Another thread caused me to think about this subject.

How would you react if you found that your child was gay?

Would you disown and disassociate with that child?

Would you maintain your present relationship? Would you
accept your child's lover into your home and life?

Would you stand up for them in a gay marriage and hope that
they make it as a couple? Even encourage them to have children by
whatever means works best for them?

Just curious to see responses.

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:uKGdnabFn5HWgqndRVn-hA@comcast.com... Another thread caused me to think about this subject. How would you react if you found that your child was gay? Would you disown and disassociate with that child? Would you maintain your present relationship? Would you accept your child's lover into your home and life? Would you stand up for them in a gay marriage and hope that they make it as a couple? Even encourage them to have children by whatever means works best for them? Just curious to see responses.

I'm not a parent, but I would like to think it wouldn't matter to me. If I
had a gay niece or nephew, it wouldn't matter to me at all.

urf wrote:
How would you react if you found that your child was gay?

Say 'Okay.'
Would you disown and disassociate with that child?

No.
Would you maintain your present relationship? Would you accept your child's lover into your home and life?

Yes and yes.
Would you stand up for them in a gay marriage and hope that they make it as a couple? Even encourage them to have children by whatever means works best for them?

Would stand up for them, yes. Encourage them to have children?
No because I'm reading 'encourage' as 'even if they don't want
them.' If they decided they wanted children, I would support
them in any way I could.

Tracey

>> How would you react if you found that your child was gay?Say 'Okay.' Would you disown and disassociate with that child?No. Would you maintain your present relationship? Would you accept your child's lover into your home and life?Yes and yes. Would you stand up for them in a gay marriage and hope that they make it as a couple? Even encourage them to have children by whatever means works best for them?Would stand up for them, yes. Encourage them to have children?No because I'm reading 'encourage' as 'even if they don't wantthem.' If they decided they wanted children, I would supportthem in any way I could.Tracey

I'll save space by just saying "ditto" to Tracey's post.

Sheila

urf wrote:
Another thread caused me to think about this subject. How would you react if you found that your child was gay? Would you disown and disassociate with that child? Would you maintain your present relationship? Would you accept your child's lover into your home and life? Would you stand up for them in a gay marriage and hope that they make it as a couple? Even encourage them to have children by whatever means works best for them? Just curious to see responses.

Yes, I'd accept my child. And his lover if I had to. This is not
something I like talking about though because one of my husband's
biggest irrational fears is raising our boys "sissified" and gay..... :)

To clarify, I have nothing against gays. I think every woman should
have a gay male friend. :) Heck....maybe even every woman should have a
lesbian lover once in her life. :)

But I am disturbed about the shift to "gay is okay".......

Does any of that make sense?

amy

Amy D <amykae@joimail.com> writes:
urf wrote: Another thread caused me to think about this subject. How would you react if you found that your child was gay? Would you disown and disassociate with that child? Would you maintain your present relationship? Would you accept your child's lover into your home and life? Would you stand up for them in a gay marriage and hope that they make it as a couple? Even encourage them to have children by whatever means works best for them? Just curious to see responses. Yes, I'd accept my child. And his lover if I had to. This is not something I like talking about though because one of my husband's biggest irrational fears is raising our boys "sissified" and gay..... :) To clarify, I have nothing against gays. I think every woman should have a gay male friend. :) Heck....maybe even every woman should have a lesbian lover once in her life. :) But I am disturbed about the shift to "gay is okay"....... Does any of that make sense?

Some of it. It doesn't make sense though to say you have nothing
against gays, but are disturbed by the shift to "gay is okay."

Doug Anderson wrote:
Amy D <amykae@joimail.com> writes:urf wrote:Another thread caused me to think about this subject.How would you react if you found that your child was gay?Would you disown and disassociate with that child?Would you maintain your present relationship? Would youaccept your child's lover into your home and life?Would you stand up for them in a gay marriage and hope thatthey make it as a couple? Even encourage them to have children bywhatever means works best for them?Just curious to see responses.Yes, I'd accept my child. And his lover if I had to. This is notsomething I like talking about though because one of my husband'sbiggest irrational fears is raising our boys "sissified" andgay..... :)To clarify, I have nothing against gays. I think every woman shouldhave a gay male friend. :) Heck....maybe even every woman should havea lesbian lover once in her life. :)But I am disturbed about the shift to "gay is okay".......Does any of that make sense? Some of it. It doesn't make sense though to say you have nothing against gays, but are disturbed by the shift to "gay is okay."

I guess it's just not something I've put alot of energy into thinking
about. All I KNOW is I wouldn't disown my child...and I AM disturbed at
the thought that "gay is okay" on a global level......

So I'm sure I'd have some kind of life-altering crisis if the event
occured......but I'm positive I'd accept my child.......does that make
sense?

amy

Amy D wrote: Doug Anderson wrote: Amy D <amykae@joimail.com> writes: urf wrote:> Another thread caused me to think about this subject.> How would you react if you found that your child was gay?> Would you disown and disassociate with that child?> Would you maintain your present relationship? Would you> accept your child's lover into your home and life?> Would you stand up for them in a gay marriage and hope that> they make it as a couple? Even encourage them to have children by> whatever means works best for them?> Just curious to see responses.> Yes, I'd accept my child. And his lover if I had to. This is not something I like talking about though because one of my husband's biggest irrational fears is raising our boys "sissified" and gay..... :) To clarify, I have nothing against gays. I think every woman should have a gay male friend. :) Heck....maybe even every woman should have a lesbian lover once in her life. :) But I am disturbed about the shift to "gay is okay"....... Does any of that make sense? Some of it. It doesn't make sense though to say you have nothing against gays, but are disturbed by the shift to "gay is okay." I guess it's just not something I've put alot of energy into thinking about. All I KNOW is I wouldn't disown my child...and I AM disturbed at the thought that "gay is okay" on a global level...... So I'm sure I'd have some kind of life-altering crisis if the event occured......but I'm positive I'd accept my child.......does that make sense? amy

I think it makes sense. How about polygamy though? Nobody has addressed that
yet.

"Amy D" <amykae@joimail.com> wrote in message
news:1038h9k6a1bdpbb@corp.supernews.com... Yes, I'd accept my child. And his lover if I had to. This is not something I like talking about though because one of my husband's biggest irrational fears is raising our boys "sissified" and gay..... :) To clarify, I have nothing against gays. I think every woman should have a gay male friend. :) Heck....maybe even every woman should have a lesbian lover once in her life. :) But I am disturbed about the shift to "gay is okay"....... Does any of that make sense?

I'll pipe up and say that while I don't necessarily agree, I think there's a
logic by which your stance makes sense. If you substituted the word "cancer"
for "gay," for example--it would be a very logical set of views to hold:
that you would accept your child if they had cancer, that you have nothing
against people with cancer, but that you'd be happier if cancer were reduced
or eliminated--not promoted or encouraged.

DrLith wrote: "Amy D" <amykae@joimail.com> wrote in message news:1038h9k6a1bdpbb@corp.supernews.com...Yes, I'd accept my child. And his lover if I had to. This is notsomething I like talking about though because one of my husband'sbiggest irrational fears is raising our boys "sissified" and gay..... :)To clarify, I have nothing against gays. I think every woman shouldhave a gay male friend. :) Heck....maybe even every woman should have alesbian lover once in her life. :)But I am disturbed about the shift to "gay is okay".......Does any of that make sense? I'll pipe up and say that while I don't necessarily agree, I think there's a logic by which your stance makes sense. If you substituted the word "cancer" for "gay," for example--it would be a very logical set of views to hold: that you would accept your child if they had cancer, that you have nothing against people with cancer, but that you'd be happier if cancer were reduced or eliminated--not promoted or encouraged.
Yeah, that sums up my feelings on it at the moment. Thanks. :)

amy

Bill in Co wrote: Amy D wrote: Doug Anderson wrote: Amy D <amykae@joimail.com> writes:> urf wrote:>>>> Another thread caused me to think about this subject.>> How would you react if you found that your child was gay?>> Would you disown and disassociate with that child?>> Would you maintain your present relationship? Would you>> accept your child's lover into your home and life?>> Would you stand up for them in a gay marriage and hope that>> they make it as a couple? Even encourage them to have children by>> whatever means works best for them?>> Just curious to see responses.>>>> Yes, I'd accept my child. And his lover if I had to. This is not> something I like talking about though because one of my husband's> biggest irrational fears is raising our boys "sissified" and> gay..... :)>> To clarify, I have nothing against gays. I think every woman should> have a gay male friend. :) Heck....maybe even every woman should have> a lesbian lover once in her life. :)>> But I am disturbed about the shift to "gay is okay".......>> Does any of that make sense? Some of it. It doesn't make sense though to say you have nothing against gays, but are disturbed by the shift to "gay is okay." I guess it's just not something I've put alot of energy into thinking about. All I KNOW is I wouldn't disown my child...and I AM disturbed at the thought that "gay is okay" on a global level...... So I'm sure I'd have some kind of life-altering crisis if the event occured......but I'm positive I'd accept my child.......does that make sense? amy I think it makes sense. How about polygamy though? Nobody has addressed
that yet.

Ooops, I forgot. What is the female version of polygamy called? And why
hasn't this marriage issue come up yet, assuming all parties are happy with the
arrangement?

Amy D wrote:
DrLith wrote: "Amy D" <amykae@joimail.com> wrote in message news:1038h9k6a1bdpbb@corp.supernews.com... Yes, I'd accept my child. And his lover if I had to. This is not something I like talking about though because one of my husband's biggest irrational fears is raising our boys "sissified" and gay..... :) To clarify, I have nothing against gays. I think every woman should have a gay male friend. :) Heck....maybe even every woman should have a lesbian lover once in her life. :) But I am disturbed about the shift to "gay is okay"....... Does any of that make sense? I'll pipe up and say that while I don't necessarily agree, I think there's a logic by which your stance makes sense. If you substituted the word "cancer" for "gay," for example--it would be a very logical set of views to hold: that you would accept your child if they had cancer, that you have nothing against people with cancer, but that you'd be happier if cancer were reduced or eliminated--not promoted or encouraged. Yeah, that sums up my feelings on it at the moment. Thanks. :) amy

Oops, were you being sarcastic and assuming that I am thinking wrong
like this? Or were you trying to put it into an "understandable"
scenario......

amy

Amy D <amykae@joimail.com> writes:
Doug Anderson wrote: Amy D <amykae@joimail.com> writes:urf wrote:>Another thread caused me to think about this subject.>How would you react if you found that your child was gay?>Would you disown and disassociate with that child?>Would you maintain your present relationship? Would you>accept your child's lover into your home and life?>Would you stand up for them in a gay marriage and hope that>they make it as a couple? Even encourage them to have children by>whatever means works best for them?>Just curious to see responses.>Yes, I'd accept my child. And his lover if I had to. This is notsomething I like talking about though because one of my husband'sbiggest irrational fears is raising our boys "sissified" andgay..... :)To clarify, I have nothing against gays. I think every woman shouldhave a gay male friend. :) Heck....maybe even every woman should havea lesbian lover once in her life. :)But I am disturbed about the shift to "gay is okay".......Does any of that make sense? Some of it. It doesn't make sense though to say you have nothing against gays, but are disturbed by the shift to "gay is okay." I guess it's just not something I've put alot of energy into thinking about. All I KNOW is I wouldn't disown my child...and I AM disturbed at the thought that "gay is okay" on a global level...... So I'm sure I'd have some kind of life-altering crisis if the event occured......but I'm positive I'd accept my child.......does that make sense?

It makes perfect sense!

"DrLith" <drlith@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c11jkn$1d3g4e$1@ID-132000.news.uni-berlin.de...
I'll pipe up and say that while I don't necessarily agree, I think there's
a logic by which your stance makes sense. If you substituted the word
"cancer" for "gay," for example--it would be a very logical set of views to hold: that you would accept your child if they had cancer, that you have nothing against people with cancer, but that you'd be happier if cancer were
reduced or eliminated--not promoted or encouraged.

That last part confuses me. Are you suggesting that people might be
encouraged to be gay? Or that already gay people are encouraged to come out?

JWB wrote: "DrLith" <drlith@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:c11jkn$1d3g4e$1@ID-132000.news.uni-berlin.de...I'll pipe up and say that while I don't necessarily agree, I think there's alogic by which your stance makes sense. If you substituted the word "cancer"for "gay," for example--it would be a very logical set of views to hold:that you would accept your child if they had cancer, that you have nothingagainst people with cancer, but that you'd be happier if cancer were reducedor eliminated--not promoted or encouraged. That last part confuses me. Are you suggesting that people might be encouraged to be gay? Or that already gay people are encouraged to come out?

Ummmm....I didn't get that from Ms Lith's post...but to answer your
question... YES, some are urged and some exploited. I'm not going to
post my personal experience in usenet but will share if you are
interested via email.

amy

"Amy D" <amykae@joimail.com> wrote in message
news:1038mvs1aihvsd6@corp.supernews.com... JWB wrote: "DrLith" <drlith@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:c11jkn$1d3g4e$1@ID-132000.news.uni-berlin.de...I'll pipe up and say that while I don't necessarily agree, I think
there's alogic by which your stance makes sense. If you substituted the word "cancer"for "gay," for example--it would be a very logical set of views to hold:that you would accept your child if they had cancer, that you have
nothingagainst people with cancer, but that you'd be happier if cancer were reducedor eliminated--not promoted or encouraged. That last part confuses me. Are you suggesting that people might be encouraged to be gay? Or that already gay people are encouraged to come
out? Ummmm....I didn't get that from Ms Lith's post...but to answer your question... YES, some are urged and some exploited. I'm not going to post my personal experience in usenet but will share if you are interested via email.

you mean people are encouraged to *be* gay? That's where the word encouraged
confuses me.

Keep in mind in this context we aren't talking about someone approaching
you.

I would obviously stand by my child and continue being his friend. I
would not particularly care for his partners and advise my son to be
celibate to avoid death from AIDS.

I would not support gay marriage.

i

In article <uKGdnabFn5HWgqndRVn-hA@comcast.com>, urf wrote: Another thread caused me to think about this subject. How would you react if you found that your child was gay? Would you disown and disassociate with that child? Would you maintain your present relationship? Would you accept your child's lover into your home and life? Would you stand up for them in a gay marriage and hope that they make it as a couple? Even encourage them to have children by whatever means works best for them? Just curious to see responses.

On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 05:18:07 GMT, Doug Anderson
<ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote: Amy D <amykae@joimail.com> writes: urf wrote: Another thread caused me to think about this subject. How would you react if you found that your child was gay? Would you disown and disassociate with that child? Would you maintain your present relationship? Would you accept your child's lover into your home and life? Would you stand up for them in a gay marriage and hope that they make it as a couple? Even encourage them to have children by whatever means works best for them? Just curious to see responses. Yes, I'd accept my child. And his lover if I had to. This is not something I like talking about though because one of my husband's biggest irrational fears is raising our boys "sissified" and gay..... :) To clarify, I have nothing against gays. I think every woman should have a gay male friend. :) Heck....maybe even every woman should have a lesbian lover once in her life. :) But I am disturbed about the shift to "gay is okay"....... Does any of that make sense? Some of it. It doesn't make sense though to say you have nothing against gays, but are disturbed by the shift to "gay is okay."

It makes perfect sense. If someone is gay, it's a bad thing, but I have
nothing against people who are gay. I wish they wouldn't be gay, but I'm
not going to discriminate against them in the workplace, I'll still have
gay friends, etc.

But gay is not ok.

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

"Bill in Co" <Lost In Time@earthlink.net> wrote:
Ooops, I forgot. What is the female version of polygamy called? And why hasn't this marriage issue come up yet, assuming all parties are happy with the arrangement?

Polyandry.

I am opposed to making polyamourous marriage legal. I think that
changing the definition of marriage requires the advocates of the change
to make their case. I believe gays have made their case and it's time.
I don't think polyamourous groups have done this. Actually, other than
those splinter mormon groups I never hear from anyone who even advocates
it.

WhansaMi <whansami@aol.com> wrote:
How would you react if you found that your child was gay?Say 'Okay.' Would you disown and disassociate with that child?No. Would you maintain your present relationship? Would you accept your child's lover into your home and life?Yes and yes. Would you stand up for them in a gay marriage and hope that they make it as a couple? Even encourage them to have children by whatever means works best for them?Would stand up for them, yes. Encourage them to have children?No because I'm reading 'encourage' as 'even if they don't wantthem.' If they decided they wanted children, I would supportthem in any way I could.Tracey I'll save space by just saying "ditto" to Tracey's post.

Ditto ditto.

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:uKGdnabFn5HWgqndRVn-hA@comcast.com... Another thread caused me to think about this subject. How would you react if you found that your child was gay?

I would be sad and a little dissapointed, but I would just grin and bear it.
Would you disown and disassociate with that child?

No, of course not.
Would you maintain your present relationship?

Yes.
Would you accept your child's lover into your home and life?

Depends on what kind of a person this lover is. If this would be a good
person, per my definition, yes. Same would apply for a female lover.
(I´m not as anal as I sound: as long as they aren´t
addicts/married/criminals/abusive, I´d probably go along with it.)
Would you stand up for them in a gay marriage and hope that they make it as a couple?

Sure. In fact I would be very relieved to know that my son has a monogamous
situation and is not the promiscious type, considering how dangerous this is
today.
Even encourage them to have children by whatever means works best for them?

I would not encourage them to have children and I would be dissapointed if
they choose to have some. But I would still try to be a part in the
"grandchildrens" life.
Just curious to see responses.

Emma Anne wrote:
Polyandry. I am opposed to making polyamourous marriage legal. I think that changing the definition of marriage requires the advocates of the change to make their case. I believe gays have made their case and it's time. I don't think polyamourous groups have done this. Actually, other than those splinter mormon groups I never hear from anyone who even advocates it.

In the not-so-distant-past, at least one news magazine did a story on
a woman with two 'husbands'. (I put that in quotes because she was and
could only be legally married to one but they lived a life of 'two
husbands, one wife'.) It's not a common situation, but, according to
the story, it's not unique to Mormons. (And, of course, we do all
know that polygamy is not an accepted practice in the Mormon Church, right?)

I'm torn on this issue. Probably because you only hear about the
'negative' versions. The recent case in Utah, for example, where
the man had multiple wives (most of which he married when they were
extremely young), dozens and dozens of children and they were sup-
ported by the state.

OTOH, being a Heinlein fan and one who has read his books over and
over again, his fictional Long Family seems to be an example of the
'good' version of polyamory.

Tracey

Polyamory.


"Bill in Co" <Lost In Time@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:upYYb.9885$tL3.6850@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net... Ooops, I forgot. What is the female version of polygamy called? And
why hasn't this marriage issue come up yet, assuming all parties are happy
with the arrangement?

Are you this guy, Bill?

www.fypl.info




"Bill in Co" <Lost In Time@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:LkYYb.9882$tL3.8883@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net... I think it makes sense. How about polygamy though? Nobody has addressed
that yet.

"Amy D" <amykae@joimail.com> wrote in message
news:1038l5gsocal8c8@corp.supernews.com... Oops, were you being sarcastic and assuming that I am thinking wrong like this? Or were you trying to put it into an "understandable" scenario......

No, I wasn't trying to be sarcastic. I'm sorry if it was read that way. I
don't happen to accept the fundamental assumptions that underlie that logic
(in simpler words, I disagree :-), but that's not the same thing as saying
you're wrong.

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:<uKGdnabFn5HWgqndRVn-hA@comcast.com>... Another thread caused me to think about this subject. How would you react if you found that your child was gay?

I would have no problem with it.
Would you disown and disassociate with that child?

Absolutely not.
Would you maintain your present relationship? Would you accept your child's lover into your home and life?

Yes.
Would you stand up for them in a gay marriage and hope that they make it as a couple?

Yes.
Even encourage them to have children by whatever means works best for them?

Only if having children was important to them.
Just curious to see responses.

To me, love does not have to be a gender thing. There's never enough
love to go around anyway. I would not discourage my children loving
anyone, no matter what gender they happen to be.

I just want them to be who they are, and happy.

jen

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:<uKGdnabFn5HWgqndRVn-hA@comcast.com>... Another thread caused me to think about this subject. How would you react if you found that your child was gay?

Over the course of my son's life, I have wondered from time to time so
I have tought about this often. I have not for one moment ever had a
negative thought, I have had worried thoughts about how ignorant and
prejudiced people are and how those prejudiced people might hurt him. Would you disown and disassociate with that child?

I have often thought about what my child would have to do to have me
disown either one of them. I don't "think" that I'd ever completely
turn my back on one of them but if they ever hurt a child or performed
a heinous act of some sort, I don't know.....that would be really
tough. But if they were gay? I think not!
Would you maintain your present relationship? Would you
accept your child's lover into your home and life?

Of course. Anyone who loves and treats my son well is welcome in my
home. I ask him from time to time if so and so is treating him well.
Would you stand up for them in a gay marriage and hope that they make it as a couple? Even encourage them to have children by whatever means works best for them?

My son will make the greatest father on the planet. I see the way he
treats his sister (he was almost 17 when she was born). He cried his
eyes out during my labor, seeing the pain that I was in and he burst
into tears the moment he laid eyes on her. I can't imagine him
without children. He is talking about marrying the woman that he has
been with for a while and they have discussed adoption as an option,
interestingly (that is my current field).
Just curious to see responses.

I hope that Tony responds to this thread. Does anyone know if Tony
has procreated?

caren50@msn.com (Caren) writes:
I hope that Tony responds to this thread. Does anyone know if Tony has procreated?

More than once!

"DrLith" <drlith@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c13sd5$1elptb$1@ID-132000.news.uni-berlin.de... "JWB" <awayspam1243@noplace.com> wrote in message news:6RYYb.59372$Lp.33004@twister.nyc.rr.com... "DrLith" <drlith@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:c11jkn$1d3g4e$1@ID-132000.news.uni-berlin.de... I'll pipe up and say that while I don't necessarily agree, I think there's a logic by which your stance makes sense. If you substituted the word "cancer" for "gay," for example--it would be a very logical set of views to
hold: that you would accept your child if they had cancer, that you have nothing against people with cancer, but that you'd be happier if cancer were reduced or eliminated--not promoted or encouraged. That last part confuses me. Are you suggesting that people might be encouraged to be gay? Or that already gay people are encouraged to come out? Nah, that's not really what I wanted to imply, so even though I realized that might be a possible inference, I left it as written. It was 1 o'clock in the morning! What I really meant to say was something along the lines of "normalized." (again, not that these are *my* views)

I think I understand what you mean - to many, shows like "Queer eye" and
similar have made it seem that being gay is something that is just as normal
as being straight. And I really don't see a problem with this, but I can see
how it makes people take notice that "something" is changing (and it makes
some of them, like Tony and Bill, clearly nervous)

"JWB" <awayspam1243@noplace.com> wrote in message
news:6RYYb.59372$Lp.33004@twister.nyc.rr.com... "DrLith" <drlith@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:c11jkn$1d3g4e$1@ID-132000.news.uni-berlin.de... I'll pipe up and say that while I don't necessarily agree, I think
there's a logic by which your stance makes sense. If you substituted the word "cancer" for "gay," for example--it would be a very logical set of views to hold: that you would accept your child if they had cancer, that you have
nothing against people with cancer, but that you'd be happier if cancer were reduced or eliminated--not promoted or encouraged. That last part confuses me. Are you suggesting that people might be encouraged to be gay? Or that already gay people are encouraged to come
out?

Nah, that's not really what I wanted to imply, so even though I realized
that might be a possible inference, I left it as written. It was 1 o'clock
in the morning!

What I really meant to say was something along the lines of "normalized."

(again, not that these are *my* views)

JWB <awayspam1373@noplace.com> wrote:
I think I understand what you mean - to many, shows like "Queer eye" and similar have made it seem that being gay is something that is just as normal as being straight. And I really don't see a problem with this, but I can see how it makes people take notice that "something" is changing (and it makes some of them, like Tony and Bill, clearly nervous)

Bill is nervous. Tony is near hysteria.

"Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message
news:slrnc39mcs.b5i.tony@home.cigardiary.com... On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 05:18:07 GMT, Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote: Amy D <amykae@joimail.com> writes: urf wrote: > Another thread caused me to think about this subject. > How would you react if you found that your child was gay? > Would you disown and disassociate with that child? > Would you maintain your present relationship? Would you > accept your child's lover into your home and life? > Would you stand up for them in a gay marriage and hope that > they make it as a couple? Even encourage them to have children by > whatever means works best for them? > Just curious to see responses. > Yes, I'd accept my child. And his lover if I had to. This is not something I like talking about though because one of my husband's biggest irrational fears is raising our boys "sissified" and gay..... :) To clarify, I have nothing against gays. I think every woman should have a gay male friend. :) Heck....maybe even every woman should have a lesbian lover once in her life. :) But I am disturbed about the shift to "gay is okay"....... Does any of that make sense? Some of it. It doesn't make sense though to say you have nothing against gays, but are disturbed by the shift to "gay is okay." It makes perfect sense. If someone is gay, it's a bad thing, but I have nothing against people who are gay. I wish they wouldn't be gay, but I'm not going to discriminate against them in the workplace, I'll still have gay friends, etc.

Why do you wish they would not be gay?
But gay is not ok. -Tony -- "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's
time to fertilize your lawn!" Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

"Chrys" <notarealaddress@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:c159ka$1dm2k5$1@ID-198599.news.uni-berlin.de... What I have to wonder there is how does he know his son has never had a date? Is it that he's never seen his son with a girl, or has his son actually admitted to this? My husband told me that he never as much as mentioned anyone he dated to his parents to avoid their questions unless things got serious.
Mostly because we have a pretty good idea of what he does with most of his
time and there just isn't time in it for any serious relationshp. You can
also look at his house and see he's never had a woman in it.

Ted

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:b1pZb.37164$M8.13163@nwrdny02.gnilink.net... Does this seem signifigant to you? Is there anything in this that is worth examining?
Other than it's possible he got the same low libido genes my wife did (if
there are such things) and our other son didn't, no.
And the other revealing component? Maybe you should re-read it first.

I did. Perhaps there was something in it revealing to *you*, but not to me.
Nothing new to me in it.

Ted

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c15saj$1f1jr7$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "Chrys" <notarealaddress@lycos.com> wrote in message news:c159ka$1dm2k5$1@ID-198599.news.uni-berlin.de... What I have to wonder there is how does he know his son has never had
a date? Is it that he's never seen his son with a girl, or has his son actually admitted to this? My husband told me that he never as much
as mentioned anyone he dated to his parents to avoid their questions
unless things got serious. Mostly because we have a pretty good idea of what he does with most of
his time and there just isn't time in it for any serious relationshp. You
can also look at his house and see he's never had a woman in it. Ted

Maybe I'm overly picky here, but saying he doesn't have time for a serious
relationship shouldn't make you assume that he's never had so much as a
single date if he's never told you that. As far as his house, I don't
think you can look at a person's house and decide a woman has never been
in it. Does that mean he's messy? Don't forget there are lots of messy
women out there too that he might not have had to bother cleaning for.

"Chrys" <notarealaddress@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:c15tge$1f4vn3$1@ID-198599.news.uni-berlin.de... Maybe I'm overly picky here, but saying he doesn't have time for a serious relationship shouldn't make you assume that he's never had so much as a single date if he's never told you that. As far as his house, I don't think you can look at a person's house and decide a woman has never been in it. Does that mean he's messy? Don't forget there are lots of messy women out there too that he might not have had to bother cleaning for.
Yes, of course he *could* be dating. We just have a strong sense he's not
and those are some of the reasons. (I think his brother and his brother's
girlfriend have also lamented they need to do something about finding him a
girlfriend...)

Ted

Jake Nichols wrote: On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 23:23:44 GMT, "Bill in Co" <Lost-In-Time@earthlink.net> wrote: Stephanie Stowe wrote: I will go on record as not having a strong opinion one way or the other at this time. I have never heard of polygamy in this country except for some super hyped damnation of Utah mormons who abuse young girls in incestuous polygamous relationships. Pretty abhorent. Is there a mainstream movement looking for rights of polygamy? S A mainstream movement? What difference does that make? Just because a group wants something, makes it good - and vice versa? Does that apply to the KKK too? I think it's irrelevant. Rights are a funny thing.. they apply to everyone equally.. whether you like it or not. If what one person wants to do does not infringe upon the rights of someone else, then no one should be allowed to deny them the ability to do whatever they want.

Well then, let's let children drive cars, drink beer, and smoke cigarettes,
regardless of their age! After all, it doesn't infringe on the rights of
others.

"Bill in Co" <Lost-In-Time@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:6_yZb.3127$aT1.133@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net... Jake Nichols wrote: On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 23:23:44 GMT, "Bill in Co" <Lost-In-Time@earthlink.net> wrote: Stephanie Stowe wrote:> I will go on record as not having a strong opinion one way or the
other at> this time. I have never heard of polygamy in this country except for
some> super hyped damnation of Utah mormons who abuse young girls in
incestuous> polygamous relationships. Pretty abhorent. Is there a mainstream
movement> looking for rights of polygamy?>> S A mainstream movement? What difference does that make? Just
because a group wants something, makes it good - and vice versa? Does that
apply to the KKK too? I think it's irrelevant. Rights are a funny thing.. they apply to everyone equally.. whether you like it or not. If what one person wants to do does not infringe upon the rights of someone else, then no one should be allowed to deny them the ability to do whatever they want. Well then, let's let children drive cars, drink beer, and smoke
cigarettes, regardless of their age! After all, it doesn't infringe on the rights
of others.

Children driving cars doesn't affect anyone else? Care to explain that one?

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 02:01:38 GMT, "Bill in Co"
<Lost-In-Time@earthlink.net> wrote:
Jake Nichols wrote:
Rights are a funny thing.. they apply to everyone equally.. whether you like it or not. If what one person wants to do does not infringe upon the rights of someone else, then no one should be allowed to deny them the ability to do whatever they want.Well then, let's let children drive cars, drink beer, and smoke cigarettes,regardless of their age! After all, it doesn't infringe on the rights ofothers.


Driving cars isn't a *right* anymore than drinking beer or smoking
cigarettes are.

Until someone reaches the Age of Consent, they have no *rights* at
all.. They are at the mercy of their parents or legal guardians.

The legal age for drinking is 21 in most states.. ditto for
cigarettes.. driving is a privelege for ALL of us.. If you screw up,
your priveledge can be taken away from you by the courts.

If driving were a *right* then no matter how many people you run down
or how many times you are stopped for speeding or driving drunk, your
license would never be suspended or revoked.

Rights are things that cannot be taken away from you, no matter who
wants you to have them or not. They cannot be given away.. they cannot
be sold.. they can be *infringes* upon by those who want to deny them
to you.. as in the case of the Goverment.. or people in power or
authority.

I have a right to be happy.. that doesn't mean I can demand that YOU
make me happy.

The Federal Government of the USA recognizes these rights.. and as
such, they are limited from infringing upon them. The founding
documents sets down those limitations. They in no way define the
rights that we as citizens have.

The federal government should NOT be allowed to infringe upon the
rights of consenting adults.

Keep in mind I said *Consenting Adults* ...a minor cannot legally give
consent.. a dog cannot give consent.. a horse cannot give consent... a
mentally retarded person.. by law.. may not be able to give consent.

So.. with that in mind.. again I ask.. Why should YOU or any other
person be allowed to infringe upon the rights of any other consenting
adult?

Who made you the purveyor of all laws? And please dont insult my
intelligence nor yours by claiming that the bible did.. the bible is
god's law for his followers.. it is the rules of conduct for his own
*people* If you choose to follow god's law.. so be it, but no where in
the bible does it say you have the *right* to force others to follow
your beliefs.

JC

"Jake Nichols" <Jake_Nichols@nospam.toughguy.net> wrote in message
news:h7vf30lm8e5touuqn69vp2589c8c1t44d9@4ax.com...
Who made you the purveyor of all laws? And please dont insult my intelligence nor yours by claiming that the bible did.. the bible is god's law for his followers.. it is the rules of conduct for his own *people* If you choose to follow god's law.. so be it, but no where in the bible does it say you have the *right* to force others to follow your beliefs.

Very well said.

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 19:03:03 -0600, Jake Nichols
<Jake_Nichols@nospam.toughguy.net> wrote: On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 02:01:38 GMT, "Bill in Co"<Lost-In-Time@earthlink.net> wrote:Jake Nichols wrote: Rights are a funny thing.. they apply to everyone equally.. whether you like it or not. If what one person wants to do does not infringe upon the rights of someone else, then no one should be allowed to deny them the ability to do whatever they want.Well then, let's let children drive cars, drink beer, and smoke cigarettes,regardless of their age! After all, it doesn't infringe on the rights ofothers. Driving cars isn't a *right* anymore than drinking beer or smoking cigarettes are. Until someone reaches the Age of Consent, they have no *rights* at all.. They are at the mercy of their parents or legal guardians. The legal age for drinking is 21 in most states.. ditto for cigarettes.. driving is a privelege for ALL of us.. If you screw up, your priveledge can be taken away from you by the courts. If driving were a *right* then no matter how many people you run down or how many times you are stopped for speeding or driving drunk, your license would never be suspended or revoked. Rights are things that cannot be taken away from you, no matter who wants you to have them or not. They cannot be given away.. they cannot be sold.. they can be *infringes* upon by those who want to deny them to you.. as in the case of the Goverment.. or people in power or authority. I have a right to be happy.. that doesn't mean I can demand that YOU make me happy. The Federal Government of the USA recognizes these rights.. and as such, they are limited from infringing upon them. The founding documents sets down those limitations. They in no way define the rights that we as citizens have. The federal government should NOT be allowed to infringe upon the rights of consenting adults. Keep in mind I said *Consenting Adults* ...a minor cannot legally give consent.. a dog cannot give consent.. a horse cannot give consent... a mentally retarded person.. by law.. may not be able to give consent. So.. with that in mind.. again I ask.. Why should YOU or any other person be allowed to infringe upon the rights of any other consenting adult? Who made you the purveyor of all laws? And please dont insult my intelligence nor yours by claiming that the bible did.. the bible is god's law for his followers.. it is the rules of conduct for his own *people* If you choose to follow god's law.. so be it, but no where in the bible does it say you have the *right* to force others to follow your beliefs.

Getting married is not a right. If it were a right, then it could not be
refused because you are related to the person, or you are already married,
or you are not a man and a woman.

Since a license is required, it makes it a privilege granted by the state.

It's interesting that you make my point at the beginning of your post then
turn around and appear to contradict yourself later.

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

Jake Nichols wrote: On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 02:01:38 GMT, "Bill in Co" <Lost-In-Time@earthlink.net> wrote: Jake Nichols wrote: Rights are a funny thing.. they apply to everyone equally.. whether you like it or not. If what one person wants to do does not infringe upon the rights of someone else, then no one should be allowed to deny them the ability to do whatever they want. Well then, let's let children drive cars, drink beer, and smoke cigarettes, regardless of their age! After all, it doesn't infringe on the rights of others. Driving cars isn't a *right* anymore than drinking beer or smoking cigarettes are. Until someone reaches the Age of Consent, they have no *rights* at all.. They are at the mercy of their parents or legal guardians. The legal age for drinking is 21 in most states.. ditto for cigarettes.. driving is a privelege for ALL of us.. If you screw up, your priveledge can be taken away from you by the courts. If driving were a *right* then no matter how many people you run down or how many times you are stopped for speeding or driving drunk, your license would never be suspended or revoked. Rights are things that cannot be taken away from you, no matter who wants you to have them or not. They cannot be given away.. they cannot be sold.. they can be *infringes* upon by those who want to deny them to you.. as in the case of the Goverment.. or people in power or authority. I have a right to be happy.. that doesn't mean I can demand that YOU make me happy. The Federal Government of the USA recognizes these rights.. and as such, they are limited from infringing upon them. The founding documents sets down those limitations. They in no way define the rights that we as citizens have. The federal government should NOT be allowed to infringe upon the rights of consenting adults. Keep in mind I said *Consenting Adults* ...a minor cannot legally give consent.. a dog cannot give consent.. a horse cannot give consent... a mentally retarded person.. by law.. may not be able to give consent. So.. with that in mind.. again I ask.. Why should YOU or any other person be allowed to infringe upon the rights of any other consenting adult?

Who said marriage is a right? You?

YOU FIRRST CAREN : Here I go Tony:
Message-ID: <slrnc305o0.2s9.tony@home.cigardiary.com> : So did you have a dad who was in your life? YES

Did he go to your sporting : events, and take you to the father-daughter dance? we never had a father daughter dance or sporting event for women in my day (I am 50)



Did he help you : with your homework, and give you his viewpoint when you asked him how : boys think?

I don't remember if I ever asked him for his viewpoint on what boys
thought and yes, he helped me with my homeword when I asked him which
was not often.



Was he there with your mother loving her, and helping her : raise you?

In my day, mother stayed home and raised the children while dad was
out making the money. It was not how it is today in my family where
dad is as involved as he is. I don't criticize my parents for doing
what they did, but I know that I want it to be different for my
children. And I am making it different. Does it mean that my father
didin't give a crap? Nope. It means that he did not know any better.
Does it mean he wasn't a good father? No worse than any mistake I
might make with my kids.



Did he show you, by example, the way a woman is supposed to : be treated by a man, and explain to you that you don't need to take : **** from a man *ever*?

What the hell does that mean? That a man smokes a cigar and burns his
wife's skin? Does it mean that wife can't tell her husband what her
needs are? Are you for real?
: Do you have any concept of the value of a dad?


Do you have any concept of the value of sarcasm and I'm better than
you? Of course I loved my Dad and I still do. He is not the world's
greatest Dad but he loved me to the best of his ability...should I
tell him to go drop dead because he didn't raise me the way that I
think that children should be raised?


From your statement : above "Do you mean that the man wears the pants, earns the money and : sits on the couch as soon as he gets home?" I'm led to believe that you : don't. I'm not really convinced that you know what a "dad" actually : is.

And according to you, there is really only your terminology that
really explains what a "dad" actually is. Every other explaination is
BS, eh? It's the Tony dictionary of DAD.
: When you can show me that you do, this conversation can continue.

I went for it Mr. Know it all. You know what, you have many
similarities to George Bush. And he nauseates me. :-) I really wish
that you had the intelligence to have a conversation with someone who
disagrees with you without acting as condescending as you do. You
really either like to piss people off and you are so clueless that you
just piss people off without knowing it. Tony, Tony, Tony. Get a
grip Mr. STogie. Go for it. -Tony

On 22 Feb 2004 22:51:20 -0800, Caren
<caren50@msn.com> wrote:

<Snip>
I went for it Mr. Know it all. You know what, you have many similarities to George Bush. And he nauseates me. :-) I really wish that you had the intelligence to have a conversation with someone who disagrees with you without acting as condescending as you do. You really either like to piss people off and you are so clueless that you just piss people off without knowing it. Tony, Tony, Tony. Get a grip Mr. STogie.

Without knowing it? I got fed up with your smarmy, self-rightous attitude
and set out to piss you off. Seems I succeeded. I'd almost like the see
you typing that with the veins bulging out an apoplectic look on your
face.

Maybe you could use a cigar to calm you down. Send me your snail mail
address and I'll send you a nice selection to get you started. :)

But a deal's a deal...

Should one of my girls tell me they are gay, I would be sad, but they are
my daughters and I am called to love them even if I don't like their
behavior.

Would I attend a "gay wedding". No. Would I allow her lesbian lover to
stay over with her at my house. No. Would I pray for her. You bet.

This is the same reaction I'd have if one of them decided to shack up with
some guy.

The difference would be I would go to her hetero wedding should she decide
to marry some guy she was shacking up with because she is making an
attempt to do the right thing.

Getting "married" to a lesbian is not attempting to do the right thing.
It is making a mockery of the right thing.

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

"Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message
news:slrnc3k717.i6e.tony@home.cigardiary.com...
I got fed up with your smarmy, self-rightous attitude and set out to piss you off. Seems I succeeded. I'd almost like the see you typing that with the veins bulging out an apoplectic look on your face.

Like I did to you?

Bill in Co <Lost-In-Time@earthlink.net> wrote:
Who said marriage is a right? You?

The Supreme Court. See Loving v. Virginia.

Tony Miller wrote: On 22 Feb 2004 22:51:20 -0800, Caren <caren50@msn.com> wrote: <Snip> I went for it Mr. Know it all. You know what, you have many similarities to George Bush. And he nauseates me. :-) I really wish that you had the intelligence to have a conversation with someone who disagrees with you without acting as condescending as you do. You really either like to piss people off and you are so clueless that you just piss people off without knowing it. Tony, Tony, Tony. Get a grip Mr. STogie. Without knowing it? I got fed up with your smarmy, self-rightous attitude and set out to piss you off. Seems I succeeded. I'd almost like the see you typing that with the veins bulging out an apoplectic look on your face. Maybe you could use a cigar to calm you down. Send me your snail mail address and I'll send you a nice selection to get you started. :) But a deal's a deal...

What deal? To deliberately piss each other off? It's like a war zone in
here.

caren50@msn.com (Caren) writes:
Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:<slrnc3k717.i6e.tony@home.cigardiary.com>...
I got fed up with your smarmy, self-rightous attitude and set out to piss you off. Now that is funny and put a smile on my face. You are calling my attitude self-rightous?

It is a bit rich, isn't it? Smarmy I don't know about. But Tony's
got at leat as much self-righteousness as anyone else here.

God works in mysterious way Tony.


"Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message
news:slrnc3k717.i6e.tony@home.cigardiary.com... On 22 Feb 2004 22:51:20 -0800, Caren <caren50@msn.com> wrote: <Snip> I went for it Mr. Know it all. You know what, you have many similarities to George Bush. And he nauseates me. :-) I really wish that you had the intelligence to have a conversation with someone who disagrees with you without acting as condescending as you do. You really either like to piss people off and you are so clueless that you just piss people off without knowing it. Tony, Tony, Tony. Get a grip Mr. STogie. Without knowing it? I got fed up with your smarmy, self-rightous attitude and set out to piss you off. Seems I succeeded. I'd almost like the see you typing that with the veins bulging out an apoplectic look on your face. Maybe you could use a cigar to calm you down. Send me your snail mail address and I'll send you a nice selection to get you started. :) But a deal's a deal... Should one of my girls tell me they are gay, I would be sad, but they are my daughters and I am called to love them even if I don't like their behavior. Would I attend a "gay wedding". No. Would I allow her lesbian lover to stay over with her at my house. No. Would I pray for her. You bet. This is the same reaction I'd have if one of them decided to shack up with some guy. The difference would be I would go to her hetero wedding should she decide to marry some guy she was shacking up with because she is making an attempt to do the right thing. Getting "married" to a lesbian is not attempting to do the right thing. It is making a mockery of the right thing. -Tony -- "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's
time to fertilize your lawn!" Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

"Bill in Co." <LostInTime&surly@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<yOq_b.5157$yZ1.543@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.ne t>... Tony Miller wrote: On 22 Feb 2004 22:51:20 -0800, Caren <caren50@msn.com> wrote: <Snip> I went for it Mr. Know it all. You know what, you have many similarities to George Bush. And he nauseates me. :-) I really wish that you had the intelligence to have a conversation with someone who disagrees with you without acting as condescending as you do. You really either like to piss people off and you are so clueless that you just piss people off without knowing it. Tony, Tony, Tony. Get a grip Mr. STogie. Without knowing it? I got fed up with your smarmy, self-rightous attitude and set out to piss you off. Seems I succeeded. I'd almost like the see you typing that with the veins bulging out an apoplectic look on your face. Maybe you could use a cigar to calm you down. Send me your snail mail address and I'll send you a nice selection to get you started. :) But a deal's a deal... What deal? To deliberately piss each other off? It's like a war zone in here.

The war is over. I won. :-)

Doug Anderson wrote: caren50@msn.com (Caren) writes: Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:<slrnc3k717.i6e.tony@home.cigardiary.com>... I got fed up with your smarmy, self-rightous attitude and set out to piss you off. Now that is funny and put a smile on my face. You are calling my attitude self-rightous? It is a bit rich, isn't it? Smarmy I don't know about. But Tony's got at leat as much self-righteousness as anyone else here.

Is this called projection, in psychology?

Bill in Co. wrote: Doug Anderson wrote: caren50@msn.com (Caren) writes: Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:<slrnc3k717.i6e.tony@home.cigardiary.com>...> I got fed up with your smarmy, self-rightous attitude> and set out to piss you off. Now that is funny and put a smile on my face. You are calling my attitude self-rightous?
It is a bit rich, isn't it? Smarmy I don't know about. But Tony's got at leat as much self-righteousness as anyone else here. Is this called projection, in psychology?

I'm pretty sure it's called observation, Bill.

On 23 Feb 2004 15:35:58 -0800, Caren
<caren50@msn.com> wrote: "Bill in Co." <LostInTime&surly@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<yOq_b.5157$yZ1.543@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.ne t>... Tony Miller wrote: On 22 Feb 2004 22:51:20 -0800, Caren <caren50@msn.com> wrote: <Snip>> I went for it Mr. Know it all. You know what, you have many> similarities to George Bush. And he nauseates me. :-) I really wish> that you had the intelligence to have a conversation with someone who> disagrees with you without acting as condescending as you do. You> really either like to piss people off and you are so clueless that you> just piss people off without knowing it. Tony, Tony, Tony. Get a> grip Mr. STogie. Without knowing it? I got fed up with your smarmy, self-rightous attitude and set out to piss you off. Seems I succeeded. I'd almost like the see you typing that with the veins bulging out an apoplectic look on your face. Maybe you could use a cigar to calm you down. Send me your snail mail address and I'll send you a nice selection to get you started. :) But a deal's a deal... What deal? To deliberately piss each other off? It's like a war zone in here. The war is over. I won. :-)

Yup, she won.

-Tony

PS: We say that to make them *think* they won. They're insufferable
otherwise :)

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

Tai wrote: Bill in Co. wrote: Doug Anderson wrote: caren50@msn.com (Caren) writes:> Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message> news:<slrnc3k717.i6e.tony@home.cigardiary.com>...>> I got fed up with your smarmy, self-rightous attitude>> and set out to piss you off.>> Now that is funny and put a smile on my face. You are calling my> attitude self-rightous? It is a bit rich, isn't it? Smarmy I don't know about. But Tony's got at leat as much self-righteousness as anyone else here. Is this called projection, in psychology? I'm pretty sure it's called observation, Bill.

As I said in the other post, I thought when anyone accused the other of
behaviors they did themselves, but were unaware of, it was called projection.
Is that incorrect?

<SNIP a lot>
I wouldn't have a problem with my daughter marrying a black man if she did it for the right reasons and he was Catholic :)

I am coming in the middle here. I have not read all the stuff leading here.
My news server is really flaky. Would the right reasons applying to a black
man the same right reasons as a white man? Would the white man have to be
Catholic too? Should we take from the smiley that you are joking? There's no
wink.


<SNIP more stuff that kinda pains me to read>

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 15:46:51 -0500, Stephanie Stowe
<stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote:<SNIP a lot> I wouldn't have a problem with my daughter marrying a black man if she did it for the right reasons and he was Catholic :) I am coming in the middle here. I have not read all the stuff leading here. My news server is really flaky. Would the right reasons applying to a black man the same right reasons as a white man? Would the white man have to be Catholic too? Should we take from the smiley that you are joking? There's no wink.

The right reason is that she loves him, wants to spend the rest of her
life with him and raise their children together.

The wrong reason is trying to make a "social statement".

And the white man would have to be Catholic too, yes.

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 00:12:10 GMT, Doug Anderson
<ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote: Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> writes: On 24 Feb 2004 11:43:46 -0800, Caren <caren50@msn.com> wrote: Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:<slrnc3llom.2mp.tony@home.cigardiary.com>...> On 23 Feb 2004 13:07:12 -0800, Caren> <caren50@msn.com> wrote:> > Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:<slrnc3k717.i6e.tony@home.cigardiary.com>...> >> On 22 Feb 2004 22:51:20 -0800, Caren> >> <caren50@msn.com> wrote:> >>> >> <Snip>> >>> >> > I went for it Mr. Know it all. You know what, you have many> >> > similarities to George Bush. And he nauseates me. :-) I really wish> >> > that you had the intelligence to have a conversation with someone who> >> > disagrees with you without acting as condescending as you do. You> >> > really either like to piss people off and you are so clueless that you> >> > just piss people off without knowing it. Tony, Tony, Tony. Get a> >> > grip Mr. STogie.> >>> >> Without knowing it?> >> > Good come back Tony. It's the way you talk to most people in here. I> > think that you enjoy pissing people off who don't agree with your> > dogma. That way, if they get pissed off, you can smile arrogantly and> > say, see, you're out of control!> >> > I got fed up with your smarmy, self-rightous attitude> >> and set out to piss you off.> >> > Now that is funny and put a smile on my face. You are calling my> > attitude self-rightous? I'd take it personally if I didn't see you do> > it to so many others in here. It's your MO- but first you usually> > accuse people of not responding to you (when they already did!). It's> > really interesting to observe posting styles in here.> >> > Seems I succeeded. I'd almost like the see> >> you typing that with the veins bulging out an apoplectic look on your> >> face.> >> > Don't flatter yourself, I was pissed but not as pissed as you think> >:-)> >>> >> Maybe you could use a cigar to calm you down. Send me your snail mail> >> address and I'll send you a nice selection to get you started. :)> >> > Yes, cancer is something I look forward to getting-please do send me a> > few.> >>> >> But a deal's a deal...> >>> >> Should one of my girls tell me they are gay, I would be sad, but they are> >> my daughters and I am called to love them even if I don't like their> >> behavior. I find it interesting that you ingored the above. You mean the name calling tirade? Yes, I ignored it. Tony: Caren engaged in no name calling tirade. The only invective above was typed by _you!_

Caren wrote:

: Mr. Know it all.
: You know what, you have many similarities to George Bush. And he
: nauseates me.
: I really wish that you had the intelligence to have a conversation
: with someone who disagrees with you
: you are so clueless
: Get a grip Mr. STogie.

I guess you're either blind or stupid.

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
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Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> writes:
On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 00:12:10 GMT, Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote: Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> writes: On 24 Feb 2004 11:43:46 -0800, Caren <caren50@msn.com> wrote: > Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:<slrnc3llom.2mp.tony@home.cigardiary.com>... >> On 23 Feb 2004 13:07:12 -0800, Caren >> <caren50@msn.com> wrote: >> > Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:<slrnc3k717.i6e.tony@home.cigardiary.com>... >> >> On 22 Feb 2004 22:51:20 -0800, Caren >> >> <caren50@msn.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> <Snip> >> >> >> >> > I went for it Mr. Know it all. You know what, you have many >> >> > similarities to George Bush. And he nauseates me. :-) I really wish >> >> > that you had the intelligence to have a conversation with someone who >> >> > disagrees with you without acting as condescending as you do. You >> >> > really either like to piss people off and you are so clueless that you >> >> > just piss people off without knowing it. Tony, Tony, Tony. Get a >> >> > grip Mr. STogie. >> >> >> >> Without knowing it? >> > >> > Good come back Tony. It's the way you talk to most people in here. I >> > think that you enjoy pissing people off who don't agree with your >> > dogma. That way, if they get pissed off, you can smile arrogantly and >> > say, see, you're out of control! >> > >> > I got fed up with your smarmy, self-rightous attitude >> >> and set out to piss you off. >> > >> > Now that is funny and put a smile on my face. You are calling my >> > attitude self-rightous? I'd take it personally if I didn't see you do >> > it to so many others in here. It's your MO- but first you usually >> > accuse people of not responding to you (when they already did!). It's >> > really interesting to observe posting styles in here. >> > >> > Seems I succeeded. I'd almost like the see >> >> you typing that with the veins bulging out an apoplectic look on your >> >> face. >> > >> > Don't flatter yourself, I was pissed but not as pissed as you think >> >:-) >> >> >> >> Maybe you could use a cigar to calm you down. Send me your snail mail >> >> address and I'll send you a nice selection to get you started. :) >> > >> > Yes, cancer is something I look forward to getting-please do send me a >> > few. >> >> >> >> But a deal's a deal... >> >> >> >> Should one of my girls tell me they are gay, I would be sad, but they are >> >> my daughters and I am called to love them even if I don't like their >> >> behavior. > > I find it interesting that you ingored the above. You mean the name calling tirade? Yes, I ignored it. Tony: Caren engaged in no name calling tirade. The only invective above was typed by _you!_ Caren wrote: : Mr. Know it all. : You know what, you have many similarities to George Bush. And he : nauseates me. : I really wish that you had the intelligence to have a conversation : with someone who disagrees with you : you are so clueless : Get a grip Mr. STogie. I guess you're either blind or stupid.

The only invective there is "Mr. Know it all." Hardly a tirade. And
it doesn't hold a candle to your usual style once you get angry at
someone.

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
And you're teaching her to "believe as I believe because only I know what is right."

DH and I share carefully considered world views, and we do want our children
to believe as we believe (in the broader sense that encompasses moral
behavior, not necessarily in respect to specific political views). In our
opinion, that's a loving and healthy desire, that our children model our own
values. I don't think that wanting children to follow in your footsteps is
wanting "a female version of you."
is a fundamental difference between us. I teach my daughter more about facts and try to educate her rather than sit and tell her what she should think.

I know many children raised in the way you raise your daughter, and they're
all wonderful kids. :-) You know you're doing an excellent job (look at
your son). Likewise, I know many people who raise their children in a
wholly different dynamic ("tell her what she should think"--much more my own
speed) and they're equally wonderful. I respectfully suggest that the
common thread has more to do with loving and respecting your child as a
whole person than whether or not you lay down your beliefs or present them
with facts.
An educated mind can make wiser decisions.

I would feel remiss as a parent if I didn't educate my children in the ways
I feel are right, though (oh, I'm sorry to hijack this thread, ignore me if
you like LOL...I'm so freaking bored ATM... ;-)).
It's the same concept as when they go to college. We will not support their college education if they don't get passing grades. It sounds like bribery to me.

This is why I wanted to respond to your post. I don't agree *at all* that
not supporting your child in college is wrong if he doesn't get passing
grades. But then, I don't believe that we owe our children a college
education anyway. I don't blame any parent who doesn't want to piss money
away, if that parent's child is failing in college. I know my brother, in
college in the early 80s, played Pac Man throughout his freshman year of
school and got kicked out. He paid his own way through the local community
college until he could pay his way at the 4-year university. Why should any
parent subsidize a child who is performing terribly? If the child really
cannot handle the courseload, perhaps that child should even take a break
from college until he feels more prepared, IYSWIM.
My son got a scholarship that paid for tuition and books for two years at our local university. He paid to live in a dorm and worked his way through college. He graduated several years ago and doesn't owe a dime. Another reason I am so proud of him.

That's awesome! :-D DH and I both paid our way through college, and I
think public universities are an excellent option for students who want or
need to support themselves. My nephew, 17, just got $40,000 of academic
money for his college of choice, and he's having an interview on Sunday to
get $40,000 more...that would pay for all of a private university that my
sister and BIL would never have been able to afford. The great thing about
college is that students *can* cobble together funds to pay for it...grants,
scholarships, loans, etc.

Okay, sorry to have jumped in...I need a hobby, lol...

Jennifer

Doug Anderson wrote:
Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> writes:On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 00:12:10 GMT, Doug Anderson<ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote:Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> writes:>On 24 Feb 2004 11:43:46 -0800, Caren><caren50@msn.com> wrote:>>>Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:<slrnc3llom.2mp.tony@home.cigardiary.com>...>>>>>On 23 Feb 2004 13:07:12 -0800, Caren>>><caren50@msn.com> wrote:>>>>>>>Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:<slrnc3k717.i6e.tony@home.cigardiary.com>...>>>>>>>>>On 22 Feb 2004 22:51:20 -0800, Caren>>>>><caren50@msn.com> wrote:>>>>>>>>>><Snip>>>>>>>>>>>>I went for it Mr. Know it all. You know what, you have many>>>>>>similarities to George Bush. And he nauseates me. :-) I really wish>>>>>>that you had the intelligence to have a conversation with someone who>>>>>>disagrees with you without acting as condescending as you do. You>>>>>>really either like to piss people off and you are so clueless that you>>>>>>just piss people off without knowing it. Tony, Tony, Tony. Get a>>>>>>grip Mr. STogie.>>>>>>>>>>Without knowing it?>>>>>>>>Good come back Tony. It's the way you talk to most people in here. I>>>>think that you enjoy pissing people off who don't agree with your>>>>dogma. That way, if they get pissed off, you can smile arrogantly and>>>>say, see, you're out of control!>>>>>>>> I got fed up with your smarmy, self-rightous attitude>>>>>>>>>and set out to piss you off.>>>>>>>>Now that is funny and put a smile on my face. You are calling my>>>>attitude self-rightous? I'd take it personally if I didn't see you do>>>>it to so many others in here. It's your MO- but first you usually>>>>accuse people of not responding to you (when they already did!). It's>>>>really interesting to observe posting styles in here.>>>>>>>> Seems I succeeded. I'd almost like the see>>>>>>>>>you typing that with the veins bulging out an apoplectic look on your>>>>>face.>>>>>>>>Don't flatter yourself, I was pissed but not as pissed as you think>>>>:-)>>>>>>>>>Maybe you could use a cigar to calm you down. Send me your snail mail>>>>>address and I'll send you a nice selection to get you started. :)>>>>>>>>Yes, cancer is something I look forward to getting-please do send me a>>>>few.>>>>>>>>>But a deal's a deal...>>>>>>>>>>Should one of my girls tell me they are gay, I would be sad, but they are>>>>>my daughters and I am called to love them even if I don't like their>>>>>behavior.>>>>I find it interesting that you ingored the above.>>You mean the name calling tirade? Yes, I ignored it.Tony: Caren engaged in no name calling tirade. The only invectiveabove was typed by _you!_Caren wrote:: Mr. Know it all.: You know what, you have many similarities to George Bush. And he: nauseates me.: I really wish that you had the intelligence to have a conversation: with someone who disagrees with you: you are so clueless: Get a grip Mr. STogie.I guess you're either blind or stupid. The only invective there is "Mr. Know it all." Hardly a tirade. And it doesn't hold a candle to your usual style once you get angry at someone.

???

It is still most definitely name-calling.

amy

Jennifer wrote:
"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in messageAnd you're teaching her to "believe as I believe because only I knowwhat is right." DH and I share carefully considered world views, and we do want our children to believe as we believe (in the broader sense that encompasses moral behavior, not necessarily in respect to specific political views). In our opinion, that's a loving and healthy desire, that our children model our own values. I don't think that wanting children to follow in your footsteps is wanting "a female version of you."is a fundamental difference between us. I teach my daughter moreabout facts and try to educate her rather than sit and tell her whatshe should think. I know many children raised in the way you raise your daughter, and they're all wonderful kids. :-) You know you're doing an excellent job (look at your son). Likewise, I know many people who raise their children in a wholly different dynamic ("tell her what she should think"--much more my own speed) and they're equally wonderful. I respectfully suggest that the common thread has more to do with loving and respecting your child as a whole person than whether or not you lay down your beliefs or present them with facts.An educated mind can make wiser decisions. I would feel remiss as a parent if I didn't educate my children in the ways I feel are right, though (oh, I'm sorry to hijack this thread, ignore me if you like LOL...I'm so freaking bored ATM... ;-)).It's the same concept as when they go to college. We will not supporttheir college education if they don't get passing grades.It sounds like bribery to me. This is why I wanted to respond to your post. I don't agree *at all* that not supporting your child in college is wrong if he doesn't get passing grades. But then, I don't believe that we owe our children a college education anyway. I don't blame any parent who doesn't want to piss money away, if that parent's child is failing in college. I know my brother, in college in the early 80s, played Pac Man throughout his freshman year of school and got kicked out. He paid his own way through the local community college until he could pay his way at the 4-year university. Why should any parent subsidize a child who is performing terribly? If the child really cannot handle the courseload, perhaps that child should even take a break from college until he feels more prepared, IYSWIM.My son got a scholarship that paid fortuition and books for two years at our local university. He paid tolive in a dorm and worked his way through college. He graduatedseveral years ago and doesn't owe a dime. Another reason I am soproud of him. That's awesome! :-D DH and I both paid our way through college, and I think public universities are an excellent option for students who want or need to support themselves. My nephew, 17, just got $40,000 of academic money for his college of choice, and he's having an interview on Sunday to get $40,000 more...that would pay for all of a private university that my sister and BIL would never have been able to afford. The great thing about college is that students *can* cobble together funds to pay for it...grants, scholarships, loans, etc. Okay, sorry to have jumped in...I need a hobby, lol... Jennifer
I agree with this for the most part. I paid my own college and my
husband believes that they should pay theirs although I don't. But I do
beilieve whole-heartedly that we will NOT support them pissing away
college. So my parents were probably smart. I did that right off the
bat. :) As did all of my five siblings behind me. If they are
"angel-children" I'll pay....if they are dead set on life on their own
they will pay. Personally, kids take it MUCH MORE seriously if they do
it on their dime and their time. Once they are adults and they live in
our house they will abide by our rules, pay rent, and if they don't go
to college will work.

amy

Tony Miller wrote:
On 23 Feb 2004 15:35:58 -0800, Caren <caren50@msn.com> wrote:"Bill in Co." <LostInTime&surly@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<yOq_b.5157$yZ1.543@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.ne t>...Tony Miller wrote:>On 22 Feb 2004 22:51:20 -0800, Caren><caren50@msn.com> wrote:>><Snip>>>>I went for it Mr. Know it all. You know what, you have many>>similarities to George Bush. And he nauseates me. :-) I really wish>>that you had the intelligence to have a conversation with someone who>>disagrees with you without acting as condescending as you do. You>>really either like to piss people off and you are so clueless that you>>just piss people off without knowing it. Tony, Tony, Tony. Get a>>grip Mr. STogie.>>Without knowing it? I got fed up with your smarmy, self-rightous attitude>and set out to piss you off. Seems I succeeded. I'd almost like the see>you typing that with the veins bulging out an apoplectic look on your>face.>>Maybe you could use a cigar to calm you down. Send me your snail mail>address and I'll send you a nice selection to get you started. :)>>But a deal's a deal...What deal? To deliberately piss each other off? It's like a war zone inhere.The war is over. I won. :-) Yup, she won. -Tony PS: We say that to make them *think* they won. They're insufferable otherwise :)


LMAO!! OMG--how do you make my husband learn that..... :)

amy

PS. Caren didn't "win" with me in snail mail......I just ignored her
finally.....

Caren wrote:

It doesn't make sense. What is SD? Sourdough? Sister Dear? What is BM? Bowel Movement? Birth Mother? Brother married? You got me :-)

SD = stepdaughter
BM = birth mother

Tai
(I was wondering where I'd read Jennifer before)

Amy D wrote: Jennifer wrote:
That's awesome! :-D DH and I both paid our way through college, and I think public universities are an excellent option for students who want or need to support themselves. My nephew, 17, just got $40,000 of academic money for his college of choice, and he's having an interview on Sunday to get $40,000 more...that would pay for all of a private university that my sister and BIL would never have been able to afford. The great thing about college is that students *can* cobble together funds to pay for it...grants, scholarships, loans, etc. Okay, sorry to have jumped in...I need a hobby, lol... Jennifer I agree with this for the most part. I paid my own college and my husband believes that they should pay theirs although I don't. But I do beilieve whole-heartedly that we will NOT support them pissing away college. So my parents were probably smart. I did that right off the bat. :) As did all of my five siblings behind me. If they are "angel-children" I'll pay....if they are dead set on life on their own they will pay. Personally, kids take it MUCH MORE seriously if they do it on their dime and their time. Once they are adults and they live in our house they will abide by our rules, pay rent, and if they don't go to college will work.

My husband and I feel pretty much the same way. Our university system
operates differently to that of the US but there are still fees to pay.
Students can either incur a state-lent debt which varies depending on the
course or pay upfront. In the case of the debt it is paid back as part of a
higher tax rate once the student begins work.

We envision paying most of their upfront fees if our kids apply themselves
and work hard but we might organise it so they actually pay for some fees
and we pay for half a car. Maybe. Like you we recognise that people tend to
value the things they have to work and pay for themselves.

If they want to live at home they can do that board free while studying but
they will have to find their own spending money and we will expect them to
have part time jobs.

Tai

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 23:16:45 -0600, Amy D
<amykae@joimail.com> wrote: Tony Miller wrote: On 23 Feb 2004 15:35:58 -0800, Caren <caren50@msn.com> wrote:"Bill in Co." <LostInTime&surly@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<yOq_b.5157$yZ1.543@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.ne t>...>Tony Miller wrote:>>>On 22 Feb 2004 22:51:20 -0800, Caren>><caren50@msn.com> wrote:>>>><Snip>>>>>>I went for it Mr. Know it all. You know what, you have many>>>similarities to George Bush. And he nauseates me. :-) I really wish>>>that you had the intelligence to have a conversation with someone who>>>disagrees with you without acting as condescending as you do. You>>>really either like to piss people off and you are so clueless that you>>>just piss people off without knowing it. Tony, Tony, Tony. Get a>>>grip Mr. STogie.>>>>Without knowing it? I got fed up with your smarmy, self-rightous attitude>>and set out to piss you off. Seems I succeeded. I'd almost like the see>>you typing that with the veins bulging out an apoplectic look on your>>face.>>>>Maybe you could use a cigar to calm you down. Send me your snail mail>>address and I'll send you a nice selection to get you started. :)>>>>But a deal's a deal...>>What deal? To deliberately piss each other off? It's like a war zone in>here.The war is over. I won. :-) Yup, she won. -Tony PS: We say that to make them *think* they won. They're insufferable otherwise :) LMAO!! OMG--how do you make my husband learn that..... :)

This is a marriage defense mechanism that has worked well for me over the
years. I don't worry about the little things. I let my wife "win" a lot
of the time. This makes her more amenable to letting me "win"
occasionally. We learn to pick our fights.

Some people would rather be "right" than "loved". This, in my opinion,
makes for a really lonely existance :)

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.