On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:45:03 GMT, Jack C Lipton
<cupasoup@peElMe.cx> wrote:

<Snip>
And this makes me realize that one of the problems in my own marriage is that my wife can't cope with how far I vary from the "ideal husband". Hence the need for SSRI antidepressants.

Now I get it! All of Jack's problems were caused by Ward and June
Cleaver!!!!

And now you're not getting enough "beaver" :)))

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

Tony Miller wrote: Jack C Lipton wrote: And this makes me realize that one of the problems in my own marriage is that my wife can't cope with how far I vary from the "ideal husband". Hence the need for SSRI antidepressants. Now I get it! All of Jack's problems were caused by Ward and June Cleaver!!!!

Look, it struck me that for some people (of my generation)
who grew up in an abusive house-hold that these kinds of
shows would provide them unreasonable expectations of how
a *REAL* marriage would (or, more accurately, "should")
work.

All of the marriages we saw on TV were scripted and
"optimal" in a fairy-tale kind of way. I've argued
over in SSG about how Fairy Tales with the "Happily
Ever After..." mindset can provide unreasonable
expectations. We never find out how much discomfort
Cinderella felt when she lost her virginity or whether
she preferred missionary or doggie.

In some ways a lot of this was trying to impress upon
us, as impressionable children, how things "should"
be.

And, for those in abusive house-holds, it seems to
me that getting hold of the "fantasy" and doing the
best to maintain the "image" (kind of like from
"Keeping Up Appearances") that one has an optimal
marriage may explain some of the conflicts in what
passes for culture in the US.

Talk about driving schizophrenia...

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
"While life is too short to be taken seriously, it also lasts
for far too long to spend it with a stick up your ***." - me

"Jack C Lipton" <cupasoup@peElMe.cx> wrote in message
news:slrncfvt83.g32.cupasoup@soup2nets.net.dhis.or g... Tony Miller wrote: Jack C Lipton wrote: And this makes me realize that one of the problems in my own marriage is that my wife can't cope with how far I vary from the "ideal husband". Hence the need for SSRI antidepressants. Now I get it! All of Jack's problems were caused by Ward and June Cleaver!!!! Look, it struck me that for some people (of my generation) who grew up in an abusive house-hold that these kinds of shows would provide them unreasonable expectations of how a *REAL* marriage would (or, more accurately, "should") work. All of the marriages we saw on TV were scripted and "optimal" in a fairy-tale kind of way. I've argued over in SSG about how Fairy Tales with the "Happily Ever After..." mindset can provide unreasonable expectations. We never find out how much discomfort Cinderella felt when she lost her virginity or whether she preferred missionary or doggie. In some ways a lot of this was trying to impress upon us, as impressionable children, how things "should" be. And, for those in abusive house-holds, it seems to me that getting hold of the "fantasy" and doing the best to maintain the "image" (kind of like from "Keeping Up Appearances") that one has an optimal marriage may explain some of the conflicts in what passes for culture in the US. Talk about driving schizophrenia...

What is so wrong about those old shows? You had married couples who loved
each other and were happy. Surely you don't prefer more modern shows like
"Married with Children" where everyone hates everyone else in the
household?

Some of the older shows nurtured respect for family members.
I think that's something we should bring back to our culture.
The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they simply
reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive influence
they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather than the trash.
~Kimberlee



"Jack C Lipton" <cupasoup@peElMe.cx> wrote in message
news:slrncfvt83.g32.cupasoup@soup2nets.net.dhis.or g... Tony Miller wrote: Jack C Lipton wrote: And this makes me realize that one of the problems in my own marriage is that my wife can't cope with how far I vary from the "ideal husband". Hence the need for SSRI antidepressants. Now I get it! All of Jack's problems were caused by Ward and June Cleaver!!!! Look, it struck me that for some people (of my generation) who grew up in an abusive house-hold that these kinds of shows would provide them unreasonable expectations of how a *REAL* marriage would (or, more accurately, "should") work. All of the marriages we saw on TV were scripted and "optimal" in a fairy-tale kind of way. I've argued over in SSG about how Fairy Tales with the "Happily Ever After..." mindset can provide unreasonable expectations. We never find out how much discomfort Cinderella felt when she lost her virginity or whether she preferred missionary or doggie. In some ways a lot of this was trying to impress upon us, as impressionable children, how things "should" be. And, for those in abusive house-holds, it seems to me that getting hold of the "fantasy" and doing the best to maintain the "image" (kind of like from "Keeping Up Appearances") that one has an optimal marriage may explain some of the conflicts in what passes for culture in the US. Talk about driving schizophrenia... -- Jack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/ "While life is too short to be taken seriously, it also lasts for far too long to spend it with a stick up your ***." - me

Kimberlee wrote: Some of the older shows nurtured respect for family members.

Almost all of them did. Today, it's just the opposite. WHY is that?
(rhetorical Q)
I think that's something we should bring back to our culture.

Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking
realistically.
The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they
simply reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive influence they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather than the trash. ~Kimberlee

I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the pendulum
swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If so,
please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many)

"Jack C Lipton" <cupasoup@peElMe.cx> wrote in message news:slrncfvt83.g32.cupasoup@soup2nets.net.dhis.or g... Tony Miller wrote: Jack C Lipton wrote:> And this makes me realize that one of the problems in my> own marriage is that my wife can't cope with how far I> vary from the "ideal husband". Hence the need for SSRI> antidepressants. Now I get it! All of Jack's problems were caused by Ward and June Cleaver!!!! Look, it struck me that for some people (of my generation) who grew up in an abusive house-hold that these kinds of shows would provide them unreasonable expectations of how a *REAL* marriage would (or, more accurately, "should") work. All of the marriages we saw on TV were scripted and "optimal" in a fairy-tale kind of way. I've argued over in SSG about how Fairy Tales with the "Happily Ever After..." mindset can provide unreasonable expectations. We never find out how much discomfort Cinderella felt when she lost her virginity or whether she preferred missionary or doggie. In some ways a lot of this was trying to impress upon us, as impressionable children, how things "should" be. And, for those in abusive house-holds, it seems to me that getting hold of the "fantasy" and doing the best to maintain the "image" (kind of like from "Keeping Up Appearances") that one has an optimal marriage may explain some of the conflicts in what passes for culture in the US. Talk about driving schizophrenia... -- Jack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/ "While life is too short to be taken seriously, it also lasts for far too long to spend it with a stick up your ***." - me

"Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:5xcMc.12737$Qu5.12331@newsread2.news.pas.eart hlink.net... Kimberlee wrote: Some of the older shows nurtured respect for family members. Almost all of them did. Today, it's just the opposite. WHY is that? (rhetorical Q) I think that's something we should bring back to our culture. Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking realistically. The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they simply reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive
influence they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather than the
trash. ~Kimberlee I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the pendulum swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If so, please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many)


I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame.
"Jack C Lipton" <cupasoup@peElMe.cx> wrote in message news:slrncfvt83.g32.cupasoup@soup2nets.net.dhis.or g... Tony Miller wrote:> Jack C Lipton wrote:>> And this makes me realize that one of the problems in my>> own marriage is that my wife can't cope with how far I>> vary from the "ideal husband". Hence the need for SSRI>> antidepressants.>> Now I get it! All of Jack's problems were caused by> Ward and June Cleaver!!!! Look, it struck me that for some people (of my generation) who grew up in an abusive house-hold that these kinds of shows would provide them unreasonable expectations of how a *REAL* marriage would (or, more accurately, "should") work. All of the marriages we saw on TV were scripted and "optimal" in a fairy-tale kind of way. I've argued over in SSG about how Fairy Tales with the "Happily Ever After..." mindset can provide unreasonable expectations. We never find out how much discomfort Cinderella felt when she lost her virginity or whether she preferred missionary or doggie. In some ways a lot of this was trying to impress upon us, as impressionable children, how things "should" be. And, for those in abusive house-holds, it seems to me that getting hold of the "fantasy" and doing the best to maintain the "image" (kind of like from "Keeping Up Appearances") that one has an optimal marriage may explain some of the conflicts in what passes for culture in the US. Talk about driving schizophrenia... -- Jack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx |
http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/ "While life is too short to be taken seriously, it also lasts for far too long to spend it with a stick up your ***." - me

urf wrote: "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:5xcMc.12737$Qu5.12331@newsread2.news.pas.eart hlink.net... Kimberlee wrote: Some of the older shows nurtured respect for family members. Almost all of them did. Today, it's just the opposite. WHY is that? (rhetorical Q) I think that's something we should bring back to our culture. Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking realistically. The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they
simply reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive
influence they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather than the
trash. ~Kimberlee I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the pendulum swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If so, please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many) I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame.

Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It To
Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to
children in the episodes), and stuff like that.

Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children".

If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is considered
acceptable, I don't know what does.

"Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<sQzMc.11959$mL5.2099@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink. net>... urf wrote: "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:5xcMc.12737$Qu5.12331@newsread2.news.pas.eart hlink.net... Kimberlee wrote:> Some of the older shows nurtured respect for family members. Almost all of them did. Today, it's just the opposite. WHY is that? (rhetorical Q)> I think that's something we should bring back to our culture. Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking realistically.> The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they simply> reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive influence> they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather than the trash.> ~Kimberlee I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the pendulum swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If so, please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many) I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame. Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It To Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to children in the episodes), and stuff like that. Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children". If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is considered acceptable, I don't know what does.

It doesn't mean you have to watch it simply because it's on. 26 years
ago, I raised my son allowing him to watch pbs and a few other shows
on other stations until he got older. It's the same with my daughter.
Not only that, we have talked and talk about shows and commercials
and all that jazz. My children know that commercials are full of crap
and at an early age, both knew that whatever they were selling to kids
was a lot smaller when they saw it in the store :-)

You see Bill, times are going to change, but parenting can still be
done the way you want it to be done. Yes, it is more challenging
however, it can be done.

"Back in my day" my best friend was the daughter of a multi
millionaire. She had everything on the planet and I was envious all
of the time. My mother constantly told me,"we can't afford that". I
do the same with my kids. The younger one now is on the "but Carly's
mom lets her see that movie." And just like my mom, I say, "and your
mom does not let you see that movie." I also throw in from time to
time, "Carly's mom lets her eat dead cow." That usually shuts her up
:-)

When my son was little, when he misbehaved I'd tell him that I was
going to take him to McDonalds and make him eat there :-))

None of us watch Married with Children, Bill. However, I have no
interest in watching Father Knows Best, unless I have some pot to
smoke :-))

"Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<sQzMc.11959$mL5.2099@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink. net>... urf wrote: "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:5xcMc.12737$Qu5.12331@newsread2.news.pas.eart hlink.net... Kimberlee wrote:> Some of the older shows nurtured respect for family members. Almost all of them did. Today, it's just the opposite. WHY is that? (rhetorical Q)> I think that's something we should bring back to our culture. Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking realistically.> The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they simply> reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive influence> they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather than the trash.> ~Kimberlee I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the pendulum swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If so, please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many) I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame. Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It To Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to children in the episodes), and stuff like that. Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children". If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is considered acceptable, I don't know what does.

It doesn't mean you have to watch it simply because it's on. 26 years
ago, I raised my son allowing him to watch pbs and a few other shows
on other stations until he got older. It's the same with my daughter.
Not only that, we have talked and talk about shows and commercials
and all that jazz. My children know that commercials are full of crap
and at an early age, both knew that whatever they were selling to kids
was a lot smaller when they saw it in the store :-)

You see Bill, times are going to change, but parenting can still be
done the way you want it to be done. Yes, it is more challenging
however, it can be done.

"Back in my day" my best friend was the daughter of a multi
millionaire. She had everything on the planet and I was envious all
of the time. My mother constantly told me,"we can't afford that". I
do the same with my kids. The younger one now is on the "but Carly's
mom lets her see that movie." And just like my mom, I say, "and your
mom does not let you see that movie." I also throw in from time to
time, "Carly's mom lets her eat dead cow." That usually shuts her up
:-)

When my son was little, when he misbehaved I'd tell him that I was
going to take him to McDonalds and make him eat there :-))

None of us watch Married with Children, Bill. However, I have no
interest in watching Father Knows Best, unless I have some pot to
smoke :-))

Caren wrote: "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<sQzMc.11959$mL5.2099@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink. net>... urf wrote: "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:5xcMc.12737$Qu5.12331@newsread2.news.pas.eart hlink.net...> Kimberlee wrote:>> Some of the older shows nurtured respect for family members.>> Almost all of them did. Today, it's just the opposite. WHY is
that?> (rhetorical Q)>>> I think that's something we should bring back to our culture.>> Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking> realistically.>>> The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they>> simply reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive>> influence they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather
than the trash.>> ~Kimberlee>> I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the
pendulum> swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If
so,> please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many) I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame. Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It
To Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to children in the episodes), and stuff like that. Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children". If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is
considered acceptable, I don't know what does. It doesn't mean you have to watch it simply because it's on. 26 years ago, I raised my son allowing him to watch pbs and a few other shows on other stations until he got older. It's the same with my daughter. Not only that, we have talked and talk about shows and commercials and all that jazz. My children know that commercials are full of crap and at an early age, both knew that whatever they were selling to kids was a lot smaller when they saw it in the store :-) You see Bill, times are going to change, but parenting can still be done the way you want it to be done. Yes, it is more challenging however, it can be done.

But WHY should it be more challenging? And WHY is it more challenging?
(Did you ever stop to think about that)?? It's enough to depress the hell
out of anyone. You (apparently) just calmly accept it - carte blanche?

Well, yeah, everyone apparently does, or it wouldn't be this way, now would
it? So what message is that sending? (rhetorical Q)

Caren wrote: "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<sQzMc.11959$mL5.2099@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink. net>... urf wrote: "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:5xcMc.12737$Qu5.12331@newsread2.news.pas.eart hlink.net...> Kimberlee wrote:>> Some of the older shows nurtured respect for family members.>> Almost all of them did. Today, it's just the opposite. WHY is
that?> (rhetorical Q)>>> I think that's something we should bring back to our culture.>> Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking> realistically.>>> The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they>> simply reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive>> influence they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather
than the trash.>> ~Kimberlee>> I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the
pendulum> swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If
so,> please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many) I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame. Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It
To Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to children in the episodes), and stuff like that. Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children". If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is
considered acceptable, I don't know what does. It doesn't mean you have to watch it simply because it's on. 26 years ago, I raised my son allowing him to watch pbs and a few other shows on other stations until he got older. It's the same with my daughter. Not only that, we have talked and talk about shows and commercials and all that jazz. My children know that commercials are full of crap and at an early age, both knew that whatever they were selling to kids was a lot smaller when they saw it in the store :-) You see Bill, times are going to change, but parenting can still be done the way you want it to be done. Yes, it is more challenging however, it can be done.

But WHY should it be more challenging? And WHY is it more challenging?
(Did you ever stop to think about that)?? It's enough to depress the hell
out of anyone. You (apparently) just calmly accept it - carte blanche?

Well, yeah, everyone apparently does, or it wouldn't be this way, now would
it? So what message is that sending? (rhetorical Q)

"Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:a3HMc.14097$Qu5.13612@newsread2.news.pas.eart hlink.net... But WHY should it be more challenging? And WHY is it more challenging?

The challenges are certainly *different* than they were way back when. For
instance, it is much less of a challenge to keep your kids alive. A lot of
them used to die of things like diarrhea and strep throat.

"Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:a3HMc.14097$Qu5.13612@newsread2.news.pas.eart hlink.net... But WHY should it be more challenging? And WHY is it more challenging?

The challenges are certainly *different* than they were way back when. For
instance, it is much less of a challenge to keep your kids alive. A lot of
them used to die of things like diarrhea and strep throat.

"Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:sQzMc.11959$mL5.2099@newsread1.news.pas.earth link.net... urf wrote: "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:5xcMc.12737$Qu5.12331@newsread2.news.pas.eart hlink.net... Kimberlee wrote:> Some of the older shows nurtured respect for family members. Almost all of them did. Today, it's just the opposite. WHY is
that? (rhetorical Q)> I think that's something we should bring back to our culture. Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking realistically.> The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they simply> reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive influence> they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather than the trash.> ~Kimberlee I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the
pendulum swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If
so, please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many) I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame. Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It To Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to children in the episodes), and stuff like that. Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children". If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is
considered acceptable, I don't know what does.

Speaking now of the pendulum, we are only telling each other of our
observations
of the world. Without a doubt in my mind it is in the natural order of
things to have
a balance. That balance can only be had with the to and fro changes that are
represented as the swing of the pendulum.

The sun follows the rain, the yin is brother to the yang, night and day come
to us
always as do the seasons even life and death...... it goes on and on.
Nothing stays the same
and nothing lasts forever. Not even your bad humor.

"Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:sQzMc.11959$mL5.2099@newsread1.news.pas.earth link.net... urf wrote: "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:5xcMc.12737$Qu5.12331@newsread2.news.pas.eart hlink.net... Kimberlee wrote:> Some of the older shows nurtured respect for family members. Almost all of them did. Today, it's just the opposite. WHY is
that? (rhetorical Q)> I think that's something we should bring back to our culture. Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking realistically.> The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they simply> reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive influence> they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather than the trash.> ~Kimberlee I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the
pendulum swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If
so, please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many) I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame. Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It To Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to children in the episodes), and stuff like that. Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children". If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is
considered acceptable, I don't know what does.

Speaking now of the pendulum, we are only telling each other of our
observations
of the world. Without a doubt in my mind it is in the natural order of
things to have
a balance. That balance can only be had with the to and fro changes that are
represented as the swing of the pendulum.

The sun follows the rain, the yin is brother to the yang, night and day come
to us
always as do the seasons even life and death...... it goes on and on.
Nothing stays the same
and nothing lasts forever. Not even your bad humor.

Bill in Co. wrote: urf wrote: "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:5xcMc.12737$Qu5.12331@newsread2.news.pas.eart hlink.net... Kimberlee wrote:> Some of the older shows nurtured respect for family members. Almost all of them did. Today, it's just the opposite. WHY is
that? (rhetorical Q)> I think that's something we should bring back to our culture. Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking realistically.> The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they
simply> reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive
influence> they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather than the
trash.> ~Kimberlee I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the
pendulum swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If so, please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many) I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame. Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It To Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to children in the episodes), and stuff like that. Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children". If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is
considered acceptable, I don't know what does.

Nobody here wants to come out and acknowledge this?? Why is that?
Because if it is true, there is little we can do about it, or is it just
some form of denial? (I'd really like to know).

You know, it really wouldn't be the end of the world to be reflective
sometimes, and admit that we do have some real problems here for society, as
typified by the above.

Bill in Co. wrote: urf wrote: "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:5xcMc.12737$Qu5.12331@newsread2.news.pas.eart hlink.net... Kimberlee wrote:> Some of the older shows nurtured respect for family members. Almost all of them did. Today, it's just the opposite. WHY is
that? (rhetorical Q)> I think that's something we should bring back to our culture. Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking realistically.> The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they
simply> reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive
influence> they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather than the
trash.> ~Kimberlee I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the
pendulum swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If so, please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many) I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame. Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It To Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to children in the episodes), and stuff like that. Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children". If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is
considered acceptable, I don't know what does.

Nobody here wants to come out and acknowledge this?? Why is that?
Because if it is true, there is little we can do about it, or is it just
some form of denial? (I'd really like to know).

You know, it really wouldn't be the end of the world to be reflective
sometimes, and admit that we do have some real problems here for society, as
typified by the above.

"Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<sQzMc.11959$mL5.2099@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink. net>... urf wrote: "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:5xcMc.12737$Qu5.12331@newsread2.news.pas.eart hlink.net... Kimberlee wrote:> Some of the older shows nurtured respect for family members. Almost all of them did. Today, it's just the opposite. WHY is that? (rhetorical Q)> I think that's something we should bring back to our culture. Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking realistically.> The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they simply> reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive influence> they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather than the trash.> ~Kimberlee I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the pendulum swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If so, please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many) I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame. Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It To Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to children in the episodes), and stuff like that. Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children". If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is considered acceptable, I don't know what does.

I thought of you today Bill. I took my daughter to her swimming
lessons with an absoulutely adorable friend of hers. We stayed after
the lesson for a few swim sessions and I watched them play and
listened to them talk while pretending to read a book :-) They are
both a few months short of 10 and are still in that cute stage before
the heinous genes kick in.

Well, while my daughter was in her lesson, her friend and I talked. I
rubbed sun block all over her and suddenly she said, "look how fat
that part of my thigh is." If I could tell you how incredibly
muscular she is (which I told her) and how georgous and sweet she is,
I wouldn't do her justice. Her hair is golden, her skin is golden and
she has the cutest dimple in the world. She is very smart and
articulate and polite. And she thinks she is fat. This is the age
when girls start to think this kind of nonsense. And yes, it's the
way society is. However, I will say, when I was a young teenager, I
too thought I was fat (and looking at pictures, I was no where near
fat-it was about confidence.)

You keep talking about how depressing it is, how the world is, how
horrible it all is, how it used to be better. And worse, you keep
talking about how "everyone" made it this way. I take exception to
that comment. As I imagine many others will. Not all of us
contribute to some of the assenine garbage that is going on in the
world. And yes, some of us are actually trying to create change. And
it takes small steps to create change.

Have you ever thought about what you might do to help create this
change or is it easier to sit back and complain about it? Do you
volunteer anywhere? To me, volunteering to help kids is about one of
the most awesome thing that a person can do. There are buddy programs
at almost all schools, there are after school programs. You can
actually make a difference in a child's life. If many people make a
small difference with one child (just like one vote) then perhaps it
can have a positive impact on the future.

I later went to the gym. I was really disturbed by this little girl's
comment and as I was pumping away I had an idea. I walked right over
to the owner of the gym (who is rarely ever there) and asked him if
they ever thought about creating a program for kids around 8,9,10- the
age when they're too old for kindergym and too young to join the gym
and at the age of losing self esteem (especially girls). He was very
enthusiastic about it and said that he'd talk to his partner. I said
that I'd be happy to help anyone who might head a program with a
mental/emotional part for self esteem (for free).

I left the gym feeling like I attempted to make a difference. All of
us have to chip in and do our part, no matter what it is. Our kids
lack self esteem, our kids often lack parents being home, our kids
need "something" and as a society, we need to reach out and help. How
about it Bill?

"Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<sQzMc.11959$mL5.2099@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink. net>... urf wrote: "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:5xcMc.12737$Qu5.12331@newsread2.news.pas.eart hlink.net... Kimberlee wrote:> Some of the older shows nurtured respect for family members. Almost all of them did. Today, it's just the opposite. WHY is that? (rhetorical Q)> I think that's something we should bring back to our culture. Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking realistically.> The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they simply> reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive influence> they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather than the trash.> ~Kimberlee I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the pendulum swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If so, please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many) I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame. Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It To Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to children in the episodes), and stuff like that. Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children". If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is considered acceptable, I don't know what does.

I thought of you today Bill. I took my daughter to her swimming
lessons with an absoulutely adorable friend of hers. We stayed after
the lesson for a few swim sessions and I watched them play and
listened to them talk while pretending to read a book :-) They are
both a few months short of 10 and are still in that cute stage before
the heinous genes kick in.

Well, while my daughter was in her lesson, her friend and I talked. I
rubbed sun block all over her and suddenly she said, "look how fat
that part of my thigh is." If I could tell you how incredibly
muscular she is (which I told her) and how georgous and sweet she is,
I wouldn't do her justice. Her hair is golden, her skin is golden and
she has the cutest dimple in the world. She is very smart and
articulate and polite. And she thinks she is fat. This is the age
when girls start to think this kind of nonsense. And yes, it's the
way society is. However, I will say, when I was a young teenager, I
too thought I was fat (and looking at pictures, I was no where near
fat-it was about confidence.)

You keep talking about how depressing it is, how the world is, how
horrible it all is, how it used to be better. And worse, you keep
talking about how "everyone" made it this way. I take exception to
that comment. As I imagine many others will. Not all of us
contribute to some of the assenine garbage that is going on in the
world. And yes, some of us are actually trying to create change. And
it takes small steps to create change.

Have you ever thought about what you might do to help create this
change or is it easier to sit back and complain about it? Do you
volunteer anywhere? To me, volunteering to help kids is about one of
the most awesome thing that a person can do. There are buddy programs
at almost all schools, there are after school programs. You can
actually make a difference in a child's life. If many people make a
small difference with one child (just like one vote) then perhaps it
can have a positive impact on the future.

I later went to the gym. I was really disturbed by this little girl's
comment and as I was pumping away I had an idea. I walked right over
to the owner of the gym (who is rarely ever there) and asked him if
they ever thought about creating a program for kids around 8,9,10- the
age when they're too old for kindergym and too young to join the gym
and at the age of losing self esteem (especially girls). He was very
enthusiastic about it and said that he'd talk to his partner. I said
that I'd be happy to help anyone who might head a program with a
mental/emotional part for self esteem (for free).

I left the gym feeling like I attempted to make a difference. All of
us have to chip in and do our part, no matter what it is. Our kids
lack self esteem, our kids often lack parents being home, our kids
need "something" and as a society, we need to reach out and help. How
about it Bill?

Caren wrote: "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<sQzMc.11959$mL5.2099@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink. net>... urf wrote: "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:5xcMc.12737$Qu5.12331@newsread2.news.pas.eart hlink.net...> Kimberlee wrote:>> Some of the older shows nurtured respect for family members.>> Almost all of them did. Today, it's just the opposite. WHY is
that?> (rhetorical Q)>>> I think that's something we should bring back to our culture.>> Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking> realistically.>>> The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they simply>> reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive influence>> they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather than the trash.>> ~Kimberlee>> I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the
pendulum> swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If
so,> please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many) I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame. Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It
To Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to children in the episodes), and stuff like that. Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children". If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is
considered acceptable, I don't know what does. I thought of you today Bill. I took my daughter to her swimming lessons with an absoulutely adorable friend of hers. We stayed after the lesson for a few swim sessions and I watched them play and listened to them talk while pretending to read a book :-) They are both a few months short of 10 and are still in that cute stage before the heinous genes kick in. Well, while my daughter was in her lesson, her friend and I talked. I rubbed sun block all over her and suddenly she said, "look how fat that part of my thigh is." If I could tell you how incredibly muscular she is (which I told her) and how georgous and sweet she is, I wouldn't do her justice. Her hair is golden, her skin is golden and she has the cutest dimple in the world. She is very smart and articulate and polite. And she thinks she is fat. This is the age when girls start to think this kind of nonsense. And yes, it's the way society is. However, I will say, when I was a young teenager, I too thought I was fat (and looking at pictures, I was no where near fat-it was about confidence.) You keep talking about how depressing it is, how the world is, how horrible it all is, how it used to be better. And worse, you keep talking about how "everyone" made it this way. I take exception to that comment. As I imagine many others will. Not all of us contribute to some of the assenine garbage that is going on in the world. And yes, some of us are actually trying to create change. And it takes small steps to create change. Have you ever thought about what you might do to help create this change or is it easier to sit back and complain about it? Do you volunteer anywhere? To me, volunteering to help kids is about one of the most awesome thing that a person can do. There are buddy programs at almost all schools, there are after school programs. You can actually make a difference in a child's life. If many people make a small difference with one child (just like one vote) then perhaps it can have a positive impact on the future. I later went to the gym. I was really disturbed by this little girl's comment and as I was pumping away I had an idea. I walked right over to the owner of the gym (who is rarely ever there) and asked him if they ever thought about creating a program for kids around 8,9,10- the age when they're too old for kindergym and too young to join the gym and at the age of losing self esteem (especially girls). He was very enthusiastic about it and said that he'd talk to his partner. I said that I'd be happy to help anyone who might head a program with a mental/emotional part for self esteem (for free). I left the gym feeling like I attempted to make a difference. All of us have to chip in and do our part, no matter what it is. Our kids lack self esteem, our kids often lack parents being home, our kids need "something" and as a society, we need to reach out and help. How about it Bill?

You don't think I reach out to kids? (I'm a bit surprised you would say
that).

Caren wrote: "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<sQzMc.11959$mL5.2099@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink. net>... urf wrote: "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:5xcMc.12737$Qu5.12331@newsread2.news.pas.eart hlink.net...> Kimberlee wrote:>> Some of the older shows nurtured respect for family members.>> Almost all of them did. Today, it's just the opposite. WHY is
that?> (rhetorical Q)>>> I think that's something we should bring back to our culture.>> Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking> realistically.>>> The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they simply>> reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive influence>> they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather than the trash.>> ~Kimberlee>> I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the
pendulum> swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If
so,> please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many) I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame. Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It
To Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to children in the episodes), and stuff like that. Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children". If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is
considered acceptable, I don't know what does. I thought of you today Bill. I took my daughter to her swimming lessons with an absoulutely adorable friend of hers. We stayed after the lesson for a few swim sessions and I watched them play and listened to them talk while pretending to read a book :-) They are both a few months short of 10 and are still in that cute stage before the heinous genes kick in. Well, while my daughter was in her lesson, her friend and I talked. I rubbed sun block all over her and suddenly she said, "look how fat that part of my thigh is." If I could tell you how incredibly muscular she is (which I told her) and how georgous and sweet she is, I wouldn't do her justice. Her hair is golden, her skin is golden and she has the cutest dimple in the world. She is very smart and articulate and polite. And she thinks she is fat. This is the age when girls start to think this kind of nonsense. And yes, it's the way society is. However, I will say, when I was a young teenager, I too thought I was fat (and looking at pictures, I was no where near fat-it was about confidence.) You keep talking about how depressing it is, how the world is, how horrible it all is, how it used to be better. And worse, you keep talking about how "everyone" made it this way. I take exception to that comment. As I imagine many others will. Not all of us contribute to some of the assenine garbage that is going on in the world. And yes, some of us are actually trying to create change. And it takes small steps to create change. Have you ever thought about what you might do to help create this change or is it easier to sit back and complain about it? Do you volunteer anywhere? To me, volunteering to help kids is about one of the most awesome thing that a person can do. There are buddy programs at almost all schools, there are after school programs. You can actually make a difference in a child's life. If many people make a small difference with one child (just like one vote) then perhaps it can have a positive impact on the future. I later went to the gym. I was really disturbed by this little girl's comment and as I was pumping away I had an idea. I walked right over to the owner of the gym (who is rarely ever there) and asked him if they ever thought about creating a program for kids around 8,9,10- the age when they're too old for kindergym and too young to join the gym and at the age of losing self esteem (especially girls). He was very enthusiastic about it and said that he'd talk to his partner. I said that I'd be happy to help anyone who might head a program with a mental/emotional part for self esteem (for free). I left the gym feeling like I attempted to make a difference. All of us have to chip in and do our part, no matter what it is. Our kids lack self esteem, our kids often lack parents being home, our kids need "something" and as a society, we need to reach out and help. How about it Bill?

You don't think I reach out to kids? (I'm a bit surprised you would say
that).

Caren wrote: "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<sQzMc.11959$mL5.2099@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink. net>... urf wrote: "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:5xcMc.12737$Qu5.12331@newsread2.news.pas.eart hlink.net...> Kimberlee wrote:>> Some of the older shows nurtured respect for family members.>> Almost all of them did. Today, it's just the opposite. WHY is
that?> (rhetorical Q)>>> I think that's something we should bring back to our culture.>> Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking> realistically.>>> The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they>> simply reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive>> influence they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather
than the>> trash.>> ~Kimberlee>> I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the
pendulum> swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If
so,> please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many) I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame. Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It
To Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to children in the episodes), and stuff like that. Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children". If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is
considered acceptable, I don't know what does. I thought of you today Bill.................

Well, you may have thought of me, Caren, but not enough to answer my
question above! (Nor (for that matter) did anyone else). Perhaps, just
perhaps, because the answer is self evident.

Caren wrote: "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<sQzMc.11959$mL5.2099@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink. net>... urf wrote: "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:5xcMc.12737$Qu5.12331@newsread2.news.pas.eart hlink.net...> Kimberlee wrote:>> Some of the older shows nurtured respect for family members.>> Almost all of them did. Today, it's just the opposite. WHY is
that?> (rhetorical Q)>>> I think that's something we should bring back to our culture.>> Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking> realistically.>>> The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they>> simply reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive>> influence they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather
than the>> trash.>> ~Kimberlee>> I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the
pendulum> swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If
so,> please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many) I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame. Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It
To Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to children in the episodes), and stuff like that. Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children". If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is
considered acceptable, I don't know what does. I thought of you today Bill.................

Well, you may have thought of me, Caren, but not enough to answer my
question above! (Nor (for that matter) did anyone else). Perhaps, just
perhaps, because the answer is self evident.

I started this thread about Ward and June Cleaver and it quickly turned into
"Odd Role Models."
Why are they considered "odd"? Is the combination of a breadwinning father
and a homemaker mother -- which used to be standard -- now "odd"? What is
"odd" about Ward and June?


****************************
Denise Noe
Koko the Signing Gorilla says: "Fine animal gorilla."

I started this thread about Ward and June Cleaver and it quickly turned into
"Odd Role Models."
Why are they considered "odd"? Is the combination of a breadwinning father
and a homemaker mother -- which used to be standard -- now "odd"? What is
"odd" about Ward and June?


****************************
Denise Noe
Koko the Signing Gorilla says: "Fine animal gorilla."

Bill in Co. wrote: Well, you may have thought of me, Caren, but not enough to answer my question above! (Nor (for that matter) did anyone else). Perhaps, just perhaps, because the answer is self evident.

I sometimes wonder if the dystopian view from MwC,
Simpsons, etc is triggered by the disappointment
that Ozzie and Harriet, Ward and June, etc, were
so unrealistic? Perhaps many of the "downers" we
see (which might scare people away from the "usual"
relationships) are just an expression of
dissatisfaction by the writers who grew up with
idealistic expectations... which were all wrong?

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
"While life is too short to be taken seriously, it also lasts
for far too long to spend it with a stick up your ***." - me

Bill in Co. wrote: Well, you may have thought of me, Caren, but not enough to answer my question above! (Nor (for that matter) did anyone else). Perhaps, just perhaps, because the answer is self evident.

I sometimes wonder if the dystopian view from MwC,
Simpsons, etc is triggered by the disappointment
that Ozzie and Harriet, Ward and June, etc, were
so unrealistic? Perhaps many of the "downers" we
see (which might scare people away from the "usual"
relationships) are just an expression of
dissatisfaction by the writers who grew up with
idealistic expectations... which were all wrong?

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
"While life is too short to be taken seriously, it also lasts
for far too long to spend it with a stick up your ***." - me

"Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<9REOc.3728$cK.3428@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.ne t>... Caren wrote: "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<sQzMc.11959$mL5.2099@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink. net>... urf wrote:> "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message> news:5xcMc.12737$Qu5.12331@newsread2.news.pas.eart hlink.net...>> Kimberlee wrote:>>> Some of the older shows nurtured respect for family members.>>>> Almost all of them did. Today, it's just the opposite. WHY is that?>> (rhetorical Q)>>>>> I think that's something we should bring back to our culture.>>>> Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking>> realistically.>>>>> The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they>>> simply reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive>>> influence they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather than the>>> trash.>>> ~Kimberlee>>>> I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the pendulum>> swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If so,>> please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many)>>> I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame. Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It To Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to children in the episodes), and stuff like that. Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children". If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is considered acceptable, I don't know what does. I thought of you today Bill................. Well, you may have thought of me, Caren, but not enough to answer my question above! (Nor (for that matter) did anyone else). Perhaps, just perhaps, because the answer is self evident.

What's evident Bill is that you choose to look at what is wrong
instead of what is right.

"Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<9REOc.3728$cK.3428@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.ne t>... Caren wrote: "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<sQzMc.11959$mL5.2099@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink. net>... urf wrote:> "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message> news:5xcMc.12737$Qu5.12331@newsread2.news.pas.eart hlink.net...>> Kimberlee wrote:>>> Some of the older shows nurtured respect for family members.>>>> Almost all of them did. Today, it's just the opposite. WHY is that?>> (rhetorical Q)>>>>> I think that's something we should bring back to our culture.>>>> Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you? Speaking>> realistically.>>>>> The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they>>> simply reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a positive>>> influence they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather than the>>> trash.>>> ~Kimberlee>>>> I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the pendulum>> swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If so,>> please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many)>>> I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame. Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It To Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to children in the episodes), and stuff like that. Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children". If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is considered acceptable, I don't know what does. I thought of you today Bill................. Well, you may have thought of me, Caren, but not enough to answer my question above! (Nor (for that matter) did anyone else). Perhaps, just perhaps, because the answer is self evident.

What's evident Bill is that you choose to look at what is wrong
instead of what is right.

Caren wrote: "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<9REOc.3728$cK.3428@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.ne t>... Caren wrote: "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<sQzMc.11959$mL5.2099@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink. net>...> urf wrote:>> "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message>> news:5xcMc.12737$Qu5.12331@newsread2.news.pas.eart hlink.net...>>> Kimberlee wrote:>>>> Some of the older shows nurtured respect for family members.>>>>>> Almost all of them did. Today, it's just the opposite. WHY is>>> that (rhetorical Q)>>>>>>> I think that's something we should bring back to our culture.>>>>>> Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you?
Speaking>>> realistically.>>>>>>> The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they>>>> simply reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a
positive>>>> influence they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather>>>> than the trash.>>>> ~Kimberlee>>>>>> I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the
pendulum>>> swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If
so,>>> please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many)>>>>>> I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame.>> Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It> To Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to> children in the episodes), and stuff like that.>> Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children".>> If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is considered> acceptable, I don't know what does. I thought of you today Bill................. Well, you may have thought of me, Caren, but not enough to answer my question above! (Nor (for that matter) did anyone else). Perhaps,
just perhaps, because the answer is self evident. What's evident Bill is that you choose to look at what is wrong instead of what is right.

And some people (I'm not saying you) choose to ignore what has happened, or
are in denial of it, because that would be too hard for them to accept, and
it's a lot easier/safer/happier not thinking or worrying or even caring
about it. Hey, at least I have gone out and done something about it for
kids in various club activities, but that doesn't really change my outlook
for where we're really going as a society.

Caren wrote: "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<9REOc.3728$cK.3428@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.ne t>... Caren wrote: "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<sQzMc.11959$mL5.2099@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink. net>...> urf wrote:>> "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message>> news:5xcMc.12737$Qu5.12331@newsread2.news.pas.eart hlink.net...>>> Kimberlee wrote:>>>> Some of the older shows nurtured respect for family members.>>>>>> Almost all of them did. Today, it's just the opposite. WHY is>>> that (rhetorical Q)>>>>>>> I think that's something we should bring back to our culture.>>>>>> Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you?
Speaking>>> realistically.>>>>>>> The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say they>>>> simply reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a
positive>>>> influence they could be if they would "reflect" the positive, rather>>>> than the trash.>>>> ~Kimberlee>>>>>> I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the
pendulum>>> swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you do? If
so,>>> please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many)>>>>>> I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame.>> Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave It> To Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice to> children in the episodes), and stuff like that.>> Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children".>> If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is considered> acceptable, I don't know what does. I thought of you today Bill................. Well, you may have thought of me, Caren, but not enough to answer my question above! (Nor (for that matter) did anyone else). Perhaps,
just perhaps, because the answer is self evident. What's evident Bill is that you choose to look at what is wrong instead of what is right.

And some people (I'm not saying you) choose to ignore what has happened, or
are in denial of it, because that would be too hard for them to accept, and
it's a lot easier/safer/happier not thinking or worrying or even caring
about it. Hey, at least I have gone out and done something about it for
kids in various club activities, but that doesn't really change my outlook
for where we're really going as a society.

Denise noe wrote: I started this thread about Ward and June Cleaver and it quickly turned
into "Odd Role Models." Why are they considered "odd"? Is the combination of a breadwinning father and a homemaker mother -- which used to be standard -- now "odd"? What is "odd" about Ward and June?

What is odd is that they epitomized a good, working, (and yes, somewhat
idealized) relationship, before the (now current) days of a 50% divorce
rate, with programs like "Married With Children" being popular and somewhat
representative of today's value system - IOW, lack of respect for anything
and anybody.

That's what.

Denise noe wrote: I started this thread about Ward and June Cleaver and it quickly turned
into "Odd Role Models." Why are they considered "odd"? Is the combination of a breadwinning father and a homemaker mother -- which used to be standard -- now "odd"? What is "odd" about Ward and June?

What is odd is that they epitomized a good, working, (and yes, somewhat
idealized) relationship, before the (now current) days of a 50% divorce
rate, with programs like "Married With Children" being popular and somewhat
representative of today's value system - IOW, lack of respect for anything
and anybody.

That's what.

Jack C Lipton wrote: Bill in Co. wrote: Well, you may have thought of me, Caren, but not enough to answer my question above! (Nor (for that matter) did anyone else). Perhaps, just perhaps, because the answer is self evident. I sometimes wonder if the dystopian view from MwC, Simpsons, etc is triggered by the disappointment that Ozzie and Harriet, Ward and June, etc, were so unrealistic? Perhaps many of the "downers" we see (which might scare people away from the "usual" relationships) are just an expression of dissatisfaction by the writers who grew up with idealistic expectations... which were all wrong?

But there HAS indeed been a shift in values, and loss of respect, Jack.
It's not all in your imagination. .

Jack C Lipton wrote: Bill in Co. wrote: Well, you may have thought of me, Caren, but not enough to answer my question above! (Nor (for that matter) did anyone else). Perhaps, just perhaps, because the answer is self evident. I sometimes wonder if the dystopian view from MwC, Simpsons, etc is triggered by the disappointment that Ozzie and Harriet, Ward and June, etc, were so unrealistic? Perhaps many of the "downers" we see (which might scare people away from the "usual" relationships) are just an expression of dissatisfaction by the writers who grew up with idealistic expectations... which were all wrong?

But there HAS indeed been a shift in values, and loss of respect, Jack.
It's not all in your imagination. .

Bill in Co. wrote: Jack C Lipton wrote: Bill in Co. wrote: Well, you may have thought of me, Caren, but not enough to answer my question above! (Nor (for that matter) did anyone else). Perhaps, just perhaps, because the answer is self evident. I sometimes wonder if the dystopian view from MwC, Simpsons, etc is triggered by the disappointment that Ozzie and Harriet, Ward and June, etc, were so unrealistic? Perhaps many of the "downers" we see (which might scare people away from the "usual" relationships) are just an expression of dissatisfaction by the writers who grew up with idealistic expectations... which were all wrong? But there HAS indeed been a shift in values, and loss of respect, Jack. It's not all in your imagination. .

Perhaps because the real world has betrayed the
unreasonable expectations of our childhoods? That
might explain some of the anger...

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
"While life is too short to be taken seriously, it also lasts
for far too long to spend it with a stick up your ***." - me

Bill in Co. wrote: Jack C Lipton wrote: Bill in Co. wrote: Well, you may have thought of me, Caren, but not enough to answer my question above! (Nor (for that matter) did anyone else). Perhaps, just perhaps, because the answer is self evident. I sometimes wonder if the dystopian view from MwC, Simpsons, etc is triggered by the disappointment that Ozzie and Harriet, Ward and June, etc, were so unrealistic? Perhaps many of the "downers" we see (which might scare people away from the "usual" relationships) are just an expression of dissatisfaction by the writers who grew up with idealistic expectations... which were all wrong? But there HAS indeed been a shift in values, and loss of respect, Jack. It's not all in your imagination. .

Perhaps because the real world has betrayed the
unreasonable expectations of our childhoods? That
might explain some of the anger...

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
"While life is too short to be taken seriously, it also lasts
for far too long to spend it with a stick up your ***." - me

Bill in Co. wrote: Denise noe wrote: Why are they considered "odd"? Is the combination of a breadwinning father and a homemaker mother -- which used to be standard -- now "odd"? What is "odd" about Ward and June? What is odd is that they epitomized a good, working, (and yes, somewhat idealized) relationship, before the (now current) days of a 50% divorce rate, with programs like "Married With Children" being popular and somewhat representative of today's value system - IOW, lack of respect for anything and anybody.

Bill, I have to differ here.

Did you see married couples ever argue, much less
fight? Or was it always shown to be a master/slave
relationship? Were they peers? Or was there an
extreme asymmetry in authority?

Small minds will try to point to feminism as the
"poison pill" but that's just trying to find an
excuse rather than understanding that the dynamics
need to be addressed.

Marriages worked because women were, for the most
part, enslaved; accountable to their husband with
little voice. The big change apparently started in
the 1940s with "Rosie the Riveter" and the like who
got used to working as a way of life instead of as
a way to meet a husband. It's amazing how hard the
conditioning/programming had to be to submerge the
egos but, once the meme was loose. it spread. Many
of our institutions weren't ready for a marriage
between peers, so there are a bunch of overhauls
needed.

Women function well outside the housewife/homemaker
role (though the homemaker role might imply some
happy talent in carpentry) were still being
bombarded with the "rightness" of the subservient
role as seen in the popular culture of the time.

So there are problems with marriage, but that's
mostly due to the fact that the ancient set of
roles and responsibilities are more of a
straitjacket to both parties.

IOW... BTSOOM (Beats The **** Out Of Me).

(Yes, yes, I can hear some folks snickering at me
behind my back but I also hear people using
whetstones...)

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
"While life is too short to be taken seriously, it also lasts
for far too long to spend it with a stick up your ***." - me

Bill in Co. wrote: Denise noe wrote: Why are they considered "odd"? Is the combination of a breadwinning father and a homemaker mother -- which used to be standard -- now "odd"? What is "odd" about Ward and June? What is odd is that they epitomized a good, working, (and yes, somewhat idealized) relationship, before the (now current) days of a 50% divorce rate, with programs like "Married With Children" being popular and somewhat representative of today's value system - IOW, lack of respect for anything and anybody.

Bill, I have to differ here.

Did you see married couples ever argue, much less
fight? Or was it always shown to be a master/slave
relationship? Were they peers? Or was there an
extreme asymmetry in authority?

Small minds will try to point to feminism as the
"poison pill" but that's just trying to find an
excuse rather than understanding that the dynamics
need to be addressed.

Marriages worked because women were, for the most
part, enslaved; accountable to their husband with
little voice. The big change apparently started in
the 1940s with "Rosie the Riveter" and the like who
got used to working as a way of life instead of as
a way to meet a husband. It's amazing how hard the
conditioning/programming had to be to submerge the
egos but, once the meme was loose. it spread. Many
of our institutions weren't ready for a marriage
between peers, so there are a bunch of overhauls
needed.

Women function well outside the housewife/homemaker
role (though the homemaker role might imply some
happy talent in carpentry) were still being
bombarded with the "rightness" of the subservient
role as seen in the popular culture of the time.

So there are problems with marriage, but that's
mostly due to the fact that the ancient set of
roles and responsibilities are more of a
straitjacket to both parties.

IOW... BTSOOM (Beats The **** Out Of Me).

(Yes, yes, I can hear some folks snickering at me
behind my back but I also hear people using
whetstones...)

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
"While life is too short to be taken seriously, it also lasts
for far too long to spend it with a stick up your ***." - me

Jack C Lipton wrote: Bill in Co. wrote: Denise noe wrote: Why are they considered "odd"? Is the combination of a breadwinning father and a homemaker mother -- which used to be standard -- now "odd"? What is "odd" about Ward and June? What is odd is that they epitomized a good, working, (and yes, somewhat idealized) relationship, before the (now current) days of a 50% divorce rate, with programs like "Married With Children" being popular and somewhat representative of today's value system - IOW, lack of respect for anything and anybody. Bill, I have to differ here.

OK, I have to agree with some of what you have said here, Jack.

But still, no one has YET explained the shift in societal values to tolerate
(and dare I say, emulate, in many cases) crap like Married With Children.
Total and complete lack of respect, in many instances.

And the lack of respect for parents, teachers, and elders HAS indeed
(generally speaking) changed over the decades, Jack. Kids are not being
brought up as well, in many instances, across the board. Heck, you're
lucky if you can find a mom and pop home anymore. And THAT is something
you cannot sidestep! (Well, you can try, but if you do, it's denial).

Jack C Lipton wrote: Bill in Co. wrote: Denise noe wrote: Why are they considered "odd"? Is the combination of a breadwinning father and a homemaker mother -- which used to be standard -- now "odd"? What is "odd" about Ward and June? What is odd is that they epitomized a good, working, (and yes, somewhat idealized) relationship, before the (now current) days of a 50% divorce rate, with programs like "Married With Children" being popular and somewhat representative of today's value system - IOW, lack of respect for anything and anybody. Bill, I have to differ here.

OK, I have to agree with some of what you have said here, Jack.

But still, no one has YET explained the shift in societal values to tolerate
(and dare I say, emulate, in many cases) crap like Married With Children.
Total and complete lack of respect, in many instances.

And the lack of respect for parents, teachers, and elders HAS indeed
(generally speaking) changed over the decades, Jack. Kids are not being
brought up as well, in many instances, across the board. Heck, you're
lucky if you can find a mom and pop home anymore. And THAT is something
you cannot sidestep! (Well, you can try, but if you do, it's denial).

Jack C Lipton wrote:
Marriages worked because women were, for the most part, enslaved; accountable to their husband with little voice. The big change apparently started in the 1940s with "Rosie the Riveter" and the like who got used to working as a way of life instead of as a way to meet a husband.

Yes. Up until approximately the '40's, divorce =
subsistence lifestyle for the vast majority of women.
While some would equate the higher divorce rates as
a lack of respect or values, it's more a gauge of
another choice (i.e., a woman could have a decent
lifestyle for herself and any children if divorced)
being thrown into the mix. Feeling as if you *can't*
divorce because a divorce would mean a high probability
of starvation or dying of exposure or disease does not
equal respect, no matter how you slice it.

Anecdotal evidence for sure, but my grandparents were
married until the day they died and, while I won't say
I never saw them being respectful of each other, I don't
*remember* any evidence of that. All I remember is my
grandfather searching the house and even stealing money
off of my grandmother and his own kids so that he could
go and spend hours at the local bar and my grandmother
talking badly about him and to him. If they were born
later, I believe that they would have been one of the
marriages that ended in divorce. Does the fact that they
remained married until my grandmother's death mean they
respected each other? Not hardly. Does the fact that they
remained married until my grandmother's death mean they
valued the institute of marriage? Not IMO.

Tracey

Jack C Lipton wrote:
Marriages worked because women were, for the most part, enslaved; accountable to their husband with little voice. The big change apparently started in the 1940s with "Rosie the Riveter" and the like who got used to working as a way of life instead of as a way to meet a husband.

Yes. Up until approximately the '40's, divorce =
subsistence lifestyle for the vast majority of women.
While some would equate the higher divorce rates as
a lack of respect or values, it's more a gauge of
another choice (i.e., a woman could have a decent
lifestyle for herself and any children if divorced)
being thrown into the mix. Feeling as if you *can't*
divorce because a divorce would mean a high probability
of starvation or dying of exposure or disease does not
equal respect, no matter how you slice it.

Anecdotal evidence for sure, but my grandparents were
married until the day they died and, while I won't say
I never saw them being respectful of each other, I don't
*remember* any evidence of that. All I remember is my
grandfather searching the house and even stealing money
off of my grandmother and his own kids so that he could
go and spend hours at the local bar and my grandmother
talking badly about him and to him. If they were born
later, I believe that they would have been one of the
marriages that ended in divorce. Does the fact that they
remained married until my grandmother's death mean they
respected each other? Not hardly. Does the fact that they
remained married until my grandmother's death mean they
valued the institute of marriage? Not IMO.

Tracey

Tracey wrote: Jack C Lipton wrote: Marriages worked because women were, for the most part, enslaved; accountable to their husband with little voice. The big change apparently started in the 1940s with "Rosie the Riveter" and the like who got used to working as a way of life instead of as a way to meet a husband. Yes. Up until approximately the '40's, divorce = subsistence lifestyle for the vast majority of women. While some would equate the higher divorce rates as a lack of respect or values, it's more a gauge of another choice (i.e., a woman could have a decent lifestyle for herself and any children if divorced) being thrown into the mix. Feeling as if you *can't* divorce because a divorce would mean a high probability of starvation or dying of exposure or disease does not equal respect, no matter how you slice it.

That's part of it, for sure, but that's not all of it, by any means.
There is generally more lack of respect and commitment these days. Part
of the ME ME ME legacy, and *feeling entitled* to always "feeling"
self-actualized (or whatever), at any and all costs, and all the time.
There are even classes for it. ME ME ME. Throw that into the mix, and
you may get a complete picture.

Tracey wrote: Jack C Lipton wrote: Marriages worked because women were, for the most part, enslaved; accountable to their husband with little voice. The big change apparently started in the 1940s with "Rosie the Riveter" and the like who got used to working as a way of life instead of as a way to meet a husband. Yes. Up until approximately the '40's, divorce = subsistence lifestyle for the vast majority of women. While some would equate the higher divorce rates as a lack of respect or values, it's more a gauge of another choice (i.e., a woman could have a decent lifestyle for herself and any children if divorced) being thrown into the mix. Feeling as if you *can't* divorce because a divorce would mean a high probability of starvation or dying of exposure or disease does not equal respect, no matter how you slice it.

That's part of it, for sure, but that's not all of it, by any means.
There is generally more lack of respect and commitment these days. Part
of the ME ME ME legacy, and *feeling entitled* to always "feeling"
self-actualized (or whatever), at any and all costs, and all the time.
There are even classes for it. ME ME ME. Throw that into the mix, and
you may get a complete picture.

"Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<rVROc.4093$cK.2984@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.ne t>... Jack C Lipton wrote: Bill in Co. wrote: Denise noe wrote:> Why are they considered "odd"? Is the combination> of a breadwinning father and a homemaker mother --> which used to be standard -- now "odd"? What is> "odd" about Ward and June? What is odd is that they epitomized a good, working, (and yes, somewhat idealized) relationship, before the (now current) days of a 50% divorce rate, with programs like "Married With Children" being popular and somewhat representative of today's value system - IOW, lack of respect for anything and anybody. Bill, I have to differ here. OK, I have to agree with some of what you have said here, Jack. But still, no one has YET explained the shift in societal values to tolerate (and dare I say, emulate, in many cases) crap like Married With Children. Total and complete lack of respect, in many instances. And the lack of respect for parents, teachers, and elders HAS indeed (generally speaking) changed over the decades, Jack. Kids are not being brought up as well, in many instances, across the board. Heck, you're lucky if you can find a mom and pop home anymore. And THAT is something you cannot sidestep! (Well, you can try, but if you do, it's denial).

Bill, while I agree that in many ways things have changed and for many
children there seems to be a lack of respect. I'm a mom that stays
home and 26 years ago I was a mom that stayed home. It was a value
that I had then and I continue to have. I am one of those moms that
is overly protective and I'm on my daughter all of the time.

What I will also tell you is that I was raised with an overprotective
mother who totally treated me disresepctfully. I was physically
abused, she berated me any time she had the chance. I was not allowed
to be a kid. I was a mini adult. If I said something disrespectful
or rude, I was smacked in the face. If I got my shoes dirty in mud, I
was beaten with a strap. YES, I learned to respect my elders, yes I
learned to be quiet and yes I learned that children should be seen and
not heard. I was told what to feel, when to feel and how to feel. I
was told that if I didn't get "that look" off my face that she'd
REALLY give me something to cry about.

Fast foward many years and little Caren becoming a parent. I raised a
very respectful son who does not fear me, but he does respect me and
those around him. Sure I am respectful, but the way it was taught to
me in the 50's was HORRID, in my humble opinion. Back then I"m sure
that i was not the only child that was beaten and treated like a peice
of garbage. And CPS was not around to protect children from that.

I have a daughter who is not as respectful as my son and she is still
young. I"m hoping that she'll come around, but I raise her with the
same values that I raised him with. And I'm always home for her. I
attend all school functions, work in her classroom each year, do stuff
for the PTO, bring her to sports and other activities for her to try
in order to find her passion.

I teach her music and art. We cook together. I arrange play dates
and figure out which kids are and are not good for her.

Don't hand me this crap that society is a peice of **** and that no
one cares anymore. I'm sure that I'm not alone, but I sometimes tire
of you complaining about society. You get tired of Ted complaining
and doing nothing about it, right? Well, this applies to you to.

I suggested trying to reach out past your comfort zone and helping a
kid who doesn't have a caring family or has a caring family that has
little or no resources to do anything extracirricular. Help out!

In my humble opinion, either quit complaining about society today or
friggin do something about it! End of rant :-)

"Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<rVROc.4093$cK.2984@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.ne t>... Jack C Lipton wrote: Bill in Co. wrote: Denise noe wrote:> Why are they considered "odd"? Is the combination> of a breadwinning father and a homemaker mother --> which used to be standard -- now "odd"? What is> "odd" about Ward and June? What is odd is that they epitomized a good, working, (and yes, somewhat idealized) relationship, before the (now current) days of a 50% divorce rate, with programs like "Married With Children" being popular and somewhat representative of today's value system - IOW, lack of respect for anything and anybody. Bill, I have to differ here. OK, I have to agree with some of what you have said here, Jack. But still, no one has YET explained the shift in societal values to tolerate (and dare I say, emulate, in many cases) crap like Married With Children. Total and complete lack of respect, in many instances. And the lack of respect for parents, teachers, and elders HAS indeed (generally speaking) changed over the decades, Jack. Kids are not being brought up as well, in many instances, across the board. Heck, you're lucky if you can find a mom and pop home anymore. And THAT is something you cannot sidestep! (Well, you can try, but if you do, it's denial).

Bill, while I agree that in many ways things have changed and for many
children there seems to be a lack of respect. I'm a mom that stays
home and 26 years ago I was a mom that stayed home. It was a value
that I had then and I continue to have. I am one of those moms that
is overly protective and I'm on my daughter all of the time.

What I will also tell you is that I was raised with an overprotective
mother who totally treated me disresepctfully. I was physically
abused, she berated me any time she had the chance. I was not allowed
to be a kid. I was a mini adult. If I said something disrespectful
or rude, I was smacked in the face. If I got my shoes dirty in mud, I
was beaten with a strap. YES, I learned to respect my elders, yes I
learned to be quiet and yes I learned that children should be seen and
not heard. I was told what to feel, when to feel and how to feel. I
was told that if I didn't get "that look" off my face that she'd
REALLY give me something to cry about.

Fast foward many years and little Caren becoming a parent. I raised a
very respectful son who does not fear me, but he does respect me and
those around him. Sure I am respectful, but the way it was taught to
me in the 50's was HORRID, in my humble opinion. Back then I"m sure
that i was not the only child that was beaten and treated like a peice
of garbage. And CPS was not around to protect children from that.

I have a daughter who is not as respectful as my son and she is still
young. I"m hoping that she'll come around, but I raise her with the
same values that I raised him with. And I'm always home for her. I
attend all school functions, work in her classroom each year, do stuff
for the PTO, bring her to sports and other activities for her to try
in order to find her passion.

I teach her music and art. We cook together. I arrange play dates
and figure out which kids are and are not good for her.

Don't hand me this crap that society is a peice of **** and that no
one cares anymore. I'm sure that I'm not alone, but I sometimes tire
of you complaining about society. You get tired of Ted complaining
and doing nothing about it, right? Well, this applies to you to.

I suggested trying to reach out past your comfort zone and helping a
kid who doesn't have a caring family or has a caring family that has
little or no resources to do anything extracirricular. Help out!

In my humble opinion, either quit complaining about society today or
friggin do something about it! End of rant :-)

<< caren50@msn.com (Caren)
Date: Sat, Jul 31, 2004 8:09 PM >>


(Denise Noe) Caren, what do you think of June Cleaver as a stay-at-home-mom?
Is she a role model for you?


****************************
Denise Noe
Koko the Signing Gorilla says: "Fine animal gorilla."

<< caren50@msn.com (Caren)
Date: Sat, Jul 31, 2004 8:09 PM >>


(Denise Noe) Caren, what do you think of June Cleaver as a stay-at-home-mom?
Is she a role model for you?


****************************
Denise Noe
Koko the Signing Gorilla says: "Fine animal gorilla."

Bill in Co. wrote: Jack C Lipton wrote: Bill in Co. wrote: Denise noe wrote:> Why are they considered "odd"? Is the combination> of a breadwinning father and a homemaker mother --> which used to be standard -- now "odd"? What is> "odd" about Ward and June? What is odd is that they epitomized a good, working, (and yes, somewhat idealized) relationship, before the (now current) days of a 50% divorce rate, with programs like "Married With Children" being popular and somewhat representative of today's value system - IOW, lack of respect for anything and anybody. Bill, I have to differ here. OK, I have to agree with some of what you have said here, Jack.

Which worries me... :-)
But still, no one has YET explained the shift in societal values to tolerate (and dare I say, emulate, in many cases) crap like Married With Children. Total and complete lack of respect, in many instances.

Well, I wonder sometimes whether some of it comes from
a lack of empathy: many people *won't* think about what
it would be like to be the victims of their own behavior.

Too many people forget that one day it will be THEM
and they'll wonder why no one respects them.
And the lack of respect for parents, teachers, and elders HAS indeed (generally speaking) changed over the decades, Jack. Kids are not being brought up as well, in many instances, across the board. Heck, you're lucky if you can find a mom and pop home anymore. And THAT is something you cannot sidestep! (Well, you can try, but if you do, it's denial).

Look, there are a couple of problems here.

#1 The "examples" of the "ideal marital relationship"
won't work in real life with read human beings.
#2 Financial situations (i.e. the broad labor pool we
have with men AND women) have depressed pay rates
across the board (at least in "real" non-CEO jobs)
which has placed more pressure to make two-income
households more required.
#3 People tend to avoid considering the consequences
of their choices and actions; seldom do we really
consider how other people will be impacted.

When one's role models are TOO far beyond anything we
can ever touch, much less grasp, there is going to be
a backlash against "accepted norms".

People are NOT robots.

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
"While life is too short to be taken seriously, it also lasts
for far too long to spend it with a stick up your ***." - me

Bill in Co. wrote: Jack C Lipton wrote: Bill in Co. wrote: Denise noe wrote:> Why are they considered "odd"? Is the combination> of a breadwinning father and a homemaker mother --> which used to be standard -- now "odd"? What is> "odd" about Ward and June? What is odd is that they epitomized a good, working, (and yes, somewhat idealized) relationship, before the (now current) days of a 50% divorce rate, with programs like "Married With Children" being popular and somewhat representative of today's value system - IOW, lack of respect for anything and anybody. Bill, I have to differ here. OK, I have to agree with some of what you have said here, Jack.

Which worries me... :-)
But still, no one has YET explained the shift in societal values to tolerate (and dare I say, emulate, in many cases) crap like Married With Children. Total and complete lack of respect, in many instances.

Well, I wonder sometimes whether some of it comes from
a lack of empathy: many people *won't* think about what
it would be like to be the victims of their own behavior.

Too many people forget that one day it will be THEM
and they'll wonder why no one respects them.
And the lack of respect for parents, teachers, and elders HAS indeed (generally speaking) changed over the decades, Jack. Kids are not being brought up as well, in many instances, across the board. Heck, you're lucky if you can find a mom and pop home anymore. And THAT is something you cannot sidestep! (Well, you can try, but if you do, it's denial).

Look, there are a couple of problems here.

#1 The "examples" of the "ideal marital relationship"
won't work in real life with read human beings.
#2 Financial situations (i.e. the broad labor pool we
have with men AND women) have depressed pay rates
across the board (at least in "real" non-CEO jobs)
which has placed more pressure to make two-income
households more required.
#3 People tend to avoid considering the consequences
of their choices and actions; seldom do we really
consider how other people will be impacted.

When one's role models are TOO far beyond anything we
can ever touch, much less grasp, there is going to be
a backlash against "accepted norms".

People are NOT robots.

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup at pele dot cx | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
"While life is too short to be taken seriously, it also lasts
for far too long to spend it with a stick up your ***." - me

Jack C Lipton wrote: Bill in Co. wrote: Jack C Lipton wrote: Bill in Co. wrote:> Denise noe wrote:>> Why are they considered "odd"? Is the combination>> of a breadwinning father and a homemaker mother -->> which used to be standard -- now "odd"? What is>> "odd" about Ward and June?>> What is odd is that they epitomized a good, working,> (and yes, somewhat idealized) relationship, before> the (now current) days of a 50% divorce rate, with> programs like "Married With Children" being popular> and somewhat representative of today's value system> - IOW, lack of respect for anything and anybody. Bill, I have to differ here. OK, I have to agree with some of what you have said here, Jack. Which worries me... :-) But still, no one has YET explained the shift in societal values to tolerate (and dare I say, emulate, in many cases) crap like Married With Children. Total and complete lack of respect, in many instances. Well, I wonder sometimes whether some of it comes from a lack of empathy: many people *won't* think about what it would be like to be the victims of their own behavior.

Yup, because many are, and have always been, too damn self-centered, and get
away with it (and with some help, from our illustrious legal system).

Send them over to me. I would just LOVE to form a squad to "break them
in", so they can see what it's like at the receiving end! You can call it
a "boot camp". I'll volunteer to be one of the D.I.s
Too many people forget that one day it will be THEM and they'll wonder why no one respects them.

No, they don't forget. They're just too stupid and self centered to get
it, Jack. Besides which, some of them may never get it - who knows.
And the lack of respect for parents, teachers, and elders HAS indeed (generally speaking) changed over the decades, Jack. Kids are not being brought up as well, in many instances, across the board. Heck, you're lucky if you can find a mom and pop home anymore. And THAT is something you cannot sidestep! (Well, you can try, but if you do, it's denial). Look, there are a couple of problems here. #1 The "examples" of the "ideal marital relationship" won't work in real life with read human beings. #2 Financial situations (i.e. the broad labor pool we have with men AND women) have depressed pay rates across the board (at least in "real" non-CEO jobs) which has placed more pressure to make two-income households more required. #3 People tend to avoid considering the consequences of their choices and actions;

Understatement of the year..... (thanks for the laugh)
seldom do we really consider how other people will be impacted.

Second understatement of the year. (At least you've got a sense of humour,
Jack).
When one's role models are TOO far beyond anything we can ever touch, much less grasp, there is going to be a backlash against "accepted norms". People are NOT robots.

Sometimes worse than that: at least robots aren't inconsiderate, like [so
many] people are. And robots aren't self centerered, like [so many]
people are.

Jack C Lipton wrote: Bill in Co. wrote: Jack C Lipton wrote: Bill in Co. wrote:> Denise noe wrote:>> Why are they considered "odd"? Is the combination>> of a breadwinning father and a homemaker mother -->> which used to be standard -- now "odd"? What is>> "odd" about Ward and June?>> What is odd is that they epitomized a good, working,> (and yes, somewhat idealized) relationship, before> the (now current) days of a 50% divorce rate, with> programs like "Married With Children" being popular> and somewhat representative of today's value system> - IOW, lack of respect for anything and anybody. Bill, I have to differ here. OK, I have to agree with some of what you have said here, Jack. Which worries me... :-) But still, no one has YET explained the shift in societal values to tolerate (and dare I say, emulate, in many cases) crap like Married With Children. Total and complete lack of respect, in many instances. Well, I wonder sometimes whether some of it comes from a lack of empathy: many people *won't* think about what it would be like to be the victims of their own behavior.

Yup, because many are, and have always been, too damn self-centered, and get
away with it (and with some help, from our illustrious legal system).

Send them over to me. I would just LOVE to form a squad to "break them
in", so they can see what it's like at the receiving end! You can call it
a "boot camp". I'll volunteer to be one of the D.I.s
Too many people forget that one day it will be THEM and they'll wonder why no one respects them.

No, they don't forget. They're just too stupid and self centered to get
it, Jack. Besides which, some of them may never get it - who knows.
And the lack of respect for parents, teachers, and elders HAS indeed (generally speaking) changed over the decades, Jack. Kids are not being brought up as well, in many instances, across the board. Heck, you're lucky if you can find a mom and pop home anymore. And THAT is something you cannot sidestep! (Well, you can try, but if you do, it's denial). Look, there are a couple of problems here. #1 The "examples" of the "ideal marital relationship" won't work in real life with read human beings. #2 Financial situations (i.e. the broad labor pool we have with men AND women) have depressed pay rates across the board (at least in "real" non-CEO jobs) which has placed more pressure to make two-income households more required. #3 People tend to avoid considering the consequences of their choices and actions;

Understatement of the year..... (thanks for the laugh)
seldom do we really consider how other people will be impacted.

Second understatement of the year. (At least you've got a sense of humour,
Jack).
When one's role models are TOO far beyond anything we can ever touch, much less grasp, there is going to be a backlash against "accepted norms". People are NOT robots.

Sometimes worse than that: at least robots aren't inconsiderate, like [so
many] people are. And robots aren't self centerered, like [so many]
people are.

Bill in Co. wrote: Caren wrote: "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<9REOc.3728$cK.3428@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.ne t>... Caren wrote:> "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message> news:<sQzMc.11959$mL5.2099@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink. net>...>> urf wrote:>>> "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message>>> news:5xcMc.12737$Qu5.12331@newsread2.news.pas.eart hlink.net...>>>> Kimberlee wrote:>>>>> Some of the older shows nurtured respect for family members.>>>>>>>> Almost all of them did. Today, it's just the opposite. WHY is>>>> that (rhetorical Q)>>>>>>>>> I think that's something we should bring back to our culture.>>>>>>>> Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you?>>>> Speaking realistically.>>>>>>>>> The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say
they>>>>> simply reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a
positive>>>>> influence they could be if they would "reflect" the positive,
rather>>>>> than the trash.>>>>> ~Kimberlee>>>>>>>> I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the>>>> pendulum swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you
do?>>>> If so, please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many)>>>>>>>>> I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame.>>>> Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave
It>> To Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice
to>> children in the episodes), and stuff like that.>>>> Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children".>>>> If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is>> considered acceptable, I don't know what does.>> I thought of you today Bill................. Well, you may have thought of me, Caren, but not enough to answer my question above! (Nor (for that matter) did anyone else). Perhaps,
just perhaps, because the answer is self evident. What's evident Bill is that you choose to look at what is wrong instead of what is right. And some people (I'm not saying you) choose to ignore what has happened,
or are in denial of it, because that would be too hard for them to accept,
and it's a lot easier/safer/happier not thinking or worrying or even caring about it. Hey, at least I have gone out and done something about it for kids in various club activities, but that doesn't really change my outlook for where we're really going as a society.

Just FYI, Caren, it has included involvement in:
the Boy's Club
the Girl Scouts
Middle School Science Fairs
and things like that (not counting my neighborhood cleanup activities)

To be perfectly honest, not enough people volunteer for such actitivies -
outside of their own "window". And our society is suffering as a result,
especially since nowadays (in the recent generations), no one is often home
for the kids anyways, in so, so many cases. And with both parents working
full time, there is little time left for anything else. So, quite
naturally, the "anything else" often suffers, and/or suffers neglect.

Bill in Co. wrote: Caren wrote: "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<9REOc.3728$cK.3428@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.ne t>... Caren wrote:> "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message> news:<sQzMc.11959$mL5.2099@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink. net>...>> urf wrote:>>> "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message>>> news:5xcMc.12737$Qu5.12331@newsread2.news.pas.eart hlink.net...>>>> Kimberlee wrote:>>>>> Some of the older shows nurtured respect for family members.>>>>>>>> Almost all of them did. Today, it's just the opposite. WHY is>>>> that (rhetorical Q)>>>>>>>>> I think that's something we should bring back to our culture.>>>>>>>> Absolutely, but I don't think it's gonna happen. Do you?>>>> Speaking realistically.>>>>>>>>> The media has such a strong influence on our society. They say
they>>>>> simply reflect what's going on in our families; how much of a
positive>>>>> influence they could be if they would "reflect" the positive,
rather>>>>> than the trash.>>>>> ~Kimberlee>>>>>>>> I think so too, Kimberlee. But I don't have much faith in the>>>> pendulum swinging back again. (I mean, honestly, can you say you
do?>>>> If so, please present some shining examples. I haven't seen many)>>>>>>>>> I do. Absolutely I do. What can not be foreseen is the time frame.>>>> Well, let's see. On the one hand, we used to have shows like Leave
It>> To Beaver, The Nelsons, Hopalong Cassidy (who often put good advice
to>> children in the episodes), and stuff like that.>>>> Now that has been replaced with shows like "Married With Children".>>>> If that doesn't speak volumes about where we are now, and what is>> considered acceptable, I don't know what does.>> I thought of you today Bill................. Well, you may have thought of me, Caren, but not enough to answer my question above! (Nor (for that matter) did anyone else). Perhaps,
just perhaps, because the answer is self evident. What's evident Bill is that you choose to look at what is wrong instead of what is right. And some people (I'm not saying you) choose to ignore what has happened,
or are in denial of it, because that would be too hard for them to accept,
and it's a lot easier/safer/happier not thinking or worrying or even caring about it. Hey, at least I have gone out and done something about it for kids in various club activities, but that doesn't really change my outlook for where we're really going as a society.

Just FYI, Caren, it has included involvement in:
the Boy's Club
the Girl Scouts
Middle School Science Fairs
and things like that (not counting my neighborhood cleanup activities)

To be perfectly honest, not enough people volunteer for such actitivies -
outside of their own "window". And our society is suffering as a result,
especially since nowadays (in the recent generations), no one is often home
for the kids anyways, in so, so many cases. And with both parents working
full time, there is little time left for anything else. So, quite
naturally, the "anything else" often suffers, and/or suffers neglect.

"Bill in Co." <surly8curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<rVhPc.5844$cK.377@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>... Bill in Co. wrote: Caren wrote: "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<9REOc.3728$cK.3428@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.ne t>...> Caren wrote:>> "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message>> news:<sQzMc.11959$mL5.2099@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink. net>...>>> urf wrote:>>>> "Bill in Co." <surly7curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message>>>> news:5xcMc.12737$Qu5.12331@newsread2.news.pas.eart hlink.net...>>>>> Kimberlee wrote:>>>>>> Some of the older shows nurtured respect for family members.>>>>>>>>>> Almost all of them did. Today, it's just the opposite. WHY is>>>>> that (rhetorical Q)>>>>>>>>>>> I think that's something we should bring back to our culture.>>>>>>>>>