Here's my story.

I am 27 years old and have been married for about a year and a half.
(No kids though.) And already I am contemplating getting a divorce.

My wife and I started out as close friends who were there for one
another during hard times. In retrospect, I think perhaps we should
have stayed just friends. I think I allowed the relationship to
progress beyond that because I knew she wanted it and because it made
me feel good to make her happy.

I seem to have a history of burying doubts and negative emotions... a
history of convincing myself that I want a particular thing if it
makes someone else happy. (I am working on getting over this.) This
doubt-burying process ran almost beneath awareness for a long time.
And I was able to be in control of how I felt, able to always be solid
and secure in what I was doing.

Well at some point last year I made a conscious commitment to no
longer bury all of my negative emotions, and to no longer let my head
dictate how I felt about things. I wanted to actually feel what was
in my heart... not decide how I should feel and force myself to go
with that. I followed through on that commitment, and as a result I
lost all control of my doubts. And these are not small, simple
doubts. They amount to an overwhelming feeling of 'wrongness' about
us. And they have brought us to this point.

We have both cried a great deal over the last few months or so, and we
have been seeing a pastoral counselor once a week since November. I
know that marriage is hard, sometimes grueling work, but this
situation amounts to more than a "rough patch". I do not feel happy
here, and can no longer convince myself that I am. My feelings are
real, and they refuse to be pushed aside again. I often wake up
shaking because something inside me screams that I'm not supposed to
stay here. I can no longer get my heart back into this relationship,
and feel that maybe it has not truly been involved for a long time. I
am terrified... TERRIFIED... of hurting my wife. The knowledge that
she is now hurting every day because of this situation has not done
good things for my opinion of myself. At the same time any pain
resulting from divorce would pale in comparison to the long-term pain
resulting from a half-assed marriage. If my heart is not in this then
my staying here is not fair to either one of us. Knowing that has
helped me to face this, to tell my wife that I'm not sure I want to be
married to her anymore. I do not want her to look back twenty years
from now and feel like her life has been wasted on a marriage that was
not meant to last.

Right now we are getting along well... as friends. We are still
living together, trying to figure out what happens next, if we can be
more than friends. I want the best for my wife... all the happiness
there is to be had... but I am not certain that I am the one to give
it to her. I want the friendship to last. I will always want that.
But I do not feel right in this marriage. I really am trying to do
what's right for both of us in the long run.

At the same time, I am not trying to glorify my feelings with a
healthy dose of "for the best" speech. It is my selfishness that has
raised this issue, my feelings of unhappiness. My wife knows who she
wants, and that person is me. She has been as understanding as
possible through all of this, even insisting that it is our combined
issues that have brought us here, not just mine. I wish more than
anything that there was a way to go through this without causing her
pain.

There is more. In the midst of this crisis, I fell in love with
another woman, a woman who is a good friend to both of us and has been
for a while. The other woman and I have spoken about my feelings, and
she is very much in love with me as well. Before I go any further,
although the physical attraction between us is very strong, I have not
really allowed this other-woman situation to manifest itself
physically. This does not make me feel all that great however, as my
having these feelings is bad enough, and much of my heart is very much
with this other woman. Everything just seems so... right... about
her. Like she is all that I have ever looked for, and like we have
that potentially dangerous "meant to be" thing going on. She feels
guilty about being in love with the husband of one of her closest
friends, but we're both finding it impossible to deny our feelings for
one another. I guess this extra situation seems pretty low; on the
outside I can imagine it looking that way. On the inside, when your
heart takes a flying leap at someone, common sense tends to take a
back seat for a while. For what it's worth, I am not trying to offer
excuses, only explanations.

I have no plans to tell my wife of my feelings for someone else, for I
cannot see any good coming from such. I have no urge to hurt her
more.

Needless to say, I am drowning in guilt and despair. I cannot stay
with my wife strictly out of fear of hurting her, that much I know.
Yet I am haunted by the image of her lying in bed alone, reaching for
someone who is not there. Additionally, the other woman's heart is
now wrapped up in me as well. Whatever choice I make, someone I care
about gets hurt. Badly. I have always lived in fear of hurting
others, and now I can see no other way out. I have somehow crafted my
own personal hell.

Looking back, I am not sure that I could have done things differently
(every choice I made felt right somehow, out of duty or love), but I
take full responsibility for the horror of this situation. I am
ashamed for burying my emotions. I am ashamed for falling in love
with someone else and getting another person emotionally involved in
this crisis. I am ashamed for the hurt I have caused people thus far.

And I am scared. I know I am slime... berate me for such if you feel
the need. I am proud of none of this. I am praying for answers and
doing all that I can to see the right way out of this. I never set
out to hurt anyone.

I am near panic. Please help me.

Dave

On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 10:52:43 -0800, Dave wrote:


Here's my story. I am 27 years old and have been married for about a year and a half. (No kids though.) And already I am contemplating getting a divorce. My wife and I started out as close friends who were there for one another during hard times. In retrospect, I think perhaps we should have stayed just friends. I think I allowed the relationship to progress beyond that because I knew she wanted it and because it made me feel good to make her happy. I seem to have a history of burying doubts and negative emotions... a history of convincing myself that I want a particular thing if it makes someone else happy. (I am working on getting over this.) This doubt-burying process ran almost beneath awareness for a long time. And I was able to be in control of how I felt, able to always be solid and secure in what I was doing. Well at some point last year I made a conscious commitment to no longer bury all of my negative emotions, and to no longer let my head dictate how I felt about things. I wanted to actually feel what was in my heart... not decide how I should feel and force myself to go with that. I followed through on that commitment, and as a result I lost all control of my doubts. And these are not small, simple doubts. They amount to an overwhelming feeling of 'wrongness' about us. And they have brought us to this point. We have both cried a great deal over the last few months or so, and we have been seeing a pastoral counselor once a week since November. I know that marriage is hard, sometimes grueling work, but this situation amounts to more than a "rough patch". I do not feel happy here, and can no longer convince myself that I am. My feelings are real, and they refuse to be pushed aside again. I often wake up shaking because something inside me screams that I'm not supposed to stay here. I can no longer get my heart back into this relationship, and feel that maybe it has not truly been involved for a long time. I am terrified... TERRIFIED... of hurting my wife. The knowledge that she is now hurting every day because of this situation has not done good things for my opinion of myself. At the same time any pain resulting from divorce would pale in comparison to the long-term pain resulting from a half-assed marriage. If my heart is not in this then my staying here is not fair to either one of us. Knowing that has helped me to face this, to tell my wife that I'm not sure I want to be married to her anymore. I do not want her to look back twenty years from now and feel like her life has been wasted on a marriage that was not meant to last. Right now we are getting along well... as friends. We are still living together, trying to figure out what happens next, if we can be more than friends. I want the best for my wife... all the happiness there is to be had... but I am not certain that I am the one to give it to her. I want the friendship to last. I will always want that. But I do not feel right in this marriage. I really am trying to do what's right for both of us in the long run. At the same time, I am not trying to glorify my feelings with a healthy dose of "for the best" speech. It is my selfishness that has raised this issue, my feelings of unhappiness. My wife knows who she wants, and that person is me. She has been as understanding as possible through all of this, even insisting that it is our combined issues that have brought us here, not just mine. I wish more than anything that there was a way to go through this without causing her pain. There is more. In the midst of this crisis, I fell in love with another woman, a woman who is a good friend to both of us and has been for a while. The other woman and I have spoken about my feelings, and she is very much in love with me as well. Before I go any further, although the physical attraction between us is very strong, I have not really allowed this other-woman situation to manifest itself physically. This does not make me feel all that great however, as my having these feelings is bad enough, and much of my heart is very much with this other woman. Everything just seems so... right... about her. Like she is all that I have ever looked for, and like we have that potentially dangerous "meant to be" thing going on. She feels guilty about being in love with the husband of one of her closest friends, but we're both finding it impossible to deny our feelings for one another. I guess this extra situation seems pretty low; on the outside I can imagine it looking that way. On the inside, when your heart takes a flying leap at someone, common sense tends to take a back seat for a while. For what it's worth, I am not trying to offer excuses, only explanations. I have no plans to tell my wife of my feelings for someone else, for I cannot see any good coming from such. I have no urge to hurt her more. Needless to say, I am drowning in guilt and despair. I cannot stay with my wife strictly out of fear of hurting her, that much I know. Yet I am haunted by the image of her lying in bed alone, reaching for someone who is not there. Additionally, the other woman's heart is now wrapped up in me as well. Whatever choice I make, someone I care about gets hurt. Badly. I have always lived in fear of hurting others, and now I can see no other way out. I have somehow crafted my own personal hell. Looking back, I am not sure that I could have done things differently (every choice I made felt right somehow, out of duty or love), but I take full responsibility for the horror of this situation. I am ashamed for burying my emotions. I am ashamed for falling in love with someone else and getting another person emotionally involved in this crisis. I am ashamed for the hurt I have caused people thus far. And I am scared. I know I am slime... berate me for such if you feel the need. I am proud of none of this. I am praying for answers and doing all that I can to see the right way out of this. I never set out to hurt anyone. I am near panic. Please help me. Dave

Dear near Panic;

I think you'd like someone to say that it's better to leave your Wife than
to attempt to repair a broken relationship. Well sorry - not from me!

You are correct to feel badly, and quite frankly I haven't a clue what you
CAN do to make yourself feel better, other than to realize you in essence
lied to your Wife, and she placed her hopes, dreams, love, and heart in
your hands based on that lie.

I'm a compassionate and understanding person, and normally
non-judgmental, but you have exceeded the bounds of my compassion.

However I have some clues, one being that I think you are confusing love
with lust. That feeling in your gut is the result of hormones, not 'love',
and lust always fades in time. If you do hook up with the new Woman,
it's just a matter of time before you'll move on to the next.

Good luck, and I hope I'm wrong about you!

Diana

"Dave" <doubtingdave99@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:25b7a6e5.0402201052.75912d3f@posting.google.c om... I am near panic. Please help me.

Take some deep breaths.
Read over what you wrote us. Slowly. Outloud.
Did anything in it stand out?

Ted

Dave wrote:
I am near panic. Please help me.


Well, Dave, I gotta say, after reading your post, I can say that,
except for 'the other woman is my wife's good friend' part, you
just wrote a post that my husband would have written 9 years ago.
And it's not a pretty situation to be in, for any of the partici-
pants.

There are a few specific things that I would like to comment on.

First, I see your situation mirroring my husband's in that you
don't seem to feel your marriage is horrible, that your wife is
not willing to work with you on it, that things are sooooo bad
that people you know are wondering why the heck you're still in
the marriage. What I see, instead, is that your marriage is just
'there' and, IMO, that's something that can possibly be 'fixed'.
Instead of attempting to 'fix' it, you've looked outside the
marriage and gotten involved with someone else, leaving you with
little incentive to work on your marriage and, instead, actually
damaging your marriage more. And, please, don't say that because
your wife doesn't know about the OW, you're not damaging your
marriage. I spent 9 months not knowing about my husband's mis-
tress and when I *did* find out about his affair, I knew exactly
when it had all began because I knew exactly when things started
going bad in our marriage. So, even when the wife doesn't know of
the affair, the marriage can and will be affected.

Second, IMO, your commitment to your wife should be your first
priority. No matter what your reasons for getting married were,
you married your wife and, IMO, it's imperative that you honor
that commitment above any subsequent commitments you make to
another person. By that I mean that you can't place your wife's
feelings and the OW's feelings on the same level, you can't view
both relationships at the same time and in the same way and as
having the same priority. People don't get away with that in the
'real' world and I don't believe that they should get away with
it when it comes to relationships. Let me ask you this. Do you
do this when it comes to your work? If someone comes to you and
says 'I need X by Monday,' and then another person comes to you
two hours later and says 'I need Y by Monday,' do you agree to
both even though you know you can't provide both X and Y by Mon-
day and then worry about which one you're going to do? Or when
a friend asks you to come to a party they're giving and you say
'Sure,' when another friend asks you to a party the same night,
what do you do? If the answers to those questions are 'I honor
the first commitment I made', then you should understand what
I'm saying. If the answers to those questions are 'It depends',
well, I have to say I don't particularly want to do business
with you, I don't particularly want to be your friend, and, if
I were the OW, I would be very leery of what the future with you
would hold. If you do not honor this very important commitment you
made to your wife, how in the heck do you think you can honor any
future commitment to the OW?

Third, be honest with yourself. Were you seriously contemplating
ending your marriage before you became involved with the OW? I
don't mean were you unhappy or discontented or even that the thought
hadn't crossed your mind, but were you ready to end it? Had you
talked with your wife about your feelings? And, if the OW were
suddenly taken out of the picture entirely, would you still end
the marriage and go to live on your own, alone, with no one to
immediately fill your heart and your bed?

Fourth (and, excuse me if this gets a little harsh. It's an area
I feel *very* strongly about), how unfair is it that you are keeping
such a big piece of information from your wife? Information that
*directly* affects her and your relationship? Information that, if
she had, she might decide that she no longer wants to be married to
*you* and a decision that she has the right to make, IMO, and not
have made for her by you withholding information. And how futile is
it to be going to counseling when you're not telling anyone what all
is actually going on? It's like going to the emergency room and telling
the doctor to focus on fixing your broken leg while you have a gaping
chest wound that you're hiding. IMO, going to counseling in your
situation is dishonest and self-serving. IMO, you don't have a desire
to fix your relationship, you just want to look like you do.

Fifth, I find your protests of not wanting to hurt your wife quite
hollow when you have done probably the worst thing in the world you
could do the woman and that is fall in love with another. When someone
says 'I don't want to hurt you' and then hauls off and hits you with a
baseball bat, they're not being truthful. They just want the aftermath
to be 'Oh, okay, I know you didn't want to hurt me. Don't worry about
it.' It's not that they don't want to hurt you, it's that they don't
want to deal the pain that that person is going to feel.

Sixth (and last for now), neither you nor the OW are, IMO, too good
of a catch right now. Look at this from the outside for a second, if
you can. A woman who gets into a relationship with the husband of a
good friend does not know what it means to be loyal, does not have a
good sense of what is right and wrong, and puts her own desires first,
no matter the costs to other people. A man who gets into a relationship
with a good friend of his wife is not interested in honoring his com-
mitment, also does not have a good sense of right and wrong, has no
self-control/very little self-awareness, and also puts his own desires
first, no matter the costs to other people.

As far as help goes, IMO, you need to come clean with your wife. You're
not going to be able to keep this quiet forever and the longer you put
it off, the worse it's going to be. You also need to figure out what it
is about you and what it is in your heart/soul/personality that made
this all 'okay' for you to do. (And, no, I don't believe that you don't
think it's 'okay'. In every decision we make, there is a 'go, no-go'
point where we either say to ourselves 'Yeah, sure, I'll do it' or
'No way am I going to do THAT!' We justify to ourselves why it's 'okay'
to go ahead with an action. Justifications like 'My spouse will never
know. It's harmless. But it feels so good! I WANT to do it.') So, why
was it 'okay' for you to get involved with another woman? If you don't
figure that out, it's highly likely that you will be in this situation
over and over again until you *do* figure it out.

Tracey

Of course you´ve never intended to hurt anybody. Nobody ever intends to hurt
anybody but it always seems to happen, n´est ce pas?

"People do what they do becuase they want to do it. Their values, priorities
and boundaries justify and entitle their actions, feelings, thoughts,
decisions, words, ideas and desires. Those same values determine their
character, conscience, integrity and honor in every regard and venue."

What does it mean? Just that. You entered an emotional affair with another
woman, because your values entitle you to it. You know that what you are
doing is considered "bad" but *you* feel it´s ok to do this, that´s why you
begain this affair and that´s why you can´t stop it, even if it hurts other
people.

An opportunist is someone who goes through life, jumping from situation to
situation in an endless quest of happiness. But he never finds it. Because
happiness is not found in a situation or a person.

A co-dependent is someone who goes: "I´m happy only if you are happy", but
this also never works out, because everybody is responsible for their own
happiness.

The only way out of this mess is self-actualization. You don´t have to leave
your wife in order to self-actualize, you can do it anywhere, even in the
privacy of your own home. And if after that, you still want to leave her,
then by all means, do.

Sioban

PS. Please, PLEASE don´t breed during this process!!



"Dave" <doubtingdave99@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:25b7a6e5.0402201052.75912d3f@posting.google.c om... Here's my story. I am 27 years old and have been married for about a year and a half. (No kids though.) And already I am contemplating getting a divorce.
<snip story of co-dependent male who got married for all the wrong reasons
and now he´s met another woman, and is ready to chuck the marriage, because
he is governed by feelings and circumstances instead of values and inner
strength.>

You had me "feeling for you" .. until you brought another woman into the
picture...

I agree with the other posters..

You owe it to your wife to give your marriage every chance you can.. and you
cant not do that while having another woman on the side

as Dr Phil says.. a person needs to EARN his/her way out of a marriage..and
until you can honestly say you have given everything you can to this
marriage.. you have not earned your way out!

Kass
"Dave" <doubtingdave99@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:25b7a6e5.0402201052.75912d3f@posting.google.c om... Here's my story. I am 27 years old and have been married for about a year and a half. (No kids though.) And already I am contemplating getting a divorce. My wife and I started out as close friends who were there for one another during hard times. In retrospect, I think perhaps we should have stayed just friends. I think I allowed the relationship to progress beyond that because I knew she wanted it and because it made me feel good to make her happy. I seem to have a history of burying doubts and negative emotions... a history of convincing myself that I want a particular thing if it makes someone else happy. (I am working on getting over this.) This doubt-burying process ran almost beneath awareness for a long time. And I was able to be in control of how I felt, able to always be solid and secure in what I was doing. Well at some point last year I made a conscious commitment to no longer bury all of my negative emotions, and to no longer let my head dictate how I felt about things. I wanted to actually feel what was in my heart... not decide how I should feel and force myself to go with that. I followed through on that commitment, and as a result I lost all control of my doubts. And these are not small, simple doubts. They amount to an overwhelming feeling of 'wrongness' about us. And they have brought us to this point. We have both cried a great deal over the last few months or so, and we have been seeing a pastoral counselor once a week since November. I know that marriage is hard, sometimes grueling work, but this situation amounts to more than a "rough patch". I do not feel happy here, and can no longer convince myself that I am. My feelings are real, and they refuse to be pushed aside again. I often wake up shaking because something inside me screams that I'm not supposed to stay here. I can no longer get my heart back into this relationship, and feel that maybe it has not truly been involved for a long time. I am terrified... TERRIFIED... of hurting my wife. The knowledge that she is now hurting every day because of this situation has not done good things for my opinion of myself. At the same time any pain resulting from divorce would pale in comparison to the long-term pain resulting from a half-assed marriage. If my heart is not in this then my staying here is not fair to either one of us. Knowing that has helped me to face this, to tell my wife that I'm not sure I want to be married to her anymore. I do not want her to look back twenty years from now and feel like her life has been wasted on a marriage that was not meant to last. Right now we are getting along well... as friends. We are still living together, trying to figure out what happens next, if we can be more than friends. I want the best for my wife... all the happiness there is to be had... but I am not certain that I am the one to give it to her. I want the friendship to last. I will always want that. But I do not feel right in this marriage. I really am trying to do what's right for both of us in the long run. At the same time, I am not trying to glorify my feelings with a healthy dose of "for the best" speech. It is my selfishness that has raised this issue, my feelings of unhappiness. My wife knows who she wants, and that person is me. She has been as understanding as possible through all of this, even insisting that it is our combined issues that have brought us here, not just mine. I wish more than anything that there was a way to go through this without causing her pain. There is more. In the midst of this crisis, I fell in love with another woman, a woman who is a good friend to both of us and has been for a while. The other woman and I have spoken about my feelings, and she is very much in love with me as well. Before I go any further, although the physical attraction between us is very strong, I have not really allowed this other-woman situation to manifest itself physically. This does not make me feel all that great however, as my having these feelings is bad enough, and much of my heart is very much with this other woman. Everything just seems so... right... about her. Like she is all that I have ever looked for, and like we have that potentially dangerous "meant to be" thing going on. She feels guilty about being in love with the husband of one of her closest friends, but we're both finding it impossible to deny our feelings for one another. I guess this extra situation seems pretty low; on the outside I can imagine it looking that way. On the inside, when your heart takes a flying leap at someone, common sense tends to take a back seat for a while. For what it's worth, I am not trying to offer excuses, only explanations. I have no plans to tell my wife of my feelings for someone else, for I cannot see any good coming from such. I have no urge to hurt her more. Needless to say, I am drowning in guilt and despair. I cannot stay with my wife strictly out of fear of hurting her, that much I know. Yet I am haunted by the image of her lying in bed alone, reaching for someone who is not there. Additionally, the other woman's heart is now wrapped up in me as well. Whatever choice I make, someone I care about gets hurt. Badly. I have always lived in fear of hurting others, and now I can see no other way out. I have somehow crafted my own personal hell. Looking back, I am not sure that I could have done things differently (every choice I made felt right somehow, out of duty or love), but I take full responsibility for the horror of this situation. I am ashamed for burying my emotions. I am ashamed for falling in love with someone else and getting another person emotionally involved in this crisis. I am ashamed for the hurt I have caused people thus far. And I am scared. I know I am slime... berate me for such if you feel the need. I am proud of none of this. I am praying for answers and doing all that I can to see the right way out of this. I never set out to hurt anyone. I am near panic. Please help me. Dave

thanks Diana. I hope you're wrong about me too. :-/

"Dr. Di" <dianakd@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.02.20.19.20.16.546782@comcast.net>... On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 10:52:43 -0800, Dave wrote: Here's my story. I am 27 years old and have been married for about a year and a half. (No kids though.) And already I am contemplating getting a divorce. My wife and I started out as close friends who were there for one another during hard times. In retrospect, I think perhaps we should have stayed just friends. I think I allowed the relationship to progress beyond that because I knew she wanted it and because it made me feel good to make her happy. I seem to have a history of burying doubts and negative emotions... a history of convincing myself that I want a particular thing if it makes someone else happy. (I am working on getting over this.) This doubt-burying process ran almost beneath awareness for a long time. And I was able to be in control of how I felt, able to always be solid and secure in what I was doing. Well at some point last year I made a conscious commitment to no longer bury all of my negative emotions, and to no longer let my head dictate how I felt about things. I wanted to actually feel what was in my heart... not decide how I should feel and force myself to go with that. I followed through on that commitment, and as a result I lost all control of my doubts. And these are not small, simple doubts. They amount to an overwhelming feeling of 'wrongness' about us. And they have brought us to this point. We have both cried a great deal over the last few months or so, and we have been seeing a pastoral counselor once a week since November. I know that marriage is hard, sometimes grueling work, but this situation amounts to more than a "rough patch". I do not feel happy here, and can no longer convince myself that I am. My feelings are real, and they refuse to be pushed aside again. I often wake up shaking because something inside me screams that I'm not supposed to stay here. I can no longer get my heart back into this relationship, and feel that maybe it has not truly been involved for a long time. I am terrified... TERRIFIED... of hurting my wife. The knowledge that she is now hurting every day because of this situation has not done good things for my opinion of myself. At the same time any pain resulting from divorce would pale in comparison to the long-term pain resulting from a half-assed marriage. If my heart is not in this then my staying here is not fair to either one of us. Knowing that has helped me to face this, to tell my wife that I'm not sure I want to be married to her anymore. I do not want her to look back twenty years from now and feel like her life has been wasted on a marriage that was not meant to last. Right now we are getting along well... as friends. We are still living together, trying to figure out what happens next, if we can be more than friends. I want the best for my wife... all the happiness there is to be had... but I am not certain that I am the one to give it to her. I want the friendship to last. I will always want that. But I do not feel right in this marriage. I really am trying to do what's right for both of us in the long run. At the same time, I am not trying to glorify my feelings with a healthy dose of "for the best" speech. It is my selfishness that has raised this issue, my feelings of unhappiness. My wife knows who she wants, and that person is me. She has been as understanding as possible through all of this, even insisting that it is our combined issues that have brought us here, not just mine. I wish more than anything that there was a way to go through this without causing her pain. There is more. In the midst of this crisis, I fell in love with another woman, a woman who is a good friend to both of us and has been for a while. The other woman and I have spoken about my feelings, and she is very much in love with me as well. Before I go any further, although the physical attraction between us is very strong, I have not really allowed this other-woman situation to manifest itself physically. This does not make me feel all that great however, as my having these feelings is bad enough, and much of my heart is very much with this other woman. Everything just seems so... right... about her. Like she is all that I have ever looked for, and like we have that potentially dangerous "meant to be" thing going on. She feels guilty about being in love with the husband of one of her closest friends, but we're both finding it impossible to deny our feelings for one another. I guess this extra situation seems pretty low; on the outside I can imagine it looking that way. On the inside, when your heart takes a flying leap at someone, common sense tends to take a back seat for a while. For what it's worth, I am not trying to offer excuses, only explanations. I have no plans to tell my wife of my feelings for someone else, for I cannot see any good coming from such. I have no urge to hurt her more. Needless to say, I am drowning in guilt and despair. I cannot stay with my wife strictly out of fear of hurting her, that much I know. Yet I am haunted by the image of her lying in bed alone, reaching for someone who is not there. Additionally, the other woman's heart is now wrapped up in me as well. Whatever choice I make, someone I care about gets hurt. Badly. I have always lived in fear of hurting others, and now I can see no other way out. I have somehow crafted my own personal hell. Looking back, I am not sure that I could have done things differently (every choice I made felt right somehow, out of duty or love), but I take full responsibility for the horror of this situation. I am ashamed for burying my emotions. I am ashamed for falling in love with someone else and getting another person emotionally involved in this crisis. I am ashamed for the hurt I have caused people thus far. And I am scared. I know I am slime... berate me for such if you feel the need. I am proud of none of this. I am praying for answers and doing all that I can to see the right way out of this. I never set out to hurt anyone. I am near panic. Please help me. Dave Dear near Panic; I think you'd like someone to say that it's better to leave your Wife than to attempt to repair a broken relationship. Well sorry - not from me! You are correct to feel badly, and quite frankly I haven't a clue what you CAN do to make yourself feel better, other than to realize you in essence lied to your Wife, and she placed her hopes, dreams, love, and heart in your hands based on that lie. I'm a compassionate and understanding person, and normally non-judgmental, but you have exceeded the bounds of my compassion. However I have some clues, one being that I think you are confusing love with lust. That feeling in your gut is the result of hormones, not 'love', and lust always fades in time. If you do hook up with the new Woman, it's just a matter of time before you'll move on to the next. Good luck, and I hope I'm wrong about you! Diana

Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com> writes:
Dave wrote: I am near panic. Please help me.
snip of Tracey's post.

It is hard to add much to Tracey's excellent (though lengthy post).

But I'll add a couple things anyway (or maybe they were in Tracey's
post - I skimmed it pretty fast).

1) You are "panicky" right now. Forget about the panicky feelings for
a minute. If the "other woman" didn't exist, would you be thinking
of leaving your marriage? If so, to what end? That is, what do
you want to be different?

What would you be doing outside of your marriage that you couldn't
do within your marriage?

2) (Tracey did say this, but more nicely). If the other woman is your
wife's good friend, and is having an affair with you, then she and
you are behaving like major sleazeballs.

3) Although leaving your marriage out of panic instead of leaving it
for good reasons means you are just likely to repeat your mistakes
in life, there's no good reason for you to stay married if you
don't want to be married to your wife.

I find Tracey's 4th and 5th point especially worth repeating, but I
won't repeat them. Instead go back and read that part of her post
again!

On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 20:24:08 +0000, Tracey wrote:


Dave wrote: I am near panic. Please help me. Well, Dave, I gotta say, after reading your post, I can say that, except for 'the other woman is my wife's good friend' part, you just wrote a post that my husband would have written 9 years ago. And it's not a pretty situation to be in, for any of the partici- pants. There are a few specific things that I would like to comment on. First, I see your situation mirroring my husband's in that you don't seem to feel your marriage is horrible, that your wife is not willing to work with you on it, that things are sooooo bad that people you know are wondering why the heck you're still in the marriage. What I see, instead, is that your marriage is just 'there' and, IMO, that's something that can possibly be 'fixed'. Instead of attempting to 'fix' it, you've looked outside the marriage and gotten involved with someone else, leaving you with little incentive to work on your marriage and, instead, actually damaging your marriage more. And, please, don't say that because your wife doesn't know about the OW, you're not damaging your marriage. I spent 9 months not knowing about my husband's mis- tress and when I *did* find out about his affair, I knew exactly when it had all began because I knew exactly when things started going bad in our marriage. So, even when the wife doesn't know of the affair, the marriage can and will be affected. Second, IMO, your commitment to your wife should be your first priority. No matter what your reasons for getting married were, you married your wife and, IMO, it's imperative that you honor that commitment above any subsequent commitments you make to another person. By that I mean that you can't place your wife's feelings and the OW's feelings on the same level, you can't view both relationships at the same time and in the same way and as having the same priority. People don't get away with that in the 'real' world and I don't believe that they should get away with it when it comes to relationships. Let me ask you this. Do you do this when it comes to your work? If someone comes to you and says 'I need X by Monday,' and then another person comes to you two hours later and says 'I need Y by Monday,' do you agree to both even though you know you can't provide both X and Y by Mon- day and then worry about which one you're going to do? Or when a friend asks you to come to a party they're giving and you say 'Sure,' when another friend asks you to a party the same night, what do you do? If the answers to those questions are 'I honor the first commitment I made', then you should understand what I'm saying. If the answers to those questions are 'It depends', well, I have to say I don't particularly want to do business with you, I don't particularly want to be your friend, and, if I were the OW, I would be very leery of what the future with you would hold. If you do not honor this very important commitment you made to your wife, how in the heck do you think you can honor any future commitment to the OW? Third, be honest with yourself. Were you seriously contemplating ending your marriage before you became involved with the OW? I don't mean were you unhappy or discontented or even that the thought hadn't crossed your mind, but were you ready to end it? Had you talked with your wife about your feelings? And, if the OW were suddenly taken out of the picture entirely, would you still end the marriage and go to live on your own, alone, with no one to immediately fill your heart and your bed? Fourth (and, excuse me if this gets a little harsh. It's an area I feel *very* strongly about), how unfair is it that you are keeping such a big piece of information from your wife? Information that *directly* affects her and your relationship? Information that, if she had, she might decide that she no longer wants to be married to *you* and a decision that she has the right to make, IMO, and not have made for her by you withholding information. And how futile is it to be going to counseling when you're not telling anyone what all is actually going on? It's like going to the emergency room and telling the doctor to focus on fixing your broken leg while you have a gaping chest wound that you're hiding. IMO, going to counseling in your situation is dishonest and self-serving. IMO, you don't have a desire to fix your relationship, you just want to look like you do. Fifth, I find your protests of not wanting to hurt your wife quite hollow when you have done probably the worst thing in the world you could do the woman and that is fall in love with another. When someone says 'I don't want to hurt you' and then hauls off and hits you with a baseball bat, they're not being truthful. They just want the aftermath to be 'Oh, okay, I know you didn't want to hurt me. Don't worry about it.' It's not that they don't want to hurt you, it's that they don't want to deal the pain that that person is going to feel. Sixth (and last for now), neither you nor the OW are, IMO, too good of a catch right now. Look at this from the outside for a second, if you can. A woman who gets into a relationship with the husband of a good friend does not know what it means to be loyal, does not have a good sense of what is right and wrong, and puts her own desires first, no matter the costs to other people. A man who gets into a relationship with a good friend of his wife is not interested in honoring his com- mitment, also does not have a good sense of right and wrong, has no self-control/very little self-awareness, and also puts his own desires first, no matter the costs to other people. As far as help goes, IMO, you need to come clean with your wife. You're not going to be able to keep this quiet forever and the longer you put it off, the worse it's going to be. You also need to figure out what it is about you and what it is in your heart/soul/personality that made this all 'okay' for you to do. (And, no, I don't believe that you don't think it's 'okay'. In every decision we make, there is a 'go, no-go' point where we either say to ourselves 'Yeah, sure, I'll do it' or 'No way am I going to do THAT!' We justify to ourselves why it's 'okay' to go ahead with an action. Justifications like 'My spouse will never know. It's harmless. But it feels so good! I WANT to do it.') So, why was it 'okay' for you to get involved with another woman? If you don't figure that out, it's highly likely that you will be in this situation over and over again until you *do* figure it out. Tracey

Tracey, if I ever have unresolvable marital problems, or business problems for
that matter, I want YOU on my side, and God help the opposition! Are you
an Attorney per chance?

Well said... But I'm beginning to feel sorry for this guy :)

Diana

Doug Anderson wrote: Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com> writes: Dave wrote: I am near panic. Please help me.

Sounds like you have earned it. One reaps what one sows...

Dr. Di wrote:
Tracey, if I ever have unresolvable marital problems, or business problems for that matter, I want YOU on my side, and God help the opposition! Are you an Attorney per chance?

LOL. No, I'm not. :)

What I am is a person who was in the OP's wife's position and who
spent a year living with a husband who was in love with someone else
and who fought like hell to save her marriage. I wasn't kidding when
I said that my husband, 8-9 years ago, would have written this same
post if he had been interested in newsgroups. We, too, were only
married a very short time before he found his 'soulmate' and fell
in love. We, too, entered counseling, ostensibly to fix our problems
while in reality he was only trying to get up the courage to leave
me. And I, too, spent a lot of time trying to fix our marriage and
fix *myself* when it wasn't me that was the problem, it was him and
his affair that was causing our marriage to suck rocks.

But, now I'm a person who is closing in on my tenth wedding anniversary
and looking forward to spending the rest of my life with my husband.
And it seems my husband is looking forward to spending the rest of
his life with me. :)
Well said... But I'm beginning to feel sorry for this guy :)

To a certain extent, I do, too. I don't doubt that he's going through
great emotional turmoil. My husband was a basket case for a long time.
But the only way that my husband found his way *out* of the mess he
made was to take ownership of the mess and clean it up in a way where
he could still look himself in the face afterwards.

I know Doug mentioned something about my long reply but, honestly,
I could have went on for much longer. There were so many areas in
the original post that were exact duplicates of things my husband
said to me, ways that my husband was thinking that it was pretty
eerie reading it.

Tracey

Doug Anderson wrote:
It is hard to add much to Tracey's excellent (though lengthy post). But I'll add a couple things anyway (or maybe they were in Tracey's post - I skimmed it pretty fast).

You mean you didn't read every little word, Doug? I'm crushed. :P


Tracey

Tracey, you definately have better advice than some doctors would. There is
a lot to be sad about lifes learned lessons. I'm so happy that everything
worked out for you. At that time, did you not doubt that this man was the
one you were meant to be with? How did you know it was going to be worth the
fight? If my husband ever had an affair, I really don't know if or how I
could ever forgive him. I don't know if I could be as strong as you had to
be. I could most definately use a friend like you though. Maybe you could
help to solve some of my problems!

Ang


"Tracey" <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote in message
news:4036BFB5.6070002@aol.com... Dr. Di wrote: Tracey, if I ever have unresolvable marital problems, or business
problems for that matter, I want YOU on my side, and God help the opposition! Are you an Attorney per chance? LOL. No, I'm not. :) What I am is a person who was in the OP's wife's position and who spent a year living with a husband who was in love with someone else and who fought like hell to save her marriage. I wasn't kidding when I said that my husband, 8-9 years ago, would have written this same post if he had been interested in newsgroups. We, too, were only married a very short time before he found his 'soulmate' and fell in love. We, too, entered counseling, ostensibly to fix our problems while in reality he was only trying to get up the courage to leave me. And I, too, spent a lot of time trying to fix our marriage and fix *myself* when it wasn't me that was the problem, it was him and his affair that was causing our marriage to suck rocks. But, now I'm a person who is closing in on my tenth wedding anniversary and looking forward to spending the rest of my life with my husband. And it seems my husband is looking forward to spending the rest of his life with me. :) Well said... But I'm beginning to feel sorry for this guy :) To a certain extent, I do, too. I don't doubt that he's going through great emotional turmoil. My husband was a basket case for a long time. But the only way that my husband found his way *out* of the mess he made was to take ownership of the mess and clean it up in a way where he could still look himself in the face afterwards. I know Doug mentioned something about my long reply but, honestly, I could have went on for much longer. There were so many areas in the original post that were exact duplicates of things my husband said to me, ways that my husband was thinking that it was pretty eerie reading it. Tracey

Ang wrote: At that time, did you not doubt that this man was the one you were meant to be with?

Yes, I did. At the same time, I WAS 'with' him. I had chosen to
marry him and I felt it was my obligation to try my hardest to
make our marriage good for both of us.
How did you know it was going to be worth the fight?

I didn't.

BUT, I also knew that I was too hurt and too angry to make a good
decision at the time. It would have been, to me, like going into
an emergency room with a broken leg and insisting that they just
cut the thing off because of the pain and not letting them at least
*try* to treat the pain and set it so that it might be strong again.

There were other reasons that I felt I *had* to do all that I could.
We had a 7yo son and a newborn daughter at the time and I felt that,
no matter how much pain I was in, I *had* to do whatever I could to
try stay in my marriage for them. Not that I would have stayed married
no matter what because I came thisclose to leaving about 9 months into
the process. But I didn't want to look back and know that I hadn't
done everything I possibly could.



Tracey

Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com> writes:
I know Doug mentioned something about my long reply but,

(hey, it wasn't a criticism!)

doubtingdave99@yahoo.com (Dave) wrote in message news:<25b7a6e5.0402201052.75912d3f@posting.google.com>... Here's my story.


Sad litany snipped for brevity

And I am scared. I know I am slime... berate me for such if you feel the need. I am proud of none of this. I am praying for answers and doing all that I can to see the right way out of this. I never set out to hurt anyone. I am near panic. Please help me. Dave


Hi Dave,

I think you have gotten some excellent advice so far. I appreciate
that you feel bad for all the pain and sorrow that you are causing.
It shows that you are at least struggling with your situation.

Okay you asked for answers on the right way out of this? I see at
least 4 steps you need to do.

1. Tell the other woman how much you appreciated her friendship and
comfort in your time of distress. Then tell her that it is not fair
to her or your wife to have a relationship with her. Thank her for
her understanding and then NEVER see her again. You have screwed any
chance of having an honest relationship with her. This may seem
harsh, but this is the price you pay for skipping steps such as
divorcing your wife, sorting out your feelings, bringing a healthy
male into a new relationship, etc. If she says she will wait for you,
tell her no. There is no way you can honestly work on your marriage
with a third person waiting in the wings. If she is someone that you
have to see in your everyday life, then you must keep any interaction
polite and calm. Don't meet with her privately EVER again. She will
get over you quicker if you don't drag it out.

2. Place all of your feelings about how wrong your wife is for you and
how right this other woman is for you in a heap on the floor and stomp
the life out of them. Making decisions based on your "feelings" is
never a good idea. Most of the time, your head will make better
decisions than your heart. Decisions that are made by the heart make
great movies and novels. Get over these feelings of love, (or lust as
some posters have suggested)for the other woman. You have work to
take care of first.

3. Go into marriage counseling with a renewed vigor that you want this
marriage to have every chance to succeed. If the marriage is to fail,
it won't be because of lack of effort on your part. Attitude counts a
lot for success or failure. There are marriage encounter weekends
that can really help you. If the counseling you have now isn't
productive, find another counselor. Have you told the counselor about
the other woman? Kind of hard for counseling to help if you hide
details.

4. Many marriages are saved by time and maturity. Problems (and
feelings) that seem insurmountable now can have solutions that you
have missed so far. Your anxiety level is so high now that you aren't
looking or listening to advice and solutions that people suggest. If
you truly don't know what to do, then don't divorce. Take the time
until you are sure of what you should do.

None of these steps will be easy. You will cause pain and suffering.
Accept it like a man, and resolve to do better. Life will go on, no
matter what course you decide. But you will live with your choices
the rest of your life. I feel the anguish in your post. Don't
compound your anguish by bailing on your marriage because of your
feelings.

You mentioned that you were praying for the right answer. I will be
praying that you receive the right answer, and have the courage to
follow through with it.

Peace

Allen

Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote in message news:<40366CEB.4030308@aol.com>... Dave wrote: I am near panic. Please help me. Well, Dave, I gotta say, after reading your post, I can say that, except for 'the other woman is my wife's good friend' part, you just wrote a post that my husband would have written 9 years ago. And it's not a pretty situation to be in, for any of the partici- pants. There are a few specific things that I would like to comment on.

(a very fine post snipped for brevity. This is going into the save
file.)
Tracey


Hi Tracey,

That was a wonderful and powerful post. Especially since it was
written from the viewpoint of someone who has been there, done that.
It sure makes mine pale by comparison. One of the problems of posting
from Google is the length of time that posts take to show up. I
posted mine 5 hours after yours and hadn't seen yours yet. I would
have passed on posting except the OP struck a nerve. The story was
similar to my first marriage.

Your story sounds familiar. Could I have read some of your posts at
alt.support.divorce?

Allen

doubtingdave99@yahoo.com (Dave) wrote in message news:<25b7a6e5.0402201052.75912d3f@posting.google.com>... Here's my story.

Here's my take on your story:
I am 27 years old and have been married for about a year and a half.

Marriage is a huge step towards intimacy and commitment. Intimacy can
be scary and downright terrifying for some people, because it leaves
you vulnerable to to love that person completely and wholly, expose
your flaws and inner thoughts to one person, to rely on that one
person, to face the possibility of losing or being rejected by that
one person. When you think about it that way, it's amazing that anyone
is brave enough to get married! :-)
And these are not small, simple doubts. They amount to an overwhelming feeling of 'wrongness' about us. And they have brought us to this point.

Nah, I don't think that your doubts are telling you the relationship
is "wrong" - in fact, the relationship is probably very, very RIGHT.
It's your fear of intimacy that's getting in the way. You want to run,
you want to hide.....
Right now we are getting along well... as friends.

Your fear is doing a very good job of holding your wife, and intimacy
with your wife, at arm's length.
There is more.

I just knew this was coming! Do you realize how cliche you are?
I am near panic. Please help me.

Your panic is fear. Fear of intimacy. In that panic you are grasping
on any means to keep yourself from being enveloped and drowned in
intimacy. You are not going towards intimacy with this new person;
you're fleeing from intimacy with your wife.

It can play out one of two ways:

1) You leave your wife for this other woman. When that relationship
becomes increasingly committed and intimate, your fears will ignite
yet again, and you'll run again. Probably into the arms of yet another
patsy. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Maybe some day you'll figure out that
all these serial relationships were shallow and you will have matured
to the point you want more. Maybe not. Maybe you will discover that
intimacy is not for you, and you'll choose a life of independence
instead, and be happy dating but not committing. That's okay too, as
long as your honest with yourself and all those involved.

2) You'll decide you want to work through this fear, recognizing that
the rewards for doing so will be worth it despite the risks and
terror. You'll take a deep breath, and turn to the woman you married
(the one who's most capable of flaming this huge fear in you) and
you'll ask for her patience and understanding while you get a grip on
yourself. Then you'll take a huge leap of faith, trust that you
married the right person, maybe take some antianxiety meds or do yoga
to calm your nerves, and see what happens when intimacy is allowed to
develop. You may find that you don't drown but swim very well, once
you get past the initial shock.

Oh yeah... and everything Tracey said, too!
jen

Allen wrote:
That was a wonderful and powerful post.

Thank you.
Especially since it was written from the viewpoint of someonewho has been there, done that.

Yeah, well, I would say that I wished it all hadn't happened so
that I wouldn't have been able to write the post, but, then again,
IMO, if it hadn't happened the way it did, I doubt we would be
where we are today.
It sure makes mine pale by comparison.

Problems are problems just as pain is pain and they shouldn't
really be compared.
Your story sounds familiar. Could I have read some of your posts at alt.support.divorce?

Possibly. I started posting on alt.support.divorce and alt.support.
marriage when I was right in the middle of all of this and not really
sure which way we were heading.

Tracey

Dave <doubtingdave99@yahoo.com> wrote:
There is more. In the midst of this crisis, I fell in love with another woman, a woman who is a good friend to both of us and has been for a while.

Ouch. This has brought me back to the end of my first marriage,
emotional affair and all (though thankfully the guy wasn't a friend of
my then husband). In my case I knew I could not live with myself if I
didn't give my marriage a sincere try. We went to counselling for six
months, and I've never worked harder. The marriage still ended, but I
was a better person for it, and I can sleep at night. Also, I could
never have had the relationship I now have with my H if I hadn't done
all that work. By the way, the guy I was so in love with was and is
completely out of the picture.

So, for your own sake I would do what you know you should do and see if
your marriage can be saved. Go to marriagebuilders.com and read up on
infidelity. Cut off all contact with the other women. Be the best
husband you are capable of being for the next six months. Then, if it
all fails, you can leave with a clear conscience.

mbjq@earthlink.net (Emma Anne) writes:
Dave <doubtingdave99@yahoo.com> wrote: There is more. In the midst of this crisis, I fell in love with another woman, a woman who is a good friend to both of us and has been for a while. Ouch. This has brought me back to the end of my first marriage, emotional affair and all (though thankfully the guy wasn't a friend of my then husband). In my case I knew I could not live with myself if I didn't give my marriage a sincere try. We went to counselling for six months, and I've never worked harder. The marriage still ended, but I was a better person for it, and I can sleep at night. Also, I could never have had the relationship I now have with my H if I hadn't done all that work. By the way, the guy I was so in love with was and is completely out of the picture. So, for your own sake I would do what you know you should do and see if your marriage can be saved. Go to marriagebuilders.com and read up on infidelity. Cut off all contact with the other women. Be the best husband you are capable of being for the next six months. Then, if it all fails, you can leave with a clear conscience.

I think this is very good advice. My wife and I _did_ stay together
through a rough period, but I remembered a moment when I realized that
I felt like I was doing the right work, and if things _didn't_
improve, I would be able to separate from her in a cooperative way,
knowing that I was doing the right thing.

That was a calming realization, and paradoxically, was helpful for
working on our relationship.

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:vq7jydzmlt.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu... mbjq@earthlink.net (Emma Anne) writes: Dave <doubtingdave99@yahoo.com> wrote: There is more. In the midst of this crisis, I fell in love with another woman, a woman who is a good friend to both of us and has been for a while.


You owe it to your wife to give your marriage an honest try. Meaning, you
can't have a girlfriend waiting in the wings.Give it 6mths of honest, hard
work. Go to counseling do whatever it takes, but you MUST NOT continue to
see your wifes friend.
Besides, if you leave your wife for this woman, you will never be happy.
Guilt will eat at you, until you are in the exact same position you're in
right now.
What makes you think if she will fool around with her friends husband, that
she won't cheat with one of your friends??
In my personal experience, once a cheat always a cheat.

I wouldn't say you're slime, but you really should consider whether
getting involved in this new relationship will be good for you, the
(STBX?) wife, or even the other woman. You know the old saying "any
port in a storm." How do you know this relationship will turn out any
better? How would you feel if your wife took up with one of your
friends? Probably betrayed, by both of them. You should look
elsewhere, if you feel you need a relationship. Maybe it would be
better to be alone for a while and work on yourself.

Having said that, I don't think it's your duty to stay in a marriage
where you're not happy. Especially if there are no kids involved.

Best of luck to you.

OG
And I am scared. I know I am slime... berate me for such if you feel the need. I am proud of none of this. I am praying for answers and doing all that I can to see the right way out of this. I never set out to hurt anyone. I am near panic. Please help me. Dave

doubtingdave99@yahoo.com (Dave) wrote in message news:<25b7a6e5.0402201052.75912d3f@posting.google.com>... Here's my story. I am 27 years old and have been married for about a year and a half. (No kids though.) And already I am contemplating getting a divorce.
<story snipped for bandwith conservation> I am near panic. Please help me. Dave

Dave, Dave, Dave... I feel your pain. Been there. The best piece of
advice I can give you at this point is not to do anything while you're
in the throes of whatever it is with this other woman. I know it
seems hard to believe from where you're sitting, but that situation is
very much related to your marriage situation, no matter how you try to
slice it not to come up that way. You want out, this other woman is
just the hook you've hung your get-out feelings on. Now, do you want
to know *why* you want out, or do you just want to get out, go to the
other woman, and end up in the same spot a few years down the road
with her? Because that's where you're going, my man, do not kid
yourself. Eventually you're going to have to find what's at the
bottom of the barrel -- you can do it now, or you can do it later, but
(assuming you want to have a good long-term relationship with a woman)
you're going to have to do it eventually. A pastoral counsellor isn't
going to do the trick. You see where I'm going with this. My $0.02,
for what it's worth. Hang in there. M9

"Tracey" <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote in message
news:403BD36F.90001@aol.com... That's a common reaction to a spouse's affair. One of the books I read described it as a total loss of knowing our place in the world anymore. The one thing that we *thought* we knew was true (that our spouse would never cheat on us) is proven false so every- thing else that we believe is suspect. It's a deep down loss of trust, not just in our spouses, but in *ourselves*. We made such a bad decision to trust this person who hurt us so badly, how the heck can we be expected to make any other decision?
I could tell pretty quickly that is exactly what my wife's reaction to my
asking her to come to counselling was -- she thought she understood me,
understood our marriage -- and it was such a shock to her that she had it
wrong that she still hasn't overcome it. She has an innate need to
understand the order of things -- exactly how things are -- and that had to
have crushed her trust in her ability to do that. A recurrent theme in ASM
is how does one gain the trust of one's spouse back? In this case I'm not
sure it's possible until she recognizes the world isn't always going to
submit to her need to understand it.

Ted