Sorry for the new thread - Google's acting weird this morning.


Michaela posted:

"I change my thoughts and or perceptions and my
life changes."


I have been testing out a new theory lately, and it plays into the
advice I've been suggesting to Amy: if by changing my thoughts and
perceptions, can I raise my own natural libido?

DF and I are past the early infatuation stage and I have noticed a
slip in my libido. Our relationship is still rock solid so it has
nothing to do with what's going on outside the bedroom.

At first it made me depressed, but then I got to thinking, "Do I have
to settle for this? Do I have to accept that everyone has a certain
setpoint and that's that? Or do I have control, within my own mind, to
raise my natural libido?"

I got to thinking about when we were first dating, and I had this
epiphany: my desire wasn't going through the roof solely because of
what DF did and how he courted me back then. Sure he was romantic,
attentive, attractive, and made me feel attractive, and none of that
hurts. He's *still* all those things and does all those things ... yet
my desire slowly started to slip.

I asked myself, what is the difference, if it's not him? And it's me.
I was not working as hard, in my own imagination. I was not spending
hours in delicious anticipation. I was not fantasizing about him. I
was not taking care how I dressed for our dates, and was starting to
feel unattractive myself (despite what DF insists). I was not making
the effort to find time when I wasn't too tired.

*I* was getting lazy, not him! And it was all in my mind.

So this is what I've been working on and experimenting with myself,
and it does take work to re-train the thought process, but I can
happily say that it works. The trick, I think, is not accepting the
idea that a lowering of natural libido is inevitable for relationships
and women in particular. It takes a major attitude shift.

It's been a revelation for me, and an empowering one.

jen

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0409080423.65e9ec62@posting.google.c om... Sorry for the new thread - Google's acting weird this morning. Michaela posted: "I change my thoughts and or perceptions and my life changes." I have been testing out a new theory lately, and it plays into the advice I've been suggesting to Amy: if by changing my thoughts and perceptions, can I raise my own natural libido? DF and I are past the early infatuation stage and I have noticed a slip in my libido. Our relationship is still rock solid so it has nothing to do with what's going on outside the bedroom. At first it made me depressed, but then I got to thinking, "Do I have to settle for this? Do I have to accept that everyone has a certain setpoint and that's that? Or do I have control, within my own mind, to raise my natural libido?" I got to thinking about when we were first dating, and I had this epiphany: my desire wasn't going through the roof solely because of what DF did and how he courted me back then. Sure he was romantic, attentive, attractive, and made me feel attractive, and none of that hurts. He's *still* all those things and does all those things ... yet my desire slowly started to slip. I asked myself, what is the difference, if it's not him? And it's me. I was not working as hard, in my own imagination. I was not spending hours in delicious anticipation. I was not fantasizing about him. I was not taking care how I dressed for our dates, and was starting to feel unattractive myself (despite what DF insists). I was not making the effort to find time when I wasn't too tired. *I* was getting lazy, not him! And it was all in my mind. So this is what I've been working on and experimenting with myself, and it does take work to re-train the thought process, but I can happily say that it works. The trick, I think, is not accepting the idea that a lowering of natural libido is inevitable for relationships and women in particular. It takes a major attitude shift. It's been a revelation for me, and an empowering one.

I firmly believe we are largely in control of most aspects of our lives,
from our emotions to our moods. Of course, from time to time things happen
that jar us, but you can choose how you react, and to a large extent, how
you feel.

The problem is, like you stated, it's not easy and takes hard work. Leaving
most people out.

Obvious exceptions for things like depression, where the brain is lacking
chemicals and such.

JWB <jwb3333remove@excite.com> wrote:
I firmly believe we are largely in control of most aspects of our lives, from our emotions to our moods. Of course, from time to time things happen that jar us, but you can choose how you react, and to a large extent, how you feel. The problem is, like you stated, it's not easy and takes hard work. Leaving most people out. Obvious exceptions for things like depression, where the brain is lacking chemicals and such.

Even there, it is usually up to the depressed person whether to get well
or not. Most people can get better if they take their meds and work on
themselves. It's *harder* because depression saps your motivation, but
it can be done (disclaimer for the rare person who is treatment
resistant and really can't get better).

It is possible to affect libido.

Eating more increases libido in the short term. Eating less has the
opposite effect.

My experience is that if I am sleep deprived, I have zero libido.

If I sleep well and have some free time, I have greater libido.

Anxiety is a big libido killer for me.

Good mood increases libido.

i

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0409080423.65e9ec62@posting.google.c om... Sorry for the new thread - Google's acting weird this morning. Michaela posted: "I change my thoughts and or perceptions and my life changes." I have been testing out a new theory lately, and it plays into the advice I've been suggesting to Amy: if by changing my thoughts and perceptions, can I raise my own natural libido?

In other words can thoughts and perceptions change biology? Doesn't seem
possible but its worth a try, Jen.

Amy

"Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:<HxM%c.24078$D7.21102@news-server.bigpond.net.au>... "shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c8cb5319.0409080423.65e9ec62@posting.google.c om... Sorry for the new thread - Google's acting weird this morning. Michaela posted: "I change my thoughts and or perceptions and my life changes." I have been testing out a new theory lately, and it plays into the advice I've been suggesting to Amy: if by changing my thoughts and perceptions, can I raise my own natural libido? In other words can thoughts and perceptions change biology? Doesn't seem possible but its worth a try, Jen. Amy

Thoughts and perceptions certainly change something.

My family and I recently went on vacation. The weather was terrible,
the accommodations didn't even come close to what was pictured in the
brochure and on the third day I found myself inside a crowded building
with a headache doing "crafts" with the kids.

I'm not a "crafts" guy.

My wife, who had planned the vacation and chose this destination over
one I had lobbied for, looked at me and said, "I'm sorry, I can tell
you're not having a good time".

I wasn't, but it was because I was focusing on all those things that
hadn't lived up to my expectations instead of all the things that that
place had to offer.

I made a conscious choice to do what it took to enjoy myself. In spite
of the weather, it was a beautiful setting. There was also a lot of
fun things to do, -not necessarily things I had expected to be doing
on that vacation, but things I enjoy nevertheless.

Anyway, I took a short nap to shake off the headache and from that
point on I had a good time. I could have just as easily chosen to
wallow in what that vacation was not doing for me.

Confidence and attitude are the keys to success and happiness.

"BottleRocket" Thoughts and perceptions certainly change something.

<snip>
I made a conscious choice to do what it took to enjoy myself. In spite of the weather, it was a beautiful setting. There was also a lot of fun things to do, -not necessarily things I had expected to be doing on that vacation, but things I enjoy nevertheless. Anyway, I took a short nap to shake off the headache and from that point on I had a good time. I could have just as easily chosen to wallow in what that vacation was not doing for me. Confidence and attitude are the keys to success and happiness.

Blood pressure can be affected by mental attitude too.

Amy

"Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:<q2W%c.24669$D7.12485@news-server.bigpond.net.au>... "BottleRocket" Thoughts and perceptions certainly change something. <snip> I made a conscious choice to do what it took to enjoy myself. In spite of the weather, it was a beautiful setting. There was also a lot of fun things to do, -not necessarily things I had expected to be doing on that vacation, but things I enjoy nevertheless. Anyway, I took a short nap to shake off the headache and from that point on I had a good time. I could have just as easily chosen to wallow in what that vacation was not doing for me. Confidence and attitude are the keys to success and happiness. Blood pressure can be affected by mental attitude too. Amy

Yup.

I've been asking myself, "Is it the increased libido of early
courtship that drove my thoughts and perceptions, or the thoughts and
perceptions of early courtship that increased my libido?" Which is the
cause and which the effect?

I think ultimately the answer is probably that it's all
interconnected. Thoughts and perceptions can increase libido, which in
turn creates more good thoughts and perceptions, which in turn
increases libido even more.

jen

BottleRocket wrote: "Amy Lou" wrote "shinypenny" wrote "I change my thoughts and or perceptions and my life changes." I have been testing out a new theory lately, and it plays into the advice I've been suggesting to Amy: if by changing my thoughts and perceptions, can I raise my own natural libido? In other words can thoughts and perceptions change biology? Doesn't seem possible but its worth a try, Jen. Amy Thoughts and perceptions certainly change something. My family and I recently went on vacation. The weather was terrible, the accommodations didn't even come close to what was pictured in the brochure and on the third day I found myself inside a crowded building with a headache doing "crafts" with the kids. I'm not a "crafts" guy. My wife, who had planned the vacation and chose this destination over one I had lobbied for, looked at me and said, "I'm sorry, I can tell you're not having a good time". I wasn't, but it was because I was focusing on all those things that hadn't lived up to my expectations instead of all the things that that place had to offer.

It seems that what one focuses on grows.
I made a conscious choice to do what it took to enjoy myself. In spite of the weather, it was a beautiful setting. There was also a lot of fun things to do, -not necessarily things I had expected to be doing on that vacation, but things I enjoy nevertheless. Anyway, I took a short nap to shake off the headache and from that point on I had a good time. I could have just as easily chosen to wallow in what that vacation was not doing for me.

Looks to me as if you made an excellent choice! It's not always
easy to do the "right" thing.
Confidence and attitude are the keys to success and happiness.

Don't know if you'll see it in the same light, but I feel what you
did was truly loving. Had you chosen to wallow you might have
ended up making your wife feel guilty (but that would in turn
be her choice: whether she was going to feel guilty or not) for
overriding your choice of vacation destination.

To me the choice you made was not only loving toward your
wife and kids but also to yourself.

Thanks for this post.

- Michaela

"shinypenny" I've been asking myself, "Is it the increased libido of early courtship that drove my thoughts and perceptions, or the thoughts and perceptions of early courtship that increased my libido?" Which is the cause and which the effect? I think ultimately the answer is probably that it's all interconnected. Thoughts and perceptions can increase libido, which in turn creates more good thoughts and perceptions, which in turn increases libido even more.

The question is can you keep those same thoughts and perceptions around for
long? During courting couples usually deny the negative points about each
other. After you've been together for a while the rose coloured glasses come
off and you see your partner more realistically, warts and all. Your
thoughts and perceptions change. How can you prevent that?

Amy

"Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:<dQ30d.25009$D7.21620@news-server.bigpond.net.au>... "shinypenny" I've been asking myself, "Is it the increased libido of early courtship that drove my thoughts and perceptions, or the thoughts and perceptions of early courtship that increased my libido?" Which is the cause and which the effect? I think ultimately the answer is probably that it's all interconnected. Thoughts and perceptions can increase libido, which in turn creates more good thoughts and perceptions, which in turn increases libido even more. The question is can you keep those same thoughts and perceptions around for long? During courting couples usually deny the negative points about each other. After you've been together for a while the rose coloured glasses come off and you see your partner more realistically, warts and all. Your thoughts and perceptions change. How can you prevent that? Amy


Deliberately put the rose-colored glasses back on. :-)

I'm not saying you deliberately overlook anything that's detrimental
and serious (like your partner beats you or is an alcoholic). I am
saying it's okay to re-train your thoughts over the little nit-picky
annoyances, the habits and characteristics you once thought were
"cute" and now drive you crazy. Try re-training yourself to view them
as cute and endearing again!

jen

"Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:dQ30d.25009$D7.21620@news-server.bigpond.net.au... The question is can you keep those same thoughts and perceptions around for long? During courting couples usually deny the negative points about each other. After you've been together for a while the rose coloured glasses come off and you see your partner more realistically, warts and all. Your thoughts and perceptions change. How can you prevent that?

You don't, but you don't allow the negative qualities to outweigh the
positive. You drop the expectation that your partner must be absolutely
perfect (and yourself, which also takes a bit of introspection) and accept
your partner as he/she is. Hopefully, you married for the right reasons so
the marriage lasts one the glasses come off. :)

Jess

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0409100559.6ef575bd@posting.google.c om... "Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:<dQ30d.25009$D7.21620@news-server.bigpond.net.au>... "shinypenny" I've been asking myself, "Is it the increased libido of early courtship that drove my thoughts and perceptions, or the thoughts and perceptions of early courtship that increased my libido?" Which is the cause and which the effect? I think ultimately the answer is probably that it's all interconnected. Thoughts and perceptions can increase libido, which in turn creates more good thoughts and perceptions, which in turn increases libido even more. The question is can you keep those same thoughts and perceptions around
for long? During courting couples usually deny the negative points about
each other. After you've been together for a while the rose coloured glasses
come off and you see your partner more realistically, warts and all. Your thoughts and perceptions change. How can you prevent that? Amy Deliberately put the rose-colored glasses back on. :-) I'm not saying you deliberately overlook anything that's detrimental and serious (like your partner beats you or is an alcoholic). I am saying it's okay to re-train your thoughts over the little nit-picky annoyances, the habits and characteristics you once thought were "cute" and now drive you crazy. Try re-training yourself to view them as cute and endearing again!

You are kidding yourself, Jen! Wouldn't it be more likely to accept that
your partner isn't perfect and love him as that new person you see him for?
This is part of why relationships mature. You cannot keep seeing your
partner in the same light as you did when you first knew him. The longer you
stay together the *more* you know about each other.

Amy

"The Watsons" <warpedsystems@dcrc.net> wrote in message
news:Jmp0d.151232$4o.63027@fed1read01... "Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:dQ30d.25009$D7.21620@news-server.bigpond.net.au... The question is can you keep those same thoughts and perceptions around for long? During courting couples usually deny the negative points about
each other. After you've been together for a while the rose coloured glasses come off and you see your partner more realistically, warts and all. Your thoughts and perceptions change. How can you prevent that? You don't, but you don't allow the negative qualities to outweigh the positive. You drop the expectation that your partner must be absolutely perfect (and yourself, which also takes a bit of introspection) and accept your partner as he/she is. Hopefully, you married for the right reasons so the marriage lasts one the glasses come off. :)

Yeah, in other words you see your partner as quite different to how you
originally saw him. You still love him but not in exactly the same way as
you did at first.

Amy

"Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:Odx0d.26545$D7.20066@news-server.bigpond.net.au... Yeah, in other words you see your partner as quite different to how you originally saw him. You still love him but not in exactly the same way as you did at first.

*ponders*

Let me get to the bottom of the coffecup.

Jess

"The Watsons" <warpedsystems@dcrc.net> wrote in message
news:9kE0d.158058$4o.112158@fed1read01... "Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:Odx0d.26545$D7.20066@news-server.bigpond.net.au... Yeah, in other words you see your partner as quite different to how you originally saw him. You still love him but not in exactly the same way
as you did at first. *ponders* Let me get to the bottom of the coffecup.

Gee that must be one huge cup.:)

You know an apple wakes you up better than a cup of coffee don't you?

Amy (who has found she wakes up better with a breakfast of muesli, juice and
only one cup of coffee, than toast and two cups of coffee)

"Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:OIM0d.27263$D7.16329@news-server.bigpond.net.au... You know an apple wakes you up better than a cup of coffee don't you?

The blasphemy! :)
Amy (who has found she wakes up better with a breakfast of muesli, juice and only one cup of coffee, than toast and two cups of coffee)

"Ooh, lookit the shiny thing" ;)

Jess

"The Watsons"
You know an apple wakes you up better than a cup of coffee don't you? The blasphemy! :) Amy (who has found she wakes up better with a breakfast of muesli, juice and only one cup of coffee, than toast and two cups of coffee) "Ooh, lookit the shiny thing" ;) Jess

Coffee is really taking off in this country now. There are coffee shops
springing up all over the place. McCafe is moving in to all the McDs. Pity
they weren't around when I was younger.

Amy (who has turned into her mother - sorry about the preaching - but you
know what they say - the reformed drinker is the worst kind)

"Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:kPQ0d.27671$D7.20653@news-server.bigpond.net.au... Coffee is really taking off in this country now. There are coffee shops springing up all over the place. McCafe is moving in to all the McDs. Pity they weren't around when I was younger.

We've got a pipe dream to puddlejump and see what's changed-some of the
stories he tells me about when he was over there are pretty different from
my experience, and we almost waved at each other as I flew out and he flew
in. Maybe this time we can come on over and see you too. :)

Jess

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0409120523.4918d07c@posting.google.c om... What I was trying to demonstrate with my analogy is that often it's our own attitude that changes, not our partner. In the example the husband has remained the same scruffy person since courting, but the wife no longer sees this as an endearing quality. She would be happy to change him. I'm thinking that putting on the rose-colored glasses *helps* her eventually reach loving acceptance. It's "faking it until you make it." It's stopping the habit of your negative thoughts, and replacing them with a positive spin. When she finds herself thinking, "Ugh, if he got rid of that scruff he might land a better job" she could stop herself and think, "BUT, he's always been a nonconformist and that's one thing I have always loved about him. And undoubtedly he'd thrive if he could find a job that will accept and admire his nonconformity."

That's the one. :)

Jess

"Bill in Co." <surly9acurmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:zD%0d.14029$w%6.2820@newsread1.news.pas.earth link.net...
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but don't most women marry with the hope and expectation of changing (read: improving) their spouse? (I'm perfectly serious here) Perhaps some aren't aware of it on a conscious level, but
I think it's true. Don't you?

I think people of both genders marry with the expectation that their partner
will continue to grow and mature over time. This expectation is NOT the
same as expecting to change their spouse, but I think the two are sometimes
confused.

I think this might be particularly true of people who marry fairly young -
many can see that their partner has a lot of potential, and there is an
expectation that educations will be finished, jobs/careers will be launched,
skills will be learned, working/raising a family/caring for a home will grow
in importance, and partying will diminish in importance, etc. (These seem
like reasonable expectations, btw.) When the normally expected growth does
not occur, or only occurs in one partner, it becomes a real problem, and the
inclination is for the "growing" partner to try to nudge the "non-growing"
partner along. I don't think this is the same as expecting to actively
change your spouse, though - the initial expectation was that the spouse
would "grow up" (although the two might well have a different understanding
of what it means to be a grownup)

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 15:20:26 -0400, Joy
<joydoesntlikespam@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote: "Bill in Co." <surly9acurmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:zD%0d.14029$w%6.2820@newsread1.news.pas.earth link.net... Correct me if I'm wrong here, but don't most women marry with the hope and expectation of changing (read: improving) their spouse? (I'm perfectly serious here) Perhaps some aren't aware of it on a conscious level, but I think it's true. Don't you? I think people of both genders marry with the expectation that their partner will continue to grow and mature over time. This expectation is NOT the same as expecting to change their spouse, but I think the two are sometimes confused.

I don't believe so. I think women marry men on their potential, and men
marry women for what they are. Women want their men to change and grow.
Men want their women to stay exactly the same.

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

"Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message
news:slrnck9nhv.o8.tony@home.cigardiary.com... On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 15:20:26 -0400, Joy <joydoesntlikespam@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote: "Bill in Co." <surly9acurmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:zD%0d.14029$w%6.2820@newsread1.news.pas.earth link.net... Correct me if I'm wrong here, but don't most women marry with the hope
and expectation of changing (read: improving) their spouse? (I'm
perfectly serious here) Perhaps some aren't aware of it on a conscious level,
but I think it's true. Don't you? I think people of both genders marry with the expectation that their
partner will continue to grow and mature over time. This expectation is NOT the same as expecting to change their spouse, but I think the two are
sometimes confused. I don't believe so. I think women marry men on their potential, and men marry women for what they are. Women want their men to change and grow. Men want their women to stay exactly the same.

Maybe. But I do think it is common for one partner - typically but not
always the woman - to just assume that with an adult marriage will follow
adult responsibilities, and that "immature pursuits" will die away.
Unfortunately, what one person thinks of as "immature pursuits" the other
person thinks of as essential to the quality of life. One example would be
the stereotypical young wife who is pissed off because hubby insists on
going out with the boys for a few beers on some frequent basis. She
probably didn't marry him thinking she'd break him of that habit -because it
probably didn't dawn on her that he'd even consider keeping it up. To
somebody like her, that is the kind of thing a single person does, not a
married person - so she would have expected that after they got married, he
would automatically stop because that is how she thinks married people live.
This is not the same as her expecting to stop it - to her, it was just part
and parcel of married life.

I'm not sure I've expressed this clearly at all - does it make sense?

Joy wrote: "Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:slrnck9nhv.o8.tony@home.cigardiary.com... On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 15:20:26 -0400, Joy <joydoesntlikespam@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote: "Bill in Co." <surly9acurmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:zD%0d.14029$w%6.2820@newsread1.news.pas.earth link.net...> Correct me if I'm wrong here, but don't most women marry with the hope
and> expectation of changing (read: improving) their spouse? (I'm
perfectly> serious here) Perhaps some aren't aware of it on a conscious level,
but I> think it's true. Don't you? I think people of both genders marry with the expectation that their
partner will continue to grow and mature over time. This expectation is NOT the same as expecting to change their spouse, but I think the two are
sometimes confused. I don't believe so. I think women marry men on their potential, and men marry women for what they are. Women want their men to change and grow. Men want their women to stay exactly the same. Maybe. But I do think it is common for one partner - typically but not always the woman - to just assume that with an adult marriage will follow adult responsibilities, and that "immature pursuits" will die away. Unfortunately, what one person thinks of as "immature pursuits" the other person thinks of as essential to the quality of life. One example would
be the stereotypical young wife who is pissed off because hubby insists on going out with the boys for a few beers on some frequent basis. She probably didn't marry him thinking she'd break him of that habit -because
it probably didn't dawn on her that he'd even consider keeping it up. To somebody like her, that is the kind of thing a single person does, not a married person - so she would have expected that after they got married,
he would automatically stop because that is how she thinks married people
live. This is not the same as her expecting to stop it - to her, it was just
part and parcel of married life. I'm not sure I've expressed this clearly at all - does it make sense?

Yes, but I think you've only covered one aspect of it. That may be part of
it in some cases (and I think you are relating this to your own experience),
but not all cases. Not all guys become so irresponsible when they have a
family. And yet, still, the wife wants to change (read: improve) the
spouse. I think it's part of the fairytale Princess Syndrome. Now in
some cases that may indeed be justified, but the other side of the coin is:
Acceptance of who the person is (assuming he's not being an irresponsible
jughead as you have mentioned here).

"Bill in Co." <surly9acurmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:HH51d.1870$_G4.939@newsread3.news.pas.earthli nk.net... Joy wrote:
Yes, but I think you've only covered one aspect of it. That may be part
of it in some cases (and I think you are relating this to your own
experience),

Sure - it is the only personal experience I have to draw on!
but not all cases. Not all guys become so irresponsible when they have a

What I was trying to convey was not "becoming" irresponsible - but rather
remaining so.
family. And yet, still, the wife wants to change (read: improve)

I'm just suggesting that sometimes this is due to expectations - in the
example given, she expected him to become more family oriented, and less
into partying. The original contention was that women marry intending to
change him - and I'm just pointing out that sometimes they marry expecting
change to naturally follow with the new responsibilities, and in this case
attempts to change the spouse can originate *after* the marriage, rather
than before.

the spouse. I think it's part of the fairytale Princess Syndrome.

Maybe. I just have trouble relating to that, because I'm not Cinderella,
and I wasn't expecting Prince Charming. I did expect sobriety, though.

Now in some cases that may indeed be justified, but the other side of the coin
is: Acceptance of who the person is (assuming he's not being an irresponsible jughead as you have mentioned here).

Tony Miller wrote:
I don't believe so. I think women marry men on their potential, and men marry women for what they are. Women want their men to change and grow. Men want their women to stay exactly the same.

Any man with minimal brain power knows that a living breathing human
being won't stay exactly the same over time.

Men who believe their wives should stay the same deserve to be
disappointed, as do women who think their husbands should change in the
exact direction that they want.

Joy wrote:
Of course it shouldn't happen - but I think it does, a lot - possibly more often than the stereotypical "intends to change him when they marry". People tend to expect marriage to be like the model that they grew up with, and be completely oblivious to the idea that their partner might not see it the same way. This is one of the reasons why it important to know your partners background.

Yes, one of the biggest problems in marriage is unrealistic
expectations. Knowing your partners background is important, but more
important is to know that your expectations aren't necessarily the
standard for how a marriage should be. It's very important to realize
that when our partner has a difference of opinion with us it doesn't
make them "wrong" and us "right". When a young woman says she expects
her husband to become "mature", she is putting him and his preferences
down, and holding her idea of marriage as the ideal that he should fit
in. That is not conducive to a harmonious relationship. If we treat our
differences as preferences without such heavy value judgment, we can
reach acceptable compromises much easier.

Ellie wrote: Joy wrote: Of course it shouldn't happen - but I think it does, a lot - possibly
more often than the stereotypical "intends to change him when they marry". People tend to expect marriage to be like the model that they grew up
with, and be completely oblivious to the idea that their partner might not see
it the same way. This is one of the reasons why it important to know your partners background. Yes, one of the biggest problems in marriage is unrealistic expectations.

I'd go one beyond that even. One of the biggest problems in LIFE is
unrealistic expectations.

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 20:27:32 -0400, Joy
<joydoesntlikespam@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote:
Maybe. I just have trouble relating to that, because I'm not Cinderella, and I wasn't expecting Prince Charming. I did expect sobriety, though.

Let me get this straight... You married a drunk expecting him to sober up
after he was married?!?!?

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 20:10:05 -0400, Joy
<joydoesntlikespam@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote: "Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:slrnck9nhv.o8.tony@home.cigardiary.com... On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 15:20:26 -0400, Joy <joydoesntlikespam@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote: "Bill in Co." <surly9acurmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:zD%0d.14029$w%6.2820@newsread1.news.pas.earth link.net...> Correct me if I'm wrong here, but don't most women marry with the hope and> expectation of changing (read: improving) their spouse? (I'm perfectly> serious here) Perhaps some aren't aware of it on a conscious level, but I> think it's true. Don't you? I think people of both genders marry with the expectation that their partner will continue to grow and mature over time. This expectation is NOT the same as expecting to change their spouse, but I think the two are sometimes confused. I don't believe so. I think women marry men on their potential, and men marry women for what they are. Women want their men to change and grow. Men want their women to stay exactly the same. Maybe. But I do think it is common for one partner - typically but not always the woman - to just assume that with an adult marriage will follow adult responsibilities, and that "immature pursuits" will die away.

I believe you're a fool if you marry someone who has not already given up
"immature pursuits".
Unfortunately, what one person thinks of as "immature pursuits" the other person thinks of as essential to the quality of life. One example would be the stereotypical young wife who is pissed off because hubby insists on going out with the boys for a few beers on some frequent basis. She probably didn't marry him thinking she'd break him of that habit -because it probably didn't dawn on her that he'd even consider keeping it up. To somebody like her, that is the kind of thing a single person does, not a married person - so she would have expected that after they got married, he would automatically stop because that is how she thinks married people live. This is not the same as her expecting to stop it - to her, it was just part and parcel of married life.

It was a silly assumption that was never negotiated.
I'm not sure I've expressed this clearly at all - does it make sense?

Sure, it makes sense.

By the same token when they are dating she can't keep her hands off him.
He expects that same level of horniness throughout the marriage. This is
an example of a guy expecting something to remain the same.

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 00:40:24 GMT, Ellie
<ellie_first@hotmail.com> wrote: Tony Miller wrote: I don't believe so. I think women marry men on their potential, and men marry women for what they are. Women want their men to change and grow. Men want their women to stay exactly the same. Any man with minimal brain power knows that a living breathing human being won't stay exactly the same over time. Men who believe their wives should stay the same deserve to be disappointed, as do women who think their husbands should change in the exact direction that they want.

I didn't say it was logical, or right. I implied it was typical. Do you
disagree?

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

Tony Miller wrote: On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 20:27:32 -0400, Joy <joydoesntlikespam@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote: Maybe. I just have trouble relating to that, because I'm not Cinderella, and I wasn't expecting Prince Charming. I did expect sobriety, though. Let me get this straight... You married a drunk expecting him to sober up after he was married?!?!? -Tony

What are you talking about? She never said she married a drunk. Just
incredible.

"The Watsons" <warpedsystems@dcrc.net> wrote in message
news:I0_0d.158737$4o.2546@fed1read01... "Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:kPQ0d.27671$D7.20653@news-server.bigpond.net.au... Coffee is really taking off in this country now. There are coffee shops springing up all over the place. McCafe is moving in to all the McDs.
Pity they weren't around when I was younger. We've got a pipe dream to puddlejump and see what's changed-some of the stories he tells me about when he was over there are pretty different from my experience, and we almost waved at each other as I flew out and he flew in. Maybe this time we can come on over and see you too. :)

You've been to Australia before?

Amy

"Joy" Maybe. But I do think it is common for one partner - typically but not always the woman - to just assume that with an adult marriage will follow adult responsibilities, and that "immature pursuits" will die away.

But people can be immature their whole lives! I nearly didn't marry my DH
because he was the type of person who enjoyed going out a lot more than me.
I thought that might be a problem. Turns out he changed as soon as we moved
in together. With a wife and kids to keep him amused he didn't want to live
the same way as he did when he was single.

One simply does not know for sure how life will be after marriage. A crystal
ball would be handy!

Amy

Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message
On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 00:40:24 GMT, Ellie <ellie_first@hotmail.com> wrote: Tony Miller wrote: I don't believe so. I think women marry men on their potential, and men marry women for what they are. Women want their men to change and grow. Men want their women to stay exactly the same. Any man with minimal brain power knows that a living breathing human being won't stay exactly the same over time. Men who believe their wives should stay the same deserve to be disappointed, as do women who think their husbands should change in the exact direction that they want. I didn't say it was logical, or right. I implied it was typical. Do you disagree?

Yes, I do think that most women expect their husbands to change and
grow. That is quite logical and right. Healthy humans do grow and
change. What is wrong is expecting the changes to be in the exact
direction that they want. As for men wanting their women to stay
exactly the same, well, that is beyond stupid, and I give more credit
to men to believe they really want that - at least the men that I know
are not only smart enough to know that's not realistic, they also want
partners who would grow *with* them, not some plastic doll or
something.

"Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:zMb1d.29064$D7.21263@news-server.bigpond.net.au... You've been to Australia before?

I wish, tho' I'd thought for some reason you were in England. :/

Jess

caren50@msn.com (Caren) wrote in message news:<3754f0b3.0409130615.38214f50@posting.google.com>... Ellie <ellie_first@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<qc61d.32703$bE1.17098926@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...

<snip>
Here's a different twist. I met my husband while we were both living in different states. Most of our visits were him coming to my state. We fell in love through letters and phone calls. We married 6 months later and had to be apart until I finished working on my degree. There were many things that I did not know about him until we finally got to live together. I had no idea that he watched football all day. Nor that he turned on the tv as soon as he woke up to watch the news and weather. I didn't know that he was an incredible slob either. There are a few more things that I won't mention. Would I have still married him had I Known these things? What I am guessing is that I would have talked about those issues with him beforehand and hopefully reached some kind of compromise and happily agree to marry him. What is interesting too is that over the years he watches very little tv-I actually watch it more than he does now. He watches less sports and as far as the slob factor...I have to give him a little bit of credit. His dishes usually make it to the kitchen counter and on occassion they actually make it into the sink. :-)


I guess the lesson is that it's reasonable to expect people to change,
you just can't expect them to change in any particular way (positive
or negative).

When I first read your post my immediate thought was that you should
have waited until you knew each other better, but after awhile I
realized that even things you think you're in sync on before marriage,
may turn out to be sticky issues later.

For us there have been at least two such things. One is going to
church regularly. The other one that's come up recently is how many
kids to have. Before marriage we both agreed that two or three sounded
good. Well, we have two now and we're at the "or three" part. It's
become a big deal. For a bunch of reasons, I'm quite happy with two
and I don't want a third. Having a third child has become really
important to my wife, - which has surprised me.

I was all set to get snipped but my wife talked me into waiting until
our youngest is two and asked me to keep an open mind. I agreed to
wait but told her it's very unlikely that I'll change my mind,
especially since one of the issues for me is my age and I'm not
getting any younger ;-).

"The Watsons" <warpedsystems@dcrc.net> wrote in message
news:x%l1d.158940$4o.15267@fed1read01... "Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:zMb1d.29064$D7.21263@news-server.bigpond.net.au... You've been to Australia before? I wish, tho' I'd thought for some reason you were in England. :/

Nope. Ever heard of Tasmania? What part of the world are you based in BTW?

Amy (who may not reply for a few days...we are heading out for a few days of
R & R on the east coast [that's the other side of the Pacific Puddle to
you])

"Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:VIq1d.29944$D7.15479@news-server.bigpond.net.au... "The Watsons" <warpedsystems@dcrc.net> wrote in message news:x%l1d.158940$4o.15267@fed1read01... "Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:zMb1d.29064$D7.21263@news-server.bigpond.net.au... You've been to Australia before? I wish, tho' I'd thought for some reason you were in England. :/ Nope. Ever heard of Tasmania? What part of the world are you based in BTW? Amy (who may not reply for a few days...we are heading out for a few days of R & R on the east coast [that's the other side of the Pacific Puddle to you])

School holidays? You have yours earlier than we do - ours start at the end
of this week. DS14 is spending a week in NSW with cadets so one week, at
least, will be fairly quiet and bicker-free!

I hope you get better spring weather than we've been having......
Brrrrrrrr.....

Tai

"Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:VIq1d.29944$D7.15479@news-server.bigpond.net.au... Nope. Ever heard of Tasmania? What part of the world are you based in BTW? Amy (who may not reply for a few days...we are heading out for a few days of R & R on the east coast [that's the other side of the Pacific Puddle to you])

We're in Arizona, so yeah, you're closer to the puddle than we are. :)

And yep, heard of Tasmania. :)

Jess