Someone made a comment a day or two ago about how many women complain
about how their husband's don't help but it's often because the wife
is so critical that it deters them from ever wanting to help.

I have seen this happen but it's kind of a catch 22 which I understand
all too well. I am in a marriage where I am responsible for
everything in the house-except for perhaps a few things that I simply
can't reach (like our outside light bulbs, even with a small ladder,
it's too high and he is much taller than I). As I have said before,
he is the main breadwinner and he does most of the gardening- although
that is slowing down too as I take on more.

Okay, the point here is this: from time to time, my husband will do
something such as make the bed. Now, I have a question for you and I
have struggled with this. When he does make the bed, he makes it like
a 2 year old makes it. Sometimes, it's hard to tell if he really did
make the bed or perhaps he got a phone call and forgot that he was
making the bed. You know when your kids are really little and you
don't want to discourage them from doing stuff so you just "let it
be"? You know, an outfit that they put on with stripes and checks, or
how they cleaned up their face or made their bed. The worst thing to
do is say, oh my , let's do that better now. I have struggled with
myhusband over this issue. Okay,a the guy is 44. He also has an ego.
When he does something like make the bed like a bear is still lying
in it, do I actually say "thank you"??? Do I make the bed and just
shut up? Do I ask him if he is done? I have not figured out the best
way to handle a situation where I know that he did a half assed job
out of laziness.

I don't want to criticize and I want the help so it is a dilemma.
It's actually not happening right now since he is too busy to do
helping of any sort. Remember, I wake up in the morning and follow
the wake. I shut his underwear drawer, his sock drawer, close his
closet and then I put his toothbrush back in the cup. That is before
I walk downstairs and even have coffee. I can laugh at it sometimes
because it's amazing to me that at his age, he chooses to just leave a
mess. However, it's not always funny since I get to either leave it
and live with the mess or I get to do it and am sometimes resentful
feeling as if I didn't sign up for this. It's enough to clean up
after children.

Anyhow-the reason that I am bringing this up is that it's not always
because a woman is a whiner and a complainer when it comes to feeling
as if her spouse is a little bit helpless. Could it possibly be
compared to all of the jokes about how women are helpless with tools
and heavy housework type of things? I don't want to get into
stereotyping, however, in this particular case, let's see....our
daughter is nine and on Saturday morning as I was kissing them goodbye
to go see a client, he asked, "what can she have for breakfast?"
Enough said? I smiled and said, "the same foods that she has been
having for the last 9years- bye guys, have a good day :-)"

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0403082103.7ded9415@posting.google.c om... Someone made a comment a day or two ago about how many women complain about how their husband's don't help but it's often because the wife is so critical that it deters them from ever wanting to help.

*snip*

I think the stereotypes have some validity. I mean, how does a stereotype
become one?

I help out quite a bit around the house - but my wife tells me I don't make
the bed really nice, and I have no concept of the dials and settings on the
washing machine (cold/cold, with one "blub" of detergent works fine). I also
leave the upstairs cleaning (really the main floor) to her, while I keep my
basement office clean.

But my wife isn't picky - if nobody else is going to see our bed, the way I
make it is fine. Since I'm home all day, I told her I'd do all the laundry -
she politely declined, saying I could do mine, plush sheets/towels, but
she'll handle her own.

But I do *all* the guy stuff, and do it quite well. We don't have to hire
anyone for home repairs and such, because I can do it all myself (well, I
don't roof). My wife can't hammer a nail straight.

I'm sure plenty of women can do the guy stuff, but in my life, I've found
that in every relationship I have had, we've gravitated towards the more
traditional jobs.

Caren wrote:

Anyhow-the reason that I am bringing this up is that it's not always because a woman is a whiner and a complainer when it comes to feeling as if her spouse is a little bit helpless.

Whining and complaining isn't particularly attractive in a spouse but
neither is cultivating helplessness.

Could it possibly be compared to all of the jokes about how women are helpless with tools and heavy housework type of things? I don't want to get into stereotyping, however, in this particular case, let's see....our daughter is nine and on Saturday morning as I was kissing them goodbye to go see a client, he asked, "what can she have for breakfast?" Enough said?

More than enough!
I smiled and said, "the same foods that she has been having for the last 9years- bye guys, have a good day :-)"

Good response.

All I can say is that it would have driven me stark raving mad to have to
deal with that kind of professional helplessness from my husband, Caren. I
probably would have been divorced on the grounds of permanent shrewishness
because I don't think I could live with a slob and I'm almost certain a slob
would hate living with me.

I expect the same of my husband as I would of me. Clumsiness and ineptitude
while learning new skills, competence once they are mastered. I do the bulk
of domestic chores now because I'm at home and our children aren't so tiny
that there isn't time for more than looking after them and doing the cooking
and laundry. However, my husband can step in at any time and do everything
that I do.

Well, he doesn't bake, but I then I don't mow lawns! Neither of us knew how
to run a home until we learnt it on the job, so to speak. I see no reason
why one spouse (and it's not always the husband who is accused of being the
slob) should expect the other to be their servant.

Tai

"Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c2joqf$1thob2$1@ID-123442.news.uni-berlin.de...
I enjoy using the hammer drill to put up picture hooks or bathroom
fittings.

A Hammer drill? For a picture hook? sheesh.... do you use a flamethrower to
kill an ant?

women...

;)

JWB wrote: But I do *all* the guy stuff, and do it quite well. We don't have to hire anyone for home repairs and such, because I can do it all myself (well, I don't roof). My wife can't hammer a nail straight. I'm sure plenty of women can do the guy stuff, but in my life, I've found that in every relationship I have had, we've gravitated towards the more traditional jobs.

I think we overlap the traditional jobs more than many couples do and that's
even with what would appear to be a traditional marriage from the outside.
Apart from the normal household chores and childcare tasks which we both can
do equally well we both paint and decorate and look after the yard work. We
put kitset furniture together as a team and I enjoy using the hammer drill
to put up picture hooks or bathroom fittings. I have a nest of tables and a
coffee table to strip down and re-finish once the 3 year old is less hard on
the furniture with his cars and trucks and I'm looking forward to doing
that.

We do go into traditional roles for some things though. For example, since
I'm smaller and have balance problems on anything higher than a step-ladder
my husband tends to do the 'high' jobs and ones requiring more strength. On
the other hand I do all of the sewing and mending for the family. I made the
curtains for every room except the living room. We do the things we each
enjoy. My husband cooks once or twice a week because he enjoys it and I look
after the finances because I enjoy that.

Tai

JWB wrote: "Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c2joqf$1thob2$1@ID-123442.news.uni-berlin.de... I enjoy using the hammer drill to put up picture hooks or bathroom fittings. A Hammer drill? For a picture hook? sheesh.... do you use a flamethrower to kill an ant? women...
LOL

Did I mention we have double brick walls covered with solid (cement)
plaster? I can get away with those three pin hook thingies that you hammer
in for a small photo but not with anything heavy to hang. Then I've got to
get my roll of spaghetti, my stanley knife and The Big Drill.

What I'd really like is a set of spanners and screwdrivers that let me work
in tight spaces and around corners.

And why do plumbers have all the best tools? :(

Tai

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0403082103.7ded9415@posting.google.c om... Someone made a comment a day or two ago about how many women complain about how their husband's don't help but it's often because the wife is so critical that it deters them from ever wanting to help.

This is a long-winded response, Caren. :-)

The way it works here is that we each have a division of labor that suits
both our needs. For instance, I'm extremely neat, picky about appearances
(cleanliness and the like), and organizationally blessed (I just spent two
hours creating Girl Scout forms for my personal files, just for fun; enough
said). On the other hand, my husband is equally and probably more
hard-working than I; yet his concentration is on the broader projects and
not the day-to-day detail-oriented events. Were I to try to tackle his
tasks, I'd feel overwhelmed, frustrated and at a loss to figure out the best
approach. I would say that the reverse is also true. We are equally
grateful to each other to handle the sort of work the other doesn't want!

I would say that I couldn't abide being the only one responsible for running
the household. Caren, I don't see the point of your husband making the bed,
because you know you just want to get over there and straighten it out,
lol!! :-) So make the bed and just figure that's something that you want
done "your" way (i.e., no bear in it, lol). But surely there are some other
responsibilities he could shoulder that would give you some breathing room?
I think you are, like me, a SAHM (correct me if I'm wrong). I have three
little kids and a teenager, and I definitely welcome working with my DH as a
team. There is *NO WAY* I could do all this alone. But he wanted this life
as much as I did, so we don't figure either one of us *should* handle
more/most of the work.

I will say that there have been times (months, sometimes even a year or
more) when he is quite obviously doing more than his share...and then there
are other times I will be doing "more." We understand and appreciate that
it all evens out in the end, provided that we're equally committed to asking
what the other person needs--and we can offer.

My DH always gets up with the kids, makes breakfast, does all the grocery
shopping and puts things away, takes care of the kids at least 50% of the
time (he works in a home office), drives carpool when needed, hangs
pictures, vacuums, brings laundry upstairs, mows, trims the yard, keeps the
home supplied with necessary products (detergents and tons of things he
adores bringing home from BJs...the man is addicted to that place). Then he
also has larger projects. For instance, he has spent the last 8 months
building the most fantastic treehouse. It is a monstrous and gorgeous
structure, complete with a lower deck, slide, swings, skylight, upper deck
with railing...oh, and he's building pull-down sleeping bunks inside the
house part.

Yeah, what do I do...LOL!! ;-) Well, I do those things he hates and I
don't mind doing at all. I make school lunches, take care of the kids the
other 50% of the time, work in the business, drive carpool, plan the meals
and cook them (when we're not doing takeout or eating out, which we probably
do 1/2 the time), do *ALL* the laundry (and there's a ton...I happen to love
doing it), walk the dog every now and then, handle all the school and
personal paperwork, balance the business and personal books and do all
bookkeeping, research trips and make family vacation plans, supervise
homework, keep the family calendar.

Then of course the kids are responsible for a lot, too. The ones home every
day are ages 9, 9 and 5...so they do their homework, put away all their
things, set the table, clear the table, do the dishes, vacuum occasionally,
feed and water the dog, walk the dog, make their beds, brush their teeth,
put their clothes away, help do the laundry occasionally, etc. etc. When we
need help in the office, we'll ask them to help (they worked with us to fill
candy jars when we prepared them for our holiday clients).

I know something that helped was the chore charts I typed up for the kids
and taped both downstairs & on their bedroom doors. :-)

I just figure that if something is there that I need done a certain way,
then I'm going to take that over as my task. As for how the lawn looks? I
couldn't give a damn. Is that treehouse secure? Beats me, but I trust him.
:-)
I don't want to criticize and I want the help so it is a dilemma.

Right, but the things he's doing really aren't helping you. What can he do
that would truly alleviate your workload? Would he drive carpools? Do the
shopping? Give you a night or two out a week? Massage you for an hour?
:-) Be direct about what you think you would need that he can
satisfactorily offer.
It's actually not happening right now since he is too busy to do helping of any sort.

Really??? How is he too busy to help out with things that need doing around
the home? I just can't quite understand that. I'm sure you're very busy,
too...but things need to get done, and someone needs to do them. Why not
both spouses? Being the full-time provider is not, IMHO, a free pass to get
out of doing housework.
Remember, I wake up in the morning and follow the wake. I shut his underwear drawer, his sock drawer, close his closet and then I put his toothbrush back in the cup.

Follow his wake, but demand some care in return. Be the picker-upper and
the drawer-shutter and the toothbrush-putter-awayer...but what is HE doing
for YOU--not necessarily task for task, but how is he caring for your own
needs?

It's possible, of course, that he would just say, "Caren, it's nice that you
pick up my stuff, but I don't really care if you do or not. That's
something that *you* feel needs to be done. It's your priority that the
house is neat." Is that how he feels, or is he pleased that you're
straightening things??

I could write about this all night, lol...

Jennifer

> Okay, the point here is this: from time to time, my husband will do something such as make the bed. Now, I have a question for you and I have struggled with this. When he does make the bed, he makes it like a 2 year old makes it. Sometimes, it's hard to tell if he really did make the bed or perhaps he got a phone call and forgot that he was making the bed. You know when your kids are really little and you don't want to discourage them from doing stuff so you just "let it be"?

If it were me I would say "Honey, thank you so much for helping me by making
the bed. You're the best husband in the world."

SD

On 8 Mar 2004 21:03:30 -0800, caren50@msn.com (Caren) wrote:
I have seen this happen but it's kind of a catch 22 which I understandall too well. I am in a marriage where I am responsible foreverything in the house-except for perhaps a few things that I simplycan't reach (like our outside light bulbs, even with a small ladder,

You just need a bigger ladder and you'll be on your way to freedom and
self sufficiency..... After all, that's what womens lib is all about
(plus burning your bra).

Shashay Doofray wrote: Okay, the point here is this: from time to time, my husband will do something such as make the bed. Now, I have a question for you and I have struggled with this. When he does make the bed, he makes it like a 2 year old makes it. Sometimes, it's hard to tell if he really did make the bed or perhaps he got a phone call and forgot that he was making the bed. You know when your kids are really little and you don't want to discourage them from doing stuff so you just "let it be"? If it were me I would say "Honey, thank you so much for helping me by making the bed. You're the best husband in the world."

My sarcasm detector just pinned and I think there's
some smoke that just came out.

Look, I know I'm unreasonable but I grew up with too
much sarcasm; a compliment was just a lead-in to a
body punch, meant to soften me up for the follow-up.
THIS IS NOT TRUE FOR MOST PEOPLE so I am NOT a
representative sample.

A more neutral way is "Hon, if you made the bed(s),
perhaps we can work on it together. We must have
learned different ways and I'm not comfortable with
how you were taught. Please?"

BTW, as an aside, you KNOW there are asymmetries as
soon as there's a disparity in hearing the words of
"please" and "thank you" from each partner towards
the other. Those who "hold the upper hand" seldom
feel a need to say "please" or "thank you" to their
spouse since the requested attentions are *due* them.

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup@softhome.net | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0403082103.7ded9415@posting.google.c om... Someone made a comment a day or two ago about how many women complain about how their husband's don't help but it's often because the wife is so critical that it deters them from ever wanting to help. I have seen this happen but it's kind of a catch 22 which I understand all too well. I am in a marriage where I am responsible for everything in the house-except for perhaps a few things that I simply can't reach (like our outside light bulbs, even with a small ladder, it's too high and he is much taller than I). As I have said before, he is the main breadwinner and he does most of the gardening- although that is slowing down too as I take on more. Okay, the point here is this: from time to time, my husband will do something such as make the bed. Now, I have a question for you and I have struggled with this. When he does make the bed, he makes it like a 2 year old makes it. Sometimes, it's hard to tell if he really did make the bed or perhaps he got a phone call and forgot that he was making the bed. You know when your kids are really little and you don't want to discourage them from doing stuff so you just "let it be"? You know, an outfit that they put on with stripes and checks, or how they cleaned up their face or made their bed. The worst thing to do is say, oh my , let's do that better now. I have struggled with myhusband over this issue. Okay,a the guy is 44. He also has an ego. When he does something like make the bed like a bear is still lying in it, do I actually say "thank you"??? Do I make the bed and just shut up? Do I ask him if he is done? I have not figured out the best way to handle a situation where I know that he did a half assed job out of laziness.

Personally, I would just stop caring if the bed were made. BUT this is
because I do not value this particular chore. (Couldn't care less if the bed
was never made.) Other chores I have actually discussed with him that the
fact that he did it was half-assed. Way back when, he would "clean the
kitchen." Which meant putting some dishes in the dishwasher then forgetting
about it and wandering away to play video games. This was his household
contribution for the weekend. (This was before kids when we both worked,
etc..) This was his concession to the complaint that I did all the
housework. I just flat out told him it was totally lame. He said he never
learned how to clean the kitchen. I said, jeesum crow (we are from VT), you
are 30 years old. No one ever taught you how to fix the dryer, but you can
do that. No one ever taught you how to build spud guns, but you can do that.
He said I was nagging....

Skip to about 10 years later. He does a lot more housework. And I leave him
alone when he does. If he does not ALWAYS remember to wipe the counters,
then I just do it. He takes out the garbage. I do all the laundry. We have
both compromised. I have lowered my standards, and he has increased his.
Through verbal communication, including trying to find ways to communciate
that work rather than resting on each our perceived "rightness." Have the
verbal communication has to deal with HOW to communicate respectfully,
before you can even get down to the work of the issue at hand.

I don't want to criticize and I want the help so it is a dilemma. It's actually not happening right now since he is too busy to do helping of any sort. Remember, I wake up in the morning and follow the wake. I shut his underwear drawer, his sock drawer, close his closet and then I put his toothbrush back in the cup.


Don't.
That is before I walk downstairs and even have coffee. I can laugh at it sometimes because it's amazing to me that at his age, he chooses to just leave a mess.

Dollars gets ya donuts that he does not care if it is a mess. He probably
would be happy to retrieve his socks from an open drawer and never, ever
close it. He probably does not mind if you shut it behind him, though. What
do you want. Do you want it shut, or do you want him to take some
responsibility? If the latter, then the standards have to be negotiated.

However, it's not always funny since I get to either leave it and live with the mess or I get to do it and am sometimes resentful feeling as if I didn't sign up for this. It's enough to clean up after children. Anyhow-the reason that I am bringing this up is that it's not always because a woman is a whiner and a complainer when it comes to feeling as if her spouse is a little bit helpless. Could it possibly be compared to all of the jokes about how women are helpless with tools and heavy housework type of things? I don't want to get into stereotyping, however, in this particular case, let's see....our daughter is nine and on Saturday morning as I was kissing them goodbye to go see a client, he asked, "what can she have for breakfast?"

The one thing to do to remove the helplessness is get out of the way. It is
less important that she has cold pizza a couple of times for breakfast than
that Daddy is in the game.
Enough said? I smiled and said, "the same foods that she has been having for the last 9years- bye guys, have a good day :-)"

There ya go.

"JWB" <bigtom@servo.com> wrote in message
news:AOc3c.14102$c73.3714830@twister.nyc.rr.com... "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message news:3754f0b3.0403082103.7ded9415@posting.google.c om... Someone made a comment a day or two ago about how many women complain about how their husband's don't help but it's often because the wife is so critical that it deters them from ever wanting to help. *snip* I think the stereotypes have some validity. I mean, how does a stereotype become one? I help out quite a bit around the house - but my wife tells me I don't
make the bed really nice, and I have no concept of the dials and settings on
the washing machine (cold/cold, with one "blub" of detergent works fine).

Is there more to it than that?
I also leave the upstairs cleaning (really the main floor) to her, while I keep
my basement office clean. But my wife isn't picky - if nobody else is going to see our bed, the way
I make it is fine. Since I'm home all day, I told her I'd do all the
laundry - she politely declined, saying I could do mine, plush sheets/towels, but she'll handle her own. But I do *all* the guy stuff, and do it quite well. We don't have to hire anyone for home repairs and such, because I can do it all myself (well, I don't roof). My wife can't hammer a nail straight. I'm sure plenty of women can do the guy stuff, but in my life, I've found that in every relationship I have had, we've gravitated towards the more traditional jobs.

"Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c2jmgg$1u2c5l$1@ID-123442.news.uni-berlin.de... Caren wrote: Anyhow-the reason that I am bringing this up is that it's not always because a woman is a whiner and a complainer when it comes to feeling as if her spouse is a little bit helpless. Whining and complaining isn't particularly attractive in a spouse but neither is cultivating helplessness.Could it possibly be compared to all of the jokes about how women are helpless with tools and heavy housework type of things? I don't want to get into stereotyping, however, in this particular case, let's see....our daughter is nine and on Saturday morning as I was kissing them goodbye to go see a client, he asked, "what can she have for breakfast?" Enough said? More than enough!I smiled and said, "the same foods that she has been having for the last 9years- bye guys, have a good day :-)" Good response. All I can say is that it would have driven me stark raving mad to have to deal with that kind of professional helplessness from my husband, Caren. I probably would have been divorced on the grounds of permanent shrewishness because I don't think I could live with a slob and I'm almost certain a
slob would hate living with me.

If it is important to you, you likely weed it out during dating. I mean, if
you are going to get married, you have probably seen your intended's
domicile.
I expect the same of my husband as I would of me. Clumsiness and
ineptitude while learning new skills, competence once they are mastered. I do the
bulk of domestic chores now because I'm at home and our children aren't so tiny that there isn't time for more than looking after them and doing the
cooking and laundry. However, my husband can step in at any time and do everything that I do. Well, he doesn't bake, but I then I don't mow lawns! Neither of us knew
how to run a home until we learnt it on the job, so to speak. I see no reason why one spouse (and it's not always the husband who is accused of being
the slob) should expect the other to be their servant. Tai

We're definitely traditional.
The other day, I needed a screw driver for something.
Saw something lying on my husband's work table, grabbed it, used it.
He came into the kitchen a few minutes later and I swear he turned white!
Turned out it was a chisel...and he'd spent half a day sharpening chisels.
Sheesh!
~Kimberlee


"JWB" <bigtom@servo.com> wrote in message
news:AOc3c.14102$c73.3714830@twister.nyc.rr.com...
: "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
: news:3754f0b3.0403082103.7ded9415@posting.google.c om...
: > Someone made a comment a day or two ago about how many women complain
: > about how their husband's don't help but it's often because the wife
: > is so critical that it deters them from ever wanting to help.
:
: *snip*
:
: I think the stereotypes have some validity. I mean, how does a stereotype
: become one?
:
: I help out quite a bit around the house - but my wife tells me I don't
make
: the bed really nice, and I have no concept of the dials and settings on
the
: washing machine (cold/cold, with one "blub" of detergent works fine). I
also
: leave the upstairs cleaning (really the main floor) to her, while I keep
my
: basement office clean.
:
: But my wife isn't picky - if nobody else is going to see our bed, the way
I
: make it is fine. Since I'm home all day, I told her I'd do all the
laundry -
: she politely declined, saying I could do mine, plush sheets/towels, but
: she'll handle her own.
:
: But I do *all* the guy stuff, and do it quite well. We don't have to hire
: anyone for home repairs and such, because I can do it all myself (well, I
: don't roof). My wife can't hammer a nail straight.
:
: I'm sure plenty of women can do the guy stuff, but in my life, I've found
: that in every relationship I have had, we've gravitated towards the more
: traditional jobs.
:
:

"Jack C Lipton" <cupasoup@softhome.net> wrote in message
news:slrnc4rf4n.h6o.cupasoup@soup2nets.net.dhis.or g... Shashay Doofray wrote: Okay, the point here is this: from time to time, my husband will do something such as make the bed. Now, I have a question for you and I have struggled with this. When he does make the bed, he makes it like a 2 year old makes it. Sometimes, it's hard to tell if he really did make the bed or perhaps he got a phone call and forgot that he was making the bed. You know when your kids are really little and you don't want to discourage them from doing stuff so you just "let it be"? If it were me I would say "Honey, thank you so much for helping me by making the bed. You're the best husband in the world." My sarcasm detector just pinned and I think there's some smoke that just came out. Look, I know I'm unreasonable but I grew up with too much sarcasm; a compliment was just a lead-in to a body punch, meant to soften me up for the follow-up. THIS IS NOT TRUE FOR MOST PEOPLE so I am NOT a representative sample.

I beleive that SD was NOT being sarcastic. But quite literal.
A more neutral way is "Hon, if you made the bed(s), perhaps we can work on it together. We must have learned different ways and I'm not comfortable with how you were taught. Please?" BTW, as an aside, you KNOW there are asymmetries as soon as there's a disparity in hearing the words of "please" and "thank you" from each partner towards the other. Those who "hold the upper hand" seldom feel a need to say "please" or "thank you" to their spouse since the requested attentions are *due* them.


I do not think I understand this last paragraph. What is wrong with saying
please and thank you, just to be nice. The other day, I made dinner for the
100 millionth time. I had done the shopping, planned the week's meals, etc..
I almost always do this. It' jut what I do. (I DO NOT climb up on the roof
to remove the snow from the septic vent stack. I consider it a fair deal. :)
DH said, thanks for cooking. That's it. Made me feel pretty happy.

S

I think that if Skip tries...even though the bed looks like someone's still
sleeping in it, I'm happy.
If it's not going to start a fire or we're not going to die of botulism, who
cares whether it's perfect?
He, on the other hand, will show me the "proper" way to do something if it
doesn't meet his standards. Just goes to show you how two complete
opposites can live together!
~Kimberlee




"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0403082103.7ded9415@posting.google.c om...
: Someone made a comment a day or two ago about how many women complain
: about how their husband's don't help but it's often because the wife
: is so critical that it deters them from ever wanting to help.
:
: I have seen this happen but it's kind of a catch 22 which I understand
: all too well. I am in a marriage where I am responsible for
: everything in the house-except for perhaps a few things that I simply
: can't reach (like our outside light bulbs, even with a small ladder,
: it's too high and he is much taller than I). As I have said before,
: he is the main breadwinner and he does most of the gardening- although
: that is slowing down too as I take on more.
:
: Okay, the point here is this: from time to time, my husband will do
: something such as make the bed. Now, I have a question for you and I
: have struggled with this. When he does make the bed, he makes it like
: a 2 year old makes it. Sometimes, it's hard to tell if he really did
: make the bed or perhaps he got a phone call and forgot that he was
: making the bed. You know when your kids are really little and you
: don't want to discourage them from doing stuff so you just "let it
: be"? You know, an outfit that they put on with stripes and checks, or
: how they cleaned up their face or made their bed. The worst thing to
: do is say, oh my , let's do that better now. I have struggled with
: myhusband over this issue. Okay,a the guy is 44. He also has an ego.
: When he does something like make the bed like a bear is still lying
: in it, do I actually say "thank you"??? Do I make the bed and just
: shut up? Do I ask him if he is done? I have not figured out the best
: way to handle a situation where I know that he did a half assed job
: out of laziness.
:
: I don't want to criticize and I want the help so it is a dilemma.
: It's actually not happening right now since he is too busy to do
: helping of any sort. Remember, I wake up in the morning and follow
: the wake. I shut his underwear drawer, his sock drawer, close his
: closet and then I put his toothbrush back in the cup. That is before
: I walk downstairs and even have coffee. I can laugh at it sometimes
: because it's amazing to me that at his age, he chooses to just leave a
: mess. However, it's not always funny since I get to either leave it
: and live with the mess or I get to do it and am sometimes resentful
: feeling as if I didn't sign up for this. It's enough to clean up
: after children.
:
: Anyhow-the reason that I am bringing this up is that it's not always
: because a woman is a whiner and a complainer when it comes to feeling
: as if her spouse is a little bit helpless. Could it possibly be
: compared to all of the jokes about how women are helpless with tools
: and heavy housework type of things? I don't want to get into
: stereotyping, however, in this particular case, let's see....our
: daughter is nine and on Saturday morning as I was kissing them goodbye
: to go see a client, he asked, "what can she have for breakfast?"
: Enough said? I smiled and said, "the same foods that she has been
: having for the last 9years- bye guys, have a good day :-)"

"Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote in message
news:ypCdnaaDoaOSdtDdRVn-sw@telcove.net... "JWB" <bigtom@servo.com> wrote in messageI have no concept of the dials and settings on the washing machine (cold/cold, with one "blub" of detergent works fine). Is there more to it than that?

apparently. Not that I really care :)

On 8 Mar 2004 21:03:30 -0800, Caren
<caren50@msn.com> wrote:
When he does something like make the bed like a bear is still lying in it, do I actually say "thank you"??? Do I make the bed and just shut up? Do I ask him if he is done? I have not figured out the best way to handle a situation where I know that he did a half assed job out of laziness.

You grab him, throw him onto the bed, have your way with him (making sure
to pull out the corners and mess it up totally) then when you're done,
say: "Oh, my!!! I'm sorry!!! we seem to mae a mess out of the bed. Could
you be a sweetie and help me make it?" <batting eyelashes>. (Then you
show him the proper way to do it while he helps. :))

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

caren50@msn.com (Caren) wrote in message news:<3754f0b3.0403082103.7ded9415@posting.google.com>... Someone made a comment a day or two ago about how many women complain about how their husband's don't help but it's often because the wife is so critical that it deters them from ever wanting to help.

Hi Caren,

I was the one who made the comment, and specifically I was talking
about husbands helping out with the childcare. This is, IMHO,
different than housework in that (no, not all, but many) new parents
start from ground zero knowing absolutely nothing about childcare.
Yes, there are exceptions, i.e., some new mothers and fathers got some
experience babysitting or caring for younger siblings. But for many,
both husband and wife are starting from very little experience when
baby comes home from the hospital. They have to learn the hard way.

And what happens? Usually mom ends up learning faster than dad. This
is natural if mom is breastfeeding, is the one who gets to take leave,
and they've agreed she's going to stay at home. In that situation,
dad's going to have less time to conquer his learning curve, but if
mom doesn't somehow thwart things, he *will* eventually learn. He may
do things differently, but he will learn. If dad ends up learning
helplessness, you do have to wonder how he learned that over time. Of
course there are men who have no interest in learning, but most of the
men I know would love to learn but haven't been given enough
opportunity, or where subtely deflated for their initial efforts.

Housework is a different story entirely. Before two adults get
married, there's a long learning curve in which they're supposed to
learn these skills either from their parents or later when they're on
their own.
I don't want to criticize and I want the help so it is a dilemma. It's actually not happening right now since he is too busy to do helping of any sort.

What sort of things keep him busy? For example if a husband is working
hard to make a paycheck so his wife can stay at home, then I wouldn't
complain if he can't make a bed. I don't complain when DF makes the
bed like a 2-year-old (yep, him too!) because he takes out the trash
every day, something I hate to do. Maybe it would help you feel better
about the situation if you made a list of all the things your husband
does handle so you don't have to?
Anyhow-the reason that I am bringing this up is that it's not always because a woman is a whiner and a complainer when it comes to feeling as if her spouse is a little bit helpless.

On the subject of childcare, it wasn't about the woman whining and
complaining. It was about how we have a tendency, without thinking, to
exclude our husbands and reduce their number of opportunities to learn
on their own how to care for their children. And how we can sometimes
unwittingly deflate their efforts when they try. Most of us didn't
become competent parents overnight; it's a process.
Could it possibly be compared to all of the jokes about how women are helpless with tools and heavy housework type of things?

My ex used to discourage me when I wanted to learn how to mow the
lawn. He and his neighbor buddy would stand with their beers and laugh
at me. I'd get long lectures about the "right" way to mow. He also
wouldn't let me touch the power tools, or shovel the snow cuz I didn't
do it "his" way. He also kept tight control over the finances,
routinely emptying my purse without asking so he could count my cash
and round up receipts. And the biggest fight we ever got into during
the honeymoon period was when I didn't fold his socks the way his
mother always did.

Actually, I was constantly being told that I didn't do anything right,
or as well as his mother did things. I'd get so paranoid before she
came to visit, because I just knew she'd find something to criticize
if I didn't clean thoroughly enough beforehand.

When our first baby came along, I think I was damned and determined to
have this one area be *mine* and mine alone. Early on we had long and
nasty fights (about breastfeeding in particular). He wanted me to take
his mother's advice (she never breastfed and was against it). Looking
back, I can see how it was very important for me to defend this one
role in our marriage as my sole territory.

jen

Caren <caren50@msn.com> wrote:
I don't want to criticize and I want the help so it is a dilemma.

Good questions. Regarding the bed in particular, if DH makes it I say
thanks and don't redo it (and yes it looks like someone is still
sleeping in there). But that's because I don't much care.

DH does the laundry, and I did ask him to drape my cloths on the bed
rather than leave them crumpled in the basket - because otherwise they
are too wrinkly to wear (he doesn't fold or hang up - just gets them
clean and dry).

So I guess I'd say correct only when you really have a reason - it's
going to make more work for you or cause damage. Or one other thing -
if DH invites people over, the deal is he has to help me get the public
parts of the house looking nice. That one we negotiated.

On Tue, 9 Mar 2004 11:04:39 -0500, Stephanie Stowe
<stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote:
"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message news:3754f0b3.0403082103.7ded9415@posting.google.c om...

<Snip>
Anyhow-the reason that I am bringing this up is that it's not always because a woman is a whiner and a complainer when it comes to feeling as if her spouse is a little bit helpless. Could it possibly be compared to all of the jokes about how women are helpless with tools and heavy housework type of things? I don't want to get into stereotyping, however, in this particular case, let's see....our daughter is nine and on Saturday morning as I was kissing them goodbye to go see a client, he asked, "what can she have for breakfast?" The one thing to do to remove the helplessness is get out of the way. It is less important that she has cold pizza a couple of times for breakfast than that Daddy is in the game.

"Dad is *great*! He gives us chocolate *cake*" -- Bill Cosby

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

"Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message
news:slrnc4ru7l.fni.tony@home.cigardiary.com... On 8 Mar 2004 21:03:30 -0800, Caren <caren50@msn.com> wrote: When he does something like make the bed like a bear is still lying in it, do I actually say "thank you"??? Do I make the bed and just shut up? Do I ask him if he is done? I have not figured out the best way to handle a situation where I know that he did a half assed job out of laziness. You grab him, throw him onto the bed, have your way with him (making sure to pull out the corners and mess it up totally) then when you're done, say: "Oh, my!!! I'm sorry!!! we seem to mae a mess out of the bed. Could you be a sweetie and help me make it?" <batting eyelashes>. (Then you show him the proper way to do it while he helps. :))


Damn. I am going to use that one. I like it.
-Tony -- "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's
time to fertilize your lawn!" Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

On 9 Mar 2004 10:10:01 -0800, shinypenny
<shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote: caren50@msn.com (Caren) wrote in message news:<3754f0b3.0403082103.7ded9415@posting.google.com>... Someone made a comment a day or two ago about how many women complain about how their husband's don't help but it's often because the wife is so critical that it deters them from ever wanting to help. Hi Caren, I was the one who made the comment, and specifically I was talking about husbands helping out with the childcare. This is, IMHO, different than housework in that (no, not all, but many) new parents start from ground zero knowing absolutely nothing about childcare. Yes, there are exceptions, i.e., some new mothers and fathers got some experience babysitting or caring for younger siblings. But for many, both husband and wife are starting from very little experience when baby comes home from the hospital. They have to learn the hard way. And what happens? Usually mom ends up learning faster than dad. This is natural if mom is breastfeeding, is the one who gets to take leave, and they've agreed she's going to stay at home. In that situation, dad's going to have less time to conquer his learning curve, but if mom doesn't somehow thwart things, he *will* eventually learn. He may do things differently, but he will learn. If dad ends up learning helplessness, you do have to wonder how he learned that over time. Of course there are men who have no interest in learning, but most of the men I know would love to learn but haven't been given enough opportunity, or where subtely deflated for their initial efforts. Housework is a different story entirely. Before two adults get married, there's a long learning curve in which they're supposed to learn these skills either from their parents or later when they're on their own.

I learned that mom does the housework, and dad does the yard, pool and
repair work.

<Snip>
Could it possibly be compared to all of the jokes about how women are helpless with tools and heavy housework type of things? My ex used to discourage me when I wanted to learn how to mow the lawn. He and his neighbor buddy would stand with their beers and laugh at me. I'd get long lectures about the "right" way to mow. He also wouldn't let me touch the power tools, or shovel the snow cuz I didn't do it "his" way. He also kept tight control over the finances, routinely emptying my purse without asking so he could count my cash and round up receipts. And the biggest fight we ever got into during the honeymoon period was when I didn't fold his socks the way his mother always did.

Luckily, my wife has no interest in using the power tools. I prefer to
use them because my wife is sometimes uncoordinated and she could REALLY
hurt herself with some of those things. I don't want to chance that
happening.
Actually, I was constantly being told that I didn't do anything right, or as well as his mother did things. I'd get so paranoid before she came to visit, because I just knew she'd find something to criticize if I didn't clean thoroughly enough beforehand.

My wife does lots of things right. And the day before my wife and I got
married I sat my mom down at the kitchen table alone and told her: "I'm
getting married tomorrow, mom. I love you, but if you fight with my wife,
you will lose". This set the tone. I've had to reiterate it a few times,
but it's been pretty good.

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

"Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message
news:slrnc4sacj.g12.tony@home.cigardiary.com... On 9 Mar 2004 10:10:01 -0800, shinypenny <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote: caren50@msn.com (Caren) wrote in message
news:<3754f0b3.0403082103.7ded9415@posting.google.com>... Someone made a comment a day or two ago about how many women complain about how their husband's don't help but it's often because the wife is so critical that it deters them from ever wanting to help. Hi Caren, I was the one who made the comment, and specifically I was talking about husbands helping out with the childcare. This is, IMHO, different than housework in that (no, not all, but many) new parents start from ground zero knowing absolutely nothing about childcare. Yes, there are exceptions, i.e., some new mothers and fathers got some experience babysitting or caring for younger siblings. But for many, both husband and wife are starting from very little experience when baby comes home from the hospital. They have to learn the hard way. And what happens? Usually mom ends up learning faster than dad. This is natural if mom is breastfeeding, is the one who gets to take leave, and they've agreed she's going to stay at home. In that situation, dad's going to have less time to conquer his learning curve, but if mom doesn't somehow thwart things, he *will* eventually learn. He may do things differently, but he will learn. If dad ends up learning helplessness, you do have to wonder how he learned that over time. Of course there are men who have no interest in learning, but most of the men I know would love to learn but haven't been given enough opportunity, or where subtely deflated for their initial efforts. Housework is a different story entirely. Before two adults get married, there's a long learning curve in which they're supposed to learn these skills either from their parents or later when they're on their own. I learned that mom does the housework, and dad does the yard, pool and repair work. <Snip> Could it possibly be compared to all of the jokes about how women are helpless with tools and heavy housework type of things? My ex used to discourage me when I wanted to learn how to mow the lawn. He and his neighbor buddy would stand with their beers and laugh at me. I'd get long lectures about the "right" way to mow. He also wouldn't let me touch the power tools, or shovel the snow cuz I didn't do it "his" way. He also kept tight control over the finances, routinely emptying my purse without asking so he could count my cash and round up receipts. And the biggest fight we ever got into during the honeymoon period was when I didn't fold his socks the way his mother always did. Luckily, my wife has no interest in using the power tools. I prefer to use them because my wife is sometimes uncoordinated and she could REALLY hurt herself with some of those things. I don't want to chance that happening.

I just had a full on belly laugh at this since I once actually sanded the
cord off our rotary sander. You reminded me of this. DH will never let me
forget it.
Actually, I was constantly being told that I didn't do anything right, or as well as his mother did things. I'd get so paranoid before she came to visit, because I just knew she'd find something to criticize if I didn't clean thoroughly enough beforehand. My wife does lots of things right. And the day before my wife and I got married I sat my mom down at the kitchen table alone and told her: "I'm getting married tomorrow, mom. I love you, but if you fight with my wife, you will lose". This set the tone. I've had to reiterate it a few times, but it's been pretty good.

Can you speak to one of my brothers-in-law for me?
-Tony -- "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's
time to fertilize your lawn!" Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

On Tue, 9 Mar 2004 15:57:26 -0500, Stephanie Stowe
<stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote: "Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:slrnc4sacj.g12.tony@home.cigardiary.com... On 9 Mar 2004 10:10:01 -0800, shinypenny <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote: caren50@msn.com (Caren) wrote in message news:<3754f0b3.0403082103.7ded9415@posting.google.com>...> Someone made a comment a day or two ago about how many women complain> about how their husband's don't help but it's often because the wife> is so critical that it deters them from ever wanting to help. Hi Caren, I was the one who made the comment, and specifically I was talking about husbands helping out with the childcare. This is, IMHO, different than housework in that (no, not all, but many) new parents start from ground zero knowing absolutely nothing about childcare. Yes, there are exceptions, i.e., some new mothers and fathers got some experience babysitting or caring for younger siblings. But for many, both husband and wife are starting from very little experience when baby comes home from the hospital. They have to learn the hard way. And what happens? Usually mom ends up learning faster than dad. This is natural if mom is breastfeeding, is the one who gets to take leave, and they've agreed she's going to stay at home. In that situation, dad's going to have less time to conquer his learning curve, but if mom doesn't somehow thwart things, he *will* eventually learn. He may do things differently, but he will learn. If dad ends up learning helplessness, you do have to wonder how he learned that over time. Of course there are men who have no interest in learning, but most of the men I know would love to learn but haven't been given enough opportunity, or where subtely deflated for their initial efforts. Housework is a different story entirely. Before two adults get married, there's a long learning curve in which they're supposed to learn these skills either from their parents or later when they're on their own. I learned that mom does the housework, and dad does the yard, pool and repair work. <Snip>> Could it possibly be> compared to all of the jokes about how women are helpless with tools> and heavy housework type of things? My ex used to discourage me when I wanted to learn how to mow the lawn. He and his neighbor buddy would stand with their beers and laugh at me. I'd get long lectures about the "right" way to mow. He also wouldn't let me touch the power tools, or shovel the snow cuz I didn't do it "his" way. He also kept tight control over the finances, routinely emptying my purse without asking so he could count my cash and round up receipts. And the biggest fight we ever got into during the honeymoon period was when I didn't fold his socks the way his mother always did. Luckily, my wife has no interest in using the power tools. I prefer to use them because my wife is sometimes uncoordinated and she could REALLY hurt herself with some of those things. I don't want to chance that happening. I just had a full on belly laugh at this since I once actually sanded the cord off our rotary sander. You reminded me of this. DH will never let me forget it.

My wife has done a couple things like that. I have replaced a couple
power cords on applliances. I always do it lovingly with a "that's ok,
honey. **** happens" :)
Actually, I was constantly being told that I didn't do anything right, or as well as his mother did things. I'd get so paranoid before she came to visit, because I just knew she'd find something to criticize if I didn't clean thoroughly enough beforehand. My wife does lots of things right. And the day before my wife and I got married I sat my mom down at the kitchen table alone and told her: "I'm getting married tomorrow, mom. I love you, but if you fight with my wife, you will lose". This set the tone. I've had to reiterate it a few times, but it's been pretty good. Can you speak to one of my brothers-in-law for me?

Nope. If a guy is a momma's-boy-weenie, what you see is generally what
you get.

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

Jack C Lipton <cupasoup@softhome.net> wrote: A more neutral way is "Hon, if you made the bed(s), perhaps we can work on it together. We must have learned different ways and I'm not comfortable with how you were taught. Please?"

"If you don't like how I do it, then you do it, by all means."

"Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message
news:slrnc4scug.2n1.tony@home.cigardiary.com... On Tue, 9 Mar 2004 15:57:26 -0500, Stephanie Stowe <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote: "Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:slrnc4sacj.g12.tony@home.cigardiary.com... On 9 Mar 2004 10:10:01 -0800, shinypenny <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote: > caren50@msn.com (Caren) wrote in message news:<3754f0b3.0403082103.7ded9415@posting.google.com>... >> Someone made a comment a day or two ago about how many women
complain >> about how their husband's don't help but it's often because the wife >> is so critical that it deters them from ever wanting to help. > > Hi Caren, > > I was the one who made the comment, and specifically I was talking > about husbands helping out with the childcare. This is, IMHO, > different than housework in that (no, not all, but many) new parents > start from ground zero knowing absolutely nothing about childcare. > Yes, there are exceptions, i.e., some new mothers and fathers got
some > experience babysitting or caring for younger siblings. But for many, > both husband and wife are starting from very little experience when > baby comes home from the hospital. They have to learn the hard way. > > And what happens? Usually mom ends up learning faster than dad. This > is natural if mom is breastfeeding, is the one who gets to take
leave, > and they've agreed she's going to stay at home. In that situation, > dad's going to have less time to conquer his learning curve, but if > mom doesn't somehow thwart things, he *will* eventually learn. He may > do things differently, but he will learn. If dad ends up learning > helplessness, you do have to wonder how he learned that over time. Of > course there are men who have no interest in learning, but most of
the > men I know would love to learn but haven't been given enough > opportunity, or where subtely deflated for their initial efforts. > > Housework is a different story entirely. Before two adults get > married, there's a long learning curve in which they're supposed to > learn these skills either from their parents or later when they're on > their own. I learned that mom does the housework, and dad does the yard, pool and repair work. <Snip> >> Could it possibly be >> compared to all of the jokes about how women are helpless with tools >> and heavy housework type of things? > > My ex used to discourage me when I wanted to learn how to mow the > lawn. He and his neighbor buddy would stand with their beers and
laugh > at me. I'd get long lectures about the "right" way to mow. He also > wouldn't let me touch the power tools, or shovel the snow cuz I
didn't > do it "his" way. He also kept tight control over the finances, > routinely emptying my purse without asking so he could count my cash > and round up receipts. And the biggest fight we ever got into during > the honeymoon period was when I didn't fold his socks the way his > mother always did. Luckily, my wife has no interest in using the power tools. I prefer to use them because my wife is sometimes uncoordinated and she could
REALLY hurt herself with some of those things. I don't want to chance that happening. I just had a full on belly laugh at this since I once actually sanded
the cord off our rotary sander. You reminded me of this. DH will never let
me forget it. My wife has done a couple things like that. I have replaced a couple power cords on applliances. I always do it lovingly with a "that's ok, honey. **** happens" :)

The business of DH never letting me forget it is all in good fun. The first
time he ever made me breakfast in bed, he did not eat any breakfast because
he had ruined the eggs trying to fry them. So he gave me scrambled and did
not eat anything. (I got him to fess up and we shared.) In my family, you
say someone cannot cook by saying they "can't fry and egg." We laugh about
that too. Just fun.

Incidentally, DH is now an awsome cook.
> Actually, I was constantly being told that I didn't do anything
right, > or as well as his mother did things. I'd get so paranoid before she > came to visit, because I just knew she'd find something to criticize > if I didn't clean thoroughly enough beforehand. My wife does lots of things right. And the day before my wife and I
got married I sat my mom down at the kitchen table alone and told her: "I'm getting married tomorrow, mom. I love you, but if you fight with my
wife, you will lose". This set the tone. I've had to reiterate it a few
times, but it's been pretty good. Can you speak to one of my brothers-in-law for me? Nope. If a guy is a momma's-boy-weenie, what you see is generally what you get.

Phooey. I was afraid of that.
-Tony -- "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's
time to fertilize your lawn!" Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

Stephanie Stowe wrote: Jack C Lipton wrote: Shashay Doofray wrote:> Okay, the point here is this: from time to time,> my husband will do something such as make the bed.> Now, I have a question for you and I have struggled> with this. When he does make the bed, he makes it> like a 2 year old makes it. Sometimes, it's hard> to tell if he really did make the bed or perhaps he> got a phone call and forgot that he was making the> bed. You know when your kids are really little and> you don't want to discourage them from doing stuff> so you just "let it be"? If it were me I would say "Honey, thank you so much for helping me by making the bed. You're the best husband in the world." My sarcasm detector just pinned and I think there's some smoke that just came out. Look, I know I'm unreasonable but I grew up with too much sarcasm; a compliment was just a lead-in to a body punch, meant to soften me up for the follow-up. THIS IS NOT TRUE FOR MOST PEOPLE so I am NOT a representative sample. I believe that SD was NOT being sarcastic. But quite literal.

Oh, I'd have to agree, but someone with a tendency to
be sensitive about sarcasm would get set off. I *know*
in this setting it's not _supposed_ to be sarcastic.

It's a matter of how it's received.
BTW, as an aside, you KNOW there are asymmetries as soon as there's a disparity in hearing the words of "please" and "thank you" from each partner towards the other. Those who "hold the upper hand" seldom feel a need to say "please" or "thank you" to their spouse since the requested attentions are *due* them. I do not think I understand this last paragraph. What is wrong with saying please and thank you, just to be nice. The other day, I made dinner for the 100 millionth time. I had done the shopping, planned the week's meals, etc.. I almost always do this. It' jut what I do. (I DO NOT climb up on the roof to remove the snow from the septic vent stack. I consider it a fair deal. :) DH said, thanks for cooking. That's it. Made me feel pretty happy.

My point is that when a marital relationship gets out
of balance (becomes asymmetric w/r/t authority, etc)
one symptom is that one of the partners doesn't feel
any need to cushion things for the other.

Granted, if it reaches that point, the balance is WAY
out.

So you just confirmed what I was trying to say. When
a marriage is "in balance" then the "pleases" and
"thank yous" flow. When that flow stops... there are
problems.

It may not *mean* a lot each time, but the little bit
of lubricant never hurts... until one is too proud
to acknowledge their dependance.

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup@softhome.net | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/

You grab him, throw him onto the bed, have your way with him (making sure to pull out the corners and mess it up totally) then when you're done, say: "Oh, my!!! I'm sorry!!! we seem to mae a mess out of the bed. Could you be a sweetie and help me make it?" <batting eyelashes>. (Then you show him the proper way to do it while he helps. :)) -Tony
She'd have to wait for him to wake up again. You know what I mean like Roll
over etc.....

ROG

Tony Miller wrote: Caren wrote: When he does something like make the bed like a bear is still lying in it, do I actually say "thank you"??? Do I make the bed and just shut up? Do I ask him if he is done? I have not figured out the best way to handle a situation where I know that he did a half assed job out of laziness. You grab him, throw him onto the bed, have your way with him (making sure to pull out the corners and mess it up totally) then when you're done, say: "Oh, my!!! I'm sorry!!! we seem to mae a mess out of the bed. Could you be a sweetie and help me make it?" <batting eyelashes>. (Then you show him the proper way to do it while he helps. :))

Note to those not blessed with only a pair of X
chromosomes: this does NOT work.

Only when someone with a pair of X chromosomes
makes this move on someone with an X and Y set
will this work. XYs can be surprised this way;
XXs will be more pissed than anything else.

Otherwise... a nice idea.

Sadly, I don't think there's a really equivalent
mechanism when an XY is trying to impress an XX.

Darn.

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup@softhome.net | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/

Marcus Ulpius Traianus wrote: Jack C Lipton wrote: A more neutral way is "Hon, if you made the bed(s), perhaps we can work on it together. We must have learned different ways and I'm not comfortable with how you were taught. Please?" "If you don't like how I do it, then you do it, by all means."

That, Marcus, is what I term "calculated incompetence".

Part of the relationship is trying to please each other.

(Funny how some women usually ignore much of the advice
in how to please their husbands... as if it's "below"
them. Perhaps they should hire that activity out?)

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup@softhome.net | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/

Caren I believe all things should be 50 / 50 and discussed and negotiated
like two adults.
If you are not happy about it you HAVE to talk about it.
BUT you have no right to impose your standards and expectations with out
agreeing them standards with HIM.
I believe you are secretly happy to act like his mother so that he can be
happy to be mothered.
I have seen this happen but it's kind of a catch 22 which I understand all too well. I am in a marriage where I am responsible for everything in the house-except for perhaps a few things that I simply can't reach (like our outside light bulbs, even with a small ladder, it's too high and he is much taller than I). As I have said before, he is the main breadwinner and he does most of the gardening- although that is slowing down too as I take on more.

That sounds good.
Okay, the point here is this: from time to time, my husband will do something such as make the bed. Now, I have a question for you and I have struggled with this. When he does make the bed, he makes it like a 2 year old makes it. Sometimes, it's hard to tell if he really did make the bed or perhaps he got a phone call and forgot that he was making the bed. You know when your kids are really little and you don't want to discourage them from doing stuff so you just "let it be"? You know, an outfit that they put on with stripes and checks, or how they cleaned up their face or made their bed. The worst thing to do is say, oh my , let's do that better now. I have struggled with myhusband over this issue. Okay,a the guy is 44. He also has an ego. When he does something like make the bed like a bear is still lying in it, do I actually say "thank you"??? Do I make the bed and just shut up? Do I ask him if he is done? I have not figured out the best way to handle a situation where I know that he did a half assed job out of laziness.
Why should he make the bed if he is happy to have a messy bed or just doesnt
care either way then
why should you have this expectation of him why dont you just do it. I don't want to criticize and I want the help so it is a dilemma. It's actually not happening right now since he is too busy to do helping of any sort. Remember, I wake up in the morning and follow the wake. I shut his underwear drawer, his sock drawer, close his closet and then I put his toothbrush back in the cup.
Youre a gr8 mother really. A martyr for the cause. Come on !!

That is before I walk downstairs and even have coffee. I can laugh at it sometimes because it's amazing to me that at his age, he chooses to just leave a mess. However, it's not always funny since I get to either leave it and live with the mess or I get to do it and am sometimes resentful feeling as if I didn't sign up for this. It's enough to clean up after children.
Stop treating him like a child so!!
Anyhow-the reason that I am bringing this up is that it's not always because a woman is a whiner and a complainer when it comes to feeling as if her spouse is a little bit helpless. Could it possibly be compared to all of the jokes about how women are helpless with tools and heavy housework type of things? I don't want to get into stereotyping, however, in this particular case, let's see....our daughter is nine and on Saturday morning as I was kissing them goodbye to go see a client, he asked, "what can she have for breakfast?" Enough said? I smiled and said, "the same foods that she has been having for the last 9years- bye guys, have a good day :-)"

So you used your child as a tool to make your husband look like a fool.
You both have serious issues to sort out. Start by communicating like grown
ups.
Get a book or do counselling. AND get a your life sorted.

ROG
sorry don't mean to be mean here but..

> When he does something like make the bed like a bear is still lyingin it, do I actually say "thank you"??? Do I make the bed and justshut up? Do I ask him if he is done? I have not figured out the bestway to handle a situation where I know that he did a half assed jobout of laziness.I don't want to criticize and I want the help so it is a dilemma.

Do what we do -- don't make the bed! :-)

Sheila

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in I don't want to criticize and I want the help so it is a dilemma.

The way I see it you need to decide what is most important

1. Having your husband help or
2. Having the work done properly

Once you decide that the rest is easy.

Amy

"Jack C Lipton" <cupasoup@softhome.net> wrote in message
news:slrnc4rf4n.h6o.cupasoup@soup2nets.net.dhis.or g... Shashay Doofray wrote: Okay, the point here is this: from time to time, my husband will do something such as make the bed. Now, I have a question for you and I have struggled with this. When he does make the bed, he makes it like a 2 year old makes it. Sometimes, it's hard to tell if he really did make the bed or perhaps he got a phone call and forgot that he was making the bed. You know when your kids are really little and you don't want to discourage them from doing stuff so you just "let it be"? If it were me I would say "Honey, thank you so much for helping me by making the bed. You're the best husband in the world." My sarcasm detector just pinned and I think there's some smoke that just came out.

Do you always think people are being sarcastic when they say something nice?
Or do you just hang around with people who can't give someone a sincere
compliment with out rolling their eyes and smirk on their faces.

No, I would be 100 percent sincere because I would appreciate my husband's
effort. It has nothing to do with the quality of the work done. That is
not even remotely important here. What is important is that he put forth
the effort and I recognized it in a SINCERE way. No sarcasm, no smirking,
no rolling of the eyes, and no comment on how the bed looks.

Doesn't anybody ever say anything nice to you? How sad.

SD

<-@-.com> wrote in message
news:e99r409fnfoebt3hc5miod4q9dtscj28ua@4ax.com... On 8 Mar 2004 21:03:30 -0800, caren50@msn.com (Caren) wrote:I have seen this happen but it's kind of a catch 22 which I understandall too well. I am in a marriage where I am responsible foreverything in the house-except for perhaps a few things that I simplycan't reach (like our outside light bulbs, even with a small ladder, You just need a bigger ladder and you'll be on your way to freedom and self sufficiency..... After all, that's what womens lib is all about (plus burning your bra).

LOL good one.

SD

Shashay Doofray wrote: Jack C Lipton wrote: Shashay Doofray wrote:> Okay, the point here is this: from time to time,> my husband will do something such as make the bed.> Now, I have a question for you and I have struggled> with this. When he does make the bed, he makes it> like a 2 year old makes it. Sometimes, it's hard> to tell if he really did make the bed or perhaps he> got a phone call and forgot that he was making the> bed. You know when your kids are really little and> you don't want to discourage them from doing stuff> so you just "let it be"? If it were me I would say "Honey, thank you so much for helping me by making the bed. You're the best husband in the world." My sarcasm detector just pinned and I think there's some smoke that just came out. Do you always think people are being sarcastic when they say something nice? Or do you just hang around with people who can't give someone a sincere compliment with out rolling their eyes and smirk on their faces.

I pointed out (OK, in the following paragraph) that my
own reaction is ATYPICAL. I do not know how many people
have over-sensitive sarcasm detectors, either.

Granted, there are times when I have a twitch in my
right index finger, but that usually only happens when
my bull**** detector gets pinned. :-) :-)

No, I grew up with sarcasm as a child and so my first
reaction on hearing a compliment is to tighten up and
scan for threats, so *I* am over-sensitive.

Like I said, I'm NOT in the mainstream here.

And, yes, this reaction works against a lot of things;
AFAICT the non-verbal communication channels aren't
damaged in the same way.
Doesn't anybody ever say anything nice to you?

Yes, and my paranoia usually goes to eleven. :-)

While I *am* getting better about it, this will take
some time given how deep (and how visceral) my
reactions seem to be burned in.

It is difficult to function well with another person
when your ability to feel approved of, etc, has been
compromised; it takes conscious effort to override
the initial response of fight-or-flight.

I will admit that getting positive feedback via e-mail
and IM chats has *helped* me in dealing with the
*spoken* word; while some discomfort remains, I can
see progress.

Anybody else around here sensitive to sarcasm?

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup@softhome.net | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/

Jack C Lipton wrote: Anybody else around here sensitive to sarcasm?

Nope. I know sarcasm is supposed to be the "lowest form of wit" but
sometimes I find sarcasm excrutiatingly witty and other times it's like a
blunt knife.

Rather like most forms of humour, really.

Tai

Tai wrote: Jack C Lipton wrote: Anybody else around here sensitive to sarcasm? Nope. I know sarcasm is supposed to be the "lowest form of wit" but sometimes I find sarcasm excrutiatingly witty and other times it's like a blunt knife.

I thought *puns* were supposed to be the lowest form
of wit. IMHO sarcasm isn't about being funny but
about stinging a person while *sounding* funny.

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup@softhome.net | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/

Jack C Lipton wrote: Tai wrote: Jack C Lipton wrote: Anybody else around here sensitive to sarcasm? Nope. I know sarcasm is supposed to be the "lowest form of wit" but sometimes I find sarcasm excrutiatingly witty and other times it's like a blunt knife. I thought *puns* were supposed to be the lowest form of wit.

Really? I hadn't heard that version. Pope said something about sarcasm being
the language of the devil and that he was giving it up. (Although, as he was
a satirist I'm not sure how he managed it!)
IMHO sarcasm isn't about being funny but about stinging a person while *sounding* funny.

True, but sarcasm isn't the only form of humour which does this. And, of
course, it doesn't make it any the less funny when done well.

You might like this:

"Blows are sarcasms turned stupid."
- George Eliot

Tai

"Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> writes:
Jack C Lipton wrote: Tai wrote: Jack C Lipton wrote:> Anybody else around here sensitive to sarcasm? Nope. I know sarcasm is supposed to be the "lowest form of wit" but sometimes I find sarcasm excrutiatingly witty and other times it's like a blunt knife. I thought *puns* were supposed to be the lowest form of wit. Really? I hadn't heard that version. Pope said something about sarcasm being the language of the devil and that he was giving it up. (Although, as he was a satirist I'm not sure how he managed it!)

He continued to allow himself irony. I rarely find sarcasm funny.
Irony often is though.

Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> writes: Jack C Lipton wrote: Tai wrote:> Jack C Lipton wrote:>> Anybody else around here sensitive to sarcasm?>> Nope. I know sarcasm is supposed to be the "lowest> form of wit" but sometimes I find sarcasm> excrutiatingly witty and other times it's like a> blunt knife. I thought *puns* were supposed to be the lowest form of wit. Really? I hadn't heard that version. Pope said something about sarcasm being the language of the devil and that he was giving it up. (Although, as he was a satirist I'm not sure how he managed it!) He continued to allow himself irony. I rarely find sarcasm funny. Irony often is though.

Irony is certainly much harder to accomplish than sarcasm, though.

I have read that if your spouse is being sarcastic with you, it's
because he's been asking you in other ways and you have not been
listening. That seems to be true in my marriage.

mbjq@earthlink.net (Emma Anne) writes:
Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote: "Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> writes: Jack C Lipton wrote: > Tai wrote: >> Jack C Lipton wrote: >>> Anybody else around here sensitive to sarcasm? >> >> Nope. I know sarcasm is supposed to be the "lowest >> form of wit" but sometimes I find sarcasm >> excrutiatingly witty and other times it's like a >> blunt knife. > > I thought *puns* were supposed to be the lowest form > of wit. Really? I hadn't heard that version. Pope said something about sarcasm being the language of the devil and that he was giving it up. (Although, as he was a satirist I'm not sure how he managed it!) He continued to allow himself irony. I rarely find sarcasm funny. Irony often is though. Irony is certainly much harder to accomplish than sarcasm, though.

Especially on usenet. But the rewards are greater.
I have read that if your spouse is being sarcastic with you, it's because he's been asking you in other ways and you have not been listening. That seems to be true in my marriage.

Maybe. We don't use sarcasm in our relationship. In my
family-of-origin, sarcasm was common and neither hostile, nor loaded.
In my wife's family, her mother used sarcasm to snipe. So I had to
retrain myself from the beginning of our relationship to avoid sarcasm.

Shashay Doofray wrote:
No, I would be 100 percent sincere because I would appreciate my husband's effort. It has nothing to do with the quality of the work done. That is not even remotely important here. What is important is that he put forth the effort and I recognized it in a SINCERE way. No sarcasm, no smirking, no rolling of the eyes, and no comment on how the bed looks.

SD, I usually cannot relate to what you write about relationships
(both my husband and I are faaaaar removed from the "man leads,
woman follows" philosophy of life). But in this case, I fully agree
with you. I think couples don't make nearly enough mention of
the positive things in their relationship and far too much mention of
negative. One of the things that my husband and I occasionally talk
about is "what is RIGHT with our marriage"! It's amazing how much
we can take for granted if we don't consciously direct our focus to
the positives.

Now, when it comes to making beds, my husband doesn't even try,
and I don't even ask him to. He doesn't care if the bed was never
made and I can't stand sleeping in an already slept in bed -- it has to
be crisp and fluffed up all over! Some times if I am tired I just
lie in bed for 1/2 hour in the evening, and though I'll be back in it
in a couple of hours I fully make it when I get up :-)

Ellie wrote: Now, when it comes to making beds, my husband doesn't even try, and I don't even ask him to.

I am the "bed maker" since my wife never could
get over the negative memories of making a bed
she got as a child. I think I surprised her
more than once.

But... I'm unenthusiastic and she's not all
bothered by that requirement.

BTW, just to throw a curve into this thread, it
has struck me that, even when "obey" isn't part
of the vows, there's a LOT of expectations with
it regardless of the partner's gender. I'm not
exactly all that obedient and she gets all bent
out of shape-- but I never vowed to be obedient
(and she made sure it wasn't in hers, either.)

Any other stories of dealing with expectations
of obedience out there?

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup@softhome.net | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/

On 10 Mar 2004 10:31:49 -0800, Doug Anderson
<ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote: mbjq@earthlink.net (Emma Anne) writes: Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote: "Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> writes: > Jack C Lipton wrote: > > Tai wrote: > >> Jack C Lipton wrote: > >>> Anybody else around here sensitive to sarcasm? > >> > >> Nope. I know sarcasm is supposed to be the "lowest > >> form of wit" but sometimes I find sarcasm > >> excrutiatingly witty and other times it's like a > >> blunt knife. > > > > I thought *puns* were supposed to be the lowest form > > of wit. > > Really? I hadn't heard that version. Pope said something about sarcasm being > the language of the devil and that he was giving it up. (Although, as he was > a satirist I'm not sure how he managed it!) He continued to allow himself irony. I rarely find sarcasm funny. Irony often is though. Irony is certainly much harder to accomplish than sarcasm, though. Especially on usenet. But the rewards are greater. I have read that if your spouse is being sarcastic with you, it's because he's been asking you in other ways and you have not been listening. That seems to be true in my marriage. Maybe. We don't use sarcasm in our relationship. In my family-of-origin, sarcasm was common and neither hostile, nor loaded. In my wife's family, her mother used sarcasm to snipe. So I had to retrain myself from the beginning of our relationship to avoid sarcasm.

So you use all of it here why? As therapy?

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> writes:
On 10 Mar 2004 10:31:49 -0800, Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote: mbjq@earthlink.net (Emma Anne) writes: Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote: > "Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> writes: > > > Jack C Lipton wrote: > > > Tai wrote: > > >> Jack C Lipton wrote: > > >>> Anybody else around here sensitive to sarcasm? > > >> > > >> Nope. I know sarcasm is supposed to be the "lowest > > >> form of wit" but sometimes I find sarcasm > > >> excrutiatingly witty and other times it's like a > > >> blunt knife. > > > > > > I thought *puns* were supposed to be the lowest form > > > of wit. > > > > Really? I hadn't heard that version. Pope said something about sarcasm being > > the language of the devil and that he was giving it up. (Although, as he was > > a satirist I'm not sure how he managed it!) > > He continued to allow himself irony. I rarely find sarcasm funny. > Irony often is though. Irony is certainly much harder to accomplish than sarcasm, though. Especially on usenet. But the rewards are greater. I have read that if your spouse is being sarcastic with you, it's because he's been asking you in other ways and you have not been listening. That seems to be true in my marriage. Maybe. We don't use sarcasm in our relationship. In my family-of-origin, sarcasm was common and neither hostile, nor loaded. In my wife's family, her mother used sarcasm to snipe. So I had to retrain myself from the beginning of our relationship to avoid sarcasm. So you use all of it here why? As therapy?

I actually use very little of it here. I use it with you sometimes,
but only when returning your own sarcasm.

Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<cj4qswsgdm.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu>...
Maybe. We don't use sarcasm in our relationship. In my family-of-origin, sarcasm was common and neither hostile, nor loaded.

I was in a relationship post-divorce with a man who had a great sense
of humor and used sarcasm all the time. We would fling affectionate
insults at each other constantly. I tend to be overly sensitive to
criticism and have a thin skin. Dating him thickened my skin and
helped me learn to laugh at myself. It was just what I needed at the
time, and great fun.
In my wife's family, her mother used sarcasm to snipe. So I had to retrain myself from the beginning of our relationship to avoid sarcasm.

Yes, that's different.

DF's family has a sarcastic streak; he tends to have a thin skin like
me. When we first started dating, he'd be very sensitive if I cracked
a witty, affectionate insult. I stopped pretty quickly. Then we
started hanging around his folks, and they were flinging the
affectionate insults constantly. He was worried what I'd think of his
family; apparently, his ex-wife and past girlfriends all didn't see
the humor in it. But I did - and I do see a lot of affection in his
family.

Over time DF and I have slowly gotten more comfortable cracking jokes
and teasing each other. I think that's gone in parallel with the level
of trust and faith that we love and accept each other.

jen

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0403110540.4f1c690d@posting.google.c om... Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<cj4qswsgdm.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu>... Maybe. We don't use sarcasm in our relationship. In my family-of-origin, sarcasm was common and neither hostile, nor loaded. I was in a relationship post-divorce with a man who had a great sense of humor and used sarcasm all the time. We would fling affectionate insults at each other constantly. I tend to be overly sensitive to criticism and have a thin skin. Dating him thickened my skin and helped me learn to laugh at myself. It was just what I needed at the time, and great fun. In my wife's family, her mother used sarcasm to snipe. So I had to retrain myself from the beginning of our relationship to avoid sarcasm. Yes, that's different.

Oddly enough, while my family tends to be sarcastic, and we're extremely
tight, I despise sarcasm in most people--and I deliberately selected a
spouse who was as "non-sarcastic" as you could imagine.

I think I did feel more hurt from my family's sarcasm than I like to admit,
because I always think of DH's warmth and sweetness as a safe haven. When
I'm with my family, I can joke with the best of them & I feel entirely
comfortable. After all, that's my lifelong dynamic with that unit. But
with DH, I let my guard down in a way I don't with *anyone* else.

Jennifer

"Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:<4Wv3c.96107$Wa.48363@news-server.bigpond.net.au>... "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in I don't want to criticize and I want the help so it is a dilemma. The way I see it you need to decide what is most important 1. Having your husband help or 2. Having the work done properly Once you decide that the rest is easy. Amy

They are both important. The way that I see it is that he is old
enough to learn how to make a bed properly (not perfectly, properly)
and if I don't teach him then I'm enabling him. There is nothing
wrong with wanting the work done properly. When he teaches me how to
prune a bush and I prune it my own way, he is not a happy camper. Yet
it's okay for him to get mad at me if I mess up one of his bushes. I
think I had this conversation with a guy about this a few weeks ago.

Maybe what I'm getting at, why does it seem that more often it's about
women needing to coddle men and it's okay for men to come right out
and say what they want and need.

>Do what we do -- don't make the bed! :-)Sheila

It's a 10 minutes or less task.

Deal with it.

Caren wrote: "Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:<4Wv3c.96107$Wa.48363@news-server.bigpond.net.au>... "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in I don't want to criticize and I want the help so it is a dilemma. The way I see it you need to decide what is most important 1. Having your husband help or 2. Having the work done properly Once you decide that the rest is easy. Amy They are both important. The way that I see it is that he is old enough to learn how to make a bed properly (not perfectly, properly) and if I don't teach him then I'm enabling him. There is nothing wrong with wanting the work done properly. When he teaches me how to prune a bush and I prune it my own way, he is not a happy camper. Yet it's okay for him to get mad at me if I mess up one of his bushes. I think I had this conversation with a guy about this a few weeks ago. Maybe what I'm getting at, why does it seem that more often it's about women needing to coddle men and it's okay for men to come right out and say what they want and need.

It's just the traditional roles being played out.

Grace wrote: Do what we do -- don't make the bed! :-) It's a 10 minutes or less task. Deal with it.

The issue here seems to be one of flexibility. Now
I realize there are people w/ OCD along with being
anal-retentive about patterns, but pressing for such
standard *at all times* would get wearing after a
while.

Now, mind you, I'm not exactly a paragon of flexible
thinking nor, IMHO, is my wife, so my remarks need
to be taken with some tolerance, here.

When a "minor task" becomes important enough to
chainsaw your spouse then there are likely to be
accumulating resentments... assuming both parties
do NOT have an identical mindset.

And you know how likely *that* is.

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup@softhome.net | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/

>>Do what we do -- don't make the bed! :-)SheilaIt's a 10 minutes or less task.Deal with it.

Sure, if it matters to you! It doesn't matter to either of us. Seriously, the
only time our bed gets made is when the cleaning people do it every other week.
Even when we change the sheets we tend to do it at night right before bed, so
we don't bother to make it neat.

Some people naturally care. Some people naturally don't. But, my point is
that, even if a person *would* care, sometimes it makes more sense to change
your expectations (especially about small things) than to continually have
conflict. Both my DH and I do that all the time. Sometimes it is best just to
let it go of things that can slide. The world will *not* fall apart just
because the bed isn't made, or the dishes didn't get washed last night, or the
clean laundry has been sitting on the table for 4 days, waiting to be put away.
In the end, it really does not matter.

Sheila

Caren wrote:
1. Having your husband help or 2. Having the work done properly Once you decide that the rest is easy. Amy They are both important.

Are they, really? To me, at least this particular thing (making bed)
seems way too unimportant to be an issue. I agree that spouses
should accommodate each others' preferences, but to a degree!
If I was supposed to do everything that my husband does to his
standard I would go crazy! Now, I am not a follower of "if you don't
like how I do things do it yourself". I think that is a sneaky way of
getting out of doing our share, but at the same time, I don't think
it's reasonable to expect our spouses to do everything the way we
like them done. There has to be a reasonable and happy medium.
And in my view, not making the bed to your liking falls in the
category of things that he should be able to do with impunity!
The way that I see it is that he is old enough to learn how to make a bed properly (not perfectly, properly)

Sure he is. He is old enough to learn a LOT of things. But why is
he expected to learn them if he has no interest? And this is one
of those things that "properly" is truly in the eye of the beholder.
and if I don't teach him then I'm enabling him.

He is not your child though. Maybe he doesn't want to learn this
particular things. Is he supposed to learn everything you WANT
to teach him?
There is nothing wrong with wanting the work done properly.

Not at all. And in this case, the way to do it is to do it yourself!
That's what I do with our bed, and it's always done to my liking
without too much effort. I do expect my husband to do a
relatively clean job when it's his turn to do the dishes. But that is
a standard that even he agrees with, it's just that because he is
sloppy and lazy, at times he just doesn't want to put the effort in.
But if I told him I like the bed fluffed up and straightened to look
fresh every day he just wouldn't agree with my standard. To him,
it really doesn't matter.
When he teaches me how to prune a bush and I prune it my own way, he is not a happy camper.

His problem.
Yet it's okay for him to get mad at me if I mess up one of his bushes.

Not at all. You should tell him that it's not OK for him to get mad
at you. That is, of course, if the bushes don't matter to you. If they
do, then you should put the effort, and not dodge the responsibility
just because he can do it better. I think the litmus test is whether
are trully different standards for something or is it a case that
one thinks "if I don't do it she/he will do it anyway, so why should
I". In the former case, though it's good to try to please our spouse,
we shouldn't be expected to live up to their standard. In the latter,
it's our duty to put in the effort to do it right.
Maybe what I'm getting at, why does it seem that more often it's about women needing to coddle men and it's okay for men to come right out and say what they want and need.

I don't think women need to coddle men, and it's OK for both
men and women to come out and say what they want. But if their
*wants* are too much and too particular they are not reasonable.
I don't see a gender difference here, except perhaps the fact that
in most cases women take the responsibility of the household chores
and set the standards. That's why we hear this kind of complaint
from women more.

>Oddly enough, while my family tends to be sarcastic, and we're extremelytight, I despise sarcasm in most people--and I deliberately selected aspouse who was as "non-sarcastic" as you could imagine.I think I did feel more hurt from my family's sarcasm than I like to admit,because I always think of DH's warmth and sweetness as a safe haven. WhenI'm with my family, I can joke with the best of them & I feel entirelycomfortable. After all, that's my lifelong dynamic with that unit. Butwith DH, I let my guard down in a way I don't with *anyone* else.Jennifer

DH and I are pretty tender with one another too. We will tease one another
gently, but I generally prefer not to be around people who are sarcastic, or
who find humor in putting down others. My BIL used to be notorious for this,
but he has mellowed with age, and I like him a *lot* better now.

Sheila

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0403121526.4810b2d1@posting.google.c om... "Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:<4Wv3c.96107$Wa.48363@news-server.bigpond.net.au>... "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in I don't want to criticize and I want the help so it is a dilemma. The way I see it you need to decide what is most important 1. Having your husband help or 2. Having the work done properly Once you decide that the rest is easy. Amy They are both important. The way that I see it is that he is old enough to learn how to make a bed properly (not perfectly, properly) and if I don't teach him then I'm enabling him. There is nothing wrong with wanting the work done properly. When he teaches me how to prune a bush and I prune it my own way, he is not a happy camper. Yet it's okay for him to get mad at me if I mess up one of his bushes. I think I had this conversation with a guy about this a few weeks ago.

Interesting. What I'm getting from you is that your relationship is based on
how your husband does things. A while ago you were saying that if it was OK
for him to meet women on the internet why wasn't it OK for you to have exs
as email friends?
Maybe what I'm getting at, why does it seem that more often it's about women needing to coddle men and it's okay for men to come right out and say what they want and need.

Same thing. Perhaps you really have an issue with the way your husband
behaves towards you? Perhaps he is good at getting you to accept his
behaviour and you are not good at getting him to accept yours? Perhaps he
has more self confidence than you? Maybe it is time you stopped comparing
your behaviour to his and started making some of your own decisions as to
how you will behave?

Amy

"Grace" <hopefullygrace@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20040312195329.09105.00001233@mb-m14.aol.com...Do what we do -- don't make the bed! :-)Sheila It's a 10 minutes or less task.


Less in my house. It only takes 1 minute to straighten the doona and
pillows.

Amy

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0403121526.4810b2d1@posting.google.c om... "Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:<4Wv3c.96107$Wa.48363@news-server.bigpond.net.au>... "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in I don't want to criticize and I want the help so it is a dilemma. The way I see it you need to decide what is most important 1. Having your husband help or 2. Having the work done properly Once you decide that the rest is easy. Amy They are both important. The way that I see it is that he is old enough to learn how to make a bed properly (not perfectly, properly) and if I don't teach him then I'm enabling him. There is nothing wrong with wanting the work done properly.When he teaches me how to prune a bush and I prune it my own way, he is not a happy camper. Yet it's okay for him to get mad at me if I mess up one of his bushes.

What is baffling me, and perhaps you could shed some light on this, is why
decision making on the bed is up to you and decision making on the bushes is
up to him. Is it not his bed too? Doesn't he get some say into the
standards the bed is made to, if he is the one making the bed? Are they not
your bushes too? Don't you get some say into how the bushes are pruned, if
you are the one doing the pruning?

Maybe I'm reading this all wrong, but it comes across to me a little like it
isn't the bed-making that is the real issue here, or the pruning, but rather
staking out territority for yourselves. It sounds like it is important to
both of you to have areas in which you/he are the acknowledged "expert", or
at least person-in-charge, and since you have acknowledged his "area" -
gardening - you expect reciprocity, and are a little pissed that you don't
get it. If I'm not reading it right, please ignore this - but if it is
reciprocity that matters here, perhaps it would be more useful to explicity
state it to him that way -

Joy

I think I had this conversation with a guy about this a few weeks ago. Maybe what I'm getting at, why does it seem that more often it's about women needing to coddle men and it's okay for men to come right out and say what they want and need.

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0403121526.4810b2d1@posting.google.c om... The way that I see it is that he is old enough to learn how to make a bed properly

Well, he is old enough, but he isn't making the bed...so based on results,
either (1) he doesn't know *how* to make a bed (doubtful--so there really is
no being "taught" to do it "properly"), or (2) he doesn't want to make the
bed.

Then the question becomes, how do you make an adult make a bed, when he
doesn't want to? I'm all for choosing the easiest path in something that's
not a *huge* issue. If I were you, I'd make the bed, because it matters to
you. It obviously doesn't ruffle your DH at all. It's only a bed.
and if I don't teach him then I'm enabling him.

I think "enabling" is too strong a term here. You're talking about
completing a simple task that your husband doesn't care to do. Aren't there
things he'll do for you that you don't want to take care of??? I know I
couldn't care less about how often the oil in my car gets changed, but
damned if my DH doesn't take the vehicles off regularly to take care of
that.

He could expect me to know when the oil needs changing & take the vehicles
in myself, and he could get annoyed that I haven't "learned" it yet
(obviously I could learn that simply enough!), and he could feel that he's
enabling me by handling that task.
wrong with wanting the work done properly. When he teaches me how to prune a bush and I prune it my own way, he is not a happy camper. Yet it's okay for him to get mad at me if I mess up one of his bushes.

IMO, it's not okay. If he doesn't like the way you prune, you leave pruning
to him. If he doesn't make the bed, you make the bed. You can each have an
area in which you control things the way you like, right?
Maybe what I'm getting at, why does it seem that more often it's about women needing to coddle men and it's okay for men to come right out and say what they want and need.

I do come out and say what I want and need, personally. And I can't say
that *for me* it seems otherwise (that men get coddled more). I see a lot
of men getting totally ripped by their wives for not doing
such-and-such...and most men I know wouldn't dare speak a word about what
their wives won't or can't do!!

Jennifer

"Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:<vFv4c.101153$Wa.15571@news-server.bigpond.net.au>... "Grace" <hopefullygrace@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message news:20040312195329.09105.00001233@mb-m14.aol.com...Do what we do -- don't make the bed! :-)Sheila It's a 10 minutes or less task. Less in my house. It only takes 1 minute to straighten the doona and pillows. Amy

What's a doona? Is that the same as a duvet?



jen

caren50@msn.com (Caren) wrote in message news:<3754f0b3.0403121526.4810b2d1@posting.google.com>... "Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:<4Wv3c.96107$Wa.48363@news-server.bigpond.net.au>... "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in I don't want to criticize and I want the help so it is a dilemma. The way I see it you need to decide what is most important 1. Having your husband help or 2. Having the work done properly Once you decide that the rest is easy. Amy They are both important. The way that I see it is that he is old enough to learn how to make a bed properly (not perfectly, properly) and if I don't teach him then I'm enabling him. There is nothing wrong with wanting the work done properly. When he teaches me how to prune a bush and I prune it my own way, he is not a happy camper. Yet it's okay for him to get mad at me if I mess up one of his bushes. I think I had this conversation with a guy about this a few weeks ago. Maybe what I'm getting at, why does it seem that more often it's about women needing to coddle men and it's okay for men to come right out and say what they want and need.

Heh. In my first marriage our first fight was over how to fold socks.
I was doing all the laundry for both of us. He didn't like the way I
folded his socks; it wasn't how his mother did it. It wasn't the
"proper" way.

Meanwhile, I think the way I fold socks is quick and efficient, takes
up less room in the drawer, and highly unlikely to get unfolded in the
drawer.

You can bet I gave him an earful on that one. And no, I didn't bother
to fold his socks after that. I just dumped them unceremoniously in
his drawer and let him deal with it.

Anyway, who's to say your way of making a bed is the "proper" way?
From what I can tell there are many and various opinions on this
subject. For me the best way is always the easiest and most efficient;
I don't have time to waste tucking in corners, etc. That's why I use a
duvet comforter, no sheet. I just stand up on the bed, grab the two
top corners, and shake. Stack pillows and I'm done. No fuss, no muss!

jen

Jennifer wrote:
IMO, it's not okay. If he doesn't like the way you prune, you leave pruning to him. If he doesn't make the bed, you make the bed. You can each have an area in which you control things the way you like, right?

Yes, this is a good policy, but is not complete! In my views there are
*yours*, *mine*, and *our* areas of responsibility and control. If the
policy is a total "whoever cares more about it should do it", it enables
one spouse who cares less about everything to dodge all housework,
because they know it'll get done by the other. There are shared areas
of housework that the couple should negotiate an acceptable standard
and both make the effort to achieve it. I don't think it's acceptable
for one person to say I don't care at all about any dirt or mess in
the kitchen, and if it was up to me I'd let dishes pile up until the dog
comes and licks them clean, so you clean them if you want because
you care *more*!

In our household my husband is far more sloppy than me, and I take
control and responsibility for many things that he really doesn't
care about, like making beds, folding laundry, etc. I have given
him the responsibility of doing his own laundry (I do mine, the
household, and kids'). This was important because early in the marriage
I realized that I am for ever sorting, hanging, folding, ironing, HIS
stuff. He simply would dump everything in a pile out of the dryer. So I
told him if he likes his shirts and pants wrinkled I am fine with it, but if
not,
I can teach him how to do them and it's up to him to keep it up. It's amazing
what an expert he has become in hanging things with the right amount of
dampness and straightening the wrinkles so nothing needs ironing and they
look good! Of course I still iron his dress shirts, but that's once in a
blue moon because he doesn't wear suits on a regular basis.

When it comes to doing dishes, I proposed that it's not acceptable
to leave the sink and counter area dirty and wet with suds all over.
A part of doing the dishes is cleaning up the area. This was a hard
thing to get him to do. Early on, when it was his turn to do the dishes
he would just get the dishes out of the sink, and I had to cleanup
after him. He was getting used to that arrangement! So I asked him
if the cleanliness of our kitchen matters at all to him or not. I asked
him if the sink and counters NEVER got cleaned, would he care? His
answer was a definite yes (he is more fussy about germs than me!).
So I told him that since this was also important to him, I expected
him to do it, even if it wasn't AS important to him as it was for me.

On the bed making, he simply cannot understand why it is important
AT ALL that the bed be made, since it'll just get unmade the moment
you get in it. I understand this and don't expect him to do it. The same
way that it's totally unimportant to me how the stuff in the garage
are arranged, so he doesn't expect me to do it.

>Anyway, who's to say your way of making a bed is the "proper" way?From what I can tell there are many and various opinions on thissubject. For me the best way is always the easiest and most efficient;I don't have time to waste tucking in corners, etc. That's why I use aduvet comforter, no sheet. I just stand up on the bed, grab the twotop corners, and shake. Stack pillows and I'm done. No fuss, no muss!jen


I'd be fine with no sheet, but my DH *has* to have a sheet. And, it *has* to
be tucked in at the bottom. (He says if I were 6'6" I'd understand!) But,
again, we don't bother to do it in the morning. He just does his sheet thing
at night as we are getting into bed. :-)

But, you bring up a good point. Things can be done differently, and neither be
better nor worse. Even if most people would *say* it was worse, it doesn't
matter -- if the person doing the job is happy with the standard, then it is
"good enough". Most of these things we're talking about come down to
preferences.

My ex hated scatter, but before we got together he'd lived in a house for 2
years and did not own a mop. I want things to be clean, but I couldn't care
less about scatter and piles of papers and such. We were different. But, he
would be angry that I wouldn't/couldn't keep on top of the scatter whereas I
just accepted that he could (and would!) go for a month and not clean the
toilet. I'd just clean the toilet, whereas he would gripe about my stacks of
paper.

That's what I said earlier about letting things go when they become a source of
continued conflict. I wasn't willing to be unhappy all the time because the
toilet was dirty.

Sheila

On Sat, 13 Mar 2004 01:09:51 -0500, Joy
<joydoesntlikespam@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote: "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message news:3754f0b3.0403121526.4810b2d1@posting.google.c om... "Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:<4Wv3c.96107$Wa.48363@news-server.bigpond.net.au>... "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in > > I don't want to criticize and I want the help so it is a dilemma. The way I see it you need to decide what is most important 1. Having your husband help or 2. Having the work done properly Once you decide that the rest is easy. Amy They are both important. The way that I see it is that he is old enough to learn how to make a bed properly (not perfectly, properly) and if I don't teach him then I'm enabling him. There is nothing wrong with wanting the work done properly.When he teaches me how to prune a bush and I prune it my own way, he is not a happy camper. Yet it's okay for him to get mad at me if I mess up one of his bushes. What is baffling me, and perhaps you could shed some light on this, is why decision making on the bed is up to you and decision making on the bushes is up to him. Is it not his bed too? Doesn't he get some say into the standards the bed is made to, if he is the one making the bed? Are they not your bushes too? Don't you get some say into how the bushes are pruned, if you are the one doing the pruning?

I think we're looking at two separate things here. One is the person with
the standards, and the other is the person with the talent. I'm a sloppy
guy, I can sleep in a bed with the corners pulled out as long as I'm
covered at night, and the sheets and such cover the vinyl of the water
bed, I'm fine. My wife is neat, she likes to see a neat bed, and she's
good at making it.

So my wife does the bed usually. If I'm up there I'll help her, or she'll
call me to help.

As far as the bushes, I waited too long one year and my wife did them
herself. I won't make that mistake again. But in this case, she is the
one with the standards for the bushes. I would prefer to let them grow a
little longer than she does, but I know that if I wait too long, she might
do them herself :))

-Tony

PS: I never criticized her job on the bushes, though. :)

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

WhansaMi wrote:
My ex hated scatter, but before we got together he'd lived in a house for 2 years and did not own a mop. I want things to be clean, but I couldn't care less about scatter and piles of papers and such. We were different. But, he would be angry that I wouldn't/couldn't keep on top of the scatter whereas I just accepted that he could (and would!) go for a month and not clean the toilet. I'd just clean the toilet, whereas he would gripe about my stacks of paper. That's what I said earlier about letting things go when they become a source of continued conflict. I wasn't willing to be unhappy all the time because the toilet was dirty.

So did he accept taking care of scatter himself or taught you how
to do it?!

Ellie wrote:When it comes to doing dishes, I proposed that it's not acceptableto leave the sink and counter area dirty and wet with suds all over.A part of doing the dishes is cleaning up the area. This was a hardthing to get him to do. Early on, when it was his turn to do the disheshe would just get the dishes out of the sink, and I had to cleanupafter him. He was getting used to that arrangement! So I asked himif the cleanliness of our kitchen matters at all to him or not. I askedhim if the sink and counters NEVER got cleaned, would he care? Hisanswer was a definite yes (he is more fussy about germs than me!).So I told him that since this was also important to him, I expectedhim to do it, even if it wasn't AS important to him as it was for me.

I've given up on that one, too. When DH "does the dishes", the counter and
stove are left unwashed. I fussed the first year or so, and it became obvious
that it would not change. So, what to do? Continue to fuss? Get myself all
worked up over 5 minutes of work?

I decided no, it isn't that important. In the context of our relationship this
isn't even a blip on screen. He is a wonderful guy, who loves me as
unconditionally as one adult can love another, and who is the most sensitive
lover I've ever encountered. We have a good life together, and I made the
conscious decision that I'm not going to let a dirty stove keep me from
enjoying it.

Of course, people work out things differently, and I'm just throwing out one
way of dealing with the issue -- one that has worked for me.

Sheila

>WhansaMi wrote: My ex hated scatter, but before we got together he'd lived in a house for 2 years and did not own a mop. I want things to be clean, but I couldn'tcare less about scatter and piles of papers and such. We were different. But,he would be angry that I wouldn't/couldn't keep on top of the scatter whereasI just accepted that he could (and would!) go for a month and not clean the toilet. I'd just clean the toilet, whereas he would gripe about my stacksof paper. That's what I said earlier about letting things go when they become asource of continued conflict. I wasn't willing to be unhappy all the time becausethe toilet was dirty.So did he accept taking care of scatter himself or taught you howto do it?!

Neither. It just stayed scattered most of the time. And he was unhappy about
it.

Oh well.

Sheila

On 13 Mar 2004 05:33:15 -0800, shinypenny
<shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote: caren50@msn.com (Caren) wrote in message news:<3754f0b3.0403121526.4810b2d1@posting.google.com>... "Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:<4Wv3c.96107$Wa.48363@news-server.bigpond.net.au>... "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in > > I don't want to criticize and I want the help so it is a dilemma. The way I see it you need to decide what is most important 1. Having your husband help or 2. Having the work done properly Once you decide that the rest is easy. Amy They are both important. The way that I see it is that he is old enough to learn how to make a bed properly (not perfectly, properly) and if I don't teach him then I'm enabling him. There is nothing wrong with wanting the work done properly. When he teaches me how to prune a bush and I prune it my own way, he is not a happy camper. Yet it's okay for him to get mad at me if I mess up one of his bushes. I think I had this conversation with a guy about this a few weeks ago. Maybe what I'm getting at, why does it seem that more often it's about women needing to coddle men and it's okay for men to come right out and say what they want and need. Heh. In my first marriage our first fight was over how to fold socks. I was doing all the laundry for both of us. He didn't like the way I folded his socks; it wasn't how his mother did it. It wasn't the "proper" way.

Reminds me of a funny story...

My wife was never a good cook before she was married, but after we got
married she seemed to have improved by osmosis (but maybe I was prejudiced
:)).

About 3 months into our marriage she tried a new recipe for some beef stew
with wine sauce that my friend had given her. I came home from work that
night and sat down at the dinner table. She scooped some of this new dish
onto my plate and put it in front of me. Before I took my first bite, my
"antennea" began quivering and I looked over and saw my wife intently
watching me.

I took the first bite and well... it was horrible. I took another bite
and my wife asked me: "Well, what do you think"? I said: "Yum, this is
pretty good". She said: "You're a liar!". I said: "You're right but I
wasn't going to be the *first* to say it!" <grin>

So we put that stuff aside, and ordered pizza or something. The next
night she tried to *fix* it, and it was still pretty bad, so she put it in
our schnauzer's dish. Our dog walked over to her dish, sniffed it, made a
face, I swear, that looked like she smelled a fart, and turned her back
and walked away from it. The stuff went into the garbage.

It is one of three dinners that my wife has messed up over the 19 years
we've been married and I have never criticized even those.

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

WhansaMi wrote:
I've given up on that one, too. When DH "does the dishes", the counter and stove are left unwashed. I fussed the first year or so, and it became obvious that it would not change. So, what to do? Continue to fuss? Get myself all worked up over 5 minutes of work? I decided no, it isn't that important. In the context of our relationship this isn't even a blip on screen. He is a wonderful guy, who loves me as unconditionally as one adult can love another, and who is the most sensitive lover I've ever encountered. We have a good life together, and I made the conscious decision that I'm not going to let a dirty stove keep me from enjoying it. Of course, people work out things differently, and I'm just throwing out one way of dealing with the issue -- one that has worked for me.

Yes, it's great that you have the wisdom to put things in perspective
and take the "big picture" approach. I try to do that too. At times, the
constant, repetitive little things that are annoying can cause me some stress
and unhappiness. These days it's more with the kids than my husband.

For example, everyone in our house, except me, opens the cabinet, takes
our a serial box or whatever else they want at the time, takes some, leave
crumbs on counter, leave box on counter, leave cabinet door open, leave kitchen!
This is indeed petty enough that I shouldn't even be noticing it. But EVERY
time I clean up the kitchen and leave, I come back to it (even 5 minute
later) to see a messy room. Just the sight of the clutter and disorganized
room gets me *a little* depressed and brings down my spirit! I really
enjoy entering a neat room, and do the lion share of keeping them that way.
I don't expect others to live up to my standard, but think it's reasonable
for everyone in the household to be considerate of others' needs to a
reasonable extent.

Kids take after their father in not seeing mess at all. I don't fuss about
their rooms, and have even given up trying to get them take care of the
kitchen. But we have a strongly enforced rule that no one except me is
allowed to eat food outside of kitchen (except for the occasions that
we are all eating together in the dining room). This way, at least the only
room that brings my spirit down is the kitchen! They are good kids and
don't intend to make me unhappy, but it's really hard for them to even
notice that cabinet door is open.

"Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message
news:slrnc56dfk.b36.tony@home.cigardiary.com...
Reminds me of a funny story...
So we put that stuff aside, and ordered pizza or something. The next night she tried to *fix* it, and it was still pretty bad, so she put it in our schnauzer's dish. Our dog walked over to her dish, sniffed it, made a face, I swear, that looked like she smelled a fart, and turned her back and walked away from it. The stuff went into the garbage.

I had to laugh - I can just picture the dog!
It is one of three dinners that my wife has messed up over the 19 years we've been married and I have never criticized even those.

Smart man. My ex once told me "there is nothing in that kitchen that you
can fix to my satisfaction". How much incentive do you think I had to cook
dinner that night? Like I sometimes say, there are reasons why he is an ex.

"WhansaMi" <whansami@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040313112446.20674.00001388@mb-m24.aol.com... Ellie wrote:When it comes to doing dishes, I proposed that it's not acceptableto leave the sink and counter area dirty and wet with suds all over.A part of doing the dishes is cleaning up the area. This was a hardthing to get him to do. Early on, when it was his turn to do the disheshe would just get the dishes out of the sink, and I had to cleanupafter him. He was getting used to that arrangement! So I asked himif the cleanliness of our kitchen matters at all to him or not. I askedhim if the sink and counters NEVER got cleaned, would he care? Hisanswer was a definite yes (he is more fussy about germs than me!).So I told him that since this was also important to him, I expectedhim to do it, even if it wasn't AS important to him as it was for me. I've given up on that one, too. When DH "does the dishes", the counter
and stove are left unwashed. I fussed the first year or so, and it became
obvious that it would not change. So, what to do? Continue to fuss? Get myself
all worked up over 5 minutes of work? I decided no, it isn't that important. In the context of our relationship
this isn't even a blip on screen. He is a wonderful guy, who loves me as unconditionally as one adult can love another, and who is the most
sensitive lover I've ever encountered. We have a good life together, and I made the conscious decision that I'm not going to let a dirty stove keep me from enjoying it. Of course, people work out things differently, and I'm just throwing out
one way of dealing with the issue -- one that has worked for me.

Part of the way I look at it is respect. I'm convinced it's not really the
work (like you said, it's five minutes) but respect - the "he thinks I'm his
slave" or similar mentality. I know, beyond any doubt, that my wife respects
me, even if she can't remember to put back my tools after using the
screwdriver to pry something open. And she knows I respect her, even if I
don't make the bed or wipe up my kitchen crumbs. So these things are just
that - little blips that amount to nothing.

In my first marriage, there was little, if any, real respect either way, so
these exact same little blips became pretty big issues for us.

JWB wrote:
Part of the way I look at it is respect. I'm convinced it's not really the work (like you said, it's five minutes) but respect - the "he thinks I'm his slave" or similar mentality.

That's true. And to me, not all household chores have the same significance.
If my husband doesn't care to fold the towels or make the bed or prune the
garden to my liking it's because these things aren't important to him, and
I happily do them myself. On the other hand if he never cleans the kitchen and
sink, I will remind him about it! That's because this is not something that's
totally unimportant to him, he doesn't like a dirty environment with ants and
cock roaches running around! If he doesn't do it it's because he knows I
will. And I think this is not a good reason to avoid the job. Of course since
we have utmost respect for each other, I just attribute it to laziness than
anything else, but I won't accept the "this is not important to me" excuse!
I know, beyond any doubt, that my wife respects me, even if she can't remember to put back my tools after using the screwdriver to pry something open.

It's good that you don't get bothered by it. But I wonder how you deal
with the situation where every time you want a screw driver you can't
find it because your wife didn't put it where it belongs. In our house
I keep a set of little things that I use regularly (scissors, screwdrivers,
tape, etc.), in a place that is off limit for all other members! So I don't have

to constantly be looking for every little thing that I need (as others do in
our house!). It feels so good to be able to say "wherever you put it last",
everytime someone asks me "where is such and such" :-)

WB wrote:
Part of the way I look at it is respect. I'm convinced it's not really the work (like you said, it's five minutes) but respect - the "he thinks I'm
his slave" or similar mentality.

That's true. And to me, not all household chores have the same significance.
If my husband doesn't care to fold the towels or make the bed or prune the
garden to my liking it's because these things aren't important to him, and
I happily do them myself. On the other hand if he never cleans the kitchen
and sink, I will remind him about it! That's because this is not something
that's totally unimportant to him, he doesn't like a dirty environment with
ants and cock roaches running around! If he doesn't do it it's because he
knows I will. And I think this is not a good reason to avoid the job.
Of course since we have utmost respect for each other, I just attribute it
to laziness than anything else, but I won't accept the "this is not important
to me" excuse!
I know, beyond any doubt, that my wife respects me, even if she can't remember to put back my tools after using the screwdriver to pry something open.

It's good that you don't get bothered by it. But I wonder how you deal
with the situation where every time you want a screw driver you can't
find it because your wife didn't put it where it belongs. In our house
I keep a set of little things that I use regularly (scissors, screwdrivers,
tape, etc.), in a place that is off limit for all other members! So I don't
have to constantly be looking for every little thing that I need
(as others do in our house!). It feels so good to be able to say
"wherever you put it last", everytime someone asks me "where is such and such"
:-)

"Ellie" <ellie_first@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:405345BC.D30B58AE@hotmail.com... JWB wrote: Part of the way I look at it is respect. I'm convinced it's not really
the work (like you said, it's five minutes) but respect - the "he thinks I'm
his slave" or similar mentality. That's true. And to me, not all household chores have the same
significance. If my husband doesn't care to fold the towels or make the bed or prune the garden to my liking it's because these things aren't important to him, and I happily do them myself. On the other hand if he never cleans the kitchen
and sink, I will remind him about it! That's because this is not something
that's totally unimportant to him, he doesn't like a dirty environment with ants
and cock roaches running around! If he doesn't do it it's because he knows I will. And I think this is not a good reason to avoid the job. Of course
since we have utmost respect for each other, I just attribute it to laziness
than anything else, but I won't accept the "this is not important to me"
excuse!

Ok, yes, for something like that, I have to agree. I was prettymuch assuming
that food wasn't left under the bed or some other "gross" thing - anything
that results in ants or the like isn't acceptable. I leave kitchen crumbs
because I know the sla... my wife will clean them :)

I know, beyond any doubt, that my wife respects me, even if she can't remember to put back my tools after using the screwdriver to pry something open. It's good that you don't get bothered by it. But I wonder how you deal with the situation where every time you want a screw driver you can't find it because your wife didn't put it where it belongs. In our house I keep a set of little things that I use regularly (scissors,
screwdrivers, tape, etc.), in a place that is off limit for all other members! So I
don't have to constantly be looking for every little thing that I need (as others do
in our house!). It feels so good to be able to say "wherever you put it
last", everytime someone asks me "where is such and such" :-)

I made her a little tool set to keep upstairs, but I cringe everytime she
goes into my garage (yes, MY garage ;) to do something.

"Jennifer" <JenPam2003@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<2aCdnTTwralHVc_dRVn-gw@comcast.com>... "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message news:3754f0b3.0403121526.4810b2d1@posting.google.c om... The way that I see it is that he is old enough to learn how to make a bed properly Well, he is old enough, but he isn't making the bed...so based on results, either (1) he doesn't know *how* to make a bed (doubtful--so there really is no being "taught" to do it "properly"), or (2) he doesn't want to make the bed. Then the question becomes, how do you make an adult make a bed, when he doesn't want to? I'm all for choosing the easiest path in something that's not a *huge* issue. If I were you, I'd make the bed, because it matters to you. It obviously doesn't ruffle your DH at all. It's only a bed. and if I don't teach him then I'm enabling him. I think "enabling" is too strong a term here. You're talking about completing a simple task that your husband doesn't care to do. Aren't there things he'll do for you that you don't want to take care of??? I know I couldn't care less about how often the oil in my car gets changed, but damned if my DH doesn't take the vehicles off regularly to take care of that. He could expect me to know when the oil needs changing & take the vehicles in myself, and he could get annoyed that I haven't "learned" it yet (obviously I could learn that simply enough!), and he could feel that he's enabling me by handling that task. wrong with wanting the work done properly. When he teaches me how to prune a bush and I prune it my own way, he is not a happy camper. Yet it's okay for him to get mad at me if I mess up one of his bushes. IMO, it's not okay. If he doesn't like the way you prune, you leave pruning to him. If he doesn't make the bed, you make the bed. You can each have an area in which you control things the way you like, right? Maybe what I'm getting at, why does it seem that more often it's about women needing to coddle men and it's okay for men to come right out and say what they want and need. I do come out and say what I want and need, personally. And I can't say that *for me* it seems otherwise (that men get coddled more). I see a lot of men getting totally ripped by their wives for not doing such-and-such...and most men I know wouldn't dare speak a word about what their wives won't or can't do!! Jennifer

So let me get this straight. If I want a better job done, I should do
it myself. If my husband wants a better job done, he should do it
himself. The thing is, gardening is something that is enjoyable and
I'm just learning how to garden. I would much rather have someone say
to me, "nice hyacinths"!!! No one walks into my house and says,"you
have the shiniest toilet in the neighborhood" But that is straying
from the point. My point is about learning, growing and taking on
tasks that we'd like to do and sometimes wouldn't like to do.

What else I hear you saying is that we should only do what we do well
and not push our limits or see ourselves as capable in other areas?
Do you honestly think that I "enjoy" making beds? Do I find joy in
cleaning the kitchen counter, scrubbing the sink with smelly ajax and
fondle the laundry that I fold? :-)) I'd rather be at the beach
quite frankly or at the very least, lying on the couch reading a book.
However, we don't have money for someone to come in and clean each
week and my husband has no "desire" to do it.

Do you have your children do chores only if they like to do them? I
am not being sarcastic at all in case it is coming across that way. I
am always curious about what ticks in other people's minds and lives.

And for the record...I work at home. I run a business of my own and
volunteer at my daughter's school weekly.

I see this issue as a loaded issue and it's not as simple as just do
this and this and it'll work. Also for the record, I'm not anal about
the bed being perfect. I'd settle with it looking like an ounce of
effort was put into it. Just as, my husband can't expect me to get
the pruning perfectly and I will make mistakes, but if I care to learn
and care to do something that can save him time, I have a brain to
learn it. The bed...well, if he can do a decent job (as any one
really is capable) it would save me time.

Some of the issues that I see it as is caring, helping and loving -
isn't that what relationships are all about?

>I see this issue as a loaded issue and it's not as simple as just dothis and this and it'll work. Also for the record, I'm not anal aboutthe bed being perfect. I'd settle with it looking like an ounce ofeffort was put into it. Just as, my husband can't expect me to getthe pruning perfectly and I will make mistakes, but if I care to learnand care to do something that can save him time, I have a brain tolearn it. The bed...well, if he can do a decent job (as any onereally is capable) it would save me time.Some of the issues that I see it as is caring, helping and loving -isn't that what relationships are all about?

See, I see it more about choosing your partner well than changing them once you
marry them.

If my husband had wanted a neat-freak, he should have married one. I certainly
didn't hid the fact from him that I am a "pile-maker". If I wanted a man who
washed the stove, I should have married someone different -- or at least come
to some meeting of the minds before marriage -- I had ample opportunity to see
how he cleaned the kitchen before I married him.

In both cases (his and mine), we made the decision *before marriage* that piles
of papers and stove tops weren't important enough to derail our relationship.
Do I really want to make it important enough now to make myself miserable with
it?

We've negotiated basic chores that need to be done, and who is going to do
them. To whatever degree possible, we try to assign chores to the one for whom
that particular chore is the least onerous. Then, they substantially get done.
And, I do mean substantially. For me, substantially done is enough. In the
balance of things, the difference between
"substantially" and "perfectly" or "to my satisfaction" isn't enough to make
either one of us miserable over it.

Sheila

>For example, everyone in our house, except me, opens the cabinet, takesour a serial box or whatever else they want at the time, takes some, leavecrumbs on counter, leave box on counter, leave cabinet door open, leavekitchen!

ROFL!! This is hilarious, because I have a "cabinet" thing too! Closet doors
being open is fine, but open cabinet doors make me NUTS!
This is indeed petty enough that I shouldn't even be noticing it. But EVERYtime I clean up the kitchen and leave, I come back to it (even 5 minutelater) to see a messy room. Just the sight of the clutter and disorganizedroom gets me *a little* depressed and brings down my spirit! I reallyenjoy entering a neat room, and do the lion share of keeping them that way.I don't expect others to live up to my standard, but think it's reasonablefor everyone in the household to be considerate of others' needs to areasonable extent.

But, as you know... your kids don't even see it. Neither does your husband.
To draw a parallel, imagine that it drove your husband crazy to have the light
on in a room when he came in (I'm trying to choose something that we all do
every day, without thinking about it... hope it works!!). So, you are in the
kitchen, and head to the dining room, without turning off the light. He comes
in. "Geez," he thinks. "The light is on, no one is here, electricity bill
going up.... ARRRGGH." Really, would you see having to remember *every time*
to turn off a light when exiting a room to be something you could do? (I know
I couldn't!) If you didn't, would you be showing disrespectful behavior toward
him? I don't think so.

Kids take after their father in not seeing mess at all. I don't fuss abouttheir rooms, and have even given up trying to get them take care of thekitchen. But we have a strongly enforced rule that no one except me isallowed to eat food outside of kitchen (except for the occasions thatwe are all eating together in the dining room). This way, at least the onlyroom that brings my spirit down is the kitchen! They are good kids anddon't intend to make me unhappy, but it's really hard for them to evennotice that cabinet door is open.

Yep, exactly.

Sheila

>JWB wrote: Part of the way I look at it is respect. I'm convinced it's not really the work (like you said, it's five minutes) but respect - the "he thinks I'mhis slave" or similar mentality.That's true. And to me, not all household chores have the same significance.If my husband doesn't care to fold the towels or make the bed or prune thegarden to my liking it's because these things aren't important to him, andI happily do them myself. On the other hand if he never cleans the kitchenandsink, I will remind him about it! That's because this is not something that'stotally unimportant to him, he doesn't like a dirty environment with ants andcock roaches running around!

Okay... gotta say this: I wipe off the counter, swipe the crumbs into my hand,
and put them in the garbage. **The crumbs are still inside the house!!**
Roaches do not spontaneously spring from crumbs like Athena from Zeus's head,
and they don't mind eating out of garbage cans or the half-eaten bag of potato
chips. ;-)

JWB, I think you are right that feeling resentful over things like this are
part of a larger picture of not being respected, or at least, I think that
feeling respected by your mate will allow you to let it go, because you aren't
feeling taken advantage of. I think I make more benevolent assumptions about
his motivations because I believe that he respects me, and that changes my
feelings about the situation.
>I just attribute it to laziness than
anything else, but I won't accept the "this is not important to me" excuse!>>>

I guess both my DH and I have an equal appreciation for "laziness". We have
'bum days" when we do NOTHING we don't want to do. For the most part, we tend
to go in cycles where I'm more productive than he is, or vice versa. I might
be doing laundry, cleaning the study and making stew while he sleeps till 1:00
p.m. on a Saturday. Other times, he'll be putting together something for the
house while I'm writing on the computer. I guess because we are equally "lazy"
(albeit at different times) we generally don't resent it when the other person
is.

(I'll add, however, that when I'm PMSsing I'm more likely to snipe about
something like that, even though I know it is both unreasonable and not typical
for our relationship. The good news is that DH knows this *isn't* typical and
just throws chocolate at me the same way one throws a sirloin to a lion to
appease her, and deals with it!)

Sheila

shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) wrote in message news:<c8cb5319.0403130533.7d25c864@posting.google.com>... caren50@msn.com (Caren) wrote in message news:<3754f0b3.0403121526.4810b2d1@posting.google.com>... "Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:<4Wv3c.96107$Wa.48363@news-server.bigpond.net.au>... "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in > > I don't want to criticize and I want the help so it is a dilemma. The way I see it you need to decide what is most important 1. Having your husband help or 2. Having the work done properly Once you decide that the rest is easy. Amy They are both important. The way that I see it is that he is old enough to learn how to make a bed properly (not perfectly, properly) and if I don't teach him then I'm enabling him. There is nothing wrong with wanting the work done properly. When he teaches me how to prune a bush and I prune it my own way, he is not a happy camper. Yet it's okay for him to get mad at me if I mess up one of his bushes. I think I had this conversation with a guy about this a few weeks ago. Maybe what I'm getting at, why does it seem that more often it's about women needing to coddle men and it's okay for men to come right out and say what they want and need. Heh. In my first marriage our first fight was over how to fold socks. I was doing all the laundry for both of us. He didn't like the way I folded his socks; it wasn't how his mother did it. It wasn't the "proper" way. Meanwhile, I think the way I fold socks is quick and efficient, takes up less room in the drawer, and highly unlikely to get unfolded in the drawer. You can bet I gave him an earful on that one. And no, I didn't bother to fold his socks after that. I just dumped them unceremoniously in his drawer and let him deal with it. Anyway, who's to say your way of making a bed is the "proper" way? From what I can tell there are many and various opinions on this subject. For me the best way is always the easiest and most efficient; I don't have time to waste tucking in corners, etc. That's why I use a duvet comforter, no sheet. I just stand up on the bed, grab the two top corners, and shake. Stack pillows and I'm done. No fuss, no muss! jen

I dont' recall saying "properly". I'd be happy with it looking like
someone isn't still sleeping in it. I don't tuck anything in either.
Just a smooth out job and fluff the pillows.

"shinypenny" What's a doona? Is that the same as a duvet?

I believe so. Its a feather or synthetic filled quilt. We just put a cover
over it (like a big pillow case) and use a fitted sheet for the mattress.
Easy. No tucking in required. So making the bed is really just straightening
the covers.

Amy

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in I dont' recall saying "properly". I'd be happy with it looking like someone isn't still sleeping in it. I don't tuck anything in either. Just a smooth out job and fluff the pillows.

Now we are getting somewhere. This man cannot straighten a duvet and fluff
pillows? Have you explained to him nicely how it would it be a great help to
you if he straightened the bed to your standard just like you are trying to
learn to prune to his standard?

Amy

WhansaMi wrote:
But, as you know... your kids don't even see it. Neither does your husband. To draw a parallel, imagine that it drove your husband crazy to have the light on in a room when he came in (I'm trying to choose something that we all do every day, without thinking about it... hope it works!!).

ooh, ooh, ooh, this is another thing in our house that can drive me nuts :-)
Again, everyone except me leave lights on no matter what!
So, you are in the kitchen, and head to the dining room, without turning off the light. He comes in. "Geez," he thinks. "The light is on, no one is here, electricity bill going up.... ARRRGGH." Really, would you see having to remember *every time* to turn off a light when exiting a room to be something you could do?

*I* actually do! But I get your point, and realize that my family simply
can't tell the difference between lights on and off, except for the fact
that they can't see in dark!
(I know I couldn't!) If you didn't, would you be showing disrespectful behavior toward him? I don't think so.

Not at all. I don't think it's showing disrespect, nor do I expect them
to remember it ALL the time. But I think it's quite reasonable to expect
them to be conscious about it and *try* to remember. I don't expect
my kids to keep their rooms neat because they have clearly told me that
it's their room and they like it that way (one of them once told me that
the clutter on the floor was his *art work*). See, the difference between
these two things is that in the former case, they all agree that it's not a good
practice to leave all the lights on. It's wasteful at the global level (we are
all conscious about overconsumption of energy in our part of the world),
and it's harmful to our finances. So this is not a question of different
standards, it's only a matter of putting more effort into something that
they KNOW is right. I think it's unacceptable for them to simply say
"well we can't bother remembering". This is a character flaw in my view.
Having said that, I never make a big deal about it, nor do I let it really
get to me. But it is something that I do bring up from time to time and
make sure they understand that they are being careless!

Caren wrote:
They are both important. The way that I see it is that he is old enough to learn how to make a bed properly (not perfectly, properly) and if I don't teach him then I'm enabling him. There is nothing wrong with wanting the work done properly. When he teaches me how to prune a bush and I prune it my own way, he is not a happy camper. Yet it's okay for him to get mad at me if I mess up one of his bushes. I think I had this conversation with a guy about this a few weeks ago. Maybe what I'm getting at, why does it seem that more often it's about women needing to coddle men and it's okay for men to come right out and say what they want and need.
Anyway, who's to say your way of making a bed is the "proper" way? From what I can tell there are many and various opinions on this subject. For me the best way is always the easiest and most efficient; I don't have time to waste tucking in corners, etc. That's why I use a duvet comforter, no sheet. I just stand up on the bed, grab the two top corners, and shake. Stack pillows and I'm done. No fuss, no muss! I dont' recall saying "properly".

Caren, I don't mean to *catch* you, but am a bit confused. Didn't you
write what Jen quoted above? Maybe I am missing something, but your
emphasis was "(not perfectly, properly)".
I'd be happy with it looking like someone isn't still sleeping in it. I don't tuck anything in either. Just a smooth out job and fluff the pillows.

Yep--this would be when Skip just heads out to the shop! ~:-)
And usually manages to bring home something with chocolate in it. Too
funny.
~Kimberlee

"WhansaMi" <whansami@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040313181239.08979.00001440@mb-: (I'll add, however, that when I'm
PMSsing I'm more likely to snipe about
: something like that, even though I know it is both unreasonable and not
typical
: for our relationship. The good news is that DH knows this *isn't* typical
and
: just throws chocolate at me the same way one throws a sirloin to a lion to
: appease her, and deals with it!)
:
: Sheila
:

"Ellie" <ellie_first@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:40533BAA.B1562D80@hotmail.com...
For example, everyone in our house, except me, opens the cabinet, takes our a serial box or whatever else they want at the time, takes some, leave crumbs on counter, leave box on counter, leave cabinet door open, leave
kitchen! This is indeed petty enough that I shouldn't even be noticing it. But
EVERY time I clean up the kitchen and leave, I come back to it (even 5 minute later) to see a messy room. Just the sight of the clutter and disorganized room gets me *a little* depressed and brings down my spirit! I really enjoy entering a neat room, and do the lion share of keeping them that
way. I don't expect others to live up to my standard, but think it's reasonable for everyone in the household to be considerate of others' needs to a reasonable extent. Kids take after their father in not seeing mess at all. I don't fuss about their rooms, and have even given up trying to get them take care of the kitchen.

IMO, this is where you have the opportunity to make a change to create a
household more to your liking. I don't think it's fair to try to "teach"
your husband as if he were a child, but your children? Well, they're
children! <g> (Don't say it, I know I'm a genius!!!) ;-)~

My husband is supremely disorganized, while I am a neat freak. We have kids
together. I will *NOT* have a messy house. Period. And at the same time,
I won't do the lion's share, as you mention. I'm not going to get on my DH
about doing 50% of the housework (he does more child care and other parts of
running a home/business), but the kids--they sure as heck can do their
share.

I would get depressed--not a little, but a LOT--if my children expected me
to clean up after *them*. Hell, I already gave them life, the least they
can do is give me some help!! :-) I don't know how old your kids are, but
mine are 9, 9 and 5. They can do nearly everything I do in the house. Most
of the stuff they do is on their chore charts, but sometimes I just want
them to do extra. I'm always trying to communicate to them how to "see"
what needs to be done.

I swear I nearly fell over today thinking DD9 was an angel...she "saw" one
of those things that needed doing. I was completely shocked to see she
hadn't emptied the dishwasher--she *never* forgets (unlike a couple of times
she forgot to feed the dog, but then she didn't get snacks...so she
remembered the dog :-)). Anyway, I am SO glad I didn't get upset. I went
upstairs to ask her, "Why didn't you empty the dishwasher??" Turns out DH
had forgotten to run it the night before, so DD9 *couldn't* empty it in the
morning. Completely on her own, she found the dishwashing detergent,
figured out how to load and run the dishwasher, and was waiting for the
dishes to be dry and clean.

GAH! My eyes nearly fell out of my head with pride!!! :-D But it's all a
work in progress. There are just as many times the kids will go by
something that's fallen down without picking it up, or leave a cup in the
playroom...but I can see it paying off, and my ideal is that my kids will be
somewhere, anywhere, and they'll want to pitch in to keep things neat and
orderly.

This would only matter to a neat person like me, and like you, Ellie...so
that's why I'm bringing it up!
But we have a strongly enforced rule that no one except me is allowed to eat food outside of kitchen (except for the occasions that we are all eating together in the dining room). This way, at least the
only room that brings my spirit down is the kitchen! They are good kids and don't intend to make me unhappy, but it's really hard for them to even notice that cabinet door is open.

But don't you think that it's just a habit (leaving a door open, or
forgetting a task)?

I know the one thing SD17 would constantly neglect was putting her shoes
away in the shoe cupboard. I mean, I'd provided this beautiful storage
cabinet right by the front door, lol (my DH retrofitted a cupboard with all
sorts of cubbies). I reminded her a few times, but then...if she left her
shoes, they were mine for a while. It didn't take more than a couple of
times of her shoes being grounded for her to get it together.

Some people might not mind shoes around, but for me, it's 6 people with lots
of footwear...and different things matter to different people. A cabinet
door isn't on my particular radar screen--but if it bothers you, don't you
think that if you asked the person who'd left it open to return to the
kitchen to close it (leaving whatever he/she was doing), it would occur to
that person to remember to close it?

Jennifer

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0403131245.693abb48@posting.google.c om...
So let me get this straight. If I want a better job done, I should do it myself. If my husband wants a better job done, he should do it himself.

Yes, absolutely, if "better" is something for which you establish a standard
(e.g., I like my beds just so; I like my counters to look shiny) *and* if
there is some reciprocity within a household. I think JWB made the best
point about equal respect. I guess looking at my own relationship with DH,
I can say that I have no problem doing the "better job" in one area and
letting him step in to do his version of a "better job" in another because I
know that he knows that I give my all, and he knows that I know that he
gives his all. :-)
The thing is, gardening is something that is enjoyable and I'm just learning how to garden. I would much rather have someone say to me, "nice hyacinths"!!! No one walks into my house and says,"you have the shiniest toilet in the neighborhood" But that is straying from the point. My point is about learning, growing and taking on tasks that we'd like to do and sometimes wouldn't like to do.

But you can't teach someone to learn if he doesn't want to learn. You want
to learn how to garden, so that's great. You're okay with your DH teaching
you about pruning (or you're not, and either way I think he should be proud
of your efforts). Can you say that your husband would say, "Making a bed is
something that is enjoyable and I'm just learning how to make a bed"?

I can see what you're saying, that you often take on tasks that you *don't
like to do* but you do them anyway. Doesn't your husband do that, though,
but with *other* tasks outside of bedmaking? I don't think cherry-picking
family jobs is okay, but that's why I've asked if he pitches in with other
aspects of running the household. If not, then it's not cool that he
doesn't make the bed--not because it's one task, but because it represents
one of a number of tasks that he's choosing not to do.
What else I hear you saying is that we should only do what we do well and not push our limits or see ourselves as capable in other areas? Do you honestly think that I "enjoy" making beds? Do I find joy in cleaning the kitchen counter, scrubbing the sink with smelly ajax and fondle the laundry that I fold? :-))

Er, well, I like doing the laundry. :-D Doesn't it smell nice & feel so
good all warm & fluffy? Okay, now I'm letting this get away from me, lol...
:::imagines the dryer spinning around:::

Where was I? No, of course we should do what we think needs to be done.
That's why, again, I asked if your DH does enough in other areas that it
makes his contribution somewhat comparable to your own. If the answer is
no, then I think he should do more around the house--bedmaking, laundry,
whatever. It doesn't matter, but you need him to do more.

I also work at home. I'm VP of our business and I draw a salary. I also
volunteer when I can, so our situations are somewhat similar. My DH is a
very busy man, too! :-)
Do you have your children do chores only if they like to do them? I am not being sarcastic at all in case it is coming across that way. I am always curious about what ticks in other people's minds and lives.

ROFL!! HELL, no! ;-) I'm sort of Taskmaster at home...my kids have a ton
of chores, and they have to do them, like it or not. But I'm not going to
present my husband, an adult, with a list of chores I think he should do.
We've worked out what we both prefer to do, and in the end it's a wash.
That means he slept with the baby twins while I was sleeping in another
room, and it means I did all the legal legwork and research to compete
against a rival company. It's not quid pro quo, but it all works out in the
end, IMO.

IF you get that sense of reciprocity (or what JWB mentioned, that each
partner is giving & getting respect), then I think what you're doing is
working great. It obviously doesn't have to be *my* way. My way doesn't
even work for my friends down the street, you know?? :-)
I see this issue as a loaded issue and it's not as simple as just do this and this and it'll work.

Right (see above). :-)
learn it. The bed...well, if he can do a decent job (as any one really is capable) it would save me time.

You have to KNOW in your heart, though, that he can do a decent job. My
point is that he's not doing it, so this is more about you feeling that he
isn't caring enough about your desires to meet your request to make the bed.
And if I'm totally off base, well, it's late and my sinuses are acting up
<g>.

Jennifer

"WhansaMi" <whansami@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040313175525.08979.00001436@mb-m14.aol.com...Some of the issues that I see it as is caring, helping and loving -isn't that what relationships are all about? See, I see it more about choosing your partner well than changing them
once you marry them.

That's a good point. I know darn well that I would NOT have had children
with DH if he hadn't sworn to be the one to handle infancy. I don't "do"
babies, lol...but I'm great with older kids. He was true to his word and
did the majority of the child care that first year for the twins and then
our singleton. AAMOF, before we even conceived our youngest, we discussed
*at length* how we would arrange our schedules appropriately.

If DH, after we'd had the kids, had decided, "Well, screw it, this is tough,
and I don't want to deal with infants either!" then we would have had a
major problem. At the very least, we wouldn't have had our youngest; who
knows how our relationship would have survived.

You sort of have a preconception about whom you're marrying. I had a great
"test case," because my then-boyfriend came with a 1-year-old little girl
<g>. I knew that he could do "the infant thing" before I tested him on our
own biological children.

As for being neat v. being messy, I guess I'm sort of prejudiced toward
feeling sorry for the messy person, lol!! (Sheila, you have to see my
tender heart here.) Very early on, I assured my DH that I'd pick up after
him, the poor slob. ;-) To this day, he reminds me of those sweet words I
issued in our early years of bliss and blind love!!! But I do take into
account that I knew he was a person who runs late, doesn't keep things
particularly tidy, etc. when we got together.
In both cases (his and mine), we made the decision *before marriage* that
piles of papers and stove tops weren't important enough to derail our
relationship. Do I really want to make it important enough now to make myself miserable
with it?

It's still hard for me to deal with DH being late. It *seems* so freaking
passive-aggressive, but I know he's got a great heart and he really, really,
really honestly just cannot keep to the clock. I find myself getting angry
because I feel it's deliberate, but then I remind myself of everything I
know and cherish about DH, and I try to dial it down. For me, that's
definitely a trigger still after 15+ years together. I choose (in my saner
moments) not to be miserable about it. Besides, yelling at him over it for
a year or so early in the relationship never worked!!! ;-)

I remind myself that it's very difficult to live with another person. In
truth, there are probably 3 people in this world I could live with
full-time, and DH (lucky for me) is one of them. Sometimes I have to choose
not to scream, but generally it's worth it <g>.

Jennifer

Jennifer wrote:
But we have a strongly enforced rule that no one except me is allowed to eat food outside of kitchen (except for the occasions that we are all eating together in the dining room). This way, at least the only room that brings my spirit down is the kitchen! They are good kids and don't intend to make me unhappy, but it's really hard for them to even notice that cabinet door is open. But don't you think that it's just a habit (leaving a door open, or forgetting a task)?

Yes, it is. A habit that I haven't been able to break. But then,
they are old now, and soon will be out the door. So I prefer
to enjoy them while they're around than train them well!
I may have failed in this area, but overall I am very proud of
them.
door isn't on my particular radar screen--but if it bothers you, don't you think that if you asked the person who'd left it open to return to the kitchen to close it (leaving whatever he/she was doing), it would occur to that person to remember to close it?

Huh! That's what I thought and have been doing for years!
Not only it hasn't cured their annoying habit (my husbands too),
they LOVE it!! See, they all really want to please me, just don't
want to put the effort into thinking and remembering ahead. So
they happily come back to the kitchen and close the darned
cabinet door, mumble "sorry", grin at me, and leave!

The thing is, at that point, I have already come to a disorderly
kitchen (which I don't like), have my spirit down (:-)), and
calling them, waiting for them to answer back especially if
they are somewhere far away or on the phone, and waiting for
them to get to the kitchen to do it is more stressful than doing it
myself. But I still do it at times, because I don't want them to
forget that their nasty little habits bother me!

Jennifer wrote:
What else I hear you saying is that we should only do what we do well and not push our limits or see ourselves as capable in other areas? Do you honestly think that I "enjoy" making beds? Do I find joy in cleaning the kitchen counter, scrubbing the sink with smelly ajax and fondle the laundry that I fold? :-)) Er, well, I like doing the laundry. :-D Doesn't it smell nice & feel so good all warm & fluffy?

I see it differently. To me, it's not whether one *likes* the chore
itself that is the criteria for doing it, but how much we care about
the *result* of the chore. Neither one of us likes domestic work
in general! Almost every chore around the house is one that is done
because it needs to be done for us to be happy living in the house,
not because we love doing it.

My husband cares about a certain level of organization in the garage,
I couldn't care less. So he does the garage, even though he doesn't
like doing it any more than me. I care about nicely folded and
unwrinkled sheets and towels, so I take care of laundry. I don't
enjoy folding them (nice smell or not!), but I like the result. Hubby
would be happy to leave them in the dryer and pull out crumbled
sheets and towels whenever he needs them. Kitchen sink? I like it
sparkling and shiny, he is happy as long as there is no visible rotting
stuff stuck around it! But this is one area that I have been able to
make him improve a little (by drawing on his fear of germs and bacteria,
which I don't believe in as much!).

WhansaMi wrote:
>>I just attribute it to laziness than anything else, but I won't accept the "this is not important to me" excuse!>>> I guess both my DH and I have an equal appreciation for "laziness". We have 'bum days" when we do NOTHING we don't want to do.

Oh, I have an appreciation for that too. Occasional "bum days"
are great, and we enjoy them too. However, there is a BIG
difference between that and habitual laziness that becomes
part of one's personality.

Ellie wrote: Jennifer wrote: What else I hear you saying is that we should only do what we do well and not push our limits or see ourselves as capable in other areas? Do you honestly think that I "enjoy" making beds? Do I find joy in cleaning the kitchen counter, scrubbing the sink with smelly ajax and fondle the laundry that I fold? :-)) Er, well, I like doing the laundry. :-D Doesn't it smell nice & feel so good all warm & fluffy? I see it differently. To me, it's not whether one *likes* the chore itself that is the criteria for doing it, but how much we care about the *result* of the chore. Neither one of us likes domestic work in general! Almost every chore around the house is one that is done because it needs to be done for us to be happy living in the house, not because we love doing it. My husband cares about a certain level of organization in the garage,
I couldn't care less.

Isn't this supposed to read, I could care less? Or is it the way you said?
I always get this one mixed up. :-)

>> I couldn't care less.Isn't this supposed to read, I could care less? Or is it the way you said?I always get this one mixed up. :-)

I always say, "I couldn't care less", as in "it would be impossible for me to
care less about whether or not this occurs".

Sheila

WhansaMi wrote:
I couldn't care less.Isn't this supposed to read, I could care less? Or is it the way you said?I always get this one mixed up. :-) I always say, "I couldn't care less", as in "it would be impossible for me to care less about whether or not this occurs".

Me too. Saying "I care less" means I do care *some*, therefore it's
possible for me to care less!

"Ellie" <ellie_first@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:405486C8.6DFB34F8@hotmail.com... Jennifer wrote: What else I hear you saying is that we should only do what we do well and not push our limits or see ourselves as capable in other areas? Do you honestly think that I "enjoy" making beds? Do I find joy in cleaning the kitchen counter, scrubbing the sink with smelly ajax and fondle the laundry that I fold? :-)) Er, well, I like doing the laundry. :-D Doesn't it smell nice & feel
so good all warm & fluffy? I see it differently. To me, it's not whether one *likes* the chore itself that is the criteria for doing it, but how much we care about the *result* of the chore. Neither one of us likes domestic work in general! Almost every chore around the house is one that is done because it needs to be done for us to be happy living in the house, not because we love doing it.

Well there is another aspect to consider. The 'door mat' feeling that people
get when they do chores. I know myself that it often feels very
uncomfortable cleaning up after other people. Its demeaning. There are
people who never seem to suffer from this but I certainly do. To me it is
more important to have people help with certain chores than it is to see the
job done to my standard.

Amy

"Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:pgb5c.103942$Wa.63770@news-server.bigpond.net.au... "Ellie" <ellie_first@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:405486C8.6DFB34F8@hotmail.com... Jennifer wrote: > What else I hear you saying is that we should only do what we do
well > and not push our limits or see ourselves as capable in other areas? > Do you honestly think that I "enjoy" making beds? Do I find joy in > cleaning the kitchen counter, scrubbing the sink with smelly ajax
and > fondle the laundry that I fold? :-)) Er, well, I like doing the laundry. :-D Doesn't it smell nice & feel so good all warm & fluffy? I see it differently. To me, it's not whether one *likes* the chore itself that is the criteria for doing it, but how much we care about the *result* of the chore. Neither one of us likes domestic work in general! Almost every chore around the house is one that is done because it needs to be done for us to be happy living in the house, not because we love doing it. Well there is another aspect to consider. The 'door mat' feeling that
people get when they do chores. I know myself that it often feels very uncomfortable cleaning up after other people. Its demeaning. There are people who never seem to suffer from this but I certainly do.

While for me, I like cleaning up after people. I'm sorta inherently
selfish...so when I have the opportunity to be domestic and helpful in what
I'm able to do (clean, organize, straighten), I'm pleased to do it. I would
hate feeling like a doormat, though.

Jennifer

"Ellie" <ellie_first@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:405482A9.7F2922B0@hotmail.com... Jennifer wrote:
Yes, it is. A habit that I haven't been able to break. But then, they are old now, and soon will be out the door. So I prefer to enjoy them while they're around than train them well!

Understood! DH and I have thrown up our hands about various aspects of our
teen's behavior, because she's off to college in a few months. :-) Just
tonight, I was kidding her about something she just "can't" do, and you know
what? It really *doesn't* matter the same way when you know you only have a
short time to have them around. I do realize that I'll miss her more than
I'll miss not having gotten her to remember to make her bed (yes, she's one
of those who just can't remember to make her bed, lol!!). From now on,
she's going to be feathering her own nest at college, and if she can live in
it...kudos for her <g>.
door isn't on my particular radar screen--but if it bothers you, don't
you think that if you asked the person who'd left it open to return to the kitchen to close it (leaving whatever he/she was doing), it would occur
to that person to remember to close it? Huh! That's what I thought and have been doing for years! Not only it hasn't cured their annoying habit (my husbands too), they LOVE it!! See, they all really want to please me, just don't want to put the effort into thinking and remembering ahead. So they happily come back to the kitchen and close the darned cabinet door, mumble "sorry", grin at me, and leave!

ROFL!! :-D Well, it's all about keeping Mama happy... ;-)

Jennifer

"Jennifer" <JenPam2003@yahoo.com> While for me, I like cleaning up after people. I'm sorta inherently selfish...so when I have the opportunity to be domestic and helpful in
what I'm able to do (clean, organize, straighten), I'm pleased to do it. I
would hate feeling like a doormat, though.

I can't see the connection between being selfish and enjoying cleaning up
after other people. Oh yes I can its the people I would be cleaning up after
who I would consider the selfish ones. :)

Amy

"Ellie" <ellie_first@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4053B8A4.F0316E74@hotmail.com... I don't think it's showing disrespect, nor do I expect them to remember it ALL the time. But I think it's quite reasonable to expect them to be conscious about it and *try* to remember. <snip> I think it's unacceptable for them to simply say "well we can't bother remembering". This is a character flaw in my view.

One thing to remember (harharhar) (and I think this point could be made in
response to several of the posts, but I'm picking this one for no particular
reason) is that the automatic "aha" that makes you realize the light needs
turning off, the cabinet door needs closing, the toys need picking up, or
whatever, is truly automatic (and therefore easy) for some people, and not
automatic (and therefore difficult, requiring active cognitive effort) for
others. I say this as a person who lacks much of the "aha" reflex, as it
were.

So, with that in mind, the much lower levels of results you see from family
members may have little to do with the amount of "effort" they are putting
into these things (or lack of respect, or any of the other ways you might
interpret it). It's possible they are, in fact, trying as hard as you are,
but just seeing fewer results because they're not gifted in the area of
"habitual automatic remembering."

If I were to run at an all-out, 100%, puke-at-the-finish-line effort, I
might be able to do a mile in about 9 minutes. I know people who put in
about the same number of hours running each week as I do, and can do a 6-7
minute mile at the same level of effort. Now, if someone were to say that I
am slower right now because I put in "less effort," or not trying, because I
was lazy, or . . . they would not only be wrong, but it would also not do
much to encourage me to keep putting in the hours over the many years that
it requires to turn myself into someone who *could* run a 6 minute mile.
And even if I did keep training for many years until I had pretty much
maximized my personal ability, I would still be nowhere near the pace of
recordholders, because I don't have the natural aptitude for running that
they do.

DrLith wrote: "Ellie" <ellie_first@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:4053B8A4.F0316E74@hotmail.com... I don't think it's showing disrespect, nor do I expect them to remember it ALL the time. But I think it's quite reasonable to expect them to be conscious about it and *try* to remember. <snip> I think it's unacceptable for them to simply say "well we can't bother remembering". This is a character flaw in my view. One thing to remember (harharhar) (and I think this point could be made in response to several of the posts, but I'm picking this one for no particular reason) is that the automatic "aha" that makes you realize the light needs turning off, the cabinet door needs closing, the toys need picking up, or whatever, is truly automatic (and therefore easy) for some people, and not automatic (and therefore difficult, requiring active cognitive effort) for others. I say this as a person who lacks much of the "aha" reflex, as it were.

I am curious what you think about this, Kath. Is this genetic, or learned
behavior? (seriously)

"Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:N5q5c.104918$Wa.61116@news-server.bigpond.net.au... "Jennifer" <JenPam2003@yahoo.com> While for me, I like cleaning up after people. I'm sorta inherently selfish...so when I have the opportunity to be domestic and helpful in what I'm able to do (clean, organize, straighten), I'm pleased to do it. I would hate feeling like a doormat, though. I can't see the connection between being selfish and enjoying cleaning up after other people. Oh yes I can its the people I would be cleaning up
after who I would consider the selfish ones. :)

LOL, sorry, I mean I'm selfish in so many other arenas of my life...that I
feel good when I can be unselfish in a specific area (e.g., housecleaning).

Jennifer

"Jennifer" <JenPam2003@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:HfydnXkfne-R-svdRVn-vA@comcast.com... "Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:N5q5c.104918$Wa.61116@news-server.bigpond.net.au... "Jennifer" <JenPam2003@yahoo.com> While for me, I like cleaning up after people. I'm sorta inherently selfish...so when I have the opportunity to be domestic and helpful in what I'm able to do (clean, organize, straighten), I'm pleased to do it. I would hate feeling like a doormat, though. I can't see the connection between being selfish and enjoying cleaning
up after other people. Oh yes I can its the people I would be cleaning up after who I would consider the selfish ones. :) LOL, sorry, I mean I'm selfish in so many other arenas of my life...that I feel good when I can be unselfish in a specific area (e.g.,
housecleaning).

Ah that makes sense. And that is a good way of looking at it. Feeling good
about doing it because you've been fortunate in other areas. Excellent.
Caren where are you? This is something for you to think about too.

Amy

"Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:<1yu5c.105216$Wa.1309@news-server.bigpond.net.au>... "Jennifer" <JenPam2003@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:HfydnXkfne-R-svdRVn-vA@comcast.com... "Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:N5q5c.104918$Wa.61116@news-server.bigpond.net.au... "Jennifer" <JenPam2003@yahoo.com> > > While for me, I like cleaning up after people. I'm sorta inherently > selfish...so when I have the opportunity to be domestic and helpful in what > I'm able to do (clean, organize, straighten), I'm pleased to do it. I would > hate feeling like a doormat, though. I can't see the connection between being selfish and enjoying cleaning up after other people. Oh yes I can its the people I would be cleaning up after who I would consider the selfish ones. :) LOL, sorry, I mean I'm selfish in so many other arenas of my life...that I feel good when I can be unselfish in a specific area (e.g., housecleaning). Ah that makes sense. And that is a good way of looking at it. Feeling good about doing it because you've been fortunate in other areas. Excellent. Caren where are you? This is something for you to think about too. Amy

Here I am, I was cleaning the bathroom :-)

I am going to sit down and read this whole thread at some point. It
has always been an issue for me in this marriage. When I got my
masters degree 12 years ago, I suppose I thought that I'd be doing
less of the toilet stuff, you know?

I don't have the numbers nor the written word, but I do recall reading
a study fairly recently about marriages and working women. It stated
something to the effect that despite the fact that more women are in
the workplace, it is still the woman that does more housework. I'll
see if I can look this up. Lord I have a lot to do today.

"Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:<1yu5c.105216$Wa.1309@news-server.bigpond.net.au>... "Jennifer" <JenPam2003@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:HfydnXkfne-R-svdRVn-vA@comcast.com... "Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:N5q5c.104918$Wa.61116@news-server.bigpond.net.au... "Jennifer" <JenPam2003@yahoo.com> > > While for me, I like cleaning up after people. I'm sorta inherently > selfish...so when I have the opportunity to be domestic and helpful in what > I'm able to do (clean, organize, straighten), I'm pleased to do it. I would > hate feeling like a doormat, though. I can't see the connection between being selfish and enjoying cleaning up after other people. Oh yes I can its the people I would be cleaning up after who I would consider the selfish ones. :) LOL, sorry, I mean I'm selfish in so many other arenas of my life...that I feel good when I can be unselfish in a specific area (e.g., housecleaning). Ah that makes sense. And that is a good way of looking at it. Feeling good about doing it because you've been fortunate in other areas. Excellent. Caren where are you? This is something for you to think about too. Amy

Here I am, I was cleaning the bathroom :-)

I am going to sit down and read this whole thread at some point. It
has always been an issue for me in this marriage. When I got my
masters degree 12 years ago, I suppose I thought that I'd be doing
less of the toilet stuff, you know?

I don't have the numbers nor the written word, but I do recall reading
a study fairly recently about marriages and working women. It stated
something to the effect that despite the fact that more women are in
the workplace, it is still the woman that does more housework. I'll
see if I can look this up. Lord I have a lot to do today.

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0403170621.6b8f0043@posting.google.c om... I don't have the numbers nor the written word, but I do recall reading a study fairly recently about marriages and working women. It stated something to the effect that despite the fact that more women are in the workplace, it is still the woman that does more housework. I'll see if I can look this up. Lord I have a lot to do today.

I remember something like that, but the article I read was talking about
married couples with children. Before the children, they share the
housework more equally. After children, the woman tends to start doing
more.

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0403170621.6b8f0043@posting.google.c om... I don't have the numbers nor the written word, but I do recall reading a study fairly recently about marriages and working women. It stated something to the effect that despite the fact that more women are in the workplace, it is still the woman that does more housework. I'll see if I can look this up. Lord I have a lot to do today.

I remember something like that, but the article I read was talking about
married couples with children. Before the children, they share the
housework more equally. After children, the woman tends to start doing
more.

caren50@msn.com (Caren) writes:
"Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:<1yu5c.105216$Wa.1309@news-server.bigpond.net.au>... "Jennifer" <JenPam2003@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:HfydnXkfne-R-svdRVn-vA@comcast.com... "Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:N5q5c.104918$Wa.61116@news-server.bigpond.net.au... > > "Jennifer" <JenPam2003@yahoo.com> > > > > While for me, I like cleaning up after people. I'm sorta inherently > > selfish...so when I have the opportunity to be domestic and helpful in what > > I'm able to do (clean, organize, straighten), I'm pleased to do it. I would > > hate feeling like a doormat, though. > > I can't see the connection between being selfish and enjoying cleaning up > after other people. Oh yes I can its the people I would be cleaning up after > who I would consider the selfish ones. :) LOL, sorry, I mean I'm selfish in so many other arenas of my life...that I feel good when I can be unselfish in a specific area (e.g., housecleaning). Ah that makes sense. And that is a good way of looking at it. Feeling good about doing it because you've been fortunate in other areas. Excellent. Caren where are you? This is something for you to think about too. Amy Here I am, I was cleaning the bathroom :-) I am going to sit down and read this whole thread at some point. It has always been an issue for me in this marriage. When I got my masters degree 12 years ago, I suppose I thought that I'd be doing less of the toilet stuff, you know? I don't have the numbers nor the written word, but I do recall reading a study fairly recently about marriages and working women. It stated something to the effect that despite the fact that more women are in the workplace, it is still the woman that does more housework. I'll see if I can look this up. Lord I have a lot to do today.

I haven't seen this study, but here is an observation based on the
couples I know.

For most of them, both parents work. For most of them chores are
shared. _But_ (for most of them) the household chores (cleaning,
cooking, laundry) and the chores associated with children (taking them
to school, soccer practice, making dentist's appointments, etc.) which
haven't been explicitly divided up fall to the mother.

In other words, the father does do quite a bit of the work, but the
responsibility for seeing that things get done, and the responsibility
for all the irregular stuff stays with the mother.

caren50@msn.com (Caren) writes:
"Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:<1yu5c.105216$Wa.1309@news-server.bigpond.net.au>... "Jennifer" <JenPam2003@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:HfydnXkfne-R-svdRVn-vA@comcast.com... "Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:N5q5c.104918$Wa.61116@news-server.bigpond.net.au... > > "Jennifer" <JenPam2003@yahoo.com> > > > > While for me, I like cleaning up after people. I'm sorta inherently > > selfish...so when I have the opportunity to be domestic and helpful in what > > I'm able to do (clean, organize, straighten), I'm pleased to do it. I would > > hate feeling like a doormat, though. > > I can't see the connection between being selfish and enjoying cleaning up > after other people. Oh yes I can its the people I would be cleaning up after > who I would consider the selfish ones. :) LOL, sorry, I mean I'm selfish in so many other arenas of my life...that I feel good when I can be unselfish in a specific area (e.g., housecleaning). Ah that makes sense. And that is a good way of looking at it. Feeling good about doing it because you've been fortunate in other areas. Excellent. Caren where are you? This is something for you to think about too. Amy Here I am, I was cleaning the bathroom :-) I am going to sit down and read this whole thread at some point. It has always been an issue for me in this marriage. When I got my masters degree 12 years ago, I suppose I thought that I'd be doing less of the toilet stuff, you know? I don't have the numbers nor the written word, but I do recall reading a study fairly recently about marriages and working women. It stated something to the effect that despite the fact that more women are in the workplace, it is still the woman that does more housework. I'll see if I can look this up. Lord I have a lot to do today.

I haven't seen this study, but here is an observation based on the
couples I know.

For most of them, both parents work. For most of them chores are
shared. _But_ (for most of them) the household chores (cleaning,
cooking, laundry) and the chores associated with children (taking them
to school, soccer practice, making dentist's appointments, etc.) which
haven't been explicitly divided up fall to the mother.

In other words, the father does do quite a bit of the work, but the
responsibility for seeing that things get done, and the responsibility
for all the irregular stuff stays with the mother.

"Doug Anderson" wrote in message
I haven't seen this study, but here is an observation based on the couples I know. For most of them, both parents work. For most of them chores are shared. _But_ (for most of them) the household chores (cleaning, cooking, laundry) and the chores associated with children (taking them to school, soccer practice, making dentist's appointments, etc.) which haven't been explicitly divided up fall to the mother.

I know I handle most if not all of the organizational work; i.e., I plan
most chore charts, calendars, appointments, etc. The men in my group of
friends are famous for saying, "Don't ask me, call and ask (my wife)!!" :-)
It's true, too. If my DH does make an agreement with someone to tell me
something or arrange an outing, he invariably forgets to tell me. It does
seem that most of the wives I know handle the organization of daily life,
but whether that's a function of innate ability or some arrangement between
them and their spouses, I have no idea.

But I have this strange situation where, really, both DH and I are at home
parents. Neither one of us has the responsibility to be anywhere outside
the house, with the rare exception when DH has a meeting. The business is
established to the point where, after 18 years and employees to do the
outside work, DH can sleep or handle kids or chores during the day, if he
chooses. I'm guilty of calling him from the bedroom sometimes when I'm
taking an afternoon nap and asking him to pleeeeeeeeease pick up the kids in
carline...and he usually says yes. :-) Then he might want me to run into
the office during another part of the day for me to look over a contract,
and I'll do that, even if it's 4 a.m.

But back to chores associated with children--DH is the one who typically
"does" doctor's appointments. I'll usually schedule them, but DH usually
takes the kids in. When DD5 needed a 3-hour dental appointment, complete
with full root canal and silver crown (GULP), that was DH's time with her!!

I think there are two reasons why DH and I so easily split child care
responsibilities. First, our first child was his biological child, and my
stepchild. So he obviously did most of the work, and it was my choice for
many years as to how much time I wanted to expend caring for her. I chose
to do half the work with her, but that was my option. Second, our second
and third children were twins, so there were always two babies...thus we
naturally each had one child to care for. By the time our last child came
along, we were so used to doing everything evenly, it was a breeze!!

Oh, plus, I get damned awful PPD, so DH knew that my very survival was on
his shoulders in those early months...but that's another story altogether.

Jennifer

"Doug Anderson" wrote in message
I haven't seen this study, but here is an observation based on the couples I know. For most of them, both parents work. For most of them chores are shared. _But_ (for most of them) the household chores (cleaning, cooking, laundry) and the chores associated with children (taking them to school, soccer practice, making dentist's appointments, etc.) which haven't been explicitly divided up fall to the mother.

I know I handle most if not all of the organizational work; i.e., I plan
most chore charts, calendars, appointments, etc. The men in my group of
friends are famous for saying, "Don't ask me, call and ask (my wife)!!" :-)
It's true, too. If my DH does make an agreement with someone to tell me
something or arrange an outing, he invariably forgets to tell me. It does
seem that most of the wives I know handle the organization of daily life,
but whether that's a function of innate ability or some arrangement between
them and their spouses, I have no idea.

But I have this strange situation where, really, both DH and I are at home
parents. Neither one of us has the responsibility to be anywhere outside
the house, with the rare exception when DH has a meeting. The business is
established to the point where, after 18 years and employees to do the
outside work, DH can sleep or handle kids or chores during the day, if he
chooses. I'm guilty of calling him from the bedroom sometimes when I'm
taking an afternoon nap and asking him to pleeeeeeeeease pick up the kids in
carline...and he usually says yes. :-) Then he might want me to run into
the office during another part of the day for me to look over a contract,
and I'll do that, even if it's 4 a.m.

But back to chores associated with children--DH is the one who typically
"does" doctor's appointments. I'll usually schedule them, but DH usually
takes the kids in. When DD5 needed a 3-hour dental appointment, complete
with full root canal and silver crown (GULP), that was DH's time with her!!

I think there are two reasons why DH and I so easily split child care
responsibilities. First, our first child was his biological child, and my
stepchild. So he obviously did most of the work, and it was my choice for
many years as to how much time I wanted to expend caring for her. I chose
to do half the work with her, but that was my option. Second, our second
and third children were twins, so there were always two babies...thus we
naturally each had one child to care for. By the time our last child came
along, we were so used to doing everything evenly, it was a breeze!!

Oh, plus, I get damned awful PPD, so DH knew that my very survival was on
his shoulders in those early months...but that's another story altogether.

Jennifer

"Jennifer" <JenPam2003@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<Ae6dnVNTyZ6yhsTdRVn-tw@comcast.com>... "Doug Anderson" wrote in message I haven't seen this study, but here is an observation based on the couples I know. For most of them, both parents work. For most of them chores are shared. _But_ (for most of them) the household chores (cleaning, cooking, laundry) and the chores associated with children (taking them to school, soccer practice, making dentist's appointments, etc.) which haven't been explicitly divided up fall to the mother. I know I handle most if not all of the organizational work; i.e., I plan most chore charts, calendars, appointments, etc. The men in my group of friends are famous for saying, "Don't ask me, call and ask (my wife)!!" :-) It's true, too. If my DH does make an agreement with someone to tell me something or arrange an outing, he invariably forgets to tell me. It does seem that most of the wives I know handle the organization of daily life, but whether that's a function of innate ability or some arrangement between them and their spouses, I have no idea. But I have this strange situation where, really, both DH and I are at home parents. Neither one of us has the responsibility to be anywhere outside the house, with the rare exception when DH has a meeting. The business is established to the point where, after 18 years and employees to do the outside work, DH can sleep or handle kids or chores during the day, if he chooses. I'm guilty of calling him from the bedroom sometimes when I'm taking an afternoon nap and asking him to pleeeeeeeeease pick up the kids in carline...and he usually says yes. :-) Then he might want me to run into the office during another part of the day for me to look over a contract, and I'll do that, even if it's 4 a.m. But back to chores associated with children--DH is the one who typically "does" doctor's appointments. I'll usually schedule them, but DH usually takes the kids in. When DD5 needed a 3-hour dental appointment, complete with full root canal and silver crown (GULP), that was DH's time with her!! I think there are two reasons why DH and I so easily split child care responsibilities. First, our first child was his biological child, and my stepchild. So he obviously did most of the work, and it was my choice for many years as to how much time I wanted to expend caring for her. I chose to do half the work with her, but that was my option. Second, our second and third children were twins, so there were always two babies...thus we naturally each had one child to care for. By the time our last child came along, we were so used to doing everything evenly, it was a breeze!! Oh, plus, I get damned awful PPD, so DH knew that my very survival was on his shoulders in those early months...but that's another story altogether. Jennifer

You're also both home, which makes a world of difference! How lucky you are :-)

"Jennifer" <JenPam2003@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<Ae6dnVNTyZ6yhsTdRVn-tw@comcast.com>... "Doug Anderson" wrote in message I haven't seen this study, but here is an observation based on the couples I know. For most of them, both parents work. For most of them chores are shared. _But_ (for most of them) the household chores (cleaning, cooking, laundry) and the chores associated with children (taking them to school, soccer practice, making dentist's appointments, etc.) which haven't been explicitly divided up fall to the mother. I know I handle most if not all of the organizational work; i.e., I plan most chore charts, calendars, appointments, etc. The men in my group of friends are famous for saying, "Don't ask me, call and ask (my wife)!!" :-) It's true, too. If my DH does make an agreement with someone to tell me something or arrange an outing, he invariably forgets to tell me. It does seem that most of the wives I know handle the organization of daily life, but whether that's a function of innate ability or some arrangement between them and their spouses, I have no idea. But I have this strange situation where, really, both DH and I are at home parents. Neither one of us has the responsibility to be anywhere outside the house, with the rare exception when DH has a meeting. The business is established to the point where, after 18 years and employees to do the outside work, DH can sleep or handle kids or chores during the day, if he chooses. I'm guilty of calling him from the bedroom sometimes when I'm taking an afternoon nap and asking him to pleeeeeeeeease pick up the kids in carline...and he usually says yes. :-) Then he might want me to run into the office during another part of the day for me to look over a contract, and I'll do that, even if it's 4 a.m. But back to chores associated with children--DH is the one who typically "does" doctor's appointments. I'll usually schedule them, but DH usually takes the kids in. When DD5 needed a 3-hour dental appointment, complete with full root canal and silver crown (GULP), that was DH's time with her!! I think there are two reasons why DH and I so easily split child care responsibilities. First, our first child was his biological child, and my stepchild. So he obviously did most of the work, and it was my choice for many years as to how much time I wanted to expend caring for her. I chose to do half the work with her, but that was my option. Second, our second and third children were twins, so there were always two babies...thus we naturally each had one child to care for. By the time our last child came along, we were so used to doing everything evenly, it was a breeze!! Oh, plus, I get damned awful PPD, so DH knew that my very survival was on his shoulders in those early months...but that's another story altogether. Jennifer

You're also both home, which makes a world of difference! How lucky you are :-)

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in
I don't have the numbers nor the written word, but I do recall reading a study fairly recently about marriages and working women. It stated something to the effect that despite the fact that more women are in the workplace, it is still the woman that does more housework. I'll see if I can look this up. Lord I have a lot to do today.

This is one of the reasons why I am happy to be a SAHM. Why would I want to
take on *another* job if I have trouble keeping on top of the one I already
have? It seems to be becoming a trend that mothers take on part time jobs
instead of full time jobs like their husbands. The reason is obvious to me.
:)

Amy

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in
I don't have the numbers nor the written word, but I do recall reading a study fairly recently about marriages and working women. It stated something to the effect that despite the fact that more women are in the workplace, it is still the woman that does more housework. I'll see if I can look this up. Lord I have a lot to do today.

This is one of the reasons why I am happy to be a SAHM. Why would I want to
take on *another* job if I have trouble keeping on top of the one I already
have? It seems to be becoming a trend that mothers take on part time jobs
instead of full time jobs like their husbands. The reason is obvious to me.
:)

Amy

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com>
You're also both home, which makes a world of difference! How lucky you
are :-)

Yeah, I am lucky, and I know it & appreciate it every day!! Seriously,
though, there's no way I would have had kids if the situation had been much
different. I couldn't have been a good at-home parent if I were the only
one home, lol.

Jennifer

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com>
You're also both home, which makes a world of difference! How lucky you
are :-)

Yeah, I am lucky, and I know it & appreciate it every day!! Seriously,
though, there's no way I would have had kids if the situation had been much
different. I couldn't have been a good at-home parent if I were the only
one home, lol.

Jennifer