My nine year old daughter was sitting and doing a puzzle while I was
doing kitchen stuff. She was talking randomly about a lot of
subjects. Her last topic was, "Sometimes I wish that I was famous so
that everybody liked me and wanted to be with me, you know someone
like George Washington, definitely not George Bush, but George
Washington." I didn't waste our time talking about Bush, but we did
have a nice conversation about how you can be whatever you choose to
be and how important it is to not allow others to impose their
stereotyping behaviors, their values, nor to allow others to assume
to know what is best for you.

Before long she'll be in ASM giving pointers to some grown ups :-)

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0402231730.6f570547@posting.google.c om... My nine year old daughter was sitting and doing a puzzle while I was doing kitchen stuff. She was talking randomly about a lot of subjects. Her last topic was, "Sometimes I wish that I was famous so that everybody liked me and wanted to be with me, you know someone like George Washington, definitely not George Bush, but George Washington." I didn't waste our time talking about Bush, but we did have a nice conversation about how you can be whatever you choose to be and how important it is to not allow others to impose their stereotyping behaviors, their values, nor to allow others to assume to know what is best for you.

does she not like Bush because she understands politics, or because you
don't like him?

"JWB" <awayspam2973@noplace.com> writes:
"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message news:3754f0b3.0402231730.6f570547@posting.google.c om... My nine year old daughter was sitting and doing a puzzle while I was doing kitchen stuff. She was talking randomly about a lot of subjects. Her last topic was, "Sometimes I wish that I was famous so that everybody liked me and wanted to be with me, you know someone like George Washington, definitely not George Bush, but George Washington." I didn't waste our time talking about Bush, but we did have a nice conversation about how you can be whatever you choose to be and how important it is to not allow others to impose their stereotyping behaviors, their values, nor to allow others to assume to know what is best for you. does she not like Bush because she understands politics, or because you don't like him?

Don't know about Caren's daughter. My 8 and 10 year olds don't like
Bush because they believe he invaded Iraq on false pretexts. This
isn't something they learned from me (at least not directly).

They don't really understand what a fiasco he is domestically though.

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:g5A_b.49000$4o.68940@attbi_s52... "JWB" <awayspam2973@noplace.com> writes: "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message news:3754f0b3.0402231730.6f570547@posting.google.c om... My nine year old daughter was sitting and doing a puzzle while I was doing kitchen stuff. She was talking randomly about a lot of subjects. Her last topic was, "Sometimes I wish that I was famous so that everybody liked me and wanted to be with me, you know someone like George Washington, definitely not George Bush, but George Washington." I didn't waste our time talking about Bush, but we did have a nice conversation about how you can be whatever you choose to be and how important it is to not allow others to impose their stereotyping behaviors, their values, nor to allow others to assume to know what is best for you. does she not like Bush because she understands politics, or because you don't like him? Don't know about Caren's daughter. My 8 and 10 year olds don't like Bush because they believe he invaded Iraq on false pretexts. This isn't something they learned from me (at least not directly). They don't really understand what a fiasco he is domestically though.

I agree.

My point was, obviously, someone else's values are coming through, whether
or not you tell them it's bad or good. I wouldn't expect pre-teens to really
understand politics or to understand exactly why we invaded or whatnot. I
would expect them to emulate what an adult analyzing the situation tells
them.

"JWB" <awayspam00973@noplace.com> writes:
"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:g5A_b.49000$4o.68940@attbi_s52... "JWB" <awayspam2973@noplace.com> writes: "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message news:3754f0b3.0402231730.6f570547@posting.google.c om... > My nine year old daughter was sitting and doing a puzzle while I was > doing kitchen stuff. She was talking randomly about a lot of > subjects. Her last topic was, "Sometimes I wish that I was famous so > that everybody liked me and wanted to be with me, you know someone > like George Washington, definitely not George Bush, but George > Washington." I didn't waste our time talking about Bush, but we did > have a nice conversation about how you can be whatever you choose to > be and how important it is to not allow others to impose their > stereotyping behaviors, their values, nor to allow others to assume > to know what is best for you. does she not like Bush because she understands politics, or because you don't like him? Don't know about Caren's daughter. My 8 and 10 year olds don't like Bush because they believe he invaded Iraq on false pretexts. This isn't something they learned from me (at least not directly). They don't really understand what a fiasco he is domestically though. I agree. My point was, obviously, someone else's values are coming through, whether or not you tell them it's bad or good. I wouldn't expect pre-teens to really understand politics or to understand exactly why we invaded or whatnot. I would expect them to emulate what an adult analyzing the situation tells them.

You sell them just a little short. Some things are probably too
complex, but most kids understand that war, and the accompanying
killing are a pretty bad thing. If your kid is old enough to talk,
and old enough to overhear the news, you can expect them to ask
questions like "why are we invading (fill in the blank of the U.S.'s
favorite demon here)?"

And unless you can give them a pretty convincing answer like:

"They invaded us first" or "They say they are going to try to kill us"
they are likely to have strong doubts about whether invading is a good
thing.

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:PdA_b.49024$4o.68711@attbi_s52... "JWB" <awayspam00973@noplace.com> writes: "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:g5A_b.49000$4o.68940@attbi_s52... "JWB" <awayspam2973@noplace.com> writes: > "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message > news:3754f0b3.0402231730.6f570547@posting.google.c om... > > My nine year old daughter was sitting and doing a puzzle while I
was > > doing kitchen stuff. She was talking randomly about a lot of > > subjects. Her last topic was, "Sometimes I wish that I was famous
so > > that everybody liked me and wanted to be with me, you know someone > > like George Washington, definitely not George Bush, but George > > Washington." I didn't waste our time talking about Bush, but we
did > > have a nice conversation about how you can be whatever you choose
to > > be and how important it is to not allow others to impose their > > stereotyping behaviors, their values, nor to allow others to
assume > > to know what is best for you. > > does she not like Bush because she understands politics, or because
you > don't like him? Don't know about Caren's daughter. My 8 and 10 year olds don't like Bush because they believe he invaded Iraq on false pretexts. This isn't something they learned from me (at least not directly). They don't really understand what a fiasco he is domestically though. I agree. My point was, obviously, someone else's values are coming through,
whether or not you tell them it's bad or good. I wouldn't expect pre-teens to
really understand politics or to understand exactly why we invaded or whatnot.
I would expect them to emulate what an adult analyzing the situation tells them. You sell them just a little short. Some things are probably too complex, but most kids understand that war, and the accompanying killing are a pretty bad thing. If your kid is old enough to talk, and old enough to overhear the news, you can expect them to ask questions like "why are we invading (fill in the blank of the U.S.'s favorite demon here)?"

Yes, I agree with that.

And unless you can give them a pretty convincing answer like: "They invaded us first" or "They say they are going to try to kill us" they are likely to have strong doubts about whether invading is a good thing.

This I doubt. Of course, if you say "gee, i don't know why", ok, I'd think
the kids could surmise "not good"

"JWB" <awayspam00973@noplace.com> writes:
"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:PdA_b.49024$4o.68711@attbi_s52... "JWB" <awayspam00973@noplace.com> writes: "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:g5A_b.49000$4o.68940@attbi_s52... > "JWB" <awayspam2973@noplace.com> writes: > > > "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message > > news:3754f0b3.0402231730.6f570547@posting.google.c om... > > > My nine year old daughter was sitting and doing a puzzle while I was > > > doing kitchen stuff. She was talking randomly about a lot of > > > subjects. Her last topic was, "Sometimes I wish that I was famous so > > > that everybody liked me and wanted to be with me, you know someone > > > like George Washington, definitely not George Bush, but George > > > Washington." I didn't waste our time talking about Bush, but we did > > > have a nice conversation about how you can be whatever you choose to > > > be and how important it is to not allow others to impose their > > > stereotyping behaviors, their values, nor to allow others to assume > > > to know what is best for you. > > > > does she not like Bush because she understands politics, or because you > > don't like him? > > Don't know about Caren's daughter. My 8 and 10 year olds don't like > Bush because they believe he invaded Iraq on false pretexts. This > isn't something they learned from me (at least not directly). > > They don't really understand what a fiasco he is domestically though. I agree. My point was, obviously, someone else's values are coming through, whether or not you tell them it's bad or good. I wouldn't expect pre-teens to really understand politics or to understand exactly why we invaded or whatnot. I would expect them to emulate what an adult analyzing the situation tells them. You sell them just a little short. Some things are probably too complex, but most kids understand that war, and the accompanying killing are a pretty bad thing. If your kid is old enough to talk, and old enough to overhear the news, you can expect them to ask questions like "why are we invading (fill in the blank of the U.S.'s favorite demon here)?" Yes, I agree with that. And unless you can give them a pretty convincing answer like: "They invaded us first" or "They say they are going to try to kill us" they are likely to have strong doubts about whether invading is a good thing. This I doubt. Of course, if you say "gee, i don't know why", ok, I'd think the kids could surmise "not good"

I'm speaking from experience here. Both as "kid" during the Vietnam days
and as parent during the U.S.'s most recent foreign adventure.

But it may depend on the kids. My kids are (surprise, surprise)
somewhat opinionated. And so was I when I was their age.

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:apA_b.49052$4o.68983@attbi_s52... "JWB" <awayspam00973@noplace.com> writes: "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:PdA_b.49024$4o.68711@attbi_s52... "JWB" <awayspam00973@noplace.com> writes: > "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:g5A_b.49000$4o.68940@attbi_s52... > > "JWB" <awayspam2973@noplace.com> writes: > > > > > "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message > > > news:3754f0b3.0402231730.6f570547@posting.google.c om... > > > > My nine year old daughter was sitting and doing a puzzle while
I was > > > > doing kitchen stuff. She was talking randomly about a lot of > > > > subjects. Her last topic was, "Sometimes I wish that I was
famous so > > > > that everybody liked me and wanted to be with me, you know
someone > > > > like George Washington, definitely not George Bush, but George > > > > Washington." I didn't waste our time talking about Bush, but
we did > > > > have a nice conversation about how you can be whatever you
choose to > > > > be and how important it is to not allow others to impose their > > > > stereotyping behaviors, their values, nor to allow others to assume > > > > to know what is best for you. > > > > > > does she not like Bush because she understands politics, or
because you > > > don't like him? > > > > Don't know about Caren's daughter. My 8 and 10 year olds don't
like > > Bush because they believe he invaded Iraq on false pretexts. This > > isn't something they learned from me (at least not directly). > > > > They don't really understand what a fiasco he is domestically
though. > > I agree. > > My point was, obviously, someone else's values are coming through, whether > or not you tell them it's bad or good. I wouldn't expect pre-teens
to really > understand politics or to understand exactly why we invaded or
whatnot. I > would expect them to emulate what an adult analyzing the situation
tells > them. You sell them just a little short. Some things are probably too complex, but most kids understand that war, and the accompanying killing are a pretty bad thing. If your kid is old enough to talk, and old enough to overhear the news, you can expect them to ask questions like "why are we invading (fill in the blank of the U.S.'s favorite demon here)?" Yes, I agree with that. And unless you can give them a pretty convincing answer like: "They invaded us first" or "They say they are going to try to kill us" they are likely to have strong doubts about whether invading is a good thing. This I doubt. Of course, if you say "gee, i don't know why", ok, I'd
think the kids could surmise "not good" I'm speaking from experience here. Both as "kid" during the Vietnam days and as parent during the U.S.'s most recent foreign adventure. But it may depend on the kids. My kids are (surprise, surprise) somewhat opinionated. And so was I when I was their age.

But do you think your opinions help shape theirs (at this point in their
lives)? I mean, wouldn't they almost *have* to?

I just find it ironic that Caren, who is a well-known Bush hater, has a nine
year old daughter that also doesn't like Bush, all the while telling her
that other's imposing their values isn't good. I just seriously doubt that
with no help at all, Caren's daughter took in all the available info and
made an informed opinion that Bush is not good.

There's nothing wrong with this, mind you. I just found it funny in the
context of what Caren was trying to tell her daughter.

"Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c1ek3c$1hodmp$1@ID-123442.news.uni-berlin.de...
Then we discussed how unfortunate it was that Iraq didn't seem to have any weapons of mass destruction after all and what a moral dilemma that
caused. She made some fairly thoughtful comments and I agree with you that kids
can understand some quite complex concepts.

I agree with that too - but with some help from adults. And the adult's
values will help shape whatever that help is.

Doug Anderson wrote: "JWB" <awayspam00973@noplace.com> writes: "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:g5A_b.49000$4o.68940@attbi_s52... "JWB" <awayspam2973@noplace.com> writes:> "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message> news:3754f0b3.0402231730.6f570547@posting.google.c om...>> My nine year old daughter was sitting and doing a puzzle while I>> was doing kitchen stuff. She was talking randomly about a lot of>> subjects. Her last topic was, "Sometimes I wish that I was>> famous so that everybody liked me and wanted to be with me, you>> know someone like George Washington, definitely not George Bush,>> but George Washington." I didn't waste our time talking about>> Bush, but we did have a nice conversation about how you can be>> whatever you choose to be and how important it is to not allow>> others to impose their stereotyping behaviors, their values, nor>> to allow others to assume to know what is best for you.>> does she not like Bush because she understands politics, or> because you don't like him? Don't know about Caren's daughter. My 8 and 10 year olds don't like Bush because they believe he invaded Iraq on false pretexts. This isn't something they learned from me (at least not directly). They don't really understand what a fiasco he is domestically though. I agree. My point was, obviously, someone else's values are coming through, whether or not you tell them it's bad or good. I wouldn't expect pre-teens to really understand politics or to understand exactly why we invaded or whatnot. I would expect them to emulate what an adult analyzing the situation tells them. You sell them just a little short. Some things are probably too complex, but most kids understand that war, and the accompanying killing are a pretty bad thing. If your kid is old enough to talk, and old enough to overhear the news, you can expect them to ask questions like "why are we invading (fill in the blank of the U.S.'s favorite demon here)?" And unless you can give them a pretty convincing answer like: "They invaded us first" or "They say they are going to try to kill us" they are likely to have strong doubts about whether invading is a good thing.

Late last year when Bush visited Australia (you knew he did that, right?) my
daughter wanted to know why he and our Prime Minister didn't just talk on
the phone.

"Good question, petal", thought I.

I explained that it was a goodwill visit to thank our government for sending
troops to Iraq (you knew about that, too, right?) and was supposed to show
what good friends and allies the U.S.A. considers the people of Australia.
(I'm absolutely totally sure you know about that one, as well.)

I managed to keep my face straight.

Then I talked to her about the free trade agreement between Australia and
the U.S.A. has been under discussion.....

Then we discussed how unfortunate it was that Iraq didn't seem to have any
weapons of mass destruction after all and what a moral dilemma that caused.
She made some fairly thoughtful comments and I agree with you that kids can
understand some quite complex concepts.

Tai

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fyA_b.47343$Xp.230048@attbi_s54... "Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> writes: I explained that it was a goodwill visit to thank our government for
sending troops to Iraq (you knew about that, too, right?) and was supposed to
show what good friends and allies the U.S.A. considers the people of
Australia. (I'm absolutely totally sure you know about that one, as well.) Bush goes to some pains to point out that, in spite of appearances, we didn't "go it alone" in Australia and that beside British support we were part of a "coalition" including the esrtwhile Aussies, among others.

I liked it when he said we had a bigger coalition than last time. Yea, maybe
on paper, but when Spain and Poland are in your top 5, it's not really a
world-power effort.

I could just hear them in the White House... "Rwanda gives their support!
Yea Baby!!"

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:GCA_b.111455$jk2.498511@attbi_s53... I'm not so sure. Caren's daughter was distinguishing between George Washington (who is essentially universally admired) and George Bush, who (I hope) everyone knows _isn't_ universally admired, whether he deserves to be or not. Remember what Caren's daughter was talking about. Not policy, but just being liked and admired.

Good point.

"Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> writes:
I explained that it was a goodwill visit to thank our government for sending troops to Iraq (you knew about that, too, right?) and was supposed to show what good friends and allies the U.S.A. considers the people of Australia. (I'm absolutely totally sure you know about that one, as well.)

Bush goes to some pains to point out that, in spite of appearances, we
didn't "go it alone" in Australia and that beside British support we
were part of a "coalition" including the esrtwhile Aussies, among
others.

"JWB" <awayspam00973@noplace.com> writes:
"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:apA_b.49052$4o.68983@attbi_s52... "JWB" <awayspam00973@noplace.com> writes: "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:PdA_b.49024$4o.68711@attbi_s52... > "JWB" <awayspam00973@noplace.com> writes: > > > "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > news:g5A_b.49000$4o.68940@attbi_s52... > > > "JWB" <awayspam2973@noplace.com> writes: > > > > > > > "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message > > > > news:3754f0b3.0402231730.6f570547@posting.google.c om... > > > > > My nine year old daughter was sitting and doing a puzzle while I was > > > > > doing kitchen stuff. She was talking randomly about a lot of > > > > > subjects. Her last topic was, "Sometimes I wish that I was famous so > > > > > that everybody liked me and wanted to be with me, you know someone > > > > > like George Washington, definitely not George Bush, but George > > > > > Washington." I didn't waste our time talking about Bush, but we did > > > > > have a nice conversation about how you can be whatever you choose to > > > > > be and how important it is to not allow others to impose their > > > > > stereotyping behaviors, their values, nor to allow others to assume > > > > > to know what is best for you. > > > > > > > > does she not like Bush because she understands politics, or because you > > > > don't like him? > > > > > > Don't know about Caren's daughter. My 8 and 10 year olds don't like > > > Bush because they believe he invaded Iraq on false pretexts. This > > > isn't something they learned from me (at least not directly). > > > > > > They don't really understand what a fiasco he is domestically though. > > > > I agree. > > > > My point was, obviously, someone else's values are coming through, whether > > or not you tell them it's bad or good. I wouldn't expect pre-teens to really > > understand politics or to understand exactly why we invaded or whatnot. I > > would expect them to emulate what an adult analyzing the situation tells > > them. > > You sell them just a little short. Some things are probably too > complex, but most kids understand that war, and the accompanying > killing are a pretty bad thing. If your kid is old enough to talk, > and old enough to overhear the news, you can expect them to ask > questions like "why are we invading (fill in the blank of the U.S.'s > favorite demon here)?" Yes, I agree with that. > > And unless you can give them a pretty convincing answer like: > > "They invaded us first" or "They say they are going to try to kill us" > they are likely to have strong doubts about whether invading is a good > thing. This I doubt. Of course, if you say "gee, i don't know why", ok, I'd think the kids could surmise "not good" I'm speaking from experience here. Both as "kid" during the Vietnam days and as parent during the U.S.'s most recent foreign adventure. But it may depend on the kids. My kids are (surprise, surprise) somewhat opinionated. And so was I when I was their age. But do you think your opinions help shape theirs (at this point in their lives)? I mean, wouldn't they almost *have* to?

Oh, of course! But so do the opinions of their friends. And they
also think for themselves. For that matter, it goes both ways. Their
opinions influence _me_ sometimes.
I just find it ironic that Caren, who is a well-known Bush hater, has a nine year old daughter that also doesn't like Bush, all the while telling her that other's imposing their values isn't good. I just seriously doubt that with no help at all, Caren's daughter took in all the available info and made an informed opinion that Bush is not good.

I'm not so sure. Caren's daughter was distinguishing between George
Washington (who is essentially universally admired) and George Bush,
who (I hope) everyone knows _isn't_ universally admired, whether he
deserves to be or not.

Remember what Caren's daughter was talking about. Not policy, but
just being liked and admired. (My kids have been asking about Bush's
national guard service, since that keeps coming on the news.)
There's nothing wrong with this, mind you. I just found it funny in the context of what Caren was trying to tell her daughter.

JWB wrote: "Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c1ek3c$1hodmp$1@ID-123442.news.uni-berlin.de... Then we discussed how unfortunate it was that Iraq didn't seem to have any weapons of mass destruction after all and what a moral dilemma that caused. She made some fairly thoughtful comments and I agree with you that kids can understand some quite complex concepts. I agree with that too - but with some help from adults. And the adult's values will help shape whatever that help is.

I certainly hope so!

Seriously, my job is to teach my children how to think for themselves but I
would be doing them a disservice if I didn't impart my values as a starting
point. What they do will them from then on will be up to them, of course.
<gulp>

Tai

Doug Anderson wrote:
Bush goes to some pains to point out that, in spite of appearances, we didn't "go it alone" in Australia and that beside British support we were part of a "coalition" including the esrtwhile Aussies, among others.

He does? Crikey...

I have had a very cynical view about just how much the "coalition of the
willing" has been mentioned domestically in the US.

Tai

JWB wrote: "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:fyA_b.47343$Xp.230048@attbi_s54... "Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> writes: I explained that it was a goodwill visit to thank our government for sending troops to Iraq (you knew about that, too, right?) and was supposed to show what good friends and allies the U.S.A. considers the people of Australia. (I'm absolutely totally sure you know about that one, as well.) Bush goes to some pains to point out that, in spite of appearances, we didn't "go it alone" in Australia and that beside British support we were part of a "coalition" including the esrtwhile Aussies, among others. I liked it when he said we had a bigger coalition than last time. Yea, maybe on paper, but when Spain and Poland are in your top 5, it's not really a world-power effort. I could just hear them in the White House... "Rwanda gives their support! Yea Baby!!"

Yes, this has been more my impression that our 'help' has been viewed.

Tai

"Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> writes:
Doug Anderson wrote: Bush goes to some pains to point out that, in spite of appearances, we didn't "go it alone" in Australia and that beside British support we were part of a "coalition" including the esrtwhile Aussies, among others. He does? Crikey... I have had a very cynical view about just how much the "coalition of the willing" has been mentioned domestically in the US.

It has been used for exactly one purpose. To provide evidence that
Bush isn't an isolationist and that (in spite of those irresponsible
pommes-frites-eating-euro-surrender-monkeys) the rest of the world
supports the effort to overthrow Saddam.

Of course since most of the U.S. population doesn't actually care
about this, it isn't necessary to bring it up _that_ often.

"JWB" <awayspam00973@noplace.com> wrote in message
news:prA_b.162422$cM1.31428592@twister.nyc.rr.com. ..
But do you think your opinions help shape theirs (at this point in their lives)? I mean, wouldn't they almost *have* to?

Yes, of course. My kids are 9, 9 and 5. I like Bush, and my kids only have
nice things to say about him <g>. Seriously, when the invasion was taking
place in its early stages, and there was coverage that spilled over into the
classroom, the kids did come to me with questions. DH's and my responses
were always supportive of the government, something like, "Our forces are
going over to Iraq to help support the cause of freedom" yadda yadda. Part
of our rationale had to do with fostering a respect for the military, the
commander in chief, and authority figures in general; part of it had to do
with our support of the mission.

FWIW, DH doesn't like Bush. In the 15 years we've been together, I've come
180 degrees from my liberal views, while he's still stuck in the past,
lol...but I'm working on him. ;-)

It's amazing how much you can shape what your kids think when they're young.
It's pretty cool in a mad scientist sort of way...heh heh heh heh...

Jennifer

"Jennifer" <JenPam2003@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1pSdnTN6nKHNsabdRVn-sQ@comcast.com...
FWIW, DH doesn't like Bush. In the 15 years we've been together, I've
come 180 degrees from my liberal views, while he's still stuck in the past, lol...but I'm working on him. ;-)

I'm a lot less liberal than I was years ago - I really don't give a ****
about the downtrodden anymore, but I do like our liberal-type laws, like
freedom of speech and privacy and the like, so I'm not much for Bush or any
republican, really.

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0402231730.6f570547@posting.google.c om... My nine year old daughter was sitting and doing a puzzle while I was doing kitchen stuff. She was talking randomly about a lot of subjects. Her last topic was, "Sometimes I wish that I was famous so that everybody liked me and wanted to be with me, you know someone like George Washington, definitely not George Bush, but George Washington." I didn't waste our time talking about Bush, but we did have a nice conversation about how you can be whatever you choose to be and how important it is to not allow others to impose their stereotyping behaviors, their values, nor to allow others to assume to know what is best for you. Before long she'll be in ASM giving pointers to some grown ups :-)

Intelligence is not something that grows as we age. Only experience
is increased.

I learn from my children all of the time.

Last summer we spent a week together at the beach (rain every day).

One night some of my friends stopped over to spent time with us. A few
drinks after the babies went down for the night and the conversation got
going pretty good. My best friend (noted psychologist type) started to
bad mouth Rap music. My middle son then gave him a 15 minute lecture
on the meaning and importance of this type of music to our culture. I
was amazed at his brilliance. Later my friend took me aside and admitted
to me how he had just been enlightened on the subject. He also noted that
my son had impressed him beyond anything that he had observed about him
before.

Get ready to be surprised by your daughter every once in awhile for the rest
of your life.

"Jennifer" <JenPam2003@yahoo.com> writes:
"JWB" <awayspam00973@noplace.com> wrote in message news:prA_b.162422$cM1.31428592@twister.nyc.rr.com. .. But do you think your opinions help shape theirs (at this point in their lives)? I mean, wouldn't they almost *have* to? Yes, of course. My kids are 9, 9 and 5. I like Bush, and my kids only have nice things to say about him <g>. Seriously, when the invasion was taking place in its early stages, and there was coverage that spilled over into the classroom, the kids did come to me with questions.

My kids get more news that what spills into the classroom.
DH's and my responses were always supportive of the government, something like, "Our forces are going over to Iraq to help support the cause of freedom" yadda yadda.

My kids would not have accepted that answer. They would want to know
_how_ this war supports the cause of freedom. Of course I told them
about suspected WMDs. But now they've been hearing for months that it
turns out there are no WMDs.
Part of our rationale had to do with fostering a respect for the military, the commander in chief, and authority figures in general; part of it had to do with our support of the mission. FWIW, DH doesn't like Bush. In the 15 years we've been together, I've come 180 degrees from my liberal views, while he's still stuck in the past, lol...but I'm working on him. ;-) It's amazing how much you can shape what your kids think when they're young. It's pretty cool in a mad scientist sort of way...heh heh heh heh...

You can influence them a lot when they're young. But anything you do
which isn't honest will come back and haunt you later!

Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote:
"JWB" <awayspam2973@noplace.com> writes: "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message news:3754f0b3.0402231730.6f570547@posting.google.c om... My nine year old daughter was sitting and doing a puzzle while I was doing kitchen stuff. She was talking randomly about a lot of subjects. Her last topic was, "Sometimes I wish that I was famous so that everybody liked me and wanted to be with me, you know someone like George Washington, definitely not George Bush, but George Washington." I didn't waste our time talking about Bush, but we did have a nice conversation about how you can be whatever you choose to be and how important it is to not allow others to impose their stereotyping behaviors, their values, nor to allow others to assume to know what is best for you. does she not like Bush because she understands politics, or because you don't like him? Don't know about Caren's daughter. My 8 and 10 year olds don't like Bush because they believe he invaded Iraq on false pretexts. This isn't something they learned from me (at least not directly). They don't really understand what a fiasco he is domestically though.

Same with my 9 and 11 year olds. They were firmly against invading Iraq
while I was still dithering about it. We all went to a peace march, and
they made their own signs with no suggestions from me.

"JWB" <awayspam00973@noplace.com> wrote in message
news:TaA_b.91586$Lp.49033@twister.nyc.rr.com... "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:g5A_b.49000$4o.68940@attbi_s52... "JWB" <awayspam2973@noplace.com> writes: "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message news:3754f0b3.0402231730.6f570547@posting.google.c om... > My nine year old daughter was sitting and doing a puzzle while I was > doing kitchen stuff. She was talking randomly about a lot of > subjects. Her last topic was, "Sometimes I wish that I was famous
so > that everybody liked me and wanted to be with me, you know someone > like George Washington, definitely not George Bush, but George > Washington." I didn't waste our time talking about Bush, but we did > have a nice conversation about how you can be whatever you choose to > be and how important it is to not allow others to impose their > stereotyping behaviors, their values, nor to allow others to assume > to know what is best for you. does she not like Bush because she understands politics, or because
you don't like him? Don't know about Caren's daughter. My 8 and 10 year olds don't like Bush because they believe he invaded Iraq on false pretexts. This isn't something they learned from me (at least not directly). They don't really understand what a fiasco he is domestically though. I agree. My point was, obviously, someone else's values are coming through, whether or not you tell them it's bad or good. I wouldn't expect pre-teens to
really understand politics or to understand exactly why we invaded or whatnot. I would expect them to emulate what an adult analyzing the situation tells them.

Why not? Or at least I can see no reason that they could not attempt to
evaluate the sound bites coming out of the media as we adults do. My niece
comes up with some pretty interesting "analysis."

S

"JWB" <awayspam2973@noplace.com> wrote in message news:<11A_b.91540$Lp.91249@twister.nyc.rr.com>... "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message news:3754f0b3.0402231730.6f570547@posting.google.c om... My nine year old daughter was sitting and doing a puzzle while I was doing kitchen stuff. She was talking randomly about a lot of subjects. Her last topic was, "Sometimes I wish that I was famous so that everybody liked me and wanted to be with me, you know someone like George Washington, definitely not George Bush, but George Washington." I didn't waste our time talking about Bush, but we did have a nice conversation about how you can be whatever you choose to be and how important it is to not allow others to impose their stereotyping behaviors, their values, nor to allow others to assume to know what is best for you. does she not like Bush because she understands politics, or because you don't like him?

A little of both. She is a bright girl. We have talked about some of
the issues and where he stands. The main issue that she really
understands is the war. Her friends daddy has been gone since last
Feb. He comes home from time to time but he isn't due home until MAY!
That is 15 months with Mom alone raising a 9 year old girl and a 5
year old boy.

Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<PdA_b.49024$4o.68711@attbi_s52>... "JWB" <awayspam00973@noplace.com> writes: "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:g5A_b.49000$4o.68940@attbi_s52... "JWB" <awayspam2973@noplace.com> writes: > "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message > news:3754f0b3.0402231730.6f570547@posting.google.c om... > > My nine year old daughter was sitting and doing a puzzle while I was > > doing kitchen stuff. She was talking randomly about a lot of > > subjects. Her last topic was, "Sometimes I wish that I was famous so > > that everybody liked me and wanted to be with me, you know someone > > like George Washington, definitely not George Bush, but George > > Washington." I didn't waste our time talking about Bush, but we did > > have a nice conversation about how you can be whatever you choose to > > be and how important it is to not allow others to impose their > > stereotyping behaviors, their values, nor to allow others to assume > > to know what is best for you. > > does she not like Bush because she understands politics, or because you > don't like him? Don't know about Caren's daughter. My 8 and 10 year olds don't like Bush because they believe he invaded Iraq on false pretexts. This isn't something they learned from me (at least not directly). They don't really understand what a fiasco he is domestically though. I agree. My point was, obviously, someone else's values are coming through, whether or not you tell them it's bad or good. I wouldn't expect pre-teens to really understand politics or to understand exactly why we invaded or whatnot. I would expect them to emulate what an adult analyzing the situation tells them. You sell them just a little short. Some things are probably too complex, but most kids understand that war, and the accompanying killing are a pretty bad thing. If your kid is old enough to talk, and old enough to overhear the news, you can expect them to ask questions like "why are we invading (fill in the blank of the U.S.'s favorite demon here)?" And unless you can give them a pretty convincing answer like: "They invaded us first" or "They say they are going to try to kill us" they are likely to have strong doubts about whether invading is a good thing.


The day of 9/11 I was up and watching tv at 6 am and saw the 2nd plane
go through the second tower. I felt like I was watching a movie and
then it occurred to me that I had to brief my then 7 year old before
she got on the school bus. So we have had talks about world issues
since then. My first reaction was to tell her that some horrible
people did some horrible things to the Americans. But then I
realized, in time, that I had to explain some of the horrible things
that Americans do and have done to other countries. She has since
learned that America is not "all that".

"JWB" <awayspam00973@noplace.com> wrote in message news:<TaA_b.91586$Lp.49033@twister.nyc.rr.com>... "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:g5A_b.49000$4o.68940@attbi_s52... "JWB" <awayspam2973@noplace.com> writes: "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message news:3754f0b3.0402231730.6f570547@posting.google.c om... > My nine year old daughter was sitting and doing a puzzle while I was > doing kitchen stuff. She was talking randomly about a lot of > subjects. Her last topic was, "Sometimes I wish that I was famous so > that everybody liked me and wanted to be with me, you know someone > like George Washington, definitely not George Bush, but George > Washington." I didn't waste our time talking about Bush, but we did > have a nice conversation about how you can be whatever you choose to > be and how important it is to not allow others to impose their > stereotyping behaviors, their values, nor to allow others to assume > to know what is best for you. does she not like Bush because she understands politics, or because you don't like him? Don't know about Caren's daughter. My 8 and 10 year olds don't like Bush because they believe he invaded Iraq on false pretexts. This isn't something they learned from me (at least not directly). They don't really understand what a fiasco he is domestically though. I agree. My point was, obviously, someone else's values are coming through, whether or not you tell them it's bad or good. I wouldn't expect pre-teens to really understand politics or to understand exactly why we invaded or whatnot. I would expect them to emulate what an adult analyzing the situation tells them.

I think an older pre-teen can very definitely form their own opinion.
Of course their views will be influenced by their parents. However,
they may highly value their parents opinions on certain subjects and
not so much on others. The younger the kid is, the more likely it is
that their parents represent the major source of authoritative
information.

Our 4 year old is very capable of critical thought, as are I'm sure
most others. I read a few kids books to him every night before he goes
to bed and have been doing it since before he was one. Some books I've
read a dozen or more times and to keep things interesting, I don't
always read them "right". I'll say things that don't match the
pictures or that he knows are wrong because that's not the way I read
it the first 30 times. He delights in correcting me.

For better or worse, he knows that not everything that comes out of my
mouth is "truth".

He'll ask tough scientific questions and I remember once being quite
proud of the answer I came up with only to have him say: "I don't
believe you". The nerve! He didn't think I was lying, he just thought
I was wrong because it didn't jibe with anything he had experienced in
his 4 years.

To the extent that political issues are discussed in school, I think
it's very possible for a child to have different views from their
parents, especially if their parents aren't particularly vocal about
their politics.

jinglebells5555@yahoo.com (Jingle Bells) writes:
He'll ask tough scientific questions and I remember once being quite proud of the answer I came up with only to have him say: "I don't believe you". The nerve! He didn't think I was lying, he just thought I was wrong because it didn't jibe with anything he had experienced in his 4 years.

If you check the owner's manual that came with your 4 year old, it
turns out that you aren't supposed to tell them that subatomic
particles are really just probability distributions!

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:jsad38we2y.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu... "Jennifer" <JenPam2003@yahoo.com> writes: "JWB" <awayspam00973@noplace.com> wrote in message news:prA_b.162422$cM1.31428592@twister.nyc.rr.com. .. But do you think your opinions help shape theirs (at this point in
their lives)? I mean, wouldn't they almost *have* to? Yes, of course. My kids are 9, 9 and 5. I like Bush, and my kids only
have nice things to say about him <g>. Seriously, when the invasion was
taking place in its early stages, and there was coverage that spilled over into
the classroom, the kids did come to me with questions. My kids get more news that what spills into the classroom.

My kids don't. :-) When they have current events assignments, I pull out
select articles for them. I don't care to expose them to front page news at
this point in time, and they don't watch any TV other than the occasional
video or Disney cartoon. Occasionally DH and I will discuss politics at
dinner, but typically in an abstract fashion (the political hierarchy,
electoral system, etc.). We always make the effort to be respectful
regardless of our views (that's something we strive to achieve because we
are nearly polar opposites now in a lot of our political beliefs).
DH's and my responses were always supportive of the government, something like, "Our forces
are going over to Iraq to help support the cause of freedom" yadda yadda. My kids would not have accepted that answer. They would want to know _how_ this war supports the cause of freedom. Of course I told them about suspected WMDs. But now they've been hearing for months that it turns out there are no WMDs.

My children go to a small Episcopalian private school where the head of the
school shares DH's and my philosophy about sheltering young kids from
mainstream news. But if my kids did come to me with questions about WMDs,
I'd just explain what some people are concerned about, and what others
believe...in short, I'd express the opinions of a variety of "sides" of the
matter.

Though DH is not a fan of Bush, he feels as I do that respect of authority
figures is essential, and *at least while our children are young* we are
completely in agreement that elected officials are due a presumption of good
will. It will be interesting to see if our kids adopt that view as they
mature.
You can influence them a lot when they're young. But anything you do which isn't honest will come back and haunt you later!

Yeah, don't I know it. :-) I have a nearly 18yo SD who's lived with us 50%
of the time, and I've been her parent since she was a baby...somehow she
slipped away from me and became liberal, lol! But I forgive her. Now I
have 3 more kids to work on. Maybe 1/4 of the progeny will adopt a
conservative POV. <sigh>

Jennifer

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0402241118.412d8324@posting.google.c om...
I think that in some ways children are smarter today. In my day, when I asked my parents something, which was usually my mother, she'd tell me not to worry about it. She didn't sit and explain it. Today I think that more parents are more knowlegable and take the time to explain the reasons why and how things happen. I know that I do! I think both of my children are opinionated and they are both smart. Is there really anyone who isn't opinionated?

I wouldn't characterize my children as opinionated, but then again, I don't
want opinionated children...and I'm pretty sure that they're smart enough to
realize that. :-)

Jennifer

"Jennifer" <JenPam2003@yahoo.com> writes:
"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:jsad38we2y.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu... "Jennifer" <JenPam2003@yahoo.com> writes: "JWB" <awayspam00973@noplace.com> wrote in message news:prA_b.162422$cM1.31428592@twister.nyc.rr.com. .. > But do you think your opinions help shape theirs (at this point in their > lives)? I mean, wouldn't they almost *have* to? Yes, of course. My kids are 9, 9 and 5. I like Bush, and my kids only have nice things to say about him <g>. Seriously, when the invasion was taking place in its early stages, and there was coverage that spilled over into the classroom, the kids did come to me with questions. My kids get more news that what spills into the classroom. My kids don't. :-) When they have current events assignments, I pull out select articles for them. I don't care to expose them to front page news at this point in time, and they don't watch any TV other than the occasional video or Disney cartoon. Occasionally DH and I will discuss politics at dinner, but typically in an abstract fashion (the political hierarchy, electoral system, etc.).

We have respectful discussions that are not abstract at all, but are
related to current events and concerns. We do this because we are
interested in current events, but I also think it is good for kids to
be exposed to what is actually happening.

If this was the time of Vietnam, I'd want them to understand (in a
general way) what was happening there. If this was 1943 I'd want them
to understand (without gory details) the genocide occuring in Germany
and Eastern Europe (and for that matter, the internment of Americans
of Japanese descent in the U.S.).

But this is partly because I want them to grow up to fight for what
they think is right, and to decide this based on the information they
gather about the world. And not to believe (for example) that the
U.S. government is always right just because it is the
U.S. government.
We always make the effort to be respectful regardless of our views (that's something we strive to achieve because we are nearly polar opposites now in a lot of our political beliefs). DH's and my responses were always supportive of the government, something like, "Our forces are going over to Iraq to help support the cause of freedom" yadda yadda. My kids would not have accepted that answer. They would want to know _how_ this war supports the cause of freedom. Of course I told them about suspected WMDs. But now they've been hearing for months that it turns out there are no WMDs. My children go to a small Episcopalian private school where the head of the school shares DH's and my philosophy about sheltering young kids from mainstream news. But if my kids did come to me with questions about WMDs, I'd just explain what some people are concerned about, and what others believe...in short, I'd express the opinions of a variety of "sides" of the matter. Though DH is not a fan of Bush, he feels as I do that respect of authority figures is essential, and *at least while our children are young* we are completely in agreement that elected officials are due a presumption of good will. It will be interesting to see if our kids adopt that view as they mature.

This would bother me. I think all people deserve respect. But the
respect due to authority should be (IMO) earned rather than automatic.
Having your Daddy's friends buy you a presidency doesn't merit
automatic respect.

I think respect should be based on a person's _actions_ rather than
their _position_. Since I know that my kids make judgements about
people, I'd like to teach them to base their judgements on what those
people do rather than on who they are.
You can influence them a lot when they're young. But anything you do which isn't honest will come back and haunt you later! Yeah, don't I know it. :-) I have a nearly 18yo SD who's lived with us 50% of the time, and I've been her parent since she was a baby...somehow she slipped away from me and became liberal, lol!

"If you aren't a liberal when you're young, you have no heart, ..."
(I'll let someone else fill in the rest of (whose? Churchill's?)
quote.)
But I forgive her. Now I have 3 more kids to work on. Maybe 1/4 of the progeny will adopt a conservative POV. <sigh> Jennifer

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8BV_b.119506$uV3.618947@attbi_s51...
My kids don't. :-) When they have current events assignments, I pull
out select articles for them. I don't care to expose them to front page
news at this point in time, and they don't watch any TV other than the
occasional video or Disney cartoon. Occasionally DH and I will discuss politics at dinner, but typically in an abstract fashion (the political hierarchy, electoral system, etc.). We have respectful discussions that are not abstract at all, but are related to current events and concerns. We do this because we are interested in current events, but I also think it is good for kids to be exposed to what is actually happening.

I respect your position, Doug, though I disagree. That is, I don't believe
in exposing my own kids to the news when they're young. By the time my
oldest was in her teens, we regularly spoke with her about controversial
current events. As it stands now with the younger kids, we discuss morally
neutral current events (though anything can become an issue [if you love
caribou, does that mean you're against drilling? etc.]). :-)
If this was the time of Vietnam, I'd want them to understand (in a general way) what was happening there. If this was 1943 I'd want them to understand (without gory details) the genocide occuring in Germany and Eastern Europe (and for that matter, the internment of Americans of Japanese descent in the U.S.).

While I don't even want my children to know about the Holocaust and other
genocides at this point in their lives. There is plenty of time for pain
and horror and the realization that People Suck, IMO, and I'm a big
shelterer. I realize I'm not in the mainstream here, which is okay. What
matters in my marriage (see, it's OT) is that DH and I are completely in
agreement when it comes to wanting to limit our children's exposure to the
world.
But this is partly because I want them to grow up to fight for what they think is right, and to decide this based on the information they gather about the world. And not to believe (for example) that the U.S. government is always right just because it is the U.S. government.

I think I can teach my children now that the U.S. government is always
right, but I don't believe that will compel them to follow that way of
thinking for the rest of their lives. I imagine that, as children do, they
will grow up and come to their own understanding, which undoubtedly will
include a reasonable suspicion of our government and other authority
figures. It's just that our starting point for our children, at their young
ages, is to give them a basis in having faith in government--at its most
ideal, it's a wonderful thing. :-) People will gather information about
the world sooner or later; I'd just rather it happen later, that's all. I
hope my kids will get deeply involved in politics when they're in high
school. I'd love to see them become active citizens on a local, and later
broader, level.

What can I say, I'm an atheistic Pollyanna. I've got some deeply held views
that don't necessarily translate well.
Though DH is not a fan of Bush, he feels as I do that respect of
authority figures is essential, and *at least while our children are young* we are completely in agreement that elected officials are due a presumption of
good will. It will be interesting to see if our kids adopt that view as they mature. This would bother me. I think all people deserve respect. But the respect due to authority should be (IMO) earned rather than automatic.

I disagree here, too. I think children need to learn to respect adults and
authority figures. That's MHO, and I know there's an argument that asking
children to respect all adults sets them up to be victims of (fill in the
blank). However, I feel that the risk of that (harm befalling them due to
their automatic deference) is less than the risk of them being offensive or
hurtful to their elders, which is an egregious violation to me. I'm sure
YMMV...
Having your Daddy's friends buy you a presidency doesn't merit automatic respect.

<g> No, not from an adult. I have no problem with teaching my young
children to respect the office of the President of the United States,
though. I don't expect my 17yo to have that sort of automatic respect.
I think respect should be based on a person's _actions_ rather than their _position_.

Yes, but also yes...I think children should watch a person's actions and be
mindful of that person's position. And I don't think most children should
be in the position of gauging which adults merit respect and which don't.
Since I know that my kids make judgements about people, I'd like to teach them to base their judgements on what those people do rather than on who they are.

And then being a Pollyanna (it's hard being an optimist, I tell you, b/c
people keep knocking off my rosy glasses), I try to teach my kids that they
don't know enough about people to judge them, that it's not their position.
That kid who keeps knocking you around in PE? He might appear to be a bully
who isn't worthy of respect, but on the other hand, there's a lot about that
kid you don't know. What might be underlying his behavior? (Okay, maybe he
is just an asshole...LOL!) ;-)
"If you aren't a liberal when you're young, you have no heart, ..." (I'll let someone else fill in the rest of (whose? Churchill's?) quote.)

"If you're not a liberal when you're young, you have no heart; if you're not
a conservative when you're older, you have no brain." And when I was
younger, I didn't believe that, and now I can't seem to convince my 40yo DH
and 64yo mom to come over to the dark side...I don't think I'm persuasive
enough <g>.

Jennifer

>but we did have a nice conversation about how you can be whatever you choose to be and how important it is to not allow others to impose their stereotyping behaviors, their values, nor to allow others to assume to know what is best for you.

Somehow I don't think this advice is going to make her any more likeable.
And whether YOU realize it or not this little "talk" of yours is doing
EXACTLY what you are telling her NOT to do..... "allow others to assume to
know what is best for you".

I think a conversation about "likeable qualities" such as being honest,
reliable, truthful, caring, respectful, etc., would have been more
productive that spouting the old feminist party line.

SD

"Shashay Doofray" <shashay@yahoo.com> writes:
but we did have a nice conversation about how you can be whatever you choose to be and how important it is to not allow others to impose their stereotyping behaviors, their values, nor to allow others to assume to know what is best for you. Somehow I don't think this advice is going to make her any more likeable.

Perhaps that isn't Caren's goal.
And whether YOU realize it or not this little "talk" of yours is doing EXACTLY what you are telling her NOT to do..... "allow others to assume to know what is best for you". I think a conversation about "likeable qualities" such as being honest, reliable, truthful, caring, respectful, etc., would have been more productive that spouting the old feminist party line.

I don't think it is "feminism" to look within yourself for your values
rather than unquestioningly adopting the values of the prevailing
culture.

"Shashay Doofray" <shashay@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<voZ_b.1094$i%.999@fe21>...but we did have a nice conversation about how you can be whatever you choose to be and how important it is to not allow others to impose their stereotyping behaviors, their values, nor to allow others to assume to know what is best for you. Somehow I don't think this advice is going to make her any more likeable. And whether YOU realize it or not this little "talk" of yours is doing EXACTLY what you are telling her NOT to do..... "allow others to assume to know what is best for you". I think a conversation about "likeable qualities" such as being honest, reliable, truthful, caring, respectful, etc., would have been more productive that spouting the old feminist party line. SD

We talk about that stuff all the time. In fact we're in the middle of
The Book of Virtues for Kids right now. Remember SD, you're not at
our house with us. My daughter is likeable due to the fact that we are
raising her with discipline and love. I also want her to know that
the world is out there waiting for her. My father told me to be a
secretary or a teacher so that I "could get a part time job if my
husband ever got ill and he couldn't work." Times they are a changing
:-)

You'd love this little miss if you met her :-) I know that you don't
have any children by choice, but do you dislike children in general?
(Just in case you try to read into this, my question has nothing to do
with your post)

Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<BFR_b.117427$uV3.613903@attbi_s51>... jinglebells5555@yahoo.com (Jingle Bells) writes: He'll ask tough scientific questions and I remember once being quite proud of the answer I came up with only to have him say: "I don't believe you". The nerve! He didn't think I was lying, he just thought I was wrong because it didn't jibe with anything he had experienced in his 4 years. If you check the owner's manual that came with your 4 year old, it turns out that you aren't supposed to tell them that subatomic particles are really just probability distributions!

Damn, I knew I should have read the manual first ;-)

What makes his "scientific" questions tough is that even if I know the
answer, I'm often at a loss for how to explain it to him. For
example, he's asked questions like "When fire goes out, where does it
go?", and "How do rockets fly?"

In the case of the rocket question, I made a meager attempt at an
explanation before I remembered that we used to build and fly model
rockets as kids. I told him that the next day we'd go out and buy a
little rocket, put it together and then fly (launch) it when the
weather was right. So that's what we did. I purposely bought one that
required some assembly so that he could help put it together.

That weekend we had a perfectly calm day, and we launched it off a
frozen lake. I had forgotten how high those things can go. Now I don't
know that he really has that much better of an understanding of how
they work, but he sure was excited when he pressed the button and that
thing whooshed into the sky so fast and so high we could barely see
it.

JWB wrote: "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:apA_b.49052$4o.68983@attbi_s52..."JWB" <awayspam00973@noplace.com> writes:"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in messagenews:PdA_b.49024$4o.68711@attbi_s52...>"JWB" <awayspam00973@noplace.com> writes:>>>>"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message>>news:g5A_b.49000$4o.68940@attbi_s52...>>>>>"JWB" <awayspam2973@noplace.com> writes:>>>>>>>>>>"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message>>>>news:3754f0b3.0402231730.6f570547@posting.google.c om...>>>>>>>>>My nine year old daughter was sitting and doing a puzzle while Iwas>>>>>doing kitchen stuff. She was talking randomly about a lot of>>>>>subjects. Her last topic was, "Sometimes I wish that I was famousso>>>>>that everybody liked me and wanted to be with me, you know someone>>>>>like George Washington, definitely not George Bush, but George>>>>>Washington." I didn't waste our time talking about Bush, but wedid>>>>>have a nice conversation about how you can be whatever you chooseto>>>>>be and how important it is to not allow others to impose their>>>>>stereotyping behaviors, their values, nor to allow others toassume>>>>>to know what is best for you.>>>>>>>>does she not like Bush because she understands politics, or becauseyou>>>>don't like him?>>>>>>Don't know about Caren's daughter. My 8 and 10 year olds don't like>>>Bush because they believe he invaded Iraq on false pretexts. This>>>isn't something they learned from me (at least not directly).>>>>>>They don't really understand what a fiasco he is domestically though.>>I agree.>>>>My point was, obviously, someone else's values are coming through,whether>>or not you tell them it's bad or good. I wouldn't expect pre-teens toreally>>understand politics or to understand exactly why we invaded or whatnot.I>>would expect them to emulate what an adult analyzing the situation tells>>them.>>You sell them just a little short. Some things are probably too>complex, but most kids understand that war, and the accompanying>killing are a pretty bad thing. If your kid is old enough to talk,>and old enough to overhear the news, you can expect them to ask>questions like "why are we invading (fill in the blank of the U.S.'s>favorite demon here)?"Yes, I agree with that.>And unless you can give them a pretty convincing answer like:>>"They invaded us first" or "They say they are going to try to kill us">they are likely to have strong doubts about whether invading is a good>thing.This I doubt. Of course, if you say "gee, i don't know why", ok, I'd thinkthe kids could surmise "not good"I'm speaking from experience here. Both as "kid" during the Vietnam daysand as parent during the U.S.'s most recent foreign adventure.But it may depend on the kids. My kids are (surprise, surprise)somewhat opinionated. And so was I when I was their age. But do you think your opinions help shape theirs (at this point in their lives)? I mean, wouldn't they almost *have* to?

No. My 5-year-old <granted he's only five and has no clue..although
incredibly bright> and I hate Bush <even though am typically
republican>....okay, I don't hate Bush...I DETEST THIS WAR.....but my
5-year-old knows "President Bush" on sight and will sit and watch a
state-of-the-union address and even come tell me that "President Bush is
on tv"......I don't force my opinions on my kids.....it's not my
right....I want them to build their own belief system....and although
the "big questions" haven't come up yet I will strive to give him
non-partisan answers. Same with religion.....I will take them to Sunday
school even if I don't want to go...I don't have the right to make those
decisions for them.....I choose to expose them to different beliefs so
they can choose THEIR beliefs.....

amy\ I just find it ironic that Caren, who is a well-known Bush hater, has a nine year old daughter that also doesn't like Bush, all the while telling her that other's imposing their values isn't good. I just seriously doubt that with no help at all, Caren's daughter took in all the available info and made an informed opinion that Bush is not good. There's nothing wrong with this, mind you. I just found it funny in the context of what Caren was trying to tell her daughter.

jinglebells5555@yahoo.com (Jingle Bells) writes:
Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<BFR_b.117427$uV3.613903@attbi_s51>... jinglebells5555@yahoo.com (Jingle Bells) writes: He'll ask tough scientific questions and I remember once being quite proud of the answer I came up with only to have him say: "I don't believe you". The nerve! He didn't think I was lying, he just thought I was wrong because it didn't jibe with anything he had experienced in his 4 years. If you check the owner's manual that came with your 4 year old, it turns out that you aren't supposed to tell them that subatomic particles are really just probability distributions! Damn, I knew I should have read the manual first ;-) What makes his "scientific" questions tough is that even if I know the answer, I'm often at a loss for how to explain it to him. For example, he's asked questions like "When fire goes out, where does it go?", and "How do rockets fly?"

It's amazing. When my son was little he asked the classic "if the
earth is turning why don't we fall off." Of course the fact that I
couldn't answer it satisfactorily came partly down to the fact that I
can't really explain why gravity is; it just is. (And partly due to
the fact that every mass having gravitational attraction to every
other mass may be true, but it is very hard to believe.)
In the case of the rocket question, I made a meager attempt at an explanation before I remembered that we used to build and fly model rockets as kids. I told him that the next day we'd go out and buy a little rocket, put it together and then fly (launch) it when the weather was right. So that's what we did. I purposely bought one that required some assembly so that he could help put it together. That weekend we had a perfectly calm day, and we launched it off a frozen lake. I had forgotten how high those things can go. Now I don't know that he really has that much better of an understanding of how they work, but he sure was excited when he pressed the button and that thing whooshed into the sky so fast and so high we could barely see it.

Sounds like fun!

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:U6h%b.122896$jk2.537107@attbi_s53... jinglebells5555@yahoo.com (Jingle Bells) writes: Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<BFR_b.117427$uV3.613903@attbi_s51>... jinglebells5555@yahoo.com (Jingle Bells) writes: > He'll ask tough scientific questions and I remember once being quite > proud of the answer I came up with only to have him say: "I don't > believe you". The nerve! He didn't think I was lying, he just
thought > I was wrong because it didn't jibe with anything he had experienced
in > his 4 years. If you check the owner's manual that came with your 4 year old, it turns out that you aren't supposed to tell them that subatomic particles are really just probability distributions! Damn, I knew I should have read the manual first ;-) What makes his "scientific" questions tough is that even if I know the answer, I'm often at a loss for how to explain it to him. For example, he's asked questions like "When fire goes out, where does it go?", and "How do rockets fly?" It's amazing. When my son was little he asked the classic "if the earth is turning why don't we fall off." Of course the fact that I couldn't answer it satisfactorily came partly down to the fact that I can't really explain why gravity is; it just is. (And partly due to the fact that every mass having gravitational attraction to every other mass may be true, but it is very hard to believe.) In the case of the rocket question, I made a meager attempt at an explanation before I remembered that we used to build and fly model rockets as kids. I told him that the next day we'd go out and buy a little rocket, put it together and then fly (launch) it when the weather was right. So that's what we did. I purposely bought one that required some assembly so that he could help put it together. That weekend we had a perfectly calm day, and we launched it off a frozen lake. I had forgotten how high those things can go. Now I don't know that he really has that much better of an understanding of how they work, but he sure was excited when he pressed the button and that thing whooshed into the sky so fast and so high we could barely see it. Sounds like fun!

My son asks.....

Why does the seller want 20% down when the mortgage company will
finance 90% and can you loan me $40,000?

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> writes:
"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:U6h%b.122896$jk2.537107@attbi_s53... jinglebells5555@yahoo.com (Jingle Bells) writes: Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<BFR_b.117427$uV3.613903@attbi_s51>... > jinglebells5555@yahoo.com (Jingle Bells) writes: > > > He'll ask tough scientific questions and I remember once being quite > > proud of the answer I came up with only to have him say: "I don't > > believe you". The nerve! He didn't think I was lying, he just thought > > I was wrong because it didn't jibe with anything he had experienced in > > his 4 years. > > If you check the owner's manual that came with your 4 year old, it > turns out that you aren't supposed to tell them that subatomic > particles are really just probability distributions! Damn, I knew I should have read the manual first ;-) What makes his "scientific" questions tough is that even if I know the answer, I'm often at a loss for how to explain it to him. For example, he's asked questions like "When fire goes out, where does it go?", and "How do rockets fly?" It's amazing. When my son was little he asked the classic "if the earth is turning why don't we fall off." Of course the fact that I couldn't answer it satisfactorily came partly down to the fact that I can't really explain why gravity is; it just is. (And partly due to the fact that every mass having gravitational attraction to every other mass may be true, but it is very hard to believe.) In the case of the rocket question, I made a meager attempt at an explanation before I remembered that we used to build and fly model rockets as kids. I told him that the next day we'd go out and buy a little rocket, put it together and then fly (launch) it when the weather was right. So that's what we did. I purposely bought one that required some assembly so that he could help put it together. That weekend we had a perfectly calm day, and we launched it off a frozen lake. I had forgotten how high those things can go. Now I don't know that he really has that much better of an understanding of how they work, but he sure was excited when he pressed the button and that thing whooshed into the sky so fast and so high we could barely see it. Sounds like fun! My son asks..... Why does the seller want 20% down when the mortgage company will finance 90% and can you loan me $40,000?

OK. _That_ one I know how to answer!

Doug Anderson wrote: jinglebells5555@yahoo.com (Jingle Bells) writes: Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<BFR_b.117427$uV3.613903@attbi_s51>... jinglebells5555@yahoo.com (Jingle Bells) writes:> He'll ask tough scientific questions and I remember once being quite> proud of the answer I came up with only to have him say: "I don't> believe you". The nerve! He didn't think I was lying, he just thought> I was wrong because it didn't jibe with anything he had experienced in> his 4 years. If you check the owner's manual that came with your 4 year old, it turns out that you aren't supposed to tell them that subatomic particles are really just probability distributions! Damn, I knew I should have read the manual first ;-) What makes his "scientific" questions tough is that even if I know the answer, I'm often at a loss for how to explain it to him. For example, he's asked questions like "When fire goes out, where does it go?", and "How do rockets fly?" It's amazing. When my son was little he asked the classic "if the earth is turning why don't we fall off."

I'm not so sure some of us haven't....

> You'd love this little miss if you met her :-) I know that you don't have any children by choice, but do you dislike children in general? (Just in case you try to read into this, my question has nothing to do with your post)

No, I don't dislike children in general. In fact, I really don't dislike
children at all. It would be more accurate to say that I dislike parents
since THEY are the ones that take a perfectly good child and usually ruin
them.

There have been a few notable children that I have enjoyed being around.
Well mannered, polite, intelligent, QUIET, but usually parents have managed
to turn their offspring into creatures that are just one small step above a
baboon.

It's good that you have such a wonderful level of communication with your
daughter. I'm certain that she will benefit from your thought-provoking
conversations.

SD

"Shashay Doofray" <shashay@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<ihx%b.8504$i%.8215@fe21>... You'd love this little miss if you met her :-) I know that you don't have any children by choice, but do you dislike children in general? (Just in case you try to read into this, my question has nothing to do with your post) No, I don't dislike children in general. In fact, I really don't dislike children at all. It would be more accurate to say that I dislike parents since THEY are the ones that take a perfectly good child and usually ruin them. There have been a few notable children that I have enjoyed being around. Well mannered, polite, intelligent, QUIET, but usually parents have managed to turn their offspring into creatures that are just one small step above a baboon. It's good that you have such a wonderful level of communication with your daughter. I'm certain that she will benefit from your thought-provoking conversations. SD

Last night we were lying in bed together and she said, "Mom, I know
that it's really early to start worrying about this but I'm afraid of
growing up. I defintitely don't want to get my period and then I
think I want children but I don't know if I'll be a good mom."
Needless to say we had a long conversation after that statement.
Imagine what she'll be thinking about when she is 10. Okay, time to
get her up.