A few nights ago we went out to dinner with my fiance's (DF's) younger
brother and his wife. During the course of the conversation, they
started joking about DF's folks and how they relate to each other.
Future SIL did a funny/sad impression of DF's father angrily blaming
his mother for something ridiculous, like stubbing his toe. It went
something like this:

Mom is conversing away with SIL. Dad is listening, then gets up to get
something from the kitchen. Stubs his toe. In anger screams, "Darnit
Mother! If you hadn't been telling that story to SIL, I wouldn't have
stubbed my toe!"

We were all laughing and then SIL added, "It is funny, but it's also
sad how your dad treats your mom. I don't know how she's put up with
it all these years." DF and his younger brother nervously agree; they
both sigh and remark that they had a bizarre childhood in general.*

(*)
I'd like to insert here that his parents may be a bit on the nutty
side, but all in all I like them very much. Sure, they have their
dysfunctions (such as this), but I don't think they're nearly as bad
as DF likes to make them out...

Anyway...

Later in the car on the way home, DF and I are discussing this. He
says that the sad truth is he treated his first wife in just the same
manner as he's seen his dad treat his mom, and like his mother did
over the years, his ex-wife took it from him but then acted out her
own anger in other, more insidious ways.

I remark, "But you don't treat *me* that way. Or is it that we're
still in the honeymoon period so I should be worried you might treat
me that way someday??"

He laughs and says, "No way - I could never treat you that way because
YOU wouldn't put up with it for one moment. I've tried in the past,
and you've quickly put me in my place." (I don't recall this <shrug>
but I guess I must have?).

Then he confesses that this is something he is actively working on,
and that it's a constant battle to bite his tongue and not say
something he knows is stupid and without merit. He asked for my help
in this. He gave me an example of a few days ago when he was in the
bathroom and I heard a big crash when he dropped something. My
immediate reaction was to worriedly call out, "Is everything okay?" He
says he had to bite his tongue because he found himself wanting to
scream back, "Darnit, jen! If you hadn't.... I wouldn't have dropped
this glass!" He *knew* I had absolutely nothing to do with it, and yet
that was the first words that came to his lips.... childhood patterns
repeating themselves!

So he said it would be really helpful, in such situations, if I could
control my own knee-jerk reaction to ask what's the matter; just give
him a few moments to collect himself first. This is going to be
difficult for me, because immediately expressing concern is my own
hard-to-break habit.

The thing that's been bugging me as I dwell on all this is that there
are some surface similiarties between how my ex's parents related, and
how my DF's parents relate. Kinda sorta the blame thing, but mostly
that both couples play this game where dad is smarter than mom, and
dad is always putting mom down for not being so smart.

DF's mom and I had a long talk about this once. She is in awe of her
husband and her son. They both intimidate her and fascinate her with
their uncanny ability to remember and cite facts, figures, dates. She
is a smart cookie herself, and so am I, but we are smart in different
ways than our mates. We don't remember the facts, figures, and dates,
but we remember the global-big-picture sort of stuff and can make
connections. Intuitive thinkers.

Now my DF has had years to polish his skills when it comes to people
who aren't as smart as he is, which is most people, since he has an
incredibly high IQ. So he doesn't put me down, even when I say really
stupid things. Not like his dad can put his mother down. And nowhere
near as horrible as my exs' dad used to put his mother down (Ugh, I
used to hate those family get-togethers... I'd cringe for my ex MIL...
no, she wasn't too bright, but she deserved more respect than her
husband gave her). And yes, my ex used to treat me that same way...
and I would pretty much take it and then act out in more subtle,
insidious ways.

So the past few days I've been wondering why it is that I am attracted
to men who have folks like this??? Why do I find myself in this sort
of relationship (albeit I do seem to be making positive progress)???

It doesn't seem to make any sense, because it's not how *I* was
raised! On the contrary, my father has always demonstrated the utmost
respect for my mother, and has never played these sort of games, and
vice versa. I can't find anything in my childhood that would point to
this sort of pattern in myself.

jen

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0402101605.15c30d1b@posting.google.c om...

So the past few days I've been wondering why it is that I am attracted to men who have folks like this??? Why do I find myself in this sort of relationship (albeit I do seem to be making positive progress)??? It doesn't seem to make any sense, because it's not how *I* was raised! On the contrary, my father has always demonstrated the utmost respect for my mother, and has never played these sort of games, and vice versa. I can't find anything in my childhood that would point to this sort of pattern in myself.

Could it possibly be just a coincidence?

shinypenny wrote:
It doesn't seem to make any sense, because it's not how *I* was raised! On the contrary, my father has always demonstrated the utmost respect for my mother, and has never played these sort of games, and vice versa. I can't find anything in my childhood that would point to this sort of pattern in myself.

Can you think of any other major influence in your life which taught you to
be this way? Did your first 'real' love have parents like that or even
someone like your best female friend whose parents you may have known well?
Uncle/Aunt?

And it may just be a coincidence, too!


Tai

Joy wrote:
Could it possibly be just a coincidence?

lol

I said that, too! I love it when I see that I was thinking the same thing as
someone else at exactly the same time.

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0402101605.15c30d1b@posting.google.c om... He laughs and says, "No way - I could never treat you that way because YOU wouldn't put up with it for one moment. I've tried in the past, and you've quickly put me in my place." (I don't recall this <shrug> but I guess I must have?).

Jen -- would you believe the part in all this that stood out for me was this
bit?
More than once in therapy my wife has talked about things that happened
long, long ago --early in our marriage -- that I have no recollection of.
How she used to try to be affectionate but I rejected her. We even
rationalized how that might have been the case -- that I was so afraid of
future rejection that I didn't want to accept what was offered. Or, more
recently, that my kissing was so rough that's why she learned not to like
kissing. (I admit that in the heat of passion I can get carried away.)
But I wonder... did things really happen that way, or is that how she wants
to believe they happened? (Suppose I was awkward about accepting her
affection -- perhaps she took that as rejection when it wasn't at all -- I
do know that with her one instance of anything is enough to build a complete
habit or pattern from -- if it happens once, that's always how it will
happen.)

Ted

So did I -- I am a little bit bothered, for instance, by the elaborate kind
of theory in Hendrix's stuff ("Are you getting the love you want?") that
says we marry someone who fits an image derived from that of our parents (or
other significant caretakers) -- especially one that embodies the negative
characteristics of them. Or any other kind of theory (Keirsey at least, in
my understanding, doesn't claim that personality similarities or
differences are the reasons we marry -- only how they contribute to a
givenmarriage.)

Ted

"Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c0bujo$14ek4s$1@ID-123442.news.uni-berlin.de... Joy wrote: Could it possibly be just a coincidence? lol I said that, too! I love it when I see that I was thinking the same thing
as someone else at exactly the same time.

>So did I -- I am a little bit bothered, for instance,by the elaborate kind of theory in Hendrix's stuff("Are you getting the love you want?") that says wemarry someone who fits an image derived from that ofour parents (or other significant caretakers) --especially one that embodies the negative characteristicsof them.

What bothers you about it, Ted? IMO, from what I remember
about what you've written about your childhood and how you
describe your wife now, I can see striking similarities
between the way you say your mother acted/believed and how
your wife acts/believes. And your recent epiphany about your
own behavior towards your wife is also similar to the beha-
vior of the males in your life towards their wives. Seems
that, elaborate theory or not, you're an example of how it
fits in at least one instance.

Tracey

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> writes:
"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c8cb5319.0402101605.15c30d1b@posting.google.c om... He laughs and says, "No way - I could never treat you that way because YOU wouldn't put up with it for one moment. I've tried in the past, and you've quickly put me in my place." (I don't recall this <shrug> but I guess I must have?). Jen -- would you believe the part in all this that stood out for me was this bit? More than once in therapy my wife has talked about things that happened long, long ago --early in our marriage -- that I have no recollection of. How she used to try to be affectionate but I rejected her. We even rationalized how that might have been the case -- that I was so afraid of future rejection that I didn't want to accept what was offered. Or, more recently, that my kissing was so rough that's why she learned not to like kissing. (I admit that in the heat of passion I can get carried away.) But I wonder... did things really happen that way, or is that how she wants to believe they happened?

It doesn't matter which very much. And you'll never be able to find
out or settle such an issue. The point is to try to make things
work well for you both _now_.

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:m0smhha350.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu... It doesn't matter which very much. And you'll never be able to find out or settle such an issue. The point is to try to make things work well for you both _now_.

I agree. But as a Conservator (SJ) she lives in the past -- how things
happened (or she remembers them as happening) is very important. When I
try to do something different I am told "but that's not what you
said/wanted/did ..." Change for an SJ is not a sign of progress but of
dishonesty -- either I didn't mean what I said/did before or I don't mean
what I say/do now.

Ted

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> writes:
"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:m0smhha350.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu... It doesn't matter which very much. And you'll never be able to find out or settle such an issue. The point is to try to make things work well for you both _now_. I agree. But as a Conservator (SJ) she lives in the past -- how things happened (or she remembers them as happening) is very important. When I try to do something different I am told "but that's not what you said/wanted/did ..." Change for an SJ is not a sign of progress but of dishonesty -- either I didn't mean what I said/did before or I don't mean what I say/do now.

Yeah. Doesn't your therapist help with this?

I mean the point is not to get drawn into whether she is right or not,
but to move forward with "I'd like things to be like this now"
regardless of whether that means you've changed, or whatever.

shinypenny <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote:
I remark, "But you don't treat *me* that way. Or is it that we're still in the honeymoon period so I should be worried you might treat me that way someday??" He laughs and says, "No way - I could never treat you that way because YOU wouldn't put up with it for one moment. I've tried in the past, and you've quickly put me in my place." (I don't recall this <shrug> but I guess I must have?).

To me, this is the key part of the story. Probably because I have a
nearly identical experience in my own relationship with DH. :-) When
we first got together he would sometimes talk to me in this
condescending, even disdainful tone of voice. I would immediately call
him on it and say don't use that tone of voice on me. And now he never
does that.

His mom told my mom that she had never seen DH treat a woman as well as
he treats me. I am sure this is because, like you, I simply don't allow
it. *But* I also have to give credit to my DH - and your DF - because
they chose women who *wouldn't* allow poor treatment - they didn't want
to continue in that kind of relationship.

>His mom told my mom that she had never seen DH treat awoman as well as he treats me. I am sure this is because,like you, I simply don't allow it. *But* I also have togive credit to my DH - and your DF - because they chosewomen who *wouldn't* allow poor treatment - they didn't wantto continue in that kind of relationship.

You know, EA, I had an experience in my life that was kinda
the same but different specifics that I've wondered about
off and on for years now. A long time ago (well, 18 or 19
years now), I dated a guy for about 6 months. He was nothing
but a perfect gentleman to me. He opened doors, he never was
condescending or treated me badly, he never even came close
to ever trying to physically hurt me. It ended badly when he
decided that he needed to find a 'replacement' girlfriend a
couple of weeks before I actually *left*, but, hey, those
things happen. <shrug> Anyway....about 3 or 4 months after
I had left, I received a letter from the girl/woman he had
started seeing while still seeing me. She told me how badly
he treated her. He was dismissive of her and her opinions and,
more importantly (IMO), he was starting to be physically
abusive to her. He hadn't hit her (yet), but he had pushed
her, he physically restrained her from leaving when they
were having an argument, he had pinched her arm so hard one
night he had left bruises, etc. To me, it was an indication
that he was working up to hitting her.

What she wanted to know was *why* he would treat her that
way when she knew he hadn't treated me that way. (She knew
that because my best friend was still there and she had
asked my BF.) And I really didn't know what to tell her.
I don't remember having any kind of conversations where I
said 'The first time you're physically abusive will be the
last time you ever have the chance to be', I don't remember
any time when I said 'Hey, don't talk to me that way. Don't
treat me that way.' I don't remember *anything* that would
have told him that treating me that way wasn't acceptable
to me. And I'm sure she didn't tell him that he could do
these things to her and treat her that way and she would
still end up marrying him (which she did.)

Over the years, when I've thought about it or had reason
to discuss it, I've come up with possibilities. Like, I was
on an even par with him physically as far as build, strength,
weight, etc., if I didn't outweigh him and have a larger
build than he did while she was quite a bit littler in build
and strength than he was so maybe there was a bit of a 'Man,
Tracey could kick my *** if I did that to her' going on that
wasn't there with her. Or the fact that our relationship was
totally different than the one they had. When we started dating,
it was quite clear from the beginning that we were 'just' dating.
He did not consider me 'marriage' material because of my age
(I was 5 or 6 years older than he was), my marital status
(divorced), my religion (non-practicing anything, he was Catholic)
and because I was due to rotate out in 6 months while he had just
arrived and would be there for 18 months. OTOH, she was more
'marriage' material and their relationship was not a 'way to
kill time' thing like ours basically was. Maybe he felt the
need to establish his 'dominance' during their dating so he
would have while they were married.

But, then again, what I usually come back to is that I think
he *knew*, at some level, that he could do these things to
her and she wouldn't leave the relationship because of them.
(And this was proven to be true. At least for a while. She
continued dating him, married him and they were together for,
oh, I don't know, 6 or 8 years before they divorced.) Whereas
I believe that the first physical thing he had done to me
would have meant the end of our relationship at the very least
and probably big trouble for him because I wouldn't have taken
it. (I haven't ever had the opportunity to test this belief
because I have never been physically abused in a relationship,
but, as near as I can be, I'm sure this is what would have
happened if he had treated me the way he treated her.)

It sure is a puzzlement and it sure has made me think over the
years.

Tracey

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c0dkge$15m3mk$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... So did I -- I am a little bit bothered, for instance, by the elaborate
kind of theory in Hendrix's stuff ("Are you getting the love you want?") that says we marry someone who fits an image derived from that of our parents
(or other significant caretakers) -- especially one that embodies the negative characteristics of them. Or any other kind of theory (Keirsey at least,
in my understanding, doesn't claim that personality similarities or differences are the reasons we marry -- only how they contribute to a givenmarriage.) Ted "Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c0bujo$14ek4s$1@ID-123442.news.uni-berlin.de... Joy wrote: Could it possibly be just a coincidence? lol I said that, too! I love it when I see that I was thinking the same
thing as someone else at exactly the same time.

I think it is without question that we are influenced by our experiences
as children. Only the extent is in question.

While on the subject, investigate the subject of "imprinting" in human
behavior.

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5on07pa2kp.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu... "Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> writes: I agree. But as a Conservator (SJ) she lives in the past -- how things happened (or she remembers them as happening) is very important. When
I try to do something different I am told "but that's not what you said/wanted/did ..." Change for an SJ is not a sign of progress but
of dishonesty -- either I didn't mean what I said/did before or I don't
mean what I say/do now. Yeah. Doesn't your therapist help with this?
Slowly -- mostly by pointing out to both of us that is not within my wife's
nature
to change. More than once he's (figuratively) referred to her Icelandic
heritage
as having 1,000 years of not changing -- the roots are too deep.
I mean the point is not to get drawn into whether she is right or not, but to move forward with "I'd like things to be like this now" regardless of whether that means you've changed, or whatever.

Yes, that should be the point -- but how do I get her to stay in the present
rather than retreat to the past?

Ted

Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote:
What she wanted to know was *why* he would treat her that way when she knew he hadn't treated me that way.

Fascinating story! I took a self defense class once called Model
Mugging, and they quoted research that women who were prepared to fight
back were attacked much less frequently, even by strangers. How would
the stranger know? Body language maybe.