I have been reading this newsgroup for quite a while and starting posting a
few weeks ago. I am reminded of my college Corporation Finance professor.
He said, many years ago, that the biggest roadblock to success is the term
"Ya, but". He went on to explain that whenever someone says these words, it
means that they have heard what you had to say, but they are going to
totally disregard your words, your expertise, your experience to continue on
the same path that had them asking for advice in the first place.

In so many posts here, I have seen many people repeat the exact same advice.
For the most part, when many people respond in the same way, you might be
able to ascertain that the advice is worth a consideration at least. Then
comes the "Ya But". Then the posters go on to explain until they are blue
in the face why what they are saying is at very minimum, reasonable. But
the "Ya But-ers" continue with the notion that no one here is enlightened
enough to understand the depth of their problem. I can only imagine that
the same scenario happens at therapy, or when they are talking with their
SO's.

So, my quick, uneducated reaction is this. These people thrive on crisis.
They don't *want* a solution to their problems because it makes them have to
come up with new ones. Crisis keeps them the center of attention which is
what they really desire.

Comments?
Momma

"Everyboysmomma" <noway@maine.rr.com> wrote in message
news:FlqQc.111353$bp1.37056@twister.nyroc.rr.com.. . Comments?

Who could disagree with that without being accused of saying, "ya but?"

Ted

"Everyboysmomma" <noway@maine.rr.com> wrote in message
news:FlqQc.111353$bp1.37056@twister.nyroc.rr.com.. . Comments?

Who could disagree with that without being accused of saying, "ya but?"

Ted

"Everyboysmomma" <noway@maine.rr.com> wrote in message
news:FlqQc.111353$bp1.37056@twister.nyroc.rr.com.. .

*snip*
So, my quick, uneducated reaction is this. These people thrive on crisis. They don't *want* a solution to their problems because it makes them have
to come up with new ones. Crisis keeps them the center of attention which is what they really desire. Comments? Momma

I agree with you that people roadblock themselves.

I am also of the firm belief that (at least in the US) people are prettymuch
where they *want* to be in life.

"Everyboysmomma" <noway@maine.rr.com> wrote in message
news:FlqQc.111353$bp1.37056@twister.nyroc.rr.com.. .

*snip*
So, my quick, uneducated reaction is this. These people thrive on crisis. They don't *want* a solution to their problems because it makes them have
to come up with new ones. Crisis keeps them the center of attention which is what they really desire. Comments? Momma

I agree with you that people roadblock themselves.

I am also of the firm belief that (at least in the US) people are prettymuch
where they *want* to be in life.

Everyboysmomma wrote:
I have been reading this newsgroup for quite a while and starting posting a few weeks ago. I am reminded of my college Corporation Finance professor. He said, many years ago, that the biggest roadblock to success is the term "Ya, but". He went on to explain that whenever someone says these words, it means that they have heard what you had to say, but they are going to totally disregard your words, your expertise, your experience to continue on the same path that had them asking for advice in the first place. In so many posts here, I have seen many people repeat the exact same advice. For the most part, when many people respond in the same way, you might be able to ascertain that the advice is worth a consideration at least. Then comes the "Ya But". Then the posters go on to explain until they are blue in the face why what they are saying is at very minimum, reasonable. But the "Ya But-ers" continue with the notion that no one here is enlightened enough to understand the depth of their problem. I can only imagine that the same scenario happens at therapy, or when they are talking with their SO's. So, my quick, uneducated reaction is this. These people thrive on crisis. They don't *want* a solution to their problems because it makes them have to come up with new ones. Crisis keeps them the center of attention which is what they really desire. Comments? Momma

We used to call it a "defence mechanism". People are reluctant to change,
until they are forced to. It is like crossing a stream by stepping on
rocks. We feel safer standing on one rock in the middle of the stream than
in between two rocks, so we don't move. We can be stuck in the middle of
the stream, frozen by fear. I prefer this explanation to thriving on one
crisis after another, which isn't really fun at all.

Doug.
--
ICQ Number 178748389. Registered Linux User No. 277548.
Part of being sane, is being a little bit crazy.
-Janet Long.

Everyboysmomma wrote:
I have been reading this newsgroup for quite a while and starting posting a few weeks ago. I am reminded of my college Corporation Finance professor. He said, many years ago, that the biggest roadblock to success is the term "Ya, but". He went on to explain that whenever someone says these words, it means that they have heard what you had to say, but they are going to totally disregard your words, your expertise, your experience to continue on the same path that had them asking for advice in the first place. In so many posts here, I have seen many people repeat the exact same advice. For the most part, when many people respond in the same way, you might be able to ascertain that the advice is worth a consideration at least. Then comes the "Ya But". Then the posters go on to explain until they are blue in the face why what they are saying is at very minimum, reasonable. But the "Ya But-ers" continue with the notion that no one here is enlightened enough to understand the depth of their problem. I can only imagine that the same scenario happens at therapy, or when they are talking with their SO's. So, my quick, uneducated reaction is this. These people thrive on crisis. They don't *want* a solution to their problems because it makes them have to come up with new ones. Crisis keeps them the center of attention which is what they really desire. Comments? Momma

We used to call it a "defence mechanism". People are reluctant to change,
until they are forced to. It is like crossing a stream by stepping on
rocks. We feel safer standing on one rock in the middle of the stream than
in between two rocks, so we don't move. We can be stuck in the middle of
the stream, frozen by fear. I prefer this explanation to thriving on one
crisis after another, which isn't really fun at all.

Doug.
--
ICQ Number 178748389. Registered Linux User No. 277548.
Part of being sane, is being a little bit crazy.
-Janet Long.

Seeker wrote: "Everyboysmomma" <noway@maine.rr.com> wrote in message news:FlqQc.111353$bp1.37056@twister.nyroc.rr.com.. . Comments? Who could disagree with that without being accused of saying, "ya but?" Ted

Hehehe.. this from the 'King of Yabbut'

<GRIN>
Cal~

Seeker wrote: "Everyboysmomma" <noway@maine.rr.com> wrote in message news:FlqQc.111353$bp1.37056@twister.nyroc.rr.com.. . Comments? Who could disagree with that without being accused of saying, "ya but?" Ted

Hehehe.. this from the 'King of Yabbut'

<GRIN>
Cal~

On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 13:11:01 GMT, Everyboysmomma
<noway@maine.rr.com> wrote: I have been reading this newsgroup for quite a while and starting posting a few weeks ago. I am reminded of my college Corporation Finance professor. He said, many years ago, that the biggest roadblock to success is the term "Ya, but". He went on to explain that whenever someone says these words, it means that they have heard what you had to say, but they are going to totally disregard your words, your expertise, your experience to continue on the same path that had them asking for advice in the first place. In so many posts here, I have seen many people repeat the exact same advice. For the most part, when many people respond in the same way, you might be able to ascertain that the advice is worth a consideration at least. Then comes the "Ya But". Then the posters go on to explain until they are blue in the face why what they are saying is at very minimum, reasonable. But the "Ya But-ers" continue with the notion that no one here is enlightened enough to understand the depth of their problem. I can only imagine that the same scenario happens at therapy, or when they are talking with their SO's. So, my quick, uneducated reaction is this. These people thrive on crisis. They don't *want* a solution to their problems because it makes them have to come up with new ones. Crisis keeps them the center of attention which is what they really desire. Comments?

Ya, but...

:)

-Tony

PS: All joking aside, I think you hit the nail right on the head.

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 13:11:01 GMT, Everyboysmomma
<noway@maine.rr.com> wrote: I have been reading this newsgroup for quite a while and starting posting a few weeks ago. I am reminded of my college Corporation Finance professor. He said, many years ago, that the biggest roadblock to success is the term "Ya, but". He went on to explain that whenever someone says these words, it means that they have heard what you had to say, but they are going to totally disregard your words, your expertise, your experience to continue on the same path that had them asking for advice in the first place. In so many posts here, I have seen many people repeat the exact same advice. For the most part, when many people respond in the same way, you might be able to ascertain that the advice is worth a consideration at least. Then comes the "Ya But". Then the posters go on to explain until they are blue in the face why what they are saying is at very minimum, reasonable. But the "Ya But-ers" continue with the notion that no one here is enlightened enough to understand the depth of their problem. I can only imagine that the same scenario happens at therapy, or when they are talking with their SO's. So, my quick, uneducated reaction is this. These people thrive on crisis. They don't *want* a solution to their problems because it makes them have to come up with new ones. Crisis keeps them the center of attention which is what they really desire. Comments?

Ya, but...

:)

-Tony

PS: All joking aside, I think you hit the nail right on the head.

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

On Thu, 5 Aug 2004 11:25:18 -0400, _calinda_
<calindasinclair@hotmail.com> wrote: Seeker wrote: "Everyboysmomma" <noway@maine.rr.com> wrote in message news:FlqQc.111353$bp1.37056@twister.nyroc.rr.com.. . Comments? Who could disagree with that without being accused of saying, "ya but?" Ted Hehehe.. this from the 'King of Yabbut'

The King of Yabbut with a tack in his butt. :)

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

On Thu, 5 Aug 2004 11:25:18 -0400, _calinda_
<calindasinclair@hotmail.com> wrote: Seeker wrote: "Everyboysmomma" <noway@maine.rr.com> wrote in message news:FlqQc.111353$bp1.37056@twister.nyroc.rr.com.. . Comments? Who could disagree with that without being accused of saying, "ya but?" Ted Hehehe.. this from the 'King of Yabbut'

The King of Yabbut with a tack in his butt. :)

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

Everyboysmomma <noway@maine.rr.com> wrote:
I have been reading this newsgroup for quite a while and starting posting a few weeks ago. I am reminded of my college Corporation Finance professor. He said, many years ago, that the biggest roadblock to success is the term "Ya, but". He went on to explain that whenever someone says these words, it means that they have heard what you had to say, but they are going to totally disregard your words, your expertise, your experience to continue on the same path that had them asking for advice in the first place.

Here we call it refusing to take the tack out of your butt. :-)

However, I do think that sometimes people do the "ya but" thing for a
while in the process of getting ready to change. I have worked with
domestic violence victims for a long time (and they are the "ya but"
*queens*) and some do eventually change. The key is to put in your two
cents when it makes sense and not get attached to the outcome. If and
when they are ready, the stuff you and others have been telling them
will be available to them.

Other, of course, have no intention of ever changing and just like the
"ya but" game. When it become clear to me that someone is doing this, I
decline to play any further.

Everyboysmomma <noway@maine.rr.com> wrote:
I have been reading this newsgroup for quite a while and starting posting a few weeks ago. I am reminded of my college Corporation Finance professor. He said, many years ago, that the biggest roadblock to success is the term "Ya, but". He went on to explain that whenever someone says these words, it means that they have heard what you had to say, but they are going to totally disregard your words, your expertise, your experience to continue on the same path that had them asking for advice in the first place.

Here we call it refusing to take the tack out of your butt. :-)

However, I do think that sometimes people do the "ya but" thing for a
while in the process of getting ready to change. I have worked with
domestic violence victims for a long time (and they are the "ya but"
*queens*) and some do eventually change. The key is to put in your two
cents when it makes sense and not get attached to the outcome. If and
when they are ready, the stuff you and others have been telling them
will be available to them.

Other, of course, have no intention of ever changing and just like the
"ya but" game. When it become clear to me that someone is doing this, I
decline to play any further.

"Everyboysmomma" <noway@maine.rr.com> wrote in message news:<FlqQc.111353$bp1.37056@twister.nyroc.rr.com>... I have been reading this newsgroup for quite a while and starting posting a few weeks ago. I am reminded of my college Corporation Finance professor. He said, many years ago, that the biggest roadblock to success is the term "Ya, but". He went on to explain that whenever someone says these words, it means that they have heard what you had to say, but they are going to totally disregard your words, your expertise, your experience to continue on the same path that had them asking for advice in the first place. In so many posts here, I have seen many people repeat the exact same advice. For the most part, when many people respond in the same way, you might be able to ascertain that the advice is worth a consideration at least. Then comes the "Ya But". Then the posters go on to explain until they are blue in the face why what they are saying is at very minimum, reasonable. But the "Ya But-ers" continue with the notion that no one here is enlightened enough to understand the depth of their problem. I can only imagine that the same scenario happens at therapy, or when they are talking with their SO's. So, my quick, uneducated reaction is this. These people thrive on crisis. They don't *want* a solution to their problems because it makes them have to come up with new ones. Crisis keeps them the center of attention which is what they really desire.

Absolutely. This can be one of those "Games People Play." You can spot
when it's purely a game (versus stubborn self-denial) when people run
out of suggestions, and the OP reacts with what seems almost to be
glee (Ted is known to do this quite often).

The payoff is not just attention, but it's the satisfaction of
stumping everyone. For Ted there's also an element of "I'm so special"
going on: "my problems are so unique and difficult, none of you can
figure out a solution!"

For many people, this game is merely a pasttime, a way of dealing with
boredom. I've pointed this out frequently to Ted. I really believe
he's thoroughly bored with his life, and that's the root cause of his
troubles.

jen

"Everyboysmomma" <noway@maine.rr.com> wrote in message news:<FlqQc.111353$bp1.37056@twister.nyroc.rr.com>... I have been reading this newsgroup for quite a while and starting posting a few weeks ago. I am reminded of my college Corporation Finance professor. He said, many years ago, that the biggest roadblock to success is the term "Ya, but". He went on to explain that whenever someone says these words, it means that they have heard what you had to say, but they are going to totally disregard your words, your expertise, your experience to continue on the same path that had them asking for advice in the first place. In so many posts here, I have seen many people repeat the exact same advice. For the most part, when many people respond in the same way, you might be able to ascertain that the advice is worth a consideration at least. Then comes the "Ya But". Then the posters go on to explain until they are blue in the face why what they are saying is at very minimum, reasonable. But the "Ya But-ers" continue with the notion that no one here is enlightened enough to understand the depth of their problem. I can only imagine that the same scenario happens at therapy, or when they are talking with their SO's. So, my quick, uneducated reaction is this. These people thrive on crisis. They don't *want* a solution to their problems because it makes them have to come up with new ones. Crisis keeps them the center of attention which is what they really desire.

Absolutely. This can be one of those "Games People Play." You can spot
when it's purely a game (versus stubborn self-denial) when people run
out of suggestions, and the OP reacts with what seems almost to be
glee (Ted is known to do this quite often).

The payoff is not just attention, but it's the satisfaction of
stumping everyone. For Ted there's also an element of "I'm so special"
going on: "my problems are so unique and difficult, none of you can
figure out a solution!"

For many people, this game is merely a pasttime, a way of dealing with
boredom. I've pointed this out frequently to Ted. I really believe
he's thoroughly bored with his life, and that's the root cause of his
troubles.

jen

shinypenny wrote: "Everyboysmomma" <noway@maine.rr.com> wrote in message news:<FlqQc.111353$bp1.37056@twister.nyroc.rr.com>... I have been reading this newsgroup for quite a while and starting posting
a few weeks ago. I am reminded of my college Corporation Finance
professor. He said, many years ago, that the biggest roadblock to success is the
term "Ya, but". He went on to explain that whenever someone says these words,
it means that they have heard what you had to say, but they are going to totally disregard your words, your expertise, your experience to continue
on the same path that had them asking for advice in the first place. In so many posts here, I have seen many people repeat the exact same
advice. For the most part, when many people respond in the same way, you might be able to ascertain that the advice is worth a consideration at least.
Then comes the "Ya But". Then the posters go on to explain until they are
blue in the face why what they are saying is at very minimum, reasonable. But the "Ya But-ers" continue with the notion that no one here is
enlightened enough to understand the depth of their problem. I can only imagine that the same scenario happens at therapy, or when they are talking with their SO's. So, my quick, uneducated reaction is this. These people thrive on
crisis. They don't *want* a solution to their problems because it makes them have
to come up with new ones. Crisis keeps them the center of attention which
is what they really desire. Absolutely. This can be one of those "Games People Play." You can spot when it's purely a game (versus stubborn self-denial) when people run out of suggestions, and the OP reacts with what seems almost to be glee (Ted is known to do this quite often). The payoff is not just attention, but it's the satisfaction of stumping everyone. For Ted there's also an element of "I'm so special" going on: "my problems are so unique and difficult, none of you can figure out a solution!" For many people, this game is merely a pasttime, a way of dealing with boredom. I've pointed this out frequently to Ted. I really believe he's thoroughly bored with his life, and that's the root cause of his troubles. jen

Then the solution is for him to change his life, n'est pas?

shinypenny wrote: "Everyboysmomma" <noway@maine.rr.com> wrote in message news:<FlqQc.111353$bp1.37056@twister.nyroc.rr.com>... I have been reading this newsgroup for quite a while and starting posting
a few weeks ago. I am reminded of my college Corporation Finance
professor. He said, many years ago, that the biggest roadblock to success is the
term "Ya, but". He went on to explain that whenever someone says these words,
it means that they have heard what you had to say, but they are going to totally disregard your words, your expertise, your experience to continue
on the same path that had them asking for advice in the first place. In so many posts here, I have seen many people repeat the exact same
advice. For the most part, when many people respond in the same way, you might be able to ascertain that the advice is worth a consideration at least.
Then comes the "Ya But". Then the posters go on to explain until they are
blue in the face why what they are saying is at very minimum, reasonable. But the "Ya But-ers" continue with the notion that no one here is
enlightened enough to understand the depth of their problem. I can only imagine that the same scenario happens at therapy, or when they are talking with their SO's. So, my quick, uneducated reaction is this. These people thrive on
crisis. They don't *want* a solution to their problems because it makes them have
to come up with new ones. Crisis keeps them the center of attention which
is what they really desire. Absolutely. This can be one of those "Games People Play." You can spot when it's purely a game (versus stubborn self-denial) when people run out of suggestions, and the OP reacts with what seems almost to be glee (Ted is known to do this quite often). The payoff is not just attention, but it's the satisfaction of stumping everyone. For Ted there's also an element of "I'm so special" going on: "my problems are so unique and difficult, none of you can figure out a solution!" For many people, this game is merely a pasttime, a way of dealing with boredom. I've pointed this out frequently to Ted. I really believe he's thoroughly bored with his life, and that's the root cause of his troubles. jen

Then the solution is for him to change his life, n'est pas?

"Everyboysmomma" <noway@maine.rr.com> wrote in message
news:FlqQc.111353$bp1.37056@twister.nyroc.rr.com.. . I have been reading this newsgroup for quite a while and starting posting
a few weeks ago. I am reminded of my college Corporation Finance professor. He said, many years ago, that the biggest roadblock to success is the term "Ya, but". He went on to explain that whenever someone says these words,
it means that they have heard what you had to say, but they are going to totally disregard your words, your expertise, your experience to continue
on the same path that had them asking for advice in the first place. In so many posts here, I have seen many people repeat the exact same
advice. For the most part, when many people respond in the same way, you might be able to ascertain that the advice is worth a consideration at least. Then comes the "Ya But". Then the posters go on to explain until they are blue in the face why what they are saying is at very minimum, reasonable. But the "Ya But-ers" continue with the notion that no one here is enlightened enough to understand the depth of their problem. I can only imagine that the same scenario happens at therapy, or when they are talking with their SO's. So, my quick, uneducated reaction is this. These people thrive on crisis. They don't *want* a solution to their problems because it makes them have
to come up with new ones. Crisis keeps them the center of attention which is what they really desire. Comments? Momma

Ok..so what you are all saying is that it is not just me then......

"Everyboysmomma" <noway@maine.rr.com> wrote in message
news:FlqQc.111353$bp1.37056@twister.nyroc.rr.com.. . I have been reading this newsgroup for quite a while and starting posting
a few weeks ago. I am reminded of my college Corporation Finance professor. He said, many years ago, that the biggest roadblock to success is the term "Ya, but". He went on to explain that whenever someone says these words,
it means that they have heard what you had to say, but they are going to totally disregard your words, your expertise, your experience to continue
on the same path that had them asking for advice in the first place. In so many posts here, I have seen many people repeat the exact same
advice. For the most part, when many people respond in the same way, you might be able to ascertain that the advice is worth a consideration at least. Then comes the "Ya But". Then the posters go on to explain until they are blue in the face why what they are saying is at very minimum, reasonable. But the "Ya But-ers" continue with the notion that no one here is enlightened enough to understand the depth of their problem. I can only imagine that the same scenario happens at therapy, or when they are talking with their SO's. So, my quick, uneducated reaction is this. These people thrive on crisis. They don't *want* a solution to their problems because it makes them have
to come up with new ones. Crisis keeps them the center of attention which is what they really desire. Comments? Momma

Ok..so what you are all saying is that it is not just me then......

"Everyboysmomma" <noway@maine.rr.com> wrote in message
news:FlqQc.111353$bp1.37056@twister.nyroc.rr.com.. . I have been reading this newsgroup for quite a while and starting posting
a few weeks ago. I am reminded of my college Corporation Finance professor. He said, many years ago, that the biggest roadblock to success is the term "Ya, but". He went on to explain that whenever someone says these words,
it means that they have heard what you had to say, but they are going to totally disregard your words, your expertise, your experience to continue
on the same path that had them asking for advice in the first place. In so many posts here, I have seen many people repeat the exact same
advice. For the most part, when many people respond in the same way, you might be able to ascertain that the advice is worth a consideration at least. Then comes the "Ya But". Then the posters go on to explain until they are blue in the face why what they are saying is at very minimum, reasonable. But the "Ya But-ers" continue with the notion that no one here is enlightened enough to understand the depth of their problem. I can only imagine that the same scenario happens at therapy, or when they are talking with their SO's. So, my quick, uneducated reaction is this. These people thrive on crisis. They don't *want* a solution to their problems because it makes them have
to come up with new ones. Crisis keeps them the center of attention which is what they really desire. Comments? Momma

HALLELUIAH, AMEN SISTER, amen :))))

"Everyboysmomma" <noway@maine.rr.com> wrote in message
news:FlqQc.111353$bp1.37056@twister.nyroc.rr.com.. . I have been reading this newsgroup for quite a while and starting posting
a few weeks ago. I am reminded of my college Corporation Finance professor. He said, many years ago, that the biggest roadblock to success is the term "Ya, but". He went on to explain that whenever someone says these words,
it means that they have heard what you had to say, but they are going to totally disregard your words, your expertise, your experience to continue
on the same path that had them asking for advice in the first place. In so many posts here, I have seen many people repeat the exact same
advice. For the most part, when many people respond in the same way, you might be able to ascertain that the advice is worth a consideration at least. Then comes the "Ya But". Then the posters go on to explain until they are blue in the face why what they are saying is at very minimum, reasonable. But the "Ya But-ers" continue with the notion that no one here is enlightened enough to understand the depth of their problem. I can only imagine that the same scenario happens at therapy, or when they are talking with their SO's. So, my quick, uneducated reaction is this. These people thrive on crisis. They don't *want* a solution to their problems because it makes them have
to come up with new ones. Crisis keeps them the center of attention which is what they really desire. Comments? Momma

HALLELUIAH, AMEN SISTER, amen :))))

"Everyboysmomma" <noway@maine.rr.com> wrote in message news:<FlqQc.111353$bp1.37056@twister.nyroc.rr.com>... I have been reading this newsgroup for quite a while and starting posting a few weeks ago. I am reminded of my college Corporation Finance professor. He said, many years ago, that the biggest roadblock to success is the term "Ya, but". He went on to explain that whenever someone says these words, it means that they have heard what you had to say, but they are going to totally disregard your words, your expertise, your experience to continue on the same path that had them asking for advice in the first place. In so many posts here, I have seen many people repeat the exact same advice. For the most part, when many people respond in the same way, you might be able to ascertain that the advice is worth a consideration at least. Then comes the "Ya But". Then the posters go on to explain until they are blue in the face why what they are saying is at very minimum, reasonable. But the "Ya But-ers" continue with the notion that no one here is enlightened enough to understand the depth of their problem. I can only imagine that the same scenario happens at therapy, or when they are talking with their SO's. So, my quick, uneducated reaction is this. These people thrive on crisis. They don't *want* a solution to their problems because it makes them have to come up with new ones. Crisis keeps them the center of attention which is what they really desire. Comments? Momma

This group has taken on several personas over the years. The
atmosphere in here has ebbed and flowed. 5,6, maybe 7 years ago, it
was a place where many of became friends and formed two other groups
as a result. Several of us met in person, some of us have exchanged
Christmas gifts, had internet "grab bags" and truly bonded.

Today I think that the group has become more of a place where strong
minded people with strong wills exchange their views rather than offer
advice. I'm not saying that no one here offers advice, in fact some
advice in here in my opinion is darned good advice (especially for
free!) However, I find that there are more stubborn and close minded
folks than I have met in the past. I think that stubbornness prevents
friendships from being formed, hence the atmosphere of this group
being a kind of a hang out and let it all hang out. I absolutely do
not feel safe enough in this group to let it all hang out due to much
judgmentalism, I told you so's and my way or the highway type of
thinking.

As far as the ya but's: I don't feel comfortable coming up with why
others say it, but I find myself saying it when I don't feel
understood. I don't know if I agree with your synopsis about thriving
on drama or crisis I think you said.

When I try to explain to my husband how I feel and he responds with a
solution, I'll try to say, yeah, that is a good solution, but I wasn't
looking for a solution, I was trying to tell you how I felt. This
conversation could escalate, it could go well or I could just walk
away feeling more frustrated. We have all three outomces regularly
:-) I'm a talker and my husband is a solver of my talking. So...I
often find the ya but to be more about explaining further so that a
solution, an analysis or an interpretation doesn't occur.

"Everyboysmomma" <noway@maine.rr.com> wrote in message news:<FlqQc.111353$bp1.37056@twister.nyroc.rr.com>... I have been reading this newsgroup for quite a while and starting posting a few weeks ago. I am reminded of my college Corporation Finance professor. He said, many years ago, that the biggest roadblock to success is the term "Ya, but". He went on to explain that whenever someone says these words, it means that they have heard what you had to say, but they are going to totally disregard your words, your expertise, your experience to continue on the same path that had them asking for advice in the first place. In so many posts here, I have seen many people repeat the exact same advice. For the most part, when many people respond in the same way, you might be able to ascertain that the advice is worth a consideration at least. Then comes the "Ya But". Then the posters go on to explain until they are blue in the face why what they are saying is at very minimum, reasonable. But the "Ya But-ers" continue with the notion that no one here is enlightened enough to understand the depth of their problem. I can only imagine that the same scenario happens at therapy, or when they are talking with their SO's. So, my quick, uneducated reaction is this. These people thrive on crisis. They don't *want* a solution to their problems because it makes them have to come up with new ones. Crisis keeps them the center of attention which is what they really desire. Comments? Momma

This group has taken on several personas over the years. The
atmosphere in here has ebbed and flowed. 5,6, maybe 7 years ago, it
was a place where many of became friends and formed two other groups
as a result. Several of us met in person, some of us have exchanged
Christmas gifts, had internet "grab bags" and truly bonded.

Today I think that the group has become more of a place where strong
minded people with strong wills exchange their views rather than offer
advice. I'm not saying that no one here offers advice, in fact some
advice in here in my opinion is darned good advice (especially for
free!) However, I find that there are more stubborn and close minded
folks than I have met in the past. I think that stubbornness prevents
friendships from being formed, hence the atmosphere of this group
being a kind of a hang out and let it all hang out. I absolutely do
not feel safe enough in this group to let it all hang out due to much
judgmentalism, I told you so's and my way or the highway type of
thinking.

As far as the ya but's: I don't feel comfortable coming up with why
others say it, but I find myself saying it when I don't feel
understood. I don't know if I agree with your synopsis about thriving
on drama or crisis I think you said.

When I try to explain to my husband how I feel and he responds with a
solution, I'll try to say, yeah, that is a good solution, but I wasn't
looking for a solution, I was trying to tell you how I felt. This
conversation could escalate, it could go well or I could just walk
away feeling more frustrated. We have all three outomces regularly
:-) I'm a talker and my husband is a solver of my talking. So...I
often find the ya but to be more about explaining further so that a
solution, an analysis or an interpretation doesn't occur.

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0408051723.7b7795b0@posting.google.c om...

This group has taken on several personas over the years. The atmosphere in here has ebbed and flowed. 5,6, maybe 7 years ago, it was a place where many of became friends and formed two other groups as a result. Several of us met in person, some of us have exchanged Christmas gifts, had internet "grab bags" and truly bonded.

I'm glad this group isn't like that anymore. It was still like that somewhat
when I first came around (99), and it was annoying sometimes. I'd get into a
debate with one person, and four others would prettymuch jump down your
throat because you were arguing with their "friend".

I've never been fond of "clique" groups. I'm a regular of this group
(amongst several other online communities under a different name), but I'm
no more special than any newbie. Yea, some people "know" me and know my
style, and that can be an advantage (like if someone new says to me "you
just hate children" most regulars could say "no, that's not correct"). But I
really didn't like the cliqui-ness that was here years ago. It made anyone
with an opposing viewpoint feel very unwelcome. I'm glad it's gone.

That being said, I do really like some of the people on here, and would not
mind meeting them if the situation arose. I'd also throw an ASM party if I
won the lottery :) But cliqui-ness... no, never liked that.

Today I think that the group has become more of a place where strong minded people with strong wills exchange their views rather than offer advice.


I don't see it that way. Some good pieces of advice come from strong wills
and viewpoints.



I'm not saying that no one here offers advice, in fact some advice in here in my opinion is darned good advice (especially for free!) However, I find that there are more stubborn and close minded folks than I have met in the past. I think that stubbornness prevents friendships from being formed, hence the atmosphere of this group being a kind of a hang out and let it all hang out. I absolutely do not feel safe enough in this group to let it all hang out due to much judgmentalism, I told you so's and my way or the highway type of thinking.

Well, you may not get the hug you want, but I'll bet you get some good
advice. Trouble is, the good advice may not be what you want to hear.

JWB

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0408051723.7b7795b0@posting.google.c om...

This group has taken on several personas over the years. The atmosphere in here has ebbed and flowed. 5,6, maybe 7 years ago, it was a place where many of became friends and formed two other groups as a result. Several of us met in person, some of us have exchanged Christmas gifts, had internet "grab bags" and truly bonded.

I'm glad this group isn't like that anymore. It was still like that somewhat
when I first came around (99), and it was annoying sometimes. I'd get into a
debate with one person, and four others would prettymuch jump down your
throat because you were arguing with their "friend".

I've never been fond of "clique" groups. I'm a regular of this group
(amongst several other online communities under a different name), but I'm
no more special than any newbie. Yea, some people "know" me and know my
style, and that can be an advantage (like if someone new says to me "you
just hate children" most regulars could say "no, that's not correct"). But I
really didn't like the cliqui-ness that was here years ago. It made anyone
with an opposing viewpoint feel very unwelcome. I'm glad it's gone.

That being said, I do really like some of the people on here, and would not
mind meeting them if the situation arose. I'd also throw an ASM party if I
won the lottery :) But cliqui-ness... no, never liked that.

Today I think that the group has become more of a place where strong minded people with strong wills exchange their views rather than offer advice.


I don't see it that way. Some good pieces of advice come from strong wills
and viewpoints.



I'm not saying that no one here offers advice, in fact some advice in here in my opinion is darned good advice (especially for free!) However, I find that there are more stubborn and close minded folks than I have met in the past. I think that stubbornness prevents friendships from being formed, hence the atmosphere of this group being a kind of a hang out and let it all hang out. I absolutely do not feel safe enough in this group to let it all hang out due to much judgmentalism, I told you so's and my way or the highway type of thinking.

Well, you may not get the hug you want, but I'll bet you get some good
advice. Trouble is, the good advice may not be what you want to hear.

JWB

"Emma Anne" <mbjq@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1gi1moc.8qqmbb1yvxarlN%mbjq@earthlink.net... Everyboysmomma <noway@maine.rr.com> wrote: I have been reading this newsgroup for quite a while and starting
posting a few weeks ago. I am reminded of my college Corporation Finance
professor. He said, many years ago, that the biggest roadblock to success is the
term "Ya, but". He went on to explain that whenever someone says these
words, it means that they have heard what you had to say, but they are going to totally disregard your words, your expertise, your experience to
continue on the same path that had them asking for advice in the first place. Here we call it refusing to take the tack out of your butt. :-) However, I do think that sometimes people do the "ya but" thing for a while in the process of getting ready to change.

That's my impression, too. People don't often make immediate changes to
their thinking or behaviour. It happens in small increments. I see a lot of
Yah Butting coming from people who haven't quite reached the place where
what is being said to them can be truly understood. There's too much else
that has to be understood first.


I have worked with domestic violence victims for a long time (and they are the "ya but" *queens*) and some do eventually change. The key is to put in your two cents when it makes sense and not get attached to the outcome. If and when they are ready, the stuff you and others have been telling them will be available to them. Other, of course, have no intention of ever changing and just like the "ya but" game. When it become clear to me that someone is doing this, I decline to play any further.

Ditto. Except I usually get annoyed and say something rude first..... ;)


Tai

"Emma Anne" <mbjq@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1gi1moc.8qqmbb1yvxarlN%mbjq@earthlink.net... Everyboysmomma <noway@maine.rr.com> wrote: I have been reading this newsgroup for quite a while and starting
posting a few weeks ago. I am reminded of my college Corporation Finance
professor. He said, many years ago, that the biggest roadblock to success is the
term "Ya, but". He went on to explain that whenever someone says these
words, it means that they have heard what you had to say, but they are going to totally disregard your words, your expertise, your experience to
continue on the same path that had them asking for advice in the first place. Here we call it refusing to take the tack out of your butt. :-) However, I do think that sometimes people do the "ya but" thing for a while in the process of getting ready to change.

That's my impression, too. People don't often make immediate changes to
their thinking or behaviour. It happens in small increments. I see a lot of
Yah Butting coming from people who haven't quite reached the place where
what is being said to them can be truly understood. There's too much else
that has to be understood first.


I have worked with domestic violence victims for a long time (and they are the "ya but" *queens*) and some do eventually change. The key is to put in your two cents when it makes sense and not get attached to the outcome. If and when they are ready, the stuff you and others have been telling them will be available to them. Other, of course, have no intention of ever changing and just like the "ya but" game. When it become clear to me that someone is doing this, I decline to play any further.

Ditto. Except I usually get annoyed and say something rude first..... ;)


Tai

"Bill in Co." <surly8curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<kLvQc.10086$9Y6.5106@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink. net>... shinypenny wrote: "Everyboysmomma" <noway@maine.rr.com> wrote in message news:<FlqQc.111353$bp1.37056@twister.nyroc.rr.com>... I have been reading this newsgroup for quite a while and starting posting a few weeks ago. I am reminded of my college Corporation Finance professor. He said, many years ago, that the biggest roadblock to success is the term "Ya, but". He went on to explain that whenever someone says these words, it means that they have heard what you had to say, but they are going to totally disregard your words, your expertise, your experience to continue on the same path that had them asking for advice in the first place. In so many posts here, I have seen many people repeat the exact same advice. For the most part, when many people respond in the same way, you might be able to ascertain that the advice is worth a consideration at least. Then comes the "Ya But". Then the posters go on to explain until they are blue in the face why what they are saying is at very minimum, reasonable. But the "Ya But-ers" continue with the notion that no one here is enlightened enough to understand the depth of their problem. I can only imagine that the same scenario happens at therapy, or when they are talking with their SO's. So, my quick, uneducated reaction is this. These people thrive on crisis. They don't *want* a solution to their problems because it makes them have to come up with new ones. Crisis keeps them the center of attention which is what they really desire. Absolutely. This can be one of those "Games People Play." You can spot when it's purely a game (versus stubborn self-denial) when people run out of suggestions, and the OP reacts with what seems almost to be glee (Ted is known to do this quite often). The payoff is not just attention, but it's the satisfaction of stumping everyone. For Ted there's also an element of "I'm so special" going on: "my problems are so unique and difficult, none of you can figure out a solution!" For many people, this game is merely a pasttime, a way of dealing with boredom. I've pointed this out frequently to Ted. I really believe he's thoroughly bored with his life, and that's the root cause of his troubles. jen Then the solution is for him to change his life, n'est pas?

Que vous incite à nous penser parle de Ted ? Je pensais à vous !

"Bill in Co." <surly8curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<kLvQc.10086$9Y6.5106@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink. net>... shinypenny wrote: "Everyboysmomma" <noway@maine.rr.com> wrote in message news:<FlqQc.111353$bp1.37056@twister.nyroc.rr.com>... I have been reading this newsgroup for quite a while and starting posting a few weeks ago. I am reminded of my college Corporation Finance professor. He said, many years ago, that the biggest roadblock to success is the term "Ya, but". He went on to explain that whenever someone says these words, it means that they have heard what you had to say, but they are going to totally disregard your words, your expertise, your experience to continue on the same path that had them asking for advice in the first place. In so many posts here, I have seen many people repeat the exact same advice. For the most part, when many people respond in the same way, you might be able to ascertain that the advice is worth a consideration at least. Then comes the "Ya But". Then the posters go on to explain until they are blue in the face why what they are saying is at very minimum, reasonable. But the "Ya But-ers" continue with the notion that no one here is enlightened enough to understand the depth of their problem. I can only imagine that the same scenario happens at therapy, or when they are talking with their SO's. So, my quick, uneducated reaction is this. These people thrive on crisis. They don't *want* a solution to their problems because it makes them have to come up with new ones. Crisis keeps them the center of attention which is what they really desire. Absolutely. This can be one of those "Games People Play." You can spot when it's purely a game (versus stubborn self-denial) when people run out of suggestions, and the OP reacts with what seems almost to be glee (Ted is known to do this quite often). The payoff is not just attention, but it's the satisfaction of stumping everyone. For Ted there's also an element of "I'm so special" going on: "my problems are so unique and difficult, none of you can figure out a solution!" For many people, this game is merely a pasttime, a way of dealing with boredom. I've pointed this out frequently to Ted. I really believe he's thoroughly bored with his life, and that's the root cause of his troubles. jen Then the solution is for him to change his life, n'est pas?

Que vous incite à nous penser parle de Ted ? Je pensais à vous !

In article <2ngbutFja46U1@uni-berlin.de>, Tai <tainuiti@yahoo.com>
wrote:
That's my impression, too. People don't often make immediate changes to their thinking or behaviour. It happens in small increments. I see a lot of Yah Butting coming from people who haven't quite reached the place where what is being said to them can be truly understood. There's too much else that has to be understood first.

I don't think it has a thing to do with understanding.
Deep emotional issues are not resolved be rational arguments.

Ted

In article <2ngbutFja46U1@uni-berlin.de>, Tai <tainuiti@yahoo.com>
wrote:
That's my impression, too. People don't often make immediate changes to their thinking or behaviour. It happens in small increments. I see a lot of Yah Butting coming from people who haven't quite reached the place where what is being said to them can be truly understood. There's too much else that has to be understood first.

I don't think it has a thing to do with understanding.
Deep emotional issues are not resolved be rational arguments.

Ted

In article <3754f0b3.0408051934.4a32fb6c@posting.google.com>, Caren
<caren50@msn.com> wrote:
Que vous incite à nous penser parle de Ted ? Je pensais à vous !

Très bien!

Mais, Jen est exact. Je m'ennuie.
Avec mon travail. Avec mon épouse. Probablement quelques autres
choses aussi.

Ted

In article <3754f0b3.0408051934.4a32fb6c@posting.google.com>, Caren
<caren50@msn.com> wrote:
Que vous incite à nous penser parle de Ted ? Je pensais à vous !

Très bien!

Mais, Jen est exact. Je m'ennuie.
Avec mon travail. Avec mon épouse. Probablement quelques autres
choses aussi.

Ted

"Seeker" <Tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:050820042240427532%Tedds212removethis@yahoo.c om... In article <2ngbutFja46U1@uni-berlin.de>, Tai <tainuiti@yahoo.com> wrote: That's my impression, too. People don't often make immediate changes to their thinking or behaviour. It happens in small increments. I see a lot
of Yah Butting coming from people who haven't quite reached the place where what is being said to them can be truly understood. There's too much
else that has to be understood first. I don't think it has a thing to do with understanding.

It doesn't surprise me that you think that.
Deep emotional issues are not resolved be rational arguments.

They are resolved by understanding why we do the things we do and working on
ways to change our behaviour when we are ready to want to. You can make your
statement as often as *you* want to but it won't change my opinion because
mine is based on my own experience.

You don't value change more than you value the status quo. Until and if that
alters, neither will you.

tai

"Seeker" <Tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:050820042240427532%Tedds212removethis@yahoo.c om... In article <2ngbutFja46U1@uni-berlin.de>, Tai <tainuiti@yahoo.com> wrote: That's my impression, too. People don't often make immediate changes to their thinking or behaviour. It happens in small increments. I see a lot
of Yah Butting coming from people who haven't quite reached the place where what is being said to them can be truly understood. There's too much
else that has to be understood first. I don't think it has a thing to do with understanding.

It doesn't surprise me that you think that.
Deep emotional issues are not resolved be rational arguments.

They are resolved by understanding why we do the things we do and working on
ways to change our behaviour when we are ready to want to. You can make your
statement as often as *you* want to but it won't change my opinion because
mine is based on my own experience.

You don't value change more than you value the status quo. Until and if that
alters, neither will you.

tai

Caren wrote: "Bill in Co." <surly8curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<kLvQc.10086$9Y6.5106@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink. net>... shinypenny wrote: "Everyboysmomma" <noway@maine.rr.com> wrote in message news:<FlqQc.111353$bp1.37056@twister.nyroc.rr.com>...> I have been reading this newsgroup for quite a while and starting
posting> a few weeks ago. I am reminded of my college Corporation Finance professor.> He said, many years ago, that the biggest roadblock to success is the
term> "Ya, but". He went on to explain that whenever someone says these
words,> it means that they have heard what you had to say, but they are going
to> totally disregard your words, your expertise, your experience to
continue> on the same path that had them asking for advice in the first place.>> In so many posts here, I have seen many people repeat the exact same advice.> For the most part, when many people respond in the same way, you might
be> able to ascertain that the advice is worth a consideration at least.
Then> comes the "Ya But". Then the posters go on to explain until they are
blue> in the face why what they are saying is at very minimum, reasonable.
But> the "Ya But-ers" continue with the notion that no one here is
enlightened> enough to understand the depth of their problem. I can only imagine
that> the same scenario happens at therapy, or when they are talking with
their> SO's.>> So, my quick, uneducated reaction is this. These people thrive on
crisis.> They don't *want* a solution to their problems because it makes them
have> to come up with new ones. Crisis keeps them the center of attention
which>is what they really desire. Absolutely. This can be one of those "Games People Play." You can spot when it's purely a game (versus stubborn self-denial) when people run out of suggestions, and the OP reacts with what seems almost to be glee (Ted is known to do this quite often). The payoff is not just attention, but it's the satisfaction of stumping everyone. For Ted there's also an element of "I'm so special" going on: "my problems are so unique and difficult, none of you can figure out a solution!" For many people, this game is merely a pasttime, a way of dealing with boredom. I've pointed this out frequently to Ted. I really believe he's thoroughly bored with his life, and that's the root cause of his troubles. jen Then the solution is for him to change his life, n'est pas? Que vous incite à nous penser parle de Ted ? Je pensais à vous !

Nah, Ted first. We're talking about Ted. (Besides which, you didn't
answer all my other posts, so there)!

Caren wrote: "Bill in Co." <surly8curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<kLvQc.10086$9Y6.5106@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink. net>... shinypenny wrote: "Everyboysmomma" <noway@maine.rr.com> wrote in message news:<FlqQc.111353$bp1.37056@twister.nyroc.rr.com>...> I have been reading this newsgroup for quite a while and starting
posting> a few weeks ago. I am reminded of my college Corporation Finance professor.> He said, many years ago, that the biggest roadblock to success is the
term> "Ya, but". He went on to explain that whenever someone says these
words,> it means that they have heard what you had to say, but they are going
to> totally disregard your words, your expertise, your experience to
continue> on the same path that had them asking for advice in the first place.>> In so many posts here, I have seen many people repeat the exact same advice.> For the most part, when many people respond in the same way, you might
be> able to ascertain that the advice is worth a consideration at least.
Then> comes the "Ya But". Then the posters go on to explain until they are
blue> in the face why what they are saying is at very minimum, reasonable.
But> the "Ya But-ers" continue with the notion that no one here is
enlightened> enough to understand the depth of their problem. I can only imagine
that> the same scenario happens at therapy, or when they are talking with
their> SO's.>> So, my quick, uneducated reaction is this. These people thrive on
crisis.> They don't *want* a solution to their problems because it makes them
have> to come up with new ones. Crisis keeps them the center of attention
which>is what they really desire. Absolutely. This can be one of those "Games People Play." You can spot when it's purely a game (versus stubborn self-denial) when people run out of suggestions, and the OP reacts with what seems almost to be glee (Ted is known to do this quite often). The payoff is not just attention, but it's the satisfaction of stumping everyone. For Ted there's also an element of "I'm so special" going on: "my problems are so unique and difficult, none of you can figure out a solution!" For many people, this game is merely a pasttime, a way of dealing with boredom. I've pointed this out frequently to Ted. I really believe he's thoroughly bored with his life, and that's the root cause of his troubles. jen Then the solution is for him to change his life, n'est pas? Que vous incite à nous penser parle de Ted ? Je pensais à vous !

Nah, Ted first. We're talking about Ted. (Besides which, you didn't
answer all my other posts, so there)!

"Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2ngbutFja46U1@uni-berlin.de... That's my impression, too. People don't often make immediate changes to their thinking or behaviour. It happens in small increments. I see a lot
of Yah Butting coming from people who haven't quite reached the place where what is being said to them can be truly understood. There's too much else that has to be understood first.

Another comment on this. Sometimes the required change is, for all
practical purposes, all or nothing -- there are no small increments
possible. Or, even if that isn't the case, it seems enough so that it might
as well be.

Ted

"Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2ngbutFja46U1@uni-berlin.de... That's my impression, too. People don't often make immediate changes to their thinking or behaviour. It happens in small increments. I see a lot
of Yah Butting coming from people who haven't quite reached the place where what is being said to them can be truly understood. There's too much else that has to be understood first.

Another comment on this. Sometimes the required change is, for all
practical purposes, all or nothing -- there are no small increments
possible. Or, even if that isn't the case, it seems enough so that it might
as well be.

Ted

"JWB" <bigtommbtyjwb543@servo.com actually, my e-mail is jwb3333 at excite dot com> wrote in message news:<%BBQc.84133$4h7.10105660@twister.nyc.rr.com>... "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message news:3754f0b3.0408051723.7b7795b0@posting.google.c om... This group has taken on several personas over the years. The atmosphere in here has ebbed and flowed. 5,6, maybe 7 years ago, it was a place where many of became friends and formed two other groups as a result. Several of us met in person, some of us have exchanged Christmas gifts, had internet "grab bags" and truly bonded. I'm glad this group isn't like that anymore. It was still like that somewhat when I first came around (99), and it was annoying sometimes. I'd get into a debate with one person, and four others would prettymuch jump down your throat because you were arguing with their "friend". I've never been fond of "clique" groups. I'm a regular of this group (amongst several other online communities under a different name), but I'm no more special than any newbie. Yea, some people "know" me and know my style, and that can be an advantage (like if someone new says to me "you just hate children" most regulars could say "no, that's not correct"). But I really didn't like the cliqui-ness that was here years ago. It made anyone with an opposing viewpoint feel very unwelcome. I'm glad it's gone. That being said, I do really like some of the people on here, and would not mind meeting them if the situation arose. I'd also throw an ASM party if I won the lottery :) But cliqui-ness... no, never liked that. Today I think that the group has become more of a place where strong minded people with strong wills exchange their views rather than offer advice. I don't see it that way. Some good pieces of advice come from strong wills and viewpoints. I'm not saying that no one here offers advice, in fact some advice in here in my opinion is darned good advice (especially for free!) However, I find that there are more stubborn and close minded folks than I have met in the past. I think that stubbornness prevents friendships from being formed, hence the atmosphere of this group being a kind of a hang out and let it all hang out. I absolutely do not feel safe enough in this group to let it all hang out due to much judgmentalism, I told you so's and my way or the highway type of thinking. Well, you may not get the hug you want, but I'll bet you get some good advice. Trouble is, the good advice may not be what you want to hear. JWB

I always appreciate good advice. However having grown up with being
spoken to as if I was a peice of garbage, to me how advice is
presented is as important as the advice that is presented. Just like
when I look at studies and who funded the study, I look at advice and
who offered the advice. There are many in here who I do respect.

I don't need hugs in here- I do appreciate respect though.

"JWB" <bigtommbtyjwb543@servo.com actually, my e-mail is jwb3333 at excite dot com> wrote in message news:<%BBQc.84133$4h7.10105660@twister.nyc.rr.com>... "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message news:3754f0b3.0408051723.7b7795b0@posting.google.c om... This group has taken on several personas over the years. The atmosphere in here has ebbed and flowed. 5,6, maybe 7 years ago, it was a place where many of became friends and formed two other groups as a result. Several of us met in person, some of us have exchanged Christmas gifts, had internet "grab bags" and truly bonded. I'm glad this group isn't like that anymore. It was still like that somewhat when I first came around (99), and it was annoying sometimes. I'd get into a debate with one person, and four others would prettymuch jump down your throat because you were arguing with their "friend". I've never been fond of "clique" groups. I'm a regular of this group (amongst several other online communities under a different name), but I'm no more special than any newbie. Yea, some people "know" me and know my style, and that can be an advantage (like if someone new says to me "you just hate children" most regulars could say "no, that's not correct"). But I really didn't like the cliqui-ness that was here years ago. It made anyone with an opposing viewpoint feel very unwelcome. I'm glad it's gone. That being said, I do really like some of the people on here, and would not mind meeting them if the situation arose. I'd also throw an ASM party if I won the lottery :) But cliqui-ness... no, never liked that. Today I think that the group has become more of a place where strong minded people with strong wills exchange their views rather than offer advice. I don't see it that way. Some good pieces of advice come from strong wills and viewpoints. I'm not saying that no one here offers advice, in fact some advice in here in my opinion is darned good advice (especially for free!) However, I find that there are more stubborn and close minded folks than I have met in the past. I think that stubbornness prevents friendships from being formed, hence the atmosphere of this group being a kind of a hang out and let it all hang out. I absolutely do not feel safe enough in this group to let it all hang out due to much judgmentalism, I told you so's and my way or the highway type of thinking. Well, you may not get the hug you want, but I'll bet you get some good advice. Trouble is, the good advice may not be what you want to hear. JWB

I always appreciate good advice. However having grown up with being
spoken to as if I was a peice of garbage, to me how advice is
presented is as important as the advice that is presented. Just like
when I look at studies and who funded the study, I look at advice and
who offered the advice. There are many in here who I do respect.

I don't need hugs in here- I do appreciate respect though.

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0408060759.57d65aec@posting.google.c om... "JWB" <bigtommbtyjwb543@servo.com actually, my e-mail is jwb3333 at excite
dot com> wrote in message
news:<%BBQc.84133$4h7.10105660@twister.nyc.rr.com>... "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message news:3754f0b3.0408051723.7b7795b0@posting.google.c om... This group has taken on several personas over the years. The atmosphere in here has ebbed and flowed. 5,6, maybe 7 years ago, it was a place where many of became friends and formed two other groups as a result. Several of us met in person, some of us have exchanged Christmas gifts, had internet "grab bags" and truly bonded. I'm glad this group isn't like that anymore. It was still like that
somewhat when I first came around (99), and it was annoying sometimes. I'd get
into a debate with one person, and four others would prettymuch jump down your throat because you were arguing with their "friend". I've never been fond of "clique" groups. I'm a regular of this group (amongst several other online communities under a different name), but
I'm no more special than any newbie. Yea, some people "know" me and know my style, and that can be an advantage (like if someone new says to me "you just hate children" most regulars could say "no, that's not correct").
But I really didn't like the cliqui-ness that was here years ago. It made
anyone with an opposing viewpoint feel very unwelcome. I'm glad it's gone. That being said, I do really like some of the people on here, and would
not mind meeting them if the situation arose. I'd also throw an ASM party if
I won the lottery :) But cliqui-ness... no, never liked that. Today I think that the group has become more of a place where strong minded people with strong wills exchange their views rather than offer advice. I don't see it that way. Some good pieces of advice come from strong
wills and viewpoints. I'm not saying that no one here offers advice, in fact some advice in here in my opinion is darned good advice (especially for free!) However, I find that there are more stubborn and close minded folks than I have met in the past. I think that stubbornness prevents friendships from being formed, hence the atmosphere of this group being a kind of a hang out and let it all hang out. I absolutely do not feel safe enough in this group to let it all hang out due to much judgmentalism, I told you so's and my way or the highway type of thinking. Well, you may not get the hug you want, but I'll bet you get some good advice. Trouble is, the good advice may not be what you want to hear. JWB I always appreciate good advice. However having grown up with being spoken to as if I was a peice of garbage, to me how advice is presented is as important as the advice that is presented. Just like when I look at studies and who funded the study, I look at advice and who offered the advice. There are many in here who I do respect. I don't need hugs in here- I do appreciate respect though.

which I think you get. From most of us, anyway :)

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0408060759.57d65aec@posting.google.c om... "JWB" <bigtommbtyjwb543@servo.com actually, my e-mail is jwb3333 at excite
dot com> wrote in message
news:<%BBQc.84133$4h7.10105660@twister.nyc.rr.com>... "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message news:3754f0b3.0408051723.7b7795b0@posting.google.c om... This group has taken on several personas over the years. The atmosphere in here has ebbed and flowed. 5,6, maybe 7 years ago, it was a place where many of became friends and formed two other groups as a result. Several of us met in person, some of us have exchanged Christmas gifts, had internet "grab bags" and truly bonded. I'm glad this group isn't like that anymore. It was still like that
somewhat when I first came around (99), and it was annoying sometimes. I'd get
into a debate with one person, and four others would prettymuch jump down your throat because you were arguing with their "friend". I've never been fond of "clique" groups. I'm a regular of this group (amongst several other online communities under a different name), but
I'm no more special than any newbie. Yea, some people "know" me and know my style, and that can be an advantage (like if someone new says to me "you just hate children" most regulars could say "no, that's not correct").
But I really didn't like the cliqui-ness that was here years ago. It made
anyone with an opposing viewpoint feel very unwelcome. I'm glad it's gone. That being said, I do really like some of the people on here, and would
not mind meeting them if the situation arose. I'd also throw an ASM party if
I won the lottery :) But cliqui-ness... no, never liked that. Today I think that the group has become more of a place where strong minded people with strong wills exchange their views rather than offer advice. I don't see it that way. Some good pieces of advice come from strong
wills and viewpoints. I'm not saying that no one here offers advice, in fact some advice in here in my opinion is darned good advice (especially for free!) However, I find that there are more stubborn and close minded folks than I have met in the past. I think that stubbornness prevents friendships from being formed, hence the atmosphere of this group being a kind of a hang out and let it all hang out. I absolutely do not feel safe enough in this group to let it all hang out due to much judgmentalism, I told you so's and my way or the highway type of thinking. Well, you may not get the hug you want, but I'll bet you get some good advice. Trouble is, the good advice may not be what you want to hear. JWB I always appreciate good advice. However having grown up with being spoken to as if I was a peice of garbage, to me how advice is presented is as important as the advice that is presented. Just like when I look at studies and who funded the study, I look at advice and who offered the advice. There are many in here who I do respect. I don't need hugs in here- I do appreciate respect though.

which I think you get. From most of us, anyway :)

Caren wrote: "JWB" <bigtommbtyjwb543@servo.com actually, my e-mail is jwb3333 at excite dot com> wrote in message news:<%BBQc.84133$4h7.10105660@twister.nyc.rr.com>... "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message news:3754f0b3.0408051723.7b7795b0@posting.google.c om... This group has taken on several personas over the years. The atmosphere in here has ebbed and flowed. 5,6, maybe 7 years ago, it was a place where many of became friends and formed two other groups as a result. Several of us met in person, some of us have exchanged Christmas gifts, had internet "grab bags" and truly bonded. I'm glad this group isn't like that anymore. It was still like that
somewhat when I first came around (99), and it was annoying sometimes. I'd get
into a debate with one person, and four others would prettymuch jump down your throat because you were arguing with their "friend". I've never been fond of "clique" groups. I'm a regular of this group (amongst several other online communities under a different name), but
I'm no more special than any newbie. Yea, some people "know" me and know my style, and that can be an advantage (like if someone new says to me "you just hate children" most regulars could say "no, that's not correct").
But I really didn't like the cliqui-ness that was here years ago. It made
anyone with an opposing viewpoint feel very unwelcome. I'm glad it's gone. That being said, I do really like some of the people on here, and would
not mind meeting them if the situation arose. I'd also throw an ASM party if
I won the lottery :) But cliqui-ness... no, never liked that. Today I think that the group has become more of a place where strong minded people with strong wills exchange their views rather than offer advice. I don't see it that way. Some good pieces of advice come from strong
wills and viewpoints. I'm not saying that no one here offers advice, in fact some advice in here in my opinion is darned good advice (especially for free!) However, I find that there are more stubborn and close minded folks than I have met in the past. I think that stubbornness prevents friendships from being formed, hence the atmosphere of this group being a kind of a hang out and let it all hang out. I absolutely do not feel safe enough in this group to let it all hang out due to much judgmentalism, I told you so's and my way or the highway type of thinking. Well, you may not get the hug you want, but I'll bet you get some good advice. Trouble is, the good advice may not be what you want to hear. JWB I always appreciate good advice. However having grown up with being spoken to as if I was a peice of garbage, to me how advice is presented is as important as the advice that is presented. Just like when I look at studies and who funded the study, I look at advice and who offered the advice. There are many in here who I do respect. I don't need hugs in here- I do appreciate respect though.

I like debating with you Caren, at least on the ones you respond to. :-)

Caren wrote: "JWB" <bigtommbtyjwb543@servo.com actually, my e-mail is jwb3333 at excite dot com> wrote in message news:<%BBQc.84133$4h7.10105660@twister.nyc.rr.com>... "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message news:3754f0b3.0408051723.7b7795b0@posting.google.c om... This group has taken on several personas over the years. The atmosphere in here has ebbed and flowed. 5,6, maybe 7 years ago, it was a place where many of became friends and formed two other groups as a result. Several of us met in person, some of us have exchanged Christmas gifts, had internet "grab bags" and truly bonded. I'm glad this group isn't like that anymore. It was still like that
somewhat when I first came around (99), and it was annoying sometimes. I'd get
into a debate with one person, and four others would prettymuch jump down your throat because you were arguing with their "friend". I've never been fond of "clique" groups. I'm a regular of this group (amongst several other online communities under a different name), but
I'm no more special than any newbie. Yea, some people "know" me and know my style, and that can be an advantage (like if someone new says to me "you just hate children" most regulars could say "no, that's not correct").
But I really didn't like the cliqui-ness that was here years ago. It made
anyone with an opposing viewpoint feel very unwelcome. I'm glad it's gone. That being said, I do really like some of the people on here, and would
not mind meeting them if the situation arose. I'd also throw an ASM party if
I won the lottery :) But cliqui-ness... no, never liked that. Today I think that the group has become more of a place where strong minded people with strong wills exchange their views rather than offer advice. I don't see it that way. Some good pieces of advice come from strong
wills and viewpoints. I'm not saying that no one here offers advice, in fact some advice in here in my opinion is darned good advice (especially for free!) However, I find that there are more stubborn and close minded folks than I have met in the past. I think that stubbornness prevents friendships from being formed, hence the atmosphere of this group being a kind of a hang out and let it all hang out. I absolutely do not feel safe enough in this group to let it all hang out due to much judgmentalism, I told you so's and my way or the highway type of thinking. Well, you may not get the hug you want, but I'll bet you get some good advice. Trouble is, the good advice may not be what you want to hear. JWB I always appreciate good advice. However having grown up with being spoken to as if I was a peice of garbage, to me how advice is presented is as important as the advice that is presented. Just like when I look at studies and who funded the study, I look at advice and who offered the advice. There are many in here who I do respect. I don't need hugs in here- I do appreciate respect though.

I like debating with you Caren, at least on the ones you respond to. :-)

Everyboysmomma wrote: I have been reading this newsgroup for quite a while and starting posting a few weeks ago. I am reminded of my college Corporation Finance professor. He said, many years ago, that the biggest roadblock to success is the term "Ya, but".

Which negates anything you've said.

He went on to explain that whenever someone says these words, it means that they have heard what you had to say, but they are going to totally disregard your words, your expertise, your experience to continue on the same path that had them asking for advice in the first place. In so many posts here, I have seen many people repeat the exact same advice. For the most part, when many people respond in the same way, you might be able to ascertain that the advice is worth a consideration at least. Then comes the "Ya But". Then the posters go on to explain until they are blue in the face why what they are saying is at very minimum, reasonable. But the "Ya But-ers" continue with the notion that no one here is enlightened enough to understand the depth of their problem. I can only imagine that the same scenario happens at therapy, or when they are talking with their SO's. So, my quick, uneducated reaction is this. These people thrive on crisis. They don't *want* a solution to their problems because it makes them have to come up with new ones. Crisis keeps them the center of attention which is what they really desire. Comments? Momma

You gotta reach your personal rock bottom before it occurs to
you that there's another way.

Problem is, the deeper you get, the harder it is to extricate
yourself.

Momma, to me your point is seminal.

You may think I'm missing the point, but...
ever notice how we switch sides to align ourselves with
whoever we identify with at the time? It's all me. Me. Me.
Doesn't matter how I stick out, as long as I stick out.

And I see a slightly different but related idea in
these words (yes I know I keep posting the
same quotes):

"Addictions are desperate strategies by which
we attempt to avoid the unimaginable terror of
non-existence. ~ John Firman, 'The Primal Wound')

- Michaela

--

"Most People are more comfortable with old problems
than with new solutions."

Everyboysmomma wrote: I have been reading this newsgroup for quite a while and starting posting a few weeks ago. I am reminded of my college Corporation Finance professor. He said, many years ago, that the biggest roadblock to success is the term "Ya, but".

Which negates anything you've said.

He went on to explain that whenever someone says these words, it means that they have heard what you had to say, but they are going to totally disregard your words, your expertise, your experience to continue on the same path that had them asking for advice in the first place. In so many posts here, I have seen many people repeat the exact same advice. For the most part, when many people respond in the same way, you might be able to ascertain that the advice is worth a consideration at least. Then comes the "Ya But". Then the posters go on to explain until they are blue in the face why what they are saying is at very minimum, reasonable. But the "Ya But-ers" continue with the notion that no one here is enlightened enough to understand the depth of their problem. I can only imagine that the same scenario happens at therapy, or when they are talking with their SO's. So, my quick, uneducated reaction is this. These people thrive on crisis. They don't *want* a solution to their problems because it makes them have to come up with new ones. Crisis keeps them the center of attention which is what they really desire. Comments? Momma

You gotta reach your personal rock bottom before it occurs to
you that there's another way.

Problem is, the deeper you get, the harder it is to extricate
yourself.

Momma, to me your point is seminal.

You may think I'm missing the point, but...
ever notice how we switch sides to align ourselves with
whoever we identify with at the time? It's all me. Me. Me.
Doesn't matter how I stick out, as long as I stick out.

And I see a slightly different but related idea in
these words (yes I know I keep posting the
same quotes):

"Addictions are desperate strategies by which
we attempt to avoid the unimaginable terror of
non-existence. ~ John Firman, 'The Primal Wound')

- Michaela

--

"Most People are more comfortable with old problems
than with new solutions."