My husband has lately for the last year or so has begun to hang out with his
friends alot. Too much for my liking. 4x a week give or take. Our house has
become a smoke free home because of our 2 year old daughter. He is also
involved with a service club and he is in charge of fundraising. That keeps
him busy, now the problem. If he has a meeting, he'll tell me he'll be home
by 7. Some nights he calls and says that "everyone" is going over to his
friends house for a few beers.He goes there because he can sit and watch TV
smoke andplay cards.
Here's the problem. Last night he told me he was going over to his friends
house like normal. He'll be home probably after 10. . At 11:00 I try his
cell phone ...no answer...so I try his friends house....no answer! When he
does finally show upat 12:30 his friend is dropping him off. I now know he
is lying, because if he was there he would have taken a cab home and his
buddy wouldn't have given him a ride home. I ask him where he was, he says
at Doug's. In the morning I ask again where he was and his tells me the
same. I get home from work, and call him on his lie, then he tells me they
were at some other woman's house that they have just started hanging around.
I'm really hurt that he would lie. Now I naturally assume the worst, but
have no proof of an actual affair.I'm so mad and hurt, I don't know what to
do.
My question, how am I supposed to believe anything he says. I"ll believe in
you 100%, screw me and that's the end. I would never ever think about lying
to him about anything or anyone I'm hanging around, so why would he?
I know some of you have had this kind of experience, what did you do??
Sorry about the long windedness of this post.

"Ang" <nospam@nospam.ca> wrote in message
news:gUw1c.6984$jw2.441513@news20.bellglobal.com.. . My husband has lately for the last year or so has begun to hang out with
his friends alot. Too much for my liking. 4x a week give or take. Our house
has become a smoke free home because of our 2 year old daughter. He is also involved with a service club and he is in charge of fundraising. That
keeps him busy, now the problem. If he has a meeting, he'll tell me he'll be
home by 7. Some nights he calls and says that "everyone" is going over to his friends house for a few beers.He goes there because he can sit and watch
TV smoke andplay cards. Here's the problem. Last night he told me he was going over to his friends house like normal. He'll be home probably after 10. . At 11:00 I try his cell phone ...no answer...so I try his friends house....no answer! When he does finally show upat 12:30 his friend is dropping him off. I now know he is lying, because if he was there he would have taken a cab home and his buddy wouldn't have given him a ride home. I ask him where he was, he says at Doug's. In the morning I ask again where he was and his tells me the same. I get home from work, and call him on his lie, then he tells me they were at some other woman's house that they have just started hanging
around. I'm really hurt that he would lie. Now I naturally assume the worst, but have no proof of an actual affair.I'm so mad and hurt, I don't know what
to do. My question, how am I supposed to believe anything he says. I"ll believe
in you 100%, screw me and that's the end. I would never ever think about
lying to him about anything or anyone I'm hanging around, so why would he? I know some of you have had this kind of experience, what did you do?? Sorry about the long windedness of this post.

can you find out why he feels the need to be away from home so much?

I mean, it's obvious he doesn't want to be there. This may or may not be
something you have control over. But find out why.

JWB

Maybe it is an "innocent lie".. he probably didn't think you would
understand him hanging out at another woman's house..

Not saying it is right for him to lie.. OR for him to be at another woman's
house...

I dont think its a "deal Breaker".. but definite changes are needed.

Kass


"Ang" <nospam@nospam.ca> wrote in message
news:gUw1c.6984$jw2.441513@news20.bellglobal.com.. . My husband has lately for the last year or so has begun to hang out with
his friends alot. Too much for my liking. 4x a week give or take. Our house
has become a smoke free home because of our 2 year old daughter. He is also involved with a service club and he is in charge of fundraising. That
keeps him busy, now the problem. If he has a meeting, he'll tell me he'll be
home by 7. Some nights he calls and says that "everyone" is going over to his friends house for a few beers.He goes there because he can sit and watch
TV smoke andplay cards. Here's the problem. Last night he told me he was going over to his friends house like normal. He'll be home probably after 10. . At 11:00 I try his cell phone ...no answer...so I try his friends house....no answer! When he does finally show upat 12:30 his friend is dropping him off. I now know he is lying, because if he was there he would have taken a cab home and his buddy wouldn't have given him a ride home. I ask him where he was, he says at Doug's. In the morning I ask again where he was and his tells me the same. I get home from work, and call him on his lie, then he tells me they were at some other woman's house that they have just started hanging
around. I'm really hurt that he would lie. Now I naturally assume the worst, but have no proof of an actual affair.I'm so mad and hurt, I don't know what
to do. My question, how am I supposed to believe anything he says. I"ll believe
in you 100%, screw me and that's the end. I would never ever think about
lying to him about anything or anyone I'm hanging around, so why would he? I know some of you have had this kind of experience, what did you do?? Sorry about the long windedness of this post.

Well, I don't know exactly what to tell you. The only thing I can say
is, if he lied to you, and shows no sign of remorse, he'll do it again.
You HAVE to sit and talk w/ him somehow. My husband has lied to me
countless times and I have found a way to get past it, and now we're
trying to go to marriage counseling.

You need to tell him that his going out and staying out that late is a
total disregaurd for your feelings, and you 2 year old's. You and your
child need him there as much as possible. If my husband went out and
stayed out that late, then I really wouldnt be married because that
would be too much for me.

Is there a reason why he doesnt want to be home? Does he really want to
be married? Why did he feel that he couldnt tell you the truth? These
are some good questions that you can ask. I am very sorry that he lied
to you, and trust me, I knnow exactly how you feel. My husband had to go
to Iraq to realize how he was being (lying constantly) was wrong. Before
he got the orders, we were on the brink of a divorce, but I wasnt gonna
leave him while he was at war, so I stuck around. We're still having
problems and i am hoping they work out. I am hoping yours works out
too.

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 21:55:31 -0500, "Ang" <nospam@nospam.ca> wrote:
My husband has lately for the last year or so has begun to hang out with hisfriends alot. Too much for my liking. 4x a week give or take. Our house hasbecome a smoke free home because of our 2 year old daughter. He is alsoinvolved with a service club and he is in charge of fundraising. That keepshim busy, now the problem. If he has a meeting, he'll tell me he'll be homeby 7. Some nights he calls and says that "everyone" is going over to hisfriends house for a few beers.He goes there because he can sit and watch TVsmoke andplay cards.Here's the problem. Last night he told me he was going over to his friendshouse like normal. He'll be home probably after 10. . At 11:00 I try hiscell phone ...no answer...so I try his friends house....no answer! When hedoes finally show upat 12:30 his friend is dropping him off. I now know heis lying, because if he was there he would have taken a cab home and hisbuddy wouldn't have given him a ride home. I ask him where he was, he saysat Doug's. In the morning I ask again where he was and his tells me thesame. I get home from work, and call him on his lie, then he tells me theywere at some other woman's house that they have just started hanging around.I'm really hurt that he would lie. Now I naturally assume the worst, buthave no proof of an actual affair.I'm so mad and hurt, I don't know what todo.My question, how am I supposed to believe anything he says. I"ll believe inyou 100%, screw me and that's the end. I would never ever think about lyingto him about anything or anyone I'm hanging around, so why would he?I know some of you have had this kind of experience, what did you do??Sorry about the long windedness of this post.
Buy him a cell phone with a GPS. Kidding. I suggest you trust your
instincts. My husband also smokes but not in the house. One doesn't
have to go to a friend home to smoke. Going out 4X a week without you
is an indication that something is a miss.

"Ang" <nospam@nospam.ca> wrote in message
news:gUw1c.6984$jw2.441513@news20.bellglobal.com.. . My husband has lately for the last year or so has begun to hang out with
his friends alot. Too much for my liking. 4x a week give or take. Our house
has become a smoke free home because of our 2 year old daughter.

You're kidding right Ang? You won't "allow" your husband to smoke in his
own home, which he works hard to pay for and you wonder why he doesn't want
to be there? Not to mention the fact that most two year olds need to be
duct taped and Nyquiled into a coma to even stand being around.

My suggestion to you would be to try being a little more fun to be around
and stop making rude and inconsiderate demands on your husbands behavior in
his OWN HOME. Maybe, just maybe then he will actually WANT to spend a
little time there instead of anyplace else.

SD

"Shashay Doofray" <shashay@yahoo.com> writes:
"Ang" <nospam@nospam.ca> wrote in message news:gUw1c.6984$jw2.441513@news20.bellglobal.com.. . My husband has lately for the last year or so has begun to hang out with his friends alot. Too much for my liking. 4x a week give or take. Our house has become a smoke free home because of our 2 year old daughter. You're kidding right Ang? You won't "allow" your husband to smoke in his own home, which he works hard to pay for and you wonder why he doesn't want to be there? Not to mention the fact that most two year olds need to be duct taped and Nyquiled into a coma to even stand being around.

Where to start Shashay, and is it even worth it?

1) has she said that her husband supports the family financially and
not her? That may be true, but I don't think she has told us that.

2) if her husband is an at all responsible guy, _he_ won't smoke at
home because he doesn't want to expose the rest of his family to
the second-hand smoke health hazard. Why are you assuming that is
Ang's decision?

3) Most two year olds that I know are great fun.

"Ang" <nospam@nospam.ca> writes:
My husband has lately for the last year or so has begun to hang out with his friends alot. Too much for my liking. 4x a week give or take. Our house has become a smoke free home because of our 2 year old daughter. He is also involved with a service club and he is in charge of fundraising. That keeps him busy, now the problem. If he has a meeting, he'll tell me he'll be home by 7. Some nights he calls and says that "everyone" is going over to his friends house for a few beers.He goes there because he can sit and watch TV smoke andplay cards. Here's the problem. Last night he told me he was going over to his friends house like normal. He'll be home probably after 10. . At 11:00 I try his cell phone ...no answer...so I try his friends house....no answer! When he does finally show upat 12:30 his friend is dropping him off. I now know he is lying, because if he was there he would have taken a cab home and his buddy wouldn't have given him a ride home. I ask him where he was, he says at Doug's.

(I swear - he wasn't here.)
In the morning I ask again where he was and his tells me the same. I get home from work, and call him on his lie, then he tells me they were at some other woman's house that they have just started hanging around. I'm really hurt that he would lie. Now I naturally assume the worst, but have no proof of an actual affair.I'm so mad and hurt, I don't know what to do. My question, how am I supposed to believe anything he says. I"ll believe in you 100%, screw me and that's the end. I would never ever think about lying to him about anything or anyone I'm hanging around, so why would he? I know some of you have had this kind of experience, what did you do?? Sorry about the long windedness of this post.

There are at least three issues here. One is his dishonesty, which is
inexcusable, and which he should be apologizing abjectly for. But I
don't know what you do about the fact that he isn't, except tell him
how hurt you are by his lying.

It is hard to tell from your story if there is anything going on with
this woman, but I'd ask him to spend no more time with her even in
groups; at least until time has restored some of your trust. And then
of course, to be honest about it.


Another is that it sounds like you want to spend more time together.

This _is_ something you can do something about. Tell him you want to
do this, and make some regular plans to do things that you'll both
enjoy together. This may mean hiring a babysitter once a week.


A third is it sounds like you both work, and then you take care of
your daughter in the evenings. So he has evenings free to spend with
his friends and you do not.

So make a schedule. Maybe it involves two nights out for him, two
nights out for you, one night with a babysitter, and two nights with
all three of you at home. Or something.


An overall problem seems to be that neither of you are getting what
you want out of your marriage. Unless the two of you can find a way
to do better on that, you're likely to be in for a rough time.

"Shashay Doofray" <shashay@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<bfA1c.4263$E33.1570@fe21>... "Ang" <nospam@nospam.ca> wrote in message news:gUw1c.6984$jw2.441513@news20.bellglobal.com.. . My husband has lately for the last year or so has begun to hang out with his friends alot. Too much for my liking. 4x a week give or take. Our house has become a smoke free home because of our 2 year old daughter. You're kidding right Ang? You won't "allow" your husband to smoke in his own home, which he works hard to pay for and you wonder why he doesn't want to be there? Not to mention the fact that most two year olds need to be duct taped and Nyquiled into a coma to even stand being around. My suggestion to you would be to try being a little more fun to be around and stop making rude and inconsiderate demands on your husbands behavior in his OWN HOME. Maybe, just maybe then he will actually WANT to spend a little time there instead of anyplace else. SD


Come on SD, is Durago that bad??? If you're old enough to make
babies, surely you can understand that certain responsibilities come
with that and one of those is that a child is not growing up with
second hand smoke. Not to mention the role modeling that is present
when a parent smokes. As far as most two year olds needing to be duct
tapes, it sounds to me as if you have just seen too many kids that are
out of control. Personally, I'm not sure that kids get any cuter than
those young ages. They are a total crack up in their innocence and
ability to talk.

I have no clue as to whether this OP is not fun at home, I surely
don't think that her desire to have a smoke free house is not rude or
inconsiderate. Don't you and your husband ask things of each other?
Granted you don't have children so there are no health risks to an
innocent bystander but don't each of you have quirks or things that
you like and dislike?

Men and women have different styles, there's no getting around that.
Of course we have our stereotypical male and female type of thinking
and of course not all of us fall into that stereotyping. In my house
we do. My husband could not care less about cleanliness or how the
house looks. I care very much about both. If I weren't on him, our
house would look like a dump and he knows that. Yes, it's his home
too, but I still have the right to ask him to put his stuff away, I
have the right to expect things of him in our home. Just as he has
the right to expect things of me in his garden :-)

Don't you think you're being a tad hard on the OP? My suggestion to
her is what other posters have said. Get to the root of it and go for
counseling. Also, how long have you two been together? I have found
that it really takes several years for families to get into a groove
once a child has been born. It almost sounds to me as if parenting is
not first on this man's mind. Having fun seems to be. I see nothing
wrong with going out with your friends, but if that takes presedence
over the marriage, then something is up. Lying...well,kids learn that
if they lie they won't get in trouble. Some people never grow up and
continue lying.

Carrie <gandc_aries@webtv.net> wrote:
--WebTV-Mail-32075-990 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit

Carrie, how about turning of the HTML?

caren50@msn.com (Caren) wrote in message news:<3754f0b3.0403040628.462f6a63@posting.google.com>... "Shashay Doofray" <shashay@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<bfA1c.4263$E33.1570@fe21>... "Ang" <nospam@nospam.ca> wrote in message news:gUw1c.6984$jw2.441513@news20.bellglobal.com.. . My husband has lately for the last year or so has begun to hang out with his friends alot. Too much for my liking. 4x a week give or take. Our house has become a smoke free home because of our 2 year old daughter. You're kidding right Ang? You won't "allow" your husband to smoke in his own home, which he works hard to pay for and you wonder why he doesn't want to be there? Not to mention the fact that most two year olds need to be duct taped and Nyquiled into a coma to even stand being around. My suggestion to you would be to try being a little more fun to be around and stop making rude and inconsiderate demands on your husbands behavior in his OWN HOME. Maybe, just maybe then he will actually WANT to spend a little time there instead of anyplace else. SD Come on SD, is Durago that bad??? If you're old enough to make babies, surely you can understand that certain responsibilities come with that and one of those is that a child is not growing up with second hand smoke. Not to mention the role modeling that is present when a parent smokes. As far as most two year olds needing to be duct tapes, it sounds to me as if you have just seen too many kids that are out of control. Personally, I'm not sure that kids get any cuter than those young ages. They are a total crack up in their innocence and ability to talk. I have no clue as to whether this OP is not fun at home, I surely don't think that her desire to have a smoke free house is not rude or inconsiderate. Don't you and your husband ask things of each other? Granted you don't have children so there are no health risks to an innocent bystander but don't each of you have quirks or things that you like and dislike? Men and women have different styles, there's no getting around that. Of course we have our stereotypical male and female type of thinking and of course not all of us fall into that stereotyping. In my house we do. My husband could not care less about cleanliness or how the house looks. I care very much about both. If I weren't on him, our house would look like a dump and he knows that. Yes, it's his home too, but I still have the right to ask him to put his stuff away, I have the right to expect things of him in our home. Just as he has the right to expect things of me in his garden :-) Don't you think you're being a tad hard on the OP? My suggestion to her is what other posters have said. Get to the root of it and go for counseling. Also, how long have you two been together? I have found that it really takes several years for families to get into a groove once a child has been born. It almost sounds to me as if parenting is not first on this man's mind. Having fun seems to be. I see nothing wrong with going out with your friends, but if that takes presedence over the marriage, then something is up. Lying...well,kids learn that if they lie they won't get in trouble. Some people never grow up and continue lying.

This is scary Doug- not only were you and I typing at the same time,
but we virtually typed the same thing. You were 2 minutes ahead of me
though :-)

caren50@msn.com (Caren) writes:
caren50@msn.com (Caren) wrote in message news:<3754f0b3.0403040628.462f6a63@posting.google.com>... "Shashay Doofray" <shashay@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<bfA1c.4263$E33.1570@fe21>... "Ang" <nospam@nospam.ca> wrote in message news:gUw1c.6984$jw2.441513@news20.bellglobal.com.. . > My husband has lately for the last year or so has begun to hang out with his > friends alot. Too much for my liking. 4x a week give or take. Our house has > become a smoke free home because of our 2 year old daughter. You're kidding right Ang? You won't "allow" your husband to smoke in his own home, which he works hard to pay for and you wonder why he doesn't want to be there? Not to mention the fact that most two year olds need to be duct taped and Nyquiled into a coma to even stand being around. My suggestion to you would be to try being a little more fun to be around and stop making rude and inconsiderate demands on your husbands behavior in his OWN HOME. Maybe, just maybe then he will actually WANT to spend a little time there instead of anyplace else. SD Come on SD, is Durago that bad??? If you're old enough to make babies, surely you can understand that certain responsibilities come with that and one of those is that a child is not growing up with second hand smoke. Not to mention the role modeling that is present when a parent smokes. As far as most two year olds needing to be duct tapes, it sounds to me as if you have just seen too many kids that are out of control. Personally, I'm not sure that kids get any cuter than those young ages. They are a total crack up in their innocence and ability to talk. I have no clue as to whether this OP is not fun at home, I surely don't think that her desire to have a smoke free house is not rude or inconsiderate. Don't you and your husband ask things of each other? Granted you don't have children so there are no health risks to an innocent bystander but don't each of you have quirks or things that you like and dislike? Men and women have different styles, there's no getting around that. Of course we have our stereotypical male and female type of thinking and of course not all of us fall into that stereotyping. In my house we do. My husband could not care less about cleanliness or how the house looks. I care very much about both. If I weren't on him, our house would look like a dump and he knows that. Yes, it's his home too, but I still have the right to ask him to put his stuff away, I have the right to expect things of him in our home. Just as he has the right to expect things of me in his garden :-) Don't you think you're being a tad hard on the OP? My suggestion to her is what other posters have said. Get to the root of it and go for counseling. Also, how long have you two been together? I have found that it really takes several years for families to get into a groove once a child has been born. It almost sounds to me as if parenting is not first on this man's mind. Having fun seems to be. I see nothing wrong with going out with your friends, but if that takes presedence over the marriage, then something is up. Lying...well,kids learn that if they lie they won't get in trouble. Some people never grow up and continue lying. This is scary Doug- not only were you and I typing at the same time, but we virtually typed the same thing. You were 2 minutes ahead of me though :-)

Well, I thought Shashay's scold deserved a response! Especially as it
made assumptions that were not in the original post (and that in at
least one detail were wrong - both people in that couple earn money, so it
isn't the case that he brings home the money, and she has the rest of
the responsiblities. In fact it seems like they both earn money but
she has the rest of the responsibilities, which seems quite unfair!).

"Ang" <nospam@nospam.ca> wrote in message news:<gUw1c.6984$jw2.441513@news20.bellglobal.com>... My husband has lately for the last year or so has begun to hang out with his friends alot. Too much for my liking. 4x a week give or take. Our house has become a smoke free home because of our 2 year old daughter. He is also involved with a service club and he is in charge of fundraising. That keeps him busy, now the problem. If he has a meeting, he'll tell me he'll be home by 7. Some nights he calls and says that "everyone" is going over to his friends house for a few beers.He goes there because he can sit and watch TV smoke andplay cards. Here's the problem. Last night he told me he was going over to his friends house like normal. He'll be home probably after 10. . At 11:00 I try his cell phone ...no answer...so I try his friends house....no answer! When he does finally show upat 12:30 his friend is dropping him off. I now know he is lying, because if he was there he would have taken a cab home and his buddy wouldn't have given him a ride home. I ask him where he was, he says at Doug's. In the morning I ask again where he was and his tells me the same. I get home from work, and call him on his lie, then he tells me they were at some other woman's house that they have just started hanging around. I'm really hurt that he would lie. Now I naturally assume the worst, but have no proof of an actual affair.I'm so mad and hurt, I don't know what to do. My question, how am I supposed to believe anything he says. I"ll believe in you 100%, screw me and that's the end. I would never ever think about lying to him about anything or anyone I'm hanging around, so why would he? I know some of you have had this kind of experience, what did you do?? Sorry about the long windedness of this post.

The lying is bad; I won't say it isn't. Nor is it excusable. However,
I caution you against allowing your anger about his lying to obfuscate
the *real* issues. Those are:

- You want him to spend more time at home
- You want him to be more involved with the childcare
- You want him to spend more quality time with you
- I'm guessing you wouldn't mind your own break every now and then...
a chance to go out with the girls, go shopping, to the healthclub?
- His smoking is an issue to you


He knows these are all issues with you... and he deliberately avoids
these issues by going out with his friends. He wants to avoid these
issues bad enough that he will resort to lying to you.

It's a clever tactic, if you think about it. I was just reading a book
about dealing with adolescents and it discussed how teens use this
same tactic when they're caught doing something they know is wrong.
For example, breaking curfew. The book discusses how parents shoot
themselves in the foot if they start screaming, ranting, raving, and
doling out punishments when the teen slinks home after curfew. This
gives the teen all sorts of convenient excuses to avoid addressing
their own culpability - "Mom doesn't understand me!! Mom is too
strict!! Everyone else gets to stay out late!! It's not my fault -
she's the unreasonable one!! And besides, who could blame me for not
wanting to be at home? It's more pleasant with my friends!!!"

Yep, I'm sorry to say that your hubby is acting like a rebellious
teenager, and forcing you into the parent role. I'm sure that's not
what you want, and I'm betting he doesn't want that, either.

So the question is, how do you improve the situation? You do so by
treating him like the adult & partner he is supposed to be, and you
set your own boundaries to be treated likewise like the adult &
partner you are. If you don't fall into the parent role with him,
hopefully over time he will stop finding the need to play the
rebellious teen.

Specifically:

1) Regarding the smoking. I hear what you're saying and understand
where you're coming from, but he is an adult and you need to respect
he can make his own decisions (as stupid as they may be). Strive to
learn how to "agree to disagree" on this issue. Strike a loving
compromise for now: no smoking in the house or around your daughter,
but out on the back porch okay. Refrain from giving him dirty looks
when he smokes. Take the pressure off of him to stop smoking for you
and your daughter, and it may be easier for him to quit because he
wants to - not because you want him to.

2) Sit down and have a family meeting with him. Explain that you are
feeling overwhelmed with the childcare duties. Show him a list of
duties that must be done each night and ask him which ones he could
help you out on? Don't tell him what he should do - allow him to offer
help. Approach him to help you problem solve this - men love to
problem solve. :-)

3) Explain that you are feeling disconnected with him lately, and ask
him to problem solve with you ways you could carve out some quality
couple time. Get a sitter? Commit to spending an hour together each
night after baby is in bed? Etc.


Next time you catch him in a lie or coming home too late, it is enough
to simply give him a disappointed look (which, please note, is
different than a "disapproving" look - disapproving=parent;
disappointed=spouse) and without raising your voice, remind him of his
promise, "I waited up for you because you said you'd be home by 11;
next time, please call if you won't be home by 11, because I do
worry." Or "I kept baby up, figuring you would want to kiss her
goodnight, but when you weren't home by 8 I tucked her in... she
missed her daddy." Or "I called your friend's house but you weren't
there; next time, please let me know where you'll be at, because I
worry when I can't reach you."

Do you see how this is better than catching him in a lie or
confronting him? Do you see how it defuses his ability to make you the
bad guy, the overbearing, too strict parent? How his rebellious teen
act gets no further fuel?

In fact, if he does start to make excuses for his actions, simply put
your hand up to stop him and say, "I'm tired, let's go to bed" and
give him a kiss and a hug. Then the next day when you're refreshed,
hopefully you'll get an apology from him. If not, you start the
discussion in a more productive manner:

"I am concerned we don't seem to have a lot of couple time these days,
since we're both so busy. I was pretty tired last night, but I wanted
to wait up for you so I could hear about your day and kiss you
goodnight. I miss you! However, when 10:30 rolled around I could
barely keep my eyes open... then when 11:00 rolled around, I started
getting worried about you, thinking maybe you'd had an accident? So I
called your friends' house, but you weren't there so I didn't know
what to think."

<insert his lame excuses here>

"I see. I am glad you had fun at your friend's house. But hopefully
you can see things from my perspective? That I worry when you're not
where you say you will be? What would happen if baby had an emergency
and I couldn't reach you? And also that I wait up for you; it would've
been nice to know you were going to be in later than 10, because I
would've gone straight to bed. I could've used the sleep <laugh>!
Hmmm... so how do you think we could prevent this from happening in
the future?"

<insert his promise to call you in the future if he's going to be
later than he originally planned, or if he goes somewhere different
than originally planned>

Then open the conversation to the deeper issues:

"I feel we are drifting apart, and would like to find more time for
us. How do you think we could solve that together?"

jen

Snip Ang's OP.

shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) writes:
1) Regarding the smoking. I hear what you're saying and understand where you're coming from, but he is an adult and you need to respect he can make his own decisions (as stupid as they may be). Strive to learn how to "agree to disagree" on this issue. Strike a loving compromise for now: no smoking in the house or around your daughter, but out on the back porch okay. Refrain from giving him dirty looks when he smokes. Take the pressure off of him to stop smoking for you and your daughter, and it may be easier for him to quit because he wants to - not because you want him to. 2) Sit down and have a family meeting with him. Explain that you are feeling overwhelmed with the childcare duties. Show him a list of duties that must be done each night and ask him which ones he could help you out on? Don't tell him what he should do - allow him to offer help. Approach him to help you problem solve this - men love to problem solve. :-) 3) Explain that you are feeling disconnected with him lately, and ask him to problem solve with you ways you could carve out some quality couple time. Get a sitter? Commit to spending an hour together each night after baby is in bed? Etc. Next time you catch him in a lie or coming home too late, it is enough to simply give him a disappointed look (which, please note, is different than a "disapproving" look - disapproving=parent; disappointed=spouse) and without raising your voice, remind him of his promise, "I waited up for you because you said you'd be home by 11; next time, please call if you won't be home by 11, because I do worry." Or "I kept baby up, figuring you would want to kiss her goodnight, but when you weren't home by 8 I tucked her in... she missed her daddy." Or "I called your friend's house but you weren't there; next time, please let me know where you'll be at, because I worry when I can't reach you." Do you see how this is better than catching him in a lie or confronting him? Do you see how it defuses his ability to make you the bad guy, the overbearing, too strict parent? How his rebellious teen act gets no further fuel? In fact, if he does start to make excuses for his actions, simply put your hand up to stop him and say, "I'm tired, let's go to bed" and give him a kiss and a hug. Then the next day when you're refreshed, hopefully you'll get an apology from him. If not, you start the discussion in a more productive manner: "I am concerned we don't seem to have a lot of couple time these days, since we're both so busy. I was pretty tired last night, but I wanted to wait up for you so I could hear about your day and kiss you goodnight. I miss you! However, when 10:30 rolled around I could barely keep my eyes open... then when 11:00 rolled around, I started getting worried about you, thinking maybe you'd had an accident? So I called your friends' house, but you weren't there so I didn't know what to think." <insert his lame excuses here> "I see. I am glad you had fun at your friend's house. But hopefully you can see things from my perspective? That I worry when you're not where you say you will be? What would happen if baby had an emergency and I couldn't reach you? And also that I wait up for you; it would've been nice to know you were going to be in later than 10, because I would've gone straight to bed. I could've used the sleep <laugh>! Hmmm... so how do you think we could prevent this from happening in the future?" <insert his promise to call you in the future if he's going to be later than he originally planned, or if he goes somewhere different than originally planned> Then open the conversation to the deeper issues: "I feel we are drifting apart, and would like to find more time for us. How do you think we could solve that together?"

Hey, these are good suggestions. They might not work, but they seem
like better things to try than any of the alternatives.

"Ang" <nospam@nospam.ca> wrote in message news:<gUw1c.6984$jw2.441513@news20.bellglobal.com>... My husband has lately for the last year or so has begun to hang out with his friends alot. Too much for my liking. 4x a week give or take. Our house has become a smoke free home because of our 2 year old daughter. He is also involved with a service club and he is in charge of fundraising. That keeps him busy, now the problem. If he has a meeting, he'll tell me he'll be home by 7. Some nights he calls and says that "everyone" is going over to his friends house for a few beers.He goes there because he can sit and watch TV smoke andplay cards. Here's the problem. Last night he told me he was going over to his friends house like normal. He'll be home probably after 10. . At 11:00 I try his cell phone ...no answer...so I try his friends house....no answer! When he does finally show upat 12:30 his friend is dropping him off. I now know he is lying, because if he was there he would have taken a cab home and his buddy wouldn't have given him a ride home. I ask him where he was, he says at Doug's. In the morning I ask again where he was and his tells me the same. I get home from work, and call him on his lie, then he tells me they were at some other woman's house that they have just started hanging around. I'm really hurt that he would lie. Now I naturally assume the worst, but have no proof of an actual affair.I'm so mad and hurt, I don't know what to do. My question, how am I supposed to believe anything he says. I"ll believe in you 100%, screw me and that's the end. I would never ever think about lying to him about anything or anyone I'm hanging around, so why would he? I know some of you have had this kind of experience, what did you do?? Sorry about the long windedness of this post.


Just on the surface I would say it "sounds" like an innocent lie. Most
likely because he suspects you would be suspicious of him hanging out
at another woman's home. I could very well be wrong BUT I doubt if an
affair was really going on that he would have admitted being at her
house even if you asked him 50 times. I would think it wouldn't be
that difficult to have an excuse why the friend dropped him off. The
fact he admitted it relatively quickly leads me to think there is no
affair but like I said I could be wrong. Obviously something is wrong
if he's spending that much time away from home. I could understand if
he had to work late but it sounds like these are voluntary things he's
doing. Then again you mentioned he was a smoker. Personally I don't
smoke but I have known many smokers who literally act like it's life
and death if they don't get a chance to smoke a pack a day somewhere
so maybe his desire to have somewhere to smoke (hanging out with the
guys) is all there is to it???

> Come on SD, is Durago that bad??? If you're old enough to make babies, surely you can understand that certain responsibilities come with that and one of those is that a child is not growing up with second hand smoke. Not to mention the role modeling that is present when a parent smokes. As far as most two year olds needing to be duct tapes, it sounds to me as if you have just seen too many kids that are out of control. Personally, I'm not sure that kids get any cuter than those young ages. They are a total crack up in their innocence and ability to talk.

I disagree with you. I believe in a marriage that the husband should always
come first. When you marry you make a vow to your husband, NOT to your
children. It is the wife's responsibility to cater to the needs (and wants)
of her husband. Children need to be "worked around" the needs of the
marriage. If second hand smoke is bad for the children, then the children
need to be in another room away from it, if the mother is worried about
health issues. You don't tell the husband what to do - you tell the
children what to do. That is why so many marriages fail. The children
become more important than the husband.

As for my personal situation. Yes there are thing which I prefer and which
my husband prefers. Luckily, my husband is very perceptive and genuinely
caring and loving so he picks up on them. Otherwise, I would never dream of
saying "do this" or "do that". (Although I might, occasionally ask in a
very nice way). My philosphy is ... "If it bugs you to have a mess then
it's YOUR problem and you clean it up, otherwise live with it"...

My husband used to smoke. Even though the smoke made my nose plug up, my
eyes run and made everything smell absolutely disgusting. I never so much as
said a word against it ever, because it wasn't MY decision to make. It was
his house and I respected that he was a mature adult able to make his own
decisions. After he quit I was happy, but I never made his life miserable
while he was doing it.

I think the OP must have made her husband's life just miserable enough that
he wants to be away from her as much as possible. What other explanation
would there be?

SD

"Shashay Doofray" <shashay@yahoo.com> writes:
Come on SD, is Durago that bad??? If you're old enough to make babies, surely you can understand that certain responsibilities come with that and one of those is that a child is not growing up with second hand smoke. Not to mention the role modeling that is present when a parent smokes. As far as most two year olds needing to be duct tapes, it sounds to me as if you have just seen too many kids that are out of control. Personally, I'm not sure that kids get any cuter than those young ages. They are a total crack up in their innocence and ability to talk. I disagree with you. I believe in a marriage that the husband should always come first. When you marry you make a vow to your husband, NOT to your children. It is the wife's responsibility to cater to the needs (and wants) of her husband.

Just remind me; you have no kids, right?

It is certainly true that couples should find ways to continue to pay
attention to each other regardless of kids. It is also certainly true
that kids affect the dynamics of doing things.

Also it is no more the wife's responsibility to cater to the needs or
wants of her husband than it is the other way around.
Children need to be "worked around" the needs of the marriage. If second hand smoke is bad for the children, then the children need to be in another room away from it, if the mother is worried about health issues. You don't tell the husband what to do - you tell the children what to do. That is why so many marriages fail. The children become more important than the husband.

I don't think this is why most marriages fail. I think most marriages
fail because either the partners were not well suited to each other in
the first place, or because neither are interested in doing the
necessary work to meet the needs of the other.
As for my personal situation. Yes there are thing which I prefer and which my husband prefers. Luckily, my husband is very perceptive and genuinely caring and loving so he picks up on them. Otherwise, I would never dream of saying "do this" or "do that". (Although I might, occasionally ask in a very nice way). My philosphy is ... "If it bugs you to have a mess then it's YOUR problem and you clean it up, otherwise live with it"... My husband used to smoke. Even though the smoke made my nose plug up, my eyes run and made everything smell absolutely disgusting. I never so much as said a word against it ever, because it wasn't MY decision to make. It was his house and I respected that he was a mature adult able to make his own decisions. After he quit I was happy, but I never made his life miserable while he was doing it. I think the OP must have made her husband's life just miserable enough that he wants to be away from her as much as possible. What other explanation would there be?

There could be lots of other explanations.

Shashay Doofray wrote: Come on SD, is Durago that bad??? If you're old enough to make babies, surely you can understand that certain responsibilities come with that and one of those is that a child is not growing up with second hand smoke. Not to mention the role modeling that is present when a parent smokes. As far as most two year olds needing to be duct tapes, it sounds to me as if you have just seen too many kids that are out of control. Personally, I'm not sure that kids get any cuter than those young ages. They are a total crack up in their innocence and ability to talk. I disagree with you. I believe in a marriage that the husband should always come first.

Sigh.... Why couldn't I have met a woman like this? (just teasin, Shashay,
or...)

On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 18:23:26 -0600, Shashay Doofray wrote:

Come on SD, is Durago that bad??? If you're old enough to make babies, surely you can understand that certain responsibilities come with that and one of those is that a child is not growing up with second hand smoke. Not to mention the role modeling that is present when a parent smokes. As far as most two year olds needing to be duct tapes, it sounds to me as if you have just seen too many kids that are out of control. Personally, I'm not sure that kids get any cuter than those young ages. They are a total crack up in their innocence and ability to talk. I disagree with you. I believe in a marriage that the husband should always come first. When you marry you make a vow to your husband, NOT to your children. It is the wife's responsibility to cater to the needs (and wants) of her husband. Children need to be "worked around" the needs of the marriage. If second hand smoke is bad for the children, then the children need to be in another room away from it, if the mother is worried about health issues. You don't tell the husband what to do - you tell the children what to do. That is why so many marriages fail. The children become more important than the husband. As for my personal situation. Yes there are thing which I prefer and which my husband prefers. Luckily, my husband is very perceptive and genuinely caring and loving so he picks up on them. Otherwise, I would never dream of saying "do this" or "do that". (Although I might, occasionally ask in a very nice way). My philosphy is ... "If it bugs you to have a mess then it's YOUR problem and you clean it up, otherwise live with it"... My husband used to smoke. Even though the smoke made my nose plug up, my eyes run and made everything smell absolutely disgusting. I never so much as said a word against it ever, because it wasn't MY decision to make. It was his house and I respected that he was a mature adult able to make his own decisions. After he quit I was happy, but I never made his life miserable while he was doing it. I think the OP must have made her husband's life just miserable enough that he wants to be away from her as much as possible. What other explanation would there be? SD

That is a very traditional view of what being a Wife is all about, and one
I generally agree with... Good for you!

I'm sure you are going to get a lot of slack from less traditional Women,
but I doubt you'll hear too many negatives from the Men :)

Diana

"Dr. Di" <dianakd@comcast.net> writes:
On Thu, 04 Mar 2004 18:23:26 -0600, Shashay Doofray wrote: Come on SD, is Durago that bad??? If you're old enough to make babies, surely you can understand that certain responsibilities come with that and one of those is that a child is not growing up with second hand smoke. Not to mention the role modeling that is present when a parent smokes. As far as most two year olds needing to be duct tapes, it sounds to me as if you have just seen too many kids that are out of control. Personally, I'm not sure that kids get any cuter than those young ages. They are a total crack up in their innocence and ability to talk. I disagree with you. I believe in a marriage that the husband should always come first. When you marry you make a vow to your husband, NOT to your children. It is the wife's responsibility to cater to the needs (and wants) of her husband. Children need to be "worked around" the needs of the marriage. If second hand smoke is bad for the children, then the children need to be in another room away from it, if the mother is worried about health issues. You don't tell the husband what to do - you tell the children what to do. That is why so many marriages fail. The children become more important than the husband. As for my personal situation. Yes there are thing which I prefer and which my husband prefers. Luckily, my husband is very perceptive and genuinely caring and loving so he picks up on them. Otherwise, I would never dream of saying "do this" or "do that". (Although I might, occasionally ask in a very nice way). My philosphy is ... "If it bugs you to have a mess then it's YOUR problem and you clean it up, otherwise live with it"... My husband used to smoke. Even though the smoke made my nose plug up, my eyes run and made everything smell absolutely disgusting. I never so much as said a word against it ever, because it wasn't MY decision to make. It was his house and I respected that he was a mature adult able to make his own decisions. After he quit I was happy, but I never made his life miserable while he was doing it. I think the OP must have made her husband's life just miserable enough that he wants to be away from her as much as possible. What other explanation would there be? SD That is a very traditional view of what being a Wife is all about, and one I generally agree with... Good for you! I'm sure you are going to get a lot of slack from less traditional Women, but I doubt you'll hear too many negatives from the Men :)

Well, here's one. That was never the sort of wife I was looking for.
Of course if SD and Mr SD have what they want, more power to 'em. But
it isn't what everyone wants, nor is it what everyone _should_ want.

> That is a very traditional view of what being a Wife is all about, and one I generally agree with... Good for you! I'm sure you are going to get a lot of slack from less traditional Women, but I doubt you'll hear too many negatives from the Men :) Diana

Thanks Diana,

I am a very traditional wife, and I do get a lot of flack for it, as it is
not fashionable these days to sacrifice for the happiness of your husband or
your marriage. Oh, I listen to these new age males tell me that they
wouldn't WANT a submissive, caring, nurturing wife, but I think down deep
inside they are fooling themselves.


SD

People only lie when they are afraid of telling the truth. You must ask
yourself why your husband is afraid of telling you the truth about your
relationship.

SD

I think very few people sacrifice all that much these days. And it seems to
get worse in each succeeding generation. Compared to the WW II and
Depression Era set, we're spoiled. Of course, few will actually have the
humility to admit this, but it is true. (And I think most of us know it, deep
down inside. (Just go talk - and really LISTEN, to your grandmas and
grandads)

Shashay Doofray wrote: That is a very traditional view of what being a Wife is all about, and one I generally agree with... Good for you! I'm sure you are going to get a lot of slack from less traditional Women, but I doubt you'll hear too many negatives from the Men :) Diana Thanks Diana, I am a very traditional wife, and I do get a lot of flack for it, as it is not fashionable these days to sacrifice for the happiness of your husband or your marriage. Oh, I listen to these new age males tell me that they wouldn't WANT a submissive, caring, nurturing wife, but I think down deep inside they are fooling themselves. SD

"Bill in Co." <surly_curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:9kU1c.19848$yZ1.15161@newsread2.news.pas.eart hlink.net... I think very few people sacrifice all that much these days. And it seems
to get worse in each succeeding generation. Compared to the WW II and Depression Era set, we're spoiled. Of course, few will actually have the humility to admit this, but it is true. (And I think most of us know it,
deep down inside. (Just go talk - and really LISTEN, to your grandmas and grandads)

Recently Bill, I was on a RiverBarge Excursion down the Intercoastal
Waterway from Corpus Christi to Port Isabel, and on this cruise there was
primarily a lot of really OLD people (I would say the average age was about
70). It really is fascinating to talk with older people and to try and
imagine what their world was like when they were young - and how much it has
changed.

The problem is, I think, that the Media has convinced us that with
improvements in medicine, and technology and communications and
transportation that somehow the world is a better place to be than it was 50
or 60 years ago. This philosophy has been spoon fed to us. You read it in
every text book in every school from here to China. And maybe, in some
ways, it is a better world. Thanks to pennicillin, not so many people die
from infections and such.... But overall, in the grand scheme of things,
when you think about how the world has REALLY changed. How people relate to
eachother, how families relate to eachother, the degree that life is truly
MEANINGFUL, I don't think the world has gotten any better at all.

You're right. If you listen to real people who have "been there", you learn
about things that are important. Trouble is, not many people listen.

SD

"Shashay Doofray" <shashay@yahoo.com> writes:
"Bill in Co." <surly_curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:9kU1c.19848$yZ1.15161@newsread2.news.pas.eart hlink.net... I think very few people sacrifice all that much these days. And it seems to get worse in each succeeding generation. Compared to the WW II and Depression Era set, we're spoiled. Of course, few will actually have the humility to admit this, but it is true. (And I think most of us know it, deep down inside. (Just go talk - and really LISTEN, to your grandmas and grandads) Recently Bill, I was on a RiverBarge Excursion down the Intercoastal Waterway from Corpus Christi to Port Isabel, and on this cruise there was primarily a lot of really OLD people (I would say the average age was about 70). It really is fascinating to talk with older people and to try and imagine what their world was like when they were young - and how much it has changed. The problem is, I think, that the Media has convinced us that with improvements in medicine, and technology and communications and transportation that somehow the world is a better place to be than it was 50 or 60 years ago. This philosophy has been spoon fed to us. You read it in every text book in every school from here to China. And maybe, in some ways, it is a better world. Thanks to pennicillin, not so many people die from infections and such.... But overall, in the grand scheme of things, when you think about how the world has REALLY changed. How people relate to eachother, how families relate to eachother, the degree that life is truly MEANINGFUL, I don't think the world has gotten any better at all. You're right. If you listen to real people who have "been there", you learn about things that are important. Trouble is, not many people listen.


-Them days we were glad to have the price of a cup of tea.

-Ay! A cup of cold tea!

-Without milk or sugar!

-Or tea!

-In a cracked cup and all.

-Oh, we never used to have a cup! We used to have to drink out of a
rolled-up newspaper!

-The best we could manage was to suck on a piece of damp cloth.

-But you know, we were happy in those days, although we were poor.

-Because we were poor!

....

-Right! I had to get up in the morning, at ten o'clock at night, half
an hour before I went to bed, eat a lump of cold poison, work
twenty-nine hours a day down at the mill and pay the mill owner for
permission to come to work, and when we got home, our dad would kill
us and dance about on our graves, singing Hallelujah!

-Oh, ay. And you try and tell the young people of today that, and they
won't believe you!

You might want to re-read my posts on the other thread you opened. The ones
you considered over the top... because "oh, my hubby wouldn never do this".
When a man hangs out the house a lot, sooner or later a woman is bound to
turn up into the picture.
Unfortunately the wife seldom wants to even consider this to be the case...
not until it is too late.

Sioban

"Ang" <nospam@nospam.ca> wrote in message
news:gUw1c.6984$jw2.441513@news20.bellglobal.com.. .
<snip> I get home from work, and call him on his lie, then he tells me they were at some other woman's house that they have just started hanging
around. I'm really hurt that he would lie. Now I naturally assume the worst, but have no proof of an actual affair.I'm so mad and hurt, I don't know what
to do. My question, how am I supposed to believe anything he says. I"ll believe
in you 100%, screw me and that's the end. I would never ever think about
lying to him about anything or anyone I'm hanging around, so why would he? I know some of you have had this kind of experience, what did you do?? Sorry about the long windedness of this post.

"Dakota Monroe" <dakota_mon@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d8b15372.0403041511.729098fb@posting.google.c om...
<snip>
I could very well be wrong BUT I doubt if an affair was really going on that he would have admitted being at her house even if you asked him 50 times. I would think it wouldn't be that difficult to have an excuse why the friend dropped him off. The fact he admitted it relatively quickly leads me to think there is no affair but like I said I could be wrong.


Yes you could be. When I first asked mine about it, he openly talked to me
about her, how she was a good friend and how they shared a weird sence of
humor.
Then I found out that some of their "jokes" consisted in sending each other
"I wanna f*** you" messages.
Some people involved in an emotional (or otherwise) affair, don´t realize
that what they are doing is improper, because as far as their values and
morals are concerned, what their are doing is "ok" and they really can´t
understand what "you are fussing about".

Sioban

sounds like a monty python skit.

pretty funny.

sd

"Shashay Doofray" <shashay@yahoo.com> writes:
sounds like a monty python skit.

Yeah, sorry. But Tsam started it!

"Shashay Doofray" <shashay@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<dSV1c.2143$9c3.1408@fe21>... "Bill in Co." <surly_curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:9kU1c.19848$yZ1.15161@newsread2.news.pas.eart hlink.net... I think very few people sacrifice all that much these days. And it seems to get worse in each succeeding generation. Compared to the WW II and Depression Era set, we're spoiled. Of course, few will actually have the humility to admit this, but it is true. (And I think most of us know it, deep down inside. (Just go talk - and really LISTEN, to your grandmas and grandads) Recently Bill, I was on a RiverBarge Excursion down the Intercoastal Waterway from Corpus Christi to Port Isabel, and on this cruise there was primarily a lot of really OLD people (I would say the average age was about 70). It really is fascinating to talk with older people and to try and imagine what their world was like when they were young - and how much it has changed. The problem is, I think, that the Media has convinced us that with improvements in medicine, and technology and communications and transportation that somehow the world is a better place to be than it was 50 or 60 years ago. This philosophy has been spoon fed to us. You read it in every text book in every school from here to China. And maybe, in some ways, it is a better world. Thanks to pennicillin, not so many people die from infections and such.... But overall, in the grand scheme of things, when you think about how the world has REALLY changed. How people relate to eachother, how families relate to eachother, the degree that life is truly MEANINGFUL, I don't think the world has gotten any better at all. You're right. If you listen to real people who have "been there", you learn about things that are important. Trouble is, not many people listen. SD

My theory is that with good, comes bad. And vice verse. You can be
spoon fed any message and you can listen or ignore anything that media
feeds you. Plenty of things about the "grand old days" were
wonderful. Primarily the simplicity of it. However, today there are
advances and advantages-nothing is perfect. With the technological
advances, some people benefit. Some people do not.

But it's important to honor what we have today and not live in the
past. For those that pine for those old days-they are typing away on
a keyboard with stereo speakers sitting in front of them at the same
time wishing that it were the old days. I think that if you truly want
the old days, it is possible to live in the woods, get rid of the
technology purchases and live the life you long for. Plenty of people
do it-one does not have to get caught up in the trappings.

Me? I love the advances and sometimes wonder how I raised a son
without having a cell phone. I wonder how I got through grad school
and wrote at least 20 papers without a computer. And so on and so
forth. I love the internet-when my daughter comes home and wants to
know the answer to something that I don't know. It's awesome. Do you
know that I diagnosed a circulatory disorder on the internet while 2
of my doctors were stymied by my symptoms? I brought the internet
info to a third doctor and he was shocked that I figured it out. It
took me weeks but I was determined. Have you ever heard of
chillblains? I hadn't either and I have it :-)

Anyhow, my point is that no situation is perfect. One door closes and
another door opens. Our life span is longer- which of course doesn't
mean that the quality of life is necessarily better. Fewer women die
in childbirth. Fewer babies die at birth. But, crime is rampant.
Mental illness seems to be out of control. But new meds have been
discovered, many people benefit from them. Yet many of the newer
drugs have horrid side effects. And on and on and on.

It seems to easy to sit back and wish for what isn't and during the
time that one is wishing, one is missing what "is". That is sadder
than anything in my opinion.

nachtigal wrote: You might want to re-read my posts on the other thread you opened. The ones you considered over the top... because "oh, my hubby wouldn never do this". When a man hangs out the house a lot, sooner or later a woman is bound to turn up into the picture. Unfortunately the wife seldom wants to even consider this to be the case... not until it is too late.

Yah, but don't be too hard on her. Denial isn't something that we do
to ourselves just because we can. It's a protective measure used so
that we don't have to face something that we can't right at that
moment (at least in these situations it is.)

Tracey

caren50@msn.com (Caren) writes:
"Shashay Doofray" <shashay@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<dSV1c.2143$9c3.1408@fe21>... "Bill in Co." <surly_curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:9kU1c.19848$yZ1.15161@newsread2.news.pas.eart hlink.net... I think very few people sacrifice all that much these days. And it seems to get worse in each succeeding generation. Compared to the WW II and Depression Era set, we're spoiled. Of course, few will actually have the humility to admit this, but it is true. (And I think most of us know it, deep down inside. (Just go talk - and really LISTEN, to your grandmas and grandads) Recently Bill, I was on a RiverBarge Excursion down the Intercoastal Waterway from Corpus Christi to Port Isabel, and on this cruise there was primarily a lot of really OLD people (I would say the average age was about 70). It really is fascinating to talk with older people and to try and imagine what their world was like when they were young - and how much it has changed. The problem is, I think, that the Media has convinced us that with improvements in medicine, and technology and communications and transportation that somehow the world is a better place to be than it was 50 or 60 years ago. This philosophy has been spoon fed to us. You read it in every text book in every school from here to China. And maybe, in some ways, it is a better world. Thanks to pennicillin, not so many people die from infections and such.... But overall, in the grand scheme of things, when you think about how the world has REALLY changed. How people relate to eachother, how families relate to eachother, the degree that life is truly MEANINGFUL, I don't think the world has gotten any better at all. You're right. If you listen to real people who have "been there", you learn about things that are important. Trouble is, not many people listen. SD My theory is that with good, comes bad. And vice verse. You can be spoon fed any message and you can listen or ignore anything that media feeds you. Plenty of things about the "grand old days" were wonderful. Primarily the simplicity of it. However, today there are advances and advantages-nothing is perfect. With the technological advances, some people benefit. Some people do not. But it's important to honor what we have today and not live in the past. For those that pine for those old days-they are typing away on a keyboard with stereo speakers sitting in front of them at the same time wishing that it were the old days. I think that if you truly want the old days, it is possible to live in the woods, get rid of the technology purchases and live the life you long for. Plenty of people do it-one does not have to get caught up in the trappings. Me? I love the advances and sometimes wonder how I raised a son without having a cell phone. I wonder how I got through grad school and wrote at least 20 papers without a computer. And so on and so forth. I love the internet-when my daughter comes home and wants to know the answer to something that I don't know. It's awesome. Do you know that I diagnosed a circulatory disorder on the internet while 2 of my doctors were stymied by my symptoms? I brought the internet info to a third doctor and he was shocked that I figured it out. It took me weeks but I was determined. Have you ever heard of chillblains? I hadn't either and I have it :-)

But in the good old days, your attentive avuncular house-call making
family doctor would have recognized chillblains in an instant!

(Of course that might be because they used to be much more common in
days of poorer nutrition before central heat!)
Anyhow, my point is that no situation is perfect. One door closes and another door opens. Our life span is longer- which of course doesn't mean that the quality of life is necessarily better. Fewer women die in childbirth. Fewer babies die at birth. But, crime is rampant.

Actually, it isn't clear that crime is any worse, and many kinds of
crime have been going down in recent years. What _is_ clear is that
the local TV news spends a disproportionate amount of time covering
crime. When I make the depressing mistake of watching the local news
I discover it consists of sports, weather, local crime stories,
today's automobile fatality, 1 or 2 fluff pieces which aren't news at
all, and, maybe, one shallowly reported local political piece.
(Through all of this the anchors maintain their smiles. It makes me
think they can't actually understand the words they are reading!)
Mental illness seems to be out of control. But new meds have been discovered, many people benefit from them. Yet many of the newer drugs have horrid side effects. And on and on and on. It seems to easy to sit back and wish for what isn't and during the time that one is wishing, one is missing what "is". That is sadder than anything in my opinion.

I think so too. But beyond this, people have always idealized the
past, and that is what it is: idealization. People look back at what
they think was better, and forget about the things that are better
now.

Of course the past is interesting. I love my wife's grandfather's
stories about how they managed to drink during prohibition. Of course
he came from an upper-middle class family; if he'd been poor, he could
easily have been paralyzed with "Jake walk" as a result of
prohibition. Somehow his stories make it all sound fun and amusing,
but neither the surrounding organized crime, nor the poisons that were
sold as alcoholic drink were actually a good thing.

Yes you are right, Tracey. I´m sorry that I was so bitter Ang. It´s just
that I too went through the denial phase and I´m still angry
about it. (warped or what?)

Sioban

"Tracey" <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote in message
news:4048AB40.8070200@aol.com... nachtigal wrote: You might want to re-read my posts on the other thread you opened. The
ones you considered over the top... because "oh, my hubby wouldn never do
this". When a man hangs out the house a lot, sooner or later a woman is bound
to turn up into the picture. Unfortunately the wife seldom wants to even consider this to be the
case... not until it is too late. Yah, but don't be too hard on her. Denial isn't something that we do to ourselves just because we can. It's a protective measure used so that we don't have to face something that we can't right at that moment (at least in these situations it is.) Tracey

Nope - not warped, just feeling. Part and parcel of the grief process.

nachtigal wrote: Yes you are right, Tracey. I´m sorry that I was so bitter Ang. It´s just that I too went through the denial phase and I´m still angry about it. (warped or what?) Sioban "Tracey" <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote in message news:4048AB40.8070200@aol.com... nachtigal wrote: You might want to re-read my posts on the other thread you opened. The ones you considered over the top... because "oh, my hubby wouldn never do this". When a man hangs out the house a lot, sooner or later a woman is bound to turn up into the picture. Unfortunately the wife seldom wants to even consider this to be the case... not until it is too late. Yah, but don't be too hard on her. Denial isn't something that we do to ourselves just because we can. It's a protective measure used so that we don't have to face something that we can't right at that moment (at least in these situations it is.) Tracey

Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<q8brnce3l8.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu>...
Hey, these are good suggestions. They might not work, but they seem like better things to try than any of the alternatives.

Thanks, Doug. :-)

Sure, they might not work. But I can provide proof that they *can*
work, because they worked for us.

It's funny how I seemed to have totally forgotten about this chapter
in our early relationship until I started responding to the OP on this
subject!! The following anecdote might just be one of the reasons my
DF said that he knew I'd never put up with this sort of behavior, even
if he tried...

Early in our relationship, at the stage when we weren't officially
living together (but were doing just that for all conceivable purposes
on the weeks the kids weren't with us), my DF made it a routine to go
out with the "boys" at least once a week. Mostly it was one co-worker
friend of his who'd instigate the boys' night out. Essentially they'd
go on a bar crawl. They prided themselves on knowing each and every
bar in the city. No big deal... he works and studies hard all week,
plus I didn't mind a night to myself.

However, he started getting into this habit of saying he'd be home by
a certain time, then not calling or showing up until really late
(sometimes 3 AM - after the bars closed and enough time to pedal home
on his bike). He didn't have his own key at that stage, so I'd have to
wake up, roll out of bed, and let him in. He'd apologize profusely and
be drunk as a skunk.

I still didn't mind his going out, but I *did* mind being woken up in
the middle of the night on a weeknight. I also minded if he said he'd
be home and I'd wait up, and wait up, and then start worrying he'd
gotten into an accident on the way home, or was locked up in some
drunk tank, or got mugged, etc.

When I broached the subject that I'd appreciate a call if he was going
to be out past the time he originally promised, he got very defensive
and jumped all over me. Don't you trust me? You're just like my
ex-wife... yaddah yaddah...

The thing I learned from him is that he often made excuses in his
first marriage not to come home. And she'd treat him like a parent
scolding a teen who abused curfew. He'd play the "woe is me" game, and
had a good excuse (he had a grueling career and she was a SAHM; he'd
complain she didn't understand his work hours and/or his need to blow
off steam and have fun some nights; and besides, when he did come home
they'd just argue).

When he explained all this, I found I could really relate to his wife!
My exh also worked long hours and avoided being at home. I hated being
left at home alone to handle the kids and home responsibilities. I'd
act towards my exh just like DF's wife acted towards him... I'd pout
and disapprove and guilt... None of that was very effective.

So I told DF in no uncertain terms that I refused to be pushed into
the parent role (I already have two children, thank you!) and had no
intentions of repeating the same pattern of our past relationships.
It's really hard not to fall into that trap when someone is pushing
your buttons to do exactly that!! I refused to play his game and harp
on his broken promises; instead, I started to handle his late night
homecomings precisely how I advised the OP.

In short order he gave it up and started being considerate to me. He'd
call and let me know if he was going to be late. It didn't take long
before he started coming home at a decent hour, too. And then shortly
after that, he stopped going out with his buddy at all. They quickly
drifted apart, the guy eventually got a different job, and now they
speak rarely.

DF still goes out on occasion with his classmates or other friends,
but normally he *****es and moans when he feels socially obligated to
do so. These days, he'd much rather go out with me. Most often he begs
me to come along with him to these outings. Sometimes I go, other
times I pass because I'd prefer a night to myself. Always, he calls
and comes home when he says he will.

jen

nachtigal wrote: Yes you are right, Tracey. I´m sorry that I was so bitter Ang. It´s just that I too went through the denial phase and I´m still angry about it. (warped or what?)

Not warped, understandable because you feel like you were duped, neh?
What helped me get over the anger was realizing that I was doing
*exactly* what I, a person who trusted their husband, should have
been doing and that was believing in him.

Tracey

"nachtigal" <nachtigal@mail2hell.com> wrote in message news:<c29ch4$71j$07$1@news.t-online.com>... You might want to re-read my posts on the other thread you opened. The ones you considered over the top... because "oh, my hubby wouldn never do this". When a man hangs out the house a lot, sooner or later a woman is bound to turn up into the picture. Unfortunately the wife seldom wants to even consider this to be the case... not until it is too late.


I think she should consider that her marriage is on the rocks, but I
don't necessarily agree that looking for infedility is going to be all
that productive towards fixing her marriage, if that's what she wants.
Since they have young kids together, I'm assuming she has ample reason
for wanting to fix her marriage.

If she spends all her time obsessing about the possibility he's
cheating, looking for proof that he's cheating, accusing him of
cheating... well, if he's not cheating now..... she's more likely to
drive him right into the arms of some willing woman. Don't you think?
Because harping on that is not going to make a dent in the other
issues in her marriage, which is suffering greatly. Instead, it's just
going to fuel his reasons for seeking a relationship outside his
marriage.

Sure, her husband could turn out to be a total louse anyway. Still,
it's not going to hurt the OP to learn a better approach. At the very
least she'll be able to say in all confidence that she did everything
in her power to save the marriage. Not to mention it'll be great
practice for when her child grows up and becomes a rebellious teen.
:-)

jen

shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) writes:
"nachtigal" <nachtigal@mail2hell.com> wrote in message news:<c29ch4$71j$07$1@news.t-online.com>... You might want to re-read my posts on the other thread you opened. The ones you considered over the top... because "oh, my hubby wouldn never do this". When a man hangs out the house a lot, sooner or later a woman is bound to turn up into the picture. Unfortunately the wife seldom wants to even consider this to be the case... not until it is too late. I think she should consider that her marriage is on the rocks, but I don't necessarily agree that looking for infedility is going to be all that productive towards fixing her marriage, if that's what she wants. Since they have young kids together, I'm assuming she has ample reason for wanting to fix her marriage.

I agree. Based on her post, my guess is that her husband isn't
cheating (right now), but to focus on whether or not he is cheating
misses the point.

It sound like neither of them are getting much out of the marriage at
the moment, and that is the big problem.

Dr. Di <dianakd@comcast.net> wrote:
That is a very traditional view of what being a Wife is all about, and one I generally agree with... Good for you! I'm sure you are going to get a lot of slack from less traditional Women, but I doubt you'll hear too many negatives from the Men :)


I suspect you mean "flack" and not slack, but I don't think many women
who are happy with their own marriages are going to harass other women
for having different kinds of happy marriages. To each their own.

Caren <caren50@msn.com> wrote:
My theory is that with good, comes bad. And vice verse. You can be spoon fed any message and you can listen or ignore anything that media feeds you. Plenty of things about the "grand old days" were wonderful. Primarily the simplicity of it. However, today there are advances and advantages-nothing is perfect. With the technological advances, some people benefit. Some people do not.

I am on a Jane Austen newsgroup, and their are some people who sigh for
the "good old days" of her novels. But somehow they always picture
themselves as the comfortable gentry, and not their servants or tenants!
Also, Jane Austen herself died in her forties, probably of something
that is quite treatable now (Addison's disease).

shinypenny <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote:
In short order he gave it up and started being considerate to me. He'd call and let me know if he was going to be late. It didn't take long before he started coming home at a decent hour, too. And then shortly after that, he stopped going out with his buddy at all. They quickly drifted apart, the guy eventually got a different job, and now they speak rarely.

Huh. I had a really similar situation with my now-H when we were first
going out. He'd stay out much later than he said and then come home and
wait for me to yell at him. I didn't yell (it really didn't bother me -
I just went to sleep), and shortly thereafter, he gave it up. I wonder
if he just wanted to see if he *could* bar crawl until all hours, and
once he found out he could, he didn't need to.

I would have been much more bothered if he'd done this when we had a
baby. So my story isn't much help to the OP. But I thought it was
interesting in view of what you said here.

mbjq@earthlink.net (Emma Anne) writes:
shinypenny <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote: In short order he gave it up and started being considerate to me. He'd call and let me know if he was going to be late. It didn't take long before he started coming home at a decent hour, too. And then shortly after that, he stopped going out with his buddy at all. They quickly drifted apart, the guy eventually got a different job, and now they speak rarely. Huh. I had a really similar situation with my now-H when we were first going out. He'd stay out much later than he said and then come home and wait for me to yell at him. I didn't yell (it really didn't bother me - I just went to sleep), and shortly thereafter, he gave it up. I wonder if he just wanted to see if he *could* bar crawl until all hours, and once he found out he could, he didn't need to. I would have been much more bothered if he'd done this when we had a baby. So my story isn't much help to the OP. But I thought it was interesting in view of what you said here.

An advantage that both of you (jen and E-A) had when dealing with this
is that neither of you actually minded your SO's bar-crawling.

The OP does mind, which is going to make it much harder for her to
adopt a tactic which involves acting as if she doesn't mind. I'm not
saying that this tactic isn't worth trying, but she'll have to be a
better actress than you guys had to be, or just change what she cares
about.

"Shashay Doofray" <shashay@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:bfA1c.4263$E33.1570@fe21... "Ang" <nospam@nospam.ca> wrote in message news:gUw1c.6984$jw2.441513@news20.bellglobal.com.. . My husband has lately for the last year or so has begun to hang out with his friends alot. Too much for my liking. 4x a week give or take. Our house has become a smoke free home because of our 2 year old daughter. You're kidding right Ang? You won't "allow" your husband to smoke in his own home, which he works hard to pay for and you wonder why he doesn't
want to be there? Not to mention the fact that most two year olds need to be duct taped and Nyquiled into a coma to even stand being around.

GAH! Just don't have kids is the REAL solution per SD.

Anyway, DH and I do not smoke in our house. I did not smoke for eons, with
my husband trotting out to the back porch or garage. It is a sensible
solution for the prevention of asthma. Of course, quiting smoking is a more
reasonable solution. But reason and addiction do not go together.
My suggestion to you would be to try being a little more fun to be around and stop making rude and inconsiderate demands on your husbands behavior
in his OWN HOME. Maybe, just maybe then he will actually WANT to spend a little time there instead of anyplace else.

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2rB1c.110611$Xp.493043@attbi_s54... "Shashay Doofray" <shashay@yahoo.com> writes: "Ang" <nospam@nospam.ca> wrote in message news:gUw1c.6984$jw2.441513@news20.bellglobal.com.. . My husband has lately for the last year or so has begun to hang out
with his friends alot. Too much for my liking. 4x a week give or take. Our
house has become a smoke free home because of our 2 year old daughter. You're kidding right Ang? You won't "allow" your husband to smoke in
his own home, which he works hard to pay for and you wonder why he doesn't
want to be there? Not to mention the fact that most two year olds need to be duct taped and Nyquiled into a coma to even stand being around. Where to start Shashay, and is it even worth it? 1) has she said that her husband supports the family financially and not her? That may be true, but I don't think she has told us that. 2) if her husband is an at all responsible guy, _he_ won't smoke at home because he doesn't want to expose the rest of his family to the second-hand smoke health hazard. Why are you assuming that is Ang's decision? 3) Most two year olds that I know are great fun.

But by 3.... (Just kidding)

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:o5n06we6oo.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu... caren50@msn.com (Caren) writes: caren50@msn.com (Caren) wrote in message
news:<3754f0b3.0403040628.462f6a63@posting.google.com>... "Shashay Doofray" <shashay@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<bfA1c.4263$E33.1570@fe21>... > "Ang" <nospam@nospam.ca> wrote in message > news:gUw1c.6984$jw2.441513@news20.bellglobal.com.. . > > My husband has lately for the last year or so has begun to hang
out with his > > friends alot. Too much for my liking. 4x a week give or take. Our
house has > > become a smoke free home because of our 2 year old daughter. > > You're kidding right Ang? You won't "allow" your husband to smoke
in his > own home, which he works hard to pay for and you wonder why he
doesn't want > to be there? Not to mention the fact that most two year olds need
to be > duct taped and Nyquiled into a coma to even stand being around. > > My suggestion to you would be to try being a little more fun to be
around > and stop making rude and inconsiderate demands on your husbands
behavior in > his OWN HOME. Maybe, just maybe then he will actually WANT to spend
a > little time there instead of anyplace else. > > SD Come on SD, is Durago that bad??? If you're old enough to make babies, surely you can understand that certain responsibilities come with that and one of those is that a child is not growing up with second hand smoke. Not to mention the role modeling that is present when a parent smokes. As far as most two year olds needing to be duct tapes, it sounds to me as if you have just seen too many kids that are out of control. Personally, I'm not sure that kids get any cuter than those young ages. They are a total crack up in their innocence and ability to talk. I have no clue as to whether this OP is not fun at home, I surely don't think that her desire to have a smoke free house is not rude or inconsiderate. Don't you and your husband ask things of each other? Granted you don't have children so there are no health risks to an innocent bystander but don't each of you have quirks or things that you like and dislike? Men and women have different styles, there's no getting around that. Of course we have our stereotypical male and female type of thinking and of course not all of us fall into that stereotyping. In my house we do. My husband could not care less about cleanliness or how the house looks. I care very much about both. If I weren't on him, our house would look like a dump and he knows that. Yes, it's his home too, but I still have the right to ask him to put his stuff away, I have the right to expect things of him in our home. Just as he has the right to expect things of me in his garden :-) Don't you think you're being a tad hard on the OP? My suggestion to her is what other posters have said. Get to the root of it and go for counseling. Also, how long have you two been together? I have found that it really takes several years for families to get into a groove once a child has been born. It almost sounds to me as if parenting is not first on this man's mind. Having fun seems to be. I see nothing wrong with going out with your friends, but if that takes presedence over the marriage, then something is up. Lying...well,kids learn that if they lie they won't get in trouble. Some people never grow up and continue lying. This is scary Doug- not only were you and I typing at the same time, but we virtually typed the same thing. You were 2 minutes ahead of me though :-) Well, I thought Shashay's scold deserved a response! Especially as it made assumptions that were not in the original post (and that in at least one detail were wrong - both people in that couple earn money, so it isn't the case that he brings home the money, and she has the rest of the responsiblities. In fact it seems like they both earn money but she has the rest of the responsibilities, which seems quite unfair!).

It may be me... but SD makes me totally nuts. I like everyone else on this
group, even, maybe especially, the folks with whom I do not agree. But she
makes me utterly nuts.

S

"Shashay Doofray" <shashay@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:PlR1c.609$9c3.190@fe21... Come on SD, is Durago that bad??? If you're old enough to make babies, surely you can understand that certain responsibilities come with that and one of those is that a child is not growing up with second hand smoke. Not to mention the role modeling that is present when a parent smokes. As far as most two year olds needing to be duct tapes, it sounds to me as if you have just seen too many kids that are out of control. Personally, I'm not sure that kids get any cuter than those young ages. They are a total crack up in their innocence and ability to talk. I disagree with you. I believe in a marriage that the husband should
always come first. When you marry you make a vow to your husband, NOT to your children. It is the wife's responsibility to cater to the needs (and
wants) of her husband. Children need to be "worked around" the needs of the marriage. If second hand smoke is bad for the children, then the children need to be in another room away from it, if the mother is worried about health issues. You don't tell the husband what to do - you tell the children what to do. That is why so many marriages fail. The children become more important than the husband.


Which makes it entirely reasonable that you did not choose to have kids.
As for my personal situation. Yes there are thing which I prefer and
which my husband prefers. Luckily, my husband is very perceptive and genuinely caring and loving so he picks up on them. Otherwise, I would never dream
of saying "do this" or "do that". (Although I might, occasionally ask in a very nice way). My philosphy is ... "If it bugs you to have a mess then it's YOUR problem and you clean it up, otherwise live with it"... My husband used to smoke. Even though the smoke made my nose plug up, my eyes run and made everything smell absolutely disgusting. I never so much
as said a word against it ever, because it wasn't MY decision to make. It
was his house and I respected that he was a mature adult able to make his own decisions. After he quit I was happy, but I never made his life miserable while he was doing it. I think the OP must have made her husband's life just miserable enough
that he wants to be away from her as much as possible. What other explanation would there be? SD

"Shashay Doofray" <shashay@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3YT1c.1515$9c3.109@fe21... That is a very traditional view of what being a Wife is all about, and
one I generally agree with... Good for you! I'm sure you are going to get a lot of slack from less traditional
Women, but I doubt you'll hear too many negatives from the Men :) Diana Thanks Diana, I am a very traditional wife, and I do get a lot of flack for it, as it is not fashionable these days to sacrifice for the happiness of your husband
or your marriage. Oh, I listen to these new age males tell me that they wouldn't WANT a submissive, caring, nurturing wife, but I think down deep inside they are fooling themselves. SD

One can eb very caring and nurturing without being submissive. What is the
value in being submissive? Ick.

S


S

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:T0W1c.46789$PR3.974020@attbi_s03... "Shashay Doofray" <shashay@yahoo.com> writes: "Bill in Co." <surly_curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:9kU1c.19848$yZ1.15161@newsread2.news.pas.eart hlink.net... I think very few people sacrifice all that much these days. And it
seems to get worse in each succeeding generation. Compared to the WW II and Depression Era set, we're spoiled. Of course, few will actually have
the humility to admit this, but it is true. (And I think most of us know
it, deep down inside. (Just go talk - and really LISTEN, to your grandmas and grandads) Recently Bill, I was on a RiverBarge Excursion down the Intercoastal Waterway from Corpus Christi to Port Isabel, and on this cruise there
was primarily a lot of really OLD people (I would say the average age was
about 70). It really is fascinating to talk with older people and to try and imagine what their world was like when they were young - and how much it
has changed. The problem is, I think, that the Media has convinced us that with improvements in medicine, and technology and communications and transportation that somehow the world is a better place to be than it
was 50 or 60 years ago. This philosophy has been spoon fed to us. You read it
in every text book in every school from here to China. And maybe, in some ways, it is a better world. Thanks to pennicillin, not so many people
die from infections and such.... But overall, in the grand scheme of
things, when you think about how the world has REALLY changed. How people
relate to eachother, how families relate to eachother, the degree that life is
truly MEANINGFUL, I don't think the world has gotten any better at all. You're right. If you listen to real people who have "been there", you
learn about things that are important. Trouble is, not many people listen. -Them days we were glad to have the price of a cup of tea. -Ay! A cup of cold tea! -Without milk or sugar! -Or tea! -In a cracked cup and all. -Oh, we never used to have a cup! We used to have to drink out of a rolled-up newspaper! -The best we could manage was to suck on a piece of damp cloth. -But you know, we were happy in those days, although we were poor. -Because we were poor! ... -Right! I had to get up in the morning, at ten o'clock at night, half an hour before I went to bed, eat a lump of cold poison, work twenty-nine hours a day down at the mill and pay the mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our dad would kill us and dance about on our graves, singing Hallelujah! -Oh, ay. And you try and tell the young people of today that, and they won't believe you!

AND you had to walk UP HILL both ways to school when you were small.

"Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote in message
news:bJSdnVEUcdsJddXdRVn-jg@telcove.net... "Shashay Doofray" <shashay@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:3YT1c.1515$9c3.109@fe21... That is a very traditional view of what being a Wife is all about,
and one I generally agree with... Good for you! I'm sure you are going to get a lot of slack from less traditional Women, but I doubt you'll hear too many negatives from the Men :) Diana Thanks Diana, I am a very traditional wife, and I do get a lot of flack for it, as
it is not fashionable these days to sacrifice for the happiness of your
husband or your marriage. Oh, I listen to these new age males tell me that they wouldn't WANT a submissive, caring, nurturing wife, but I think down
deep inside they are fooling themselves. SD One can eb very caring and nurturing without being submissive. What is
the value in being submissive? Ick. S

But don't you wonder what should happen if her hatred of children ever
clashed with her desire to submit to her husband and put his happiness
first? What if he decided one day that he wanted children? Would she
submit and be traditional, or would she throw that all out the window and
refuse?

Stephanie Stowe <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote:
It may be me... but SD makes me totally nuts. I like everyone else on this group, even, maybe especially, the folks with whom I do not agree. But she makes me utterly nuts.

When I run into someone who effects me like that (and I have), I
kill-file them. Just a thought.

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0403041246.45ef2b46@posting.google.c om... "Ang" <nospam@nospam.ca> wrote in message
news:<gUw1c.6984$jw2.441513@news20.bellglobal.com>... My husband has lately for the last year or so has begun to hang out with
his friends alot. Too much for my liking. 4x a week give or take. Our house
has become a smoke free home because of our 2 year old daughter. He is also involved with a service club and he is in charge of fundraising. That
keeps him busy, now the problem. If he has a meeting, he'll tell me he'll be
home by 7. Some nights he calls and says that "everyone" is going over to his friends house for a few beers.He goes there because he can sit and watch
TV smoke andplay cards. Here's the problem. Last night he told me he was going over to his
friends house like normal. He'll be home probably after 10. . At 11:00 I try his cell phone ...no answer...so I try his friends house....no answer! When
he does finally show upat 12:30 his friend is dropping him off. I now know
he is lying, because if he was there he would have taken a cab home and his buddy wouldn't have given him a ride home. I ask him where he was, he
says at Doug's. In the morning I ask again where he was and his tells me the same. I get home from work, and call him on his lie, then he tells me
they were at some other woman's house that they have just started hanging
around. I'm really hurt that he would lie. Now I naturally assume the worst, but have no proof of an actual affair.I'm so mad and hurt, I don't know what
to do. My question, how am I supposed to believe anything he says. I"ll believe
in you 100%, screw me and that's the end. I would never ever think about
lying to him about anything or anyone I'm hanging around, so why would he? I know some of you have had this kind of experience, what did you do?? Sorry about the long windedness of this post. The lying is bad; I won't say it isn't. Nor is it excusable. However, I caution you against allowing your anger about his lying to obfuscate the *real* issues. Those are: - You want him to spend more time at home - You want him to be more involved with the childcare - You want him to spend more quality time with you - I'm guessing you wouldn't mind your own break every now and then... a chance to go out with the girls, go shopping, to the healthclub? - His smoking is an issue to you He knows these are all issues with you... and he deliberately avoids these issues by going out with his friends. He wants to avoid these issues bad enough that he will resort to lying to you. It's a clever tactic, if you think about it. I was just reading a book about dealing with adolescents and it discussed how teens use this same tactic when they're caught doing something they know is wrong. For example, breaking curfew. The book discusses how parents shoot themselves in the foot if they start screaming, ranting, raving, and doling out punishments when the teen slinks home after curfew. This gives the teen all sorts of convenient excuses to avoid addressing their own culpability - "Mom doesn't understand me!! Mom is too strict!! Everyone else gets to stay out late!! It's not my fault - she's the unreasonable one!! And besides, who could blame me for not wanting to be at home? It's more pleasant with my friends!!!" Yep, I'm sorry to say that your hubby is acting like a rebellious teenager, and forcing you into the parent role. I'm sure that's not what you want, and I'm betting he doesn't want that, either. So the question is, how do you improve the situation? You do so by treating him like the adult & partner he is supposed to be, and you set your own boundaries to be treated likewise like the adult & partner you are. If you don't fall into the parent role with him, hopefully over time he will stop finding the need to play the rebellious teen. Specifically: 1) Regarding the smoking. I hear what you're saying and understand where you're coming from, but he is an adult and you need to respect he can make his own decisions (as stupid as they may be). Strive to learn how to "agree to disagree" on this issue. Strike a loving compromise for now: no smoking in the house or around your daughter, but out on the back porch okay. Refrain from giving him dirty looks when he smokes. Take the pressure off of him to stop smoking for you and your daughter, and it may be easier for him to quit because he wants to - not because you want him to.

I agree with every single thing you say. EXCEPT THIS. Leave smoking off the
change table because second hand smoke is awfully bad for little lungs.
2) Sit down and have a family meeting with him. Explain that you are feeling overwhelmed with the childcare duties. Show him a list of duties that must be done each night and ask him which ones he could help you out on? Don't tell him what he should do - allow him to offer help. Approach him to help you problem solve this - men love to problem solve. :-) 3) Explain that you are feeling disconnected with him lately, and ask him to problem solve with you ways you could carve out some quality couple time. Get a sitter? Commit to spending an hour together each night after baby is in bed? Etc. Next time you catch him in a lie or coming home too late, it is enough to simply give him a disappointed look (which, please note, is different than a "disapproving" look - disapproving=parent; disappointed=spouse) and without raising your voice, remind him of his promise, "I waited up for you because you said you'd be home by 11; next time, please call if you won't be home by 11, because I do worry." Or "I kept baby up, figuring you would want to kiss her goodnight, but when you weren't home by 8 I tucked her in... she missed her daddy." Or "I called your friend's house but you weren't there; next time, please let me know where you'll be at, because I worry when I can't reach you." Do you see how this is better than catching him in a lie or confronting him? Do you see how it defuses his ability to make you the bad guy, the overbearing, too strict parent? How his rebellious teen act gets no further fuel? In fact, if he does start to make excuses for his actions, simply put your hand up to stop him and say, "I'm tired, let's go to bed" and give him a kiss and a hug. Then the next day when you're refreshed, hopefully you'll get an apology from him. If not, you start the discussion in a more productive manner: "I am concerned we don't seem to have a lot of couple time these days, since we're both so busy. I was pretty tired last night, but I wanted to wait up for you so I could hear about your day and kiss you goodnight. I miss you! However, when 10:30 rolled around I could barely keep my eyes open... then when 11:00 rolled around, I started getting worried about you, thinking maybe you'd had an accident? So I called your friends' house, but you weren't there so I didn't know what to think." <insert his lame excuses here> "I see. I am glad you had fun at your friend's house. But hopefully you can see things from my perspective? That I worry when you're not where you say you will be? What would happen if baby had an emergency and I couldn't reach you? And also that I wait up for you; it would've been nice to know you were going to be in later than 10, because I would've gone straight to bed. I could've used the sleep <laugh>! Hmmm... so how do you think we could prevent this from happening in the future?" <insert his promise to call you in the future if he's going to be later than he originally planned, or if he goes somewhere different than originally planned> Then open the conversation to the deeper issues: "I feel we are drifting apart, and would like to find more time for us. How do you think we could solve that together?" jen

"Emma Anne" <mbjq@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1ga6h5e.1ir25t11taub72N%mbjq@earthlink.net... Stephanie Stowe <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote: It may be me... but SD makes me totally nuts. I like everyone else on
this group, even, maybe especially, the folks with whom I do not agree. But
she makes me utterly nuts. When I run into someone who effects me like that (and I have), I kill-file them. Just a thought.

How do you do that in Outlook Express, do you know? I used to. But I now
cannot find it.

S

"Chrys" <notarealaddress@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:c2apg9$1q7es5$1@ID-198599.news.uni-berlin.de... "Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote in message news:bJSdnVEUcdsJddXdRVn-jg@telcove.net... "Shashay Doofray" <shashay@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:3YT1c.1515$9c3.109@fe21... > That is a very traditional view of what being a Wife is all about, and one > I generally agree with... Good for you! > > I'm sure you are going to get a lot of slack from less traditional Women, > but I doubt you'll hear too many negatives from the Men :) > > Diana > Thanks Diana, I am a very traditional wife, and I do get a lot of flack for it, as it is not fashionable these days to sacrifice for the happiness of your husband or your marriage. Oh, I listen to these new age males tell me that they wouldn't WANT a submissive, caring, nurturing wife, but I think down deep inside they are fooling themselves. SD One can eb very caring and nurturing without being submissive. What is the value in being submissive? Ick. S But don't you wonder what should happen if her hatred of children ever clashed with her desire to submit to her husband and put his happiness first? What if he decided one day that he wanted children? Would she submit and be traditional, or would she throw that all out the window and refuse?

It actually sounds like they are pretty much on the same page. And more
power to 'em. I guess I have never wondered that.

S

"nachtigal" <nachtigal@mail2hell.com> wrote in message news:<c29dj2$hh4$03$1@news.t-online.com>... "Dakota Monroe" <dakota_mon@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:d8b15372.0403041511.729098fb@posting.google.c om... <snip>I could very well be wrong BUT I doubt if an affair was really going on that he would have admitted being at her house even if you asked him 50 times. I would think it wouldn't be that difficult to have an excuse why the friend dropped him off. The fact he admitted it relatively quickly leads me to think there is no affair but like I said I could be wrong. Yes you could be. When I first asked mine about it, he openly talked to me about her, how she was a good friend and how they shared a weird sence of humor. Then I found out that some of their "jokes" consisted in sending each other "I wanna f*** you" messages. Some people involved in an emotional (or otherwise) affair, don´t realize that what they are doing is improper, because as far as their values and morals are concerned, what their are doing is "ok" and they really can´t understand what "you are fussing about". Sioban


Slightly different cases. If I'm reading you correctly what you're
saying is in your case he didn't realize he was doing anything
seriously wrong even though he had already crossed the line with those
types of emails. If thats the case then of course he will openly admit
it. I mean whats to hide in his mind. For the case of the original
poster I got the impression that he knew on some level that he was
doing something wrong or he knew that what he was doing could easily
be interpreted as being something wrong. In those cases people rarely
admit things so openly. But hey like I said before I don't know. I
could very well be wrong. I'm not saying that people always behave the
way I described.

"Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> writes:
"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:2rB1c.110611$Xp.493043@attbi_s54... "Shashay Doofray" <shashay@yahoo.com> writes: "Ang" <nospam@nospam.ca> wrote in message news:gUw1c.6984$jw2.441513@news20.bellglobal.com.. . > My husband has lately for the last year or so has begun to hang out with his > friends alot. Too much for my liking. 4x a week give or take. Our house has > become a smoke free home because of our 2 year old daughter. You're kidding right Ang? You won't "allow" your husband to smoke in his own home, which he works hard to pay for and you wonder why he doesn't want to be there? Not to mention the fact that most two year olds need to be duct taped and Nyquiled into a coma to even stand being around. Where to start Shashay, and is it even worth it? 1) has she said that her husband supports the family financially and not her? That may be true, but I don't think she has told us that. 2) if her husband is an at all responsible guy, _he_ won't smoke at home because he doesn't want to expose the rest of his family to the second-hand smoke health hazard. Why are you assuming that is Ang's decision? 3) Most two year olds that I know are great fun. But by 3.... (Just kidding)

The dirty secret of parenting: the "terrible twos" aren't called that
because they happen when the child is two. They are called that
because they go on for two years (18 months to 3.5 years).

Emma Anne wrote:
Stephanie Stowe <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote: It may be me... but SD makes me totally nuts. I like everyone else on this group, even, maybe especially, the folks with whom I do not agree. But she makes me utterly nuts. When I run into someone who effects me like that (and I have), I kill-file them. Just a thought.

That is one solution. I have never killfiled anyone. There are people
whose posts I usually skip, but only because they bore me to death!
SD, well, I never skip her posts! She makes me laugh, and that's a
good thing. People with radically different world view don't
bother me at all (and in the case of these submissive women, they
actually make me feel good about myself and grateful for my own life).

Stephanie Stowe wrote: "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:T0W1c.46789$PR3.974020@attbi_s03... "Shashay Doofray" <shashay@yahoo.com> writes: "Bill in Co." <surly_curmudgeon@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:9kU1c.19848$yZ1.15161@newsread2.news.pas.eart hlink.net...> I think very few people sacrifice all that much these days. And it seems> to get worse in each succeeding generation. Compared to the WW II and> Depression Era set, we're spoiled. Of course, few will actually have the> humility to admit this, but it is true. (And I think most of us know it,> deep down inside. (Just go talk - and really LISTEN, to your grandmas
and> grandads) Recently Bill, I was on a RiverBarge Excursion down the Intercoastal Waterway from Corpus Christi to Port Isabel, and on this cruise there was primarily a lot of really OLD people (I would say the average age was about 70). It really is fascinating to talk with older people and to try and imagine what their world was like when they were young - and how much it
has changed. The problem is, I think, that the Media has convinced us that with improvements in medicine, and technology and communications and transportation that somehow the world is a better place to be than it was
50 or 60 years ago. This philosophy has been spoon fed to us. You read it in every text book in every school from here to China. And maybe, in some ways, it is a better world. Thanks to pennicillin, not so many people die from infections and such.... But overall, in the grand scheme of things, when you think about how the world has REALLY changed. How people relate
to eachother, how families relate to eachother, the degree that life is truly MEANINGFUL, I don't think the world has gotten any better at all. You're right. If you listen to real people who have "been there", you
learn about things that are important. Trouble is, not many people listen. -Them days we were glad to have the price of a cup of tea. -Ay! A cup of cold tea! -Without milk or sugar! -Or tea! -In a cracked cup and all. -Oh, we never used to have a cup! We used to have to drink out of a rolled-up newspaper! -The best we could manage was to suck on a piece of damp cloth. -But you know, we were happy in those days, although we were poor. -Because we were poor! ... -Right! I had to get up in the morning, at ten o'clock at night, half an hour before I went to bed, eat a lump of cold poison, work twenty-nine hours a day down at the mill and pay the mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our dad would kill us and dance about on our graves, singing Hallelujah! -Oh, ay. And you try and tell the young people of today that, and they won't believe you! AND you had to walk UP HILL both ways to school when you were small.

Yes. And we sometimes took the bus to school, if it was a real long distance
away. We didn't expect to be DRIVEN there, nor did we own, and drive, cars to
high school. (I know, I know, it's a foreign concept....)

"Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote in message news:<6v-dncISD40bdNXdRVn-sw@telcove.net>...
1) Regarding the smoking. I hear what you're saying and understand where you're coming from, but he is an adult and you need to respect he can make his own decisions (as stupid as they may be). Strive to learn how to "agree to disagree" on this issue. Strike a loving compromise for now: no smoking in the house or around your daughter, but out on the back porch okay. Refrain from giving him dirty looks when he smokes. Take the pressure off of him to stop smoking for you and your daughter, and it may be easier for him to quit because he wants to - not because you want him to. I agree with every single thing you say. EXCEPT THIS. Leave smoking off the change table because second hand smoke is awfully bad for little lungs.

I'm confused. What damage to little lungs can be caused by smoking
outside on the porch?

I agree that parents shouldn't smoke around their children. But I
suggested a compromise, that he could at least smoke out on the porch
and when the child is not around.

Personally, I think the OP would do better if she strikes such a
compromise with her hubby, and just lets this issue drop for now. They
have more than enough on their plate to deal with as it is. As for the
example he's setting, a 2 year old will simply not have any memory of
daddy smoking (assuming he quits before she starts forming such
long-term childhood memories). Concentrate on the other issues first,
and the smoking issue may end up taking care of itself.

Wait until the child enters kindergarten and comes home in tears
because she was teased by the other kids because her daddy smelled
funny. That'll do more to guilt the guy into quitting than anything.

jen

mbjq@earthlink.net (Emma Anne) wrote in message news:<1ga6awj.10figekrw6e9lN%mbjq@earthlink.net>...

I would have been much more bothered if he'd done this when we had a baby. So my story isn't much help to the OP. But I thought it was interesting in view of what you said here.


That definetly adds a whole 'nother dimension.

Becoming a parent is one of the major life changing events. When
confronted with the reality of a crying baby who's completely
dependent on you for the next 18 years or so, I think it's normal to
suddenly find you have very mixed feelings about what is supposed to
be a blessed and welcome event! And then of course you feel horrible
to have such less-than-positive thoughts. It's even worse when your
spouse seems to take to the new role like a duck to water. Just makes
you feel all the more inadequate and loutish.

And, not everyone accepts such changes with grace; they go down with a
fight first, desparate to hold on to the last threads of independence,
freedom and youth. It's obvious to me that her husband is completely
terrified of his new responsibilities and has seriously regressed. On
the one hand, he's working very long hours, which shows that he takes
the responsibilities seriously. OTOH, he's smoking, coming home late,
staying out with friends... *anything* to avoid the reality that has
become his home life.

Unfortunately, the more the OP acts the role of parent to his child,
the more convenient it is for him to avoid accepting these
responsibilities and grow up. He's too busy fighting his silly battle
with her. Once she eliminates that battle, he'll have no choice but to
face his own fears straight on. It may take time and patience; I
wouldn't be surprised if when she laid off on him, he responds by
deliberately trying to entice her into another battle. As long as he's
got that battle going with her, he doesn't have to confront his
smoking, his lack of involvement with his child, and the general ill
state of his marriage.

jen

Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<44brnbqgib.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu>...
An advantage that both of you (jen and E-A) had when dealing with this is that neither of you actually minded your SO's bar-crawling.

And also, Emma Ann and I were both in the early dating stages, with
less invested in the relationship.
The OP does mind,

I believe she said she doesn't mind him going out with friends - just
not so late, nor so often, and of course lying about it.
which is going to make it much harder for her to adopt a tactic which involves acting as if she doesn't mind. I'm not saying that this tactic isn't worth trying, but she'll have to be a better actress than you guys had to be, or just change what she cares about.

I don't believe I recommended that she act like she doesn't mind. I
think I suggested she:

1) pick her battles carefully (lying is bad, but what's the real issue
here?)

2) time her battles better (wait until morning to address the
situation; it's too easy to get into a nasty battle late at night when
everyone's tired)

3) Resist the urge to bite on the bait he is dangling; his bait is a
diversionary tactic

4) Express how she minds his behavior, but do so in a more
constructive, problem-solving way (I waited up for you because I miss
you... and then I got worried when you didn't call... )

jen

shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) writes:
"Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote in message news:<6v-dncISD40bdNXdRVn-sw@telcove.net>... 1) Regarding the smoking. I hear what you're saying and understand where you're coming from, but he is an adult and you need to respect he can make his own decisions (as stupid as they may be). Strive to learn how to "agree to disagree" on this issue. Strike a loving compromise for now: no smoking in the house or around your daughter, but out on the back porch okay. Refrain from giving him dirty looks when he smokes. Take the pressure off of him to stop smoking for you and your daughter, and it may be easier for him to quit because he wants to - not because you want him to. I agree with every single thing you say. EXCEPT THIS. Leave smoking off the change table because second hand smoke is awfully bad for little lungs. I'm confused. What damage to little lungs can be caused by smoking outside on the porch?

Where is that OP anyhow? She's been surprisingly absent from this
discussion. For all I know, smoking on the porch is fine at their
house (if they even have a porch).

shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) writes:
Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<44brnbqgib.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu>... An advantage that both of you (jen and E-A) had when dealing with this is that neither of you actually minded your SO's bar-crawling. And also, Emma Ann and I were both in the early dating stages, with less invested in the relationship. The OP does mind, I believe she said she doesn't mind him going out with friends - just not so late, nor so often, and of course lying about it. which is going to make it much harder for her to adopt a tactic which involves acting as if she doesn't mind. I'm not saying that this tactic isn't worth trying, but she'll have to be a better actress than you guys had to be, or just change what she cares about. I don't believe I recommended that she act like she doesn't mind. I think I suggested she: 1) pick her battles carefully (lying is bad, but what's the real issue here?) 2) time her battles better (wait until morning to address the situation; it's too easy to get into a nasty battle late at night when everyone's tired) 3) Resist the urge to bite on the bait he is dangling; his bait is a diversionary tactic 4) Express how she minds his behavior, but do so in a more constructive, problem-solving way (I waited up for you because I miss you... and then I got worried when you didn't call... )

Right. I agree with 1-4. I'm just pointing out that it is tougher to
do that in her situation than in the ones that you and Emma Anne
described.

"shinypenny" wrote:
Becoming a parent is one of the major life changing events. When confronted with the reality of a crying baby who's completely dependent on you for the next 18 years or so, I think it's normal to suddenly find you have very mixed feelings about what is supposed to be a blessed and welcome event! And then of course you feel horrible to have such less-than-positive thoughts. It's even worse when your spouse seems to take to the new role like a duck to water. Just makes you feel all the more inadequate and loutish.

You are very understanding and wise. This happens a lot, usually to immature
men, happened to my husband too.

(It seems to me though, that it´s mostly men, that can afford the luxury of
acting out after the first child is born.
The poor woman *must* take to her new role like a duck to water... she has
no other choice!)

I also noticed, that some men (subconciously) think that once a child enters
the picture, the woman will stay with them no matter what
stunts they pull, "because she needs me now". They start doing stuff that
they wouldn´t dare to do if she were
free to come and go as she pleases. Such men don´t respond well to a
"rebelious teen treatment" but they tend to make miraculous recovery on
a dose of "tough love".

It all depends on how the guy is like and how brave his wife is. :)

And, not everyone accepts such changes with grace; they go down with a fight first, desparate to hold on to the last threads of independence, freedom and youth.

Yup, and sometimes you really have to hit them with a huge clue-by-four, so
that they realize, that just because they
brought a responsibility into the world, doesn´t give them the right to act
like a blooming a**hole.

It´s not easy. It´s a fine line to walk for the woman, because if she is too
easy going, the guy will just keep on pushing, to see
how far he can go, if she´s a nag, he´ll do even worst. It´s also very
important for the woman to know her man. Really know him.

I was fairly sure, that the solution I applied to the problem with my
husband would work, but I was also ready to accept the concequences if it
didn´t.
And now that I think of it, I wouldn´t advise another woman to do exactly
the same, unless she knew hers quite well and also thought that it could
work.

Anyway, the OP got some great advice here and I wish her the best of luck,
she´ll need it.

Sioban

Hi Emma,

which newsgroup is this? I´m very interested in the regency period and would
love to join. You can also mail me if you like.

Sioban

"Emma Anne" wrote:
I am on a Jane Austen newsgroup, and their are some people who sigh for the "good old days" of her novels. But somehow they always picture themselves as the comfortable gentry, and not their servants or tenants! Also, Jane Austen herself died in her forties, probably of something that is quite treatable now (Addison's disease).

"Ellie" <ellie_first@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4049003E.4AABDF86@hotmail.com... Emma Anne wrote: Stephanie Stowe <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote: It may be me... but SD makes me totally nuts. I like everyone else on
this group, even, maybe especially, the folks with whom I do not agree. But
she makes me utterly nuts. When I run into someone who effects me like that (and I have), I kill-file them. Just a thought. That is one solution. I have never killfiled anyone. There are people whose posts I usually skip, but only because they bore me to death! SD, well, I never skip her posts! She makes me laugh, and that's a good thing. People with radically different world view don't bother me at all (and in the case of these submissive women, they actually make me feel good about myself and grateful for my own life).


It sounds to me like she has a perfectly happy marriage. And more power to
her. What pisses me off is the attacks she gives to newbies. OK, I guess I
get a little torqued by her characterizations of kids.

S

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Pzm2c.495224$na.1169927@attbi_s04... Where is that OP anyhow? She's been surprisingly absent from this discussion. For all I know, smoking on the porch is fine at their house (if they even have a porch).

I'm here. I've been sitting back and reading all of your posts. It has given
me a lot to think about.This is going to be long. I'm going to try to cover
everything I've read.

My hubby and I had a discussion about the"other night". It helps to talk
when I'm not so pissed off and he isn't half in the bag. It turns out, they
in fact did go to his buddies house as he had told me. One of the persons
that was supposed to go, couldn't find a babysitter so they packed up and
went to her place. When I had tried to call his phone had been on all day
and the battery had died. He didn't see it as a lie. When you think about it
, it was out of his control. Yes he could have came home, but I do know for
a fact if it where I in this situation he wouldn't even bat a eye. He was
just hanging out with his friends. It is something we used to do as a
couple, it's just that now we have a child, and it seems I'm left at home
and he goes out. Don't get me wrong, I was just out tonight. We do each go
out(he more than I), but I wouldn't feel right spending so much time away
from my daughter. I work all day and really look forward to coming home and
spending my evenings with her. He does too, but he also has this need to
spend more time with friends than I do. The thing is, we don't go out as a
couple very much any more. We do go out a lot, but always with our daughter.
We have been married for 13 yrs. this year, so a 2yr. old in the picture is
a huge change for us. I guess I have adapted to the parent role easier than
he has.Nither one of us would change the fact that we have a child. She
really is the greatest thing that has happened to us, I guess it's just
going to be different than what we were used to doing. We do spend our
entire weekends together and Sundays are definately off limits to his
friends. (HIS CHOICE, NOT ME MAKING HIM DO IT). I don't make him do anything
he doesn't want to.
Reading all of these posts has really given me the ability to look at the
big picture. I was thinking everything was going to be exactly as they had,
but things must change somewhat. I will try to understand his need to go out
more than I. I think as a mother, it is natural for me to spend more time at
home than he. I do know he loves me and he absolutely adores our daughter.
(Who BTW is a wonderful little thing, who has never been any trouble a day
in her life). We can take her anywhere and people just fall in love with
her. She is beautiful and very well behaved! (that's for the people who
think kids are brats!)

BTW, smoking on the porch isn't a problem. He infact smokes in his "office"
which is attached to the house. So he doesn't have to go outside. The thing
that makes me mad is he'll spend all night in there. He likes to play video
poker and smoke!! Same thing he does with his friends.So we don't spend as
much time talking as we used to when he smoked in our own livingroom. BTW, I
used to smoke too! So, I guess I feel I've quit, so should everybody else.
(I just know somebody is going to take my head off for that!!) Oh well!!
We did go out friday night and I hung out with him and his friends! All they
do is sit around, shoot the ****, drink, smoke and play cards! It was really
quite boring. With spring and summer rolling in, they will all be coming
over to our house every friday night. Guys and girls, so that will give me a
chance to hang with them also.
We don't have anyone we can get to babysit that often so it limits us as far
as going out, Although, he did promise to take me to the movies this week
too!
So, to wind up. I don't believe he is having an affair. In my heart of
hearts, even when I was so mad, I didn't believe that. But I was so angry.
I'm sure I will be posting here again when the next bump in the road comes
along.
BTW, I'm not going to mention him quiting smoking again! I'm going to see if
that will work. I do really hope he quits. And it is his choice not to smoke
in the house, I didn't make him do that. It is for the health of our
daughter.
Sorry for being a wind bag. I'm done now!!

THANKS TO ALL WHO TRIED TO HELP. This is a great newsgroup.
Ang

"Ang" wrote in a message:

We do each go out(he more than I), but I wouldn't feel right spending so much time away from my daughter.

That´s how we did it. Each would take turns going out, he more than I.

A lot of parents fall into this trap, because there are no relatives or they
don´t know a decent babysitter.
Now we realize what a big mistake this was. It drove us apart.

A couple we know, have a very strong marriage, even though everyone bet they
would crack - they had 2 children within a year of each other.
They got people to babysit and kept going out together as usual. That was 8
years ago. The kids turned out beautifully and the parents are still
very much in love.
I work all day and really look forward to coming home and spending my evenings with her. He does too, but he also has this need to spend more time with friends than I do.

I also thought my husband needed this. Even though I felt a great deal of
resentment, I thought: a guy needs his space. I will understand and
will not nag... you get the picture. I curbed my needs as much as I could.
He kept taking advantage of it... the stuff he did became more and more
outrageous.
I started to shut down. Then I left.

He always used to be on the run. First from his really f´dup parents, then
from our bad relationship. The same man has now become remarkably
domesticated.
The thing is, we don't go out as a couple very much any more. We do go out a lot, but always with our
daughter.

Yes. We were determined to include our son in everything we did. Especially
my husband felt we would be bad parents if we left our child at the
grandmothers/babysitters once in a while. After we got back together, I
insisted on "us" time. He felt funny about it at first, but now he loves it.
We have been married for 13 yrs. this year, so a 2yr. old in the picture
is a huge change for us.

We had our (3yr.) son late in the relationship too. You are right. It *is* a
huge change. It was a big adjustment for us. We went through hell and back a
couple of times. We are very glad to have him. Couldn´t imagine it anyother
way. It was not easy getting back together. We still hurt over somethings
that happened.
But when we see how happy our son is *because* we are together, it gives us
a great incentive to keep working on it.

Take care,
Sioban

"Ang" <nospam@nospam.ca> wrote in message news:<Xzz2c.16408$jw2.853829@news20.bellglobal.com>...
Reading all of these posts has really given me the ability to look at the big picture. I was thinking everything was going to be exactly as they had, but things must change somewhat.

Parenting is very challenging. It does force things to change. It
might help you to know that right now, with a 2-year-old, your
marriage is probably at the most stressful stage of all. But, it won't
always be like this. My kids are now 9 and 11 and it's a different
sort of challenge, but there is relief because the physical demands
are not nearly so great. They are not as dependent and all-consuming.

In many ways, it is good advice to keep the big picture in mind and
recognize that this too will pass. And then you'll be sad because
it'll seem to have passed way too quickly!! Right now you're in the
thick of it. Sometimes, you just have to muddle through until you get
to the other side. A good sense of humor and "we're in this together"
attitude is very helpful.

And remember, you are both in it together - you are having feelings
about your changing role and relationship, and so is your hubby.
You're just dealing with those feelings a bit differently. Neither way
is better or worse, btw. I think women can learn a lot from men about
protecting our independence and finding time to put our own needs
first. Just as men can learn from women that there's few things in
life more wonderful than having a young child completely reliant on
you, and being there when the child takes their first steps, says
their first word, etc. It sounds to me like you and your hubby could
compliment and balance each other out in those regards, provided you
don't let your differing styles drive a wedge between the two of you.

The most important thing you can do right now is safeguard your
marriage as best you possibly can. Perhaps you and your husband can
sit down and jointly develop some couple-reinforcing rules to get you
through the next few years? For example, maybe you will ensure that
you always have one night out a week, just for the two of you? I can't
stress enough how important it is to have guaranteed block of time set
aside to reconnect, just the two of you.

Another idea from my parent's marriage (going on 43 years), for when
your child is a bit older: every night when dad came home from work,
they would go in the bedroom and lock the door for an hour before
dinner. The three of us kids knew we could not interrupt unless the
house was burning down!! None of us ever felt ignored, either. We felt
very secure and confident that our parent's relationship was a strong
one.

Find yourself a couple ritual you can depend on, something that
reinforces the connection between you two on a daily basis. Another
favorite of my parent's was a long, lingering hug. We'd try to squeeze
between the two of them. In my own relationship, we kiss passionately
hello and goodbye, we hold hands all the time (even in bed while
watching t.v. or reading), we set aside two Fridays a month for just
the two of us - no friends allowed. We do these things *on purpose.*
They are deliberate means of reinforcing the connection between us,
not merely evidence of the connection as one might surmise.

And when you start having those thoughts that you're not on the same
page (i.e., you can't understand why he wants to stay out all night;
or he can't understand why you want him in all night), consider that a
warning sign that you need more re-connect time. That should be a
priority over the outside friendships, and yes, even a priority over
your role as parents.

jen

"nachtigal" <nachtigal@mail2hell.com> wrote in message news:<c2d0gv$om4$06$1@news.t-online.com>... "shinypenny" wrote: Becoming a parent is one of the major life changing events. When confronted with the reality of a crying baby who's completely dependent on you for the next 18 years or so, I think it's normal to suddenly find you have very mixed feelings about what is supposed to be a blessed and welcome event! And then of course you feel horrible to have such less-than-positive thoughts. It's even worse when your spouse seems to take to the new role like a duck to water. Just makes you feel all the more inadequate and loutish. You are very understanding and wise. This happens a lot, usually to immature men, happened to my husband too.

Actually, I was thinking back to my own feelings about becoming a
mother! I felt completely inadequate and guilty for having
less-than-positive thoughts.
My first husband seemed to adapt to the new role much easier. Not so
much with the diapering and daily stuff, but with the reality of the
new responsibilities, having his freedom clipped, etc. I was confused
that he didn't seem to have the same mixed feelings I was having, and
he didn't seem to mind that the babies seriously impacted our time for
each other. He even started calling me "Mother" and that just
completely eeked me out!!

Then of course there were all these other new moms around me, who
didn't seem to be harboring the secret mixed feelings I was having,
and seemed to pick up on the mother thing so much easier than I.
(It seems to me though, that it´s mostly men, that can afford the luxury of acting out after the first child is born. The poor woman *must* take to her new role like a duck to water... she has no other choice!)

Yup.
I also noticed, that some men (subconciously) think that once a child enters the picture, the woman will stay with them no matter what stunts they pull, "because she needs me now". They start doing stuff that they wouldn´t dare to do if she were free to come and go as she pleases. Such men don´t respond well to a "rebelious teen treatment" but they tend to make miraculous recovery on a dose of "tough love". It all depends on how the guy is like and how brave his wife is. :) And, not everyone accepts such changes with grace; they go down with a fight first, desparate to hold on to the last threads of independence, freedom and youth. Yup, and sometimes you really have to hit them with a huge clue-by-four, so that they realize, that just because they brought a responsibility into the world, doesn´t give them the right to act like a blooming a**hole. It´s not easy. It´s a fine line to walk for the woman, because if she is too easy going, the guy will just keep on pushing, to see how far he can go, if she´s a nag, he´ll do even worst. It´s also very important for the woman to know her man. Really know him.

Yup.

You reminded me of something I really appreciate about my DF. With
him, I feel safe to admit sometimes (say the children are squabbling
over something), "I just want to run away ... " If I had said this to
my ex, he would have been apalled that I'd admit such feelings. On the
contrary, DF knows me well enough that I won't run away. He'll crack a
joke that tells me it's okay, that he understands why I might feel
that way at times. That makes it easier to go on and do what I need to
do as a parent.

jen

shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) writes:
"nachtigal" <nachtigal@mail2hell.com> wrote in message news:<c2d0gv$om4$06$1@news.t-online.com>... "shinypenny" wrote: Becoming a parent is one of the major life changing events. When confronted with the reality of a crying baby who's completely dependent on you for the next 18 years or so, I think it's normal to suddenly find you have very mixed feelings about what is supposed to be a blessed and welcome event! And then of course you feel horrible to have such less-than-positive thoughts. It's even worse when your spouse seems to take to the new role like a duck to water. Just makes you feel all the more inadequate and loutish. You are very understanding and wise. This happens a lot, usually to immature men, happened to my husband too. Actually, I was thinking back to my own feelings about becoming a mother! I felt completely inadequate and guilty for having less-than-positive thoughts.

Our joke with our first baby was (at moment when we were feeling
particularly beleaguered): "when are the real parents coming to pick
her up?"

"Chrys" <notarealaddress@lycos.com> wrote in message news:<c2apg9$1q7es5$1@ID-198599.news.uni-berlin.de>...
One can eb very caring and nurturing without being submissive. What is the value in being submissive? Ick. S But don't you wonder what should happen if her hatred of children ever clashed with her desire to submit to her husband and put his happiness first? What if he decided one day that he wanted children? Would she submit and be traditional, or would she throw that all out the window and refuse?

I shouldn't speak for SD, but the way I interpret her is not just that
she submits to her husband; I suspect *he* submits to her as well. So
I would think that her husband would respect her child-free views too
much to ask her to have a child.

I think DF and I share the pants in our family. Sometimes I'm the
submissive one, sometimes he is. Sometimes it depends on the
situation, for example, he likes to be the one to make the decisions
about where we go out; he always asks my opinion, but I've learned
it's much better for both of us for me to say, "Whatever you think,
dear" because usually he has much better ideas than I ever would.

Meanwhile, he actually *likes* to submit to me on certain things. Men
are always supposed to be the aggressor, it gets tiring for them, I
think. We definetly have a lot of fun in bed on those occasions when
he feels like playing the submissive role. :0

jen

"Ang" <nospam@nospam.ca> wrote in message news:<Xzz2c.16408$jw2.853829@news20.bellglobal.com>... "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:Pzm2c.495224$na.1169927@attbi_s04... Where is that OP anyhow? She's been surprisingly absent from this discussion. For all I know, smoking on the porch is fine at their house (if they even have a porch). I'm here. I've been sitting back and reading all of your posts. It has given me a lot to think about.This is going to be long. I'm going to try to cover everything I've read. My hubby and I had a discussion about the"other night". It helps to talk when I'm not so pissed off and he isn't half in the bag. It turns out, they in fact did go to his buddies house as he had told me. One of the persons that was supposed to go, couldn't find a babysitter so they packed up and went to her place. When I had tried to call his phone had been on all day and the battery had died. He didn't see it as a lie. When you think about it , it was out of his control. Yes he could have came home, but I do know for a fact if it where I in this situation he wouldn't even bat a eye. He was just hanging out with his friends. It is something we used to do as a couple, it's just that now we have a child, and it seems I'm left at home and he goes out. Don't get me wrong, I was just out tonight. We do each go out(he more than I), but I wouldn't feel right spending so much time away from my daughter. I work all day and really look forward to coming home and spending my evenings with her. He does too, but he also has this need to spend more time with friends than I do. The thing is, we don't go out as a couple very much any more. We do go out a lot, but always with our daughter. We have been married for 13 yrs. this year, so a 2yr. old in the picture is a huge change for us. I guess I have adapted to the parent role easier than he has.Nither one of us would change the fact that we have a child. She really is the greatest thing that has happened to us, I guess it's just going to be different than what we were used to doing. We do spend our entire weekends together and Sundays are definately off limits to his friends. (HIS CHOICE, NOT ME MAKING HIM DO IT). I don't make him do anything he doesn't want to. Reading all of these posts has really given me the ability to look at the big picture. I was thinking everything was going to be exactly as they had, but things must change somewhat. I will try to understand his need to go out more than I. I think as a mother, it is natural for me to spend more time at home than he. I do know he loves me and he absolutely adores our daughter. (Who BTW is a wonderful little thing, who has never been any trouble a day in her life). We can take her anywhere and people just fall in love with her. She is beautiful and very well behaved! (that's for the people who think kids are brats!) BTW, smoking on the porch isn't a problem. He infact smokes in his "office" which is attached to the house. So he doesn't have to go outside. The thing that makes me mad is he'll spend all night in there. He likes to play video poker and smoke!! Same thing he does with his friends.So we don't spend as much time talking as we used to when he smoked in our own livingroom. BTW, I used to smoke too! So, I guess I feel I've quit, so should everybody else. (I just know somebody is going to take my head off for that!!) Oh well!! We did go out friday night and I hung out with him and his friends! All they do is sit around, shoot the ****, drink, smoke and play cards! It was really quite boring. With spring and summer rolling in, they will all be coming over to our house every friday night. Guys and girls, so that will give me a chance to hang with them also. We don't have anyone we can get to babysit that often so it limits us as far as going out, Although, he did promise to take me to the movies this week too! So, to wind up. I don't believe he is having an affair. In my heart of hearts, even when I was so mad, I didn't believe that. But I was so angry. I'm sure I will be posting here again when the next bump in the road comes along. BTW, I'm not going to mention him quiting smoking again! I'm going to see if that will work. I do really hope he quits. And it is his choice not to smoke in the house, I didn't make him do that. It is for the health of our daughter. Sorry for being a wind bag. I'm done now!! THANKS TO ALL WHO TRIED TO HELP. This is a great newsgroup. Ang

wow....thats beautiful!

audrey

shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) writes:
"Chrys" <notarealaddress@lycos.com> wrote in message news:<c2apg9$1q7es5$1@ID-198599.news.uni-berlin.de>... One can eb very caring and nurturing without being submissive. What is the value in being submissive? Ick. S But don't you wonder what should happen if her hatred of children ever clashed with her desire to submit to her husband and put his happiness first? What if he decided one day that he wanted children? Would she submit and be traditional, or would she throw that all out the window and refuse? I shouldn't speak for SD, but the way I interpret her is not just that she submits to her husband; I suspect *he* submits to her as well. So I would think that her husband would respect her child-free views too much to ask her to have a child.

That's an interesting interpretation of what she says. It doesn't
match mine, but I might have missed some stuff. My interpretation
was that the submission is asymmetric.

Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<ETI2c.80367$PR3.1132066@attbi_s03>... shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) writes: "Chrys" <notarealaddress@lycos.com> wrote in message news:<c2apg9$1q7es5$1@ID-198599.news.uni-berlin.de>... > One can eb very caring and nurturing without being submissive. What is the > value in being submissive? Ick. > > S But don't you wonder what should happen if her hatred of children ever clashed with her desire to submit to her husband and put his happiness first? What if he decided one day that he wanted children? Would she submit and be traditional, or would she throw that all out the window and refuse? I shouldn't speak for SD, but the way I interpret her is not just that she submits to her husband; I suspect *he* submits to her as well. So I would think that her husband would respect her child-free views too much to ask her to have a child. That's an interesting interpretation of what she says. It doesn't match mine, but I might have missed some stuff. My interpretation was that the submission is asymmetric.

I'll tell you what I don't understand...and it somewhat parallels all
of the anti gay threads. It sounds to me as if SD is in a marriage
that she finds to be simply the best that she could ask for. IN the
marriage she sounds as if she is madly in love with him and he, with
her. However, what I don't understand is that if there is so much
love in one's heart, how is there room for so much hatred for
children. I'm not suggesting that they should want children, I just
don't understand how people can hate children and call them names and
attack adults for having them,etc. I also hear a lot of anger in many
of SD's posts- kind of attacking some posters for this and that. If
the marriage is incredibly wonderful, why the anger and the hatred? I
don't understand it and perhaps SD can explain it.

What I really didn't understand was how SD attacked the OP for not
letting her husband smoke in the house with a child. She found that
to be wrong. How can keeping second hand smoke away from a child with
undeveloped lungs be something to attack a person for? The people who
are in the wrong are those who allow people, ANYONE, for smoking near
their fetus, baby or child. With all of the literature available
today SD, this isssue is not an issue of a wife being a *****. She is
actually being a good mother. At least in this regard.

caren50@msn.com (Caren) wrote in message news:<3754f0b3.0403071527.4c3d3417@posting.google.com>... Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<ETI2c.80367$PR3.1132066@attbi_s03>... shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) writes: "Chrys" <notarealaddress@lycos.com> wrote in message news:<c2apg9$1q7es5$1@ID-198599.news.uni-berlin.de>... > > One can eb very caring and nurturing without being submissive. What is the > > value in being submissive? Ick. > > > > S > > But don't you wonder what should happen if her hatred of children ever > clashed with her desire to submit to her husband and put his happiness > first? What if he decided one day that he wanted children? Would she > submit and be traditional, or would she throw that all out the window and > refuse? I shouldn't speak for SD, but the way I interpret her is not just that she submits to her husband; I suspect *he* submits to her as well. So I would think that her husband would respect her child-free views too much to ask her to have a child. That's an interesting interpretation of what she says. It doesn't match mine, but I might have missed some stuff. My interpretation was that the submission is asymmetric. I'll tell you what I don't understand...and it somewhat parallels all of the anti gay threads. It sounds to me as if SD is in a marriage that she finds to be simply the best that she could ask for. IN the marriage she sounds as if she is madly in love with him and he, with her. However, what I don't understand is that if there is so much love in one's heart, how is there room for so much hatred for children.

SD has never said she hates children. She says she hates the way
parents raise children today, and make them the center of the universe
often at the expense of the marital relationship. I may not agree with
SD's methods, but I do agree with her on this point.
I'm not suggesting that they should want children, I just don't understand how people can hate children and call them names and attack adults for having them,etc. I also hear a lot of anger in many of SD's posts- kind of attacking some posters for this and that. If the marriage is incredibly wonderful, why the anger and the hatred? I don't understand it and perhaps SD can explain it.

It's funny but when I first encountered SD I admit I thought she was
striving for some sort of internet persona, like Ms Poopie Pantz. You
know... this person can't be real? It's somebody having fun with us,
or posing as an art form to make her point, intended to shock you to
catch your attention.

What I really didn't understand was how SD attacked the OP for not letting her husband smoke in the house with a child. She found that to be wrong. How can keeping second hand smoke away from a child with undeveloped lungs be something to attack a person for? The people who are in the wrong are those who allow people, ANYONE, for smoking near their fetus, baby or child. With all of the literature available today SD, this isssue is not an issue of a wife being a *****. She is actually being a good mother. At least in this regard.

I guess I'd have to go re-read that part of the thread. My own
impression was that the OP had virtually chased her husband off the
property, and wouldn't let him smoke even outdoors. (I believe she has
since corrected that impression and stated that he can smoke in his
workshop). I had a similar reaction as SD in that I thought that
policy was a bit extreme. It seemed there could be a reasonable
compromise. I'd personally not suggest he smoke inside around the
child, but what's the harm in smoking out on the porch, away from the
child's lungs?

Also I do agree that women can be ridiculous at times, overly
protective about their kids, to the extent of excluding their husbands
completely from the routine care. We shoot ourselves in the foot that
way. When I was a SAHM, it never ceased to amaze me how many women
would complain endlessly that dad was no help, but then when I'd watch
as dad offered help, mom would snatch the baby away and scold dad that
he was all thumbs and wasn't doing it "the right way" (meaning "my"
way).

jen

shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) writes:
caren50@msn.com (Caren) wrote in message news:<3754f0b3.0403071527.4c3d3417@posting.google.com>... Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<ETI2c.80367$PR3.1132066@attbi_s03>... shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) writes: > "Chrys" <notarealaddress@lycos.com> wrote in message news:<c2apg9$1q7es5$1@ID-198599.news.uni-berlin.de>... > > > > One can eb very caring and nurturing without being submissive. What is the > > > value in being submissive? Ick. > > > > > > S > > > > But don't you wonder what should happen if her hatred of children ever > > clashed with her desire to submit to her husband and put his happiness > > first? What if he decided one day that he wanted children? Would she > > submit and be traditional, or would she throw that all out the window and > > refuse? > > I shouldn't speak for SD, but the way I interpret her is not just that > she submits to her husband; I suspect *he* submits to her as well. So > I would think that her husband would respect her child-free views too > much to ask her to have a child. That's an interesting interpretation of what she says. It doesn't match mine, but I might have missed some stuff. My interpretation was that the submission is asymmetric. I'll tell you what I don't understand...and it somewhat parallels all of the anti gay threads. It sounds to me as if SD is in a marriage that she finds to be simply the best that she could ask for. IN the marriage she sounds as if she is madly in love with him and he, with her. However, what I don't understand is that if there is so much love in one's heart, how is there room for so much hatred for children. SD has never said she hates children. She says she hates the way parents raise children today, and make them the center of the universe often at the expense of the marital relationship. I may not agree with SD's methods, but I do agree with her on this point. I'm not suggesting that they should want children, I just don't understand how people can hate children and call them names and attack adults for having them,etc. I also hear a lot of anger in many of SD's posts- kind of attacking some posters for this and that. If the marriage is incredibly wonderful, why the anger and the hatred? I don't understand it and perhaps SD can explain it. It's funny but when I first encountered SD I admit I thought she was striving for some sort of internet persona, like Ms Poopie Pantz. You know... this person can't be real? It's somebody having fun with us, or posing as an art form to make her point, intended to shock you to catch your attention. What I really didn't understand was how SD attacked the OP for not letting her husband smoke in the house with a child. She found that to be wrong. How can keeping second hand smoke away from a child with undeveloped lungs be something to attack a person for? The people who are in the wrong are those who allow people, ANYONE, for smoking near their fetus, baby or child. With all of the literature available today SD, this isssue is not an issue of a wife being a *****. She is actually being a good mother. At least in this regard. I guess I'd have to go re-read that part of the thread. My own impression was that the OP had virtually chased her husband off the property, and wouldn't let him smoke even outdoors.

See, that is why I think it is worth going to the trouble to followup
over-the-top responses like SD's. THe OP says nothing of the sort. I
don't even see how it could make that impression unless you are
already primed to blame the wife for marital dissatisfaction (as SD
seems to be). But SD responded as if it did, thus _creating_ the
impression it said stuff like that.
(I believe she has since corrected that impression and stated that he can smoke in his workshop). I had a similar reaction as SD in that I thought that policy was a bit extreme. It seemed there could be a reasonable compromise. I'd personally not suggest he smoke inside around the child, but what's the harm in smoking out on the porch, away from the child's lungs? Also I do agree that women can be ridiculous at times, overly protective about their kids, to the extent of excluding their husbands completely from the routine care.

It is true that this can happen. I've seen women (and really I
haven't seen the symmetric phenonenon, though I'm sure it is
_possible_) complain about how their husband doesn't do enough. But
everytime he does do something, they are unhappy with how it is done,
thus undercutting any motivation he might have to get more involved.
I see this particularly with SAHMs with respect to child-rearing. (Of
course there are also plenty of women - probably most, who don't do
that.)
We shoot ourselves in the foot that way. When I was a SAHM, it never ceased to amaze me how many women would complain endlessly that dad was no help, but then when I'd watch as dad offered help, mom would snatch the baby away and scold dad that he was all thumbs and wasn't doing it "the right way" (meaning "my" way).

Yes, I see this too.

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0403080539.37702cbe@posting.google.c om... SD has never said she hates children. She says she hates the way parents raise children today, and make them the center of the universe often at the expense of the marital relationship. I may not agree with SD's methods, but I do agree with her on this point.

She has however mentioned both duct tape and Nyquil as a way to make
children nicer to be around. These approaches, whether on their own or
together, can easily be fatal. Perhaps she doesn't hate children, but
recommending things that are fatal certainly isn't loving.

caren50@msn.com (Caren) wrote in message news:<3754f0b3.0403071527.4c3d3417@posting.google.com>... What I really didn't understand was how SD attacked the OP for not letting her husband smoke in the house with a child. She found that to be wrong. How can keeping second hand smoke away from a child with undeveloped lungs be something to attack a person for? The people who are in the wrong are those who allow people, ANYONE, for smoking near their fetus, baby or child. With all of the literature available today SD, this isssue is not an issue of a wife being a *****. She is actually being a good mother. At least in this regard.

Okay I went back and found Ang's original post:

"Here is my problem, because we now have a totally smoke
free home,
he feels the need to spend most of his time at his buddies house.
Playing
cards drinking and smoking."

<snip>

"The smoking
and drinking is bothering me now. We have a daughter to think about,
and
financially we can't afford it anyway. I used to smoke but have quit,
so I
feel that if I could, he could too! He keeps telling me he's going to
quit
next week!! Guess what, just like the going out it turns out to be
a big crock."

Ang may be right to be concerned about her husband's smoking, but the
above did strike me as someone ... well... making it unpleasant for
her husband to continue his habit. Kind of a righteous ex-smoker
stance. I probably jumped to that stereotype in my own mind; having
quit smoking in the past (several times, LOL) I know how obnoxious
ex-smokers can be! Not blaming Ang - being obnoxious, IMHO, is a
self-defense mechanism to ensure you don't start up again. It's a very
hard habit to break, and you can't quit for anyone but *yourself.*

Think about it, if it was a husband who'd lost a lot of weight coming
here *****ing about his wife's weight problem and forbading all junk
food in the house, don't you think we'd be all over his case and tell
him to concentrate on what he can control, not on his wife's behavior?
I don't see how this is any different.

In the more recent thread, SD responded as follows:

"Shashay Doofray" <shashay@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<bfA1c.4263$E33.1570@fe21>... "Ang" <nospam@nospam.ca> wrote in message news:gUw1c.6984$jw2.441513@news20.bellglobal.com.. . My husband has lately for the last year or so has begun to hang out with his friends alot. Too much for my liking. 4x a week give or take. Our house has become a smoke free home because of our 2 year old daughter. You're kidding right Ang? You won't "allow" your husband to smoke in his own home, which he works hard to pay for and you wonder why he doesn't want to be there?

The "allow" part is jumping to conclusions. But I confess I jumped to
the same conclusion myself. Then Ang later clarified that her husband
refrains on his own volition.
Not to mention the fact that most two year olds need to be duct taped and Nyquiled into a coma to even stand being around.

Yeah, that's a pretty harsh statement!! Two-year-olds can be quite
stressful to be around though. The way I see it, Ang is probably
festering some resentment that hubby can and does often slip away to
de-stress himself with a nicotine hit, whereas she's the one left
holding the bag. I know I would be festering with resentment, too. And
also dying for a cigarette myself. :-)

I was thinking the other night that a lot of marital strife, once
children enter the picture, may be a result of parents feeling
resentful towards their children, but it's really not nice to have
those type of feelings, so they project them on each other instead.

You know what, as harsh as SD is, she is being honest. Kids, as
wonderful as they are, can be a pain in the neck, too. Show me a
parent who never once, not even for a fleeting second, had fantasies
about duct-taping and Nyquiling their misbehaving kid into a coma, and
I'll show you a liar. :0 I love my kids to death, would never do such
a thing, but they have had their moments ...
My suggestion to you would be to try being a little more fun to be around and stop making rude and inconsiderate demands on your husbands behavior in his OWN HOME. Maybe, just maybe then he will actually WANT to spend a little time there instead of anyplace else.

Again, SD is sterotyping, and yeah, I guess I stereotyped in my own
mind, too. Because I have seen it happen all too often: baby comes and
suddenly wife becomes "mother." Only that mothering role doesn't stop
just with baby - she starts acting like a mother to her husband, too.

I think it's a fair question to ask oneself: "Am I still a fun spouse
to be around, or have I become all about work and no play? Would *I*
want to be around *me*?" It's really important to keep the fun going
once kids enter the picture. What else gets you through the stressful
times?

Of course, it's not only up to the wife to keep the fun going. And
certainly it can be the husband who becomes all serious and drains
away the fun (as my ex did when our kids were born).

jen

Stephanie Stowe <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote:
"Emma Anne" <mbjq@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:1ga6h5e.1ir25t11taub72N%mbjq@earthlink.net... Stephanie Stowe <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote: It may be me... but SD makes me totally nuts. I like everyone else on this group, even, maybe especially, the folks with whom I do not agree. But she makes me utterly nuts. When I run into someone who effects me like that (and I have), I kill-file them. Just a thought. How do you do that in Outlook Express, do you know? I used to. But I now cannot find it.

I don't, sorry. I hear good things about Agent for PCs.

nachtigal <nachtigal@mail2hell.com> wrote:
Hi Emma, which newsgroup is this? I´m very interested in the regency period and would love to join. You can also mail me if you like.

Here is the listserv:

AUSTEN-L@LISTS.MCGILL.CA

I don't have the instructions for signing on - I think they are pretty
standard ("subscribe" in either the subject or the body).

I was going to mail this, but I was skeptical that your ISP was really
"mail2hell.com"


Sioban "Emma Anne" wrote: I am on a Jane Austen newsgroup, and their are some people who sigh for the "good old days" of her novels. But somehow they always picture themselves as the comfortable gentry, and not their servants or tenants! Also, Jane Austen herself died in her forties, probably of something that is quite treatable now (Addison's disease).

Ang <nospam@nospam.ca> wrote:
The thing is, we don't go out as a couple very much any more. We do go out a lot, but always with our daughter.

I would really strongly urge you to *find* a babysitter. You two should
be having your best times and most fun with each other, not off with
other people. That is one of the most bonding things in a marriage -
having fun together.

"Emma Anne" <mbjq@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1gabpeg.1tzz5n4idxc5hN%mbjq@earthlink.net... nachtigal <nachtigal@mail2hell.com> wrote: Hi Emma, which newsgroup is this? I´m very interested in the regency period and
would love to join. You can also mail me if you like. Here is the listserv: AUSTEN-L@LISTS.MCGILL.CA I don't have the instructions for signing on - I think they are pretty standard ("subscribe" in either the subject or the body). I was going to mail this, but I was skeptical that your ISP was really "mail2hell.com"

ROTFL, thanks, I needed that. Yes, my e-mail provider does offer that.
www.mail2world.com

Sioban

>Show me aparent who never once, not even for a fleeting second, had fantasiesabout duct-taping and Nyquiling their misbehaving kid into a coma, andI'll show you a liar.

Nope. Never. Sorry.

Sheila

Emma Anne wrote: Stephanie Stowe <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote:
How do you do that in Outlook Express, do you know? I used to. But I now cannot find it.

Sorry for piggybacking, I can't find the original post.

Stephanie,

Go to Tools; Message Rules; Blocked Senders List; Add

or better,

Double click the message to get it into a window of its own; Message; Block
Sender

Tai
(now making sure I haven't just blocked Emma Anne!)

shinypenny wrote: You know what, as harsh as SD is, she is being honest. Kids, as wonderful as they are, can be a pain in the neck, too. Show me a parent who never once, not even for a fleeting second, had fantasies about duct-taping and Nyquiling their misbehaving kid into a coma, and I'll show you a liar. :0 I love my kids to death, would never do such a thing, but they have had their moments ...

No, I've never fantasised about harming my children. Never.

The worst I've ever wanted to do (and done) with mine is put a shut door and
the length of the house between us for a few minutes and wished for a 12
hours holiday.

Tai

"Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> writes:
shinypenny wrote: You know what, as harsh as SD is, she is being honest. Kids, as wonderful as they are, can be a pain in the neck, too. Show me a parent who never once, not even for a fleeting second, had fantasies about duct-taping and Nyquiling their misbehaving kid into a coma, and I'll show you a liar. :0 I love my kids to death, would never do such a thing, but they have had their moments ... No, I've never fantasised about harming my children. Never. The worst I've ever wanted to do (and done) with mine is put a shut door and the length of the house between us for a few minutes and wished for a 12 hours holiday.

Well, I've never exactly thought about it. But when our first was on
her third month of sleeping one hour out of every three, nursing for
one hour out of every three, and crying for one hour out of every
three (guess which of those non-sleep periods my wife had her and
guess which one I had her in) I did think about whether I should just
chuck her out the window.

And I have to say, it made child abuse (while not any less terrible)
more comprehensible to me. I mean we may have had an unusually grumpy
baby, but we had lots of resources compared to many people and were
_still_ at the end of our rope.

>No, I've never fantasised about harming my children. Never.The worst I've ever wanted to do (and done) with mine is put a shut door andthe length of the house between us for a few minutes and wished for a 12hours holiday.Tai

Yep.

I'm not saying that anyone who has ever had a fleeting thought of harming (and
yes, I'd include drugging with Nyquil under that heading) their kid is bad, but
I just wanted to make sure that it was clear that such feelings *aren't*
universal. That is what I responded to in Jen's post, and why I probably came
across as curt. I didn't really like the suggestion that *all* parents feel
that way. I never have.

Sheila

whansami@aol.com (WhansaMi) wrote in message news:<20040308163254.08963.00001004@mb-m14.aol.com>...Show me aparent who never once, not even for a fleeting second, had fantasiesabout duct-taping and Nyquiling their misbehaving kid into a coma, andI'll show you a liar. Nope. Never. Sorry. Sheila

Well, interestingly, she _isn't_ a parent and feels that way! And no,
I have never once thought about duct tape or nyquil or a coma. I'd
feel too guilty if something really happened to her. I have
fantasized about purchasing a one way plane ticket to an island- but
never something that would cause her pain. Honestly!

Doug Anderson wrote: "Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> writes:

The worst I've ever wanted to do (and done) with mine is put a shut door and the length of the house between us for a few minutes and wished for a 12 hours holiday. Well, I've never exactly thought about it. But when our first was on her third month of sleeping one hour out of every three, nursing for one hour out of every three, and crying for one hour out of every three (guess which of those non-sleep periods my wife had her and guess which one I had her in) I did think about whether I should just chuck her out the window.

Yes, I was always grateful that I possessed the inbuilt pacifier rather than
my husband!

But even in those times (mercifully few for each of ours) I only ever wanted
them to be someone else's responsibility so I could walk away. My eldest
child wasn't a bad sleeper but when he was awake he needed to be upright and
moving until he was about 4 months old and able to roll himself around. That
was pretty hard to deal with physically because he was a big baby.
And I have to say, it made child abuse (while not any less terrible) more comprehensible to me. I mean we may have had an unusually grumpy baby, but we had lots of resources compared to many people and were _still_ at the end of our rope.

Sleep deprivation is a literally maddening thing to experience. One of my
ideas of hell would be to be a single parent of colicky twins....

Tai

Yes, I was always grateful that I possessed the inbuilt pacifier rather thanmy husband!

Yep. Me too. I nursed for... well, let's just say a long time (I'm sure the
exact time would send some folks in here into heart failure!). My ex called it
"baby valium". ;-)
But even in those times (mercifully few for each of ours) I only ever wantedthem to be someone else's responsibility so I could walk away. My eldestchild wasn't a bad sleeper but when he was awake he needed to be upright andmoving until he was about 4 months old and able to roll himself around. Thatwas pretty hard to deal with physically because he was a big baby.

DS was a colicky baby. Terribly. I carried around a copy of Sear's "The High
Need Infant" in my backpack, to read when I felt despair. And, DS sounds a lot
like your son -- I bought him a walker at 2 months because he wanted to be on
his feet and would SHRIEK if we didn't sit there and help him stand.
Unfortunately, the walker only worked for 10 minutes at a time. :-/ Once he
had mobility on his own he was much happier.

But I, like you, would dream of putting him into his cradle and just being able
to get away from him. I once did it.... just put the crying baby down and
walked out onto the front porch. I only stayed 60 seconds or so, and when I
got back his little face was purple. I just burst into tears, and we both sat
on the couch and cried. I never again put down my crying child.

Sheila

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:W603c.142201$4o.181049@attbi_s52... shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) writes: caren50@msn.com (Caren) wrote in message
news:<3754f0b3.0403071527.4c3d3417@posting.google.com>... Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<ETI2c.80367$PR3.1132066@attbi_s03>... > shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) writes: > > > "Chrys" <notarealaddress@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:<c2apg9$1q7es5$1@ID-198599.news.uni-berlin.de>... > > > > > > One can eb very caring and nurturing without being submissive.
What is the > > > > value in being submissive? Ick. > > > > > > > > S > > > > > > But don't you wonder what should happen if her hatred of
children ever > > > clashed with her desire to submit to her husband and put his
happiness > > > first? What if he decided one day that he wanted children?
Would she > > > submit and be traditional, or would she throw that all out the
window and > > > refuse? > > > > I shouldn't speak for SD, but the way I interpret her is not just
that > > she submits to her husband; I suspect *he* submits to her as well.
So > > I would think that her husband would respect her child-free views
too > > much to ask her to have a child. > > That's an interesting interpretation of what she says. It doesn't > match mine, but I might have missed some stuff. My interpretation > was that the submission is asymmetric. I'll tell you what I don't understand...and it somewhat parallels all of the anti gay threads. It sounds to me as if SD is in a marriage that she finds to be simply the best that she could ask for. IN the marriage she sounds as if she is madly in love with him and he, with her. However, what I don't understand is that if there is so much love in one's heart, how is there room for so much hatred for children. SD has never said she hates children. She says she hates the way parents raise children today, and make them the center of the universe often at the expense of the marital relationship. I may not agree with SD's methods, but I do agree with her on this point. I'm not suggesting that they should want children, I just don't understand how people can hate children and call them names and attack adults for having them,etc. I also hear a lot of anger in many of SD's posts- kind of attacking some posters for this and that. If the marriage is incredibly wonderful, why the anger and the hatred? I don't understand it and perhaps SD can explain it. It's funny but when I first encountered SD I admit I thought she was striving for some sort of internet persona, like Ms Poopie Pantz. You know... this person can't be real? It's somebody having fun with us, or posing as an art form to make her point, intended to shock you to catch your attention. What I really didn't understand was how SD attacked the OP for not letting her husband smoke in the house with a child. She found that to be wrong. How can keeping second hand smoke away from a child with undeveloped lungs be something to attack a person for? The people who are in the wrong are those who allow people, ANYONE, for smoking near their fetus, baby or child. With all of the literature available today SD, this isssue is not an issue of a wife being a *****. She is actually being a good mother. At least in this regard. I guess I'd have to go re-read that part of the thread. My own impression was that the OP had virtually chased her husband off the property, and wouldn't let him smoke even outdoors. See, that is why I think it is worth going to the trouble to followup over-the-top responses like SD's. THe OP says nothing of the sort. I don't even see how it could make that impression unless you are already primed to blame the wife for marital dissatisfaction (as SD seems to be). But SD responded as if it did, thus _creating_ the impression it said stuff like that. (I believe she has since corrected that impression and stated that he can smoke in his workshop). I had a similar reaction as SD in that I thought that policy was a bit extreme. It seemed there could be a reasonable compromise. I'd personally not suggest he smoke inside around the child, but what's the harm in smoking out on the porch, away from the child's lungs? Also I do agree that women can be ridiculous at times, overly protective about their kids, to the extent of excluding their husbands completely from the routine care. It is true that this can happen. I've seen women (and really I haven't seen the symmetric phenonenon, though I'm sure it is _possible_) complain about how their husband doesn't do enough. But everytime he does do something, they are unhappy with how it is done, thus undercutting any motivation he might have to get more involved.

My DH was very astute. I was guilty of this. He simply said "You can tell me
to do something. You can tell me HOW to do something. You cannot tell me
both." He happened to finish it up with something along the lines of "like
it or lump it." Communication. It is a beautiful thing.
I see this particularly with SAHMs with respect to child-rearing. (Of course there are also plenty of women - probably most, who don't do that.) We shoot ourselves in the foot that way. When I was a SAHM, it never ceased to amaze me how many women would complain endlessly that dad was no help, but then when I'd watch as dad offered help, mom would snatch the baby away and scold dad that he was all thumbs and wasn't doing it "the right way" (meaning "my" way). Yes, I see this too.

<SNIP>
You know what, as harsh as SD is, she is being honest. Kids, as wonderful as they are, can be a pain in the neck, too. Show me a parent who never once, not even for a fleeting second, had fantasies about duct-taping and Nyquiling their misbehaving kid into a coma, and I'll show you a liar. :0 I love my kids to death, would never do such a thing, but they have had their moments ...

Wow. I have never had the urge to so much as smack my kids. OK, one is only
5 months old, and a 5 month old cannot do mnuch to be irritating. I think
that if you DO have such urges, it is entirely possible that you have a lack
of understanding of how a child works. I mean, finding a stream crossing
your hiking path can be pretty iritating if you had not planned for it. But
no one ever wants to strike or harm the stream. A child does not do things
on purpose to be iritating. They are just kids.

<SNIP>

"Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c2jjhk$1u4si9$1@ID-123442.news.uni-berlin.de... Doug Anderson wrote: "Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> writes: The worst I've ever wanted to do (and done) with mine is put a shut door and the length of the house between us for a few minutes and wished for a 12 hours holiday. Well, I've never exactly thought about it. But when our first was on her third month of sleeping one hour out of every three, nursing for one hour out of every three, and crying for one hour out of every three (guess which of those non-sleep periods my wife had her and guess which one I had her in) I did think about whether I should just chuck her out the window. Yes, I was always grateful that I possessed the inbuilt pacifier rather
than my husband! But even in those times (mercifully few for each of ours) I only ever
wanted them to be someone else's responsibility so I could walk away. My eldest child wasn't a bad sleeper but when he was awake he needed to be upright
and moving until he was about 4 months old and able to roll himself around.
That was pretty hard to deal with physically because he was a big baby. And I have to say, it made child abuse (while not any less terrible) more comprehensible to me. I mean we may have had an unusually grumpy baby, but we had lots of resources compared to many people and were _still_ at the end of our rope. Sleep deprivation is a literally maddening thing to experience. One of my ideas of hell would be to be a single parent of colicky twins.... Tai

Luckily for me, I have no recollection of my sleep deprivation period with
my first. And further luckily for me, I never had one with my second.

S

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0403060548.7debd50e@posting.google.c om... "Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote in message
news:<6v-dncISD40bdNXdRVn-sw@telcove.net>... 1) Regarding the smoking. I hear what you're saying and understand where you're coming from, but he is an adult and you need to respect he can make his own decisions (as stupid as they may be). Strive to learn how to "agree to disagree" on this issue. Strike a loving compromise for now: no smoking in the house or around your daughter, but out on the back porch okay. Refrain from giving him dirty looks when he smokes. Take the pressure off of him to stop smoking for you and your daughter, and it may be easier for him to quit because he wants to - not because you want him to. I agree with every single thing you say. EXCEPT THIS. Leave smoking off
the change table because second hand smoke is awfully bad for little lungs. I'm confused. What damage to little lungs can be caused by smoking outside on the porch?

None. Did the OP say anything about not allowing smoke anywhere on the
property?
I agree that parents shouldn't smoke around their children. But I suggested a compromise, that he could at least smoke out on the porch and when the child is not around.

No argument from me.
Personally, I think the OP would do better if she strikes such a compromise with her hubby, and just lets this issue drop for now. They have more than enough on their plate to deal with as it is. As for the example he's setting, a 2 year old will simply not have any memory of daddy smoking (assuming he quits before she starts forming such long-term childhood memories). Concentrate on the other issues first, and the smoking issue may end up taking care of itself.

Not to mention the reality is, you simply cannot MAKE, or even encourage too
much, someone who is not ready to quit. It comes from within.
Wait until the child enters kindergarten and comes home in tears because she was teased by the other kids because her daddy smelled funny. That'll do more to guilt the guy into quitting than anything. jen

"Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote in message
news:MJGdnffK7MbceNDdRVn-jA@telcove.net... <SNIP> A child does not do things on purpose to be iritating. They are just kids. <SNIP>

While I'm not into the whole argument, I just have to say, as a step-parent,
that this is BS. Children are quite capable of doing something on purpose
*just* to be irritating!! Doesn't mean you should duct tape them and feed
them nyquill, of course.

Cheryl

"WhansaMi" <whansami@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040309064656.01740.00001148@mb-m22.aol.com...Yes, I was always grateful that I possessed the inbuilt pacifier rather
thanmy husband! Yep. Me too. I nursed for... well, let's just say a long time (I'm sure
the exact time would send some folks in here into heart failure!). My ex
called it "baby valium". ;-)

Heh, I used my god-given meal factory for quite a while, because DS would
wake up 3-4 times a night to feed
(in a good night) and just the thought of getting up and fixing bottles was
a great incentive to do so.
(yes, I´m lazy)

One day, I looked at my son through my bleary, sleep-deprived eyes and I saw
a huge, healthy and very thriving toddler and
thought: he doesn´t look like he´s going to starve anytime soon, he´s got a
great set of razor-sharp teeth, I think he´s going to be ok now.

So everytime he woke up the next nights, I offered him water. 7 days later
he started sleeping through the night.

If I´d only realized sooner, that this was only a habit for him!...

But, I *did* lose 40 pregnancy pounds and then some, in the process, so I
forgave him. :)

Sioban

Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<vbu10yol6y.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu>... "Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> writes: shinypenny wrote: You know what, as harsh as SD is, she is being honest. Kids, as wonderful as they are, can be a pain in the neck, too. Show me a parent who never once, not even for a fleeting second, had fantasies about duct-taping and Nyquiling their misbehaving kid into a coma, and I'll show you a liar. :0 I love my kids to death, would never do such a thing, but they have had their moments ... No, I've never fantasised about harming my children. Never. The worst I've ever wanted to do (and done) with mine is put a shut door and the length of the house between us for a few minutes and wished for a 12 hours holiday. Well, I've never exactly thought about it. But when our first was on her third month of sleeping one hour out of every three, nursing for one hour out of every three, and crying for one hour out of every three (guess which of those non-sleep periods my wife had her and guess which one I had her in) I did think about whether I should just chuck her out the window. And I have to say, it made child abuse (while not any less terrible) more comprehensible to me. I mean we may have had an unusually grumpy baby, but we had lots of resources compared to many people and were _still_ at the end of our rope.

Well, I'm glad somebody else understands somewhat.

My oldest was a very colicky baby, and also struggled with severe and
repeated ear infections. She didn't sleep longer than 2 hours straight
until she was 9 months old, when we Ferberized her out of desparation
because #2 was on the way. Imagine going 9 months never getting more
than 2 hours sleep at a shot. Exh's job relocated when she was less
than 3 months, and she and I didn't follow for several months so I was
left on my own. Then he traveled weekdays so I was left on my own a
lot even after we moved to join him.

I do remember one night - she must've been about 2-3 months old. I
couldn't get her to stop crying and I was probably delusional from the
lack of sleep. I was walking her back and forth in the hall, which had
an open 2-story stairwell. I had this sudden urge to toss her down the
stairs. Completely scared the sh*t out of me - I am not a violent
person by any standard. I brought her into the bedroom, woke exh up,
handed her over, and went downstairs and locked myself in the laundry
room for an hour and cried and cried. Exh eventually found me and
handed the crying baby back over to me and said, "Do something." I
guess I did do something.... I really don't remember much about those
9 months. It's all one big delirious blur.

Then there was another time when she was in the toddler stage where
they keep wanting to touch the electrical outlets. Yeah, we had most
of them covered but there was one outlet that had the t.v. and stereo
plugged into it, and she kept trying to pull out the plugs. I was very
patient for a long time, for weeks, kept saying no and gently pulling
her away, giving her something else to catch her attention, etc. Exh's
opinion was I should just slap her hand or spank her bototm and put an
end to it... he thought I was being too indulgent with her... and that
a slap or spank never hurt a kid and was good for them. He had been
frequently spanked as a kid and he thought it was the only way to
learn.

I was horrified with his suggestion. But then one day when she reached
for the plugs for the umpteenth time, and I slapped her little wrist
away. And man, did it feel GOOD. That totally and completely freaked
me out, that it would feel good to slap her hand. I have never laid a
hand on my kids since. The idea freaks me out. I know other parents
who believe in this sort of punishment, but I just can't see how they
can manage to keep their anger in control and not let a little spank
turn into a harder spank or series of spanks. I think this sort of
thing makes the parent feel better - lets them unleash their
frustration - but does little to teach the child anything.

My younger daughter, OTOH, slept through the night from day 1 and was
a very easy, peaceful baby. That was when I finally figured out why
all the other mothers seemed so much more in control and not as
overwhelmed as I was! LOL! (Of course I figure she's going to turn out
to be the more trying one when she reaches adolescence... )

jen

"Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> writes:
<SNIP> You know what, as harsh as SD is, she is being honest. Kids, as wonderful as they are, can be a pain in the neck, too. Show me a parent who never once, not even for a fleeting second, had fantasies about duct-taping and Nyquiling their misbehaving kid into a coma, and I'll show you a liar. :0 I love my kids to death, would never do such a thing, but they have had their moments ... Wow. I have never had the urge to so much as smack my kids. OK, one is only 5 months old, and a 5 month old cannot do mnuch to be irritating. I think that if you DO have such urges, it is entirely possible that you have a lack of understanding of how a child works. I mean, finding a stream crossing your hiking path can be pretty iritating if you had not planned for it. But no one ever wants to strike or harm the stream. A child does not do things on purpose to be iritating. They are just kids.

How old are your kids? I can tell you from experience, (some) 9 year
olds do things on purpose just to be irritating! (Some don't too.
I've had one of each.)

More to the point, unlike say, streams, children _do_ have free will,
and although one can't expect the same level of judgement from a child
as from an adult, children do make choices, some good, some bad. (I'm
not talking about 5 month olds here.)

"Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> writes:
"Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c2jjhk$1u4si9$1@ID-123442.news.uni-berlin.de... Doug Anderson wrote: "Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> writes:>> The worst I've ever wanted to do (and done) with mine is put a shut> door and the length of the house between us for a few minutes and> wished for a 12 hours holiday. Well, I've never exactly thought about it. But when our first was on her third month of sleeping one hour out of every three, nursing for one hour out of every three, and crying for one hour out of every three (guess which of those non-sleep periods my wife had her and guess which one I had her in) I did think about whether I should just chuck her out the window. Yes, I was always grateful that I possessed the inbuilt pacifier rather than my husband! But even in those times (mercifully few for each of ours) I only ever wanted them to be someone else's responsibility so I could walk away. My eldest child wasn't a bad sleeper but when he was awake he needed to be upright and moving until he was about 4 months old and able to roll himself around. That was pretty hard to deal with physically because he was a big baby. And I have to say, it made child abuse (while not any less terrible) more comprehensible to me. I mean we may have had an unusually grumpy baby, but we had lots of resources compared to many people and were _still_ at the end of our rope. Sleep deprivation is a literally maddening thing to experience. One of my ideas of hell would be to be a single parent of colicky twins.... Tai Luckily for me, I have no recollection of my sleep deprivation period with my first. And further luckily for me, I never had one with my second.

Sleep deprivation interferes with formation of long-term memories. I
think this is natures way of ensuring the possibility of having more
than one child!

shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) writes:
Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<vbu10yol6y.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu>... "Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> writes: shinypenny wrote: > > You know what, as harsh as SD is, she is being honest. Kids, as > wonderful as they are, can be a pain in the neck, too. Show me a > parent who never once, not even for a fleeting second, had fantasies > about duct-taping and Nyquiling their misbehaving kid into a coma, and > I'll show you a liar. :0 I love my kids to death, would never do such > a thing, but they have had their moments ... No, I've never fantasised about harming my children. Never. The worst I've ever wanted to do (and done) with mine is put a shut door and the length of the house between us for a few minutes and wished for a 12 hours holiday. Well, I've never exactly thought about it. But when our first was on her third month of sleeping one hour out of every three, nursing for one hour out of every three, and crying for one hour out of every three (guess which of those non-sleep periods my wife had her and guess which one I had her in) I did think about whether I should just chuck her out the window. And I have to say, it made child abuse (while not any less terrible) more comprehensible to me. I mean we may have had an unusually grumpy baby, but we had lots of resources compared to many people and were _still_ at the end of our rope. Well, I'm glad somebody else understands somewhat. My oldest was a very colicky baby, and also struggled with severe and repeated ear infections. She didn't sleep longer than 2 hours straight until she was 9 months old, when we Ferberized her out of desparation because #2 was on the way. Imagine going 9 months never getting more than 2 hours sleep at a shot. Exh's job relocated when she was less than 3 months, and she and I didn't follow for several months so I was left on my own. Then he traveled weekdays so I was left on my own a lot even after we moved to join him. I do remember one night - she must've been about 2-3 months old. I couldn't get her to stop crying and I was probably delusional from the lack of sleep. I was walking her back and forth in the hall, which had an open 2-story stairwell. I had this sudden urge to toss her down the stairs. Completely scared the sh*t out of me - I am not a violent person by any standard. I brought her into the bedroom, woke exh up, handed her over, and went downstairs and locked myself in the laundry room for an hour and cried and cried. Exh eventually found me and handed the crying baby back over to me and said, "Do something." I guess I did do something.... I really don't remember much about those 9 months. It's all one big delirious blur. Then there was another time when she was in the toddler stage where they keep wanting to touch the electrical outlets. Yeah, we had most of them covered but there was one outlet that had the t.v. and stereo plugged into it, and she kept trying to pull out the plugs. I was very patient for a long time, for weeks, kept saying no and gently pulling her away, giving her something else to catch her attention, etc. Exh's opinion was I should just slap her hand or spank her bototm and put an end to it... he thought I was being too indulgent with her... and that a slap or spank never hurt a kid and was good for them. He had been frequently spanked as a kid and he thought it was the only way to learn. I was horrified with his suggestion. But then one day when she reached for the plugs for the umpteenth time, and I slapped her little wrist away. And man, did it feel GOOD. That totally and completely freaked me out, that it would feel good to slap her hand. I have never laid a hand on my kids since. The idea freaks me out. I know other parents who believe in this sort of punishment, but I just can't see how they can manage to keep their anger in control and not let a little spank turn into a harder spank or series of spanks. I think this sort of thing makes the parent feel better - lets them unleash their frustration - but does little to teach the child anything.

I'm not one of those who think a little spank is a big deal. The
problem I have is that as someone who isn't in the habit of spanking,
I'm most likely to get the urge to do this when I'm angry at my child.
This is the _wrong_ situation to spank them in.

For example in the situation you describe, I don't feel like it is bad
parenting to spank your child's hand to teach her that you are dead
serious about her staying away from the plugs. Especially if you are
doing it as a thought-out thing. (And especially if it is such a rare
event that it will really teach her to take notice.) The problem is
when you are doing it out of frustration it isn't necessarily well
thought-out, and it could be easier to lose control.
My younger daughter, OTOH, slept through the night from day 1 and was a very easy, peaceful baby.

We have two. Both of them were colicky infants and slept incredibly
badly (and incredibly little) for their first 4 months. My wife at
one point wanted three. She changed her mind!

"Doug Anderson" wrote:
Sleep deprivation interferes with formation of long-term memories. I think this is natures way of ensuring the possibility of having more than one child!

Well, this could certainly be true, I don´t seem to remember a lot from the
first 17 months of my sons life. :)
One memory does stick out though. I had just given birth and finished
receiving mulitple stitches (that felt even worst than
the birth it self), when I turned around to my midwife and a birth-attendant
and said: "I will never, ever have another baby."

I love my DS more than life it self, but I still feel the same 3 years
later.

Sioban

Tai <tainuiti@yahoo.com> wrote:

(snip)
Double click the message to get it into a window of its own; Message; Block Sender Tai (now making sure I haven't just blocked Emma Anne!)

I would be *so* offended!

Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote:
Well, I've never exactly thought about it. But when our first was on her third month of sleeping one hour out of every three, nursing for one hour out of every three, and crying for one hour out of every three (guess which of those non-sleep periods my wife had her and guess which one I had her in) I did think about whether I should just chuck her out the window.

I remember telling DH that I was gong to put DD on the porch with a
"Free Baby" sign. He said "OK." :-) But duct tape and Nyquil would
not have been appealing even then. I wanted a *break* not to hurt my
child. I think an urge to throw your child out the window is the same
thing. It would hurt if you did it of course, but the *urge* is to have
a break.

Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote:
I was horrified with his suggestion. But then one day when she reached for the plugs for the umpteenth time, and I slapped her little wrist away. And man, did it feel GOOD. That totally and completely freaked me out, that it would feel good to slap her hand. I have never laid a hand on my kids since. The idea freaks me out. I know other parents who believe in this sort of punishment, but I just can't see how they can manage to keep their anger in control and not let a little spank turn into a harder spank or series of spanks. I think this sort of thing makes the parent feel better - lets them unleash their frustration - but does little to teach the child anything. I'm not one of those who think a little spank is a big deal. The problem I have is that as someone who isn't in the habit of spanking, I'm most likely to get the urge to do this when I'm angry at my child. This is the _wrong_ situation to spank them in.

I also don't think very infrequent spankings are probably harmful. We
didn't do it because I don't think our children would benefit. They are
both the type you have to reason and negotiate with if you don't want to
be at loggerheads all the time. But if I had the kind of kid who
responded to having her wrist slapped by not messing with the outlet
anymore, it doesn't seem like a bad thing.

"Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote in message news:<MJGdnffK7MbceNDdRVn-jA@telcove.net>... <SNIP> You know what, as harsh as SD is, she is being honest. Kids, as wonderful as they are, can be a pain in the neck, too. Show me a parent who never once, not even for a fleeting second, had fantasies about duct-taping and Nyquiling their misbehaving kid into a coma, and I'll show you a liar. :0 I love my kids to death, would never do such a thing, but they have had their moments ... Wow. I have never had the urge to so much as smack my kids. OK, one is only 5 months old, and a 5 month old cannot do mnuch to be irritating. I think that if you DO have such urges, it is entirely possible that you have a lack of understanding of how a child works. I mean, finding a stream crossing your hiking path can be pretty iritating if you had not planned for it. But no one ever wants to strike or harm the stream. A child does not do things on purpose to be iritating. They are just kids. <SNIP>

Well then you're just more of a saint and a better mother and human
being than I could ever be.

Seriously, I really hated all this "holier-than-thou" mother crap when
I was a new mom. It made me feel completely and totally inadequate and
like there was something wrong with me because I got frustrated
hearing a baby scream for 10 hours straight.

For the record, as I said elsewhere, I only once ever slapped my
daughter's wrist and that appalled me. My kids are now 9 and 11 and
surely I did *something* right despite my occasional, fleeting
murderous fantasies. They turned out just fine.

Anyway, to clarify there is a big difference between an "urge" and a
"fantasy." An urge is something that comes over you and you may not be
able to easily control - it's an impulse. A fantasy, OTOH, is more
like a pasttime you play around with in your mind as a way to defuse
the tension. For example, to cope with your frustration over a
screaming baby, you might imagine your hubby coming home and you
saying, "Honey, I found YET ANOTHER use for duct tape!" and that
fantasy in your mind makes you laugh and lightens the tension.

In a similar vein my ex and I joke around a lot that we'd like to put
a chastity belt on our budding adolescent and lock her in her room
until she's well past 18. That surely doesn't mean we'd ever actually
do that - it's just a way of laughing about our own feelings of total
inadequacy.

jen

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0403091128.4abc05a3@posting.google.c om... Seriously, I really hated all this "holier-than-thou" mother crap when I was a new mom. It made me feel completely and totally inadequate and like there was something wrong with me because I got frustrated hearing a baby scream for 10 hours straight.

That sounds like the time my wife brought our older son into the
pediatrician at age 4or 5 for a routine checkup. We were both pretty
stressed out -- her more than me because she had him all day, but I did
take over in the evening. She was apparently a little more harried looking
than normal and vented something -- and the pediatrician said that he'd just
commented to somebody else in his office about how he'd never seen new
parents of a hyperactive child handling themselves so well. She responded
in some way indicating her astonishment, perhaps just saying,
"Hyperactive?!!!!" The doctors reponse -- "oh, didn't you know?"

(He wasn't bad enough to need medication -- but it was recommended he be
given caffeine.)

Ted

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:I0n3c.160272$4o.206461@attbi_s52... "Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> writes: "Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c2jjhk$1u4si9$1@ID-123442.news.uni-berlin.de... Doug Anderson wrote: > "Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> writes: >> >> The worst I've ever wanted to do (and done) with mine is put a shut >> door and the length of the house between us for a few minutes and >> wished for a 12 hours holiday. > > Well, I've never exactly thought about it. But when our first was
on > her third month of sleeping one hour out of every three, nursing for > one hour out of every three, and crying for one hour out of every > three (guess which of those non-sleep periods my wife had her and > guess which one I had her in) I did think about whether I should
just > chuck her out the window. Yes, I was always grateful that I possessed the inbuilt pacifier
rather than my husband! But even in those times (mercifully few for each of ours) I only ever wanted them to be someone else's responsibility so I could walk away. My
eldest child wasn't a bad sleeper but when he was awake he needed to be
upright and moving until he was about 4 months old and able to roll himself
around. That was pretty hard to deal with physically because he was a big baby. > > And I have to say, it made child abuse (while not any less terrible) > more comprehensible to me. I mean we may have had an unusually
grumpy > baby, but we had lots of resources compared to many people and were > _still_ at the end of our rope. Sleep deprivation is a literally maddening thing to experience. One of
my ideas of hell would be to be a single parent of colicky twins.... Tai Luckily for me, I have no recollection of my sleep deprivation period
with my first. And further luckily for me, I never had one with my second. Sleep deprivation interferes with formation of long-term memories. I think this is natures way of ensuring the possibility of having more than one child!

Well it certainly worked in our case.

"Red" <lafount1@pilot.msu.edu> wrote in message
news:c2kroi$g1j$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu... "Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote in message news:MJGdnffK7MbceNDdRVn-jA@telcove.net... <SNIP> A child does not do things on purpose to be iritating. They are just kids. <SNIP> While I'm not into the whole argument, I just have to say, as a
step-parent, that this is BS. Children are quite capable of doing something on purpose *just* to be irritating!! Doesn't mean you should duct tape them and feed them nyquill, of course. Cheryl

My son is only three. So my experience stops there. I don't doubt you are
right as they get older.

S

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:G%m3c.160270$4o.206694@attbi_s52... "Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> writes: <SNIP> You know what, as harsh as SD is, she is being honest. Kids, as wonderful as they are, can be a pain in the neck, too. Show me a parent who never once, not even for a fleeting second, had fantasies about duct-taping and Nyquiling their misbehaving kid into a coma, and I'll show you a liar. :0 I love my kids to death, would never do such a thing, but they have had their moments ... Wow. I have never had the urge to so much as smack my kids. OK, one is
only 5 months old, and a 5 month old cannot do mnuch to be irritating. I
think that if you DO have such urges, it is entirely possible that you have a
lack of understanding of how a child works. I mean, finding a stream crossing your hiking path can be pretty iritating if you had not planned for it.
But no one ever wants to strike or harm the stream. A child does not do
things on purpose to be iritating. They are just kids. How old are your kids? I can tell you from experience, (some) 9 year olds do things on purpose just to be irritating! (Some don't too. I've had one of each.)

Only 3. I think I beleive you. ;)
More to the point, unlike say, streams, children _do_ have free will, and although one can't expect the same level of judgement from a child as from an adult, children do make choices, some good, some bad. (I'm not talking about 5 month olds here.)

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0403091128.4abc05a3@posting.google.c om... "Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote in message
news:<MJGdnffK7MbceNDdRVn-jA@telcove.net>... <SNIP> You know what, as harsh as SD is, she is being honest. Kids, as wonderful as they are, can be a pain in the neck, too. Show me a parent who never once, not even for a fleeting second, had fantasies about duct-taping and Nyquiling their misbehaving kid into a coma, and I'll show you a liar. :0 I love my kids to death, would never do such a thing, but they have had their moments ... Wow. I have never had the urge to so much as smack my kids. OK, one is
only 5 months old, and a 5 month old cannot do mnuch to be irritating. I
think that if you DO have such urges, it is entirely possible that you have a
lack of understanding of how a child works. I mean, finding a stream crossing your hiking path can be pretty iritating if you had not planned for it.
But no one ever wants to strike or harm the stream. A child does not do
things on purpose to be iritating. They are just kids. <SNIP> Well then you're just more of a saint and a better mother and human being than I could ever be.

Please. You said tell me someone who has never wanted to inflict violence on
their kid and I will show you a liar.
Seriously, I really hated all this "holier-than-thou" mother crap when I was a new mom.


And you probably saw it where it wasn't. I was not trying to give you a hard
time.
It made me feel completely and totally inadequate and like there was something wrong with me because I got frustrated hearing a baby scream for 10 hours straight. For the record, as I said elsewhere, I only once ever slapped my daughter's wrist and that appalled me. My kids are now 9 and 11 and surely I did *something* right despite my occasional, fleeting murderous fantasies. They turned out just fine. Anyway, to clarify there is a big difference between an "urge" and a "fantasy." An urge is something that comes over you and you may not be able to easily control - it's an impulse. A fantasy, OTOH, is more like a pasttime you play around with in your mind as a way to defuse the tension. For example, to cope with your frustration over a screaming baby, you might imagine your hubby coming home and you saying, "Honey, I found YET ANOTHER use for duct tape!" and that fantasy in your mind makes you laugh and lightens the tension. In a similar vein my ex and I joke around a lot that we'd like to put a chastity belt on our budding adolescent and lock her in her room until she's well past 18. That surely doesn't mean we'd ever actually do that - it's just a way of laughing about our own feelings of total inadequacy. jen

>> >Yes, I was always grateful that I possessed the inbuilt pacifier ratherthanmy husband! Yep. Me too. I nursed for... well, let's just say a long time (I'm surethe exact time would send some folks in here into heart failure!). My excalled it "baby valium". ;-)Heh, I used my god-given meal factory for quite a while, because DS wouldwake up 3-4 times a night to feed(in a good night) and just the thought of getting up and fixing bottles wasa great incentive to do so.(yes, I´m lazy)One day, I looked at my son through my bleary, sleep-deprived eyes and I sawa huge, healthy and very thriving toddler andthought: he doesn´t look like he´s going to starve anytime soon, he´s got agreat set of razor-sharp teeth, I think he´s going to be ok now.So everytime he woke up the next nights, I offered him water. 7 days laterhe started sleeping through the night.If I´d only realized sooner, that this was only a habit for him!...But, I *did* lose 40 pregnancy pounds and then some, in the process, so Iforgave him. :)Sioban

Well, I didn't plan to nurse past one year, but DS didn't really eat solids
until he was 13 months old. I'd shove it in, and he'd spit it out! Same with
finger foods. I was pretty much his sole means of nourishment until he was
about 15 months old. By that time, I was pretty much sold on the idea of
child-led weaning, so that is what we did! :-)

Sheila

"Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote in message
news:wr-dnQVftPqtvNPdRVn-vw@telcove.net... "Red" <lafount1@pilot.msu.edu> wrote in message news:c2kroi$g1j$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu... "Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote in message news:MJGdnffK7MbceNDdRVn-jA@telcove.net... <SNIP> A child does not do things on purpose to be iritating. They are just kids. <SNIP> While I'm not into the whole argument, I just have to say, as a step-parent, that this is BS. Children are quite capable of doing something on
purpose *just* to be irritating!! Doesn't mean you should duct tape them and
feed them nyquill, of course. Cheryl My son is only three. So my experience stops there. I don't doubt you are right as they get older.

True enough, and even then your child may never be intentionally irritating
to *you*. Being a stepmom is quite different :) (And not always worse...I
rather like my role in that department.)

Cheryl

>Well then you're just more of a saint and a better mother and humanbeing than I could ever be.Seriously, I really hated all this "holier-than-thou" mother crap whenI was a new mom. It made me feel completely and totally inadequate andlike there was something wrong with me because I got frustratedhearing a baby scream for 10 hours straight.

Jen, whoa there. If I remember correctly, what prompted these statements was
your assertion that people who said that they hadn't had fantasies of
Nyquilling or duct taping their kids were liars. Now, that seems rather
inflammatory to me, suggesting that either (a) we have had feelings we say we
haven't or (b) are liars. I don't think it is fair now to be angry because I
am saying that those feelings are not universal, and yes, I really don't like
the idea of being called a liar for saying so.

People respond differently to the stress of becoming a parent, either for the
first time, or the fifth. I'm not saying I've done everything right as a
parent . But what is being discusses here is not something that I ever did,
and it rather chafed me to hear it said like that.

Sheila

Hi Sheila,
it´s true, that most western people feel uncomfortable with the idea of
nursing past the year, but I originate from a
country, where nursing till 2 1/2 to 3 years of age, is quite the norm, so I
was already pretty open minded about
the whole thing.

At 17 months I started wanting my body back (A blasphemy in certain
quarters, I know) and was pretty desperate
for 8 (or even 7 or 6!) hours of undisturbed sleep. I assest my child as
objectively as I could and I realized, that even though,
he could easily keep it up another year, he was a good eater, he was
developing properly, etc. etc. so I went for it.

But I would not critisize a woman for nursing less or longer. Now a days
it´s great thing if it´s done at all!

Sioban


"WhansaMi" wrote in message
news:20040309163104.01908.00001001@mb-m22.aol.com... Well, I didn't plan to nurse past one year, but DS didn't really eat
solids until he was 13 months old. I'd shove it in, and he'd spit it out! Same
with finger foods. I was pretty much his sole means of nourishment until he
was about 15 months old. By that time, I was pretty much sold on the idea of child-led weaning, so that is what we did! :-) Sheila

>Hi Sheila,it´s true, that most western people feel uncomfortable with the idea ofnursing past the year, but I originate from acountry, where nursing till 2 1/2 to 3 years of age, is quite the norm, so Iwas already pretty open minded aboutthe whole thing.

Hehe. I wasn't. I was raised in the deep South, and I am the ONLY one in my
family to ever nurse at all. When my son was about three months, we went to
visit my family and accompanied my father to his church. I sat in the nursery
during the service and, at some point, needed to nurse. After about 4 minutes
an aide came over and suggested that I might want to go in "there" to do "that"
--- "there" was, literally, a broom closet. She explained that some father
might come by to check in on his kid and might actually witness me <gasp>
NURSING... in the NURSERY! ;-)

I politely declined. :-)
At 17 months I started wanting my body back (A blasphemy in certainquarters, I know) and was pretty desperatefor 8 (or even 7 or 6!) hours of undisturbed sleep. I assest my child asobjectively as I could and I realized, that even though,he could easily keep it up another year, he was a good eater, he wasdeveloping properly, etc. etc. so I went for it.But I would not critisize a woman for nursing less or longer. Now a daysit´s great thing if it´s done at all!

I'm a strong advocate of breastfeeding (card carrying member of La Leche
League!), but I try not to foist my opinions on anyone, and I don't even
mention it unless asked.

Initially, it was difficult; as I said, I was pretty much his sole means of
nourishment. I don't think I got more than 3 consecutive hours of sleep for
over three years. However, over time I became pretty proficient at starting
him on the breast during the night and going back to sleep.

Sheila

Sioban

Emma Anne wrote: Tai (now making sure I haven't just blocked Emma Anne!) I would be *so* offended!

Phew! No need for plaintive messages asking if you've changed your ISP
because I can't seeeee yoooou...

Tai

Stephanie Stowe wrote:
Luckily for me, I have no recollection of my sleep deprivation period with my first. And further luckily for me, I never had one with my second.

There are 20 months between my first and second children and I barely
remember any of it. Thank goodness for the photo album and video camera! I
wish I'd kept baby books for them because I've forgotten all but the most
obvious milestones.

They did sleep through the night well before they weer 12 months old,
though, so DS3 was somewhat of a shock to us when he kept waking at least
once in the night until he was well over 2.

Tai

WhansaMi wrote: Yes, I was always grateful that I possessed the inbuilt pacifier rather than my husband! Yep. Me too. I nursed for... well, let's just say a long time (I'm sure the exact time would send some folks in here into heart failure!). My ex called it "baby valium". ;-)

I was never a very good producer and had babies with poor latches so they
were all weaned before they were 12 months old.
However, I did my best and pumped for months when I had to. I can remember
sitting in hospital after I'd had my daughter absolutely distraught because
I couldn't believe I had a worse latcher than the first one!

DS3 still really loves a bottle to go to bed on and I'd still be nursing him
if I could be - some children just love that contact and others give up the
breast without a backward look.

Tai

"nachtigal" <nachtigal@mail2hell.com> wrote in message news:<c2lfke$i2g$04$1@news.t-online.com>... Hi Sheila, it´s true, that most western people feel uncomfortable with the idea of nursing past the year, but I originate from a country, where nursing till 2 1/2 to 3 years of age, is quite the norm, so I was already pretty open minded about the whole thing. At 17 months I started wanting my body back (A blasphemy in certain quarters, I know) and was pretty desperate for 8 (or even 7 or 6!) hours of undisturbed sleep. I assest my child as objectively as I could and I realized, that even though, he could easily keep it up another year, he was a good eater, he was developing properly, etc. etc. so I went for it. But I would not critisize a woman for nursing less or longer. Now a days it´s great thing if it´s done at all! Sioban

I'll enter this one :-) My son was nursed just short of 18 months.
My daughter stopped nursing just short of 2.5 years. It was awesome.
And did I ever get skinny. I wish she still nursed :-) I miss it and
am thrilled that I did it for as long as I did. "WhansaMi" wrote in message news:20040309163104.01908.00001001@mb-m22.aol.com... Well, I didn't plan to nurse past one year, but DS didn't really eat solids until he was 13 months old. I'd shove it in, and he'd spit it out! Same with finger foods. I was pretty much his sole means of nourishment until he was about 15 months old. By that time, I was pretty much sold on the idea of child-led weaning, so that is what we did! :-) Sheila

Caren wrote:
I'll enter this one :-) My son was nursed just short of 18 months. My daughter stopped nursing just short of 2.5 years. It was awesome. And did I ever get skinny. I wish she still nursed :-) I miss it and am thrilled that I did it for as long as I did.

Well done!

I loved nursing mine, too, despite the problems we had.

And I forgot to mention this before but nursing made me gain weight for each
of my children. I think it was all those hours sitting down trying to get
the stuff into them when I could have been out walking.

Tai

>WhansaMi wrote: Yes, I was always grateful that I possessed the inbuilt pacifier rather than my husband! Yep. Me too. I nursed for... well, let's just say a long time (I'm sure the exact time would send some folks in here into heart failure!). My ex called it "baby valium". ;-)I was never a very good producer and had babies with poor latches so theywere all weaned before they were 12 months old.However, I did my best and pumped for months when I had to. I can remembersitting in hospital after I'd had my daughter absolutely distraught becauseI couldn't believe I had a worse latcher than the first one!

I'm sorry you had such difficulties. It can be so frustrating. Did you have
flat or inverted nippled? That can present a situation that makes it hard for
babies to latch on. A coworker of mine just had her fifth child, and bottlefed
all of them until this one, because she couldn't get them to latch on properly.
She started wearing the nipple shields in her 5th month, and things are going
much better this time (the baby is now 4 months).

I, on the other had, had good production. Too good. I could have fed a small
third world country. I used to joke that the president should send be abroad
to famine-stricken areas as a good will ambassador. ;-)
DS3 still really loves a bottle to go to bed on and I'd still be nursing himif I could be - some children just love that contact and others give up thebreast without a backward look.

DS loved "side". (I think he got this by me asking, after he'd gone on for a
while on one, "Do you want the other side?") This was fine for me -- much more
discreet than "I want boobie!!!" as I've heard about others saying!

SheilaTai

Caren wrote:
I'll enter this one :-) My son was nursed just short of 18 months.My daughter stopped nursing just short of 2.5 years.

Still got you beat. ;-)

It was awesome.And did I ever get skinny.

I hate you. You are SOOOOO lucky. ;-) I couldn't lose weight while nursing.

I wish she still nursed :-) I miss it andam thrilled that I did it for as long as I did.

I think the breastfeeding relationship is something very special. I'm glad I
experienced it.

Sheila
"WhansaMi" wrote in message news:20040309163104.01908.00001001@mb-m22.aol.com... Well, I didn't plan to nurse past one year, but DS didn't really eat solids until he was 13 months old. I'd shove it in, and he'd spit it out! Same with finger foods. I was pretty much his sole means of nourishment until he was about 15 months old. By that time, I was pretty much sold on the idea of child-led weaning, so that is what we did! :-) Sheila

WhansaMi wrote:
I'm sorry you had such difficulties. It can be so frustrating. Did you have flat or inverted nippled? That can present a situation that makes it hard for babies to latch on.

No, that wasn't my/our problem. With my first I think it was just that we
were both inexperienced and he was a slow, sleepy feeder. He spent hours on
me and when he hadn't gained weight for two or three weeks when he was 3 - 4
months old I introduced solids and he ate like a starveling!

My daughter was born with such a fat face she couldn't get close enough and
by the time she grew into herself and could latch she wasn't the slightest
bit confused about which nipple she preferred, she liked the faster silicon
one best. She was getting ebm but pumping, as you know, isn't as efficient
as even the laziest li'l sucker.

Roll on 9 years and I had a good latcher but dryish breasts. By three months
I had to supplement with solids and my supply dried up as his diminishing
returns for his efforts meant his returns to my breast also diminished.
DS loved "side". (I think he got this by me asking, after he'd gone on for a while on one, "Do you want the other side?") This was fine for me -- much more discreet than "I want boobie!!!" as I've heard about others saying!

I saw a 4 year old in a clothing shop the other day who was fondling a
padded bra and happily muttering "boobies" to his little sister. Daughter
and I cracked up. I bet he doesn't become a 'leg man'!

Tai

"nachtigal" <nachtigal@mail2hell.com> wrote in message news:<c2lfke$i2g$04$1@news.t-online.com>... Hi Sheila, it´s true, that most western people feel uncomfortable with the idea of nursing past the year, but I originate from a country, where nursing till 2 1/2 to 3 years of age, is quite the norm, so I was already pretty open minded about the whole thing. At 17 months I started wanting my body back (A blasphemy in certain quarters, I know) and was pretty desperate for 8 (or even 7 or 6!) hours of undisturbed sleep. I assest my child as objectively as I could and I realized, that even though, he could easily keep it up another year, he was a good eater, he was developing properly, etc. etc. so I went for it. But I would not critisize a woman for nursing less or longer. Now a days it´s great thing if it´s done at all! Sioban


I nursed both my girls, too. I was all set to nurse them until they
were 2-3 years old (yep, I was a card-carrying La Leche member, too),
but with both of them, there seemed to come a natural point where they
wanted to wean themselves despite what I may have wanted(at 12 months
for one, and around 10 months for the other).

When it came time to nurse, they would push me away and squirm to get
off my lap. Both girls could handle a cup quite well by 9 months
(neither ever took a bottle) and were pretty insistent on wanting to
feed themselves. As for nursing before bed, that was the last to go.
My oldest gave it up a few months after we ferberized her; she learned
how to pacify herself to sleep I guess. The youngest was a
finger-sucker from birth and didn't ever seem to need the breast to
calm herself.

Basically I had two very different nursing experiences. DD#1 would use
the breast to pacify herself and therefore would nurse on and off all
night long, about every 2 hours. She'd fall asleep at the breast. DD#2
OTOH was quite different and would nurse only for food, about every
4-6 hours but then it'd be a marathon nursing session. Once DD#1 was
ferberized and learned how to calm herself, she also adjusted to a 4-6
hour schedule, and then quickly started dropping nursings in favor of
finger foods and her cup, which were much more interesting to her at
that time.

The very last time I nursed DD#1 was the day DD#2 came home from the
hospital. She was 19 months old and had weaned herself several months
prior, but seeing her new baby sister on my lap, she climbed up too
and gave me this sullen look, so I put her on the other side and
nursed them both. I think she just wanted to know that she still
could, and that was enough, because she never asked again.

The weaning was much easier on them than it was on me. :-(

jen

shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) writes:
"nachtigal" <nachtigal@mail2hell.com> wrote in message news:<c2lfke$i2g$04$1@news.t-online.com>... Hi Sheila, it´s true, that most western people feel uncomfortable with the idea of nursing past the year, but I originate from a country, where nursing till 2 1/2 to 3 years of age, is quite the norm, so I was already pretty open minded about the whole thing. At 17 months I started wanting my body back (A blasphemy in certain quarters, I know) and was pretty desperate for 8 (or even 7 or 6!) hours of undisturbed sleep. I assest my child as objectively as I could and I realized, that even though, he could easily keep it up another year, he was a good eater, he was developing properly, etc. etc. so I went for it. But I would not critisize a woman for nursing less or longer. Now a days it´s great thing if it´s done at all! Sioban I nursed both my girls, too. I was all set to nurse them until they were 2-3 years old (yep, I was a card-carrying La Leche member, too), but with both of them, there seemed to come a natural point where they wanted to wean themselves despite what I may have wanted(at 12 months for one, and around 10 months for the other).

Yeah. Our kids were similar. At about a year, they both seemed very
uninterested in nursing, and my wife's attitude was "OK, if you're
done, so am I."
When it came time to nurse, they would push me away and squirm to get off my lap. Both girls could handle a cup quite well by 9 months (neither ever took a bottle) and were pretty insistent on wanting to feed themselves. As for nursing before bed, that was the last to go. My oldest gave it up a few months after we ferberized her; she learned how to pacify herself to sleep I guess. The youngest was a finger-sucker from birth and didn't ever seem to need the breast to calm herself. Basically I had two very different nursing experiences. DD#1 would use the breast to pacify herself and therefore would nurse on and off all night long, about every 2 hours.

My wife would never have been able to tolerate that for very many
weeks at a time. Too little uninterrupted sleep.

Our first child would _wake up_ after nursing! That is she'd wake up,
want to nurse immediately, and then be wide awake afterwards. Crying
loudly when she was little. (So then it would be my turn to take the
little bugger away so my wife could go back to sleep.)
She'd fall asleep at the breast. DD#2 OTOH was quite different and would nurse only for food, about every 4-6 hours but then it'd be a marathon nursing session. Once DD#1 was ferberized and learned how to calm herself, she also adjusted to a 4-6 hour schedule, and then quickly started dropping nursings in favor of finger foods and her cup, which were much more interesting to her at that time. The very last time I nursed DD#1 was the day DD#2 came home from the hospital. She was 19 months old and had weaned herself several months prior, but seeing her new baby sister on my lap, she climbed up too and gave me this sullen look, so I put her on the other side and nursed them both. I think she just wanted to know that she still could, and that was enough, because she never asked again.

That's pretty funny!

Our first was also 19 months old when our son was born. She was very
excited and very happy, but there was this little gleam in her eye
that kept making me wonder how long it would be before she hit her
little brother over the head with the telephone! (Thankfully, it took
until he was mobile enough to get into her stuff.)

"Tai" wrote: I saw a 4 year old in a clothing shop the other day who was fondling a padded bra and happily muttering "boobies" to his little sister. Daughter and I cracked up. I bet he doesn't become a 'leg man'! Tai

I had a real laugh out of this one. Even though DS weaned fairly easily, I
think he developed a mild
boob-fascination. Sometimes he points at his former food booth and
depending on his mood he´ll shriek
"Boobies!" (or even worst, say it in a sly ton that goes beyond his 3
years.)

Oh, brother...

Sioban

"shinypenny" wrote:

<snip>
The very last time I nursed DD#1 was the day DD#2 came home from the hospital. She was 19 months old and had weaned herself several months prior, but seeing her new baby sister on my lap, she climbed up too and gave me this sullen look, so I put her on the other side and nursed them both. I think she just wanted to know that she still could, and that was enough, because she never asked again.

Awwww. She probably had a small fit of jealousy seeing another baby at what
she probably considered
her rightful place, so you handled that very well!

Reading all these posts on nursing has been a great trip down memory lane
for me.

Due to a difficult childhood I have trouble with true intimacy, have always
kept everybody at an arms length
So emotionaly, it wasn´t easy for me to nurse. Thus I always told my self,
I´m doing this because it´s
healthy for my baby and because I would have the perfect meal for him at any
time of the day with
nearly no work at all, etc. That made it somehow acceptable to me.

But then I watched my son grow into this sturdy, warmed-hearted and very
intelligent toddler and I was doubly glad I did it.
He might have turned out that way anyhow, but I highly doubt it.
The weaning was much easier on them than it was on me. :-(

The official downside was, that from now on, I would always worry if he´s
eating right and always be on the lookout for a nutricious
meal this picky eater would want to eat. (has a great appetite, but a what
a stubborn kid, if it´s not what he wants, he´ll rather go without.)

But weaning also signaled to me that my baby wasn´t a "real baby" anymore.
Now *that* made me sad.

Sioban
jen

"nachtigal" <nachtigal@mail2hell.com> wrote in message news:<c2o50k$c2a$00$1@news.t-online.com>...
Reading all these posts on nursing has been a great trip down memory lane for me. Due to a difficult childhood I have trouble with true intimacy, have always kept everybody at an arms length So emotionaly, it wasn´t easy for me to nurse. Thus I always told my self, I´m doing this because it´s healthy for my baby and because I would have the perfect meal for him at any time of the day with nearly no work at all, etc. That made it somehow acceptable to me.

I decided to nurse because I wanted to be the Uber-Mom. LOL!
Seriously, I was probably pretty militantly obnoxious back then. For
me being the ideal, perfect mother was an all-consuming passion. I
made my own baby food, too. I had a stack of books on child-rearing. I
wanted to do everything perfectly. I think that's why God gave me a
colicky baby right off the bat: to challenge my hubris. heh heh...
right from the start everything went oh so much differently than I had
carefully planned!!

.... natural childbirth? Forget it! I had a pinhole rupture and it took
them three days of early labor to figure it out; by then, they had no
choice but to hook me up to all the instruments and induce me. I had a
weird reaction to the petocin - contractions lasting up to 5 minutes
and each time baby's heartbeat went dangerously low. So they insisted
on the epidural because they didn't think anyone could handle such
long contractions, and besides they figured I was going to be an
emergency C-section. I didn't get that C-section afterall... after 2
hours of unproductive pushing, my MIL (a maternity nurse) jumped on
the table when the doctor was on his way to set up the C section and
applied fundal pressure to push her out.

We got her home and nursing didn't go well at all. Darn it hurt. My ex
and his mother ganged up on me and insisted I give her a bottle so she
wouldn't starve. I was adamant that I could get the nursing to work,
but didn't know what I was doing. Luckily, they had a nurse on call to
walk me through everything over the phone. I couldn't have done it
without her support.

Oh well... despite our rocky start, DD11 has turned out quite well. I
am very proud of her and glad kids are resilient enough that you can
make mistakes and they'll still turn out okay. DD9 was so much
easier... such a different temperament. But I have a hunch she's going
to be the bigger challenge when she hits adolescence. It's the
easygoing ones that tend to get away with murder when their parents
aren't looking!!!

jen

"Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote in message news:<U7SdnWaA284tvNPdRVn-vg@telcove.net>... "shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c8cb5319.0403091128.4abc05a3@posting.google.c om... "Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote in message news:<MJGdnffK7MbceNDdRVn-jA@telcove.net>... <SNIP> > You know what, as harsh as SD is, she is being honest. Kids, as > wonderful as they are, can be a pain in the neck, too. Show me a > parent who never once, not even for a fleeting second, had fantasies > about duct-taping and Nyquiling their misbehaving kid into a coma, and > I'll show you a liar. :0 I love my kids to death, would never do such > a thing, but they have had their moments ... > Wow. I have never had the urge to so much as smack my kids. OK, one is only 5 months old, and a 5 month old cannot do mnuch to be irritating. I think that if you DO have such urges, it is entirely possible that you have a lack of understanding of how a child works. I mean, finding a stream crossing your hiking path can be pretty iritating if you had not planned for it. But no one ever wants to strike or harm the stream. A child does not do things on purpose to be iritating. They are just kids. <SNIP> Well then you're just more of a saint and a better mother and human being than I could ever be. Please. You said tell me someone who has never wanted to inflict violence on their kid and I will show you a liar. Seriously, I really hated all this "holier-than-thou" mother crap when I was a new mom. And you probably saw it where it wasn't. I was not trying to give you a hard time.

Hoo boy... I must've been having a bad day....

My apologies, Stephanie, for my outburst. The irony of the whole thing
is that I often act like the holier-than-thou mother myself.

Sorry to you, too, Sheila.

jen

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0403110604.5906b52@posting.google.co m... "Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote in message
news:<U7SdnWaA284tvNPdRVn-vg@telcove.net>... "shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c8cb5319.0403091128.4abc05a3@posting.google.c om... "Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote in message news:<MJGdnffK7MbceNDdRVn-jA@telcove.net>... > <SNIP> > > > You know what, as harsh as SD is, she is being honest. Kids, as > > wonderful as they are, can be a pain in the neck, too. Show me a > > parent who never once, not even for a fleeting second, had
fantasies > > about duct-taping and Nyquiling their misbehaving kid into a coma,
and > > I'll show you a liar. :0 I love my kids to death, would never do
such > > a thing, but they have had their moments ... > > > > Wow. I have never had the urge to so much as smack my kids. OK, one
is only > 5 months old, and a 5 month old cannot do mnuch to be irritating. I think > that if you DO have such urges, it is entirely possible that you
have a lack > of understanding of how a child works. I mean, finding a stream
crossing > your hiking path can be pretty iritating if you had not planned for
it. But > no one ever wants to strike or harm the stream. A child does not do things > on purpose to be iritating. They are just kids. > > <SNIP> Well then you're just more of a saint and a better mother and human being than I could ever be. Please. You said tell me someone who has never wanted to inflict
violence on their kid and I will show you a liar. Seriously, I really hated all this "holier-than-thou" mother crap when I was a new mom. And you probably saw it where it wasn't. I was not trying to give you a
hard time. Hoo boy... I must've been having a bad day.... My apologies, Stephanie, for my outburst. The irony of the whole thing is that I often act like the holier-than-thou mother myself. Sorry to you, too, Sheila. jen

No worries. I was MASSIVELY sensitive to holier than thou stuff when DS was
small. I was SO uptight and insecure with new motherhood, I would
alternately come across as holier than thou myself while trying to convince
myself that what I was doing was right. Luckily I have been able to take a
figurative chill pill since then and DS and DD are doing just fine.

S

>Hoo boy... I must've been having a bad day....My apologies, Stephanie, for my outburst. The irony of the whole thingis that I often act like the holier-than-thou mother myself.Sorry to you, too, Sheila.jen

Jen, just found this buried among the posts.

Not a problem, BTW. :-)

Sheila