``... the United States has not in fact brought freedom to Iraq. It has
brought instead death, destruction and now near-chaos. ... Forget as
reasons for the war weapons of mass destruction, Iraqi support of
al-Qaida terrorists and even increased oil supplies. ... So why do
we stay?''

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04223/359100.stm

Editorial: Iraq burning / Why are we still there?

Tuesday, August 10, 2004
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette


The now five-day-long battle between American and Iraqi forces for the
city of Najaf continues, the Iraqi death toll from it rises to an
estimated 360 and the Shiite holy city comes increasingly to resemble
Three Rivers Stadium the morning after the implosion.

A question becomes more nagging: Are Iraqis, in fact, better off with
their America-brought freedom than they were under Saddam Hussein?

The United States has taken great pains not to tabulate the death toll
of Iraqis since the invasion in March of last year. It has nonetheless
been estimated by other observers to stand between 10,000 and
15,000. American forces' losses now number 931, those of other
countries, 123.

Saddam Hussein's regime killed a lot of people, mostly Kurds and
Shiites, but the death toll it exacted from the Iraqi people tailed
off after it had put down the unsuccessful Shiite and Kurd rebellions
that followed the first Gulf war 12 years ago. American and British
enforcement of no-fly zones in the north and south helped.

The damage rendered to Iraqi economic and social infrastructure,
ranging from oil installations to mosques and other holy sites,
particularly in the predominantly Shiite cities of Najaf and Karbala,
but also in the Sunni centers of Fallujah and Tikrit, may have by now
exceeded what was incurred during the Iran-Iraq war, the first Gulf
war and the rebellions.

Some of it has been Iraqi-on-Iraqi destruction, but there is almost
nothing that can match the impact of U.S. high-tech attacks,
particularly from the air, in terms of inflicting damage.

A recent unfortunate phenomenon of the 15-month U.S. occupation and
appointed Iraqi interim authority period has been the outflow of
Iraq's Christian minority from the country. They are at increasing
risk in the deteriorating security situation and menaced in a now more
politicized religious context by militant Islamic extremists, domestic
and foreign, Shiite and Sunni.

So, basically, one can argue that the United States has not in fact
brought freedom to Iraq. It has brought instead death, destruction and
now near-chaos, including forcing Christians who have lived there
since the time of Christ to flee the country to Syria, Jordan and
Lebanon.

Forget as reasons for the war weapons of mass destruction, Iraqi
support of al-Qaida terrorists and even increased oil supplies. And is
Israel really safer with a hot war being waged a few hundred miles
from its borders and the Arab world thoroughly riled up over that war?

So why do we stay? The place now called Iraq has been there in one
form or other since the dawn of recorded history. Does anyone think
the situation there will get better if we stay? Or that it will become
substantially worse if we leave? Is our presence not in fact
increasingly the bone of contention among warring Iraqis?

Sen. John Kerry and President Bush need to think very carefully about
that central question -- stay or get out -- as they as presidential
candidates consider and suggest what the United States should do next.

"Ignoramus5937" <ignoramus5937@NOSPAM.5937.invalid> wrote in message
news:cfdjut$ug0$0@pita.alt.net... ``... the United States has not in fact brought freedom to Iraq. It has brought instead death, destruction and now near-chaos. ...

AWESOME, we kicked ***, this mofo's deserved it, after sponsoring terrorism
for the past 20 years.
Ignorante you are just jealous that you ruskis got you rear and beat:)

Lik Mi Sak wrote: "Ignoramus5937" <ignoramus5937@NOSPAM.5937.invalid> wrote in message news:cfdjut$ug0$0@pita.alt.net...``... the United States has not in fact brought freedom to Iraq. It hasbrought instead death, destruction and now near-chaos. ... AWESOME, we kicked ***, this mofo's deserved it, after sponsoring terrorism for the past 20 years. Ignorante you are just jealous that you ruskis got you rear and beat:)
Didn't Saddam use the atomic bomb on 2 Japanese cities?
And Iraqi airplanes were bombing Nicaragua.

"Xenos the elder" <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:411A6E90.1080702@yahoo.com... Lik Mi Sak wrote: "Ignoramus5937" <ignoramus5937@NOSPAM.5937.invalid> wrote in message news:cfdjut$ug0$0@pita.alt.net...``... the United States has not in fact brought freedom to Iraq. It hasbrought instead death, destruction and now near-chaos. ... AWESOME, we kicked ***, this mofo's deserved it, after sponsoring
terrorism for the past 20 years. Ignorante you are just jealous that you ruskis got you rear and beat:) Didn't Saddam use the atomic bomb on 2 Japanese cities? And Iraqi airplanes were bombing Nicaragua.

oh I see you implying that we in the US are the terrorist, I wonder were
some of the european countries would be right now without uncle Sam.
I am not going to waste my time with you asswipe

Lik Mi Sak wrote: "Xenos the elder" <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:411A6E90.1080702@yahoo.com...Lik Mi Sak wrote:"Ignoramus5937" <ignoramus5937@NOSPAM.5937.invalid> wrote in messagenews:cfdjut$ug0$0@pita.alt.net...>``... the United States has not in fact brought freedom to Iraq. It has>brought instead death, destruction and now near-chaos. ...AWESOME, we kicked ***, this mofo's deserved it, after sponsoring terrorismfor the past 20 years.Ignorante you are just jealous that you ruskis got you rear and beat:)Didn't Saddam use the atomic bomb on 2 Japanese cities?And Iraqi airplanes were bombing Nicaragua. oh I see you implying that we in the US are the terrorist, I wonder were some of the european countries would be right now without uncle Sam.
Who is uncle Sam? Your uncle?
Is he something like Superman or more like Batman?
I am not going to waste my time with you asswipe
Please don't talk to your toilet paper while writing a message.
Constipation?

You got it completely wrong.
When " they " kill thousand of us then they are clearly terrorists.
When we kill a 1000.000 of them we are " freedom fighters ".
You see all the difference is who is doing the killing.
It's murder when you do it and self-defense when I do it.
Self-defence in your house, 5000 miles away from the US and I kill you
in your own best interest.
And your family too because I am in a good mood today.

"Lik Mi Sak" <blubbering123@juno.com> wrote in message
news:411a7134$0$2380$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com ... "Xenos the elder" <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:411A6E90.1080702@yahoo.com... Lik Mi Sak wrote: "Ignoramus5937" <ignoramus5937@NOSPAM.5937.invalid> wrote in message news:cfdjut$ug0$0@pita.alt.net...>``... the United States has not in fact brought freedom to Iraq. It
has>brought instead death, destruction and now near-chaos. ... AWESOME, we kicked ***, this mofo's deserved it, after sponsoring terrorism for the past 20 years. Ignorante you are just jealous that you ruskis got you rear and beat:) Didn't Saddam use the atomic bomb on 2 Japanese cities? And Iraqi airplanes were bombing Nicaragua. oh I see you implying that we in the US are the terrorist, I wonder were some of the european countries would be right now without uncle Sam. I am not going to waste my time with you asswipe

No need to imply anything, the politicians in the current U.S.
administration ARE terrorists.

"kato" <spamBotssuck@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:TJxSc.73774$f5.1372576@weber.videotron.net... "Lik Mi Sak" <blubbering123@juno.com> wrote in message news:411a7134$0$2380$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com ... "Xenos the elder" <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:411A6E90.1080702@yahoo.com... Lik Mi Sak wrote: > "Ignoramus5937" <ignoramus5937@NOSPAM.5937.invalid> wrote in message > news:cfdjut$ug0$0@pita.alt.net... > >>``... the United States has not in fact brought freedom to Iraq. It has >>brought instead death, destruction and now near-chaos. ... > > > AWESOME, we kicked ***, this mofo's deserved it, after sponsoring terrorism > for the past 20 years. > Ignorante you are just jealous that you ruskis got you rear and
beat:) > > Didn't Saddam use the atomic bomb on 2 Japanese cities? And Iraqi airplanes were bombing Nicaragua. oh I see you implying that we in the US are the terrorist, I wonder were some of the european countries would be right now without uncle Sam. I am not going to waste my time with you asswipe No need to imply anything, the politicians in the current U.S. administration ARE terrorists.

WTF man tell me is OJ really innocent:))

Xenos the elder <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:411A80B1.8070404@yahoo.com:


Self-defence in your house, 5000 miles away from the US and I kill you in your own best interest. And your family too because I am in a good mood today.



If you do, you should buy your ammo at Wal-Mart - it's on sale! I got a
case of 250 shells for my 12 gauge for $30.00! 100 rounds of 45 cal for
only $20!

Wow!

I thought there was an ammo shortage!


Best - Fido

Fido said... Xenos the elder <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote in news:411A80B1.8070404@yahoo.com: Self-defence in your house, 5000 miles away from the US and I kill you in your own best interest. And your family too because I am in a good mood today. If you do, you should buy your ammo at Wal-Mart - it's on sale! I got a case of 250 shells for my 12 gauge for $30.00! 100 rounds of 45 cal for only $20! Wow! I thought there was an ammo shortage!

That 100 round 'white box' 45 ammo is about the best deal around...
we've gone through a few boxes lately. 100 rounds of 9mm is only about
$11 at Wal-Mart if I remember correctly.




Casey

In article <HBBSc.12231$pT5.7917@lakeread05>, Casey wrote: Fido said... Xenos the elder <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote in news:411A80B1.8070404@yahoo.com: Self-defence in your house, 5000 miles away from the US and I kill you in your own best interest. And your family too because I am in a good mood today. If you do, you should buy your ammo at Wal-Mart - it's on sale! I got a case of 250 shells for my 12 gauge for $30.00! 100 rounds of 45 cal for only $20! Wow! I thought there was an ammo shortage! That 100 round 'white box' 45 ammo is about the best deal around... we've gone through a few boxes lately. 100 rounds of 9mm is only about $11 at Wal-Mart if I remember correctly.

that's pretty cheap, a few years ago their ammo prices sucked. I will
check them out again.

i

Ammo shortage? You obviously must be in Yankee territory. Ain't no ammo
shortage in my neck of the woods.


"Fido" <tomchandNS@gwi.net> wrote in message
news:2JmdnQAINvUDTYfcRVn-pQ@gwi.net... Xenos the elder <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote in news:411A80B1.8070404@yahoo.com: Self-defence in your house, 5000 miles away from the US and I kill you in your own best interest. And your family too because I am in a good mood today. If you do, you should buy your ammo at Wal-Mart - it's on sale! I got a case of 250 shells for my 12 gauge for $30.00! 100 rounds of 45 cal for only $20! Wow! I thought there was an ammo shortage! Best - Fido

Fido wrote: Xenos the elder <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote in news:411A80B1.8070404@yahoo.com:Self-defence in your house, 5000 miles away from the US and I kill youin your own best interest.And your family too because I am in a good mood today. If you do, you should buy your ammo at Wal-Mart - it's on sale! I got a case of 250 shells for my 12 gauge for $30.00! 100 rounds of 45 cal for only $20! Wow! I thought there was an ammo shortage! Best - Fido
After reading all those commends from Americans ( US only ) do you
expect any compassion
after the next attack in the USA?
If " you " don't care how many millions of people get murdered by your
government then why should anybody shed a tear for your murdered people?
Thank god there is a minority of Americans ( US ) who still knows the
difference between right and wrong ( Not the church going type ).

kato wrote: "Lik Mi Sak" <blubbering123@juno.com> wrote in message news:411a7134$0$2380$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com ..."Xenos the elder" <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote in messagenews:411A6E90.1080702@yahoo.com...Lik Mi Sak wrote:>"Ignoramus5937" <ignoramus5937@NOSPAM.5937.invalid> wrote in message>news:cfdjut$ug0$0@pita.alt.net...>>>>``... the United States has not in fact brought freedom to Iraq. It> has>>brought instead death, destruction and now near-chaos. ...>>>AWESOME, we kicked ***, this mofo's deserved it, after sponsoringterrorism>for the past 20 years.>Ignorante you are just jealous that you ruskis got you rear and beat:)>>Didn't Saddam use the atomic bomb on 2 Japanese cities?And Iraqi airplanes were bombing Nicaragua.oh I see you implying that we in the US are the terrorist, I wonder weresome of the european countries would be right now without uncle Sam.I am not going to waste my time with you asswipe No need to imply anything, the politicians in the current U.S. administration ARE terrorists.
Unfortunately democrats serve the same masters.
The differences between the 2 parties are very minimal.
If the occupation of Iraq was meant to make oil cheaper just the
opposite happen.
As with the " war on drugs " so with " the war on terrorism " there is
to much money to be made and to much power to gain that those " wars "
would ever be over.
During the Reagen years half the drugs sold in the USA were sold by FBI
and CIA agents.
I don't think the situation has changed because of the huge amount of
money involved.
Here is a comment of a " very bright and compassionate Amurikan "
:::::::::

Don't worry too much about the loss of 1/2 million children Xenos.
The Iraqis will just generate more to take their places.

Consider those years of Sanctions that murdered all those children
"Birth Control," and it becomes a lot easier to rationalize.

Lg
misc.survivalism
..........
As my friend was saying to me the other day:
" The life of ONE American is more worth then then the life of a million
non Americans.
Actually the life's of non Americans ( US only ) are worth nothing ".
This kind of thinking is fascism of the worst kind.
I called Nazism.
The Nazis are for the most part are dead in Germany but millions of them
are living in the USA.
Hey they have even their government.

Casey wrote: Fido said...Xenos the elder <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote innews:411A80B1.8070404@yahoo.com:Self-defence in your house, 5000 miles away from the US and I kill youin your own best interest.And your family too because I am in a good mood today.If you do, you should buy your ammo at Wal-Mart - it's on sale! I got acase of 250 shells for my 12 gauge for $30.00! 100 rounds of 45 cal foronly $20!Wow!I thought there was an ammo shortage! That 100 round 'white box' 45 ammo is about the best deal around... we've gone through a few boxes lately. 100 rounds of 9mm is only about $11 at Wal-Mart if I remember correctly. Casey
So the criminals and schizophrenic paranoid will buy them too.
And everybody can shoot at everybody.
In an atmosphere of fear and violence we need more fear and more violence.
Your society will become a police state.
It is more then half way there.
I can recall the time when I was sleeping in the park of Piraeus ( near
the port ) for about one week. Nothing was stolen. No threats no
violence. No guns.
I like to imagine the people in this group here being in the same room
and all of them having a gun ( for selfdefence only ), being drunk and
having " lively " discussions.

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:41:38 +0300, Xenos the elder
<dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:
Here is a comment of a " very bright and compassionate Amurikan ":::::::::Don't worry too much about the loss of 1/2 million children Xenos.The Iraqis will just generate more to take their places.Consider those years of Sanctions that murdered all those children"Birth Control," and it becomes a lot easier to rationalize.Lgmisc.survivalism

War is a fact of life, you nitwit. Get _used_ to it. Get used to it.
Take 1/2 million fish from the Sea, leave enough so they can breed and
you will have another *harvest* next year.

This has been going on since the beginning of recorded time, and you
don't like it.

Xenos, nobody cares if you don't like it. Grow up.

Lg
misc.survivalism

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:51:28 +0300, Xenos the elder
<dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:
Casey wrote: Fido said...Xenos the elder <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote innews:411A80B1.8070404@yahoo.com:>Self-defence in your house, 5000 miles away from the US and I kill you>in your own best interest.>And your family too because I am in a good mood today.If you do, you should buy your ammo at Wal-Mart - it's on sale! I got acase of 250 shells for my 12 gauge for $30.00! 100 rounds of 45 cal foronly $20!Wow!I thought there was an ammo shortage! That 100 round 'white box' 45 ammo is about the best deal around... we've gone through a few boxes lately. 100 rounds of 9mm is only about $11 at Wal-Mart if I remember correctly. CaseySo the criminals and schizophrenic paranoid will buy them too.And everybody can shoot at everybody.

You have citations for this or is it just your delusional opinion?In an atmosphere of fear and violence we need more fear and more violence.

Actually, when I go about armed, I fear no one. This means guns
diminish fear.
Your society will become a police state.It is more then half way there.

A hint for you Odepus...the US has AlWAYS been a heavily armed
country. In fact, at this point in time, there are more firearms in
private hands than ever before...and our crime rate has been falling
steadily for a number of years. More guns=less crime.
I can recall the time when I was sleeping in the park of Piraeus ( nearthe port ) for about one week. Nothing was stolen. No threats noviolence. No guns.+

Most folks dont pick on winos sleeping in the park, as they tend to be
loonytoons and have little of value.

I should mention though I did have some little dirt bag ask nastily
for my wallet, while waving a stilleto, on Corsica. I dont know if he
lived or not, but he was really attached to that blade when I left.
I like to imagine the people in this group here being in the same roomand all of them having a gun ( for selfdefence only ), being drunk andhaving " lively " discussions.

Im sure you can imagine all sorts of stupid things. However neither
history nor the current culture bear out your delusions.

Gunner

"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:19:56 +0300, Xenos the elder
<dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:
Fido wrote: Xenos the elder <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote in news:411A80B1.8070404@yahoo.com:Self-defence in your house, 5000 miles away from the US and I kill youin your own best interest.And your family too because I am in a good mood today. If you do, you should buy your ammo at Wal-Mart - it's on sale! I got a case of 250 shells for my 12 gauge for $30.00! 100 rounds of 45 cal for only $20! Wow! I thought there was an ammo shortage! Best - FidoAfter reading all those commends from Americans ( US only ) do youexpect any compassionafter the next attack in the USA?If " you " don't care how many millions of people get murdered by yourgovernment

Governments tend to murder people by the millions. Fortunately unlike
virtually all other goverments, that of the US doesnt murder its own
citizens.

then why should anybody shed a tear for your murdered people?Thank god there is a minority of Americans ( US ) who still knows thedifference between right and wrong ( Not the church going type ).

Depends on what they consider right and wrong. Its often at odds with
the rest of us.

Gunner

"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:41:38 +0300, Xenos the elder
<dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:
kato wrote: "Lik Mi Sak" <blubbering123@juno.com> wrote in message news:411a7134$0$2380$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com ..."Xenos the elder" <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote in messagenews:411A6E90.1080702@yahoo.com...>>Lik Mi Sak wrote:>>>"Ignoramus5937" <ignoramus5937@NOSPAM.5937.invalid> wrote in message>>news:cfdjut$ug0$0@pita.alt.net...>>>>>>>``... the United States has not in fact brought freedom to Iraq. It>> has>>>brought instead death, destruction and now near-chaos. ...>>>>>>AWESOME, we kicked ***, this mofo's deserved it, after sponsoring>terrorism>>for the past 20 years.>>Ignorante you are just jealous that you ruskis got you rear and beat:)>>>>>>Didn't Saddam use the atomic bomb on 2 Japanese cities?>And Iraqi airplanes were bombing Nicaragua.oh I see you implying that we in the US are the terrorist, I wonder weresome of the european countries would be right now without uncle Sam.I am not going to waste my time with you asswipe No need to imply anything, the politicians in the current U.S. administration ARE terrorists.Unfortunately democrats serve the same masters.The differences between the 2 parties are very minimal.If the occupation of Iraq was meant to make oil cheaper just theopposite happen.As with the " war on drugs " so with " the war on terrorism " there isto much money to be made and to much power to gain that those " wars "would ever be over.During the Reagen years half the drugs sold in the USA were sold by FBIand CIA agents.I don't think the situation has changed because of the huge amount ofmoney involved.Here is a comment of a " very bright and compassionate Amurikan ":::::::::Don't worry too much about the loss of 1/2 million children Xenos.The Iraqis will just generate more to take their places.Consider those years of Sanctions that murdered all those children"Birth Control," and it becomes a lot easier to rationalize.Lgmisc.survivalism.........As my friend was saying to me the other day:" The life of ONE American is more worth then then the life of a millionnon Americans.Actually the life's of non Americans ( US only ) are worth nothing ".This kind of thinking is fascism of the worst kind.I called Nazism.The Nazis are for the most part are dead in Germany but millions of themare living in the USA.Hey they have even their government.

Godwins Law.

You lose. Please pick up your consolation prize, a nice new sheep
collar for you and the rest of your family, at the door on the left,
and please exit via door marked Killing Floor.

Baaaaaaye.

Gunner

"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 03:14:07 -0500, Lawrence Glickman
<lglickman@ameritech.net> wrote:
Lgmisc.survivalismWar is a fact of life, you nitwit. Get _used_ to it. Get used to it.Take 1/2 million fish from the Sea, leave enough so they can breed andyou will have another *harvest* next year.This has been going on since the beginning of recorded time, and youdon't like it.Xenos, nobody cares if you don't like it. Grow up.

If he is indeed Greek, he comes from a long line of human butchers and
murderers. Thousands of years of them.

Shrug. They murdered their own citizens by the long ton.

Gunner

"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:08:12 GMT, Gunner <gunnerNOSPAM@lightspeed.net>
wrote:
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 03:14:07 -0500, Lawrence Glickman<lglickman@ameritech.net> wrote:Lgmisc.survivalismWar is a fact of life, you nitwit. Get _used_ to it. Get used to it.Take 1/2 million fish from the Sea, leave enough so they can breed andyou will have another *harvest* next year.This has been going on since the beginning of recorded time, and youdon't like it.Xenos, nobody cares if you don't like it. Grow up.If he is indeed Greek, he comes from a long line of human butchers andmurderers. Thousands of years of them.Shrug. They murdered their own citizens by the long ton.Gunner

Can you find any Greek *Art* that doesn't show a Greek Warrior with a
spear in one hand and a shield in the other?

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 04:24:06 -0500, Lawrence Glickman
<lglickman@ameritech.net> wrote:
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:08:12 GMT, Gunner <gunnerNOSPAM@lightspeed.net>wrote:On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 03:14:07 -0500, Lawrence Glickman<lglickman@ameritech.net> wrote:>>Lg>misc.survivalismWar is a fact of life, you nitwit. Get _used_ to it. Get used to it.Take 1/2 million fish from the Sea, leave enough so they can breed andyou will have another *harvest* next year.This has been going on since the beginning of recorded time, and youdon't like it.Xenos, nobody cares if you don't like it. Grow up.If he is indeed Greek, he comes from a long line of human butchers andmurderers. Thousands of years of them.Shrug. They murdered their own citizens by the long ton.GunnerCan you find any Greek *Art* that doesn't show a Greek Warrior with aspear in one hand and a shield in the other?

I'll go one better than that.
Look at the Statue of Athena at the Acropolis. Even a snake is behind
the shield, hiding the hideous Gorgon, the other hand holds the
Falcon. She was in fact, the goddess of War.
================================================== ==============
Athena was primarily the goddess of the Greek cities, of industry and
the arts, and, in later mythology, of wisdom; she was also goddess of
war.
================================================== ==============

It seems that KILLING was an integral part of the Greek Culture. Go
figure. Along comes Xenos the Elder who wishes to revise history.
Might work on the younger kids, but we older folks ( elders ) know the
real story.

Lg

"Gunner" <gunnerNOSPAM@lightspeed.net> wrote in message
news:5hcmh0hgnujit3sailt1fgqn36hutv5cm1@4ax.com... On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:19:56 +0300, Xenos the elder
If " you " don't care how many millions of people get murdered by yourgovernment Governments tend to murder people by the millions. Fortunately unlike virtually all other goverments, that of the US doesnt murder its own citizens.

Actually, the international human rights organizations would disagree. They
would point to the use of capital punishment in the US as murder of its own
citizens.

Rambler

If he is indeed Greek, he comes from a long line of human butchers and murderers. Thousands of years of them.
that explains it, you do know how they divide the man and boys...... with a
crowbar

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 07:20:48 -0400, "Lik Mi Sak"
<blubbering123@juno.com> wrote:
If he is indeed Greek, he comes from a long line of human butchers and murderers. Thousands of years of them.that explains it, you do know how they divide the man and boys...... with acrowbar

The Acropolis at Athens dates back to circa 400 B.C. That's about 2
1/2 thousand years ago. I'm sure if you total the killings the Greeks
have done against the killings the USA has done, you will find the
Greeks out in front.

Lg

Casey <cclremovethispart@cox.net> wrote in
news:HBBSc.12231$pT5.7917@lakeread05:
Fido said... buy your ammo at Wal-Mart - it's on sale! I got a case of 250 shells for my 12 gauge for $30.00! 100 rounds of 45 cal for only $20! That 100 round 'white box' 45 ammo is about the best deal around... we've gone through a few boxes lately. 100 rounds of 9mm is only about $11 at Wal-Mart if I remember correctly.

Cool!

I just started shooting very recently - buddy of mine who's an expert shot
in the Guard took me and the boys out. As "Range Safety Instructor" he
made sure everyone was safe and had a good time. And I did, that's for
sure.

I like the .45 because it makes a big noise, but I think the thing is
really too much gun for anything practical. I'd like to have a second
smaller and inexpensive pistol, maybe a 9mm is the way to go if the ammo
is that cheap. A fellow in town has a nice new 40cal auto for about $180
and a new 38 auto for about $135 - some of the off-brand stuff is pretty
cheap right now. Since I already have an automatic, though, maybe I'd like
a nice clean double-action stainless gun, like my buddy's cop gun, just a
reliable low maintenace pistol.

Best - Fido





Casey

In article <S4Sdnd6kJYAYHIbcRVn-tQ@gwi.net>, Fido wrote: I just started shooting very recently - buddy of mine who's an expert shot in the Guard took me and the boys out. As "Range Safety Instructor" he made sure everyone was safe and had a good time. And I did, that's for sure. I like the .45 because it makes a big noise, but I think the thing is really too much gun for anything practical. I'd like to have a second smaller and inexpensive pistol, maybe a 9mm is the way to go if the ammo is that cheap. A fellow in town has a nice new 40cal auto for about $180 and a new 38 auto for about $135 - some of the off-brand stuff is pretty cheap right now. Since I already have an automatic, though, maybe I'd like a nice clean double-action stainless gun, like my buddy's cop gun, just a reliable low maintenace pistol.

Fido, if you permit me to say so, think about buying a cheap rifle
that shoots cheap ammo. Like an SKS or some other choices. It is a lot
more fun for me to shoot rifles. Plus, a rifle is a more practical
thing than a handgun.

i

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:04:15 GMT, Gunner <gunnerNOSPAM@lightspeed.net>
wrote:
If " you " don't care how many millions of people get murdered by yourgovernmentGovernments tend to murder people by the millions. Fortunately unlikevirtually all other goverments, that of the US doesnt murder its owncitizens.

Hummm at least not by the millions.
(a correction)
Gunner

"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:48:07 +0800, "Rambler" <iamrambler at yahoo dot
com> wrote:
"Gunner" <gunnerNOSPAM@lightspeed.net> wrote in messagenews:5hcmh0hgnujit3sailt1fgqn36hutv5cm1@4ax .com... On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:19:56 +0300, Xenos the elderIf " you " don't care how many millions of people get murdered by yourgovernment Governments tend to murder people by the millions. Fortunately unlike virtually all other goverments, that of the US doesnt murder its own citizens.Actually, the international human rights organizations would disagree. Theywould point to the use of capital punishment in the US as murder of its owncitizens.Rambler
Murder is defined as the unlawful taking of human life. If executions
are provided for by law then its not murder.

Gunner

"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:41:09 -0500, Fido <tomchandNS@gwi.net> wrote:
Casey <cclremovethispart@cox.net> wrote innews:HBBSc.12231$pT5.7917@lakeread05: Fido said... buy your ammo at Wal-Mart - it's on sale! I got a case of 250 shells for my 12 gauge for $30.00! 100 rounds of 45 cal for only $20! That 100 round 'white box' 45 ammo is about the best deal around... we've gone through a few boxes lately. 100 rounds of 9mm is only about $11 at Wal-Mart if I remember correctly.Cool!I just started shooting very recently - buddy of mine who's an expert shotin the Guard took me and the boys out. As "Range Safety Instructor" hemade sure everyone was safe and had a good time. And I did, that's forsure.I like the .45 because it makes a big noise, but I think the thing isreally too much gun for anything practical. I'd like to have a secondsmaller and inexpensive pistol, maybe a 9mm is the way to go if the ammois that cheap. A fellow in town has a nice new 40cal auto for about $180and a new 38 auto for about $135 - some of the off-brand stuff is prettycheap right now. Since I already have an automatic, though, maybe I'd likea nice clean double-action stainless gun, like my buddy's cop gun, just areliable low maintenace pistol.Best - Fido
Ah...I should mention, as it appears you are new to the world of
firearms....that the .45 ACP is just about the right amount of gun for
self defense. Its carried daily by many thousands of people
(including myself)

Just a heads up. Shrug

Gunner

"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

Fido said... Casey <cclremovethispart@cox.net> wrote in news:HBBSc.12231$pT5.7917@lakeread05: Fido said... buy your ammo at Wal-Mart - it's on sale! I got a case of 250 shells for my 12 gauge for $30.00! 100 rounds of 45 cal for only $20! That 100 round 'white box' 45 ammo is about the best deal around... we've gone through a few boxes lately. 100 rounds of 9mm is only about $11 at Wal-Mart if I remember correctly. Cool! I just started shooting very recently - buddy of mine who's an expert shot in the Guard took me and the boys out. As "Range Safety Instructor" he made sure everyone was safe and had a good time. And I did, that's for sure.

Target shooting is a lot of fun - it's something my son and I do
together as a "guy thing". He's really good.
I like the .45 because it makes a big noise, but I think the thing is really too much gun for anything practical. I'd like to have a second smaller and inexpensive pistol, maybe a 9mm is the way to go if the ammo is that cheap. A fellow in town has a nice new 40cal auto for about $180 and a new 38 auto for about $135 - some of the off-brand stuff is pretty cheap right now. Since I already have an automatic, though, maybe I'd like a nice clean double-action stainless gun, like my buddy's cop gun, just a reliable low maintenace pistol.

I have a 9mm Sig and 45 Glock. I like them both, but I shoot a lot
more accurately with the 9mm. The 9 vs 45 debate is a never-ending
one. They both have advantages.

The 40 cal is too much like the 45... and I'd much rather have a 9mm
than a 38 (I have an old 38 S/W revolver).

For being fun and dirt cheap to shoot, nothing beats a 22 auto target
pistol. Ruger makes some good stainless ones that are pretty
inexpensive.


Casey

Ignoramus14701 <ignoramus14701@NOSPAM.14701.invalid> wrote in
news:cfg1lj$k9s$1@pita.alt.net:
In article <S4Sdnd6kJYAYHIbcRVn-tQ@gwi.net>, Fido wrote: I just started shooting very recently - buddy of mine who's an expert shot in the Guard took me and the boys out. As "Range Safety Instructor" he made sure everyone was safe and had a good time. And I did, that's for sure. I like the .45 because it makes a big noise, but I think the thing is really too much gun for anything practical. I'd like to have a second smaller and inexpensive pistol, maybe a 9mm is the way to go if the ammo is that cheap. A fellow in town has a nice new 40cal auto for about $180 and a new 38 auto for about $135 - some of the off-brand stuff is pretty cheap right now. Since I already have an automatic, though, maybe I'd like a nice clean double-action stainless gun, like my buddy's cop gun, just a reliable low maintenace pistol. Fido, if you permit me to say so, think about buying a cheap rifle that shoots cheap ammo. Like an SKS or some other choices. It is a lot more fun for me to shoot rifles. Plus, a rifle is a more practical thing than a handgun.


Thanks, Igor, I am new at this, and appreciate any advice. Last couple of
guns I bought I paid a few extra dollars for at local dealers so I could
get some personal instruction and advice.

For a rifle I've got the Mossberg 702 "Plinkster", which you can get at
Wal-Mart for about $89, it's a 10/22 semi short rifle. It's really a kids'
gun, but I went out with my buddy one afternoon shot off one or two
hundred rounds and he liked it so much that he wants one too. The thing
about the 10 round magazine is the tempation to go bang-bang-bang all day
long. I went out with my youngest and the next thing we knew we had shot
off the rest of the box of .22's (550 rounds for $8.95 at Wal-Mart, if you
like a bargain)

I was looking at the SKS, but my buddy would like a gun closer to the M-16
so he can practice for competition (or deployment). Peep sites or .223
NATO ammo would be a plus. I'm not sure what the SKS set up is. Around
here in the Maine woods the standard rifle is the 30-30, but that's a lot
of gun, too.

For just blowing stuff up, though, I like the shotgun. Pump-action, fired
fast from the hip, you can blow off a lot of aggression. Of course I find
that the targets are good for **** after letting go a couple of times, so
I got a trap thrower ($29.99 at Wal-Mart) which I have yet to take out. I
tried shooting some skeet, I didn't hit a damn thing, but trap might be
easier. Not as much fun as just letting loose, but with a good load
definately noisey enough.

Best - Fido


i

Casey <cclremovethispart@cox.net> wrote in
news:tKMSc.12257$pT5.2070@lakeread05:
Fido said...
I just started shooting very recently - buddy of mine who's an expert shot in the Guard took me and the boys out. As "Range Safety Instructor" he made sure everyone was safe and had a good time. And I did, that's for sure. Target shooting is a lot of fun - it's something my son and I do together as a "guy thing". He's really good.


My 16 (...oops - just turned 17!) is pretty good, he was plinking with a
bolt action 22 and just couldn't seem to miss. He's not that big on
shooting, though, but my youngest likes it.

My daughter wants to go out, but has been so busy at work. I guess that
lots of girls like to go shooting, too. A friend of mine's girlfriend is
with the Feds and he went with her during one of her regular qualifying
requirements. Watching her stitch up the front of the silhouette at 50
years with the M-16 on a fast-reaction burst reminded him how important it
is not to fool around on her.

Best - Fido

In article <PrednU-0FZt2JobcRVn-tw@gwi.net>, Fido wrote: Ignoramus14701 <ignoramus14701@NOSPAM.14701.invalid> wrote in news:cfg1lj$k9s$1@pita.alt.net: In article <S4Sdnd6kJYAYHIbcRVn-tQ@gwi.net>, Fido wrote: I just started shooting very recently - buddy of mine who's an expert shot in the Guard took me and the boys out. As "Range Safety Instructor" he made sure everyone was safe and had a good time. And I did, that's for sure. I like the .45 because it makes a big noise, but I think the thing is really too much gun for anything practical. I'd like to have a second smaller and inexpensive pistol, maybe a 9mm is the way to go if the ammo is that cheap. A fellow in town has a nice new 40cal auto for about $180 and a new 38 auto for about $135 - some of the off-brand stuff is pretty cheap right now. Since I already have an automatic, though, maybe I'd like a nice clean double-action stainless gun, like my buddy's cop gun, just a reliable low maintenace pistol. Fido, if you permit me to say so, think about buying a cheap rifle that shoots cheap ammo. Like an SKS or some other choices. It is a lot more fun for me to shoot rifles. Plus, a rifle is a more practical thing than a handgun. Thanks, Igor, I am new at this, and appreciate any advice. Last couple of guns I bought I paid a few extra dollars for at local dealers so I could get some personal instruction and advice. For a rifle I've got the Mossberg 702 "Plinkster", which you can get at Wal-Mart for about $89, it's a 10/22 semi short rifle. It's really a kids' gun, but I went out with my buddy one afternoon shot off one or two hundred rounds and he liked it so much that he wants one too. The thing about the 10 round magazine is the tempation to go bang-bang-bang all day long. I went out with my youngest and the next thing we knew we had shot off the rest of the box of .22's (550 rounds for $8.95 at Wal-Mart, if you like a bargain)

Soundslike great fun. I do not own a .22 yet, I am holding out for
some reason. What I do have though, is a scoped decent air rifle, that
I actually shoot in my basement.
I was looking at the SKS, but my buddy would like a gun closer to the M-16 so he can practice for competition (or deployment). Peep sites or .223 NATO ammo would be a plus. I'm not sure what the SKS set up is. Around here in the Maine woods the standard rifle is the 30-30, but that's a lot of gun, too.

Maybe he can actually afford an AR-15 of some sort? I know that if I
was heading for deployment, I would not want to practice with
anything other than a rifle similar to what I would be issued. I would
also practice a lot!
For just blowing stuff up, though, I like the shotgun. Pump-action, fired fast from the hip, you can blow off a lot of aggression.

I do not do this sort of thing, based on the theory that going
shooting to "blow off the built up steam" makes one inattentive and
prone to accidents.

i

Lawrence Glickman wrote: On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:41:38 +0300, Xenos the elder <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:Here is a comment of a " very bright and compassionate Amurikan ":::::::::Don't worry too much about the loss of 1/2 million children Xenos.The Iraqis will just generate more to take their places.Consider those years of Sanctions that murdered all those children"Birth Control," and it becomes a lot easier to rationalize.Lgmisc.survivalism War is a fact of life, you nitwit. Get _used_ to it. Get used to it. Take 1/2 million fish from the Sea, leave enough so they can breed and you will have another *harvest* next year. This has been going on since the beginning of recorded time, and you don't like it. Xenos, nobody cares if you don't like it. Grow up.
Don't wine then when the first atomic bomb goes up in the USA.
Lg misc.survivalism

Gunner wrote: On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 03:14:07 -0500, Lawrence Glickman <lglickman@ameritech.net> wrote:Lgmisc.survivalismWar is a fact of life, you nitwit. Get _used_ to it. Get used to it.Take 1/2 million fish from the Sea, leave enough so they can breed andyou will have another *harvest* next year.This has been going on since the beginning of recorded time, and youdon't like it.Xenos, nobody cares if you don't like it. Grow up. If he is indeed Greek, he comes from a long line of human butchers and murderers. Thousands of years of them.
We had an empire under Alexander and after him but we did not butcher
people by the millions.
Anyway it was then.
Today we have international laws but the USA is braking them all the time.
If the current legislation under Bush should be judged under the same
criteria like the Nuremberg trials, they would all land on the electric
chair.

Shrug. They murdered their own citizens by the long ton. Gunner "In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman Liebmann

Lawrence Glickman wrote: On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 04:24:06 -0500, Lawrence Glickman <lglickman@ameritech.net> wrote:On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:08:12 GMT, Gunner <gunnerNOSPAM@lightspeed.net>wrote:On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 03:14:07 -0500, Lawrence Glickman<lglickman@ameritech.net> wrote:>>Lg>>misc.survivalism>>War is a fact of life, you nitwit. Get _used_ to it. Get used to it.>Take 1/2 million fish from the Sea, leave enough so they can breed and>you will have another *harvest* next year.>>This has been going on since the beginning of recorded time, and you>don't like it.>>Xenos, nobody cares if you don't like it. Grow up.If he is indeed Greek, he comes from a long line of human butchers andmurderers. Thousands of years of them.Shrug. They murdered their own citizens by the long ton.GunnerCan you find any Greek *Art* that doesn't show a Greek Warrior with aspear in one hand and a shield in the other? I'll go one better than that. Look at the Statue of Athena at the Acropolis. Even a snake is behind the shield, hiding the hideous Gorgon, the other hand holds the Falcon. She was in fact, the goddess of War. ================================================== ============== Athena was primarily the goddess of the Greek cities, of industry and the arts, and, in later mythology, of wisdom; she was also goddess of war. ================================================== ============== It seems that KILLING was an integral part of the Greek Culture. Go figure. Along comes Xenos the Elder who wishes to revise history. Might work on the younger kids, but we older folks ( elders ) know the real story. Lg
What do you personal get out of the killing of Iraqis?
Do you get cheaper oil?
Do you own parts of the weapon producing industry?
Or simply you get every time your " kicks " when Americans kill yellow
or brown people?
It is only but a minority who is profiting from the war in Iraq for the
majority of Americans the war in Iraq is negative news.
Europe and Japan is refusing this time to carry the expenses.
In the last gulf war Europe and Japan paid to the USA more then 90% of
the wars expenses.
From this point of view it makes economic sense to bomb Iraq with
expensive bombs because the Europeans and Japanese will pay them soon.
Sorry not this time.

Lawrence Glickman wrote: On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 07:20:48 -0400, "Lik Mi Sak" <blubbering123@juno.com> wrote:If he is indeed Greek, he comes from a long line of human butchers andmurderers. Thousands of years of them.that explains it, you do know how they divide the man and boys...... with acrowbar The Acropolis at Athens dates back to circa 400 B.C. That's about 2 1/2 thousand years ago. I'm sure if you total the killings the Greeks have done against the killings the USA has done, you will find the Greeks out in front. Lg
" It is a shame to fall under an enemies hand but a honor to die under a
friends hand ".
This is an old Greek saying.
Greeks killing each other was a part of the friendship.
Real murder was when barbarians were killing Greeks.
I know only that oil was cheaper before the occupation of Iraq.
Personally I get no satisfaction from meaningless killings.

Gunner wrote: On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:48:07 +0800, "Rambler" <iamrambler at yahoo dot com> wrote:"Gunner" <gunnerNOSPAM@lightspeed.net> wrote in messagenews:5hcmh0hgnujit3sailt1fgqn36hutv5cm1@4ax .com...On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:19:56 +0300, Xenos the elder>If " you " don't care how many millions of people get murdered by your>governmentGovernments tend to murder people by the millions. Fortunately unlikevirtually all other goverments, that of the US doesnt murder its owncitizens.Actually, the international human rights organizations would disagree. Theywould point to the use of capital punishment in the US as murder of its owncitizens.Rambler Murder is defined as the unlawful taking of human life. If executions are provided for by law then its not murder.
So if there is a law for genocide then it is OK.
Gunner "In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman Liebmann

Gunner wrote: On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:41:38 +0300, Xenos the elder <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:kato wrote:"Lik Mi Sak" <blubbering123@juno.com> wrote in messagenews:411a7134$0$2380$9a6e19ea@news.newshost ing.com...>"Xenos the elder" <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote in message>news:411A6E90.1080702@yahoo.com...>>>>Lik Mi Sak wrote:>>>>>>>"Ignoramus5937" <ignoramus5937@NOSPAM.5937.invalid> wrote in message>>>news:cfdjut$ug0$0@pita.alt.net...>>>>>>>>>>>>>``... the United States has not in fact brought freedom to Iraq. It>>>has>>>>brought instead death, destruction and now near-chaos. ...>>>>>>>>>AWESOME, we kicked ***, this mofo's deserved it, after sponsoring>>>terrorism>>>>>for the past 20 years.>>>Ignorante you are just jealous that you ruskis got you rear and beat:)>>>>>>>>>>Didn't Saddam use the atomic bomb on 2 Japanese cities?>>And Iraqi airplanes were bombing Nicaragua.>>oh I see you implying that we in the US are the terrorist, I wonder were>some of the european countries would be right now without uncle Sam.>I am not going to waste my time with you asswipe>No need to imply anything, the politicians in the current U.S.administration ARE terrorists.Unfortunately democrats serve the same masters.The differences between the 2 parties are very minimal.If the occupation of Iraq was meant to make oil cheaper just theopposite happen.As with the " war on drugs " so with " the war on terrorism " there isto much money to be made and to much power to gain that those " wars "would ever be over.During the Reagen years half the drugs sold in the USA were sold by FBIand CIA agents.I don't think the situation has changed because of the huge amount ofmoney involved.Here is a comment of a " very bright and compassionate Amurikan ":::::::::Don't worry too much about the loss of 1/2 million children Xenos.The Iraqis will just generate more to take their places.Consider those years of Sanctions that murdered all those children"Birth Control," and it becomes a lot easier to rationalize.Lgmisc.survivalism.........As my friend was saying to me the other day:" The life of ONE American is more worth then then the life of a millionnon Americans.Actually the life's of non Americans ( US only ) are worth nothing ".This kind of thinking is fascism of the worst kind.I called Nazism.The Nazis are for the most part are dead in Germany but millions of themare living in the USA.Hey they have even their government. Godwins Law.
I am permitted to brake the law like any other good American.
Especially if it is an international law.
You loose.
You lose. Please pick up your consolation prize, a nice new sheep collar for you and the rest of your family, at the door on the left, and please exit via door marked Killing Floor. Baaaaaaye. Gunner "In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman Liebmann

Fido said... Casey <cclremovethispart@cox.net> wrote in news:tKMSc.12257$pT5.2070@lakeread05: Fido said... I just started shooting very recently - buddy of mine who's an expert shot in the Guard took me and the boys out. As "Range Safety Instructor" he made sure everyone was safe and had a good time. And I did, that's for sure. Target shooting is a lot of fun - it's something my son and I do together as a "guy thing". He's really good. My 16 (...oops - just turned 17!) is pretty good, he was plinking with a bolt action 22 and just couldn't seem to miss. He's not that big on shooting, though, but my youngest likes it.

My 15 (...oops - just turned 16) son has improved to the point where
he's better than I am. That's a bit hard to take, but I like seeing
him having fun being good at something.

Now he's suddenly driving himself around... and it's driving me nuts
from worrying.

My daughter wants to go out, but has been so busy at work. I guess that lots of girls like to go shooting, too. A friend of mine's girlfriend is with the Feds and he went with her during one of her regular qualifying requirements. Watching her stitch up the front of the silhouette at 50 years with the M-16 on a fast-reaction burst reminded him how important it is not to fool around on her.

Ouch. I think she's found the key to keeping a spouse faithful.



Casey

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:29:26 +0300, Xenos the elder
<dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:
What do you personal get out of the killing of Iraqis?

Nothing. I've never held any animosity toward those people. Even
today. If it was up to me, today US troops would be headed home to
the US. But, it is not up to me.

I can/will Vote in November, but even then, it isn't up to me.
Do you get cheaper oil?

I can afford all the gasoline I want. Lucky me.
Do you own parts of the weapon producing industry?

No
Or simply you get every time your " kicks " when Americans kill yellowor brown people?

Only Evil yellow or brown people. Then I am very very happy.
I might add, I also *get off* when Evil white people are killed, or
Evil anybody.
It is only but a minority who is profiting from the war in Iraq for themajority of Americans the war in Iraq is negative news.

Yes, I think the war in Iraq is a mistake. But my *opinion* doesn't
count for anything.

The perpetrators of 9/11/01 should be our only legitimate targets.
Europe and Japan is refusing this time to carry the expenses.

I would also refuse if I could.
The perpetrators of 9/11/01 should be our only legitimate targets.
In the last gulf war Europe and Japan paid to the USA more then 90% ofthe wars expenses.

The last gulf war was a battle for Kuwait. Considering Japan is
entirely dependent on foreign oil, this comes as no surprise. Same
for Europe.
From this point of view it makes economic sense to bomb Iraq withexpensive bombs because the Europeans and Japanese will pay them soon.Sorry not this time.

Well it is too late now, Xenos. The horses are already out of the
barn.

Lg

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:36:51 +0300, Xenos the elder
<dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:
Lawrence Glickman wrote: On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 07:20:48 -0400, "Lik Mi Sak" <blubbering123@juno.com> wrote:>If he is indeed Greek, he comes from a long line of human butchers and>murderers. Thousands of years of them.>that explains it, you do know how they divide the man and boys...... with acrowbar The Acropolis at Athens dates back to circa 400 B.C. That's about 2 1/2 thousand years ago. I'm sure if you total the killings the Greeks have done against the killings the USA has done, you will find the Greeks out in front. Lg" It is a shame to fall under an enemies hand but a honor to die under afriends hand ".This is an old Greek saying.Greeks killing each other was a part of the friendship.Real murder was when barbarians were killing Greeks.I know only that oil was cheaper before the occupation of Iraq.Personally I get no satisfaction from meaningless killings.

You have to talk to Bush about this. His rationalization is that
terrorists must be fought wherever they are found. Do you disagree
with that? And that presently Iraq has become a focus for terrorist
aggression.

Talk to Bush about this.
You already know my *opinion.* Bring the troops home.

Lg

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:44:15 +0300, Xenos the elder
<dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:
Murder is defined as the unlawful taking of human life. If executions are provided for by law then its not murder.So if there is a law for genocide then it is OK.

Genocide by definition is murder. QED there cannot be a law "for"
genocide.

But nice try. Come back when you have something better.

Gunner

"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:47:17 +0300, Xenos the elder
<dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:
Godwins Law.I am permitted to brake the law like any other good American.Especially if it is an international law.You loose.

Ah..no. No international laws were broken. Stretched a bit
tightly..but not broken.

Hence..you loose twice.

Gunner

"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:36:51 +0300, Xenos the elder
<dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:
" It is a shame to fall under an enemies hand but a honor to die under afriends hand ".This is an old Greek saying.Greeks killing each other was a part of the friendship.Real murder was when barbarians were killing Greeks.I know only that oil was cheaper before the occupation of Iraq.Personally I get no satisfaction from meaningless killings.

Can I safely assume you were a supporter of Ethnikos Laikos
Apeleftherotikos Stratos?


"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

Ignoramus14701 <ignoramus14701@NOSPAM.14701.invalid> wrote in
news:cfgf3g$eln$1@pita.alt.net:


Soundslike great fun. I do not own a .22 yet, I am holding out for some reason. What I do have though, is a scoped decent air rifle, that I actually shoot in my basement.


I have one of those, and I like the thing. I don't like the scope, though,
I like the rifle sites. I shoot the little bb targets in my basement at 25
feet. That gun is good outside, too, I try to shoot the heads off
dandelions at 50 feet. I also like to switch between that gun and the .22
when we plink at cans. The thing is wicked accurate, and on a bright day
you can see the trajectory of the pellet, which is neat. Both the BB and
the .22 will go cleanly through a metal can at 50 feet.

It occurred to me that my air gun shoots at about 650 fps, and the .45 is
about 850 fps (the .22 is close to 1200 fps). I wonder if I could see the
bullet from the .45 if I shot a steel bullet on a sunny day? The impact of
the .45, though is very impressive - when I tried the gun out I made the
target can dance in the dirt, and when I looked at the can only one bullet
creased it - the rest was from the impact of the bullets hitting close to
the thing. That's a decent amount of firepower.

One of the dealers around here has a beautiful new .44 magnum revolver - a
cop gun, stainless and no safety. Talk about your firepower, but it's out
of my price range. To get an idea of the .44, a .22 out of a rifle is
about 80 foot-pounds at the muzzle, the .45 is about 356 fp and the .44
magnum is 741 foot- pounds. That's a lot of energy packed into a projectile
less than half an inch in diameter. Fine if you need to stop a car or a
small truck, but too big for practical use, I think.


Best - Fido

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:20:27 +0300, Xenos the elder
<dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:
Gunner wrote: On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 03:14:07 -0500, Lawrence Glickman <lglickman@ameritech.net> wrote:>Lg>misc.survivalismWar is a fact of life, you nitwit. Get _used_ to it. Get used to it.Take 1/2 million fish from the Sea, leave enough so they can breed andyou will have another *harvest* next year.This has been going on since the beginning of recorded time, and youdon't like it.Xenos, nobody cares if you don't like it. Grow up. If he is indeed Greek, he comes from a long line of human butchers and murderers. Thousands of years of them.We had an empire under Alexander and after him but we did not butcherpeople by the millions.

Ok..how about Hundreds of Thousands? And then there were the
slaves...
Anyway it was then.

That was mightily dismissed....

Would you care to give your readers of a synopsis of the 1944-1949
time period in Greek history? Or would that be..ah...too
contradictory to your statements about universal peace love and joy?Today we have international laws but the USA is braking them all the time.If the current legislation under Bush should be judged under the samecriteria like the Nuremberg trials, they would all land on the electricchair.

Cites?

Actual cites, not some leftist blog.

Gunner

"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

Gunner wrote:
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:20:27 +0300, Xenos the elder <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:Gunner wrote:On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 03:14:07 -0500, Lawrence Glickman<lglickman@ameritech.net> wrote:>>Lg>>misc.survivalism>>War is a fact of life, you nitwit. Get _used_ to it. Get used to it.>Take 1/2 million fish from the Sea, leave enough so they can breed and>you will have another *harvest* next year.>>This has been going on since the beginning of recorded time, and you>don't like it.>>Xenos, nobody cares if you don't like it. Grow up.If he is indeed Greek, he comes from a long line of human butchers andmurderers. Thousands of years of them.We had an empire under Alexander and after him but we did not butcherpeople by the millions. Ok..how about Hundreds of Thousands? And then there were the slaves...Anyway it was then. That was mightily dismissed.... Would you care to give your readers of a synopsis of the 1944-1949 time period in Greek history? Or would that be..ah...too contradictory to your statements about universal peace love and joy?Today we have international laws but the USA is braking them all the time.If the current legislation under Bush should be judged under the samecriteria like the Nuremberg trials, they would all land on the electricchair. Cites? Actual cites, not some leftist blog.

All law comes from the barrel of a Gun.
"Mao Tse Tung"

Since we have more and bigger guns than any one else I guess we get to
make the International Laws too.

The Independent

"Pilot to Gunner: Bandits at 9 O'Clock."
Gunner "In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman Liebmann

"Xenos the elder" <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:411B1370.6050401@yahoo.com...
So the criminals and schizophrenic paranoid will buy them too.

(I knew he'd get around to me.)

Gunner wrote: On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:44:15 +0300, Xenos the elder <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:Murder is defined as the unlawful taking of human life. If executionsare provided for by law then its not murder.So if there is a law for genocide then it is OK. Genocide by definition is murder. QED there cannot be a law "for" genocide. But nice try. Come back when you have something better.
Lets call it racial cleaning as Hitler did.
Bring laws out regarding racial cleaning and you have lawful killing.
The thing is that you have nothing against the killing ( result of the
sanctions against Iraq ) of half a million Iraqi children.
Calling other nations terrorists while accepting that your government
has been killing millions of people since ww2.
Gunner "In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman Liebmann

Gunner wrote: On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:47:17 +0300, Xenos the elder <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:Godwins Law.I am permitted to brake the law like any other good American.Especially if it is an international law.You loose. Ah..no. No international laws were broken. Stretched a bit tightly..but not broken. Hence..you loose twice.
So I am a peace loving looser and your are a genocide loving nazi.
You win again.
Gunner "In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman Liebmann

Gunner wrote: On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:36:51 +0300, Xenos the elder <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:" It is a shame to fall under an enemies hand but a honor to die under afriends hand ".This is an old Greek saying.Greeks killing each other was a part of the friendship.Real murder was when barbarians were killing Greeks.I know only that oil was cheaper before the occupation of Iraq.Personally I get no satisfaction from meaningless killings. Can I safely assume you were a supporter of Ethnikos Laikos Apeleftherotikos Stratos?
Check out some non Turkish sources of what happen in Cyprus.
"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman Liebmann

Gunner wrote: On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:20:27 +0300, Xenos the elder <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:Gunner wrote:On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 03:14:07 -0500, Lawrence Glickman<lglickman@ameritech.net> wrote:>>Lg>>misc.survivalism>>War is a fact of life, you nitwit. Get _used_ to it. Get used to it.>Take 1/2 million fish from the Sea, leave enough so they can breed and>you will have another *harvest* next year.>>This has been going on since the beginning of recorded time, and you>don't like it.>>Xenos, nobody cares if you don't like it. Grow up.If he is indeed Greek, he comes from a long line of human butchers andmurderers. Thousands of years of them.We had an empire under Alexander and after him but we did not butcherpeople by the millions. Ok..how about Hundreds of Thousands? And then there were the

50. 000 civilians in Syria for resisting the troops of Alexander after
their army was defeated.
What about your Red Indians?
There still plenty of Syrians, Egyptians and Persians left after Alexander.
Not so with the Red Indians. slaves...
It was forbidden by law to kill slaves.
A prisoner of war was a slave fore 3 years and after that he was a free man.
Why don't you try the stone age Greeks and compare with today Americans?
Only 200-300 years back in history and your ancestors were committing
genocide on a continental scale.
Infected blankets for the poor freezing Indians?
That happen about 100 years back?Anyway it was then. That was mightily dismissed.... Would you care to give your readers of a synopsis of the 1944-1949 time period in Greek history? Or would that be..ah...too contradictory to your statements about universal peace love and joy?
We had a civil war.
Didn't the US had a civil war once too?
Today we have international laws but the USA is braking them all the time.If the current legislation under Bush should be judged under the samecriteria like the Nuremberg trials, they would all land on the electricchair. Cites? Actual cites, not some leftist blog. Gunner "In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman Liebmann

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 08:50:13 +0300, Xenos the elder
<dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:
Genocide by definition is murder. QED there cannot be a law "for" genocide. But nice try. Come back when you have something better.Lets call it racial cleaning as Hitler did.Bring laws out regarding racial cleaning and you have lawful killing.

Thats a hallmark of the Europeans. Its quite unConstitutional in the
US, so it cannot happen.
The thing is that you have nothing against the killing ( result of thesanctions against Iraq ) of half a million Iraqi children.

Ah....no. The half million dead kids was the result of SadMan and Co.
along with the heads of several European nations syphoning off the oil
for food money into their personal bank accounts or purchase of
military armaments from those same Europeans. Notibly those that
refused to join in deposing Saddam.
Calling other nations terrorists while accepting that your governmenthas been killing millions of people since ww2.

You still havent provided any cites, just opinions. Please provide
cites, as your opinion means ****e.

Gunner


"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 08:51:53 +0300, Xenos the elder
<dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:
Gunner wrote: On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:47:17 +0300, Xenos the elder <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:>Godwins Law.I am permitted to brake the law like any other good American.Especially if it is an international law.You loose. Ah..no. No international laws were broken. Stretched a bit tightly..but not broken. Hence..you loose twice.So I am a peace loving looser and your are a genocide loving nazi.You win again.

Two strikes. Godwins Law and blind bias and hatred based on your
opinion and no facts.

Seems you are indeed a looser.

Gunner

Gunner "In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman Liebmann

"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 08:53:03 +0300, Xenos the elder
<dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:
Gunner wrote: On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:36:51 +0300, Xenos the elder <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:" It is a shame to fall under an enemies hand but a honor to die under afriends hand ".This is an old Greek saying.Greeks killing each other was a part of the friendship.Real murder was when barbarians were killing Greeks.I know only that oil was cheaper before the occupation of Iraq.Personally I get no satisfaction from meaningless killings. Can I safely assume you were a supporter of Ethnikos Laikos Apeleftherotikos Stratos?Check out some non Turkish sources of what happen in Cyprus.

Oh I have indeed done just that. Seems that the peace loving modern
Greeks love slaughter.

Gunner
"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman Liebmann

"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 04:25:34 GMT, "Jeff McCann" <NoSpam@NoThanks.org>
wrote:
A large number of sources recommend impeachment of George W. Bush; in earlyMay, 2004, a Google search for impeach Bush returns about 87,000 hits.Another Google search suggests a reason: More than 1.9 million hits forBush lies. The unfolding of events over the past year have only added reasonfor concern.

A large number of sources believe that any letter addressed to Elvis
will eventually reach him. Somewhere around 10% of the US population
as I recall.

Gunner

"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 23:10:20 -0500, Fido <tomchandNS@gwi.net> wrote:
. I wonder if I could see thebullet from the .45 if I shot a steel bullet on a sunny day?

Few bullets are steel. But yes..if the sun is shining from over your
shoulder low in the sky, you can indeed often see the bullets path on
occasion.

You can also see the flight of a ultra high varmint bullet if fired
under the same lighting conditions and on a humid day its quite easy
to see, particularly if laying next to the shooter and watching
through a spotting scope.

Gunner

"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

Gunner wrote: On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 08:50:13 +0300, Xenos the elder <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:Genocide by definition is murder. QED there cannot be a law "for"genocide.But nice try. Come back when you have something better.Lets call it racial cleaning as Hitler did.Bring laws out regarding racial cleaning and you have lawful killing. Thats a hallmark of the Europeans. Its quite unConstitutional in the US, so it cannot happen.The thing is that you have nothing against the killing ( result of thesanctions against Iraq ) of half a million Iraqi children. Ah....no. The half million dead kids was the result of SadMan and Co.
You mean USA?
along with the heads of several European nations syphoning off the oil
Yes there was no American oil company then Iraq.
This is what the whole war is about then?
for food money into their personal bank accounts or purchase of

military armaments from those same Europeans.
Any prove?
Saddams army was a joke compared to 9 years earlier and even then he
could not beat Iran with the help of the USA and with the WMD provided
by the USA. Notibly those that refused to join in deposing Saddam.
To get rid of a dictator you don't kill half a million children or it
shows how little regard you have about human life's.
Calling other nations terrorists while accepting that your governmenthas been killing millions of people since ww2. You still havent provided any cites, just opinions. Please provide cites, as your opinion means ****e.
Run a google search.
Just check the Vietnam war and you will come up with millions of dead
civilians.
" Communism " was the scare then and now its " terrorism ".
Gunner "In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman Liebmann

Gunner wrote: On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 08:53:03 +0300, Xenos the elder <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:Gunner wrote:On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:36:51 +0300, Xenos the elder<dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:>" It is a shame to fall under an enemies hand but a honor to die under a>friends hand ".>This is an old Greek saying.>Greeks killing each other was a part of the friendship.>Real murder was when barbarians were killing Greeks.>I know only that oil was cheaper before the occupation of Iraq.>Personally I get no satisfaction from meaningless killings.Can I safely assume you were a supporter of Ethnikos LaikosApeleftherotikos Stratos?Check out some non Turkish sources of what happen in Cyprus. Oh I have indeed done just that. Seems that the peace loving modern Greeks love slaughter.
Rubbish.
Gunner "In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush bythe Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye pluckedout by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - NormanLiebmann "In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman Liebmann

Gunner wrote: On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 08:51:53 +0300, Xenos the elder <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:Gunner wrote:On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:47:17 +0300, Xenos the elder<dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:>>Godwins Law.>>I am permitted to brake the law like any other good American.>Especially if it is an international law.>You loose.Ah..no. No international laws were broken. Stretched a bittightly..but not broken.Hence..you loose twice.So I am a peace loving looser and your are a genocide loving nazi.You win again. Two strikes. Godwins Law and blind bias and hatred based on your opinion and no facts. Seems you are indeed a looser.
And you are a fascist.
A real looser in real life but playing it " tough " on the internet.
GunnerGunner "In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush bythe Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye pluckedout by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - NormanLiebmann "In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman Liebmann

"Gunner" <gunnerNOSPAM@lightspeed.net> wrote in message
news:pqnoh0hhdtmp0tskddqqmfj2pvpqadk53e@4ax.com... On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 04:25:34 GMT, "Jeff McCann" <NoSpam@NoThanks.org> wrote:A large number of sources recommend impeachment of George W. Bush; in
earlyMay, 2004, a Google search for impeach Bush returns about 87,000 hits.Another Google search suggests a reason: More than 1.9 million hits forBush lies. The unfolding of events over the past year have only added
reasonfor concern. A large number of sources believe that any letter addressed to Elvis will eventually reach him. Somewhere around 10% of the US population as I recall.

Don't they eventually end up in the USPS Dead Letter Office?

Jeff

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:02:59 +0300, Xenos the elder
<dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:
Gunner wrote: On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:20:27 +0300, Xenos the elder <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:Gunner wrote:>On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 03:14:07 -0500, Lawrence Glickman><lglickman@ameritech.net> wrote:>>>>>>Lg>>>misc.survivalism>>>>War is a fact of life, you nitwit. Get _used_ to it. Get used to it.>>Take 1/2 million fish from the Sea, leave enough so they can breed and>>you will have another *harvest* next year.>>>>This has been going on since the beginning of recorded time, and you>>don't like it.>>>>Xenos, nobody cares if you don't like it. Grow up.>>>If he is indeed Greek, he comes from a long line of human butchers and>murderers. Thousands of years of them.We had an empire under Alexander and after him but we did not butcherpeople by the millions. Ok..how about Hundreds of Thousands? And then there were the50. 000 civilians in Syria for resisting the troops of Alexander aftertheir army was defeated.

And since then? Snicker.
What about your Red Indians?There still plenty of Syrians, Egyptians and Persians left after Alexander.Not so with the Red Indians.

Ah Oedopus...Im partially Red Indian as are many here on
misc.survivalism. In fact, I believe that the recent census showed
more Native Americans living today than when the white man first set
foot on the continent.
slaves...It was forbidden by law to kill slaves.A prisoner of war was a slave fore 3 years and after that he was a free man.

And regular slaves? You folks had a completely slave based society.
What was it..something like 60% slaves?
Why don't you try the stone age Greeks and compare with today Americans?

Because Greeks are Greeks?
Only 200-300 years back in history and your ancestors were committinggenocide on a continental scale.

Really? If so many of us here can claim Native American blood, and
there are more indians today then 200 years ago...it would appear that
your claims of genocide are bogus.
Infected blankets for the poor freezing Indians?That happen about 100 years back?

The British invented that particular parlor trick, along with
scalping.Anyway it was then. That was mightily dismissed.... Would you care to give your readers of a synopsis of the 1944-1949 time period in Greek history? Or would that be..ah...too contradictory to your statements about universal peace love and joy?
We had a civil war.

No ****? But..but but..I thought you lads were all sweetness and joy
and love and posing for sculptors.
Didn't the US had a civil war once too?

Indeed.Today we have international laws but the USA is braking them all the time.If the current legislation under Bush should be judged under the samecriteria like the Nuremberg trials, they would all land on the electricchair. Cites? Actual cites, not some leftist blog.

I notice so far you have not cited anything yet. Is there some reason?

Gunner

"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:36:50 +0300, Xenos the elder
<dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:
Gunner wrote: On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 08:50:13 +0300, Xenos the elder <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:>Genocide by definition is murder. QED there cannot be a law "for">genocide.>>But nice try. Come back when you have something better.Lets call it racial cleaning as Hitler did.Bring laws out regarding racial cleaning and you have lawful killing. Thats a hallmark of the Europeans. Its quite unConstitutional in the US, so it cannot happen.The thing is that you have nothing against the killing ( result of thesanctions against Iraq ) of half a million Iraqi children. Ah....no. The half million dead kids was the result of SadMan and Co.You mean USA?
No. I mean Germany, France and Russia. Need the cites? You will look
even a bigger fool if I produce them.
along with the heads of several European nations syphoning off the oilYes there was no American oil company then Iraq.This is what the whole war is about then?

No. Is that what you think? for food money into their personal bank accounts or purchase of military armaments from those same Europeans.Any prove?

Sure!

http://www.insightmag.com/main.cfm?include=detail&storyid=657739
http://www.economist.com/agenda/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2618260

and an editorial:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/898433/posts

"This is why I always tell you: follow the money. Kofi Annan
personally oversaw this program, and okayed requests under this
program for things like laser light show equipment and cartoon making
apparatus for Baghdad Bob. The United Nations also reaped a tidy 2.2%
windfall off every drop of Iraqi oil sold.

Annan operated in secret, accountable to nobody. He's refused all
requests to make records of this sweet deal public. The UN thinks of
itself as unaccountable to anyone, but who keeps watch on whether
they're helping the people where they deploy? Claudia Rosett's New
York Times column which you can hear me read below - "Oil, Food and a
Whole Lot of Questions" - reports that this program put "a veil of
secrecy over tens of billions of dollars in contracts is an invitation
to kickbacks, political back-scratching and smuggling done under cover
of relief operations."

Rosett: "I found nothing that would seem to contradict General Tommy
Franks's comment that the system should have been named the
'oil-for-palace program.'" This is why we don't want Hans Blix or
Koffi Annan anywhere near Iraq. The US is pushing to lift 12-year-old
sanctions while the same Russians and French who wanted to lift the
sanctions they blamed for Iraqi suffering under Saddam want to keep
them in place! Reuters reports that Annan is at the Security Council
talking about getting oil flowing again. There is no way Annan wants
this embargo to end, because that would end the oil-for-food cash
pipeline. This is a huge, huge untold story.This is why I always tell
you: follow the money. Kofi Annan personally oversaw this program, and
okayed requests under this program for things like laser light show
equipment and cartoon making apparatus for Baghdad Bob. The United
Nations also reaped a tidy 2.2% windfall off every drop of Iraqi oil
sold.

Annan operated in secret, accountable to nobody. He's refused all
requests to make records of this sweet deal public. The UN thinks of
itself as unaccountable to anyone, but who keeps watch on whether
they're helping the people where they deploy? Claudia Rosett's New
York Times column which you can hear me read below - "Oil, Food and a
Whole Lot of Questions" - reports that this program put "a veil of
secrecy over tens of billions of dollars in contracts is an invitation
to kickbacks, political back-scratching and smuggling done under cover
of relief operations."

Rosett: "I found nothing that would seem to contradict General Tommy
Franks's comment that the system should have been named the
'oil-for-palace program.'" This is why we don't want Hans Blix or
Koffi Annan anywhere near Iraq. The US is pushing to lift 12-year-old
sanctions while the same Russians and French who wanted to lift the
sanctions they blamed for Iraqi suffering under Saddam want to keep
them in place! Reuters reports that Annan is at the Security Council
talking about getting oil flowing again. There is no way Annan wants
this embargo to end, because that would end the oil-for-food cash
pipeline. This is a huge, huge untold story."


You may also wish to read this
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=1344
Saddams army was a joke compared to 9 years earlier and even then hecould not beat Iran with the help of the USA and with the WMD providedby the USA.

Once again..the US never furnished WMD to Saddam. They did however
allow the Germans and French to do so.
Notibly those that refused to join in deposing Saddam.To get rid of a dictator you don't kill half a million children or itshows how little regard you have about human life's.

Of course not. We simply go in and kick his ***. Which we did.Calling other nations terrorists while accepting that your governmenthas been killing millions of people since ww2. You still havent provided any cites, just opinions. Please provide cites, as your opinion means ****e.Run a google search.

No..the way this works, is when you make a claim, and are called on
it, you have to provide the cites and then I get to refute them.
Just check the Vietnam war and you will come up with millions of deadcivilians.

Millions? Gosh. And the Americans did that? Wow.

Cites?
" Communism " was the scare then and now its " terrorism ".

Got any idea how many Vietnamese the Communists killed? Ive good a
good idea. Ive seen enough dead villagers killed by Commnists to last
me several lifetimes worth of nightmares.
Id suggest you knock off the obviously ignorant bias and get your
facts in order before trying to run a scam on folks in MS.

Gunner

"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:46:18 +0300, Xenos the elder
<dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:
Seems you are indeed a looser.And you are a fascist.

Odd..a Greek with the history of the recent civil war behind him
accusing a libertarian of being a fascist.
A real looser in real life but playing it " tough " on the internet.
Everyone knows Im a big old harmless fuzzball.

Gunner

"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:44:35 +0300, Xenos the elder
<dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:
Oh I have indeed done just that. Seems that the peace loving modern Greeks love slaughter.Rubbish

A bloody civil war not that far behind you and you can say Rubbish?


And shall we ask the Turks?

Snicker


Gunner

"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 06:47:47 GMT, "Jeff McCann" <NoSpam@NoThanks.org>
wrote:
"Gunner" <gunnerNOSPAM@lightspeed.net> wrote in messagenews:pqnoh0hhdtmp0tskddqqmfj2pvpqadk53e@4ax .com... On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 04:25:34 GMT, "Jeff McCann" <NoSpam@NoThanks.org> wrote:A large number of sources recommend impeachment of George W. Bush; inearlyMay, 2004, a Google search for impeach Bush returns about 87,000 hits.Another Google search suggests a reason: More than 1.9 million hits forBush lies. The unfolding of events over the past year have only addedreasonfor concern. A large number of sources believe that any letter addressed to Elvis will eventually reach him. Somewhere around 10% of the US population as I recall.Don't they eventually end up in the USPS Dead Letter Office?Jeff
Ayup. So having lots of misguided people mentioned as some citation is
only an exercise in numbers, not content and of no import.

Gunner

"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

In OT Iraq: one more defeatist editorial on 11 Aug 2004 17:10:53
GMT, by Ignoramus5937, we read:
``... the United States has not in fact brought freedom to Iraq. It hasbrought instead death, destruction and now near-chaos. ... Forget asreasons for the war weapons of mass destruction, Iraqi support ofal-Qaida terrorists and even increased oil supplies. ... So why dowe stay?''http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04223/359100.stmEditorial: Iraq burning / Why are we still there?Tuesday, August 10, 2004Pittsburgh Post-GazetteThe now five-day-long battle between American and Iraqi forces for thecity of Najaf continues, the Iraqi death toll from it rises to anestimated 360 and the Shiite holy city comes increasingly to resembleThree Rivers Stadium the morning after the implosion.A question becomes more nagging: Are Iraqis, in fact, better off withtheir America-brought freedom than they were under Saddam Hussein?The United States has taken great pains not to tabulate the death tollof Iraqis since the invasion in March of last year. It has nonethelessbeen estimated by other observers to stand between 10,000 and15,000. American forces' losses now number 931, those of othercountries, 123.Saddam Hussein's regime killed a lot of people, mostly Kurds andShiites, but the death toll it exacted from the Iraqi people tailedoff after it had put down the unsuccessful Shiite and Kurd rebellionsthat followed the first Gulf war 12 years ago. American and Britishenforcement of no-fly zones in the north and south helped.The damage rendered to Iraqi economic and social infrastructure,ranging from oil installations to mosques and other holy sites,particularly in the predominantly Shiite cities of Najaf and Karbala,but also in the Sunni centers of Fallujah and Tikrit, may have by nowexceeded what was incurred during the Iran-Iraq war, the first Gulfwar and the rebellions.Some of it has been Iraqi-on-Iraqi destruction, but there is almostnothing that can match the impact of U.S. high-tech attacks,particularly from the air, in terms of inflicting damage.A recent unfortunate phenomenon of the 15-month U.S. occupation andappointed Iraqi interim authority period has been the outflow ofIraq's Christian minority from the country. They are at increasingrisk in the deteriorating security situation and menaced in a now morepoliticized religious context by militant Islamic extremists, domesticand foreign, Shiite and Sunni.So, basically, one can argue that the United States has not in factbrought freedom to Iraq. It has brought instead death, destruction andnow near-chaos, including forcing Christians who have lived theresince the time of Christ to flee the country to Syria, Jordan andLebanon.Forget as reasons for the war weapons of mass destruction, Iraqisupport of al-Qaida terrorists and even increased oil supplies. And isIsrael really safer with a hot war being waged a few hundred milesfrom its borders and the Arab world thoroughly riled up over that war?So why do we stay? The place now called Iraq has been there in oneform or other since the dawn of recorded history. Does anyone thinkthe situation there will get better if we stay? Or that it will becomesubstantially worse if we leave? Is our presence not in factincreasingly the bone of contention among warring Iraqis?Sen. John Kerry and President Bush need to think very carefully aboutthat central question -- stay or get out -- as they as presidentialcandidates consider and suggest what the United States should do next.

The main reason the war continues at this moment is to
get Bush reelected.

In Re: OT Iraq: one more defeatist editorial on Wed, 11 Aug 2004
14:43:20 -0400, by Lik Mi Sak, we read:
"Ignoramus5937" <ignoramus5937@NOSPAM.5937.invalid> wrote in messagenews:cfdjut$ug0$0@pita.alt.net... ``... the United States has not in fact brought freedom to Iraq. It has brought instead death, destruction and now near-chaos. ...AWESOME, we kicked ***, this mofo's deserved it, after sponsoring terrorismfor the past 20 years.

Ah, the MTV generation at its best - feminazi exclamations
and whiggerisms. How classy.

You won't think its awesome when you discover that you just set
yourself up to get your *** kicked.

1. The 'mofo' you refer to is not the target of the daily
killings.

2. The 'mofo' you refer to was not a 'sponsor' of terrorism.

Ignorante you are just jealous that you ruskis got you rear and beat:)

In Re: OT Iraq: one more defeatist editorial on Thu, 12 Aug 2004
04:39:02 -0500, by Lawrence Glickman, we read:
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 04:24:06 -0500, Lawrence Glickman<lglickman@ameritech.net> wrote:On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:08:12 GMT, Gunner <gunnerNOSPAM@lightspeed.net>wrote:On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 03:14:07 -0500, Lawrence Glickman<lglickman@ameritech.net> wrote:>>>>Lg>>misc.survivalism>>War is a fact of life, you nitwit. Get _used_ to it. Get used to it.>Take 1/2 million fish from the Sea, leave enough so they can breed and>you will have another *harvest* next year.>>This has been going on since the beginning of recorded time, and you>don't like it.>>Xenos, nobody cares if you don't like it. Grow up.If he is indeed Greek, he comes from a long line of human butchers andmurderers. Thousands of years of them.Shrug. They murdered their own citizens by the long ton.GunnerCan you find any Greek *Art* that doesn't show a Greek Warrior with aspear in one hand and a shield in the other?I'll go one better than that.Look at the Statue of Athena at the Acropolis. Even a snake is behindthe shield, hiding the hideous Gorgon, the other hand holds theFalcon. She was in fact, the goddess of War.
================================================== ==============Athena was primarily the goddess of the Greek cities, of industry andthe arts, and, in later mythology, of wisdom; she was also goddess ofwar.============================================ ====================
It seems that KILLING was an integral part of the Greek Culture. Gofigure. Along comes Xenos the Elder who wishes to revise history.Might work on the younger kids, but we older folks ( elders ) know thereal story.

Athena was not a 'goddess of war'. The Athenians were not
imperialists. Athena was the goddess of protection for the
city state of Athens.

Lg

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:53:47 GMT, Strabo <strabo@flashnet.com> wrote:
Athena was not a 'goddess of war'. The Athenians were notimperialists. Athena was the goddess of protection for thecity state of Athens.

Yes, that was ONE of her attributes. Just one of -many-.
================================================== ===========
Athena-Godess of Agriculture

Athena

ATHENA, also known as Pallas Athena, one of the most important
goddesses in
Greek mythology. Athena sprang fullgrown and armored from the forehead
of the
god Zeus and was his favorite child. He entrusted her with his shield,
adorned
with the hideous head of Medusa the Gorgon, his buckler, and his
principal
weapon, the thunderbolt. A virgin goddess, she was called Parthenos
("the
maiden").

Her major temple, the Parthenon, was in Athens, which, according to
legend,
became hers as a result of her gift of the olive tree to the Athenian
people.
Athena was primarily the goddess of the Greek cities, of industry and
the arts,
and, in later mythology, of wisdom; she was also goddess of war.

Athena was also a patron of the agricultural arts and of the crafts
of women,
especially spinning and weaving. Among her gifts to man were the
inventions of
the plow and the flute and the arts of taming animals, building ships,
and
making shoes. She was often associated with birds, especially the owl.
================================================== ===========

SPANK!

Gunner wrote: On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:36:50 +0300, Xenos the elder <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:Gunner wrote:
Just check the Vietnam war and you will come up with millions of deadcivilians. Millions? Gosh. And the Americans did that? Wow.
Article is about Vietnam but other countries around Vietnam were bombed too.
__________________

Vietnam War Casualties
Estimating the number killed in the conflict is extremely difficult.
Official records are hard to find or nonexistent and many of those
killed were literally blasted to pieces by bombing. For many years the
North Vietnamese suppressed the true number of their casualties for
propaganda purposes. It is also difficult to say exactly what counts as
a "Vietnam war casualty"; people are still being killed today by
unexploded ordinance, particularly cluster bomblets. Environmental
effects from chemical agents and the colossal social problems caused by
a devastated country with so many dead surely caused many more lives to
be shortened. In addition, the Khmer Rouge would probably not have come
into power and committed their slaughters without the destabilization of
the war, particularly of the American bombing campaigns to 'clear out
the sanctuaries' in Cambodia.

The lowest casualty estimates, based on the now-renounced North
Vietnamese statements, are around 1.5 million Vietnamese killed. Vietnam
released figures on April 3, 1995 that a total of one million Vietnamese
combatants and four million civilians were killed in the war. The
accuracy of these figures has generally not been challenged. 58,226
American soldiers also died in the war or are missing in action.
Australia lost almost 500 of the 47,000 troops they had deployed to
Vietnam and New Zealand lost 38 soldiers.

In the aftermath of the war many Americans came to believe that some of
the 2,300 American soldiers listed as "Missing in Action" had in fact
been taken prisoner by the DRV and held indefinitely. "Missing in
Action" is a term applied to missing soldiers whose status cannot be
determined through eyewitness accounts of their death, or a body. While
little credible evidence has been shown for this, images of tortured,
emaciated prisoners of war (notably in the sequel to Rambo) continue to
evoke anger among many Americans. The Vietnamese list over 200,000 of
their own soldiers Missing in Action, and MIA soldiers from World War I
and II continue to be unearthed in Europe.

Both during and after the war, significant human rights violations
occurred. Both North and South Vietnamese had large numbers of political
prisoners, many of whom were killed or tortured. In 1970, two American
congressmen visiting South Vietnam discovered the existence of "tiger
cages", which were small prison cells used for torturing South
Vietnamese political prisoners. After the war, actions taken by the
victors in Vietnam, including firing squads, torture, concentration
camps and "re-education," led to the exodus of hundreds of thousands of
Vietnamese. Many of these refugees fled by boat and thus gave rise to
the phrase "boat people." They emigrated to Hong Kong, France, the
United States, Canada, and other countries.

Many effects of the animosity and ill will generated during the Vietnam
War are still felt today among those who lived through this turbulent
time in American and Indochinese history.

American involvement in the war was a gradual process, as its military
involvement increased over the years under successive U.S. presidents,
both Democrat and Republican (including Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson,
and Nixon), despite warnings by the American military leadership against
a major ground war in Asia. There was never a formal declaration of war
but there were a series of presidential decisions that increased the
number of "military advisers" to the region. One of the first occurred
on July 27, 1964 when 5,000 additional American military advisers were
ordered sent to South Vietnam which brought the total number of US
forces in Vietnam to 21,000.

Then on August 4, 1964 American destroyers USS Maddox and USS C. Turner
Joy were attacked in the Gulf of Tonkin. Air support from the carrier
USS Ticonderoga sinks two, possibly three North Vietnamese gunboats. The
event was labeled the "Gulf of Tonkin incident" by reporters and the
next day Operation Pierce Arrow was launched in retaliation; aircraft
from the USS Ticonderoga and USS Constellation bombed North Vietnam.

http://www.vietnam-war.info/casualties/

Cites?" Communism " was the scare then and now its " terrorism ". Got any idea how many Vietnamese the Communists killed? Ive good a good idea. Ive seen enough dead villagers killed by Commnists to last me several lifetimes worth of nightmares.
Then I guess it makes it OK to go to Indo-China and kill millions of people.
" Somebody is beating he's wife up ".
" Now you have an excuse to neat him and he's wife up and their children "
What a logic.
Id suggest you knock off the obviously ignorant bias and get your facts in order before trying to run a scam on folks in MS. Gunner "In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman Liebmann

Gunner wrote: On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:46:18 +0300, Xenos the elder <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:Seems you are indeed a looser.And you are a fascist. Odd..a Greek with the history of the recent civil war behind him accusing a libertarian of being a fascist.
For you the half million dead Iraqi children ( because of sanctions )
was fun. So you are clearly a fascist.
A real looser in real life but playing it " tough " on the internet. Everyone knows Im a big old harmless fuzzball. Gunner "In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman Liebmann

Gunner wrote: On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:44:35 +0300, Xenos the elder <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:Oh I have indeed done just that. Seems that the peace loving modernGreeks love slaughter.Rubbish A bloody civil war not that far behind you and you can say Rubbish?
I am 51 and it was not in my time but in my time was the military junta
which was supported by the USA then.
The last supporters of the Apartheid regime were the USA too.

And shall we ask the Turks? Snicker Gunner "In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman Liebmann

Gunner wrote: On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 08:50:13 +0300, Xenos the elder <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:Genocide by definition is murder. QED there cannot be a law "for"genocide.But nice try. Come back when you have something better.Lets call it racial cleaning as Hitler did.Bring laws out regarding racial cleaning and you have lawful killing. Thats a hallmark of the Europeans. Its quite unConstitutional in the US, so it cannot happen.The thing is that you have nothing against the killing ( result of thesanctions against Iraq ) of half a million Iraqi children. Ah....no. The half million dead kids was the result of SadMan and Co. along with the heads of several European nations syphoning off the oil for food money into their personal bank accounts or purchase of military armaments
Like what? from those same Europeans. Notibly those that refused to join in deposing Saddam.
Iraq could not import machinery for water purification because those
machines " could " be used to make WMD.
Important medicaments could not reach Iraq too because of the by the US
enforced boycott.
Now who is there to blame?
Not the US according to gunner.
Calling other nations terrorists while accepting that your governmenthas been killing millions of people since ww2. You still havent provided any cites, just opinions. Please provide cites, as your opinion means ****e. Gunner "In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman Liebmann

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 17:04:59 +0300, Xenos the elder
<dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:
Gunner wrote: On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 08:50:13 +0300, Xenos the elder <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:>Genocide by definition is murder. QED there cannot be a law "for">genocide.>>But nice try. Come back when you have something better.Lets call it racial cleaning as Hitler did.Bring laws out regarding racial cleaning and you have lawful killing. Thats a hallmark of the Europeans. Its quite unConstitutional in the US, so it cannot happen.The thing is that you have nothing against the killing ( result of thesanctions against Iraq ) of half a million Iraqi children. Ah....no. The half million dead kids was the result of SadMan and Co. along with the heads of several European nations syphoning off the oil for food money into their personal bank accounts or purchase of military armamentsLike what? from those same Europeans. Notibly those that refused to join in deposing Saddam.Iraq could not import machinery for water purification because thosemachines " could " be used to make WMD.

Sure he could. God knows he got enough munitions and what not through
via Syria etc. If it had been on his list of necessities, he could
have gotten water treatment parts that way as well.
Important medicaments could not reach Iraq too because of the by the USenforced boycott.

See above
Now who is there to blame?

Saddam & Co. of course.
Not the US according to gunner.

Correct.

Gunner

"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:55:33 +0300, Xenos the elder
<dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:
Gunner wrote: On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:46:18 +0300, Xenos the elder <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:>Seems you are indeed a looser.And you are a fascist. Odd..a Greek with the history of the recent civil war behind him accusing a libertarian of being a fascist.
For you the half million dead Iraqi children ( because of sanctions )was fun. So you are clearly a fascist.

Actually No, not fun. Quite a tragedy. If sheer numbers of dead
children are the basis of some political orientation, then based on
historical data, by your criteria Id have to be Communist, as they
murdered far far more people than did the fascists.

But then..you cant blame folks you agree with...

Are you by any chance a dues payimg member of the KKE?

Chuckle

Gunner

"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:59:48 +0300, Xenos the elder
<dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:
Gunner wrote: On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:44:35 +0300, Xenos the elder <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:>Oh I have indeed done just that. Seems that the peace loving modern>Greeks love slaughter.Rubbish A bloody civil war not that far behind you and you can say Rubbish?I am 51 and it was not in my time but in my time was the military juntawhich was supported by the USA then.The last supporters of the Apartheid regime were the USA too.

So are you a member of PASOK or the KKE?

Gunner

"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

Empress wrote: The whole world looks up to the US; even now, even as pissed at us as the Greeks are, about Cyprus, about the Serbs, whatever. We're the world's greatest hope, even among the very poor and the hopelessly confused.

Oh dear - I think it's you that's "hopelessly confused".

The world looks on the US like kids look on the playground bully. A
mean-spirited, greedy and humourless bully. Kids deal with bullies in
different ways. Some kids will try to make friends with the bully as a
way to protect themselves and maybe even join in with the bullying and
share in the spoils. Most kids will just avoid the bully and hope that
he doesn't notice them and steal their lunch money. Either way, it's not
respect - it's just fear. But who knows, maybe one day some of the kids
will get together and kick the bully's *** ?

Paul

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 18:04:54 GMT, Paul Russell <prussell@sonic.net>
wrote:
Oh dear - I think it's you that's "hopelessly confused".The world looks on the US like kids look on the playground bully. Amean-spirited, greedy and humourless bully. Kids deal with bullies indifferent ways. Some kids will try to make friends with the bully as away to protect themselves and maybe even join in with the bullying andshare in the spoils. Most kids will just avoid the bully and hope thathe doesn't notice them and steal their lunch money. Either way, it's notrespect - it's just fear. But who knows, maybe one day some of the kidswill get together and kick the bully's *** ?

Bwahaha!

You're a real crack up, Paul. One thing I like about you, you're not
above using the tactics you criticize in other people...

~Queenie

From a friend:

"Good for you and your Dad.

Too bad the last generation of Greeks, the WWII generation, is dying
out. They remembered that when the Nazis herded all the women and
children in the outlying villages into the local church, burned it and
machine-gunned anyone that came out, it was British and American
commandos that armed the surviving men and taught them how to kill
lots and lots of Nazis.

So the villages become socialist or communist now, and the cities are
anti-American for other reasons, they only listen to what they read in
the paper without applying any common sense. Sounds like New Jersey."
;-)

"Paul Russell" <prussell@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:ap7Tc.7325$54.111911@typhoon.sonic.net... Empress wrote: The whole world looks up to the US; even now, even as pissed at us
as the Greeks are, about Cyprus, about the Serbs, whatever. We're the world's greatest hope, even among the very poor and the hopelessly confused. Oh dear - I think it's you that's "hopelessly confused". The world looks on the US like kids look on the playground bully. A mean-spirited, greedy and humourless bully. Kids deal with bullies in different ways. Some kids will try to make friends with the bully as a way to protect themselves and maybe even join in with the bullying and share in the spoils. Most kids will just avoid the bully and hope that he doesn't notice them and steal their lunch money. Either way, it's
not respect - it's just fear. But who knows, maybe one day some of the
kids will get together and kick the bully's *** ?

We'd rather be appreciated. Respect is nice, but non-essential. Fear?
OK, we'll settle for that. Fear and envy go together nicely. Envy us
all you want, but just remember, don't piss us off!

Jeff
P.S. Please also keep in mind that our little Georgie does NOT play well
with others, so it is especially important not to piss him off by doing
something silly, like trying to kill his daddy or aid terrorism. But
the First Cowboy will be headed back to the ol' ranch after our November
roundup. Yippee-Ki-Yay!

Queenie wrote: Too bad the last generation of Greeks, the WWII generation, is dying out. They remembered that when the Nazis herded all the women and children in the outlying villages into the local church, burned it and machine-gunned anyone that came out, it was British and American commandos that armed the surviving men and taught them how to kill lots and lots of Nazis.

This is also the time of the year that the few remaining survivors of
Hiroshima commemorate one of the worst ever crimes against humanity. The
US has shown that it has no qualms about using WMD's against civilian
populations in the past, and presumably will continue to do so in the
future. The Iraqi people have lost one tinpot dictator with imaginary
WMD's and gained a much bigger one with real WMD's. You must be very proud.

Paul

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 20:13:01 GMT, Paul Russell <prussell@sonic.net>
wrote:
This is also the time of the year that the few remaining survivors ofHiroshima commemorate one of the worst ever crimes against humanity. TheUS has shown that it has no qualms about using WMD's against civilianpopulations in the past, and presumably will continue to do so in thefuture. The Iraqi people have lost one tinpot dictator with imaginaryWMD's and gained a much bigger one with real WMD's. You must be very proud.

Imbecile.

~Empress

"If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen."
~Harry Truman

"Paul Russell" <prussell@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:ap7Tc.7325$54.111911@typhoon.sonic.net... Empress wrote: The whole world looks up to the US; even now, even as pissed at us as the Greeks are, about Cyprus, about the Serbs, whatever. We're the world's greatest hope, even among the very poor and the hopelessly confused. Oh dear - I think it's you that's "hopelessly confused". The world looks on the US like kids look on the playground bully. A mean-spirited, greedy and humourless bully. Kids deal with bullies in different ways. Some kids will try to make friends with the bully as a way to protect themselves and maybe even join in with the bullying and share in the spoils. Most kids will just avoid the bully and hope that he doesn't notice them and steal their lunch money. Either way, it's not respect - it's just fear. But who knows, maybe one day some of the kids will get together and kick the bully's *** ? Paul

Then why do so many people wish to come live in the U.S....? I might have to
put up with the bully on the playground... but I sure as hell wouldn't move
in with him....

This is a somewhat confusing set of articles. If I follow, people are
taking different views of the situation in Iraq. So far so good. Some
are arguing that their positions are "obviously right", in ways that
make little sense to me, but that's also par for the course.

I doubt anybody is very much interested, but conservatives are not at
all monolithic on their view of the situation. There's an interesting
interview running in "The American Conservative" with someone who has
studied Osama bin Laden, and who takes the view that George W Bush has
played exactly into Osama's plan by invading Iraq. Osama doesn't care
about Iraqis, and he didn't like Saddam, but -- by getting the USA to
invade yet another country holy to muslims -- Osama has scored a great
PR goal in terms of getting support and recruits from Islamic countries:

http://www.amconmag.com/2004_08_02/article.html

You may disagree with some elements of this interview, but there's no
way to dismiss it as anti-Bush rantings from wacko liberals.

*

Some other elements of this discussion have made no sense at all.

Someone called "Lik Mi Sak (blubbering123@juno.com)" wrote that the
death and destruction in Iraq was deserved, "after sponsoring terrorism
for the past 20 years." It's not clear to me what sense this makes;
most of the dead people in Iraq had no say whatever in how the
government was run. They were also victims of Saddam, and at the least
we should admit that the war has brought great harm to people who did
not deserve it. War always does. Sometimes it may be necessary, but
that doesn't make it good.

At least let's be honest and mature enough to admit that invading Iraq
has resulted in the deaths of many innocent people and much disruption
and damage. You may feel that this harm was worthwhile, in light of the
ultimate goal, but in that case you should say that. Acting like
thousands of innocents haven't been harmed, or saying that it's good
to slaughter civilians, is ridiculous.

*

Writing about someone called "Xenos the Elder", "Gunner
<gunnerNOSPAM@lightspeed.net>" wrote: If he is indeed Greek, he comes from a long line of human butchers and murderers. Thousands of years of them. Shrug. They murdered their own citizens by the long ton.

You come from a long line of butchers and murderers too, and so do I,
and so does everybody else. Your past human ancestors (civilized and
otherwise) were just as violent as everybody else's. Your ancestors
have also murdered their own citizens by the ton.

How people behaved many of years ago has nothing to do with the morality
of actions today, or with the validity of criticism. Who cares what was
done by people now dead who happened to live on the same dirt someone
else lives on now?

Thousands of years ago, Greeks worshipped Zeus and Athena and the rest
of that crowd. Now those Greeks are all dead, and most (90%) the people
who live on the same dirt are Christians. Your comment is somewhat like
dismissing Orthodox processional theology on the grounds that 2500 years
ago the people living on that dirt didn't believe in Jesus at all, and
thus are not qualified to critique the filioque.

*

"Paul Russell <prussell@sonic.net>" wrote: This is also the time of the year that the few remaining survivors of Hiroshima commemorate one of the worst ever crimes against humanity.

Sorry, can't agree with you here. It was a war. War is awful and
terrible and gets lots of innocents killed. The Japanese leadership
knew that when they launched Pearl Harbor, and they launched it anyway.

The Japanese leadership could have -- and should have -- surrendered
when the outcome became a foregone conclusion, to avert the expected
invasion of their islands. But they didn't, because they didn't care
about the huge casualties they would incur.

Even after Hiroshima and Nagasaki were destroyed, the military leaders
of Japan didn't want to surrender -- they were apparently prepared to
have their entire population incinerated, one city at a time. The
Emperor overrode them, agreeing to terms of surrender which would allow
the continuity of the imperial system in a democratic Japan. You may
say that Truman was awful, but so far as I can make out, the Japanese
military leaders cared for their citizens LESS than Truman did.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were horrible, no doubt about it. But for the US
soldiers preparing to invade the Japanese islands, those bombs were
lifesavers. Harry Truman, as US president, had an obligation to value
the lives of his soldiers more than the lives of Japanese civilians. So
he did what would keep the greatest number of his countrymen alive.

Yes, it's horrible. What about war isn't?


Darren Provine ! kilroy@elvis.rowan.edu ! http://www.rowan.edu/~kilroy
"[T]he war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan's
advantage[.]"
-- Emperor Hirohito,
radio broadcast announcing Japan's surrender,
15 August 1945

"Paul Russell" <prussell@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:hh9Tc.7356$54.112297@typhoon.sonic.net... Queenie wrote: Too bad the last generation of Greeks, the WWII generation, is dying out. They remembered that when the Nazis herded all the women and children in the outlying villages into the local church, burned it and machine-gunned anyone that came out, it was British and American commandos that armed the surviving men and taught them how to kill lots and lots of Nazis. This is also the time of the year that the few remaining survivors of Hiroshima commemorate one of the worst ever crimes against humanity.

I am always amazed at the general lack of historical knowledge in the world.
Japan was the unquestioned aggressor in WWII, having already invaded without
cause, in violation of international treaties it signed, and against the
League of Nations declarations, Korea, Manchuria, and China long before WWII
began in earnest.

Ever hear of the Rape of Nanking, China? It was extremely well documented
by nationals of many foreign nations present on the scene, chief among them
a German. The scope and breadth of Japanese atrocities against civilians was
staggering, including cutting open pregnant women and ripping out their
fetuses, raping and literally butchering little girls, bayoneting infants
and small children, mass slaughter and other brutalities you can't begin to
imagine. More Chinese died in Nanking than Japanese died in Hiroshima and
Nagasaki together. All this under official orders and with the knowledge
and approval of their Emperor. Yet the Japanese still deny these crimes.

Ever hear of Japan's Unit 731 and related units? They liked to perform
living vivisections, test hand grenades and conduct frostbite experiments on
Chinese civilians and POWs. They also did research on bubonic plague,
cholera, anthrax, typhoid, and tuberculosis, using live subjects, and they
developed huge bioweapons manufacturing facilities. They tried to use
biological weapons against the US in the pacific campaign beginning in May
of 1944, and were foiled only by their own poor planning, American
disruption, and the end of the war. Had we been forced to invade the
Japanese home islands, they intended to release these weapons, and their own
civilians be damned.

The Japanese leadership intended that the Japanese civilian population ALL
sacrifice their lives in futile resistance to the invasion forces. They
didn't spare any mercy for their own people, and an invasion would have cost
millions of Japanese civilian lives. So one fact is certain, Truman's
decision to drop the bomb and end the war saved untold numbers of Japanese
civilian lives, as against the intention of their own government.

Oh, and did you know that bombing cities at all was considered a war crime
after WWI, until guess who broke that taboo by terror bombing civilian
population centers in the mid-1930s? That's right. The Japanese. What
difference does it make to a civilian on the ground if he dies in a
thousand-plane conventional bombing raid, or suffers the same death in a
single plane atomic bombing raid? Either way, his death is the direct
result of his own government's action.

Every August, the Japanese survivors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki ought to
gather together to kiss the feet of a statue erected in honor of President
Truman, whose courageous decision unquestionably spared them and millions of
Japanese civilians from the death their own evil government had planned for
them.

Jeff

Paul Russell wrote: Queenie wrote: Too bad the last generation of Greeks, the WWII generation, is dying out. They remembered that when the Nazis herded all the women and children in the outlying villages into the local church, burned it and machine-gunned anyone that came out, it was British and American commandos that armed the surviving men and taught them how to kill lots and lots of Nazis. This is also the time of the year that the few remaining survivors of Hiroshima commemorate one of the worst ever crimes against humanity. The US has shown that it has no qualms about using WMD's against civilian populations in the past, and presumably will continue to do so in the future. The Iraqi people have lost one tinpot dictator with imaginary WMD's and gained a much bigger one with real WMD's. You must be very proud. Paul

As I wrote upthread: We did it before and we can do it again. Wanna be
next? Keep up your ****e.

It was no crime against humanity: It ended one. But I'm sure we could
eventually gather up the resolve to either end the rest of your pissant
threats -- or at least give the roaches and rats their evolutionary chance.

You all would be sure to survive in that event. You have the requisite
genes.

kyfunguy wrote: Then why do so many people wish to come live in the U.S....? I might have to put up with the bully on the playground... but I sure as hell wouldn't move in with him....

You are confusing the actions of the US government, i.e. its foreign
policy, with the country itself. Terrorists might argue that the US
population is responsible for the actions of its government, but in
reality the vast majority of the US poopualtion has no clue as to what
acts are being prepetrated abroad by Bush et al.

There are many good things about the US, but unfortuantely its behaviour
on the world stage is not one of them.

Paul

Jeff McCann wrote: "Paul Russell" <prussell@sonic.net> wrote in message news:hh9Tc.7356$54.112297@typhoon.sonic.net...Quee nie wrote:Too bad the last generation of Greeks, the WWII generation, is dyingout. They remembered that when the Nazis herded all the women andchildren in the outlying villages into the local church, burned it andmachine-gunned anyone that came out, it was British and Americancommandos that armed the surviving men and taught them how to killlots and lots of Nazis.This is also the time of the year that the few remaining survivors ofHiroshima commemorate one of the worst ever crimes against humanity. I am always amazed at the general lack of historical knowledge in the world. Japan was the unquestioned aggressor in WWII, having already invaded without cause, in violation of international treaties it signed, and against the League of Nations declarations, Korea, Manchuria, and China long before WWII began in earnest. Ever hear of the Rape of Nanking, China? It was extremely well documented by nationals of many foreign nations present on the scene, chief among them a German. The scope and breadth of Japanese atrocities against civilians was staggering, including cutting open pregnant women and ripping out their fetuses, raping and literally butchering little girls, bayoneting infants and small children, mass slaughter and other brutalities you can't begin to imagine. More Chinese died in Nanking than Japanese died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki together. All this under official orders and with the knowledge and approval of their Emperor. Yet the Japanese still deny these crimes. Ever hear of Japan's Unit 731 and related units? They liked to perform living vivisections, test hand grenades and conduct frostbite experiments on Chinese civilians and POWs. They also did research on bubonic plague, cholera, anthrax, typhoid, and tuberculosis, using live subjects, and they developed huge bioweapons manufacturing facilities. They tried to use biological weapons against the US in the pacific campaign beginning in May of 1944, and were foiled only by their own poor planning, American disruption, and the end of the war. Had we been forced to invade the Japanese home islands, they intended to release these weapons, and their own civilians be damned. The Japanese leadership intended that the Japanese civilian population ALL sacrifice their lives in futile resistance to the invasion forces. They didn't spare any mercy for their own people, and an invasion would have cost millions of Japanese civilian lives. So one fact is certain, Truman's decision to drop the bomb and end the war saved untold numbers of Japanese civilian lives, as against the intention of their own government. Oh, and did you know that bombing cities at all was considered a war crime after WWI, until guess who broke that taboo by terror bombing civilian population centers in the mid-1930s? That's right. The Japanese. What difference does it make to a civilian on the ground if he dies in a thousand-plane conventional bombing raid, or suffers the same death in a single plane atomic bombing raid? Either way, his death is the direct result of his own government's action. Every August, the Japanese survivors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki ought to gather together to kiss the feet of a statue erected in honor of President Truman, whose courageous decision unquestionably spared them and millions of Japanese civilians from the death their own evil government had planned for them. Jeff

Jeff,

It's probably futile to expect anyone born within the last 35 years to
have any idea about WW2 and its aftermath.

My father led a demolition patrol through Nagasaki. He's 80 next month
and still has nightmares of the war and of Nagasaki: He also says it was
a painful but necessary choice. To have been kind and spared the
Japanese the atomic bombs would have been unimaginably cruel. Their
leaders were prepared, even eager, to sacrifice the entire population on
the altar of bushido.

All that stopped it was two atomic bombs that showed them they could
indeed do so, but they wouldn't have won anyway.

There are such things as cruel kindness and kind cruelty: Those are not
oxymorons.

John Husvar wrote: As I wrote upthread: We did it before and we can do it again. Wanna be next? Keep up your ****e. It was no crime against humanity: It ended one. But I'm sure we could eventually gather up the resolve to either end the rest of your pissant threats -- or at least give the roaches and rats their evolutionary chance. You all would be sure to survive in that event. You have the requisite genes.

You should consider applying for a job as a diplomat with the current
administration.

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 18:04:54 GMT, Paul Russell <prussell@sonic.net>
wrote:
Empress wrote: The whole world looks up to the US; even now, even as pissed at us as the Greeks are, about Cyprus, about the Serbs, whatever. We're the world's greatest hope, even among the very poor and the hopelessly confused.Oh dear - I think it's you that's "hopelessly confused".The world looks on the US like kids look on the playground bully. Amean-spirited, greedy and humourless bully. Kids deal with bullies indifferent ways. Some kids will try to make friends with the bully as away to protect themselves and maybe even join in with the bullying andshare in the spoils. Most kids will just avoid the bully and hope thathe doesn't notice them and steal their lunch money. Either way, it's notrespect - it's just fear. But who knows, maybe one day some of the kidswill get together and kick the bully's *** ?Paul

bring your lunch, your friends lunch, the lunch of your friends
friends and a really good sunblocker..oh..hum...SFP 2,000,000 might
help.

The bully is waiting at your pleasure. Which will be fleeting, and
short lived.

Gunner

"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 20:13:01 GMT, Paul Russell <prussell@sonic.net>
wrote:
This is also the time of the year that the few remaining survivors ofHiroshima commemorate one of the worst ever crimes against humanity.

The Rape of Nanking? Good. Its about time the Japs finally got around
to admitting it.

Gunner

"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 21:40:33 +0000 (UTC), Dr Nancy's Sweetie
<kilroy@elvis.rowan.edu> wrote:
You come from a long line of butchers and murderers too, and so do I,and so does everybody else. Your past human ancestors (civilized andotherwise) were just as violent as everybody else's. Your ancestorshave also murdered their own citizens by the ton.

Actually.. not. Im Welsh, Finn, Native American and a touch of German.

German fron Lictenstien, not a nation known for genocide or or are any
of the above.

Shrug

Gunner

"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

John Husvar wrote: Jeff McCann wrote: "Paul Russell" <prussell@sonic.net> wrote in message news:hh9Tc.7356$54.112297@typhoon.sonic.net... Queenie wrote:> Too bad the last generation of Greeks, the WWII generation, is dying> out. They remembered that when the Nazis herded all the women and> children in the outlying villages into the local church, burned it and> machine-gunned anyone that came out, it was British and American> commandos that armed the surviving men and taught them how to kill> lots and lots of Nazis.> This is also the time of the year that the few remaining survivors of Hiroshima commemorate one of the worst ever crimes against humanity. I am always amazed at the general lack of historical knowledge in the world. Japan was the unquestioned aggressor in WWII, having already invaded without cause, in violation of international treaties it signed, and against the League of Nations declarations, Korea, Manchuria, and China long before WWII began in earnest. Ever hear of the Rape of Nanking, China? It was extremely well documented by nationals of many foreign nations present on the scene, chief among them a German. The scope and breadth of Japanese atrocities against civilians was staggering, including cutting open pregnant women and ripping out their fetuses, raping and literally butchering little girls, bayoneting infants and small children, mass slaughter and other brutalities you can't begin to imagine. More Chinese died in Nanking than Japanese died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki together. All this under official orders and with the knowledge and approval of their Emperor. Yet the Japanese still deny these crimes. Ever hear of Japan's Unit 731 and related units? They liked to perform living vivisections, test hand grenades and conduct frostbite experiments on Chinese civilians and POWs. They also did research on bubonic plague, cholera, anthrax, typhoid, and tuberculosis, using live subjects, and they developed huge bioweapons manufacturing facilities. They tried to use biological weapons against the US in the pacific campaign beginning in May of 1944, and were foiled only by their own poor planning, American disruption, and the end of the war. Had we been forced to invade the Japanese home islands, they intended to release these weapons, and their own civilians be damned. The Japanese leadership intended that the Japanese civilian population ALL sacrifice their lives in futile resistance to the invasion forces. They didn't spare any mercy for their own people, and an invasion would have cost millions of Japanese civilian lives. So one fact is certain, Truman's decision to drop the bomb and end the war saved untold numbers of Japanese civilian lives, as against the intention of their own government. Oh, and did you know that bombing cities at all was considered a war crime after WWI, until guess who broke that taboo by terror bombing civilian population centers in the mid-1930s? That's right. The Japanese. What difference does it make to a civilian on the ground if he dies in a thousand-plane conventional bombing raid, or suffers the same death in a single plane atomic bombing raid? Either way, his death is the direct result of his own government's action. Every August, the Japanese survivors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki ought to gather together to kiss the feet of a statue erected in honor of President Truman, whose courageous decision unquestionably spared them and millions of Japanese civilians from the death their own evil government had planned for them. Jeff Jeff, It's probably futile to expect anyone born within the last 35 years to have any idea about WW2 and its aftermath. My father led a demolition patrol through Nagasaki. He's 80 next month and still has nightmares of the war and of Nagasaki: He also says it was a painful but necessary choice. To have been kind and spared the Japanese the atomic bombs would have been unimaginably cruel. Their leaders were prepared, even eager, to sacrifice the entire population on the altar of bushido.
The same could have been said about the nazi too but the German race is
closer to " American " race.
All that stopped it was two atomic bombs that showed them they could indeed do so, but they wouldn't have won anyway. There are such things as cruel kindness and kind cruelty: Those are not oxymorons.

Paul Russell wrote: Queenie wrote: Too bad the last generation of Greeks, the WWII generation, is dying out. They remembered that when the Nazis herded all the women and children in the outlying villages into the local church, burned it and machine-gunned anyone that came out, it was British and American commandos that armed the surviving men and taught them how to kill lots and lots of Nazis. This is also the time of the year that the few remaining survivors of Hiroshima commemorate one of the worst ever crimes against humanity. The US has shown that it has no qualms about using WMD's against civilian populations in the past, and presumably will continue to do so in the future. The Iraqi people have lost one tinpot dictator with imaginary WMD's and gained a much bigger one with real WMD's. You must be very proud. Paul
Read the memoirs of former president Johnson.
He was thinking to use the atomic bomb against North Vietnam but until
then the anti Vietnam war movement was to strong.

Gunner wrote: On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:55:33 +0300, Xenos the elder <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:Gunner wrote:On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:46:18 +0300, Xenos the elder<dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:>>Seems you are indeed a looser.>>And you are a fascist.Odd..a Greek with the history of the recent civil war behind himaccusing a libertarian of being a fascist.For you the half million dead Iraqi children ( because of sanctions )was fun. So you are clearly a fascist. Actually No, not fun. Quite a tragedy. If sheer numbers of dead children are the basis of some political orientation, then based on historical data, by your criteria Id have to be Communist, as they murdered far far more people than did the fascists.
It depends who is doing the counting.
Who was killing the Red Indians?
Communists or capitalists?
Fascism is but one aspect of the bourgeoisie.
The British exterminated people from entire continents.
I don't think Britain was under the Communists then?
But then..you cant blame folks you agree with... Are you by any chance a dues payimg member of the KKE?
Sorry to disappoint you.
No I am in favor of radical democracy.
But what about you, are you on the payroll of any right-wing organization?
Chuckle Gunner "In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman Liebmann

Gunner wrote: On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 10:51:02 +0300, Xenos the elder <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:Gunner wrote:
It depends who is doing the counting. Nope. Dead is dead. 1+1 always = 2
So the dead must be counting the dead then, since only the dead can be
neutral.
During the Vietnam war there were 3 times more dead Vietcong announced
by the US military then were actually killed.

Gunner wrote: On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 21:40:33 +0000 (UTC), Dr Nancy's Sweetie <kilroy@elvis.rowan.edu> wrote:You come from a long line of butchers and murderers too, and so do I,and so does everybody else. Your past human ancestors (civilized andotherwise) were just as violent as everybody else's. Your ancestorshave also murdered their own citizens by the ton. Actually.. not. Im Welsh, Finn, Native American and a touch of German. German fron Lictenstien, not a nation known for genocide or or are any of the above.
What a lucky coincidence. You are certain nothing was manipulated?
It is always good to be partly Native American to.
Real or imagine it.
It must be a fashion among extreme right wing Americans to be " partly
Native American ".
Your are not the first right wing American who is " partly " Native
American ".
Do you own a buffalo skin or how?
Shrug Gunner "In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman Liebmann

Paul Russell wrote: John Husvar wrote: As I wrote upthread: We did it before and we can do it again. Wanna be next? Keep up your ****e. It was no crime against humanity: It ended one. But I'm sure we could eventually gather up the resolve to either end the rest of your pissant threats -- or at least give the roaches and rats their evolutionary chance. You all would be sure to survive in that event. You have the requisite genes. You should consider applying for a job as a diplomat with the current administration.

Thank you for the left-handed compliment, but why help people I can't
abide? Pusillanimous pissants all they are, Republicans and Democrats alike.

Had they any fortitude, the mushroom clouds would already be fading over
a landscape of woe, punctuated by a blessed silence of appeasers, where
once were nations of the same.

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 20:13:01 GMT, Paul Russell <prussell@sonic.net>
whipped out "The Mallet O' Understanding" and bashed *this* into my
head:
Queenie wrote: Too bad the last generation of Greeks, the WWII generation, is dying out. They remembered that when the Nazis herded all the women and children in the outlying villages into the local church, burned it and machine-gunned anyone that came out, it was British and American commandos that armed the surviving men and taught them how to kill lots and lots of Nazis.This is also the time of the year that the few remaining survivors ofHiroshima commemorate one of the worst ever crimes against humanity.

They deserved every single roentgen of it. They should thank their
heathen gods that, in our munificence, we decided to stop at *two*
cities. If we had been anything like their traditional enemies
beforehand, there would today *be* no "Japan".

__________________________________________________ _

"Black shirted boys in the badlands
play machine-gun rodeo;
the downtown mission's packed too tight,
with folks that got nowhere to go."

--- David Baerwald, "River's Gonna Rise", 1986

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 02:40:50 GMT, Gunner <gunnerNOSPAM@lightspeed.net>
whipped out "The Mallet O' Understanding" and bashed *this* into my
head:
On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 21:40:33 +0000 (UTC), Dr Nancy's Sweetie<kilroy@elvis.rowan.edu> wrote:You come from a long line of butchers and murderers too, and so do I,and so does everybody else. Your past human ancestors (civilized andotherwise) were just as violent as everybody else's. Your ancestorshave also murdered their own citizens by the ton.Actually.. not. Im Welsh, Finn, Native American

....*which* Native American?

If you're Sioux, get in touch with the Crow nation, ask them how they
feel about your respective past histories, and then get back to us,
do.

__________________________________________________ _

"Black shirted boys in the badlands
play machine-gun rodeo;
the downtown mission's packed too tight,
with folks that got nowhere to go."

--- David Baerwald, "River's Gonna Rise", 1986

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 10:26:58 GMT, John Husvar <jhusvar@neo.rr.com>
whipped out "The Mallet O' Understanding" and bashed *this* into my
head:
Had they any fortitude, the mushroom clouds would already be fading overa landscape of woe, punctuated by a blessed silence of appeasers, whereonce were nations of the same.

Hrm, dont' know if you lifted that or paraphrased it from elsewhere,
but; nice quote.

__________________________________________________ _

"Black shirted boys in the badlands
play machine-gun rodeo;
the downtown mission's packed too tight,
with folks that got nowhere to go."

--- David Baerwald, "River's Gonna Rise", 1986

John Mann wrote: On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 10:26:58 GMT, John Husvar <jhusvar@neo.rr.com> whipped out "The Mallet O' Understanding" and bashed *this* into my head:Had they any fortitude, the mushroom clouds would already be fading overa landscape of woe, punctuated by a blessed silence of appeasers, whereonce were nations of the same.

And the virtues of citification would be forgotten as would be its
benefits. The immediate, honest, brutal directness of the barbarian and
heathen again would rule the land.
Hrm, dont' know if you lifted that or paraphrased it from elsewhere, but; nice quote.

Mine, all mine!
Use it at your own discretion -- and peril. :)

John Mann wrote: On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 20:13:01 GMT, Paul Russell <prussell@sonic.net> whipped out "The Mallet O' Understanding" and bashed *this* into my head:Queenie wrote:Too bad the last generation of Greeks, the WWII generation, is dyingout. They remembered that when the Nazis herded all the women andchildren in the outlying villages into the local church, burned it andmachine-gunned anyone that came out, it was British and Americancommandos that armed the surviving men and taught them how to killlots and lots of Nazis.This is also the time of the year that the few remaining survivors ofHiroshima commemorate one of the worst ever crimes against humanity. They deserved every single roentgen of it. They should thank their heathen gods that, in our munificence, we decided to stop at *two* cities. If we had been anything like their traditional enemies beforehand, there would today *be* no "Japan".
History did not start with the USA and will not end with the USA.
Having to many enemies could some day prove fatal.
__________________________________________________ _ "Black shirted boys in the badlands play machine-gun rodeo; the downtown mission's packed too tight, with folks that got nowhere to go." --- David Baerwald, "River's Gonna Rise", 1986

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 21:41:42 +0300, Xenos the elder
<dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> whipped out "The Mallet O' Understanding"
and bashed *this* into my head:
History did not start with the USA and will not end with the USA.Having to many enemies could some day prove fatal.

I'm sure we will excercise utmost vigilance against the awesome armed
might of Greece. I'm not all that worried about the future.

__________________________________________________ _

"Black shirted boys in the badlands
play machine-gun rodeo;
the downtown mission's packed too tight,
with folks that got nowhere to go."

--- David Baerwald, "River's Gonna Rise", 1986

On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 03:14:20 GMT, Gunner <gunner@lightspeed.net>
wrote:
On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 21:28:20 +0300, Xenos the elder<dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:We never had any witch burning's in Greece.Tell that to Aristotle and others.

Maybe you're thinking of Socrates?

~Empress

"Not life, but good life, is to be chiefly valued."
~ Socrates

Cyprus Govt. Admits CIA Campaign Against Indymedia
by Cyprus Indymedia
(No verified email address)
12 Aug 2004
The scandal is unfolding in gigantic proportions... and we can hardly
keep up with the developments. Responding to a publicity and solidarity
campaign by Indymedia, the Government of the Republic of Cyprus has been
forced to admit that they were acting under orders from the US Government to
carry out an intelligence investigation of Cyprus Indymedia and of one of
its founding members, Petros Evdokas, in order to assess whether he
"constitutes a threat to US interests." Police had interrogated the family
of Petros Evdokas a few weeks ago and, during the affair, inadvertently
blurted out that the source of this investigation was a directive by the
CIA. After a series of denials and cover-ups (chronicled below) the Police
Headquarters issued an official statement on Friday admitting to everything
that Indymedia had accused them of, namely that directives of the CIA and
the US Embassy have priority over their own mission which, believe it or
not, is to protect the tiny and independent Republic from foreign
intervention. This campaigns to intimidate IndyMedia is part of a global
trend, including the nation- wide "pre- emptive" raids and interrogations by
the FBI of radicals in Boston and across the US in order to thwart
preparations to protest at the two Republocrat party conventions.


After a series of Government lies and denials about the case
collapsed, Members of the Parliament, the ruling Party, and member Parties
of the ruling coalition were drawn into the public dialogue and shamed into
taking a position on the issue. The Union of Editors - the most influential
institution of establishment journalism - issued a rare and scathing
critique of the way the affair is being handled demanding an investigation
and response from the Government.

And now the Minister of Justice and Public Order has been shamed into
issuing a written statement admitting to the facts, including a directive to
the Police in polite words which are equivalent to "get back on the leash",
instructing them how to handle issues revolving around the right to free
expression.

Police had interrogated the family of Petros Evdokas a few weeks ago
and, during the affair, inadvertently blurted out that the source of this
investigation was a directive by the CIA. After a series of denials and
cover-ups (chronicled below) the Police Headquarters issued an official
statement on Friday admitting to everything that Indymedia had accused them
of, namely that directives of the CIA and the US Embassy have priority over
their own mission which, believe it or not, is to protect the tiny and
independent Republic from foreign intervention.

Cyprus IndyMedia, with the help of supporters and friends in the
BiCommunal Peace networks, the alternative and radical community, and with
global allies abroad, initiated a campaign for solidarity, for legal
defense, and to publicize the case with all of its "curious" twists and
turns.

Throughout this last week there was increasing interest from
newspapers on the island which began to publish small news items presenting
our case. By mid- week it was front page news with giant headlines in one
newspaper. On Friday, Cyprus IndyMedia and the Evdokas family held a joint
Press Conference, which was attended by about half of the establishment
media, and IndyMedia's own reporters of course. Friends and allies attended
as well, to express support.

On Friday night the case was on the major news reports of two
television stations. One of those two stations is the biggest in the country
in terms of audience numbers and political power - it belongs to the State!
During that news show, statements were made by a representative of the
Police Headquarters admitting that the investigation is real and proceeded
to uncover some of its details.

By Saturday morning, our case is a front- page item in much of the
establishment Press.

Under the headline "CIA orders investigation", they publish
statements
by the Assistant Chief of Police admitting that there is an intelligence and
"assessment" investigation (without mentioning that the Police had been
denying it all week, when reporters called them up - more on that below).

On Sunday morning newspaper articles reveal that the major political
parties have been drawn into the fray, with Members of Parliament
castigating the Police for this unacceptable behaviour. Even the vice- chair
of the ruling party has been embarassed into criticizing the subservience of
the Police to the US intelligence agencies.

By Monday, the scandal had reached the highest echelons of
Government,
with the Minister of Justice and Public Order being forced by the public
outcry to apologise, essentially, for the behaviour of his Police and for
their collusion with a foreign power to serve political intrigues.

* What the police said

When the story began to break into the mainstream media in mid July,
the office of the Chief of Police stated to the newspaper "Phileleftheros"
that they had "never heard of this investigation", and they even directed
the journalists to "inform the Police" if they find out who is doing it.

A week later, in response to questions by reporters of the newspaper
"Mahi", the official Police Spokesperson Dimitris Dimitriou stated that the
Police has "nothing whatsoever to do with this case" and that "the Police
receives orders from no one".

Two days ago, the Police Headquarters admitted everything in an
official statement issued for the media and also broadcasted on the
government tv station's main news program. In fact, the Police stated that
this investigation has been active since March, right after IndyMedia in
Cyprus published an "offending" article by Petros Evdokas which exposed and
documented US intelligence operations interfering with the recent Peace
referendum on the island, and the efforts by the US Government to impose an
Apartheid- style regime on the island as a "final solution" to the regional
conflict, which of course would be a sure- fire guarantee for eternal war in
the Eastern Mediterranean.

* What the US Embassy said

In mid July, journalists of "The Cyprus Mail" questioned the Press
Officer of the US Embassy in Cyprus about the investigation against
IndyMedia. The Officer declared "unavailable for comment".

When the story began to break into front- page news in the third week
of July, the US Embassy Press Office told reporters of the newspaper "Mahi"
that they "know nothing about the case", while representatives of the
Embassy stated that they "have never heard of Petros Evdokas", and that they
"do not concern themselves with whatever anyone writes".

And now, the official Police statement just out two days ago, states
in full glory that they had received a written document from the US Embassy
in March - "a complaint" - urging them to investigate whether Petros Evdokas
and his writings "constitute a threat to US interests".

These actions constitute a clear pattern of lies, denial, cover- up
and cowardice, not only by the US Embassy and its associated intelligence
agencies, but also by the magnificent authorities in Cyprus, through their
willing collusion with this criminal investigation and illegal harassment
operation against IndyMedia and against a family who are totally innocent
victims of this operation. The tragedy and the comedy of it all begins with
the high degree of intervention by the US Government in another country's
affairs to such a minute detail, which is mind- bending. And at the same
time, it's so-o-o- punctuated by an abundance of Inspector Clouseau's (Pink
Panther)-style of bungling Police operations - we find these in most Banana
Republics around the world, including all of the hot spots of the Middle
East where the leaders of the US Government are trying their best to start
World War Four in order to bring about a perverted fantasy of christian
Rapture. We are going to pursue this issue further, with whatever it takes.

* The global context

IndyMedia faces challenges on a daily basis on a global scale. We are
the unofficial organ of expression of a the whole planet- wide mobilization
to resist the Empire - it's understandable that the Opposition will do
anything to destroy a voice which is an organizing tool against the
globalized domination of the earth by corporations and authoritarian states.

The campaigns to intimidate IndyMedia are not yet co-ordinated on a
global scale, but we're slowly moving in that direction. The assasination of
IndyMedia founding member Lenin Cali Najera of Equador just recently
(comrades there are speculating that a death squad made his assasination
appear as attempted robbery); the current trials in Italy springing from the
concerted attack by paramilitary police against the IndyMedia facilities in
2001; the use of armoured vehicles to intimidate the IndyMedia workspace in
Georgia USA just last month; and now the nation- wide "pre- emptive" raids
and interrogations by the FBI of radicals in Boston and across the US in
order to thwart preparations to protest at the two Republocrat party
conventions, are pointing the way to a new phase of struggle for free and
radical media activists. It is in this context that we are experiencing the
intelligence investigation against Cyprus IndyMedia. The local/ regional
politics are important, of course, everywhere, but the liberation Movement
is now truly global, and repression is shaping up to adjust.

We seek to live in a world some day in which people are entirely free
from corporate and state intervention in our lives, a world without borders,
in which all of natural and social resources are owned collectively by the
community and administered by the people for the people in free associations
and peoples' councils operating on the basis of consensus, direct democracy,
and face- to- face accountability. Is it too much to ask for? Perhaps. But
it makes our struggles worthwhile. And the vision of global Peace and
Justice, helps us endure many of the abuses by the machinery of state-
sponsored terrorism.

If your embrace this cause, if this Movement is yours too, please
help
us.

With much gratitude to all of you who have been mobilized or touched
by our campaign, who were inspired to help us out in one way or another -
please continue your support, and be assured we will continue.

* How to help - things you can do

Many people have been writing or calling and asking how to help.
Alerted by a global IndyMedia article about the case a few days ago, and
also by the revelations on television and the press, even people with whom
we might disagree on other items, have been outraged by this effort to
silence and intimidate IndyMedia in Cyprus, particularly disturbed by the
interrogation of one of our members' parents.

We are so very grateful for the outpouring of support and
solidarity... your concern gives all of us strength, and helps us cultivate
and maintain our morale.

The government intimidation of IndyMedia Cyprus and of Petros Evdokas
by command of the US intelligence services, has been a pressing issue and
rallying point for us in the last few weeks. We are so moved to receive your
messages of support and to know that you are sharing our news with others in
the struggle.

For now, the best form of help is to just publicize the facts of the
case, our Collective's statements on it, and above all, to publicize *your
own* opinions about it as individuals and organizations who are concerned
about freedom of expression, and as allies in the global liberation movement
united against imperialist intervention.

If you like (if it's safe for you, or for your organization), please
send a letter or a statement to the Embassy of Cyprus in your country, or to
the Embassy of the US (or both), asking them to stop this investigation and
to stop intimidating the Evdokas family or anyone who is related to
IndyMedia, and to respect the fundamental right to freedom of speech. Please
ask them, above all, to honour a policy of *non-intervention* in the affairs
of our tiny island's war- torn communities which simply want to live united
in Peace.

We are also asking specifically of progressive radical organizations
which are based within the United States to do the same, with statements to
the media, to the US Department of State, and to the Embassy of Cyprus. Do
you want this interference and intimidation by the US Government to be
happening in your name? Even the shortest letter, even the smallest
statement can make a huge difference. The people of our island need to be
protected from constant interventions by the US and UK Governments and by
their local puppets in Cyprus, Greece, and Turkey, which are aimed to
artificially instigate our ethnic communities towards racial war and
butchery against each other, just to serve the interests of the global
Empire.

See also:
http://cyprusindymedia.org/

John Mann wrote: On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 21:41:42 +0300, Xenos the elder <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> whipped out "The Mallet O' Understanding" and bashed *this* into my head:History did not start with the USA and will not end with the USA.Having to many enemies could some day prove fatal.
I was not thinking about Greece actually.
One day the American people could wake up to the realities of their
country and " take care " of the top 1%.
I'm sure we will excercise utmost vigilance against the awesome armed might of Greece. I'm not all that worried about the future. __________________________________________________ _ "Black shirted boys in the badlands play machine-gun rodeo; the downtown mission's packed too tight, with folks that got nowhere to go." --- David Baerwald, "River's Gonna Rise", 1986

On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 08:13:12 +0300, Xenos the elder
<dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote:
http://cyprusindymedia.org/

You leftists are so dramatic.

~Empress O.

http://www.cyprusweekly.com.cy/default.aspx?articleID=8733&heading=

Justice Minister Doros Theodorou this week confirmed that the Republic
had responded to a US Embassy request for police inquiries to
ascertain whether the life of an American citizen had been threatened
following an article published over the Internet about his activities
on the island.
[...]
“The police, nevertheless, being more sensitive to the likelihood of a
threat against the safety of a foreign national in our country, deemed
it proper to respond to the request by the foreign embassy to
ascertain whether there was any threat against the life of Mr Ernyeye
or of any other national of that country,” Theodorou said and added:
“Having carried out an investigation, it has come to the conclusion
that no such threat has existed and the case has been classified as
not belonging to the police.”

~Empress wrote: On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 08:13:12 +0300, Xenos the elder <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote: http://cyprusindymedia.org/ You leftists are so dramatic. ~Empress O. http://www.cyprusweekly.com.cy/default.aspx?articleID=8733&heading= Justice Minister Doros Theodorou this week confirmed that the Republic had responded to a US Embassy request
Who is dramatic here? for police inquiries to ascertain whether the life of an American citizen had been threatened following an article published over the Internet about his activities on the island. [...] “The police, nevertheless, being more sensitive to the likelihood of a threat against the safety of a foreign national in our country, deemed it proper to respond to the request by the foreign embassy to ascertain whether there was any threat against the life of Mr Ernyeye or of any other national of that country,” Theodorou said and added: “Having carried out an investigation, it has come to the conclusion that no such threat has existed and the case has been classified as not belonging to the police.”

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 22:36:51 -0500, Casey <cclremovethispart@cox.net>
wrote:
Fido said... Xenos the elder <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote in news:411A80B1.8070404@yahoo.com: Self-defence in your house, 5000 miles away from the US and I kill you in your own best interest. And your family too because I am in a good mood today. If you do, you should buy your ammo at Wal-Mart - it's on sale! I got a case of 250 shells for my 12 gauge for $30.00! 100 rounds of 45 cal for only $20! Wow! I thought there was an ammo shortage!That 100 round 'white box' 45 ammo is about the best deal around...we've gone through a few boxes lately. 100 rounds of 9mm is only about$11 at Wal-Mart if I remember correctly.Casey

I've always found it interesting that Wal-Mart will sell guns and ammo
but not things that show people making love. Does anybody else find
that a little strange?

Jeff

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:02:08 GMT, Gunner <gunnerNOSPAM@lightspeed.net>
wrote:
A hint for you Odepus...the US has AlWAYS been a heavily armedcountry. In fact, at this point in time, there are more firearms inprivate hands than ever before...and our crime rate has been fallingsteadily for a number of years. More guns=less crime.
Actually the reason the crime rate was going down was because the
economy was getting better and the people on the lower levels of
economic scale (the poor) started to see a better life for themselves.
Now that the economy had been in doldrums for the past few years the
crime rate has started to go back up.

I know that for every time it is reported that somebody uses a gun for
self defense I can show you probably 100 where a gun was used to
commit a crime. The numbers just do not support the statement that
'more guns=less crime.'

Jeff

JSS said... Gunner <gunnerNOSPAM@lightspeed.net> I know that for every time it is reported that somebody uses a gun for self defense I can show you probably 100 where a gun was used to commit a crime.

Okay, if you *know* that, then go ahead and show it. Quote some
reputable sources with verifiable numbers... not some inflated "facts"
that someone with an agenda "thinks" is true.

Besides that, most cases of self defense are not reported - especially
where a self-defense weapon was used to intimidate a would-be assailant
without being fired in the process.



Casey

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:55:42 -0400, JSS <onlyjunkmail@email.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:02:08 GMT, Gunner <gunnerNOSPAM@lightspeed.net>wrote:A hint for you Odepus...the US has AlWAYS been a heavily armedcountry. In fact, at this point in time, there are more firearms inprivate hands than ever before...and our crime rate has been fallingsteadily for a number of years. More guns=less crime.Actually the reason the crime rate was going down was because theeconomy was getting better and the people on the lower levels ofeconomic scale (the poor) started to see a better life for themselves.Now that the economy had been in doldrums for the past few years thecrime rate has started to go back up.

The Department of Justice figures along with the FBIs Unified Crime
Report disagree with you.
I know that for every time it is reported that somebody uses a gun forself defense I can show you probably 100 where a gun was used tocommit a crime. The numbers just do not support the statement that'more guns=less crime.'Jeff

Even the government estimates that there are somewhere around 1.5
million defensive gun uses every year. So if we use your 100 x
multiplier....it shows you are simply an idiot.

Gunner

"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

"Lik Mi Sak" <blubbering123@juno.com> wrote in message news:<411a7134$0$2380$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>... "Xenos the elder" <dimitrioxeno@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:411A6E90.1080702@yahoo.com... Lik Mi Sak wrote: "Ignoramus5937" <ignoramus5937@NOSPAM.5937.invalid> wrote in message news:cfdjut$ug0$0@pita.alt.net...>``... the United States has not in fact brought freedom to Iraq. It has>brought instead death, destruction and now near-chaos. ... AWESOME, we kicked ***, this mofo's deserved it, after sponsoring terrorism for the past 20 years. Ignorante you are just jealous that you ruskis got you rear and beat:) Didn't Saddam use the atomic bomb on 2 Japanese cities? And Iraqi airplanes were bombing Nicaragua. oh I see you implying that we in the US are the terrorist, I wonder were some of the european countries would be right now without uncle Sam. I am not going to waste my time with you asswipe

But you wasted everyone else's time with your sub-mental post, didn't you?

Holly

"Lik Mi Sak" <blubbering123@juno.com> wrote in message news:<411a67dd$0$2438$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com>... "Ignoramus5937" <ignoramus5937@NOSPAM.5937.invalid> wrote in message news:cfdjut$ug0$0@pita.alt.net... ``... the United States has not in fact brought freedom to Iraq. It has brought instead death, destruction and now near-chaos. ... AWESOME, we kicked ***, this mofo's deserved it, after sponsoring terrorism for the past 20 years. Ignorante you are just jealous that you ruskis got you rear and beat:)

"We" kick ***? Is your fat lazy *** over there getting shot at? I think not!

Holly

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 16:18:06 GMT, Gunner <gunnerNOSPAM@lightspeed.net>
wrote:
On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:55:42 -0400, JSS <onlyjunkmail@email.com>wrote:On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:02:08 GMT, Gunner <gunnerNOSPAM@lightspeed.net>wrote:A hint for you Odepus...the US has AlWAYS been a heavily armedcountry. In fact, at this point in time, there are more firearms inprivate hands than ever before...and our crime rate has been fallingsteadily for a number of years. More guns=less crime.Actually the reason the crime rate was going down was because theeconomy was getting better and the people on the lower levels ofeconomic scale (the poor) started to see a better life for themselves.Now that the economy had been in doldrums for the past few years thecrime rate has started to go back up.The Department of Justice figures along with the FBIs Unified CrimeReport disagree with you.
I'll have to look into that.
I know that for every time it is reported that somebody uses a gun forself defense I can show you probably 100 where a gun was used tocommit a crime. The numbers just do not support the statement that'more guns=less crime.'JeffEven the government estimates that there are somewhere around 1.5million defensive gun uses every year. So if we use your 100 xmultiplier....it shows you are simply an idiot.
How is the government estimating that? How do you estimate something
that didn't happen?

Is there any reason that you had to resort to name calling?
Gunner "In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush bythe Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye pluckedout by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - NormanLiebmann
Lucky for you that those Democrats got the ban on hunting eagles so
there are some left otherwise we would only have the ducks nibbling on
us.

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:01:02 -0400, JSS <onlyjunkmail@email.com>
wrote:
Lucky for you that those Democrats got the ban on hunting eagles sothere are some left otherwise we would only have the ducks nibbling onus.

I like roasted duck. Never tried eagle though.

"We" kick ***? Is your fat lazy *** over there getting shot at? I think
not! Holly

as matter of fact dear douche bag sir/madam I got back 6 months ago, and yes
like it or not "WE"
blow them away, now please go back in your liberal **** hole and die
puto/puta
thank you

"Lik Mi Sak" <blubbering123@juno.com> wrote in message
news:41225e42$0$2454$9a6e19ea@news.newshosting.com ... "We" kick ***? Is your fat lazy *** over there getting shot at? I think not! Holly as matter of fact dear douche bag sir/madam I got back 6 months ago, and
yes like it or not "WE" blow them away, now please go back in your liberal **** hole and die puto/puta thank you

Hey, weren't you one of those girls I saw parading around the naked Iraqi
prisoners. I guess you really meant you "kicked ***" and that you "blew
them away."

Pathetic.

Rambler

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:40:56 -0400, "Lik Mi Sak"
<blubbering123@juno.com> wrote:
"We" kick ***? Is your fat lazy *** over there getting shot at? I thinknot! Hollyas matter of fact dear douche bag sir/madam I got back 6 months ago, and yeslike it or not "WE"blow them away, now please go back in your liberal **** hole and dieputo/putathank you
Point, set and match.

Chuckle

Gunner

"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:01:02 -0400, JSS <onlyjunkmail@email.com>
wrote:
On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 16:18:06 GMT, Gunner <gunnerNOSPAM@lightspeed.net>wrote:On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 10:55:42 -0400, JSS <onlyjunkmail@email.com>wrote:On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:02:08 GMT, Gunner <gunnerNOSPAM@lightspeed.net>wrote:>A hint for you Odepus...the US has AlWAYS been a heavily armed>country. In fact, at this point in time, there are more firearms in>private hands than ever before...and our crime rate has been falling>steadily for a number of years. More guns=less crime.>Actually the reason the crime rate was going down was because theeconomy was getting better and the people on the lower levels ofeconomic scale (the poor) started to see a better life for themselves.Now that the economy had been in doldrums for the past few years thecrime rate has started to go back up.The Department of Justice figures along with the FBIs Unified CrimeReport disagree with you.I'll have to look into that.
I looked but mostly waited and the DOJ released the numbers. Violent
crime had decreased from 92 until the present. There were a very large
decrease from 92 until 2000 ( The years of the Clinton presidency) and
is down 3.1% since 1999.

On the down side the Murder rate has increased 1.7% since 2002. It
also reports that more then two thirds of last year murders were
committed by firearms.

I haven't been able to look at the whole report but I did find
information backing up my arguments.

In CIUS 2003 sec. 2, Table 2.9 the #'s of murders by firearms went
from 8,480 in 99 to 9,638 in 2003. Also in Table 2.16 the # of
justifiable homicides by firearms went from 158 in 99 to 203 in 2003.

I did not see any references to the # of crimes prevented because the
possible victims had a firearm on him. Again I haven't read the whole
report.

So you are correct that the crime rate has not gone up except for
murders the decline has slowed a great deal under Pres. Bush.

You will also see that on Offense Tabulations, Table 1 the crime rate
is down 33.4% between 94 and 2003 but only 9.2% between 99 and 2003.
Looking just at the # or crimes it down 25.6% from 94 to 2003 but only
3.1% of it happened between 99 and 2003.I know that for every time it is reported that somebody uses a gun forself defense I can show you probably 100 where a gun was used tocommit a crime. The numbers just do not support the statement that'more guns=less crime.'JeffEven the government estimates that there are somewhere around 1.5million defensive gun uses every year. So if we use your 100 xmultiplier....it shows you are simply an idiot.How is the government estimating that? How do you estimate somethingthat didn't happen?Is there any reason that you had to resort to name calling?Gunner "In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush bythe Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye pluckedout by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - NormanLiebmannLucky for you that those Democrats got the ban on hunting eagles sothere are some left otherwise we would only have the ducks nibbling onus.

On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 00:07:36 -0400, JSS <onlyjunkmail@email.com>
wrote:
You will also see that on Offense Tabulations, Table 1 the crime rateis down 33.4% between 94 and 2003 but only 9.2% between 99 and 2003.Looking just at the # or crimes it down 25.6% from 94 to 2003 but only3.1% of it happened between 99 and 2003.

You will note of course that the US suffered a very bad recession
during those years, and when the economy is bad, crime tends to rise,
hence the slowing of the rate of decline. Also, no matter what, there
will ALWAYS be crime and homicides. Its a baseline that is pretty well
defined and as one approches that baseline, rates of decline will
slow, stop and then hold steady.

If you will also look at the racial break down in the murder rates,
you will find that Hispanics are the largest single rising racial
group committing murders. This of course due to the influx of new
immigrants and often fighting with the current drug dealers for turf.

While Im not in the slightest prejudiced visa vis race (and others
will back this up), its VERY interesting when you look at the ages and
races of both perps and victims of murder and violent crimes.

You might also look at the data filtered though the states that have
CCW Shall Issue, and compare them against states that have strict gun
control laws, on a per 100,000 basis.

Just some food for thought.

Gunner

"By calling attention to 'a well regulated militia', the 'security' of the nation, and the right of each citizen 'to keep and bear arms', our founding fathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of our economy. Although it is extremely unlikely that the fears of governmental tyranny which gave rise to the Second Amendment will ever be a major danger to our nation, the Amendment still remains an important declaration of our basic civilian-military relationships, in which every citizen must be ready to participate in the defense of his country. For that reason, I believe the Second Amendment will always be important."
-- Senator John F. Kennedy, (D) 1960

On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 00:07:36 -0400, JSS <onlyjunkmail@email.com>
wrote:
I did not see any references to the # of crimes prevented because thepossible victims had a firearm on him. Again I haven't read the wholereport.

Try this link

http://www.ncjrs.org/txtfiles/165476.txt

For further data, check this link and follow the footnotes at the
bottom.

http://www.gunowners.org/fs0101.htm

Gunner

"By calling attention to 'a well regulated militia', the 'security' of the nation, and the right of each citizen 'to keep and bear arms', our founding fathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of our economy. Although it is extremely unlikely that the fears of governmental tyranny which gave rise to the Second Amendment will ever be a major danger to our nation, the Amendment still remains an important declaration of our basic civilian-military relationships, in which every citizen must be ready to participate in the defense of his country. For that reason, I believe the Second Amendment will always be important."
-- Senator John F. Kennedy, (D) 1960

On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 08:06:43 GMT, Gunner <gunner@lightspeed.net>
wrote:
On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 00:07:36 -0400, JSS <onlyjunkmail@email.com>wrote:I did not see any references to the # of crimes prevented because thepossible victims had a firearm on him. Again I haven't read the wholereport.Try this linkhttp://www.ncjrs.org/txtfiles/165476.txt
Taking a quick look at the link I did notice the following statement:

o Evidence suggests that this survey and others
like it overestimate the frequency with which
firearms were used by private citizens to defend
against criminal attack.

Another statement indicates gun ownership is highest in rural and
small-town America. Not the places that you think of when you talk of
high crime rates.

I see where 32% of surveyed felons (sounds like Family Feud) had
stolen their guns. That is an average of 500,000 a year.
For further data, check this link and follow the footnotes at thebottom.http://www.gunowners.org/fs0101.htmGunner"By calling attention to 'a well regulated militia', the 'security' of the nation, and the right of each citizen 'to keep and bear arms', our founding fathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of our economy. Although it is extremely unlikely that the fears of governmental tyranny which gave rise to the Second Amendment will ever be a major danger to our nation, the Amendment still remains an important declaration of our basic civilian-military relationships, in which every citizen must be ready to participate in the defense of his country. For that reason, I believe the Second Amendment will always be important." -- Senator John F. Kennedy, (D) 1960

Interesting statement, The 2dn amendment is important not because of
the threat from our government but to defend our country from others.
It seems like he is saying that it is important that people have
access to guns for the purpose of joining the military to defend the
country.

On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:52:28 -0400, JSS <onlyjunkmail@email.com>
wrote:
On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 08:06:43 GMT, Gunner <gunner@lightspeed.net>wrote:On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 00:07:36 -0400, JSS <onlyjunkmail@email.com>wrote:I did not see any references to the # of crimes prevented because thepossible victims had a firearm on him. Again I haven't read the wholereport.Try this linkhttp://www.ncjrs.org/txtfiles/165476.txtTaking a quick look at the link I did notice the following statement:o Evidence suggests that this survey and otherslike it overestimate the frequency with whichfirearms were used by private citizens to defendagainst criminal attack.

Yes. And? Other surveys/studies have backed up or exceeded the DOJ
estimates of at least 800,000-1.5 million DGUs per year.Another statement indicates gun ownership is highest in rural andsmall-town America. Not the places that you think of when you talk ofhigh crime rates.
So?I see where 32% of surveyed felons (sounds like Family Feud) hadstolen their guns. That is an average of 500,000 a year.
They most often steal the same guns from each other. Ask any cop or
dope dealer.
For further data, check this link and follow the footnotes at thebottom.http://www.gunowners.org/fs0101.htm

Still working on the footnotes?

Gunner

Gunner"By calling attention to 'a well regulated militia', the 'security' of the nation, and the right of each citizen 'to keep and bear arms', our founding fathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of our economy. Although it is extremely unlikely that the fears of governmental tyranny which gave rise to the Second Amendment will ever be a major danger to our nation, the Amendment still remains an important declaration of our basic civilian-military relationships, in which every citizen must be ready to participate in the defense of his country. For that reason, I believe the Second Amendment will always be important." -- Senator John F. Kennedy, (D) 1960Interesting statement, The 2dn amendment is important not because ofthe threat from our government but to defend our country from others.It seems like he is saying that it is important that people haveaccess to guns for the purpose of joining the military to defend thecountry.

"By calling attention to 'a well regulated militia', the 'security' of the nation, and the right of each citizen 'to keep and bear arms', our founding fathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of our economy. Although it is extremely unlikely that the fears of governmental tyranny which gave rise to the Second Amendment will ever be a major danger to our nation, the Amendment still remains an important declaration of our basic civilian-military relationships, in which every citizen must be ready to participate in the defense of his country. For that reason, I believe the Second Amendment will always be important."
-- Senator John F. Kennedy, (D) 1960

"JSS" <onlyjunkmail@email.com> wrote in message
Another statement indicates gun ownership is highest in rural and small-town America. Not the places that you think of when you talk of high crime rates.

First; all those guns around and a low crime rate? Gee, wonder why not?
Don't guns cause crime?

Second; People living in isolated farm houses, no one around to see what's
going on, junk stacked up where a burglar can sneak up on whoever is there,
no one around to come to the victims assistance, money laying around because
they can't get to the bank, loads of time to go through what's there and see
what's worth hauling off, lots of time to load stereos and **** in the car,
and lot of time to find the keys to the cars and trucks parked there ...

Gee, sounds like someone living out like that should be an easy target for
some "smart" dude deprived of the money he needs for his fix, right?

I wonder why people living out in the country have less crime to worry
about?

On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 16:41:37 -0700, "Phillep"
<pharding_333@hotmail.com> wrote:
"JSS" <onlyjunkmail@email.com> wrote in message Another statement indicates gun ownership is highest in rural and small-town America. Not the places that you think of when you talk of high crime rates.First; all those guns around and a low crime rate? Gee, wonder why not?Don't guns cause crime?

I never said that guns cause crime, a gun is an inanimate object just
like a car or a knife. What guns does is assist somebody that wants to
commit a crime. The same reason that most people would not go into a
dangerous situation without some sort of protection or a weapon.

What I am saying is that a person who is thinking of committing a
crime will more likely commit one if he/she has a gun or other weapon.
They are also more likely to shoot first if the believe that the
person they are committing the crime against would be in a position to
cause them harm.
Second; People living in isolated farm houses, no one around to see what'sgoing on, junk stacked up where a burglar can sneak up on whoever is there,no one around to come to the victims assistance, money laying around becausethey can't get to the bank, loads of time to go through what's there and seewhat's worth hauling off, lots of time to load stereos and **** in the car,and lot of time to find the keys to the cars and trucks parked there ...Gee, sounds like someone living out like that should be an easy target forsome "smart" dude deprived of the money he needs for his fix, right?

But it is not according to the stats. rural errors are some of the
safest places to live because of the isolation. The same way that if
you are looking for a job you don't look in isolated areas but in
places where there are more people, businesses and opportunities.
I wonder why people living out in the country have less crime to worryabout?

On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 20:31:44 GMT, Gunner <gunner@lightspeed.net>
wrote:
On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:52:28 -0400, JSS <onlyjunkmail@email.com>wrote:On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 08:06:43 GMT, Gunner <gunner@lightspeed.net>wrote:On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 00:07:36 -0400, JSS <onlyjunkmail@email.com>wrote:>I did not see any references to the # of crimes prevented because the>possible victims had a firearm on him. Again I haven't read the whole>report.Try this linkhttp://www.ncjrs.org/txtfiles/165476.txtTaking a quick look at the link I did notice the following statement:o Evidence suggests that this survey and otherslike it overestimate the frequency with whichfirearms were used by private citizens to defendagainst criminal attack.Yes. And? Other surveys/studies have backed up or exceeded the DOJestimates of at least 800,000-1.5 million DGUs per year.

Like they said, they feel that the numbers are OVERSTATED not
understated. That was the sentiment of most of the articles in the
link. They also provide reasons why they think the numbers are
overstated. I didn't see anyplace where they say they are correct or
understated.
Another statement indicates gun ownership is highest in rural andsmall-town America. Not the places that you think of when you talk ofhigh crime rates.So?I see where 32% of surveyed felons (sounds like Family Feud) hadstolen their guns. That is an average of 500,000 a year.They most often steal the same guns from each other. Ask any cop ordope dealer.

I didn't see any references to that, I'm not sure if one criminal
steals from another they will state that the gun is stolen.For further data, check this link and follow the footnotes at thebottom.http://www.gunowners.org/fs0101.htmStill working on the footnotes?GunnerGunner"By calling attention to 'a well regulated militia', the 'security' of the nation, and the right of each citizen 'to keep and bear arms', our founding fathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of our economy. Although it is extremely unlikely that the fears of governmental tyranny which gave rise to the Second Amendment will ever be a major danger to our nation, the Amendment still remains an important declaration of our basic civilian-military relationships, in which every citizen must be ready to participate in the defense of his country. For that reason, I believe the Second Amendment will always be important." -- Senator John F. Kennedy, (D) 1960Interesting statement, The 2dn amendment is important not because ofthe threat from our government but to defend our country from others.It seems like he is saying that it is important that people haveaccess to guns for the purpose of joining the military to defend thecountry."By calling attention to 'a well regulated militia', the 'security' of the nation, and the right of each citizen 'to keep and bear arms', our founding fathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of our economy. Although it is extremely unlikely that the fears of governmental tyranny which gave rise to the Second Amendment will ever be a major danger to our nation, the Amendment still remains an important declaration of our basic civilian-military relationships, in which every citizen must be ready to participate in the defense of his country. For that reason, I believe the Second Amendment will always be important." -- Senator John F. Kennedy, (D) 1960

'a well regulated militia' = military or state military (National
Guard)

'security' you forgot 'of the nation' again Military or organized
militia not individual carrying guns to use against fellow citizens.
Also need to remember the type of weapons of the time.

citizen 'to keep and bear arms' the ability to join a military or
militia No place do I see any reference to an individual right to
have guns for enjoyment or personal defense, only the defense of the
country against foreign governments.

JSS said ... <pharding_333@hotmail.com> wrote: What I am saying is that a person who is thinking of committing a crime will more likely commit one if he/she has a gun or other weapon.

You forgot to add, "in my opinion".

I seriously doubt you can find any real statistics to back this up.




Casey

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 00:04:02 -0400, JSS <onlyjunkmail@email.com>
wrote:
I never said that guns cause crime, a gun is an inanimate object justlike a car or a knife. What guns does is assist somebody that wants tocommit a crime. The same reason that most people would not go into adangerous situation without some sort of protection or a weapon.

By that rational..you MUST ban both shoes and motor vehicles. One is
used to run swiftly from the scene of the crime and the other to drive
to and from the scene of the crime.

Would you commit a crime, with no swift way to get away?

<G>

Gunner



"If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third
hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're
around."

"Democrat. In the dictionary it's right after demobilize and right
before demode` (out of fashion).
-Buddy Jordan 2001

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 00:21:46 -0400, JSS <onlyjunkmail@email.com>
wrote:
o Evidence suggests that this survey and otherslike it overestimate the frequency with whichfirearms were used by private citizens to defendagainst criminal attack.Yes. And? Other surveys/studies have backed up or exceeded the DOJestimates of at least 800,000-1.5 million DGUs per year.Like they said, they feel that the numbers are OVERSTATED notunderstated. That was the sentiment of most of the articles in thelink. They also provide reasons why they think the numbers areoverstated. I didn't see anyplace where they say they are correct orunderstated.

Note the use of the word "feel" with no presentation of evidence one
way or another. Other studies such as the Lott/Kleck/Mustard studies
feel such DGUs are Understated. Shrug...take your pick.

On the other hand..its evident that no matter the actual numbers, that
the DGUs are orders of magnitude higher than actual crimes commited
with firearms so its a net positive.Another statement indicates gun ownership is highest in rural andsmall-town America. Not the places that you think of when you talk ofhigh crime rates.So?I see where 32% of surveyed felons (sounds like Family Feud) hadstolen their guns. That is an average of 500,000 a year.They most often steal the same guns from each other. Ask any cop ordope dealer.I didn't see any references to that, I'm not sure if one criminalsteals from another they will state that the gun is stolen.

There are a bit more than 300,000,000 firearms in the US in civilian
hands. Do the math. How many thefts does it take to completly recycle
every firearm in the US, based on your figures? Then compare that
figure to those imported and manufactured yearly. By your figures, we
should be nearly depleted of firearms, where actually firearms
ownership is at an all time high.

Gunner



"If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third
hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're
around."

"Democrat. In the dictionary it's right after demobilize and right
before demode` (out of fashion).
-Buddy Jordan 2001

"JSS" <onlyjunkmail@email.com> wrote in message
'a well regulated militia' = military or state military (National Guard) 'security' you forgot 'of the nation' again Military or organized militia not individual carrying guns to use against fellow citizens. Also need to remember the type of weapons of the time. citizen 'to keep and bear arms' the ability to join a military or militia No place do I see any reference to an individual right to have guns for enjoyment or personal defense, only the defense of the country against foreign governments.

So, we have a constitutionally enshrined right to join the federally
controlled military. Even though the rest of the Bill of Rights focuses on
limits to government power.

How.... Odd.

Of course, you would like to back that up with something by someone who is
an expert in the English language as used in that era?

"JSS" <onlyjunkmail@email.com> wrote in message
news:305vn0t0ancpd56m7a5qdc9gctkdqtk2o9@4ax.com... On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 00:26:10 -0700, "Phillep" <pharding_333@hotmail.com> wrote:
LOL, Ever hear of the "Automobile"? How about Bonnie and Clyde? They got
the"good" press because they hit mostly banks. There were a bunch of otherbandits running around in Tin Lizzies, because the farmers of that era
metstrange Whites with friendship and trust, and the strange White folk fromthe cities made use of that. For a while. So what you are saying is that most criminals go driving 50 miles or more to commit crimes?

Who said anything about "most"?
You would think that most crime would be committed close to home.

It is. Soooo, if having a gun makes a person more likely to commit crimes,
why isn't there more crime in the rural parts of the country. Close to the
homes of those with more guns?
Oh, and I'd love to see how statistics "prove" rural areas are safer
becauseof isolation. A farm with a road nearby is not so "isolated" that banditscannot pose a risk. I'm sure that I will have no problem finding statistics "proving" a correlation between population density and crime.

Your words: "But it is not according to the stats. rural errors are some of
the
safest places to live because of the isolation. "

"Because of the isolation" implies causation. "Correlation is not
causation."

IMO, Isolation brings an awareness of vulnerability. This vulnerability is
addressed by the purchase of firearms. The presence of the firearms reduces
crime.

On second thought, that supports your point. Want to accept that support?
<G>

On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 07:59:28 GMT, Gunner <gunner@lightspeed.net>
wrote:
While Im not in the slightest prejudiced visa vis race (and otherswill back this up), its VERY interesting when you look at the ages andraces of both perps and victims of murder and violent crimes.


Want me to go back and pull up all those posts where you refer to my
hispanic wife as a "Tai boy" gummer.

Non-racist my ***...

ROTFLMAO...

On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 07:59:28 GMT, Gunner <gunner@lightspeed.net>
wrote:
On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 00:07:36 -0400, JSS <onlyjunkmail@email.com>wrote:You will also see that on Offense Tabulations, Table 1 the crime rateis down 33.4% between 94 and 2003 but only 9.2% between 99 and 2003.Looking just at the # or crimes it down 25.6% from 94 to 2003 but only3.1% of it happened between 99 and 2003.You will note of course that the US suffered a very bad recessionduring those years, and when the economy is bad, crime tends to rise,

Which was my original point .
hence the slowing of the rate of decline. Also, no matter what, therewill ALWAYS be crime and homicides. Its a baseline that is pretty welldefined and as one approches that baseline, rates of decline willslow, stop and then hold steady.If you will also look at the racial break down in the murder rates,you will find that Hispanics are the largest single rising racialgroup committing murders. This of course due to the influx of newimmigrants and often fighting with the current drug dealers for turf.While Im not in the slightest prejudiced visa vis race (and otherswill back this up), its VERY interesting when you look at the ages andraces of both perps and victims of murder and violent crimes.You might also look at the data filtered though the states that haveCCW Shall Issue, and compare them against states that have strict guncontrol laws, on a per 100,000 basis.Just some food for thought.Gunner"By calling attention to 'a well regulated militia', the 'security' of the nation, and the right of each citizen 'to keep and bear arms', our founding fathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of our economy. Although it is extremely unlikely that the fears of governmental tyranny which gave rise to the Second Amendment will ever be a major danger to our nation, the Amendment still remains an important declaration of our basic civilian-military relationships, in which every citizen must be ready to participate in the defense of his country. For that reason, I believe the Second Amendment will always be important." -- Senator John F. Kennedy, (D) 1960

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:53:01 -0700, "Phillep"
<pharding_333@hotmail.com> wrote:
"JSS" <onlyjunkmail@email.com> wrote in message 'a well regulated militia' = military or state military (National Guard) 'security' you forgot 'of the nation' again Military or organized militia not individual carrying guns to use against fellow citizens. Also need to remember the type of weapons of the time. citizen 'to keep and bear arms' the ability to join a military or militia No place do I see any reference to an individual right to have guns for enjoyment or personal defense, only the defense of the country against foreign governments.So, we have a constitutionally enshrined right to join the federallycontrolled military. Even though the rest of the Bill of Rights focuses onlimits to government power.
No, a state militia. George Washington and the other founders were
more concerned with keeping us out of foreign entanglements they they
were about other countries invading us.How.... Odd.Of course, you would like to back that up with something by someone who isan expert in the English language as used in that era?
I don't think that you will fine any references to owning a gun as a
right until sometime in the 1930's.

"JSS" <onlyjunkmail@email.com> wrote in message
news:dvv4o0p567185f7230in7cvl4b4kq6hudh@4ax.com... On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:53:01 -0700, "Phillep"
So, we have a constitutionally enshrined right to join the federallycontrolled military. Even though the rest of the Bill of Rights focuses
onlimits to government power. No, a state militia. George Washington and the other founders were more concerned with keeping us out of foreign entanglements they they were about other countries invading us.

That remains odd, that the right of citizens to "join" a state militia is
right there in the middle of a bunch of individual rights.

The state militias have been federalized. You are saying that the federal
government is in violation of the constitution by doing so.

Not to worry, "state militia" is not relevant:

The _federal_law_ regarding the "unorganized militia": (b)(2) below.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/10/311.shtml

§ 311. Militia: composition and classes

Release date: 2004-03-18

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males
at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title
32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of
intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female
citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.

(b) The classes of the militia are-

(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the
Naval Militia; and

(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the
militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.


More at:
http://www.guncite.com/gc2ndmea.html

Of course, you would like to back that up with something by someone who
isan expert in the English language as used in that era? I don't think that you will fine any references to owning a gun as a right until sometime in the 1930's.

You should have left it as "I don't think."

These predate 1930 by a good bit:

We established however some, although not all its [self-government]
important principles . The constitutions of most of our States assert, that
all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by
themselves, in all cases to which they think themselves competent, (as in
electing their functionaries executive and legislative, and deciding by a
jury of themselves, in all judiciary cases in which any fact is involved,)
or they may act by representatives, freely and equally chosen; that it is
their right and duty to be at all times armed;
---Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824. Memorial Edition
16:45, Lipscomb and Bergh, editors.

No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms.
---Thomas Jefferson: Draft Virginia Constitution, 1776.

[The Constitution preserves] the advantage of being armed which Americans
possess over the people of almost every other nation...(where) the
governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.
---James Madison,The Federalist Papers, No. 46.

Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in
almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce
unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed,
and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be,
on any pretence, raised in the United States. A military force, at the
command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to
be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousy
will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law
which appears to them unjust and oppressive.
---Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the
Federal Constitution (Philadelphia 1787).

Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we
shall turn our arms each man gainst his own bosom. Congress have no power to
disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the
soldier, are the birthright of an American...[T]he unlimited power of the
sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but,
where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people.
---Tenche Coxe, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.

[W]hereas, to preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the
people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how
to use them; nor does it follow from this, that all promiscuously must go
into actual service on every occasion. The mind that aims at a select
militia, must be influenced by a truly anti-republican principle; and when
we see many men disposed to practice upon it, whenever they can prevail, no
wonder true republicans are for carefully guarding against it.
---Richard Henry Lee, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.

"JSS" <onlyjunkmail@email.com> wrote in message
news:dvv4o0p567185f7230in7cvl4b4kq6hudh@4ax.com... I don't think that you will fine any references to owning a gun as a right until sometime in the 1930's.

Huh???

"YooperBoyka" <cj.don'twant@no.spam> wrote in message
news:te-dnUfEwIK6Zx_cRVn-3A@comcast.com...
<chuckle> Thank you.

You're welcome
I fully expect these to be conveniently ignored, though.

True. He's just another Democrat shill. Usenet is infested with them this
time around.

I keep waiting for someone to figure out what's going on. Are these
freelance volunteers? or is there some boiler room operation? University
professors giving out extra credit for students posting to the net?

"Phillep" <pharding_333@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hu6dnYEDUremaB_cRVn-qQ@scnresearch.com... "JSS" <onlyjunkmail@email.com> wrote in message I don't think that you will fine any references to owning a gun as a right until sometime in the 1930's. You should have left it as "I don't think." These predate 1930 by a good bit: We established however some, although not all its [self-government] important principles . The constitutions of most of our States assert, that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves, in all cases to which they think themselves competent, (as in electing their functionaries executive and legislative, and deciding by a jury of themselves, in all judiciary cases in which any fact is involved,) or they may act by representatives, freely and equally chosen; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; ---Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824. Memorial Edition 16:45, Lipscomb and Bergh, editors. No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms. ---Thomas Jefferson: Draft Virginia Constitution, 1776. [The Constitution preserves] the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation...(where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. ---James Madison,The Federalist Papers, No. 46. Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousy will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law which appears to them unjust and oppressive. ---Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution (Philadelphia 1787). Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man gainst his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American...[T]he unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people. ---Tenche Coxe, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788. [W]hereas, to preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them; nor does it follow from this, that all promiscuously must go into actual service on every occasion. The mind that aims at a select militia, must be influenced by a truly anti-republican principle; and when we see many men disposed to practice upon it, whenever they can prevail, no wonder true republicans are for carefully guarding against it. ---Richard Henry Lee, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.

<chuckle>
Thank you.
I fully expect these to be conveniently ignored, though.

On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 13:42:43 -0400, JSS <onlyjunkmail@email.com>
wrote:
On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:53:01 -0700, "Phillep"<pharding_333@hotmail.com> wrote:"JSS" <onlyjunkmail@email.com> wrote in message 'a well regulated militia' = military or state military (National Guard) 'security' you forgot 'of the nation' again Military or organized militia not individual carrying guns to use against fellow citizens. Also need to remember the type of weapons of the time. citizen 'to keep and bear arms' the ability to join a military or militia No place do I see any reference to an individual right to have guns for enjoyment or personal defense, only the defense of the country against foreign governments.So, we have a constitutionally enshrined right to join the federallycontrolled military. Even though the rest of the Bill of Rights focuses onlimits to government power.No, a state militia. George Washington and the other founders weremore concerned with keeping us out of foreign entanglements they theywere about other countries invading us.How.... Odd.Of course, you would like to back that up with something by someone who isan expert in the English language as used in that era?I don't think that you will fine any references to owning a gun as aright until sometime in the 1930's.

Blink blink...huh?

Gunner

"By calling attention to 'a well regulated militia', the 'security' of the nation, and the right of each citizen 'to keep and bear arms', our founding fathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of our economy. Although it is extremely unlikely that the fears of governmental tyranny which gave rise to the Second Amendment will ever be a major danger to our nation, the Amendment still remains an important declaration of our basic civilian-military relationships, in which every citizen must be ready to participate in the defense of his country. For that reason, I believe the Second Amendment will always be important."
-- Senator John F. Kennedy, (D) 1960

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:18:10 GMT, Gunner <gunnerNOSPAM@lightspeed.net>
wrote:
On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 00:04:02 -0400, JSS <onlyjunkmail@email.com>wrote:I never said that guns cause crime, a gun is an inanimate object justlike a car or a knife. What guns does is assist somebody that wants tocommit a crime. The same reason that most people would not go into adangerous situation without some sort of protection or a weapon.By that rational..you MUST ban both shoes and motor vehicles. One isused to run swiftly from the scene of the crime and the other to driveto and from the scene of the crime.Would you commit a crime, with no swift way to get away?

If you are going to think that way, all we need to do is eliminate the
concept of personal property. That should eliminate most crime.<G>Gunner"If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a thirdhand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they'rearound.""Democrat. In the dictionary it's right after demobilize and rightbefore demode` (out of fashion).-Buddy Jordan 2001

Or you can use the definition from www.m-w.com b : one who practices
social equality

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:47:33 -0500, Casey <cclremovethispart@cox.net>
wrote:
JSS said ... <pharding_333@hotmail.com> wrote: What I am saying is that a person who is thinking of committing a crime will more likely commit one if he/she has a gun or other weapon.You forgot to add, "in my opinion".I seriously doubt you can find any real statistics to back this up.Casey

You are right, I should have said "in my opinion" because we all know
that most people go into a situation from a position of weakness
rather then strength, i.e. having a gun or some other weapon.

In my opinion.

On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 17:57:14 -0700, "Phillep"
<pharding_333@hotmail.com> wrote:
"JSS" <onlyjunkmail@email.com> wrote in messagenews:dvv4o0p567185f7230in7cvl4b4kq6hudh@4ax .com... On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:53:01 -0700, "Phillep"So, we have a constitutionally enshrined right to join the federallycontrolled military. Even though the rest of the Bill of Rights focusesonlimits to government power. No, a state militia. George Washington and the other founders were more concerned with keeping us out of foreign entanglements they they were about other countries invading us.That remains odd, that the right of citizens to "join" a state militia isright there in the middle of a bunch of individual rights.The state militias have been federalized. You are saying that the federalgovernment is in violation of the constitution by doing so.
Yes, I do. There is a statement that says basically that all powers
that is not expressly given to the federal government in the
constitution belongs to the states.
Not to worry, "state militia" is not relevant:The _federal_law_ regarding the "unorganized militia": (b)(2) below.http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/10/311.shtml§ 311. Militia: composition and classesRelease date: 2004-03-18(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied malesat least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration ofintention to become, citizens of the United States and of femalecitizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.(b) The classes of the militia are-(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and theNaval Militia; and(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of themilitia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.More at:http://www.guncite.com/gc2ndmea.htmlOf course, you would like to back that up with something by someone whoisan expert in the English language as used in that era? I don't think that you will fine any references to owning a gun as a right until sometime in the 1930's.You should have left it as "I don't think."These predate 1930 by a good bit:We established however some, although not all its [self-government]important principles . The constitutions of most of our States assert, thatall power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it bythemselves, in all cases to which they think themselves competent, (as inelecting their functionaries executive and legislative, and deciding by ajury of themselves, in all judiciary cases in which any fact is involved,)or they may act by representatives, freely and equally chosen; that it istheir right and duty to be at all times armed; ---Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824. Memorial Edition16:45, Lipscomb and Bergh, editors.No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms. ---Thomas Jefferson: Draft Virginia Constitution, 1776.[The Constitution preserves] the advantage of being armed which Americanspossess over the people of almost every other nation...(where) thegovernments are afraid to trust the people with arms. ---James Madison,The Federalist Papers, No. 46.Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are inalmost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforceunjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed,and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be,on any pretence, raised in the United States. A military force, at thecommand of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive tobe just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousywill instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a lawwhich appears to them unjust and oppressive. ---Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of theFederal Constitution (Philadelphia 1787).Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that weshall turn our arms each man gainst his own bosom. Congress have no power todisarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of thesoldier, are the birthright of an American...[T]he unlimited power of thesword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but,where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people. ---Tenche Coxe, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.[W]hereas, to preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of thepeople always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, howto use them; nor does it follow from this, that all promiscuously must gointo actual service on every occasion. The mind that aims at a selectmilitia, must be influenced by a truly anti-republican principle; and whenwe see many men disposed to practice upon it, whenever they can prevail, nowonder true republicans are for carefully guarding against it. ---Richard Henry Lee, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.

"JSS" <onlyjunkmail@email.com> wrote in message
news:nbv8o0hrfmug72amscfkd5k5b56h2pfn5i@4ax.com... On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 17:57:14 -0700, "Phillep" <pharding_333@hotmail.com> wrote:
The state militias have been federalized. You are saying that the federalgovernment is in violation of the constitution by doing so. Yes, I do. There is a statement that says basically that all powers that is not expressly given to the federal government in the constitution belongs to the states.

So, you are denying that the Constitution gives that right to the Federal
government?

Interesting.

Dan

On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 01:40:43 -0400, JSS <onlyjunkmail@email.com>
wrote:
On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:18:10 GMT, Gunner <gunnerNOSPAM@lightspeed.net>wrote:On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 00:04:02 -0400, JSS <onlyjunkmail@email.com>wrote:I never said that guns cause crime, a gun is an inanimate object justlike a car or a knife. What guns does is assist somebody that wants tocommit a crime. The same reason that most people would not go into adangerous situation without some sort of protection or a weapon.By that rational..you MUST ban both shoes and motor vehicles. One isused to run swiftly from the scene of the crime and the other to driveto and from the scene of the crime.Would you commit a crime, with no swift way to get away?If you are going to think that way, all we need to do is eliminate theconcept of personal property. That should eliminate most crime.

Indeed. So what are our other choices? Removing firearms or making
them illegal to own hasnt worked. So whaz your plan, man?

Gunner

<G>Gunner"If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a thirdhand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they'rearound.""Democrat. In the dictionary it's right after demobilize and rightbefore demode` (out of fashion).-Buddy Jordan 2001Or you can use the definition from www.m-w.com b : one who practicessocial equality

"As physicists now know, there is some nonzero probability that any object will,
through quantum effects, tunnel from the workbench in your shop to Floyds Knobs,
Indiana (unless your shop is already in Indiana, in which case the object will
tunnel to Trotters, North Dakota).
The smaller mass of the object, the higher the probability.
Therefore, disassembled parts, particularly small ones,
of machines disappear much faster than assembled machines."
Greg Dermer: rec.crafts.metalworking

On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 01:59:22 -0400, JSS <onlyjunkmail@email.com>
wrote:
On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 17:57:14 -0700, "Phillep"<pharding_333@hotmail.com> wrote:"JSS" <onlyjunkmail@email.com> wrote in messagenews:dvv4o0p567185f7230in7cvl4b4kq6hudh@4ax .com... On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:53:01 -0700, "Phillep" >So, we have a constitutionally enshrined right to join the federally >controlled military. Even though the rest of the Bill of Rights focuseson >limits to government power. No, a state militia. George Washington and the other founders were more concerned with keeping us out of foreign entanglements they they were about other countries invading us.That remains odd, that the right of citizens to "join" a state militia isright there in the middle of a bunch of individual rights.The state militias have been federalized. You are saying that the federalgovernment is in violation of the constitution by doing so.Yes, I do. There is a statement that says basically that all powersthat is not expressly given to the federal government in theconstitution belongs to the states.

Or to the People.

Gunner
Not to worry, "state militia" is not relevant:The _federal_law_ regarding the "unorganized militia": (b)(2) below.http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/10/311.shtml§ 311. Militia: composition and classesRelease date: 2004-03-18(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied malesat least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration ofintention to become, citizens of the United States and of femalecitizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.(b) The classes of the militia are-(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and theNaval Militia; and(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of themilitia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.More at:http://www.guncite.com/gc2ndmea.html >Of course, you would like to back that up with something by someone whois >an expert in the English language as used in that era? > I don't think that you will fine any references to owning a gun as a right until sometime in the 1930's.You should have left it as "I don't think."These predate 1930 by a good bit:We established however some, although not all its [self-government]important principles . The constitutions of most of our States assert, thatall power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it bythemselves, in all cases to which they think themselves competent, (as inelecting their functionaries executive and legislative, and deciding by ajury of themselves, in all judiciary cases in which any fact is involved,)or they may act by representatives, freely and equally chosen; that it istheir right and duty to be at all times armed; ---Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824. Memorial Edition16:45, Lipscomb and Bergh, editors.No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms. ---Thomas Jefferson: Draft Virginia Constitution, 1776.[The Constitution preserves] the advantage of being armed which Americanspossess over the people of almost every other nation...(where) thegovernments are afraid to trust the people with arms. ---James Madison,The Federalist Papers, No. 46.Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are inalmost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforceunjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed,and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be,on any pretence, raised in the United States. A military force, at thecommand of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive tobe just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousywill instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a lawwhich appears to them unjust and oppressive. ---Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of theFederal Constitution (Philadelphia 1787).Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that weshall turn our arms each man gainst his own bosom. Congress have no power todisarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of thesoldier, are the birthright of an American...[T]he unlimited power of thesword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but,where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people. ---Tenche Coxe, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.[W]hereas, to preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of thepeople always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, howto use them; nor does it follow from this, that all promiscuously must gointo actual service on every occasion. The mind that aims at a selectmilitia, must be influenced by a truly anti-republican principle; and whenwe see many men disposed to practice upon it, whenever they can prevail, nowonder true republicans are for carefully guarding against it. ---Richard Henry Lee, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.

"As physicists now know, there is some nonzero probability that any object will,
through quantum effects, tunnel from the workbench in your shop to Floyds Knobs,
Indiana (unless your shop is already in Indiana, in which case the object will
tunnel to Trotters, North Dakota).
The smaller mass of the object, the higher the probability.
Therefore, disassembled parts, particularly small ones,
of machines disappear much faster than assembled machines."
Greg Dermer: rec.crafts.metalworking

"JSS" <onlyjunkmail@email.com> wrote in message
news:jnu8o0p9jiotn2k8pgu20b281sqg5vae69@4ax.com... On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:47:33 -0500, Casey <cclremovethispart@cox.net> wrote:JSS said ... <pharding_333@hotmail.com> wrote: What I am saying is that a person who is thinking of committing a crime will more likely commit one if he/she has a gun or other weapon.You forgot to add, "in my opinion".I seriously doubt you can find any real statistics to back this up.Casey You are right, I should have said "in my opinion" because we all know that most people go into a situation from a position of weakness rather then strength, i.e. having a gun or some other weapon.

Not having a weapon is NOT "a position of weakness".
I can prove that to you in person, if you'd like.

On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 12:43:46 -0500, "YooperBoyka"
<cj.don'twant@no.spam> wrote:
"JSS" <onlyjunkmail@email.com> wrote in messagenews:jnu8o0p9jiotn2k8pgu20b281sqg5vae69@4ax .com... On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:47:33 -0500, Casey <cclremovethispart@cox.net> wrote:JSS said ...> <pharding_333@hotmail.com> wrote:>> What I am saying is that a person who is thinking of committing a> crime will more likely commit one if he/she has a gun or other weapon.You forgot to add, "in my opinion".I seriously doubt you can find any real statistics to back this up.Casey You are right, I should have said "in my opinion" because we all know that most people go into a situation from a position of weakness rather then strength, i.e. having a gun or some other weapon.Not having a weapon is NOT "a position of weakness".I can prove that to you in person, if you'd like.

Having a weapon is not necessarily a position of strength either.
Having the will is needed regardless of the weapon.

Russ

"Russ" <carlzomer@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hv8bo0l5hc9cu8aj9iise6is6phdp823rj@4ax.com... Having a weapon is not necessarily a position of strength either. Having the will is needed regardless of the weapon.


Quite true.

On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 10:08:12 GMT, Gunner <gunner@lightspeed.net>
wrote:
On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 01:40:43 -0400, JSS <onlyjunkmail@email.com>wrote:On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:18:10 GMT, Gunner <gunnerNOSPAM@lightspeed.net>wrote:On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 00:04:02 -0400, JSS <onlyjunkmail@email.com>wrote:>I never said that guns cause crime, a gun is an inanimate object just>like a car or a knife. What guns does is assist somebody that wants to>commit a crime. The same reason that most people would not go into a>dangerous situation without some sort of protection or a weapon.By that rational..you MUST ban both shoes and motor vehicles. One isused to run swiftly from the scene of the crime and the other to driveto and from the scene of the crime.Would you commit a crime, with no swift way to get away?If you are going to think that way, all we need to do is eliminate theconcept of personal property. That should eliminate most crime.Indeed. So what are our other choices? Removing firearms or makingthem illegal to own hasnt worked. So whaz your plan, man?

Unless I missed something, firearms have never been removed or illegal
to own. There have been certain ones that are illegal to own and
others that you need to own a license to own but all firearms have
never been banned or illegal to own. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Crime hasn't been eliminated in places that have gun control nor has
it been in places that allow almost unlimited access to guns.

Maybe we should look into the reasons people commit crimes and work on
those issues.

Do you have a plan?
Gunner<G>Gunner"If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a thirdhand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they'rearound.""Democrat. In the dictionary it's right after demobilize and rightbefore demode` (out of fashion).-Buddy Jordan 2001Or you can use the definition from www.m-w.com b : one who practicessocial equality"As physicists now know, there is some nonzero probability that any object will,through quantum effects, tunnel from the workbench in your shop to Floyds Knobs,Indiana (unless your shop is already in Indiana, in which case the object willtunnel to Trotters, North Dakota).The smaller mass of the object, the higher the probability.Therefore, disassembled parts, particularly small ones,of machines disappear much faster than assembled machines." Greg Dermer: rec.crafts.metalworking

On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 12:43:46 -0500, "YooperBoyka"
<cj.don'twant@no.spam> wrote:
"JSS" <onlyjunkmail@email.com> wrote in messagenews:jnu8o0p9jiotn2k8pgu20b281sqg5vae69@4ax .com... On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 07:47:33 -0500, Casey <cclremovethispart@cox.net> wrote:JSS said ...> <pharding_333@hotmail.com> wrote:>> What I am saying is that a person who is thinking of committing a> crime will more likely commit one if he/she has a gun or other weapon.You forgot to add, "in my opinion".I seriously doubt you can find any real statistics to back this up.Casey You are right, I should have said "in my opinion" because we all know that most people go into a situation from a position of weakness rather then strength, i.e. having a gun or some other weapon.Not having a weapon is NOT "a position of weakness".I can prove that to you in person, if you'd like.
So what you are saying is that it doesn't matter if you have a weapon
or not you would act the same in all situations?

On Mon, 01 Nov 2004 01:47:48 -0500, JSS <onlyjunkmail@email.com>
wrote:
On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 10:08:12 GMT, Gunner <gunner@lightspeed.net>wrote:On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 01:40:43 -0400, JSS <onlyjunkmail@email.com>wrote:On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 16:18:10 GMT, Gunner <gunnerNOSPAM@lightspeed.net>wrote:>On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 00:04:02 -0400, JSS <onlyjunkmail@email.com>>wrote:>>>I never said that guns cause crime, a gun is an inanimate object just>>like a car or a knife. What guns does is assist somebody that wants to>>commit a crime. The same reason that most people would not go into a>>dangerous situation without some sort of protection or a weapon.>>By that rational..you MUST ban both shoes and motor vehicles. One is>used to run swiftly from the scene of the crime and the other to drive>to and from the scene of the crime.>>Would you commit a crime, with no swift way to get away?If you are going to think that way, all we need to do is eliminate theconcept of personal property. That should eliminate most crime.>Indeed. So what are our other choices? Removing firearms or makingthem illegal to own hasnt worked. So whaz your plan, man?Unless I missed something, firearms have never been removed or illegalto own. There have been certain ones that are illegal to own andothers that you need to own a license to own but all firearms havenever been banned or illegal to own. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

New York City, Washington DC for starters, and several other places in
the US, and of course Britain.Crime hasn't been eliminated in places that have gun control nor hasit been in places that allow almost unlimited access to guns.Maybe we should look into the reasons people commit crimes and work onthose issues.Do you have a plan?

Sure. Punish the criminals to the full extent of the law, and allow
universal CCW to non felons.

Wont stop crime. Nothing will. But it tends to lower the recidivism
rate tremendously. So it will lower the crime rate even more than it
is now. Most crimes are committed by 10% of the criminals. Repeat
offenders who have learned to use revolving door justice system.

If they are killed by their intended victims, they tend to not commit
any crimes later on.

Gunner
Gunner><G>>>Gunner>>>>"If I'm going to reach out to the the Democrats then I need a third>hand.There's no way I'm letting go of my wallet or my gun while they're>around.">>"Democrat. In the dictionary it's right after demobilize and right>before demode` (out of fashion).>-Buddy Jordan 2001Or you can use the definition from www.m-w.com b : one who practicessocial equality"As physicists now know, there is some nonzero probability that any object will,through quantum effects, tunnel from the workbench in your shop to Floyds Knobs,Indiana (unless your shop is already in Indiana, in which case the object willtunnel to Trotters, North Dakota).The smaller mass of the object, the higher the probability.Therefore, disassembled parts, particularly small ones,of machines disappear much faster than assembled machines." Greg Dermer: rec.crafts.metalworking

"As physicists now know, there is some nonzero probability
that any object will, through quantum effects, tunnel from the
workbench in your shop to Floyds Knobs, Indiana (unless your
shop is already in Indiana, in which case the object will tunnel
to Trotters, North Dakota). The smaller mass of the object, the
higher the probability. Therefore, disassembled parts,
particularly small ones, of machines disappear much faster than
assembled machines." Greg Dermer: rec.crafts.metalworking

"JSS" <onlyjunkmail@email.com> wrote in message
Maybe we should look into the reasons people commit crimes and work on those issues.

I grew up in an Okie criminal culture. In that case it was socialization
into a scoff-law attitude. There was no objective *need* for committing
crimes, it was just easier than getting a job, with better hours. Pay was
pretty crappy.

Sit around, drink beer, smoke cigarettes, tell lies, ***** about how the
cops screwed someone over merely for robbing a service station or stealing a
car, complain about how the cops lied about whatever, etc. (It could be
pissing down rain and if a cop said it was wet out, that was automatically a
lie, because a cop said it.)

Now days? Add drugs and a lot more killings, and a lot more bigotry. I mean
bigotry based murders by all ethnic groups. We gotta "cherish diversity",
you know.

From what I've seen, the Negro, Mexican, and Filipino crime culture isn't
all that different from the Okie crime culture. Considering humans have a
distressing habit of acting human, no matter what the soft brained jackasses
claim, I doubt the other ethnic group crime cultures are much different.

The "liberal" approach to crime control increases crime.

(Digression: I'm putting political labels in quotes when I think the labels
have nothing to do with the "contents" of the groups. "Liberals", are not
liberal. They are trying to set up a type of tyranny.)

Not that the "liberal" approach is supposed to do anything else. Back in the
60's, there were people openly talking about "tearing down the system" and
"radicalizing the masses". "Revolution not evolution!" The "liberals" were,
and are, actively trying to increase crime rates to make people unhappy with
the status quo. The original idea was to make them vulnerable to recruitment
by the radical (Communist/Progressive/etc) movement. People who are
satisfied with what they have and the way things are going, don't join
radical groups and tear things down.

Now, the "liberals" are bogged down in tearing things apart, and have
completely forgotten how to build organizations. The people trying to put
things together are the "conservatives", "neo-cons", and "right wingers".

Mostly.

I'm not real sure what Soros is up to. He was responsible for "Black
Tuesday" in England and the trashing of the economies of several other
nations. Purely for profit. He expresses no remorse for these acts. He is
the stereotype Jewish financier, the heartless moneybags who kicks widows
and orphans out in the street (perhaps metaphorically).

Now, he backs Kerry? The "Compassionate" candidate?

This is a start:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=15392

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=15408

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=15461

There is a chance that Soros is trying to build a dynasty like the one the
Kennedy's had. Of course, he might be trying to send the US to the chop
shop, too. I can't see what he plans to do with the money he'd make by
wrecking the US, and destroying the best place to spend the money he steals.

"JSS" <onlyjunkmail@email.com> wrote in message
news:d4nbo0590ccguq9vuaqfomg3k2ehc6acu4@4ax.com... On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 12:43:46 -0500, "YooperBoyka" <cj.don'twant@no.spam> wrote:Not having a weapon is NOT "a position of weakness".I can prove that to you in person, if you'd like. So what you are saying is that it doesn't matter if you have a weapon or not you would act the same in all situations?

Wow.
You are capable of monumental leaps of "logic",
aren't you.
No,...that's not what I'm saying.
But the likelihood of a criminal "behaving badly"
with or without a weapon *is* rather high.
JMHO

On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 00:51:56 -0800, "Phillep"
<pharding_333@hotmail.com> wrote:
"JSS" <onlyjunkmail@email.com> wrote in message Maybe we should look into the reasons people commit crimes and work on those issues.I grew up in an Okie criminal culture. In that case it was socializationinto a scoff-law attitude. There was no objective *need* for committingcrimes, it was just easier than getting a job, with better hours. Pay waspretty crappy.Sit around, drink beer, smoke cigarettes, tell lies, ***** about how thecops screwed someone over merely for robbing a service station or stealing acar, complain about how the cops lied about whatever, etc. (It could bepissing down rain and if a cop said it was wet out, that was automatically alie, because a cop said it.)Now days? Add drugs and a lot more killings, and a lot more bigotry. I meanbigotry based murders by all ethnic groups. We gotta "cherish diversity",you know.From what I've seen, the Negro, Mexican, and Filipino crime culture isn'tall that different from the Okie crime culture. Considering humans have adistressing habit of acting human, no matter what the soft brained jackassesclaim, I doubt the other ethnic group crime cultures are much different.The "liberal" approach to crime control increases crime.(Digression: I'm putting political labels in quotes when I think the labelshave nothing to do with the "contents" of the groups. "Liberals", are notliberal. They are trying to set up a type of tyranny.)Not that the "liberal" approach is supposed to do anything else. Back in the60's, there were people openly talking about "tearing down the system" and"radicalizing the masses". "Revolution not evolution!" The "liberals" were,and are, actively trying to increase crime rates to make people unhappy withthe status quo. The original idea was to make them vulnerable to recruitmentby the radical (Communist/Progressive/etc) movement. People who aresatisfied with what they have and the way things are going, don't joinradical groups and tear things down.Now, the "liberals" are bogged down in tearing things apart, and havecompletely forgotten how to build organizations. The people trying to putthings together are the "conservatives", "neo-cons", and "right wingers".Mostly.I'm not real sure what Soros is up to. He was responsible for "BlackTuesday" in England and the trashing of the economies of several othernations. Purely for profit. He expresses no remorse for these acts. He isthe stereotype Jewish financier, the heartless moneybags who kicks widowsand orphans out in the street (perhaps metaphorically).Now, he backs Kerry? The "Compassionate" candidate?This is a start:http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=15392http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=15408http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=15461There is a chance that Soros is trying to build a dynasty like the one theKennedy's had. Of course, he might be trying to send the US to the chopshop, too. I can't see what he plans to do with the money he'd make bywrecking the US, and destroying the best place to spend the money he steals.
Haven't looked at most of the site but does it say anything negative
about Bush or other conservative ideas. Does it say anything good
about liberal ideas or people?

On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 05:20:31 -0500, "YooperBoyka"
<cj.don'twant@no.spam> wrote:
"JSS" <onlyjunkmail@email.com> wrote in messagenews:d4nbo0590ccguq9vuaqfomg3k2ehc6acu4@4ax .com... On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 12:43:46 -0500, "YooperBoyka" <cj.don'twant@no.spam> wrote:Not having a weapon is NOT "a position of weakness".I can prove that to you in person, if you'd like. So what you are saying is that it doesn't matter if you have a weapon or not you would act the same in all situations?Wow.You are capable of monumental leaps of "logic",aren't you.No,...that's not what I'm saying.But the likelihood of a criminal "behaving badly"with or without a weapon *is* rather high.JMHO
You're telling me that having a gun does not does not change how a
person acts and I'm making a "monumental leaps of "logic""
IMHO

"JSS" <onlyjunkmail@email.com> wrote in message
news:qugco0pperh4k9tosctkrqpbju314on4ic@4ax.com... On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 05:20:31 -0500, "YooperBoyka" <cj.don'twant@no.spam> wrote:"JSS" <onlyjunkmail@email.com> wrote in messagenews:d4nbo0590ccguq9vuaqfomg3k2ehc6acu4@4ax .com... On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 12:43:46 -0500, "YooperBoyka" <cj.don'twant@no.spam> wrote:>>Not having a weapon is NOT "a position of weakness".>I can prove that to you in person, if you'd like.> So what you are saying is that it doesn't matter if you have a weapon or not you would act the same in all situations?Wow.You are capable of monumental leaps of "logic",aren't you.No,...that's not what I'm saying.But the likelihood of a criminal "behaving badly"with or without a weapon *is* rather high.JMHO You're telling me that having a gun does not does not change how a person acts and I'm making a "monumental leaps of "logic"" IMHO

I could get awful tired of you sticking words in my mouth.
Read what I wrote.
I meant no more than the exact words would indicate.
If *you* feel weaker without a weapon,...well,
there ya go.
Guns are not *essential* to commit a crime.
Granted, it's difficult to do a "drive by shooting" without one,
but that's not really the type of crime you're talking about, is it?
I'm not going to get involved with burning your straw men.
You seem to build them too fast.

On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 09:31:35 -0500, "YooperBoyka"
<cj.don'twant@no.spam> wrote:
"JSS" <onlyjunkmail@email.com> wrote in messagenews:qugco0pperh4k9tosctkrqpbju314on4ic@4ax .com... On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 05:20:31 -0500, "YooperBoyka" <cj.don'twant@no.spam> wrote:"JSS" <onlyjunkmail@email.com> wrote in messagenews:d4nbo0590ccguq9vuaqfomg3k2ehc6acu4@4ax .com...> On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 12:43:46 -0500, "YooperBoyka"> <cj.don'twant@no.spam> wrote:>>>>Not having a weapon is NOT "a position of weakness".>>I can prove that to you in person, if you'd like.>>> So what you are saying is that it doesn't matter if you have a weapon> or not you would act the same in all situations?Wow.You are capable of monumental leaps of "logic",aren't you.No,...that's not what I'm saying.But the likelihood of a criminal "behaving badly"with or without a weapon *is* rather high.JMHO You're telling me that having a gun does not does not change how a person acts and I'm making a "monumental leaps of "logic"" IMHOI could get awful tired of you sticking words in my mouth.Read what I wrote.I meant no more than the exact words would indicate.If *you* feel weaker without a weapon,...well,there ya go.Guns are not *essential* to commit a crime.Granted, it's difficult to do a "drive by shooting" without one,but that's not really the type of crime you're talking about, is it?

No it's not.
I'm not going to get involved with burning your straw men.You seem to build them too fast.
But you are doing the same with what I say. A simple yes or no answer
will do. If you are in a situation (whether committing a crime or as a
victim of a crime) will your actions be different if you have a gun or
some other type of weapon then if you do not.

Would your actions be any different in a specific situation based on
the fact that you have a gun or some other weapon. The only difference
is in one situation is that you have a gun in one and the other you
don't. You could be the victim or the person committing the crime, it
doesn't matter.

"JSS" <onlyjunkmail@email.com> wrote in message
news:182do09e16h6u3g1ftu3o2u4u5u8v526gc@4ax.com... On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 09:31:35 -0500, "YooperBoyka" <cj.don'twant@no.spam> wrote:"JSS" <onlyjunkmail@email.com> wrote in messagenews:qugco0pperh4k9tosctkrqpbju314on4ic@4ax .com... On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 05:20:31 -0500, "YooperBoyka" <cj.don'twant@no.spam> wrote:>>"JSS" <onlyjunkmail@email.com> wrote in message>news:d4nbo0590ccguq9vuaqfomg3k2ehc6acu4@4ax.com...>> On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 12:43:46 -0500, "YooperBoyka">> <cj.don'twant@no.spam> wrote:>>>>>>Not having a weapon is NOT "a position of weakness".>>>I can prove that to you in person, if you'd like.>>>>> So what you are saying is that it doesn't matter if you have a weapon>> or not you would act the same in all situations?>>Wow.>You are capable of monumental leaps of "logic",>aren't you.>No,...that's not what I'm saying.>But the likelihood of a criminal "behaving badly">with or without a weapon *is* rather high.>JMHO> You're telling me that having a gun does not does not change how a person acts and I'm making a "monumental leaps of "logic"" IMHOI could get awful tired of you sticking words in my mouth.Read what I wrote.I meant no more than the exact words would indicate.If *you* feel weaker without a weapon,...well,there ya go.Guns are not *essential* to commit a crime.Granted, it's difficult to do a "drive by shooting" without one,but that's not really the type of crime you're talking about, is it? No it's not.I'm not going to get involved with burning your straw men.You seem to build them too fast. But you are doing the same with what I say. A simple yes or no answer will do. If you are in a situation (whether committing a crime or as a victim of a crime) will your actions be different if you have a gun or some other type of weapon then if you do not.

Me, personally?
No.
But then,...I'm not a criminal.
(By your definition, I might be, ...I dunno)
Would your actions be any different in a specific situation based on the fact that you have a gun or some other weapon. The only difference is in one situation is that you have a gun in one and the other you don't. You could be the victim or the person committing the crime, it doesn't matter.

Understanding combat and predatory behavior,
my decisions will always be based on the knowledge
and tools I have available at any given moment.
That has little, if anything to do with whether guns
are a contributing factor in crime or not.
Get to the point.

"JSS" <onlyjunkmail@email.com> wrote in message
Haven't looked at most of the site but does it say anything negative about Bush or other conservative ideas.

Yes, David Horowitz, the editor, does run articles critical of Bush and
Republicans. I would need to be able to read your mind as to what you mean
by "other conservative ideas".
Does it say anything good about liberal ideas or people?

About actual liberals? Yes. As a group, I think he regards them as easily
mislead.

About the Communists/Socialists/Progressives/"Liberals"/Leftists?

Individually, yes. As a group, no. And he does not regard them as mislead.

David Horowitz says he was born into a CPUSA family, a "red diaper baby",
who pushed the CPUSA agenda up until around 30, I think, when he realized
that the Black Panthers, who he was being ordered to support, had very
probably murdered someone he knew, and the reason for the murder was to
prevent her from talking about the crimes they were committing.