In article <2i0kbaFhvlncU1@uni-berlin.de>,
"dejablues" <dejablues@comcast.net> wrote:

What I think is that you've put the very bestest spin you can onthis man's actions and that's what has kept you dangling. I thinkthat if you were to start viewing him and his actions more clearly,your decision as to what to do would be much clearer. Again, I agree. Paula "Co-parenting" with this guy seems to be out of the question. Are you going to call him up everytime she does the next cute thing or learns something new or has a school play or has an ear infection? And would he care anyway? If finances allow (meaning you can do without child support checks) treat him as the sperm donor who made your dream of being a mother possible, and raise your daughter yourself.

I don't think she can change the fact that he IS also the girl's parent.
If he chooses to be involved to some extent, she can't prevent that. He
does have some legal rights -- though he may choose to not persue them.

If he CHOOSES for his only contact with his daughter to be making child
support payments, that would be fine. But even then, the two parents
will have to have SOME contact, even if it is only her cashing his
checks.

I suppose the term "co-parent" may imply an equality; but I know of no
other term to use to state, simply, that he IS the girl's father -- and
it may not be possible for her to terminate THAT part of their
relationship.

She can, however, minimize it -- and, if he refuses to have contact with
her without declaring his love, she can see to it that their contact
(the two parents) is through a neutral third party, so she doesn't have
to see him directly.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

On Mon, 31 May 2004 17:45:26 GMT, Paula <luvnmom627@NOBS_hotmail.com>
wrote:
This is it exactly. I want him to be a part of her life if he CHOOSESto do so. I have concerns about him making that choice based on whathis wife wants. I guess I have no control over that, and if he makesa choice that he regrets, it was his choice. But what if my daughteralso regrets it ... I feel like I need to be sure it's _his_ choice,for her.

As you just said, you have no control over that. Is his wife's
influence even particularly relevant here? His choices are his
choices. I don't believe his wife had too much control over his
relationship with you thus far, did she?

dragonlady <mehouck@REMOVEpacbell.net> shared the following
perspective and opinions:
I don't think she can change the fact that he IS also the girl's parent.If he chooses to be involved to some extent, she can't prevent that. Hedoes have some legal rights -- though he may choose to not persue them.If he CHOOSES for his only contact with his daughter to be making childsupport payments, that would be fine. But even then, the two parentswill have to have SOME contact, even if it is only her cashing hischecks.I suppose the term "co-parent" may imply an equality; but I know of noother term to use to state, simply, that he IS the girl's father -- andit may not be possible for her to terminate THAT part of theirrelationship.

This is it exactly. I want him to be a part of her life if he CHOOSES
to do so. I have concerns about him making that choice based on what
his wife wants. I guess I have no control over that, and if he makes
a choice that he regrets, it was his choice. But what if my daughter
also regrets it ... I feel like I need to be sure it's _his_ choice,
for her.
She can, however, minimize it -- and, if he refuses to have contact withher without declaring his love, she can see to it that their contact(the two parents) is through a neutral third party, so she doesn't haveto see him directly.

I have suggested this as, at a minimum short-term, solution. I don't
believe that he's discussed it with his wife, yet.

Paula

"Now the peace you will find, in your own you have found,
the lights of the city are the stars on the ground.
'I may not be a quaalude living in a speed zone,'
But I could be restful, I could be someone's home,
if I fell down"
When All the Stars Were Falling - Lisa Loeb


** remove NOBS_ to email me **

On Mon, 31 May 2004 17:45:26 GMT, Paula <luvnmom627@NOBS_hotmail.com>
wrote:
dragonlady <mehouck@REMOVEpacbell.net> shared the followingperspective and opinions:I don't think she can change the fact that he IS also the girl's parent.If he chooses to be involved to some extent, she can't prevent that. Hedoes have some legal rights -- though he may choose to not persue them.If he CHOOSES for his only contact with his daughter to be making childsupport payments, that would be fine. But even then, the two parentswill have to have SOME contact, even if it is only her cashing hischecks.I suppose the term "co-parent" may imply an equality; but I know of noother term to use to state, simply, that he IS the girl's father -- andit may not be possible for her to terminate THAT part of theirrelationship.This is it exactly. I want him to be a part of her life if he CHOOSESto do so. I have concerns about him making that choice based on whathis wife wants. I guess I have no control over that, and if he makesa choice that he regrets, it was his choice. But what if my daughteralso regrets it ... I feel like I need to be sure it's _his_ choice,for her.

As a dis-interested observer, I see it this way.... you'd be making a
mistake to try and determine if his choice is based on what his wife
wants. That will set you and your daughter up for a lifetime of bad
feelings towards both he and his wife.
What it boils down to is this: He's a grown man, capable of making
his own choices. If his wife wants him to do something a certain way
and he does, that is still a choice *he* is making. You really need
to open your eyes, here.
She can, however, minimize it -- and, if he refuses to have contact withher without declaring his love, she can see to it that their contact(the two parents) is through a neutral third party, so she doesn't haveto see him directly.I have suggested this as, at a minimum short-term, solution. I don'tbelieve that he's discussed it with his wife, yet.

If he hasn't discussed it with her, this if very telling of his
intentions. Personally, I don't think he'll ever be the way you're
hoping he will.
He's pretty much set it out for you already. Now, you just need to
accept it and move on.

Nan

Nan <nlb63@yahoo.com> shared the following perspective and opinions:
On Mon, 31 May 2004 17:45:26 GMT, Paula <luvnmom627@NOBS_hotmail.com>wrote:dragonlady <mehouck@REMOVEpacbell.net> shared the followingperspective and opinions:I suppose the term "co-parent" may imply an equality; but I know of noother term to use to state, simply, that he IS the girl's father -- andit may not be possible for her to terminate THAT part of theirrelationship.This is it exactly. I want him to be a part of her life if he CHOOSESto do so. I have concerns about him making that choice based on whathis wife wants. I guess I have no control over that, and if he makesa choice that he regrets, it was his choice. But what if my daughteralso regrets it ... I feel like I need to be sure it's _his_ choice,for her.As a dis-interested observer, I see it this way.... you'd be making amistake to try and determine if his choice is based on what his wifewants. That will set you and your daughter up for a lifetime of badfeelings towards both he and his wife.What it boils down to is this: He's a grown man, capable of makinghis own choices. If his wife wants him to do something a certain wayand he does, that is still a choice *he* is making. You really needto open your eyes, here.

Agreed, but if the choice is made based upon what his wife wants
rather than how he feels about our child it has different implications
to our child (and her future feelings about her father).
She can, however, minimize it -- and, if he refuses to have contact withher without declaring his love, she can see to it that their contact(the two parents) is through a neutral third party, so she doesn't haveto see him directly.I have suggested this as, at a minimum short-term, solution. I don'tbelieve that he's discussed it with his wife, yet.If he hasn't discussed it with her, this if very telling of hisintentions.

This was only suggested about 10 days ago (after the month of not
seeing her which resulted in him being depressed and hinting at
suicidal thoughts occasionally). I think he's got a little bit more
time before it's so telling.

Paula

"Now the peace you will find, in your own you have found,
the lights of the city are the stars on the ground.
'I may not be a quaalude living in a speed zone,'
But I could be restful, I could be someone's home,
if I fell down"
When All the Stars Were Falling - Lisa Loeb


** remove NOBS_ to email me **

On Mon, 31 May 2004 21:50:19 GMT, Paula <luvnmom627@NOBS_hotmail.com>
wrote:
Nan <nlb63@yahoo.com> shared
What it boils down to is this: He's a grown man, capable of makinghis own choices. If his wife wants him to do something a certain wayand he does, that is still a choice *he* is making. You really needto open your eyes, here.Agreed, but if the choice is made based upon what his wife wantsrather than how he feels about our child it has different implicationsto our child (and her future feelings about her father).

However, you're making the mistake of believing you have anything to
do with your daughter's future feelings. In reality, you simply do
not have that kind of control. No matter what you tell her, or how he
acts, she will have her feelings. He could be a real **** to her, and
she could still love him. You need to let go of trying to determine
that part of the future.
You only have control over yourself.
If he hasn't discussed it with her, this if very telling of hisintentions.This was only suggested about 10 days ago (after the month of notseeing her which resulted in him being depressed and hinting atsuicidal thoughts occasionally). I think he's got a little bit moretime before it's so telling.

How long? a month? 6 months? a year?
I really hate to say this, but he really seems to be playing you like
a violin. 10 days is plenty of time to discuss something with someone
he sees day in and day out, especially when it's a big issue. It
sounds to me like he's avoiding it.
And telling you about suicidal thoughts may just be another way of
manipulating you.

Nan

Paula <luvnmom627@NOBS_hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<i6rmb0dffshgv29jmht79moj5im15fv5rn@4ax.com>...
I suppose the term "co-parent" may imply an equality; but I know of noother term to use to state, simply, that he IS the girl's father -- andit may not be possible for her to terminate THAT part of theirrelationship. This is it exactly. I want him to be a part of her life if he CHOOSES to do so. I have concerns about him making that choice based on what his wife wants. I guess I have no control over that, and if he makes a choice that he regrets, it was his choice. But what if my daughter also regrets it ... I feel like I need to be sure it's _his_ choice, for her.

Right now you're making it awfully easy for him to make no choice at
all. It could continue on like this indefinetly, or more likely,
either you or his wife will dump him and make the choice for him. I'm
sure that's what he's hoping for.

I suggest you move away. That will force him to make not only a
choice, but an effort to enforce that choice. I.e., by arranging to
come visit or fly his daughter back for a visit. If he makes such an
effort, you will have more confidence that he's doing so by his own
choice, and no other reason such as guilt.

By removing yourself and your daughter from the situation, he will
also have some breathing room to figure out whether his marriage is
salvagable or not. That is the first question at hand.

If he was to choose to stay married and co-parent with you, he'll need
to do so from a position of strength within his marriage. If that
becomes the case, it is in your daughter's best interest if he can
heal that relationship and form some sort of understanding with his
wife. OTOH, if he was to choose to leave his marriage and join you and
your daughter, it will still serve him and you well if he can exit as
gracefully as possible, tying up those issues and coming to terms with
his family, and hopefully spending some time on his own healing and
analyzing his role in the matter.

jen

Paula wrote:
This is it exactly. I want him to be a part of her life if he CHOOSES to do so. I have concerns about him making that choice based on what his wife wants. I guess I have no control over that, and if he makes a choice that he regrets, it was his choice. But what if my daughter also regrets it ... I feel like I need to be sure it's _his_ choice, for her.

I really think you need to examine this a bit. For a couple of reasons.
First, your daughter's relationship with her father is not yours to
form, nurture, fix, make sure happens, etc., beyond the basics such
as making sure that there is opportunity for him to see her/be with
her and to not do anything to impede their relationship. And, second,
his decision is his decision. Whether his decision is made because
of an ultimatum/demand his wife has made or not, really doesn't matter.
And it will be up to him to explain to his daughter one day why he
made whatever decision he made.

I'm thinking that this 'I need to be sure..' thing is more about
trying to remain a part of his life or in on the decision-making
more than anything else. It really makes no sense otherwise.


Tracey

Paula wrote:
Agreed, but if the choice is made based upon what his wife wants rather than how he feels about our child it has different implications to our child (and her future feelings about her father).

Which has nothing to do with you. This is between your daughter and
her father.


Tracey

On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 00:52:20 GMT, Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote:
Paula wrote: This is it exactly. I want him to be a part of her life if he CHOOSES to do so. I have concerns about him making that choice based on what his wife wants. I guess I have no control over that, and if he makes a choice that he regrets, it was his choice. But what if my daughter also regrets it ... I feel like I need to be sure it's _his_ choice, for her.I really think you need to examine this a bit. For a couple of reasons.

I strongly believe that Paula needs to stop thinking about this man's
choices and begin to think of her own. She's waiting for him to
decide whether or not he wants her - Paula, *you* don't want *him* -
he's your past bad relationships redux. Mulling over his
feelings/choices/reasons only serves to keep you emotionally attached
to a bad situation.

The father of this child is a bum, like some of your other boyfriends
- sorry, but it's true. Considering his motivations, family life,
etc., is so self-defeating and of no consequence. It matters not what
this man thinks, what he chooses or why he chooses it. You need to
make your own choices-- get rid of the guy, to start--and stick to
them.

Go to court regarding the need for finances and visitation. Get a
schedule, appointed to you, and do it. But have no personal
relationship. You can't - I mean it literally; there is no way to
have a personal relationship with him.

Therefore, his choices, feelings, actions, reasons are moot. Just
make your own. Pull yourself together, for you and the baby - get out
of the bad relationship, go to court if you so choose, and get this
man and his family out of your life. All the rest is circular
thinking and self-serving, though unintentionally so, nitpicking so
you can continue to dream about the man.

He so does not deserve the love you lavish upon him. You said you
want a good guy. He isn't it.

shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) shared the following perspective
and opinions:
I suggest you move away. That will force him to make not only achoice, but an effort to enforce that choice. I.e., by arranging tocome visit or fly his daughter back for a visit. If he makes such aneffort, you will have more confidence that he's doing so by his ownchoice, and no other reason such as guilt.By removing yourself and your daughter from the situation, he willalso have some breathing room to figure out whether his marriage issalvagable or not. That is the first question at hand.

While I agree that moving, in theory, is an option. In reality, it is
not. I grew up in this area; my family is here. Removing myself and
my daughter from our entire support system would not be a wise choice,
IMO.
If he was to choose to stay married and co-parent with you, he'll needto do so from a position of strength within his marriage. If thatbecomes the case, it is in your daughter's best interest if he canheal that relationship and form some sort of understanding with hiswife. OTOH, if he was to choose to leave his marriage and join you andyour daughter, it will still serve him and you well if he can exit asgracefully as possible, tying up those issues and coming to terms withhis family, and hopefully spending some time on his own healing andanalyzing his role in the matter.

Totally agree with all of this.

Paula

"Now the peace you will find, in your own you have found,
the lights of the city are the stars on the ground.
'I may not be a quaalude living in a speed zone,'
But I could be restful, I could be someone's home,
if I fell down"
When All the Stars Were Falling - Lisa Loeb


** remove NOBS_ to email me **

How is your family supporting you? If you have them, you don't need this man
in your daughter's life, so you?
What does your family think of your situation?

"Paula" <luvnmom627@NOBS_hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:vmpnb0ti4sntr2njl4g0u5h201fd6dq2k2@4ax.com... shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) shared the following perspective and opinions:I suggest you move away. That will force him to make not only achoice, but an effort to enforce that choice. I.e., by arranging tocome visit or fly his daughter back for a visit. If he makes such aneffort, you will have more confidence that he's doing so by his ownchoice, and no other reason such as guilt.

She doesn't want to take a chance, because she probably knows he will not
make the effort.
By removing yourself and your daughter from the situation, he willalso have some breathing room to figure out whether his marriage issalvagable or not. That is the first question at hand. While I agree that moving, in theory, is an option. In reality, it is not. I grew up in this area; my family is here. Removing myself and my daughter from our entire support system would not be a wise choice, IMO.If he was to choose to stay married and co-parent with you, he'll needto do so from a position of strength within his marriage. If thatbecomes the case, it is in your daughter's best interest if he canheal that relationship and form some sort of understanding with hiswife. OTOH, if he was to choose to leave his marriage and join you andyour daughter, it will still serve him and you well if he can exit asgracefully as possible, tying up those issues and coming to terms withhis family, and hopefully spending some time on his own healing andanalyzing his role in the matter. Totally agree with all of this. Paula "Now the peace you will find, in your own you have found, the lights of the city are the stars on the ground. 'I may not be a quaalude living in a speed zone,' But I could be restful, I could be someone's home, if I fell down" When All the Stars Were Falling - Lisa Loeb ** remove NOBS_ to email me **

I would never let the child have visitation with this guy and his family.
I'd be afraid the wife or other kids would abuse her, say mean things, etc.


"Jennifer" <poetlariat1@yahoo.kom> wrote in message
news:65496f1facfb512c863da96e22b2718c@news.teranew s.com... On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 00:52:20 GMT, Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote:Paula wrote: This is it exactly. I want him to be a part of her life if he CHOOSES to do so. I have concerns about him making that choice based on what his wife wants. I guess I have no control over that, and if he makes a choice that he regrets, it was his choice. But what if my daughter also regrets it ... I feel like I need to be sure it's _his_ choice, for her.I really think you need to examine this a bit. For a couple of reasons. I strongly believe that Paula needs to stop thinking about this man's choices and begin to think of her own. She's waiting for him to decide whether or not he wants her - Paula, *you* don't want *him* - he's your past bad relationships redux. Mulling over his feelings/choices/reasons only serves to keep you emotionally attached to a bad situation. The father of this child is a bum, like some of your other boyfriends - sorry, but it's true. Considering his motivations, family life, etc., is so self-defeating and of no consequence. It matters not what this man thinks, what he chooses or why he chooses it. You need to make your own choices-- get rid of the guy, to start--and stick to them. Go to court regarding the need for finances and visitation. Get a schedule, appointed to you, and do it. But have no personal relationship. You can't - I mean it literally; there is no way to have a personal relationship with him. Therefore, his choices, feelings, actions, reasons are moot. Just make your own. Pull yourself together, for you and the baby - get out of the bad relationship, go to court if you so choose, and get this man and his family out of your life. All the rest is circular thinking and self-serving, though unintentionally so, nitpicking so you can continue to dream about the man. He so does not deserve the love you lavish upon him. You said you want a good guy. He isn't it.

In article <8D4vc.5129$pm1.922@newssvr32.news.prodigy.com>,
"nbtstat -an" <user@salvia.edu> wrote:
How is your family supporting you? If you have them, you don't need this man in your daughter's life, so you? What does your family think of your situation?

I suspect she's referring to emotional and social support -- not
financial support.

As someone who has never been able to live near family since my children
were born, I KNOW how valuable THAT support could be! I can't imagine
moving away from THAT support system as a single parent. It was hard
enough with a partner.

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

"dragonlady" <mehouck@REMOVEpacbell.net> wrote in message
news:mehouck-583CD0.12331801062004@news.SF.sbcglobal.net... In article <8D4vc.5129$pm1.922@newssvr32.news.prodigy.com>, "nbtstat -an" <user@salvia.edu> wrote: How is your family supporting you? If you have them, you don't need this
man in your daughter's life, so you? What does your family think of your situation? I suspect she's referring to emotional and social support -- not financial support. As someone who has never been able to live near family since my children were born, I KNOW how valuable THAT support could be! I can't imagine moving away from THAT support system as a single parent. It was hard enough with a partner.


Amen, sister.

"Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> shared the following
perspective and opinions:
"dragonlady" <mehouck@REMOVEpacbell.net> wrote in messagenews:mehouck-583CD0.12331801062004@news.SF.sbcglobal.net... In article <8D4vc.5129$pm1.922@newssvr32.news.prodigy.com>, "nbtstat -an" <user@salvia.edu> wrote: How is your family supporting you? If you have them, you don't need thisman in your daughter's life, so you? What does your family think of your situation? I suspect she's referring to emotional and social support -- not financial support. As someone who has never been able to live near family since my children were born, I KNOW how valuable THAT support could be! I can't imagine moving away from THAT support system as a single parent. It was hard enough with a partner.Amen, sister.

I will second that ... Amen, sister! My family does not provide
financial support, but the emotional and social support is invaluable.

Paula

"Now the peace you will find, in your own you have found,
the lights of the city are the stars on the ground.
'I may not be a quaalude living in a speed zone,'
But I could be restful, I could be someone's home,
if I fell down"
When All the Stars Were Falling - Lisa Loeb


** remove NOBS_ to email me **

"nbtstat -an" <user@salvia.edu> shared the following perspective and
opinions:
I would never let the child have visitation with this guy and his family.I'd be afraid the wife or other kids would abuse her, say mean things, etc.

That has been, and may continue to be, a major concern of mine. If it
becomes an issue (meaning I have serious misgivings that it is
actually occurring), I will ask the court to intervene for her saftey.
I don't think that will be necessary ... I trust that he will step in
and see that it doesn't happen (by getting them into counseling or not
putting her in the situation).

Paula

"Now the peace you will find, in your own you have found,
the lights of the city are the stars on the ground.
'I may not be a quaalude living in a speed zone,'
But I could be restful, I could be someone's home,
if I fell down"
When All the Stars Were Falling - Lisa Loeb


** remove NOBS_ to email me **

"nbtstat -an" <user@salvia.edu> shared the following perspective and
opinions:
She doesn't want to take a chance, because she probably knows he will notmake the effort.

Please don't speak for me. I am watching the thread and will reply
when I have something to say.

I cannot move, so the point is moot. But in case someone cares, if I
needed a geographical change to resolve this (read: get away from
him), I would. And I believe that he would make the effort to see
her.

Paula

"Now the peace you will find, in your own you have found,
the lights of the city are the stars on the ground.
'I may not be a quaalude living in a speed zone,'
But I could be restful, I could be someone's home,
if I fell down"
When All the Stars Were Falling - Lisa Loeb


** remove NOBS_ to email me **

On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 00:54:15 GMT, Paula <luvnmom627@NOBS_hotmail.com>
wrote:
I will second that ... Amen, sister! My family does not providefinancial support, but the emotional and social support is invaluable.

If it's that invaluable, what are you doing here looking for others'
perspectives?

Frank <no-email@mungledmail.corn> shared the following perspective and
opinions:
On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 00:54:15 GMT, Paula <luvnmom627@NOBS_hotmail.com>wrote:I will second that ... Amen, sister! My family does not providefinancial support, but the emotional and social support is invaluable.If it's that invaluable, what are you doing here looking for others'perspectives?

My sister is one of only 2 members that know that her father is
married. I wasn't talking about support regarding this situation; I
was talking about support for a single parent.

I didn't come here looking for support and have found much more than I
ever would have expected. I want to thank you all (well, most of you
anyway) for that.

I came here looking for unbiased (and also biased from having
experienced something similar) opinions from all sides of the matter,
and that is what I've gotten.

Paula

"Now the peace you will find, in your own you have found,
the lights of the city are the stars on the ground.
'I may not be a quaalude living in a speed zone,'
But I could be restful, I could be someone's home,
if I fell down"
When All the Stars Were Falling - Lisa Loeb


** remove NOBS_ to email me **

Nan <nlb63@yahoo.com> shared the following perspective and opinions:
On Mon, 31 May 2004 21:50:19 GMT, Paula <luvnmom627@NOBS_hotmail.com>wrote:This was only suggested about 10 days ago (after the month of notseeing her which resulted in him being depressed and hinting atsuicidal thoughts occasionally). I think he's got a little bit moretime before it's so telling.How long? a month? 6 months? a year?I really hate to say this, but he really seems to be playing you likea violin. 10 days is plenty of time to discuss something with someonehe sees day in and day out, especially when it's a big issue. Itsounds to me like he's avoiding it.

I'd venture to guess that he was ... waiting until she was in a place
that hearing it wouldn't be so hard.

He spoke to her this past weekend. He told her that he cannot cut
contact with our child ... both for her and for him. He also told her
that we'd had the paternity papers (to get his name on her birth
certificate) drawn up and would be signing them soon.

I'll admit that he procrastinates, but there are a lot of people who
will drag their feet when they know what they have to do (for
themselves or someone else) will not be what a loved one wants.

Paula

"Now the peace you will find, in your own you have found,
the lights of the city are the stars on the ground.
'I may not be a quaalude living in a speed zone,'
But I could be restful, I could be someone's home,
if I fell down"
When All the Stars Were Falling - Lisa Loeb


** remove NOBS_ to email me **

In article <87052e8a8a302febe58763c912adc0e5@news.teranews.com>,
Frank <no-email@mungledmail.corn> wrote:
On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 00:54:15 GMT, Paula <luvnmom627@NOBS_hotmail.com> wrote:I will second that ... Amen, sister! My family does not providefinancial support, but the emotional and social support is invaluable. If it's that invaluable, what are you doing here looking for others' perspectives?

Why on earth would someone NOT ask for additional points of view?
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 12:01:01 GMT, Paula <luvnmom627@NOBS_hotmail.com>
wrote:
Nan <nlb63@yahoo.com> shared the following perspective and opinions:On Mon, 31 May 2004 21:50:19 GMT, Paula <luvnmom627@NOBS_hotmail.com>wrote:This was only suggested about 10 days ago (after the month of notseeing her which resulted in him being depressed and hinting atsuicidal thoughts occasionally). I think he's got a little bit moretime before it's so telling.How long? a month? 6 months? a year?I really hate to say this, but he really seems to be playing you likea violin. 10 days is plenty of time to discuss something with someonehe sees day in and day out, especially when it's a big issue. Itsounds to me like he's avoiding it.I'd venture to guess that he was ... waiting until she was in a placethat hearing it wouldn't be so hard.

I can understand his thinking that way, but honestly... in situations
like this, there never is a better time to give bad news to someone.
He spoke to her this past weekend. He told her that he cannot cutcontact with our child ... both for her and for him. He also told herthat we'd had the paternity papers (to get his name on her birthcertificate) drawn up and would be signing them soon.

Okay, my bit of advice here is that you need to make sure you realize
his actions are going to benefit him, as well as you and your
daughter. If you look at this as a selfless act, I'm afraid you may
be hurt later.
Additionally, I'd suggest you hold off until you decide how you want
to proceed wrt your "relationship" with him.
If you make everything legal, you won't be able to easily walk out on
his life.
I'll admit that he procrastinates, but there are a lot of people whowill drag their feet when they know what they have to do (forthemselves or someone else) will not be what a loved one wants.

True.

Nan

Nan <nlb63@yahoo.com> shared the following perspective and opinions:
On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 12:01:01 GMT, Paula <luvnmom627@NOBS_hotmail.com>wrote:He spoke to her this past weekend. He told her that he cannot cutcontact with our child ... both for her and for him. He also told herthat we'd had the paternity papers (to get his name on her birthcertificate) drawn up and would be signing them soon.Okay, my bit of advice here is that you need to make sure you realizehis actions are going to benefit him, as well as you and yourdaughter. If you look at this as a selfless act, I'm afraid you maybe hurt later.Additionally, I'd suggest you hold off until you decide how you wantto proceed wrt your "relationship" with him.If you make everything legal, you won't be able to easily walk out onhis life.

We are only making him legally recognized as her father (for social
security purposes should something happen to him) and having sole
custody assigned to me. We are not stipulating any visitation or
child support.

While in a general sense, I agree with what you say. I think that he
will not force the issue. If I tell him to leave us alone, he will.

Paula

"Now the peace you will find, in your own you have found,
the lights of the city are the stars on the ground.
'I may not be a quaalude living in a speed zone,'
But I could be restful, I could be someone's home,
if I fell down"
When All the Stars Were Falling - Lisa Loeb


** remove NOBS_ to email me **

On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 17:44:25 GMT, Paula <luvnmom627@NOBS_hotmail.com>
wrote:
Nan <nlb63@yahoo.com> sharedOkay, my bit of advice here is that you need to make sure you realizehis actions are going to benefit him, as well as you and yourdaughter. If you look at this as a selfless act, I'm afraid you maybe hurt later.Additionally, I'd suggest you hold off until you decide how you wantto proceed wrt your "relationship" with him.If you make everything legal, you won't be able to easily walk out onhis life.We are only making him legally recognized as her father (for socialsecurity purposes should something happen to him) and having solecustody assigned to me. We are not stipulating any visitation orchild support.

May I ask why you're not setting up child support? Your daughter
deserves that from him.
While in a general sense, I agree with what you say. I think that hewill not force the issue. If I tell him to leave us alone, he will.

I hope you're right. However, in many of your postings, it's clear
he's being manipulative, in order to keep you on the side.

Sorry, but that's been apparent to me from the first post you've made.

Nan

On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 14:06:32 -0500, "Paula" <luvnmom627@hotmail.com>
wrote:
"Nan" <nlb63@yahoo.com> wrote in messagenews:f47sb0l7agh92rvl2ic7vce8cupe51b08g@4ax .com... On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 17:44:25 GMT, Paula <luvnmom627@NOBS_hotmail.com> wrote:We are only making him legally recognized as her father (for socialsecurity purposes should something happen to him) and having solecustody assigned to me. We are not stipulating any visitation orchild support. May I ask why you're not setting up child support? Your daughter deserves that from him.She is getting child support from him (and has been since she wasabout 4 months old). As we have been able to work this outbetween ourselves, we don't feel the need to bring the court intosomething that we can handle.

From someone who's BTDT, proceed with caution. He can stop his
contribution at any time he feels moved to do so. Is she covered by
his medical insurance? She should be.
While in a general sense, I agree with what you say. I think that hewill not force the issue. If I tell him to leave us alone, he will. I hope you're right. However, in many of your postings, it's clear he's being manipulative, in order to keep you on the side. Sorry, but that's been apparent to me from the first post you've made.No need to apologize, I'll agree that it's possible that he's beingdeliberately manipulative (and have thought so many times).Remember, though, that this is only a newsgroup and you are onlyhearing my POV on the matter. As I said with the "suicidalthoughts" matter, I cannot say what is going on in this man's head.

Yes, I understand the POV issue. But yours is not an uncommon
situation, either. For your own protection and that of your daughter,
you do need to know what is going on in his head. Being taken by
surprise if someone makes a move you're not expecting is quite a
shock.

Nan

Paula <luvnmom627@NOBS_hotmail.com> wrote in
news:234sb09p65t6qblgpe95mjtjmfck6k5tnp@4ax.com:
Nan <nlb63@yahoo.com> shared the following perspective and opinions:On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 12:01:01 GMT, Paula<luvnmom627@NOBS_hotmail.com> wrote:He spoke to her this past weekend. He told her that hecannot cut contact with our child ... both for her and forhim. He also told her that we'd had the paternity papers(to get his name on her birth certificate) drawn up andwould be signing them soon.Okay, my bit of advice here is that you need to make sureyou realize his actions are going to benefit him, as wellas you and your daughter. If you look at this as aselfless act, I'm afraid you may be hurt later.Additionally, I'd suggest you hold off until you decide howyou want to proceed wrt your "relationship" with him.If you make everything legal, you won't be able to easilywalk out on his life. We are only making him legally recognized as her father (for social security purposes should something happen to him) and having sole custody assigned to me. We are not stipulating any visitation or child support.

but, should he choose to do so, he can take you to court &
have you declared unfit (you are seeing a psychologist. you
obviously have mental issues...). he could gain custody &
*not* allow you visitation. granted, it's a bit far-fetched,
but it's possible.
lee

"Nan" <nlb63@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f47sb0l7agh92rvl2ic7vce8cupe51b08g@4ax.com... On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 17:44:25 GMT, Paula <luvnmom627@NOBS_hotmail.com> wrote:We are only making him legally recognized as her father (for socialsecurity purposes should something happen to him) and having solecustody assigned to me. We are not stipulating any visitation orchild support. May I ask why you're not setting up child support? Your daughter deserves that from him.

She is getting child support from him (and has been since she was
about 4 months old). As we have been able to work this out
between ourselves, we don't feel the need to bring the court into
something that we can handle.
While in a general sense, I agree with what you say. I think that hewill not force the issue. If I tell him to leave us alone, he will. I hope you're right. However, in many of your postings, it's clear he's being manipulative, in order to keep you on the side. Sorry, but that's been apparent to me from the first post you've made.

No need to apologize, I'll agree that it's possible that he's being
deliberately manipulative (and have thought so many times).
Remember, though, that this is only a newsgroup and you are only
hearing my POV on the matter. As I said with the "suicidal
thoughts" matter, I cannot say what is going on in this man's head.

Paula

"Nan" <nlb63@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mp8sb05pjf6e5cfns5aph01b3elgrj33u4@4ax.com... On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 14:06:32 -0500, "Paula" <luvnmom627@hotmail.com> wrote:She is getting child support from him (and has been since she wasabout 4 months old). As we have been able to work this outbetween ourselves, we don't feel the need to bring the court intosomething that we can handle. From someone who's BTDT, proceed with caution. He can stop his contribution at any time he feels moved to do so. Is she covered by his medical insurance? She should be.

Yes, he can. And if he does (and I still need his contribution), I will
go back to court and have an order officially entered. He knows that
I will do this if necessary. I understand that it will take a couple of
months but feel that keeping the state out of it is a better way to go.

No, she is on my insurance. It's easier for me that way - I don't
have to keep track of the rules for 2 insurance plans.

I don't think he would stop paying her support. We've used an
online calculator to estimate what the state would award. I was
only $20 off in my guesstimate. My number also did not include
any reimbursement for day-care expenses or insurance ... so the
state will probably order more than what he's been paying. I
honestly don't think he'll rock the boat on this one.
No need to apologize, I'll agree that it's possible that he's beingdeliberately manipulative (and have thought so many times).Remember, though, that this is only a newsgroup and you are onlyhearing my POV on the matter. As I said with the "suicidalthoughts" matter, I cannot say what is going on in this man's head. Yes, I understand the POV issue. But yours is not an uncommon situation, either. For your own protection and that of your daughter, you do need to know what is going on in his head. Being taken by surprise if someone makes a move you're not expecting is quite a shock.

I try ... but I can't wear myself out trying to figure out what he's
thinking either.

I am typically of the mindset "Prepare for the worst and hope for
the best". It tends to serve me well (other than those people who
think I'm too doom and gloom).

Paula

On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 14:24:52 -0500, "Paula" <luvnmom627@hotmail.com>
wrote:
"Nan" <nlb63@yahoo.com> wrote in messagenews:mp8sb05pjf6e5cfns5aph01b3elgrj33u4@4ax .com... On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 14:06:32 -0500, "Paula" <luvnmom627@hotmail.com> wrote:She is getting child support from him (and has been since she wasabout 4 months old). As we have been able to work this outbetween ourselves, we don't feel the need to bring the court intosomething that we can handle. From someone who's BTDT, proceed with caution. He can stop his contribution at any time he feels moved to do so. Is she covered by his medical insurance? She should be.Yes, he can. And if he does (and I still need his contribution), I willgo back to court and have an order officially entered. He knows thatI will do this if necessary. I understand that it will take a couple ofmonths but feel that keeping the state out of it is a better way to go.

Oh, okay. I would, however, suggest you stop thinking in terms of,
"if I still need his contribution". Unless he becomes violent or
threatens your existence, then make him pay, always. It's not your
right to take that away from your daughter, imo.
No, she is on my insurance. It's easier for me that way - I don'thave to keep track of the rules for 2 insurance plans.

I understand.
I don't think he would stop paying her support. We've used anonline calculator to estimate what the state would award. I wasonly $20 off in my guesstimate. My number also did not includeany reimbursement for day-care expenses or insurance ... so thestate will probably order more than what he's been paying. Ihonestly don't think he'll rock the boat on this one.No need to apologize, I'll agree that it's possible that he's beingdeliberately manipulative (and have thought so many times).Remember, though, that this is only a newsgroup and you are onlyhearing my POV on the matter. As I said with the "suicidalthoughts" matter, I cannot say what is going on in this man's head. Yes, I understand the POV issue. But yours is not an uncommon situation, either. For your own protection and that of your daughter, you do need to know what is going on in his head. Being taken by surprise if someone makes a move you're not expecting is quite a shock.I try ... but I can't wear myself out trying to figure out what he'sthinking either.I am typically of the mindset "Prepare for the worst and hope forthe best". It tends to serve me well (other than those people whothink I'm too doom and gloom).

:-)
Hopefully he's understanding that everything is in his favor atm, and
it wouldn't be wise to rock the boat.

Nan

"Paula" <luvnmom627@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:40be2449$1_5@newsfeed.slurp.net... "Nan" <nlb63@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:f47sb0l7agh92rvl2ic7vce8cupe51b08g@4ax.com... On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 17:44:25 GMT, Paula <luvnmom627@NOBS_hotmail.com> wrote:We are only making him legally recognized as her father (for socialsecurity purposes should something happen to him) and having solecustody assigned to me. We are not stipulating any visitation orchild support. May I ask why you're not setting up child support? Your daughter deserves that from him. She is getting child support from him (and has been since she was about 4 months old). As we have been able to work this out between ourselves, we don't feel the need to bring the court into something that we can handle.


This is a very complex thread. I have stayed out of it for the most part.
But I have to comment on this. Others think, and I concur, that this guy is
jerking you around so he can keep you on the side. Will this equitable
behavior on his part continue if you pull the plug on the relationship?
Personally, I would not bank on it.
While in a general sense, I agree with what you say. I think that hewill not force the issue. If I tell him to leave us alone, he will. I hope you're right. However, in many of your postings, it's clear he's being manipulative, in order to keep you on the side. Sorry, but that's been apparent to me from the first post you've made. No need to apologize, I'll agree that it's possible that he's being deliberately manipulative (and have thought so many times). Remember, though, that this is only a newsgroup and you are only hearing my POV on the matter. As I said with the "suicidal thoughts" matter, I cannot say what is going on in this man's head. Paula

Paula wrote:
I am typically of the mindset "Prepare for the worst and hope for the best". It tends to serve me well (other than those people who think I'm too doom and gloom).

Hi Paula,

I've not responded yet to the thread but I have been following it. I feel
that I should mention one scenario that I haven't seen discussed yet. This
guy and his wife reconcile and sue for custody of your daughter. Make sure
you are not creating any situation that would be to his favor if he were to
decide to do that. I'm not even sure what those situations might be but I
would consult with an attorney in the field if I were you. It seems
unlikely but I have seen this happen in real life and it seemed even less
likely then.

--
Nikki

"Nikki" <kavanagh@iw.net> wrote in message
news:z_WdnThKY748oyPdRVn-hw@prairiewave.com...
I feel that I should mention one scenario that I haven't seen discussed yet.
This guy and his wife reconcile and sue for custody of your daughter. Make
sure you are not creating any situation that would be to his favor if he were
to decide to do that. I'm not even sure what those situations might be but I would consult with an attorney in the field if I were you. It seems unlikely but I have seen this happen in real life and it seemed even less likely then.

I've thought of that ... and frankly, it scares the sh*t out of me. I've
discussed it with my attorney, and he doesn't think there's reason to be
terribly concerned. I also do not think that this man would do that. He
knows how strongly I feel about her and what it would do to me to have
him try to take her away.

The fact that I'm seeing a counselor would make grounds for her removal.
I'm not as emotionally damaged as some here would think ... and have
suggested. As stated in another post, I am the only full-time parent that
she's ever known. Her father would have to be MUCH more involved
than he has been to this point or I would have to put her in some serious
physical or emotional danger for the court to rip her from the arms of
such a loving parent.

She's happy and healthy. She has a loving extended family. I provide for
her needs and the majority of her wants (or I guess more accurately at this
age, my wants for her - toys and such). There is no reason for a judge
to even consider taking her from my care.

Thank you for the new subject, though!
Paula

"Paula" <luvnmom627@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:40be417d_3@newsfeed.slurp.net...
The fact that I'm seeing a counselor would make grounds for her removal.

Make that "would not make". Fingers going faster than the eyes.

On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 16:15:12 -0500, "Paula" <luvnmom627@hotmail.com>
wrote:
"Paula" <luvnmom627@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:40be417d_3@newsfeed.slurp.net... The fact that I'm seeing a counselor would make grounds for her removal.Make that "would not make". Fingers going faster than the eyes.

Glad you corrected that, as I was going to comment ;-)

Seeing a counselor does not make one unfit, nor does it necessarily
give the other parent any fuel against you.

Nan

"Paula" <luvnmom627@NOBS_hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:234sb09p65t6qblgpe95mjtjmfck6k5tnp@4ax.com... Nan <nlb63@yahoo.com> shared the following perspective and opinions:On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 12:01:01 GMT, Paula <luvnmom627@NOBS_hotmail.com>wrote:He spoke to her this past weekend. He told her that he cannot cutcontact with our child ... both for her and for him. He also told herthat we'd had the paternity papers (to get his name on her birthcertificate) drawn up and would be signing them soon.Okay, my bit of advice here is that you need to make sure you realizehis actions are going to benefit him, as well as you and yourdaughter. If you look at this as a selfless act, I'm afraid you maybe hurt later.Additionally, I'd suggest you hold off until you decide how you wantto proceed wrt your "relationship" with him.If you make everything legal, you won't be able to easily walk out onhis life. We are only making him legally recognized as her father (for social security purposes should something happen to him) and having sole custody assigned to me.

?? Isn't sole custody assigned to you if the father is unknown? If that's
what you want, why the paternity papers? If he's legally recognized as the
father, wouldn't sole custody be more difficult to maintain? If he's
signing away his rights, why is he signing paternity papers? That's
something I think he'd do if he *wanted* custody.

"Paula" <luvnmom627@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:40be2895_4@newsfeed.slurp.net... No, she is on my insurance. It's easier for me that way - I don't have to keep track of the rules for 2 insurance plans.

???? That's strange logic. It would be better to be on 2 insurance plans,
unless it's more expensive for you. That way, if one insurance plan doesn't
cover something, the other one will. If you both have the same insurance,
she would be dual covered, all the better.

"Paula" <luvnmom627@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:40be417d_3@newsfeed.slurp.net... "Nikki" <kavanagh@iw.net> wrote in message news:z_WdnThKY748oyPdRVn-hw@prairiewave.com... I feel that I should mention one scenario that I haven't seen discussed yet. This guy and his wife reconcile and sue for custody of your daughter. Make sure you are not creating any situation that would be to his favor if he were to decide to do that. I'm not even sure what those situations might be but
I would consult with an attorney in the field if I were you. It seems unlikely but I have seen this happen in real life and it seemed even
less likely then. I've thought of that ... and frankly, it scares the sh*t out of me. I've discussed it with my attorney, and he doesn't think there's reason to be terribly concerned. I also do not think that this man would do that. He knows how strongly I feel about her and what it would do to me to have him try to take her away.

You should proceed to prevent him from being able to do that. Don't leave
the doors wide open and hope he never does that, thinking he's the type who
never will.

"toypup" <toypuppy@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:ZMrvc.33756$3x.21214@attbi_s54... "Paula" <luvnmom627@NOBS_hotmail.com> wrote in message news:234sb09p65t6qblgpe95mjtjmfck6k5tnp@4ax.com... We are only making him legally recognized as her father (for social security purposes should something happen to him) and having sole custody assigned to me. ?? Isn't sole custody assigned to you if the father is unknown? If
that's what you want, why the paternity papers? If he's legally recognized as
the father, wouldn't sole custody be more difficult to maintain? If he's signing away his rights, why is he signing paternity papers? That's something I think he'd do if he *wanted* custody.

Yes, if there is no legally recognized father, the mother automatically
gets sole custody.

Why would sole custody be more difficult to maintain with him
legally recognized?

He's not signing away his rights ... he's gaining them by being legally
recognized. Just because I have sole custody now, it doesn't mean
that it can't be changed to joint (or even sole for him) at some point
in the future.

He doesn't want custody ... not right now within his marriage anyway.
He describes me as a "great" mother and believes that the best place
for our child is in my care (since *our* care is not an option at the
moment). He is fully supportive of my having sole custody ... which
makes sense since I've had it from day 1 anyway.

The main purpose of this was to get her legally recognized as his child
so that if something happens to him she can draw a social security
survivor benefit to help replace the lost child support. Doing this now
prevents the situation in which I would have to get the court to order a
DNA sample (after his death, but before burial) to get the benefit for
her.

Paula

"Paula" <luvnmom627@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:40be4c40_4@newsfeed.slurp.net... "toypup" <toypuppy@comcast.net> wrote in message news:ZMrvc.33756$3x.21214@attbi_s54... "Paula" <luvnmom627@NOBS_hotmail.com> wrote in message news:234sb09p65t6qblgpe95mjtjmfck6k5tnp@4ax.com... We are only making him legally recognized as her father (for social security purposes should something happen to him) and having sole custody assigned to me. ?? Isn't sole custody assigned to you if the father is unknown? If that's what you want, why the paternity papers? If he's legally recognized as the father, wouldn't sole custody be more difficult to maintain? If he's signing away his rights, why is he signing paternity papers? That's something I think he'd do if he *wanted* custody. Yes, if there is no legally recognized father, the mother automatically gets sole custody. Why would sole custody be more difficult to maintain with him legally recognized?

Just thinking if he wanted custody later, having paternity papers would make
it more difficult for you to have sole custody.
He's not signing away his rights ... he's gaining them by being legally recognized. Just because I have sole custody now, it doesn't mean that it can't be changed to joint (or even sole for him) at some point in the future.

Right. You have to watch out for that.
He doesn't want custody ... not right now within his marriage anyway.

Not right now. What about later?
He describes me as a "great" mother and believes that the best place for our child is in my care (since *our* care is not an option at the moment). He is fully supportive of my having sole custody ... which makes sense since I've had it from day 1 anyway.

Right now he is, but maybe later he will change his mind and you've made his
hand stronger. He's got paternity papers, he pays child support, he visits
child. You have seen counselors, mentally unstable. He could rip her away
from you when his situation changes. Watch out for that.
The main purpose of this was to get her legally recognized as his child so that if something happens to him she can draw a social security survivor benefit to help replace the lost child support. Doing this now prevents the situation in which I would have to get the court to order a DNA sample (after his death, but before burial) to get the benefit for her.

Okay, I get that part.

"toypup" <toypuppy@comcast.net> shared the following perspective and
opinions:
"Paula" <luvnmom627@hotmail.com> wrote in messagenews:40be4c40_4@newsfeed.slurp.net...
Just thinking if he wanted custody later, having paternity papers would makeit more difficult for you to have sole custody.

Signing them now would just shorten the process for him to challange
the current custody situation. He would still have every right to, if
he chose, assert his rights as her father as seek whatever he was
looking for.
He's not signing away his rights ... he's gaining them by being legally recognized. Just because I have sole custody now, it doesn't mean that it can't be changed to joint (or even sole for him) at some point in the future.Right. You have to watch out for that. He doesn't want custody ... not right now within his marriage anyway.Not right now. What about later?

It is a non-issue. If he wants to challenge custody, he has every
right to do so ... whether we sign the papers now or not.
He describes me as a "great" mother and believes that the best place for our child is in my care (since *our* care is not an option at the moment). He is fully supportive of my having sole custody ... which makes sense since I've had it from day 1 anyway.Right now he is, but maybe later he will change his mind and you've made hishand stronger. He's got paternity papers, he pays child support, he visitschild. You have seen counselors, mentally unstable. He could rip her awayfrom you when his situation changes. Watch out for that.

Again, seeing a counselor is not grounds to remove a child. I am not
medicated in any way nor do I need to be. I am not unstable. It
could not be used against me - as a main factor, anyway. There'd have
to be something much more serious going on for it to even be
considered.

Paula

"Now the peace you will find, in your own you have found,
the lights of the city are the stars on the ground.
'I may not be a quaalude living in a speed zone,'
But I could be restful, I could be someone's home,
if I fell down"
When All the Stars Were Falling - Lisa Loeb


** remove NOBS_ to email me **

In article <tKsvc.2200$uY.44@attbi_s53>,
"toypup" <toypuppy@comcast.net> wrote:
"Paula" <luvnmom627@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:40be4c40_4@newsfeed.slurp.net... "toypup" <toypuppy@comcast.net> wrote in message news:ZMrvc.33756$3x.21214@attbi_s54... "Paula" <luvnmom627@NOBS_hotmail.com> wrote in message news:234sb09p65t6qblgpe95mjtjmfck6k5tnp@4ax.com... > We are only making him legally recognized as her father (for social > security purposes should something happen to him) and having sole > custody assigned to me. ?? Isn't sole custody assigned to you if the father is unknown? If that's what you want, why the paternity papers? If he's legally recognized as the father, wouldn't sole custody be more difficult to maintain? If he's signing away his rights, why is he signing paternity papers? That's something I think he'd do if he *wanted* custody. Yes, if there is no legally recognized father, the mother automatically gets sole custody. Why would sole custody be more difficult to maintain with him legally recognized? Just thinking if he wanted custody later, having paternity papers would make it more difficult for you to have sole custody.

Why do you think that? Lots of parents have sole custody; while in
divorces these days, shared custody is a more common (preferred)
outcome, people are still granted sole custody fairly frequently, and
especially when one of the parents doesn't WANT shared custody.

The non-custodial parent doesn't give up their rights (or their
responsibilities) -- they just don't share custody. He's not signing away his rights ... he's gaining them by being legally recognized. Just because I have sole custody now, it doesn't mean that it can't be changed to joint (or even sole for him) at some point in the future. Right. You have to watch out for that. He doesn't want custody ... not right now within his marriage anyway. Not right now. What about later? He describes me as a "great" mother and believes that the best place for our child is in my care (since *our* care is not an option at the moment). He is fully supportive of my having sole custody ... which makes sense since I've had it from day 1 anyway. Right now he is, but maybe later he will change his mind and you've made his hand stronger. He's got paternity papers, he pays child support, he visits child. You have seen counselors, mentally unstable. He could rip her away from you when his situation changes. Watch out for that. The main purpose of this was to get her legally recognized as his child so that if something happens to him she can draw a social security survivor benefit to help replace the lost child support. Doing this now prevents the situation in which I would have to get the court to order a DNA sample (after his death, but before burial) to get the benefit for her. Okay, I get that part.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

"dragonlady" <mehouck@REMOVEpacbell.net> wrote in message
news:mehouck-3E632D.16291202062004@news.SF.sbcglobal.net... In article <tKsvc.2200$uY.44@attbi_s53>, "toypup" <toypuppy@comcast.net> wrote: Just thinking if he wanted custody later, having paternity papers would
make it more difficult for you to have sole custody. Why do you think that? Lots of parents have sole custody; while in divorces these days, shared custody is a more common (preferred) outcome, people are still granted sole custody fairly frequently, and especially when one of the parents doesn't WANT shared custody. The non-custodial parent doesn't give up their rights (or their responsibilities) -- they just don't share custody.

It's not that I don't think sole custody is not possible. I really don't
know the legalities of it all, just throwing things up in the air. Maybe
him having paternity papers would make it harder for OP to retain sole
custody (sounds like that's what she wants) if he wanted sole or shared
custody later.

In article <wJtvc.2633$uY.2396@attbi_s53>,
"toypup" <toypuppy@comcast.net> wrote:
"dragonlady" <mehouck@REMOVEpacbell.net> wrote in message news:mehouck-3E632D.16291202062004@news.SF.sbcglobal.net... In article <tKsvc.2200$uY.44@attbi_s53>, "toypup" <toypuppy@comcast.net> wrote: Just thinking if he wanted custody later, having paternity papers would make it more difficult for you to have sole custody. Why do you think that? Lots of parents have sole custody; while in divorces these days, shared custody is a more common (preferred) outcome, people are still granted sole custody fairly frequently, and especially when one of the parents doesn't WANT shared custody. The non-custodial parent doesn't give up their rights (or their responsibilities) -- they just don't share custody. It's not that I don't think sole custody is not possible. I really don't know the legalities of it all, just throwing things up in the air. Maybe him having paternity papers would make it harder for OP to retain sole custody (sounds like that's what she wants) if he wanted sole or shared custody later.

In the long run, the only thing NOT signing the paternity papers now
would do is slow him down a bit if that's what he wanted. He could
legally establish his paternity later. It doesn't strike me as highly
likely that he would try to get custody, and less likely that he would
get it absent her doing something dangerous or wrong. (On the other
hand, if she were to die, having the papers in place would give him
custody without him having to go to court -- not necessarily a bad
thing.)

On the other hand, establishing his legal status NOW gives her some
protections she would otherwise have to fight for -- that is, if she
decided she wanted court ordered support (a good idea, by the way) or if
she lost her job and needed her daughter to be covered on HIS insurance
or if he died and she wanted collect social security for her daughter
-- not having the signed paternity papers would slow HER down.

I think it's a good idea that she's getting it done now.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

dragonlady <mehouck@REMOVEpacbell.net> shared the following
perspective and opinions:
In the long run, the only thing NOT signing the paternity papers nowwould do is slow him down a bit if that's what he wanted. He couldlegally establish his paternity later. It doesn't strike me as highlylikely that he would try to get custody, and less likely that he wouldget it absent her doing something dangerous or wrong. (On the otherhand, if she were to die, having the papers in place would give himcustody without him having to go to court -- not necessarily a badthing.)

Actually, I have a will in place that names him as the administator of
her trust and custody with a friend (then each of my sisters in
succession). He says that he would not dispute it.
On the other hand, establishing his legal status NOW gives her someprotections she would otherwise have to fight for -- that is, if shedecided she wanted court ordered support (a good idea, by the way) or ifshe lost her job and needed her daughter to be covered on HIS insuranceor if he died and she wanted collect social security for her daughter-- not having the signed paternity papers would slow HER down.

Exactly :)
Paula

"Now the peace you will find, in your own you have found,
the lights of the city are the stars on the ground.
'I may not be a quaalude living in a speed zone,'
But I could be restful, I could be someone's home,
if I fell down"
When All the Stars Were Falling - Lisa Loeb


** remove NOBS_ to email me **

Paula wrote: "Paula" <luvnmom627@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:40be417d_3@newsfeed.slurp.net... The fact that I'm seeing a counselor would make grounds for her removal. Make that "would not make". Fingers going faster than the eyes.

No I didn't mean to imply that it would. I don't know what would matter, I
was just suggesting you speak with an attorney about it and it sounds as if
you already have. You don't have to be unfit for him to win joint custody
if he should decide to pursue that. He is the other parent and if he is
paying child support he has a right to visitation and joint custody unless
it can be proven that *he* is unfit.

You mention that he knows how much the child means to you and would not
pursue that. If he stays with his wife you also have to know her because in
the situation I was familiar with, it was the wife that urged the man to
pursue custody. There could be lots of motivations for that, some good,
some not. I think for this other woman it was a little of both.

--
Nikki
Mama to Hunter (5) and Luke (3)

On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 14:24:52 -0500, "Paula" <luvnmom627@hotmail.com>
wrote:

go back to court and have an order officially entered. He knows thatI will do this if necessary. I understand that it will take a couple ofmonths but feel that keeping the state out of it is a better way to go.

It could be more like 2 years if you live in a state like Washington.
Things might have changed, but when I was divorced, petitions to
change CS could only happen every two years. In a previous post
today, you mentioned that he had been "wishy washy" about paying
support in the past. I'm wondering if you're reluctant to get
court-ordered CS because doing so might anger him and put you in a
less favorable light to him? (Just to be clear, I believe that it's
his responsibility to pay CS and that you have every right to ensure
he does so).No, she is on my insurance. It's easier for me that way - I don'thave to keep track of the rules for 2 insurance plans.

Was this his idea? Are you absolutely SURE that his wife knows about
your child?I don't think he would stop paying her support.

Even though you admit that he's been wishy washy in the past? Wow.
Maybe I'm more skeptical than most (jump right in here, Jen, I know
you want to! LOL), but time and time again we read in ASD about
promises made during good times which are immediately null and void as
soon as one person gets ticked off. If you can get by just fine
without support, then that's great. But if you want your daughter to
have CS, then going through the courts is the way to do it.

Does he pay your support in cash? None of my business and you don't
have to answer, but I'm really suspicious that he's told you that his
wife knows but is lying.

Lauri in WA

I like my email spamless

"Nikki" <kavanagh@iw.net> wrote in message
news:z_WdnThKY748oyPdRVn-hw@prairiewave.com... Paula wrote: I am typically of the mindset "Prepare for the worst and hope for the best". It tends to serve me well (other than those people who think I'm too doom and gloom). Hi Paula, I've not responded yet to the thread but I have been following it. I feel that I should mention one scenario that I haven't seen discussed yet.
This guy and his wife reconcile and sue for custody of your daughter. Make
sure you are not creating any situation that would be to his favor if he were
to decide to do that. I'm not even sure what those situations might be but I would consult with an attorney in the field if I were you. It seems unlikely but I have seen this happen in real life and it seemed even less likely then. -- Nikki
Hi,

I've been thinking about this too. I have a friend who was married 19 years,
no children by choice. Gets pregnant at 42 by accident and the husband tells
her to have an abortion or the marriage is over. She leaves. Sets herself up
with great difficulty as single mum. Has baby with lots of health issues
early on. Allows limited access in order to get child support. Four year
later he has new relationship and now wants shared custody (Christmas
holidays, Easter, every second weekend). This woman is devastated as she has
no way of denying him this. He has more money for a court case and so she
has to allow her 4yo (who is very strongly attached to mum) to go and stay.
It came totally out of the blue.

You need to prepared for every eventuality. Things can happen when
circumstances change.
Good luck!

(If it were me I wouldn't have anything more than a father of my child
relationship!)

Liz

Lauri <res0rnlr@spamlessverizon.net> shared the following perspective
and opinions:
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 14:24:52 -0500, "Paula" <luvnmom627@hotmail.com>wrote:go back to court and have an order officially entered. He knows thatI will do this if necessary. I understand that it will take a couple ofmonths but feel that keeping the state out of it is a better way to go.It could be more like 2 years if you live in a state like Washington.Things might have changed, but when I was divorced, petitions tochange CS could only happen every two years. In a previous posttoday, you mentioned that he had been "wishy washy" about payingsupport in the past.

My attorney gave me the impression that in an initial paternity suit
with child support arrangements it could take "3 months" before I
would see any money and to be prepared for that wait. I guess it
would be a good idea to check how long it would take to modify the
situation after already establishing paternity. Since there is no
stipulation in the paperwork ... it says "reserve the matter" ... I'd
guess that it could be done more quickly, but it is just a guess. I
will call tomorrow and pose the question to him.

The wishy-washyness was asking me all the time if I needed money and
providing smaller sums on a spontaneous schedule. I explained to him
that it's best for me to budget an amount for the month (I get paid
monthly). It works out well because he gives me the support on the
1st and I get paid on the 15th. It also gets us to a set amount
rather than varying ... he probably gives me less this way (which is
fine by me, I don't feel ?endebted in any way for his generosity, if
you know what I mean). He's been very consistent since we talked
about it (not considering the last few months, he was laid off so I
tried to be flexible. He still gave me all of it - don't get the wrong
idea - just the timing was off a bit).
I'm wondering if you're reluctant to getcourt-ordered CS because doing so might anger him and put you in aless favorable light to him? (Just to be clear, I believe that it'shis responsibility to pay CS and that you have every right to ensurehe does so).

Nope. I'll tick him off if I need to ... the counselor actually
commented in my first session alone with him that he got the distinct
impression of a "mama bear" in me. I will do anything necessary to
protect my child ... there's a reason that the most dangerous creature
in the wild is a mother protecting her young!
No, she is on my insurance. It's easier for me that way - I don'thave to keep track of the rules for 2 insurance plans.Was this his idea? Are you absolutely SURE that his wife knows aboutyour child?

Nope, mine. She knows.
I don't think he would stop paying her support.Even though you admit that he's been wishy washy in the past? Wow.

see above
Maybe I'm more skeptical than most (jump right in here, Jen, I knowyou want to! LOL), but time and time again we read in ASD aboutpromises made during good times which are immediately null and void assoon as one person gets ticked off. If you can get by just finewithout support, then that's great. But if you want your daughter tohave CS, then going through the courts is the way to do it.

I don't have many doubts that his tune would change if he got ticked.
I do a pretty good job of covering my bases ... again "Prepare for the
worst, hope for the best".
Does he pay your support in cash? None of my business and you don'thave to answer, but I'm really suspicious that he's told you that hiswife knows but is lying.

She knows. Their children know, some of his family know, some of his
friends know (and knew before unless they were completely clueless).
I don't know how I can reassure you ... she knows.

Paula

"Now the peace you will find, in your own you have found,
the lights of the city are the stars on the ground.
'I may not be a quaalude living in a speed zone,'
But I could be restful, I could be someone's home,
if I fell down"
When All the Stars Were Falling - Lisa Loeb


** remove NOBS_ to email me **

"Nikki" <kavanagh@iw.net> shared the following perspective and
opinions:
Paula wrote: "Paula" <luvnmom627@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:40be417d_3@newsfeed.slurp.net... The fact that I'm seeing a counselor would make grounds for her removal. Make that "would not make". Fingers going faster than the eyes.No I didn't mean to imply that it would. I don't know what would matter, Iwas just suggesting you speak with an attorney about it and it sounds as ifyou already have. You don't have to be unfit for him to win joint custodyif he should decide to pursue that. He is the other parent and if he ispaying child support he has a right to visitation and joint custody unlessit can be proven that *he* is unfit.

Actually, paying support has nothing to do with visitation. And as
long as physical custody remains with me, I would not have a problem
with joint legal custody.
You mention that he knows how much the child means to you and would notpursue that. If he stays with his wife you also have to know her because inthe situation I was familiar with, it was the wife that urged the man topursue custody. There could be lots of motivations for that, some good,some not. I think for this other woman it was a little of both.

I've thought about that ... but a) it's not currently an issue and b)
it's not something over which I have any control.

Paula

"the heart and the mind on a parallel course
never the two shall meet
and, oh, the dissatisfied with the satisfied
everybody loves a melodrama
and the scandal of a lie -"
You and Me of the 10,000 Wars - Indigo Girls

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Paula wrote:
Actually, paying support has nothing to do with visitation. And as long as physical custody remains with me, I would not have a problem with joint legal custody.

If he has been paying child support and decides he wants joint physical
custody he'll probably get it as long as he has a decent home environment.
I don't mean to argue with you :-) You've considered and dealt with this
possibility and that is all I intended with my post.

--
Nikki

On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 19:48:53 -0500, "Nikki" <kavanagh@iw.net> wrote:
No I didn't mean to imply that it would. I don't know what would matter, I was just suggesting you speak with an attorney about it and it sounds as if you already have. You don't have to be unfit for him to win joint custody if he should decide to pursue that. He is the other parent and if he is paying child support he has a right to visitation and joint custody unless it can be proven that *he* is unfit.

In what I believe is most jurisdictions in the US, he has a right to
visitation whether he pays child support or not.

Lauri <res0rnlr@spamlessverizon.net> wrote in message news:<l10tb0lf4abu3e8kl562an1kqdnsqbblo3@4ax.com>...

I don't think he would stop paying her support. Even though you admit that he's been wishy washy in the past? Wow. Maybe I'm more skeptical than most (jump right in here, Jen, I know you want to! LOL), but time and time again we read in ASD about promises made during good times which are immediately null and void as soon as one person gets ticked off. If you can get by just fine without support, then that's great. But if you want your daughter to have CS, then going through the courts is the way to do it. Does he pay your support in cash? None of my business and you don't have to answer, but I'm really suspicious that he's told you that his wife knows but is lying. Lauri in WA


I've been staying out of this whole tangent, because I think it's
pointless. If he stops paying, she can go to court and get him to pay.
The gov't does not like to assist unwed mothers - it's standard
practice these days to go after the father and establish c.s. (I'm
assuming she's in the US, I could be wrong).

Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised, once the paternity papers are drawn
up, if the courts intervene on their own and demand that c.s. be
formally established, despite what Paula and the father have decided
privately. Particularly if Paula ever approaches the gov't for
unemployment or other assistance. For that reason, I'd urge both of
them to keep very good records of what's being paid privately.
Otherwise, the courts, if they intervene, may demand back pay. They
still may do this some day, and come up with a calculation greater
than what Paula and this man have agreed upon, but at least with
records, he will only have to come up with the difference.

When my ex and I agreed to waive c.s. between us, it was essential
that we go to court and have this formally recognized. Otherwise,
there was always the risk the courts could come back and demand
retroactive c.s. from him, despite any private agreement we have made.
Yes, we share custody and it is becoming more the standard that in
such cases c.s. is waived, but we were told that shared custody is
rare enough that there are few rules around it. If I had lost my job
and needed unemployment, the state would have every incentive to
insist he pay c.s. to me, even though we share custody.

Anyway, I'm probably the worst person to give advice about whether
Paula should take c.s. or not, as I had a lot of emotional problems
taking c.s. from my ex, and worked awfully hard to get myself into a
place where we could waive it. I hated rec'ing that check from him.
That doesn't mean my kids are suffering. Today I make the same amount
as my ex, and he is contributing 50% towards their college expenses,
which is huge. And, there have been times in recent years, when I was
unemployed, that I have gotten over my own issues long enough to
accept help from him in the form of his footing the bill for the
extras like piano and skiing lessons.

I imagine if I was in Paula's shoes, it might be awfully hard not to
feel somehow obligated to her lover due to the money he is giving her.
I imagine she's going to have a hard time viewing it as money for the
child. Money often has emotional connotations connected to it. I'd
hate to see her fool herself into thinking she needs to maintain the
romantic relationship because she's obligated due to the money he's
giving her. For that reason, I would suggest if she takes the c.s.,
she set it up formally through the state. It might be easier to view
it as for the child, and not his kindness towards her and proof of his
love for her. If that makes sense...?

In my own case, it simply became clear to me that neither my ex nor I
could move on emotionally until c.s. stopped being paid.

jen

In article <on7ub0p2an8g2fifpin3482237em7lm9io@4ax.com>, Kathy Cole says...On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 19:48:53 -0500, "Nikki" <kavanagh@iw.net> wrote: No I didn't mean to imply that it would. I don't know what would matter, I was just suggesting you speak with an attorney about it and it sounds as if you already have. You don't have to be unfit for him to win joint custody if he should decide to pursue that. He is the other parent and if he is paying child support he has a right to visitation and joint custody unless it can be proven that *he* is unfit.In what I believe is most jurisdictions in the US, he has a right tovisitation whether he pays child support or not.

Right. Child support and visitation are separate issues. Remember, visitation
is for the *child's* sake, too. It isn't a case of the parent getting to visit
if he or she pays child support, like the child is a prize. Children aren't
chattel.

Banty

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0406030541.77457b59@posting.google.c om... I've been staying out of this whole tangent, because I think it's pointless. If he stops paying, she can go to court and get him to pay. The gov't does not like to assist unwed mothers - it's standard practice these days to go after the father and establish c.s. (I'm assuming she's in the US, I could be wrong).

I am on no assistance. I work, own my home, pay my taxes and
my bills. In fact, I make enough that I don't even qualify for any of
the "child care subsidy" in my state.
Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised, once the paternity papers are drawn up, if the courts intervene on their own and demand that c.s. be formally established, despite what Paula and the father have decided privately. Particularly if Paula ever approaches the gov't for unemployment or other assistance. For that reason, I'd urge both of them to keep very good records of what's being paid privately. Otherwise, the courts, if they intervene, may demand back pay. They still may do this some day, and come up with a calculation greater than what Paula and this man have agreed upon, but at least with records, he will only have to come up with the difference.

If they do, he will have to pay it, but then I will return it to him. He's
paid support whether we have records to prove it or not.
When my ex and I agreed to waive c.s. between us, it was essential that we go to court and have this formally recognized. Otherwise, there was always the risk the courts could come back and demand retroactive c.s. from him, despite any private agreement we have made. Yes, we share custody and it is becoming more the standard that in such cases c.s. is waived, but we were told that shared custody is rare enough that there are few rules around it. If I had lost my job and needed unemployment, the state would have every incentive to insist he pay c.s. to me, even though we share custody.

It's my understanding (and maybe this is just in my state) that a parent
*cannot* waive child support. It's the right of the child and not to be
decided by the parent(s).

<...snip...> I imagine if I was in Paula's shoes, it might be awfully hard not to feel somehow obligated to her lover due to the money he is giving her. I imagine she's going to have a hard time viewing it as money for the child. Money often has emotional connotations connected to it. I'd hate to see her fool herself into thinking she needs to maintain the romantic relationship because she's obligated due to the money he's giving her. For that reason, I would suggest if she takes the c.s., she set it up formally through the state. It might be easier to view it as for the child, and not his kindness towards her and proof of his love for her. If that makes sense...?

The money that he provides is hers. Any thing other than that, yes, I
end up feeling like I owe him something for his generosity. That's why
I don't accept unless absolutely necessary.

Paula

Paula <luvnmom627@NOBS_hotmail.com> wroteYou mention that he knows how much the child means to you and would notpursue that. If he stays with his wife you also have to know her because inthe situation I was familiar with, it was the wife that urged the man topursue custody. There could be lots of motivations for that, some good,some not. I think for this other woman it was a little of both. I've thought about that ... but a) it's not currently an issue and b) it's not something over which I have any control. Paula

Someone in another ng posted a link that might be relevant to
consider:

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/198381p-171238c.html

It's about a case in NY where the judge actually is taking custody
from a perfectly fit mother, and giving it to the
married-to-someone-else father.

However, in that case, it hinges on Parental Alienation Syndrome.

Rupa

Paula <luvnmom627@hotmail.com> wrote:


: If they do, he will have to pay it, but then I will return it to him. He's
: paid support whether we have records to prove it or not.
Fair enough, but see below, this is the child's right and if you are
caught returning this money you too can be in trouble.

: It's my understanding (and maybe this is just in my state) that a parent
: *cannot* waive child support. It's the right of the child and not to be
: decided by the parent(s).
This is correct.

: The money that he provides is hers. Any thing other than that, yes, I
: end up feeling like I owe him something for his generosity. That's why
: I don't accept unless absolutely necessary.
Generosity... hmm... it seems like money wise he's generous, however, this
whole "playing two women" on his part sounds and seems rather
selfish/self-serving.



--
Pat

"Pat" <pat@gth.com> wrote in message
news:c9o4eh$4j3$4@news-int.gatech.edu... Paula <luvnmom627@hotmail.com> wrote: : If they do, he will have to pay it, but then I will return it to him.
He's : paid support whether we have records to prove it or not. Fair enough, but see below, this is the child's right and if you are caught returning this money you too can be in trouble.

I didn't mean to imply that I would return money to which she is
entitled, only money that he had already paid but of which we had
no proof of payment.
: It's my understanding (and maybe this is just in my state) that a parent : *cannot* waive child support. It's the right of the child and not to be : decided by the parent(s). This is correct.

That's what I thought. Thanks for clarifying.
: The money that he provides is hers. Any thing other than that, yes, I : end up feeling like I owe him something for his generosity. That's why : I don't accept unless absolutely necessary. Generosity... hmm... it seems like money wise he's generous, however, this whole "playing two women" on his part sounds and seems rather selfish/self-serving.

Agreed

Paula