My wife and I have been married ten years and have two children of five and
three. I'm 38 and she's 35. We're both apparently healthy good-looking and
well-adjusted. She is European (I'll not say from where since I hope we can
repair this and don't want this posting to be too identifiable - I'm
blurring some details). We got married very quickly, perhaps in retrospect
too fast but in general things seemed largely fine. If you'd asked us both
three years ago about the marriage, I might have complained that she was
too cold and un-loving and she would have probably described me as being
too foul-tempered but basically nice.

Things began to go more downhill about two years ago. I had resigned from a
very well-paid job to start my own company. The company did well and now
employs 30 people etc..... At times I was inevitably stressed and brought
that stress home. There was a lot of screaming and shouting and we were
both worn down by it. I was upset because I felt she didn't seem to care
for me or the strains I was facing. At this stage she 'lost it' and began
to demand a separation and was calling a lot of friends and family to
denounce me and my behaviour. After a few weeks of threats, I 'accepted'
that I had a problem with my temper and agreed to go to an anger management
course. Together we started going to counselling. The one area we stalled
on was that she was convinced I was completely mad and seemed to believe
she had no issues to work on. Two years ago she believed I was a
psychopath. Later on I was accused of being Cyclothymic and then having
Borderline Personality Disorder! In each case she pretty quickly accepted
that this wasn't the case but she still seems determined to prove that I'm
mad (I'm actually a pretty nice guy!) and is now demanding that I see a
psychotherapist and get some pills.

At each stage along the way I've tried to convince her that we both have
some issues that we need to work on but she refuses to accept it. I think
she's highly unstable and very aggressive although I think(?) I still love
her. She threatens divorce or separation every week or two weeks and I've
pleaded with her many times to keep going for both our sakes and for the
children. Her coldness seems to have grown and three months ago she
announced that she wasn't in love with me and hadn't been for many years.

Less than a month later she'd decided she wanted to have another child and
later that week when I was sick, she wanted a divorce again. It seems like
every time I disagree with her or stand up to her she threatens divorce. At
times her threats can be seriously freaky and involve ruining my life,
taking all my money (!) and ensuring I'm never happy again. I never know
what she'll feel this week - she seems to change her mind with the weather
- one trivial and amusing example - we've had seven beds in ten years - its
like the Princess and the Pea! Even the newest one which cost $10,000 is
not enough for her. I never seem to satisfy her and she complains a lot
about most things I do, whether it be work, taking exercise etc etc.

I've spent a lot of time talking to her family and friends, both in Europe
and here to try and see a way through. Perhaps I've really been hoping that
one of them could achieve the breakthrough that I can't, and make her start
investing in the marriage and seeing the problems as a shared
responsibility. Most of those friends take the standard supportive line but
largely seem to accept her view of things. A few of the have suggested we
try a separation to see if that helps. Until now I've vigorously resisted
that.

Last week she threatened divorce again, the day before Valentine's day and
shortly before we were supposed to be taking a week's holiday with the
children. I think I've almost burnt up my will to keep going on this but
even so agreed later in the day that yes, I would go and see a therapist. I
decided, for the first time, that I needed some time and space to myself
and let her go away for a week with her parents. I checked myself into a
hotel in the mountains and spent a glorious but cold week, climbing,
trekking and thinking. I'm now back in town and she's due back tomorrow.
Coming home was awful for me - re-awakened all the bad thoughts and
associations I thought I'd got rid of in the mountains. For the first time
I realised I was dreading her coming back. I just didn't feel I had the
energy left to go on. Talked for the first time to my parents and my
friends (not hers) seriously. I should have been less embarrassed / ashamed
and done it long ago. Told them how I felt. I was shocked that in two
conversations, people I'm close to told me they think she's a selfish and
highly manipulative 'witch' and they'd been hoping I'd divorce her soon.
They say I deserve a loving companion in life and that my wife can never
care for anyone but herself.

I've decided to leave the home for a week or two - call it a trial
separation if you will. Even so my faith is seriously shaken - I'd always
believed I wanted the marriage to work - not sure what to so next? Would
welcome any advice and guidance

James Hogarth <james_hogarth@hotmail.com> writes:
My wife and I have been married ten years and have two children of five and three. I'm 38 and she's 35. We're both apparently healthy good-looking and well-adjusted. She is European (I'll not say from where since I hope we can repair this and don't want this posting to be too identifiable - I'm blurring some details). We got married very quickly, perhaps in retrospect too fast but in general things seemed largely fine. If you'd asked us both three years ago about the marriage, I might have complained that she was too cold and un-loving and she would have probably described me as being too foul-tempered but basically nice. Things began to go more downhill about two years ago. I had resigned from a very well-paid job to start my own company. The company did well and now employs 30 people etc..... At times I was inevitably stressed and brought that stress home. There was a lot of screaming and shouting and we were both worn down by it. I was upset because I felt she didn't seem to care for me or the strains I was facing. At this stage she 'lost it' and began to demand a separation and was calling a lot of friends and family to denounce me and my behaviour. After a few weeks of threats, I 'accepted' that I had a problem with my temper and agreed to go to an anger management course. Together we started going to counselling. The one area we stalled on was that she was convinced I was completely mad and seemed to believe she had no issues to work on. Two years ago she believed I was a psychopath. Later on I was accused of being Cyclothymic and then having Borderline Personality Disorder! In each case she pretty quickly accepted that this wasn't the case but she still seems determined to prove that I'm mad (I'm actually a pretty nice guy!) and is now demanding that I see a psychotherapist and get some pills.

What did your joint counselor have to say about your mental health,
and about your wife's attempt to shift your marital problems into
issues about your mental health?
At each stage along the way I've tried to convince her that we both have some issues that we need to work on but she refuses to accept it. I think she's highly unstable and very aggressive although I think(?) I still love her. She threatens divorce or separation every week or two weeks and I've pleaded with her many times to keep going for both our sakes and for the children. Her coldness seems to have grown and three months ago she announced that she wasn't in love with me and hadn't been for many years. Less than a month later she'd decided she wanted to have another child and later that week when I was sick, she wanted a divorce again. It seems like every time I disagree with her or stand up to her she threatens divorce. At times her threats can be seriously freaky and involve ruining my life, taking all my money (!) and ensuring I'm never happy again. I never know what she'll feel this week - she seems to change her mind with the weather - one trivial and amusing example - we've had seven beds in ten years - its like the Princess and the Pea! Even the newest one which cost $10,000 is not enough for her. I never seem to satisfy her and she complains a lot about most things I do, whether it be work, taking exercise etc etc.

Are you still in joint counseling? And if not, why not? Maybe you
need to find a better therapist if none of this stuff is being
addressed.
I've spent a lot of time talking to her family and friends, both in Europe and here to try and see a way through. Perhaps I've really been hoping that one of them could achieve the breakthrough that I can't, and make her start investing in the marriage and seeing the problems as a shared responsibility. Most of those friends take the standard supportive line but largely seem to accept her view of things. A few of the have suggested we try a separation to see if that helps. Until now I've vigorously resisted that.

It seems unlikely to help; I agree.
Last week she threatened divorce again, the day before Valentine's day and shortly before we were supposed to be taking a week's holiday with the children. I think I've almost burnt up my will to keep going on this but even so agreed later in the day that yes, I would go and see a therapist. I decided, for the first time, that I needed some time and space to myself and let her go away for a week with her parents. I checked myself into a hotel in the mountains and spent a glorious but cold week, climbing, trekking and thinking. I'm now back in town and she's due back tomorrow. Coming home was awful for me - re-awakened all the bad thoughts and associations I thought I'd got rid of in the mountains. For the first time I realised I was dreading her coming back. I just didn't feel I had the energy left to go on. Talked for the first time to my parents and my friends (not hers) seriously. I should have been less embarrassed / ashamed and done it long ago. Told them how I felt. I was shocked that in two conversations, people I'm close to told me they think she's a selfish and highly manipulative 'witch' and they'd been hoping I'd divorce her soon. They say I deserve a loving companion in life and that my wife can never care for anyone but herself. I've decided to leave the home for a week or two - call it a trial separation if you will. Even so my faith is seriously shaken - I'd always believed I wanted the marriage to work - not sure what to so next? Would welcome any advice and guidance

What ever happened to your joint counseling? That can be a great
place to try to sort out what problems are yours, what problems are
hers, and what problems are both of yours. And it can help clarify
your view on whether you wish to fix your marriage and remain in it,
or whether you want to give up on it.

Nowhere in your post did I read what you would like from your wife to
be happy with her, and what she would like from you to be happy with
you. Any attempt to fix things would involve finding this out, and
then deciding if you are each willing to provide what the other is
missing. It also helps to have a dispassionate third part (i.e. a
counselor) involved so that if one of you really is doing his or her
part and the other isn't recognizing that fact, the counselor can
point this out!

Doug Anderson wrote:
James Hogarth <james_hogarth@hotmail.com> writes: What did your joint counselor have to say about your mental health, and about your wife's attempt to shift your marital problems into issues about your mental health?
He laughed at the idea. He was a natural / alternative therapist that my
wife chose (my choice of a church counsellor was rejected). He spent a lot
of time on co-dependancy and encouraging me to 'let go'. I'm not really
sure what they said to her since we did very few sessions together. Seems
like they spent more time on acupuncture etc. We did some joint sessions
later on and she was completely hostile and resistant to ideas of both
having problems to fix.
Are you still in joint counseling? And if not, why not? Maybe you need to find a better therapist if none of this stuff is being addressed.

No - it was costing $150 a time and I had spent thousands by the time we
stopped - things seemed to be going better. I think you're right - I'll try
to find a better counsellor and make some better progress this time.
What ever happened to your joint counseling? That can be a great place to try to sort out what problems are yours, what problems are hers, and what problems are both of yours. And it can help clarify your view on whether you wish to fix your marriage and remain in it, or whether you want to give up on it. Nowhere in your post did I read what you would like from your wife to be happy with her, and what she would like from you to be happy with you. Any attempt to fix things would involve finding this out, and then deciding if you are each willing to provide what the other is missing. It also helps to have a dispassionate third part (i.e. a counselor) involved so that if one of you really is doing his or her part and the other isn't recognizing that fact, the counselor can point this out!

Again you're right - I've tried to talk to her about this but she gets so
aggressive and hostile - takes it as an opportunity to re-list all the
things that are sick or twisted about me. I even tried sketching what I
wanted as a mindmap - all hers proved was that I was a pretty insignificant
part of her life!

Thanks for the advice - I'll try to reawake the counselling

On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 23:44:51 +0000, James Hogarth
<james_hogarth@hotmail.com> wrote:
Doug Anderson wrote: James Hogarth <james_hogarth@hotmail.com> writes: What did your joint counselor have to say about your mental health, and about your wife's attempt to shift your marital problems into issues about your mental health?He laughed at the idea. He was a natural / alternative therapist that mywife chose (my choice of a church counsellor was rejected). He spent a lotof time on co-dependancy and encouraging me to 'let go'. I'm not reallysure what they said to her since we did very few sessions together. Seemslike they spent more time on acupuncture etc. We did some joint sessionslater on and she was completely hostile and resistant to ideas of bothhaving problems to fix. Are you still in joint counseling? And if not, why not? Maybe you need to find a better therapist if none of this stuff is being addressed.No - it was costing $150 a time and I had spent thousands by the time westopped - things seemed to be going better. I think you're right - I'll tryto find a better counsellor and make some better progress this time. What ever happened to your joint counseling? That can be a great place to try to sort out what problems are yours, what problems are hers, and what problems are both of yours. And it can help clarify your view on whether you wish to fix your marriage and remain in it, or whether you want to give up on it. Nowhere in your post did I read what you would like from your wife to be happy with her, and what she would like from you to be happy with you. Any attempt to fix things would involve finding this out, and then deciding if you are each willing to provide what the other is missing. It also helps to have a dispassionate third part (i.e. a counselor) involved so that if one of you really is doing his or her part and the other isn't recognizing that fact, the counselor can point this out!Again you're right - I've tried to talk to her about this but she gets soaggressive and hostile - takes it as an opportunity to re-list all thethings that are sick or twisted about me. I even tried sketching what Iwanted as a mindmap - all hers proved was that I was a pretty insignificantpart of her life!Thanks for the advice - I'll try to reawake the counselling

Sounds like your wife is doing a **** load of projecting *her* issues
on you.

1. Do not leave home.

2. Retain an attorney to get legal advice.

3. Do some snooping around to find out what she is up to.

4. Take valium or whatever people take to calm down. Maybe valerian
root.

i

In article <1077487946.48991.0@doris.uk.clara.net>, James Hogarth wrote: My wife and I have been married ten years and have two children of five and three. I'm 38 and she's 35. We're both apparently healthy good-looking and well-adjusted. She is European (I'll not say from where since I hope we can repair this and don't want this posting to be too identifiable - I'm blurring some details). We got married very quickly, perhaps in retrospect too fast but in general things seemed largely fine. If you'd asked us both three years ago about the marriage, I might have complained that she was too cold and un-loving and she would have probably described me as being too foul-tempered but basically nice. Things began to go more downhill about two years ago. I had resigned from a very well-paid job to start my own company. The company did well and now employs 30 people etc..... At times I was inevitably stressed and brought that stress home. There was a lot of screaming and shouting and we were both worn down by it. I was upset because I felt she didn't seem to care for me or the strains I was facing. At this stage she 'lost it' and began to demand a separation and was calling a lot of friends and family to denounce me and my behaviour. After a few weeks of threats, I 'accepted' that I had a problem with my temper and agreed to go to an anger management course. Together we started going to counselling. The one area we stalled on was that she was convinced I was completely mad and seemed to believe she had no issues to work on. Two years ago she believed I was a psychopath. Later on I was accused of being Cyclothymic and then having Borderline Personality Disorder! In each case she pretty quickly accepted that this wasn't the case but she still seems determined to prove that I'm mad (I'm actually a pretty nice guy!) and is now demanding that I see a psychotherapist and get some pills. At each stage along the way I've tried to convince her that we both have some issues that we need to work on but she refuses to accept it. I think she's highly unstable and very aggressive although I think(?) I still love her. She threatens divorce or separation every week or two weeks and I've pleaded with her many times to keep going for both our sakes and for the children. Her coldness seems to have grown and three months ago she announced that she wasn't in love with me and hadn't been for many years. Less than a month later she'd decided she wanted to have another child and later that week when I was sick, she wanted a divorce again. It seems like every time I disagree with her or stand up to her she threatens divorce. At times her threats can be seriously freaky and involve ruining my life, taking all my money (!) and ensuring I'm never happy again. I never know what she'll feel this week - she seems to change her mind with the weather - one trivial and amusing example - we've had seven beds in ten years - its like the Princess and the Pea! Even the newest one which cost $10,000 is not enough for her. I never seem to satisfy her and she complains a lot about most things I do, whether it be work, taking exercise etc etc. I've spent a lot of time talking to her family and friends, both in Europe and here to try and see a way through. Perhaps I've really been hoping that one of them could achieve the breakthrough that I can't, and make her start investing in the marriage and seeing the problems as a shared responsibility. Most of those friends take the standard supportive line but largely seem to accept her view of things. A few of the have suggested we try a separation to see if that helps. Until now I've vigorously resisted that. Last week she threatened divorce again, the day before Valentine's day and shortly before we were supposed to be taking a week's holiday with the children. I think I've almost burnt up my will to keep going on this but even so agreed later in the day that yes, I would go and see a therapist. I decided, for the first time, that I needed some time and space to myself and let her go away for a week with her parents. I checked myself into a hotel in the mountains and spent a glorious but cold week, climbing, trekking and thinking. I'm now back in town and she's due back tomorrow. Coming home was awful for me - re-awakened all the bad thoughts and associations I thought I'd got rid of in the mountains. For the first time I realised I was dreading her coming back. I just didn't feel I had the energy left to go on. Talked for the first time to my parents and my friends (not hers) seriously. I should have been less embarrassed / ashamed and done it long ago. Told them how I felt. I was shocked that in two conversations, people I'm close to told me they think she's a selfish and highly manipulative 'witch' and they'd been hoping I'd divorce her soon. They say I deserve a loving companion in life and that my wife can never care for anyone but herself. I've decided to leave the home for a week or two - call it a trial separation if you will. Even so my faith is seriously shaken - I'd always believed I wanted the marriage to work - not sure what to so next? Would welcome any advice and guidance

Rauni <ladywolf@newsguy.com> writes:
Sounds like your wife is doing a **** load of projecting *her* issues on you.

It does sound like that, and its quite possible. I always try to
remember that we just have his side though!

Doug Anderson wrote:
Rauni <ladywolf@newsguy.com> writes: Sounds like your wife is doing a **** load of projecting *her* issues on you. It does dysfunctionalat, and its quite possible. I always try to remember that we just have his side though!

Thats true - you don't have her side. Her side would probably read:

"My husband has an awful temper which frightens and threatens me and has
killed all my love and feelings for him. I don't feel safe and he is always
demanding more affection and love from me. He doesn't seem to understand
that I can't start to love until he learns to be calm and stable. Deep down
I'm frightened he's not normal, OK - he's not mad but I'm convinced he
needs serious help"

Actually on second thoughts she never be able to write that sort of coherent
paragraph. It would come out as a flood of aggression and complaint. Every
day you spoke to her the story would change - many days (if not most) she
would refuse to talk about it and claim everything was fine. Suddenly you
would get a call from her announcing she'd had enough and I was
pschyologically disturbed with [insert latest condition found on
psychotherapy website].

The odd thing is I've begun to realise / believe that I'm married to an
unstable deadbeat. I start to understand the postings I see here from women
pleading for help with dysfunctional husbands that hang around the house
all day in a string vest, do nothing and verbally abuse their wives,
blaming them for everything.

When my wife and I met, she was still in College. I was a Wall Street hot
shot raking in more money than is decent and frankly hating my job. In some
ways I've changed (and I hope grown). I've become more religious and have
resigned from a crazy job to pursue my own life / start a company - its
worked very well and there's nothing there to threaten her. I do admit to
having a bad temper but I've worked on in hard in therapy and even she
admits its got a lot better.

She, when we met was a college student, struggling with a Business Course
she hated and flunking exams time after time. It became increasingly clear
she had very little direction in life although that didn't stop me loving
her. She had always wanted to be an 'actor' but never seemed to have the
drive to pursue it. On finishing college (which I paid for) she hung around
the house and her main activities seemed to be sleeping and compulsive
shopping. Every so often she would go through the motions of looking for a
job but never worked.

In some ways she became the bored rich-mans wife and children were the
eventual solution to allow her to hide from her problems again. Marriage /
children and everything since has become her prozac pill to allow her to
hide from something she can't face. I know I can't live her life for her
and she has a lot of things to fix. Unfortunately I don't want to remove
her crutches since with children and my life more people will be hurt and
injured than just her.

What worries me is that my friends / parents - all sober god-fearing(!) folk
are so down on her and convinced there is no answer and I should escape.
They think I'm a patsy but with all I have to face with a new and growing
compnay, I'm not sure that divorce is something I can face going through.

As an earlier poster suggested, proper counselling at least will help with
some of the issues - I'll try that at some stage.

In the meantime I'm packing my bags and heading out for a few weeks. Hope
that shocks her into relaising what a dangerous game she's playing. If not
- well I suppose that there's little I can do. Wish me luck!

James Hogarth <james_hogarth@hotmail.com> writes:
Doug Anderson wrote: Rauni <ladywolf@newsguy.com> writes: Sounds like your wife is doing a **** load of projecting *her* issues on you. It does dysfunctionalat, and its quite possible. I always try to remember that we just have his side though! Thats true - you don't have her side. Her side would probably read: "My husband has an awful temper which frightens and threatens me and has killed all my love and feelings for him. I don't feel safe and he is always demanding more affection and love from me. He doesn't seem to understand that I can't start to love until he learns to be calm and stable. Deep down I'm frightened he's not normal, OK - he's not mad but I'm convinced he needs serious help"

Kudos to you for trying to see her point of view. To the extent to
which those complaints are true (or even close to true) they are quite
legitimate.
snip extensive criticisms

You seem to have no respect for your wife. Perhaps she deserves none;
I don't know. But how can you have a good marriage and loving
relationship with someone for whom you have no respect?
As an earlier poster suggested, proper counselling at least will help with some of the issues - I'll try that at some stage.

(that may have been me)
In the meantime I'm packing my bags and heading out for a few weeks. Hope that shocks her into relaising what a dangerous game she's playing. If not - well I suppose that there's little I can do. Wish me luck!

Well, that isn't the tactic I'd have taken, but maybe it will work. I
think trying to get someone to do what you want by leaving them alone
in the hope that "they'll see" is way too indirect. They usually see
_something_ but not necessarily what you'd hoped.

Doug Anderson wrote: Kudos to you for trying to see her point of view. To the extent to which those complaints are true (or even close to true) they are quite legitimate.

Agreed and I've accepted that and done a lot of work on them - more to do
still whether we stay together or not in the long-term. I'm determined to
use this time apart to work on some of these things and become more
functional and easier to be with.
You seem to have no respect for your wife. Perhaps she deserves none; I don't know. But how can you have a good marriage and loving relationship with someone for whom you have no respect?

Yep - the counsellor said the same thing and I'd have to accept its true -
something I need to work on too. When and if we get back together I'm going
to spend some time re-reading 'The Seven Principles for Making Marriage
Work' - The Gottman book which lays out a lot of things we need to do
better.
In the meantime I'm packing my bags and heading out for a few weeks. Hope that shocks her into relaising what a dangerous game she's playing. If not - well I suppose that there's little I can do. Wish me luck! Well, that isn't the tactic I'd have taken, but maybe it will work. I think trying to get someone to do what you want by leaving them alone in the hope that "they'll see" is way too indirect. They usually see _something_ but not necessarily what you'd hoped.

True - but none of our discussions ever seemed to lead anywhere - I need to
find some fresh positive energy before coming back. She needs to find
something and what that is, is for her to decide / reconcile herself to.
I've spent to long trying to persuade / direct her thoughts. Perhaps
wrongly I feel 'washed out' and maybe its better to back off and give her
some time and space. If what she decides is that she doesn't want to fix
the marriage then that is her decision which I'll respect, miserable though
it will no doubt make me feel.

I'm hoping she'll decide that another try is worth a go but I want that
thought and effort to come freely from her not being pushed by me or
others.

Thanks for all the advice - it'll be hard for the next few days and weeks
and I appreciate your thoughts and advice. I admire you for spending time
on the life of a stranger - too often I'm too 'busy' to do the same for
others.

On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 04:10:08 GMT, Doug Anderson
<ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote:
Rauni <ladywolf@newsguy.com> writes: Sounds like your wife is doing a **** load of projecting *her* issues on you.It does sound like that, and its quite possible. I always try toremember that we just have his side though!
True....
But I have seen this kind of projection up close and personal. It is
really ugly.

James Hogarth <james_hogarth@hotmail.com> wrote:
I've decided to leave the home for a week or two - call it a trial separation if you will. Even so my faith is seriously shaken - I'd always believed I wanted the marriage to work - not sure what to so next? Would welcome any advice and guidance

Usually I recommend marriagebuilders.com. But if you are reporting
accurately, your W seems to be quite unstable. The thing about the beds
- whew! Do you want to stay married? How are your children doing with
all this conflict and angst?

The one thing I would say is that you really do need to get a handle on
your temper. Whether that will improve this relationship or not, it
will be very important in every relationship in your life.

James Hogarth <james_hogarth@hotmail.com> writes:
Doug Anderson wrote: Kudos to you for trying to see her point of view. To the extent to which those complaints are true (or even close to true) they are quite legitimate. Agreed and I've accepted that and done a lot of work on them - more to do still whether we stay together or not in the long-term. I'm determined to use this time apart to work on some of these things and become more functional and easier to be with.

Good idea!
You seem to have no respect for your wife. Perhaps she deserves none; I don't know. But how can you have a good marriage and loving relationship with someone for whom you have no respect? Yep - the counsellor said the same thing and I'd have to accept its true - something I need to work on too. When and if we get back together I'm going to spend some time re-reading 'The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work' - The Gottman book which lays out a lot of things we need to do better.

Gottman is gut. Also, while you're reading things, a totally
different matter which is interesting from the theoretical point of
view is Schnarch's book "Passionate Marriage." He has a lot to say
about why couples get trapped in situations in which they are both
unhappy with each other. I found both Gottman and Schnarch very
helpful when I was trying to understand the problems in my marriage!

And I still find their viewpoints helpful ones to think about!
In the meantime I'm packing my bags and heading out for a few weeks. Hope that shocks her into relaising what a dangerous game she's playing. If not - well I suppose that there's little I can do. Wish me luck! Well, that isn't the tactic I'd have taken, but maybe it will work. I think trying to get someone to do what you want by leaving them alone in the hope that "they'll see" is way too indirect. They usually see _something_ but not necessarily what you'd hoped. True - but none of our discussions ever seemed to lead anywhere - I need to find some fresh positive energy before coming back.

Yeah, that isn't surprising. But that's why you need professional
help.
She needs to find something and what that is, is for her to decide / reconcile herself to. I've spent to long trying to persuade / direct her thoughts.

Right. You should get completely out of that line of work!
Perhaps wrongly I feel 'washed out' and maybe its better to back off and give her some time and space. If what she decides is that she doesn't want to fix the marriage then that is her decision which I'll respect, miserable though it will no doubt make me feel. I'm hoping she'll decide that another try is worth a go but I want that thought and effort to come freely from her not being pushed by me or others. Thanks for all the advice - it'll be hard for the next few days and weeks and I appreciate your thoughts and advice. I admire you for spending time on the life of a stranger - too often I'm too 'busy' to do the same for others.

Well, the people who frequent this newsgroup are interested in
relationships. That is why lots of us are here, so there is some
self-interest involved!

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:pnd685zmr0.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu... Gottman is gut. Also, while you're reading things, a totally different matter which is interesting from the theoretical point of view is Schnarch's book "Passionate Marriage." He has a lot to say about why couples get trapped in situations in which they are both unhappy with each other. I found both Gottman and Schnarch very helpful when I was trying to understand the problems in my marriage!

Did they also help you resolve them? (and, if so, how?)
I'm finding that understanding how we got to where we are, which we're doing
a fair job of, I think, isn't helping much with moving forward.

Ted

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> writes:
"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:pnd685zmr0.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu... Gottman is gut. Also, while you're reading things, a totally different matter which is interesting from the theoretical point of view is Schnarch's book "Passionate Marriage." He has a lot to say about why couples get trapped in situations in which they are both unhappy with each other. I found both Gottman and Schnarch very helpful when I was trying to understand the problems in my marriage! Did they also help you resolve them? (and, if so, how?) I'm finding that understanding how we got to where we are, which we're doing a fair job of, I think, isn't helping much with moving forward.

Yes, they did. But I am married to someone with whom I am willing to
share my inner life. And she also recognized that our marriage was
not in good shape and wanted to improve things.

As far as how; that is more complicated. Gottman helped me understand
what kind of behavior is toxic to relationships and how to do a better
job avoiding it. (As well as what is positive, but I really already
knew that.)

Schnarch was useful in a lot of ways. He is the only pop-psychology
guy I've read whose viewpoint seems sufficiently general to be
believable about how family-of-origin issues surface in
relationships. I don't know _exactly_ how it helped, but reading his
book _was_ helpful.

>I'm finding that understanding how we got to where we are, which we're doinga fair job of, I think, isn't helping much with moving forward.Ted

Ted, that, basically, has been the finding of treatment outcome study after
treatment outcome study --- that psychological treatment that focusses on why
things happen is psychologically rewarding for many people but it does not
promote change in behavior. That is why there has been so much movement from
the psychodynamic treatment model to the cognitive-behavioral model. The
cognitive-behavioral model is the one that has demonstated the most
effectiveness. Across all of the psychodynamic approaches the results are
pretty much the same: 1/3 of the people report things getting better, 1/3 stay
the same, and 1/3 report things get worse -- which is exactly the same ratio as
people who don't get therapy.

It is the major reason I left psychology. I was (primarily) trained in the
psychodynamic traditions. This was in the early to mid 80's when the treatment
outcome studies were first coming out. By the late 1980's I was growing
concerned about what I was seeing in the research. I left the field to stay at
home with the kids, and when I decided to go back to work I realized that I
couldn't, in good conscience, go back and do what I did before, as I no longer
believed in the efficacy of it. My choice could have been to go back and get
training in more of the cognitive-behavioral approaches, but I decided to go in
a different direction altogether.

Anyway, the research backs up your observation: simply knowing how you got to
where you are, and focussing on how you got to where you are, does not seem to
help with moving forward.

Sheila

James Hogarth wrote: My wife and I have been married ten years and have two children of five and three. I'm 38 and she's 35. We're both apparently healthy good-looking and well-adjusted. She is European (I'll not say from where since I hope we can repair this and don't want this posting to be too identifiable - I'm blurring some details). We got married very quickly, perhaps in retrospect too fast but in general things seemed largely fine. If you'd asked us both three years ago about the marriage, I might have complained that she was too cold and un-loving and she would have probably described me as being too foul-tempered but basically nice. Things began to go more downhill about two years ago. I had resigned from a very well-paid job to start my own company. The company did well and now employs 30 people etc..... At times I was inevitably stressed and brought that stress home. There was a lot of screaming and shouting and we were both worn down by it. I was upset because I felt she didn't seem to care for me or the strains I was facing. At this stage she 'lost it' and began to demand a separation and was calling a lot of friends and family to denounce me and my behaviour. After a few weeks of threats, I 'accepted' that I had a problem with my temper and agreed to go to an anger management course. Together we started going to counselling. The one area we stalled on was that she was convinced I was completely mad and seemed to believe she had no issues to work on. Two years ago she believed I was a psychopath. Later on I was accused of being Cyclothymic and then having Borderline Personality Disorder! In each case she pretty quickly accepted that this wasn't the case but she still seems determined to prove that I'm mad (I'm actually a pretty nice guy!) and is now demanding that I see a psychotherapist and get some pills. At each stage along the way I've tried to convince her that we both have some issues that we need to work on but she refuses to accept it. I think she's highly unstable and very aggressive although I think(?) I still love her. She threatens divorce or separation every week or two weeks and I've pleaded with her many times to keep going for both our sakes and for the children. Her coldness seems to have grown and three months ago she announced that she wasn't in love with me and hadn't been for many years. Less than a month later she'd decided she wanted to have another child and later that week when I was sick, she wanted a divorce again. It seems like every time I disagree with her or stand up to her she threatens divorce. At times her threats can be seriously freaky and involve ruining my life, taking all my money (!) and ensuring I'm never happy again. I never know what she'll feel this week - she seems to change her mind with the weather - one trivial and amusing example - we've had seven beds in ten years - its like the Princess and the Pea! Even the newest one which cost $10,000 is not enough for her. I never seem to satisfy her and she complains a lot about most things I do, whether it be work, taking exercise etc etc. I've spent a lot of time talking to her family and friends, both in Europe and here to try and see a way through. Perhaps I've really been hoping that one of them could achieve the breakthrough that I can't, and make her start investing in the marriage and seeing the problems as a shared responsibility. Most of those friends take the standard supportive line but largely seem to accept her view of things. A few of the have suggested we try a separation to see if that helps. Until now I've vigorously resisted that. Last week she threatened divorce again, the day before Valentine's day and shortly before we were supposed to be taking a week's holiday with the children. I think I've almost burnt up my will to keep going on this but even so agreed later in the day that yes, I would go and see a therapist. I decided, for the first time, that I needed some time and space to myself and let her go away for a week with her parents. I checked myself into a hotel in the mountains and spent a glorious but cold week, climbing, trekking and thinking. I'm now back in town and she's due back tomorrow. Coming home was awful for me - re-awakened all the bad thoughts and associations I thought I'd got rid of in the mountains. For the first time I realised I was dreading her coming back. I just didn't feel I had the energy left to go on. Talked for the first time to my parents and my friends (not hers) seriously. I should have been less embarrassed / ashamed and done it long ago. Told them how I felt. I was shocked that in two conversations, people I'm close to told me they think she's a selfish and highly manipulative 'witch' and they'd been hoping I'd divorce her soon. They say I deserve a loving companion in life and that my wife can never care for anyone but herself. I've decided to leave the home for a week or two - call it a trial separation if you will. Even so my faith is seriously shaken - I'd always believed I wanted the marriage to work - not sure what to so next? Would welcome any advice and guidance

James, if you really, truly have been living as you've described then I
think you should indeed find a very good counsellor and work with him to
find out why you've been putting up with this treatment from your wife for
so long.

Tai