visitation. Now, remember she has supervised because last time she had her alone, she came home in a coma due to her momma not taking care of her diabetes. Last summer, the supervisors (her gp) let momma take her off on her own and they do not take care of her condition either. So, I have a call into our atty, but wanted some input.
Does this letter count as contact meaning that we have to wait the period of no contact again Sadly it does likely count as contact and to file NOW based on that may make you look vindictive, even though you aren't... hopefully your attorney will have some ideas?



Can we still file the termination? You could try but again you're attorney will know the best action to take

any chance we can get the supervisors changed to someone else so that the gp don't have that right anymore? They are 200 miles away when she goes there.
Yes if you have all the proof (which I am sure you do) of the last incident. Only problem I see is the judge asking why that wasn't done sooner, like when it happened.


Also, the mom has had no contact in a year so daughter planned to go to diabetic camp (advice of her Dr) and do some other things this summer and is now devastated that she may not get to do them
Do we stand any chance of getting the visitation shortened or maybe get the supervision moved here for her medical?

What does the order say about a date of mom contacting for her summer visit?

BTW.. which rules apply? Tn or Al? I forget

A certified letter asking to visit with the daughter would be contact. If you deny the visit, you look bad. If you allow the visit, it will either call her bluff if she did not intend to visit but count as contact for sure when she did visit and you'll have to go through the whole setup for supervised visitation as well.

My question would be, if she is under the courts to have supervised visits only, would this letter supercede that order? To have her for so long, would obviously not be supervised? Do the courts say who the supervisor has to be, is there a name to it, or just anyone? I would ask the lawyer, if what the child would be missing (diebetes camp, which in not just camp, but a fun way to learn how to save her life with this condition), could also be construde as a medical neccessity, and the visit be granted, but at a different date? In other words, responding with a letter stating that you got the request for the visitation, but are hoping that she would allow the dates to be changed, for the medical knowledge for the child in camp. This is not a normal "camp", so I am not sure on this. This is definately contact, but I would also ask the lawyer if this contact takes away all the months and months of no contact, and may have only been done because she was aware that she must do this, to not lose all her rights. I am so sorry you are still going through all of this! I would see, if for the medical reasons of this camp, if at least the visitation dates could be changed, and if the mom refuses, if that can be used against her?? I just read that the gp is the visitation monitor. I can only imagine that you would have to go through the courts to get that changed, but until then, it would have to be the gp, even if it is inconvenient. Get your lawyer working fast!

thanks for all ur answers. I'm waiting to hear from the lawyers- can ou believe they don't call back in the middle of the night? HAHA
It just makes me mad that the termination papers are in process just not finalized and filed and now this.
One thing really bothering our daughter is that the dates are the same weeks her sisters will be here for the summer (they are with their dad the other weeks). So, not only does she have to miss her camp and go somewhere she doesn't want to- all the plans her and her sisters have made are ruined.
What happens if she goes to gp house and bio mom may or may not show up for a day or 2 to visit. Then, she is left the rest of the time with her granddad who is ill by herself.
Papers just say she has to give 30 day notice. That seems pretty crappy. She hasn't given notice in 5 years (we just let her go to gp anyway cause she wanted to)
We didn't file to change supervisors after it happened on the advice of our atty who knew we were working on the termination and didn't want to rock the boat until we filed.
Can this be considered token contact? I mean, the woman has not so much as called in almost 11 months- no xmas gift, postcard, etc. Now, she wants her for 6 weeks. Our daughter hates her for the way she treats her. I'll let you know after atty calls.

I don't remember where you're at.. Tennessee.. or Alabama. The reason that I ask is because if I remember correctly Tennessee is a 6 month state.. not a year. Hopefully your attorney will give you some clues on how and what to do.

our lawyer is suggesting we not send her. Write a letter outlining our reasons along with the Dr's letter explaining the situation. Allow her to take us to court for contempt if she really wants to explain everything to a judge. At that point, we ask for a jurisdictional change from AL to TN. Hopefully the judge will understand our concerns for her health with the current supervisors and agree to change supervisors. The big thing is to offer to let her come visit here where the supervisor has been trained. That way we aren't denying visitation.
Tn is actually 4 months of no contact. We were waiting to be married a year before we filed. Our atty is looking into whether this would be considered token contact since she has still in no way made contact with the child.
The letter states that they will be spending the 6 weeks visitation with her parents (as court ordered). However, last time, she saw the child for 2 hours out of th 6 weeks. I think it's funny that her home (which we finally found from the return label) is less than 1 mile from her parents. Her husband is a child abuser (that is why her 2 other kids were taken away) and we don't want him less than a mile from her- he has already beat her in the past.

I think your lawyers suggestion sounds excellent- good luck!

I think your lawyers suggestion sounds excellent- good luck!

I agree... and wasthisclose to Pm'ing and stating that yesterday but I resisted due to the illegality of denying visitation...lol However, I have seen it done that way in situations as such. The problem with it though is although the lawyer suggests it, it's the client who takes the brunt end of the judge if the judge doesn't think it's warranted.

I have talked to atty's in Al and TN who both think that this is the best option. Neither feels that a judge would do too much with the medical proof that we have

If the lawyer is there to back you, then I would let her give the judge the chance to hear why this was the first time in soooo long that she requested it in the first place. She may not want to face a judge. If g-pa is the supervisor, and he is ill, even that can be taken into consideration, when choosing a different one, It may depend on how ill he is. I hope the judge moves the supervised visits close to you!

one big thing is that going there for 6 weeks is very hard on our daughter. she has reactive attachment disorder meaning she either forms very close quick bonds or none at all. She is the very close bond former. Being away from us and her family for 6 weeks is devastating to her. She ends up spending all day with her grandfather who works on cars in his garage. Her grandma is at work and her momma isn't around. Quite a boring summer for a 12yo. Plus, she has the agony of knowing her step sisters are here and with us and doing all the things we planned on doing in the summer. I just hope the letter works. It spells out a lot. Anyone who wants to read it and give me some input- that would be great. Just PM me

Ok- on the advice of both our AL and TN lawyers, we mailed the letter with a copy of the Dr's note.
One thing our TN atty is telling us - we were going to file the TPR in TN as that is where child lives- is that the jurisdiction issue has to be settled first as she doesn't want that thrown out on a technicality.
My question- can you file to change jurisdiction without filing anything else? We were told if she files contempt in AL we can ask for a change of jurisdiction to TN. But, if she doesn't file anything, can we still ask for a change? Just request a change of jurisdiction with no pending motion?

Ok- on the advice of both our AL and TN lawyers, we mailed the letter with a copy of the Dr's note.
One thing our TN atty is telling us - we were going to file the TPR in TN as that is where child lives- is that the jurisdiction issue has to be settled first as she doesn't want that thrown out on a technicality.
My question- can you file to change jurisdiction without filing anything else? We were told if she files contempt in AL we can ask for a change of jurisdiction to TN. But, if she doesn't file anything, can we still ask for a change? Just request a change of jurisdiction with no pending motion?


ewww.. I can't swear on it but I'm pretty sure you can. Isn't that domesticating? Tn should take it over as it's the residence of the child and the only thing that AL would reside over is any CS issues.

well, got an email from grandma telling me that they are going to pick up child and that I need to back off. HELLO???? there's the pot calling the kettle black. No contact from biomom. If biomom has to be supervised by grandparents and we tell grandparents they can't come on our property (email was threatening) then what happens? How do they pick her up? I know grandma has no leg to stand on at all and is just blowing smoke, but that woman tried to bring my bio kids into the situation! That is a great way to p*ss me off. And she does it after hours so I can't ask my atty whether to respond or not UGH!!!!!

well, got an email from grandma telling me that they are going to pick up child and that I need to back off. HELLO???? there's the pot calling the kettle black. No contact from biomom. If biomom has to be supervised by grandparents and we tell grandparents they can't come on our property (email was threatening) then what happens? How do they pick her up? I know grandma has no leg to stand on at all and is just blowing smoke, but that woman tried to bring my bio kids into the situation! That is a great way to p*ss me off. And she does it after hours so I can't ask my atty whether to respond or not UGH!!!!!

First off, are they picking up the child for bio mom to see them, or just for them to pick them up for them??? If you do not hear from the bio mom, and they are in the picture only as supervisors for biomoms visits, you can say no until the mom lets you know it is for her to see them (unless you guys are not to be talking to bio mom, and it has to be arranged via the grandparents). Grandparents have little rights outside what a judge gives them. I am under the impression that the only rights they have, are to supervise visits between bio mom and the kids. If the courts say that they can pick up the child, then you can only tell them no, if there is a court order that says you are allowed to do that, when they are getting the child for visits (like a protective order). If you say no, and there is no order of protection, then it can be used against you. I would tell them, they are not going to pick up the child until xx time, and give yourself enough time to call your attorney!! I would also ask the attorney for a phone number to reach him/her in an emergency like this, so you know what to do.

our lawyer is suggesting we not send her. Write a letter outlining our reasons along with the Dr's letter explaining the situation. Allow her to take us to court for contempt if she really wants to explain everything to a judge. At that point, we ask for a jurisdictional change from AL to TN. Hopefully the judge will understand our concerns for her health with the current supervisors and agree to change supervisors. The big thing is to offer to let her come visit here where the supervisor has been trained. That way we aren't denying visitation.
Tn is actually 4 months of no contact. We were waiting to be married a year before we filed. Our atty is looking into whether this would be considered token contact since she has still in no way made contact with the child.
The letter states that they will be spending the 6 weeks visitation with her parents (as court ordered). However, last time, she saw the child for 2 hours out of th 6 weeks. I think it's funny that her home (which we finally found from the return label) is less than 1 mile from her parents. Her husband is a child abuser (that is why her 2 other kids were taken away) and we don't want him less than a mile from her- he has already beat her in the past.

Reading this, since the attorneys are saying no, then tell them no until you talk to them. Remember the attorney wants her to take you to court for contempt, and be in the situation where she has explain everything. Do not let the parents bully you!! THEY can do nothing, she has to do it, as the bio mom! Anyhow, give them a time to show up (like 6 pm) and go to a friends, so you are not home until then. Call the attorneys and ask what to do. IF they tell you do not hand them over, call them from a pay phone, tell them no, stay away from home. If they say let them get the children, then be home at 6 pm for them to get them. The courts say what day, you can say what time, if it falls in that day! Don't let them force you to hand over the children before you get the advise of your attorney! Leave bright and early, so they do not wake you up at 6 am to get them! Good luck!!

well, got an email from grandma telling me that they are going to pick up child and that I need to back off. HELLO???? there's the pot calling the kettle black. No contact from biomom. If biomom has to be supervised by grandparents and we tell grandparents they can't come on our property (email was threatening) then what happens? How do they pick her up? I know grandma has no leg to stand on at all and is just blowing smoke, but that woman tried to bring my bio kids into the situation! That is a great way to p*ss me off. And she does it after hours so I can't ask my atty whether to respond or not UGH!!!!!

Make a copy of that email, read it to the lawyer, if it is enough to get a protective order, they will tell you!

the order states that she had to give 30 days notice. gp are supervisors only. postmark was 5/1. want to get her 5/29. not 30 days. to me, that means that letter is not valid and she would have to send another that is at least 30 days out. Our daughter is hurt and furious that they said- just make her have her bday party another day. Hello- when you are 11, your bday party is pretty important and to have your gp pretty much say it isn't important (after refusing to send a xmas present)- that hurts.
there are no protective orders against us or bio mom. Can we say gp are not allowed on our property?
Our plan is not to be there that day at all. i figure they will come to my work and want to know where she is. I think I'll say- "I wouldn't know. I'm out of it. Please leave", lol.

the order states that she had to give 30 days notice. gp are supervisors only. postmark was 5/1. want to get her 5/29. not 30 days. to me, that means that letter is not valid and she would have to send another that is at least 30 days out. Our daughter is hurt and furious that they said- just make her have her bday party another day. Hello- when you are 11, your bday party is pretty important and to have your gp pretty much say it isn't important (after refusing to send a xmas present)- that hurts.
there are no protective orders against us or bio mom. Can we say gp are not allowed on our property?
Our plan is not to be there that day at all. i figure they will come to my work and want to know where she is. I think I'll say- "I wouldn't know. I'm out of it. Please leave", lol.

I do not know, that is why you need to speak to your attorney about this, but I do know that you can tell your co workers that if they show up at your work, that they are all to tell them that you have the day off, in fact, I would take the day off! Why let the grief show up at your work! Are the grandparents the ones who are supposed to get the children when it is time for a visit?

Are they coming to get the child for the 6 weeks visit?

letter from bio mom said all 3 of them were coming. mom has to be supervised by them and they have no authority to get her, so i guess all 3 are planning on coming.

letter from bio mom said all 3 of them were coming. mom has to be supervised by them and they have no authority to get her, so i guess all 3 are planning on coming.

OK, then game plan in play. Don't go to work, don't be home, tell them 6 pm, then either you are there at 6 pm to hand over child, or say no (make sure child is at a friends house when you do this), depending on what the answer is by your lawyers, and if they can or can not include the police in this matter, ask your attorneys this please. Whatever you do, do not give them the child until you know, with your lawyers help, what they can do if you say no, can they involve the police and get the child anyways, and can you not allow any of them on your property ever. Oh, what was the threat?

doesn't the fact that she has to give 30 days notice (in court papers) and she didn't- proven by postmark I have mean that even if they did show up, we wouldn't have to give her over. If she didn't follow the rules, then we shouldn't be in contempt. And, we will be at the bday party until 9:30 or so that night. But I have to go to work- I cannot miss at the end of the month.

also, I didn't think the police could forcibly remove the child- just note that they were there and the child wasn't or refused to go? Would they really drag a child kicking and screaming out of the house?

also, I didn't think the police could forcibly remove the child- just note that they were there and the child wasn't or refused to go? Would they really drag a child kicking and screaming out of the house?

Honey, I am not sure what the police will do, except enforce court orders. If they feel they are, then yes, even kicking and screaming, they would not drag her out, but they will demand that YOU enforce the order. I think if you show them the paper work, and the date of notice, they may not say another word, except to them which will be take them to court.

doesn't the fact that she has to give 30 days notice (in court papers) and she didn't- proven by postmark I have mean that even if they did show up, we wouldn't have to give her over. If she didn't follow the rules, then we shouldn't be in contempt. And, we will be at the bday party until 9:30 or so that night. But I have to go to work- I cannot miss at the end of the month.

I am right there with you on your thoughts, but you must get any of this confirmed with your lawyers. Make sure you do exactly what they tell you to do, if they show up with or without the police. You will even need to know from them, at what point could or should YOU call the police on THEM! I just want you to make sure that you have a game plan mapped out with your lawyers, that cover all the different scenerios that they could create, and that you keep the law on your side 100%, so everything that happens can be used against them and not you. Find out what you can do if they show up at your work. See if your boss would be nice enough to ask them to leave, so you do not even have to speak a word to them at work. See if they come to harrass you, at what point could you call the police on them, wether it be at home or at work.

also, I didn't think the police could forcibly remove the child- just note that they were there and the child wasn't or refused to go? Would they really drag a child kicking and screaming out of the house?

Well here is an example, if you are evicted from your house, the court papers that say you have to be out say on Monday, is enforced by a sherrif, he reads the paperwork, and tells you, it says you have to be out, and the sherrif will make sure you leave, or you are tresspassing. I imagine if they could make a family leave thier home, they could somehow make a family obey a court order about custody and visitation. I Know if you go to pick up your child, and they refuse to hand that child over, that the police can force them to do so. That is all I know, I do not know to what extent they will go to, I guess every situation varies. I imagine if you prove that you are within your rights to keep your daughter, then they would not force you to hand the child over, but I am not an officer, nor do I know the laws on this. This is why you must go through with your lawyers, everything, so you know everything. I can only give you advice.

my experience with court orders and police is- the police will strongly advise that everyne follow the orders- but especially when there is any vagueness in the order AT ALL- such as in this case with the 30 day notice- then they won't do anything but document the call out, otherwise the will advise that it is a civial matter and the judge must determine what's going on and who is in the wrong- especially when there is not wording in the order authorizing the police to enforce the order