It is generally agreed that both spouses need to "work" on a marriage,
although there may be a lot of different ideas of what that means.

While there's a good chance she'd say differently, I feel like my wife has
no interest in working on our marriage. (Particpating in an hour-and-a-half
of therapy once every two or three weeks does not, in my mind, constitute
"working" on it.) I wonder it that is in part because since she believes
divorce is not an option that she doesn't feel she has to? (Another part of
course is that since I'm the one who decided there were problems with it and
that I appear to be the one with communications problems then it's up to me
to fix the problems.)

Ted

Seeker wrote: It is generally agreed that both spouses need to "work" on a marriage, although there may be a lot of different ideas of what that means.

I don't believe that in all marriages both spouses need to 'work' on
their marriage. Some marriages don't need 'work'. In some cases, there's
little or nothing that one spouse can do and it's the other spouse that
must do the 'work' all on their own.
While there's a good chance she'd say differently, I feel like my wife has no interest in working on our marriage.

And, really, keeping your own feelings out of this as much as you can,
Ted, why should she? Your marriage has apparently been working just
fine for her. I know, I know, the answer is 'But if I'm unhappy,
shouldn't she want to fix the things that are making me unhappy?'
I can't say as I believe she is obligated to. If my husband were to
come to me tomorrow and say that he's unhappy because he's discovered
that the kind of marriage we've had for the past 5 years is not making
him happy and he wants a kind of marriage that is completely different,
one that *I* don't particularly feel the need to have, I don't know
that *I* would have much interest in working to change things in the
way that he wanted. I would have to have an interest on my own to have
it in that particular way.
(Particpating in an hour-and-a-half of therapy once every two or three weeks does not, in my mind, constitute "working" on it.)

What would you consider 'working' on it on her part then?
I wonder it that is in part because since she believes divorce is not an option that she doesn't feel she has to?

Could be. That's a pretty negative assessment though.
(Another part of course is that since I'm the one who decided there wereproblems with it and that I appear to be the one with communicationsproblems then it's up to me to fix the problems.)

Let me ask you this, Ted. How much of a chance do you think you would
have of solving a problem when no one has explained to you exactly what
the problem is, when no one has explained to you what they think is the
solution to that problem, and when no one has explained to you exactly
what they think *you* need to do for the problem to be solved? I've been
there, Ted, and, let me tell you, it's a horrible place to be. To know
that your husband isn't happy, there's something wrong with your mar-
riage, but you don't have a clue as to what he expects out of you or
how to fix it or even if it can be fixed. And it's even worse when all
the information you're being given is vague and open to interpretation
and our differing opinions as to what will fill our spouse's wants/
needs.

I don't know if your wife believes it's up to you to fix the problems
but *I* believe that it's up to you to define the problems for her
and to define the solutions that *you* want to those problems. Then
it's up to her to decide if she wants to work towards those solutions
or not.

Tracey

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 13:03:45 -0600, Seeker
<tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote: It is generally agreed that both spouses need to "work" on a marriage, although there may be a lot of different ideas of what that means. While there's a good chance she'd say differently, I feel like my wife has no interest in working on our marriage. (Particpating in an hour-and-a-half of therapy once every two or three weeks does not, in my mind, constitute "working" on it.) I wonder it that is in part because since she believes divorce is not an option that she doesn't feel she has to? (Another part of course is that since I'm the one who decided there were problems with it and that I appear to be the one with communications problems then it's up to me to fix the problems.)

One person can't fix a marriage.

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c1g76k$1hu7qp$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de...
It is generally agreed that both spouses need to "work" on a marriage,

it is?

Marriage shouldn't be "work" - at least not consistently (I can see a major
crisis that comes up which requires one spouse 'working' harder at it).

If your marriage requires consistent work, you are probably with the wrong
person.

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 02:29:40 GMT, "JWB" <awayspam00973@noplace.com>
wrote:
"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in messagenews:c1g76k$1hu7qp$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... It is generally agreed that both spouses need to "work" on a marriage,it is?Marriage shouldn't be "work" - at least not consistently (I can see a majorcrisis that comes up which requires one spouse 'working' harder at it).If your marriage requires consistent work, you are probably with the wrongperson.

Yup I am a firm believer that a relationship should be *easy*! If it
isn't easy you really are with the wrong person. BTW I think this is
just plain ole common sense.

"Rauni" <ladywolf@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:pn6o305q5um9puk97nnahrsu3ejq695bgl@4ax.com... On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 02:29:40 GMT, "JWB" <awayspam00973@noplace.com> wrote:"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in messagenews:c1g76k$1hu7qp$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... It is generally agreed that both spouses need to "work" on a marriage,it is?Marriage shouldn't be "work" - at least not consistently (I can see a
majorcrisis that comes up which requires one spouse 'working' harder at it).If your marriage requires consistent work, you are probably with the
wrongperson. Yup I am a firm believer that a relationship should be *easy*! If it isn't easy you really are with the wrong person. BTW I think this is just plain ole common sense.

to be honest, I think people say things like that to make themselves feel
better about their situation. I know I did with my first wife.

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c1g76k$1hu7qp$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... It is generally agreed that both spouses need to "work" on a marriage, although there may be a lot of different ideas of what that means. While there's a good chance she'd say differently, I feel like my wife has no interest in working on our marriage. (Particpating in an
hour-and-a-half of therapy once every two or three weeks does not, in my mind, constitute "working" on it.) I wonder it that is in part because since she believes divorce is not an option that she doesn't feel she has to?

Maybe she feels she IS working on it. You've intimated before that the
therapy is a MUCH bigger deal for her than it is for you. You might not be
appreciating the level of "work on the marriage" that she perceives this to
be.

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c1g76k$1hu7qp$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... It is generally agreed that both spouses need to "work" on a marriage, although there may be a lot of different ideas of what that means. While there's a good chance she'd say differently, I feel like my wife has no interest in working on our marriage. (Particpating in an
hour-and-a-half of therapy once every two or three weeks does not, in my mind, constitute "working" on it.) I wonder it that is in part because since she believes divorce is not an option that she doesn't feel she has to? (Another part
of course is that since I'm the one who decided there were problems with it
and that I appear to be the one with communications problems then it's up to
me to fix the problems.) Ted

You are in your house and sitting quietly in your bedroom.
Your wife is comfortable in another room watching TV.
You begin to smell smoke and then see flames. You wife still
is unaware of the problem.

Do you call out to her or wait for her to discover the fire herself?
She doesn't want to stop watching the program she's interested in
but there are compelling reasons why she should become interested
in what you are finding happening near you.

Putting out the fire is another part of the discovery. She may not want
to but the alternative is to watch everything she has become attached
to over many years burn to the ground.

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 04:10:45 GMT, "JWB" <awayspam00973@noplace.com>
wrote:
"Rauni" <ladywolf@newsguy.com> wrote in messagenews:pn6o305q5um9puk97nnahrsu3ejq695bgl@4ax .com... On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 02:29:40 GMT, "JWB" <awayspam00973@noplace.com> wrote:"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in messagenews:c1g76k$1hu7qp$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de...> It is generally agreed that both spouses need to "work" on a marriage,it is?Marriage shouldn't be "work" - at least not consistently (I can see amajorcrisis that comes up which requires one spouse 'working' harder at it).If your marriage requires consistent work, you are probably with thewrongperson. Yup I am a firm believer that a relationship should be *easy*! If it isn't easy you really are with the wrong person. BTW I think this is just plain ole common sense.to be honest, I think people say things like that to make themselves feelbetter about their situation. I know I did with my first wife.
Oh I agree but then one hears "professionals" saying this stuff!

"Joy" <joydoesntlikespam@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:103o9dhe9sebd63@corp.supernews.com... Maybe she feels she IS working on it. You've intimated before that the therapy is a MUCH bigger deal for her than it is for you. You might not
be appreciating the level of "work on the marriage" that she perceives this
to be.
Good point -- even if she's just going defensively (because she doesn't
trust what the therapist and I might do in her absence) I agree it is a lot
of work for her.

Ted

urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:bw2%b.4507$f61.2627@nwrdny02.gnilink.net...
You are in your house and sitting quietly in your bedroom. Your wife is comfortable in another room watching TV. You begin to smell smoke and then see flames. You wife still is unaware of the problem. Do you call out to her or wait for her to discover the fire herself? She doesn't want to stop watching the program she's interested in but there are compelling reasons why she should become interested in what you are finding happening near you. Putting out the fire is another part of the discovery. She may not want to but the alternative is to watch everything she has become attached to over many years burn to the ground.
I have a hunch there are those here who said I started the fire and it's my
job to put it out.

Nice analogy.

Ted

"Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message
news:slrnc3nd17.3t2.tony@home.cigardiary.com... One person can't fix a marriage.

Hmmm... seeing as we disagree on so many other points I guess I should take
this as assurance that one person *can* fix a marriage!

Ted

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 10:19:34 -0600, Seeker
<tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote: "Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:slrnc3nd17.3t2.tony@home.cigardiary.com... One person can't fix a marriage. Hmmm... seeing as we disagree on so many other points I guess I should take this as assurance that one person *can* fix a marriage!

I'm the one in a happy and fulfilled marriage. *Shrug*. Your choice.

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote:
On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 13:03:45 -0600, Seeker <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote: It is generally agreed that both spouses need to "work" on a marriage, although there may be a lot of different ideas of what that means. While there's a good chance she'd say differently, I feel like my wife has no interest in working on our marriage. (Particpating in an hour-and-a-half of therapy once every two or three weeks does not, in my mind, constitute "working" on it.) I wonder it that is in part because since she believes divorce is not an option that she doesn't feel she has to? (Another part of course is that since I'm the one who decided there were problems with it and that I appear to be the one with communications problems then it's up to me to fix the problems.) One person can't fix a marriage.

I partly agree and partly not. One person can't fix a marriage, but one
person can change himself and his role in the marriage, and the marriage
will necessarily change. This may or may not save it.

This is best described in a book called "The Dance of Anger" which I
highly recommend.

JWB <awayspam00973@noplace.com> wrote:
"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c1g76k$1hu7qp$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... It is generally agreed that both spouses need to "work" on a marriage, it is? Marriage shouldn't be "work" - at least not consistently (I can see a major crisis that comes up which requires one spouse 'working' harder at it). If your marriage requires consistent work, you are probably with the wrong person.

I'm guessing that nearly all long term marriages require work at certain
points. But yeah, most of the time marriage is supposed to be a
pleasure, something that adds to your life, not another chore.

"Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message
news:slrnc3pm0t.6bn.tony@home.cigardiary.com... I'm the one in a happy and fulfilled marriage. *Shrug*. Your choice.
Your marriage may be happy but you certainly don't come across as being
happy.

Ted

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c1ihr3$1ii3ah$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:bw2%b.4507$f61.2627@nwrdny02.gnilink.net... You are in your house and sitting quietly in your bedroom. Your wife is comfortable in another room watching TV. You begin to smell smoke and then see flames. You wife still is unaware of the problem. Do you call out to her or wait for her to discover the fire herself? She doesn't want to stop watching the program she's interested in but there are compelling reasons why she should become interested in what you are finding happening near you. Putting out the fire is another part of the discovery. She may not want to but the alternative is to watch everything she has become attached to over many years burn to the ground. I have a hunch there are those here who said I started the fire and it's
my job to put it out. Nice analogy. Ted

It may very well be that you started the fire. It is not uncommon for
people to foment a crisis in order to confront their emotions. It is
not a conscious decision.

To use our analogy again, if there was no fire, would YOU be unhappy?
The fact is that you can't stop the process. The process makes us
confront ourselves. We face the end in one way or another.

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c1ihup$18rl9g$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:slrnc3nd17.3t2.tony@home.cigardiary.com... One person can't fix a marriage. Hmmm... seeing as we disagree on so many other points I guess I should
take this as assurance that one person *can* fix a marriage! Ted
If your marriage is perfect except for a detail or two, like you snore.
You can get treated for snoring and then you have a perfect marriage again.
OTOH, someone does have to point out that you are snoring and annoying them.

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c1im2n$1jeqk9$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:slrnc3pm0t.6bn.tony@home.cigardiary.com... I'm the one in a happy and fulfilled marriage. *Shrug*. Your choice. Your marriage may be happy but you certainly don't come across as being happy. Ted

I noticed that too. Maybe he is still trying to convince himself.

Seeker wrote:
Quite valid criticisms and observations, Tracey. Our therapist keeps pointing out that one of things that is getting in our way is, paradoxically, that we care *too* much about each other.

Well, I, for one, disagree. I see very little caring in your posts.
What I see from you is not 'caring too much for your wife' but,
instead, fear of turning your bland and unsatisfying marriage that
you don't particularly want but you can live with because your wife
doesn't particularly question or actively oppose your outside activ-
ities into one in which your wife is suspicious and/or actively
opposed to your outside activities.

You remind me of my husband during his 'I don't know which way to
go' period. He had convinced himself that his inability/unwillingness
to commit to one course of action or another was because he loved
both me and the OW so much, he couldn't bear to hurt either one of
us. He completely ignored the fact that his actions/inactions were
not the actions/inactions of someone who loved someone else, they
were the actions of someone who cared about his own feelings more
than he cared about what either of us were going through.

<snip> Is it fair for me to spell out the problems, what I think someof the solutions are, knowing I can't present her the evidence for why I believe they are the solutions?

IMO, Ted, you're being so unfair to your wife about so many other
things that I don't think this is an 'honest' fear or concern on
your part. I think it's just more justification on your part to
not be honest with your wife.

Tracey

mbjq@earthlink.net (Emma Anne) writes:
Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote: On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 13:03:45 -0600, Seeker <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote: It is generally agreed that both spouses need to "work" on a marriage, although there may be a lot of different ideas of what that means. While there's a good chance she'd say differently, I feel like my wife has no interest in working on our marriage. (Particpating in an hour-and-a-half of therapy once every two or three weeks does not, in my mind, constitute "working" on it.) I wonder it that is in part because since she believes divorce is not an option that she doesn't feel she has to? (Another part of course is that since I'm the one who decided there were problems with it and that I appear to be the one with communications problems then it's up to me to fix the problems.) One person can't fix a marriage. I partly agree and partly not. One person can't fix a marriage, but one person can change himself and his role in the marriage, and the marriage will necessarily change. This may or may not save it.

Yes, I agree with this. If one person changes, it can shift the
dynamic considerably. This may or may not help the marriage, but the
other partner will almos certainly react to the change in _some_ way.

Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com> writes:
Seeker wrote: Quite valid criticisms and observations, Tracey. Our therapist keeps pointing out that one of things that is getting in our way is, paradoxically, that we care *too* much about each other. Well, I, for one, disagree. I see very little caring in your posts. What I see from you is not 'caring too much for your wife' but, instead, fear of turning your bland and unsatisfying marriage that you don't particularly want but you can live with because your wife doesn't particularly question or actively oppose your outside activ- ities into one in which your wife is suspicious and/or actively opposed to your outside activities. You remind me of my husband during his 'I don't know which way to go' period. He had convinced himself that his inability/unwillingness to commit to one course of action or another was because he loved both me and the OW so much, he couldn't bear to hurt either one of us. He completely ignored the fact that his actions/inactions were not the actions/inactions of someone who loved someone else, they were the actions of someone who cared about his own feelings more than he cared about what either of us were going through.

This makes me think of the time honored question: "Can't you really
love two people?" (I think the answer is "yes," but people who have
to ask that question are rarely demonstrating that ability.)
<snip> Is it fair for me to spell out the problems, what I think someof the solutions are, knowing I can't present her the evidence for why I believe they are the solutions? IMO, Ted, you're being so unfair to your wife about so many other things that I don't think this is an 'honest' fear or concern on your part. I think it's just more justification on your part to not be honest with your wife. Tracey

"Emma Anne" <mbjq@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1g9pj51.1w52zz6bhdvisN%mbjq@earthlink.net... JWB <awayspam00973@noplace.com> wrote: "Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c1g76k$1hu7qp$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... It is generally agreed that both spouses need to "work" on a marriage, it is? Marriage shouldn't be "work" - at least not consistently (I can see a
major crisis that comes up which requires one spouse 'working' harder at it). If your marriage requires consistent work, you are probably with the
wrong person. I'm guessing that nearly all long term marriages require work at certain points. But yeah, most of the time marriage is supposed to be a pleasure, something that adds to your life, not another chore.

Yea, I could see death, job loss, illness, and other "big" things cause one
(or both) partners to fall into a funk, and require "work", but for everyday
life? No. Not for me, anyway.

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c1im2n$1jeqk9$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:slrnc3pm0t.6bn.tony@home.cigardiary.com... I'm the one in a happy and fulfilled marriage. *Shrug*. Your choice. Your marriage may be happy but you certainly don't come across as being happy.

Have to say I agree with you, Ted.

Doug Anderson wrote:
This makes me think of the time honored question: "Can't you really love two people?" (I think the answer is "yes," but people who have to ask that question are rarely demonstrating that ability.)

This is probably not where you were going with this, Doug, but
recent posts and situations presented here have had me 'living
in the past' a bit. Bringing back things that happened and remem-
bering discussions that my husband and I had.

When I read this, I was vividly reminded of one series of conver-
sations with my husband about when and why he had told the OW he
loved her. Actually, it wasn't about the 'when and why' so much
as I just *couldn't* understand what he thought he was going to
accomplish by it. And I just *couldn't* understand how, if he
loved me as he said he did, how he could do something so hurtful
to me as to tell another woman that he loved her. The lack of
self-awareness, the lack of or inability to look at a course of
action and not be able to project what the consequences could/
would be was terrifying to me.

It's difficult to explain but I found that the fact that my
husband had feelings for another woman, although hurtful, wasn't
the hardest part for me to get past. The hardest part to get past
for me was the actions that he took out of those feelings.

Tracey

Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com> writes:
Doug Anderson wrote: This makes me think of the time honored question: "Can't you really love two people?" (I think the answer is "yes," but people who have to ask that question are rarely demonstrating that ability.) This is probably not where you were going with this, Doug, but recent posts and situations presented here have had me 'living in the past' a bit. Bringing back things that happened and remem- bering discussions that my husband and I had. When I read this, I was vividly reminded of one series of conver- sations with my husband about when and why he had told the OW he loved her. Actually, it wasn't about the 'when and why' so much as I just *couldn't* understand what he thought he was going to accomplish by it. And I just *couldn't* understand how, if he loved me as he said he did, how he could do something so hurtful to me as to tell another woman that he loved her. The lack of self-awareness, the lack of or inability to look at a course of action and not be able to project what the consequences could/ would be was terrifying to me.

It sounds terrifying. But when you describe these vents, there does
seem to be a real lack of self-awareness. Think about how lucky your
husband is to have been able to become more self-aware through the
process of your marital trials!
It's difficult to explain but I found that the fact that my husband had feelings for another woman, although hurtful, wasn't the hardest part for me to get past. The hardest part to get past for me was the actions that he took out of those feelings.

That makes sense to me. In general, I tend to judge people by what
they do, not by what they say. _Saying_ that you love two people
isn't very convincing if your behavior toward them isn't loving.

And if your behavior toward them _is_ loving, then you don't even
need to ask the question "can someone love two people."

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3u1xojowm5.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu... Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com> writes: Seeker wrote: Quite valid criticisms and observations, Tracey. Our therapist keeps pointing out that one of things that is getting in our way is, paradoxically, that we care *too* much about each other. Well, I, for one, disagree. I see very little caring in your posts. What I see from you is not 'caring too much for your wife' but, instead, fear of turning your bland and unsatisfying marriage that you don't particularly want but you can live with because your wife doesn't particularly question or actively oppose your outside activ- ities into one in which your wife is suspicious and/or actively opposed to your outside activities. You remind me of my husband during his 'I don't know which way to go' period. He had convinced himself that his inability/unwillingness to commit to one course of action or another was because he loved both me and the OW so much, he couldn't bear to hurt either one of us. He completely ignored the fact that his actions/inactions were not the actions/inactions of someone who loved someone else, they were the actions of someone who cared about his own feelings more than he cared about what either of us were going through. This makes me think of the time honored question: "Can't you really love two people?" (I think the answer is "yes," but people who have to ask that question are rarely demonstrating that ability.)

I think you can love more than one person at the same time. I think
those people need to be able to do that too, at least in the case of adult
man to woman type of love. I think love is a capability. We don't really
know what we are capable of until we try. Most people don't try because
of the risk.



<snip> Is it fair for me to spell out the problems, what I think someof the solutions are, knowing I can't present her the evidence for why I believe they are the solutions? IMO, Ted, you're being so unfair to your wife about so many other things that I don't think this is an 'honest' fear or concern on your part. I think it's just more justification on your part to not be honest with your wife. Tracey

"Tracey" <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote in message
news:403CEC6E.6080504@aol.com... Doug Anderson wrote: This makes me think of the time honored question: "Can't you really love two people?" (I think the answer is "yes," but people who have to ask that question are rarely demonstrating that ability.) This is probably not where you were going with this, Doug, but recent posts and situations presented here have had me 'living in the past' a bit. Bringing back things that happened and remem- bering discussions that my husband and I had. When I read this, I was vividly reminded of one series of conver- sations with my husband about when and why he had told the OW he loved her. Actually, it wasn't about the 'when and why' so much as I just *couldn't* understand what he thought he was going to accomplish by it. And I just *couldn't* understand how, if he loved me as he said he did, how he could do something so hurtful to me as to tell another woman that he loved her. The lack of self-awareness, the lack of or inability to look at a course of action and not be able to project what the consequences could/ would be was terrifying to me. It's difficult to explain but I found that the fact that my husband had feelings for another woman, although hurtful, wasn't the hardest part for me to get past. The hardest part to get past for me was the actions that he took out of those feelings. Tracey

There was a movie I saw long ago. "A Man and A Woman". In it
the man is a race car driver. The woman is a widow. Her husband
had been a stuntman for the movies. He was killed doing a stunt.
As a result, she had been sensitized to the dangerous to life
elements of her new boyfriends occupation.

He loved what he did and was one of the best in the world at it.
He loved her too.

If she asked, should he stop racing and become a pharmacist?
If he loved her wouldn't he give up his other love without being asked?

Love puts us in strange places and at strange times. Life does
not care what the answer is, it only wants the experience.

<SNIP> > >If your marriage requires consistent work, you are probably with thewrong >person. > Yup I am a firm believer that a relationship should be *easy*! If it isn't easy you really are with the wrong person. BTW I think this is just plain ole common sense.to be honest, I think people say things like that to make themselves feelbetter about their situation. I know I did with my first wife. Oh I agree but then one hears "professionals" saying this stuff!

Hi
What do you mean a relationship should be easy?
WHAT IF : Some one got injured or became ill? And one spouse was left to
care for the other the kids the work the chores etc. is that easy?
What if the illness was a gradual slide into depression?
What if the illness/depression was caused by a traumatic childhood?
Should you just dump your partner and look for something easy?

Cheers ROG

"ROGUE" <rognospamlessspam@eyeohell.ie> wrote in message
news:c1j4s3$8hd$1@kermit.esat.net... <SNIP>> >> >If your marriage requires consistent work, you are probably with thewrong> >person.> >>> Yup I am a firm believer that a relationship should be *easy*! If it> isn't easy you really are with the wrong person. BTW I think this is> just plain ole common sense.to be honest, I think people say things like that to make themselves
feelbetter about their situation. I know I did with my first wife. Oh I agree but then one hears "professionals" saying this stuff! Hi What do you mean a relationship should be easy? WHAT IF : Some one got injured or became ill? And one spouse was left to care for the other the kids the work the chores etc. is that easy? What if the illness was a gradual slide into depression? What if the illness/depression was caused by a traumatic childhood? Should you just dump your partner and look for something easy?

somewhere in the thread, you missed the part where I said that there are
circumstances that could make one partner have to "work" harder.

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:W89%b.4806$ax2.2331@nwrdny03.gnilink.net... Did you see the Jack Nicolson movie "About Schmidt"?
Not yet. It is one our therapist recommended we see in one of our very
early sessions. (from the trailers I suspect we'll find it disturbing, in
different ways.) But we did pick up a copy of the DVD and will get around
to it sometime. Soon, I hope.

Ted

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c1l54p$1jqso1$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:W89%b.4806$ax2.2331@nwrdny03.gnilink.net... Did you see the Jack Nicolson movie "About Schmidt"? Not yet. It is one our therapist recommended we see in one of our very early sessions. (from the trailers I suspect we'll find it disturbing, in different ways.) But we did pick up a copy of the DVD and will get around to it sometime. Soon, I hope.

That movie might hit close to home for you, Ted.

"JWB" <awayspam07973@no.com> wrote in message
news:PVo%b.2680$1e3.904533@twister.nyc.rr.com... "Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c1l54p$1jqso1$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:W89%b.4806$ax2.2331@nwrdny03.gnilink.net... Did you see the Jack Nicolson movie "About Schmidt"? Not yet. It is one our therapist recommended we see in one of our very early sessions. (from the trailers I suspect we'll find it disturbing,
in different ways.) But we did pick up a copy of the DVD and will get
around to it sometime. Soon, I hope. That movie might hit close to home for you, Ted.
I think that's the point!

Ted

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c1l54p$1jqso1$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:W89%b.4806$ax2.2331@nwrdny03.gnilink.net... Did you see the Jack Nicolson movie "About Schmidt"? Not yet. It is one our therapist recommended we see in one of our very early sessions. (from the trailers I suspect we'll find it disturbing, in different ways.) But we did pick up a copy of the DVD and will get around to it sometime. Soon, I hope. Ted

I think it is an important movie. Do you converse with your wife on subjects
that you might see in movies? It can be an opportunity to use the material
in the movie to address issues that directly concern the both of you while
you each
still maintain a safe distance. After all, it is the discussion of
characters on the screen
and not you.

See if you relate to the male character pouring his feelings into his letter
writing.

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c1l7c3$1kcef1$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "JWB" <awayspam07973@no.com> wrote in message news:PVo%b.2680$1e3.904533@twister.nyc.rr.com... "Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c1l54p$1jqso1$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:W89%b.4806$ax2.2331@nwrdny03.gnilink.net... > > Did you see the Jack Nicolson movie "About Schmidt"? > Not yet. It is one our therapist recommended we see in one of our
very early sessions. (from the trailers I suspect we'll find it
disturbing, in different ways.) But we did pick up a copy of the DVD and will get around to it sometime. Soon, I hope. That movie might hit close to home for you, Ted. I think that's the point! Ted

Last night we watched "The Hours". It was a very good movie if somewhat
a "downer". Estelle and I make a date of it. We come home from work and
do our chores then have dinner in front of the big screen and watch a good
movie. Often we have wine and cuddle under a blanket. We have come to
enjoy the experience more than going out to a movie.

"The Hours" is another movie you might want to see for it's potential
conversation
making.

urf wrote: "Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c1l54p$1jqso1$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:W89%b.4806$ax2.2331@nwrdny03.gnilink.net... Did you see the Jack Nicolson movie "About Schmidt"? Not yet. It is one our therapist recommended we see in one of our very early sessions. (from the trailers I suspect we'll find it disturbing, in different ways.) But we did pick up a copy of the DVD and will get around to it sometime. Soon, I hope. Ted I think it is an important movie. Do you converse with your wife on subjects that you might see ...

I think he would rather converse with us - n'est pas? (Which is part of the
problem, I think).

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:qOq%b.5424$f61.1217@nwrdny02.gnilink.net... Last night we watched "The Hours". It was a very good movie if somewhat a "downer". Estelle and I make a date of it. We come home from work and do our chores then have dinner in front of the big screen and watch a good movie. Often we have wine and cuddle under a blanket. We have come to enjoy the experience more than going out to a movie. "The Hours" is another movie you might want to see for it's potential conversation making.
I have some idea what "About Schmidt" is about. What's "The Hours" about?

Ted

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> writes:
"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c1l7c3$1kcef1$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "JWB" <awayspam07973@no.com> wrote in message news:PVo%b.2680$1e3.904533@twister.nyc.rr.com... "Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c1l54p$1jqso1$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... > "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message > news:W89%b.4806$ax2.2331@nwrdny03.gnilink.net... > > > > Did you see the Jack Nicolson movie "About Schmidt"? > > > Not yet. It is one our therapist recommended we see in one of our very > early sessions. (from the trailers I suspect we'll find it disturbing, in > different ways.) But we did pick up a copy of the DVD and will get around > to it sometime. Soon, I hope. That movie might hit close to home for you, Ted. I think that's the point! Ted Last night we watched "The Hours". It was a very good movie if somewhat a "downer".

I liked it too, but didn't really find it a downer, Of course i went
in knowing how it 'ended.'
Estelle and I make a date of it. We come home from work and do our chores then have dinner in front of the big screen and watch a good movie. Often we have wine and cuddle under a blanket. We have come to enjoy the experience more than going out to a movie.

Yes, I could imagine doing this someday. When our kids are older. As
it is, we're lucky to watch a movie per month.

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 13:03:45 -0600 in article <c1g76k$1hu7qp$1@ID-
123438.news.uni-berlin.de>, tedds212removethis@yahoo.com spoke thusly... It is generally agreed that both spouses need to "work" on a marriage, although there may be a lot of different ideas of what that means. While there's a good chance she'd say differently, I feel like my wife has no interest in working on our marriage. (Particpating in an hour-and-a-half of therapy once every two or three weeks does not, in my mind, constitute "working" on it.)
I agree with you.
I wonder it that is in part because since she believes divorce is not an option that she doesn't feel she has to? (Another part of course is that since I'm the one who decided there were problems with it and that I appear to be the one with communications problems then it's up to me to fix the problems.)
Perhaps she is trying to blame you for a problem that affects 2 people. Or she
is insensitive to your needs and the needs of the relationship.

That's about all I can say.
--
Say no to fixed width tables. They look terrible in all browsers.

"Bill in Co." <Lost In Time, but surly@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:KOq%b.10389$aT1.6204@newsread1.news.pas.earth link.net... urf wrote: "Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c1l54p$1jqso1$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:W89%b.4806$ax2.2331@nwrdny03.gnilink.net...>> Did you see the Jack Nicolson movie "About Schmidt"?> Not yet. It is one our therapist recommended we see in one of our very early sessions. (from the trailers I suspect we'll find it disturbing,
in different ways.) But we did pick up a copy of the DVD and will get
around to it sometime. Soon, I hope. Ted I think it is an important movie. Do you converse with your wife on
subjects that you might see ... I think he would rather converse with us - n'est pas? (Which is part of
the problem, I think).

I understand that he writes to us here. It IS a substitute for
expressing himself directly to her and others. Still I think Ted is making
great progress. He is willing to explore ideas about what his next steps
should be. He takes steps but he takes them his way. It takes a long
time to get there but he is headed in the right direction.

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c1le8d$1i550p$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:qOq%b.5424$f61.1217@nwrdny02.gnilink.net... Last night we watched "The Hours". It was a very good movie if somewhat a "downer". Estelle and I make a date of it. We come home from work and do our chores then have dinner in front of the big screen and watch a
good movie. Often we have wine and cuddle under a blanket. We have come to enjoy the experience more than going out to a movie. "The Hours" is another movie you might want to see for it's potential conversation making. I have some idea what "About Schmidt" is about. What's "The Hours"
about? Ted

Women, depression, hints of lesbianism and mostly it's about
what other people feel. It is another hard movie to watch so
don't let me throw you off schedule. Do the Schmidt one first.

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c1im2n$1jeqk9$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:slrnc3pm0t.6bn.tony@home.cigardiary.com... I'm the one in a happy and fulfilled marriage. *Shrug*. Your choice. Your marriage may be happy but you certainly don't come across as being happy. Ted

So it ISN'T just me who has thought this.