As part of our weekly "date" at the grocery store my wife and I picked
up Valentines today. I'd forgotten how painful it is for me to read
through them, looking for one I can give her. There are many I'd
*like* to be able to give her -- ones that have sentiments I wish I
felt, wish I could say honestly, but I just can't.

I want to be in love with her -- but I can't pretend to feel what I
don't feel, give thanks for things that aren't there, make promises
that aren't within me.

Sigh.

Ted

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 20:20:26 GMT, Seeker
<anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote: As part of our weekly "date" at the grocery store my wife and I picked up Valentines today. I'd forgotten how painful it is for me to read through them, looking for one I can give her. There are many I'd *like* to be able to give her -- ones that have sentiments I wish I felt, wish I could say honestly, but I just can't. I want to be in love with her -- but I can't pretend to feel what I don't feel, give thanks for things that aren't there, make promises that aren't within me.

Jeez! Why don't you try a variant of Pascal's wager. Treat your wife the
way you would treat her if you felt like you would like to feel about her.
Do that for a month *faithfully* and let us all know what happens.

If you don't want to try it, stop your whining here.

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

In article <slrnc2al9n.h75.tony@home.cigardiary.com>, Tony Miller
<tony@cigardiary.com> wrote:
Jeez! Why don't you try a variant of Pascal's wager. Treat your wife the way you would treat her if you felt like you would like to feel about her.

As best I can that's what I have been doing (except that if I truly
loved her, according to her, we wouldn't continue to be going to
marriage counselling.) But I can't *tell* her things that aren't
true -- I'm neither a good liar nor a good actor.

Ted

Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:<slrnc2al9n.h75.tony@home.cigardiary.com>... On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 20:20:26 GMT, Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote: As part of our weekly "date" at the grocery store my wife and I picked up Valentines today. I'd forgotten how painful it is for me to read through them, looking for one I can give her. There are many I'd *like* to be able to give her -- ones that have sentiments I wish I felt, wish I could say honestly, but I just can't. I want to be in love with her -- but I can't pretend to feel what I don't feel, give thanks for things that aren't there, make promises that aren't within me. Jeez! Why don't you try a variant of Pascal's wager. Treat your wife the way you would treat her if you felt like you would like to feel about her. Do that for a month *faithfully* and let us all know what happens. If you don't want to try it, stop your whining here. -Tony


Ted...I do know how you feel. Some of the Valentine messages are ever
so mushy and gushy and don't say how I really feel. Dig deep and see
if you can find one that says how you feel without all the goosh.
Tony, if you are so tired of the 'whining" then your one of your
choices is to ignore the messages. Because you are happily in love
and have all that you want in life, does not give you the right to be
intolerant of those who are not as lucky. I read your most of your
posts and a lot of the time you have some words of wisdom, you also
have a tone of arrogance and disconnect for those who are not as
fortunate as you.

Having a great marriage is not simply a reflection of how wonderful
you are. Some of it is genes. Some of it is luck. Some of it how
you were raised. When you are lucky enough to be in a relationship
that is not fraught with confusion, pain , indecision, it does not
give you the right to be arrogant.

That's my two cents. Ted, I feel the same way that you do on all
occassions when it's time to send my parents cards for birthdays,
holidays, mother and fathers day. Reading the cards that are mush and
gush nauseate me. They make me long for having parents that I could
really send the cards to, but I know that I can't. So I usually go
for the humorous cards. That usually works. Good luck.

If you want, you can send me a mushy email card that you wish you
could send your wife. :-)

Tony Miller wrote: On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 20:20:26 GMT, Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote: As part of our weekly "date" at the grocery store my wife and I picked up Valentines today. I'd forgotten how painful it is for me to read through them, looking for one I can give her. There are many I'd *like* to be able to give her -- ones that have sentiments I wish I felt, wish I could say honestly, but I just can't. I want to be in love with her -- but I can't pretend to feel what I don't feel, give thanks for things that aren't there, make promises that aren't within me. Jeez! Why don't you try a variant of Pascal's wager. Treat your wife the way you would treat her if you felt like you would like to feel about her. Do that for a month *faithfully* and let us all know what happens. If you don't want to try it, stop your whining here. -Tony --

Agreed! This really isn't any different than when I said to a woman
"do it anyway". Fake it till you make it. Eventually, it will become
natural....or it won't....and there is your answer.

Nothing in the bible says "don't pretend to love your wife".

Ted, if she doesn't "feel love" how on earth do you expect to get beyond
where you are?

amy
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time to fertilize your lawn!" Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

Caren wrote: Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:<slrnc2al9n.h75.tony@home.cigardiary.com>... On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 20:20:26 GMT, Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote: As part of our weekly "date" at the grocery store my wife and I picked up Valentines today. I'd forgotten how painful it is for me to read through them, looking for one I can give her. There are many I'd *like* to be able to give her -- ones that have sentiments I wish I felt, wish I could say honestly, but I just can't. I want to be in love with her -- but I can't pretend to feel what I don't feel, give thanks for things that aren't there, make promises that aren't within me. Jeez! Why don't you try a variant of Pascal's wager. Treat your wife the way you would treat her if you felt like you would like to feel about her. Do that for a month *faithfully* and let us all know what happens. If you don't want to try it, stop your whining here. -Tony Ted...I do know how you feel. Some of the Valentine messages are ever so mushy and gushy and don't say how I really feel. Dig deep and see if you can find one that says how you feel without all the goosh. Tony, if you are so tired of the 'whining" then your one of your choices is to ignore the messages. Because you are happily in love and have all that you want in life, does not give you the right to be intolerant of those who are not as lucky. I read your most of your posts and a lot of the time you have some words of wisdom, you also have a tone of arrogance and disconnect for those who are not as fortunate as you. Having a great marriage is not simply a reflection of how wonderful you are. Some of it is genes. Some of it is luck. Some of it how you were raised. When you are lucky enough to be in a relationship that is not fraught with confusion, pain , indecision, it does not give you the right to be arrogant. That's my two cents. Ted, I feel the same way that you do on all occassions when it's time to send my parents cards for birthdays, holidays, mother and fathers day. Reading the cards that are mush and gush nauseate me. They make me long for having parents that I could really send the cards to, but I know that I can't. So I usually go for the humorous cards. That usually works. Good luck. If you want, you can send me a mushy email card that you wish you could send your wife. :-)

And sometimes, Caren, it is just a matter of **** or get off the pot.

Rarely, are there "perfect marriages" by luck, genes, or how you were
raised. They take alot of work.

I doubt even Urf would say it didn't take any action on his part to
have a great marriage.

amy

caren50@msn.com (Caren) wrote in message news:<3754f0b3.0402072103.6fded4bb@posting.google.com>... Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:<slrnc2al9n.h75.tony@home.cigardiary.com>... On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 20:20:26 GMT, Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote: As part of our weekly "date" at the grocery store my wife and I picked up Valentines today. I'd forgotten how painful it is for me to read through them, looking for one I can give her. There are many I'd *like* to be able to give her -- ones that have sentiments I wish I felt, wish I could say honestly, but I just can't. I want to be in love with her -- but I can't pretend to feel what I don't feel, give thanks for things that aren't there, make promises that aren't within me. Jeez! Why don't you try a variant of Pascal's wager. Treat your wife the way you would treat her if you felt like you would like to feel about her. Do that for a month *faithfully* and let us all know what happens. If you don't want to try it, stop your whining here. -Tony Ted...I do know how you feel. Some of the Valentine messages are ever so mushy and gushy and don't say how I really feel. Dig deep and see if you can find one that says how you feel without all the goosh.

Well, I got the impression that Ted *loves* all the goosh... just
doesn't want or feel like he can lavish it on his wife. And I'm fairly
sure that Ted would be absolutely *thrilled* to receive a mushy card
from that pharmacist friend of his.
Tony, if you are so tired of the 'whining" then your one of your choices is to ignore the messages. Because you are happily in love and have all that you want in life, does not give you the right to be intolerant of those who are not as lucky. I read your most of your posts and a lot of the time you have some words of wisdom, you also have a tone of arrogance and disconnect for those who are not as fortunate as you. Having a great marriage is not simply a reflection of how wonderful you are. Some of it is genes. Some of it is luck. Some of it how you were raised. When you are lucky enough to be in a relationship that is not fraught with confusion, pain , indecision, it does not give you the right to be arrogant.

Actually I think that Ted displays a lot of arrogance, too. He seems
to feel as if he's above all the suggestions and advice people on this
group have offered over the months and years, that they could never
apply to him and his marriage.

I also think it is quite arrogant to expect his wife to give him the
affection he deserves, to change herself into the person he wants to
be married to, when he's not willing to do the same for her.

The worst thing, IMHO, is Ted's continual attitude of disrespect for
his wife.
That's my two cents. Ted, I feel the same way that you do on all occassions when it's time to send my parents cards for birthdays, holidays, mother and fathers day. Reading the cards that are mush and gush nauseate me. They make me long for having parents that I could really send the cards to, but I know that I can't. So I usually go for the humorous cards. That usually works. Good luck. If you want, you can send me a mushy email card that you wish you could send your wife. :-)

So it's not that you don't like mushy cards, and you actually wouldn't
mind receiving one yourself? You just feel uncomfortable giving one to
others in your life?

Me, I'm not a card person in general. I think the industry is a huge
rip-off and I have long avoided buying into it myself. But my sweetie
is a big card person and will often send me a mushy card just because.
So I've gotten into the habit of giving him cards because I like to
see him smile. I already picked out his V-day card a few weeks ago.
He's also getting a framed photo of us for his office.

jen

Amy D <amykae@joimail.com> wrote in message news:<4025C6BC.AFBA652D@joimail.com>... Caren wrote: Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:<slrnc2al9n.h75.tony@home.cigardiary.com>... On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 20:20:26 GMT, Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote: > As part of our weekly "date" at the grocery store my wife and I picked > up Valentines today. I'd forgotten how painful it is for me to read > through them, looking for one I can give her. There are many I'd > *like* to be able to give her -- ones that have sentiments I wish I > felt, wish I could say honestly, but I just can't. > > I want to be in love with her -- but I can't pretend to feel what I > don't feel, give thanks for things that aren't there, make promises > that aren't within me. Jeez! Why don't you try a variant of Pascal's wager. Treat your wife the way you would treat her if you felt like you would like to feel about her. Do that for a month *faithfully* and let us all know what happens. If you don't want to try it, stop your whining here. -Tony Ted...I do know how you feel. Some of the Valentine messages are ever so mushy and gushy and don't say how I really feel. Dig deep and see if you can find one that says how you feel without all the goosh. Tony, if you are so tired of the 'whining" then your one of your choices is to ignore the messages. Because you are happily in love and have all that you want in life, does not give you the right to be intolerant of those who are not as lucky. I read your most of your posts and a lot of the time you have some words of wisdom, you also have a tone of arrogance and disconnect for those who are not as fortunate as you. Having a great marriage is not simply a reflection of how wonderful you are. Some of it is genes. Some of it is luck. Some of it how you were raised. When you are lucky enough to be in a relationship that is not fraught with confusion, pain , indecision, it does not give you the right to be arrogant. That's my two cents. Ted, I feel the same way that you do on all occassions when it's time to send my parents cards for birthdays, holidays, mother and fathers day. Reading the cards that are mush and gush nauseate me. They make me long for having parents that I could really send the cards to, but I know that I can't. So I usually go for the humorous cards. That usually works. Good luck. If you want, you can send me a mushy email card that you wish you could send your wife. :-) And sometimes, Caren, it is just a matter of **** or get off the pot. Rarely, are there "perfect marriages" by luck, genes, or how you were raised. They take alot of work. I doubt even Urf would say it didn't take any action on his part to have a great marriage. amy


Actually Amy, Urf has said that he is truly lucky. Not all great
marriages take a lot of work. And some so-so marriages take tons of
work. Urf, in the past, has said that he was lazy and left a lot for
his wife to do when raising their boys.

Yeah, I know about **** or get off the pot, however, everyone has
their own time frame. Sometimes Ted's story gets to me, but I do
understand that it's not easy. I left a marriage when I was in my
early 30's. Today at 50 it is totally harder to think of leaving.
Ted is 60. Everyone is different and if venting here helps Ted cope,
then let it be. Anyone who is sick of the whining has the choice of
ignoring the threads.

Sometimes all anyone wants in life is a bit of compassion. Nothing
more.

in article 070220042259431315%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com, Seeker at
anon-30263@anon.twwells.com wrote on 2/7/04 9:59 PM:
In article <slrnc2al9n.h75.tony@home.cigardiary.com>, Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote: Jeez! Why don't you try a variant of Pascal's wager. Treat your wife the way you would treat her if you felt like you would like to feel about her. As best I can that's what I have been doing (except that if I truly loved her, according to her, we wouldn't continue to be going to marriage counselling.) But I can't *tell* her things that aren't true -- I'm neither a good liar nor a good actor. Ted


Then buy a blank card, and write something yourself. Or, better yet, buy a
piece of card stock, find a photograph that you think might mean something
to her, paste it on the front and then write a message about that
photograph. Or find some passage of writing that jerks at you, and use that.

M.

On 7 Feb 2004 21:03:29 -0800, Caren
<caren50@msn.com> wrote: Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:<slrnc2al9n.h75.tony@home.cigardiary.com>... On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 20:20:26 GMT, Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote: As part of our weekly "date" at the grocery store my wife and I picked up Valentines today. I'd forgotten how painful it is for me to read through them, looking for one I can give her. There are many I'd *like* to be able to give her -- ones that have sentiments I wish I felt, wish I could say honestly, but I just can't. I want to be in love with her -- but I can't pretend to feel what I don't feel, give thanks for things that aren't there, make promises that aren't within me. Jeez! Why don't you try a variant of Pascal's wager. Treat your wife the way you would treat her if you felt like you would like to feel about her. Do that for a month *faithfully* and let us all know what happens. If you don't want to try it, stop your whining here. -Tony Ted...I do know how you feel. Some of the Valentine messages are ever so mushy and gushy and don't say how I really feel. Dig deep and see if you can find one that says how you feel without all the goosh. Tony, if you are so tired of the 'whining" then your one of your choices is to ignore the messages. Because you are happily in love and have all that you want in life, does not give you the right to be intolerant of those who are not as lucky. I read your most of your posts and a lot of the time you have some words of wisdom, you also have a tone of arrogance and disconnect for those who are not as fortunate as you.

Caren, support takes different forms. Sometimes a kick in the *** is
required. My problem is not with Ted's "fortune", it's with Ted's
continuing complaints without wanting to do what is required to make it
better or leave.

His wife is not cooperating. He refuses to divorce her. He prefers to
stay in the situation he's in, and as such is totally responsible for his
plight.
Having a great marriage is not simply a reflection of how wonderful you are. Some of it is genes. Some of it is luck. Some of it how you were raised. When you are lucky enough to be in a relationship that is not fraught with confusion, pain , indecision, it does not give you the right to be arrogant.

Part of it is discernment, it's not genes, it's not luck. It's looking
logically at your potential spouse and deciding if this is the person for
you. It takes two to make a marriage. It takes two to keep a marriage
strong. It takes two to save a marriage. If only one wants to save a
marriage, it's unfortunate, but it can't be done. The remaining person
has two choices.

1) Deal with it.

2) Leave.
That's my two cents. Ted, I feel the same way that you do on all occassions when it's time to send my parents cards for birthdays, holidays, mother and fathers day. Reading the cards that are mush and gush nauseate me. They make me long for having parents that I could really send the cards to, but I know that I can't. So I usually go for the humorous cards. That usually works. Good luck. If you want, you can send me a mushy email card that you wish you could send your wife. :-)

:)

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

Tony Miller wrote: On 7 Feb 2004 21:03:29 -0800, Caren <caren50@msn.com> wrote: Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:<slrnc2al9n.h75.tony@home.cigardiary.com>... On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 20:20:26 GMT, Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote:> As part of our weekly "date" at the grocery store my wife and I picked> up Valentines today. I'd forgotten how painful it is for me to read> through them, looking for one I can give her. There are many I'd> *like* to be able to give her -- ones that have sentiments I wish I> felt, wish I could say honestly, but I just can't.>> I want to be in love with her -- but I can't pretend to feel what I> don't feel, give thanks for things that aren't there, make promises> that aren't within me. Jeez! Why don't you try a variant of Pascal's wager. Treat your wife the way you would treat her if you felt like you would like to feel about her. Do that for a month *faithfully* and let us all know what happens. If you don't want to try it, stop your whining here. -Tony Ted...I do know how you feel. Some of the Valentine messages are ever so mushy and gushy and don't say how I really feel. Dig deep and see if you can find one that says how you feel without all the goosh. Tony, if you are so tired of the 'whining" then your one of your choices is to ignore the messages. Because you are happily in love and have all that you want in life, does not give you the right to be intolerant of those who are not as lucky. I read your most of your posts and a lot of the time you have some words of wisdom, you also have a tone of arrogance and disconnect for those who are not as fortunate as you. Caren, support takes different forms. Sometimes a kick in the *** is required. My problem is not with Ted's "fortune", it's with Ted's continuing complaints without wanting to do what is required to make it better or leave. His wife is not cooperating. He refuses to divorce her. He prefers to stay in the situation he's in, and as such is totally responsible for his plight. Having a great marriage is not simply a reflection of how wonderful you are. Some of it is genes. Some of it is luck. Some of it how you were raised. When you are lucky enough to be in a relationship that is not fraught with confusion, pain , indecision, it does not give you the right to be arrogant. Part of it is discernment, it's not genes, it's not luck. It's looking logically at your potential spouse and deciding if this is the person for you. It takes two to make a marriage. It takes two to keep a marriage strong. It takes two to save a marriage. If only one wants to save a marriage, it's unfortunate, but it can't be done. The remaining person has two choices. 1) Deal with it. 2) Leave.

Actually there are 3 choices. Add "not deal with it" to the list above.
That is another choice.

shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) wrote in message news:<c8cb5319.0402080729.4b8907a8@posting.google.com>... caren50@msn.com (Caren) wrote in message news:<3754f0b3.0402072103.6fded4bb@posting.google.com>... Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:<slrnc2al9n.h75.tony@home.cigardiary.com>... On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 20:20:26 GMT, Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote: > As part of our weekly "date" at the grocery store my wife and I picked > up Valentines today. I'd forgotten how painful it is for me to read > through them, looking for one I can give her. There are many I'd > *like* to be able to give her -- ones that have sentiments I wish I > felt, wish I could say honestly, but I just can't. > > I want to be in love with her -- but I can't pretend to feel what I > don't feel, give thanks for things that aren't there, make promises > that aren't within me. Jeez! Why don't you try a variant of Pascal's wager. Treat your wife the way you would treat her if you felt like you would like to feel about her. Do that for a month *faithfully* and let us all know what happens. If you don't want to try it, stop your whining here. -Tony Ted...I do know how you feel. Some of the Valentine messages are ever so mushy and gushy and don't say how I really feel. Dig deep and see if you can find one that says how you feel without all the goosh. Well, I got the impression that Ted *loves* all the goosh... just doesn't want or feel like he can lavish it on his wife. And I'm fairly sure that Ted would be absolutely *thrilled* to receive a mushy card from that pharmacist friend of his.

I guess that I said it wrong. The mush and gush is hard to deal with
when those aren't appropriate for the relationship that you're in. Tony, if you are so tired of the 'whining" then your one of your choices is to ignore the messages. Because you are happily in love and have all that you want in life, does not give you the right to be intolerant of those who are not as lucky. I read your most of your posts and a lot of the time you have some words of wisdom, you also have a tone of arrogance and disconnect for those who are not as fortunate as you. Having a great marriage is not simply a reflection of how wonderful you are. Some of it is genes. Some of it is luck. Some of it how you were raised. When you are lucky enough to be in a relationship that is not fraught with confusion, pain , indecision, it does not give you the right to be arrogant. Actually I think that Ted displays a lot of arrogance, too. He seems to feel as if he's above all the suggestions and advice people on this group have offered over the months and years, that they could never apply to him and his marriage.

I guess I see Ted as feeling like a victim, not as if he is above
everyone's suggestions. In some ways he is in denial (aren't we
all?). I have never perceived him as arrogant. I also think it is quite arrogant to expect his wife to give him the affection he deserves, to change herself into the person he wants to be married to, when he's not willing to do the same for her. The worst thing, IMHO, is Ted's continual attitude of disrespect for his wife.

I kind of feel sorry for the both of them. That's my two cents. Ted, I feel the same way that you do on all occassions when it's time to send my parents cards for birthdays, holidays, mother and fathers day. Reading the cards that are mush and gush nauseate me. They make me long for having parents that I could really send the cards to, but I know that I can't. So I usually go for the humorous cards. That usually works. Good luck. If you want, you can send me a mushy email card that you wish you could send your wife. :-) So it's not that you don't like mushy cards, and you actually wouldn't mind receiving one yourself? You just feel uncomfortable giving one to others in your life?

YEAH, it's not that I mind the mushy cards, I mind that I have no one
to send mushy to! When I read a card for a mother in law for mother's
day, I could vomit when I read the mushy ones. Then I have to search
high and low for a mother in law that I can barely tolerate. Does
that make sense? I have often fantasized about a card company about
how you really feel about people :-)
Me, I'm not a card person in general. I think the industry is a huge rip-off and I have long avoided buying into it myself. But my sweetie is a big card person and will often send me a mushy card just because. So I've gotten into the habit of giving him cards because I like to see him smile. I already picked out his V-day card a few weeks ago. He's also getting a framed photo of us for his office. jen


Before my husband got to live together (not only in the same house,
but in the same state) we both supported the card industry. I just
loved standing in the card store looking at all of the cards that
helped me express my love and devotion to my husband. I think I sent
about 4 cards a week. He was always (still is) good with the words
on paper if you catch my drift. Now that my husband is no longer
driving a truck and has his own office, I gave him a few framed
pictures of our daughter for his desk. He asked for one of me. I
decided that I would try to draw a picture of his favorite picture of
us together last summer. I am now taking a drawing class with my
daughter once a week and I realize how much learning I have to do
before I can even attempt this picture.

On 8 Feb 2004 13:45:22 -0800, Caren
<caren50@msn.com> wrote:

<Snip>
YEAH, it's not that I mind the mushy cards, I mind that I have no one to send mushy to! When I read a card for a mother in law for mother's day, I could vomit when I read the mushy ones. Then I have to search high and low for a mother in law that I can barely tolerate. Does that make sense? I have often fantasized about a card company about how you really feel about people :-)

To Mother-in-law... I wish your son was adopted and the Birth Mother
came out of the woodwork and won the lawsuit. :)) (1)

-Tony

(1) I love my Mother In Law. Had I not liked my in-laws I would have
never married my wife.

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

In article <c8cb5319.0402080729.4b8907a8@posting.google.com>,
shinypenny <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote:
The worst thing, IMHO, is Ted's continual attitude of disrespect for his wife.

Jen -- thanks for saying this at least one more time. I'm pretty sure
you've said it before, as have either Tai or Sheila or both and
probably others as well. It took one more time for it to sink in. I
now admit it to myself and started to look at the reasons why. (I
don't think you change behavior before having some idea of where it
comes from -- not that that necesarily gives you many clues as to what
to do, but I think it's important to understand at least somewhat why
things are the way they are.) I'm starting to get some inklings of
what's going on. Let me ponder them awhile. (Part of it is I took a
mental look at all of my significant role models -- at least three --
for how a husband behaves towards a wife and what I saw was not
pretty.)

Ted

Seeker wrote:
I'm starting to get some inklings of what's going on. Let me ponder them awhile. (Part of it is I took a mental look at all of my significant role models -- at least three -- for how a husband behaves towards a wife and what I saw was not pretty.)

Ted, in view of what you've written above and with respect to your wish to
be kissed properly before you turn 60 I offer the following as a plan of
action.

When you wake up in the morning, move towards your wife, find and gently
press her hand. Kiss her palm or knuckles from time to time.

Before you part from her to go to work, smile, look into her eyes, lightly
touch her cheek with your hand. Some mornings tell her you'll be thinking
about her. Not every morning. If she's still asleep or dozing press your
cheek to hers, kiss her brow and murmur goodbye.

When you come home, let a smile light up your face when you see her. Tell
her you thought of her today (not the same day you told her you would be
thinking of her), move towards her and clasp her gently (not tightly) in
your arms briefly, touch your lips to her cheek and if you can, sigh
happily, or just relax as if you were coming home to her arms. If she has
her arms full or is in the middle of something, wait a little and then
gently draw her attention to you.

Try to have at least one tidbit of news, thoughts, funny stories to tell
her.

Make it about you wanting to touch her without wanting anything back from
her initially. Keep it casual, loose, brief and pleasant. Enjoy the contact
and show that you enjoy it.

Look for an opportunity during the evening when you're both smiling, perhaps
while sharing a joke, and give her a spontaneous hug and a quick kiss on the
mouth.

Take it slowly but over a week or two if your wife doesn't start to beat you
off with a stick step up both the frequency (not too much) and the intensity
of the contact. Be lighthearted and relaxed about it but be *there*. One
time run your finger over her chin, another time, trace her jaw line from
her earlobe to her chin. When you're holding her breathe in the scent of her
hair. If it pleases you, tell her.

Kissing isn't just about locking lips and touching tongues, it's about
closeness of two people experiencing each other with as many of their senses
as possible.

With a bit of luck, if you take things slowly enough, your wife will start
to enjoy having you in her personal space enough to enjoy you kissing her
and she may reciprocate.

Maybe.

It's the best I can think of for the moment, Ted, but if you come back and
do a "yes, but" on me I'm going to be very cross with you so be warned! ;)


Tai

In article <c06p47$140fj8$1@ID-123442.news.uni-berlin.de>, Tai
<tainuiti@yahoo.com> wrote:
With a bit of luck, if you take things slowly enough, your wife will start to enjoy having you in her personal space enough to enjoy you kissing her and she may reciprocate.

Sounds like a plan. Thanks. Am I allowed to put it on a small piece
of paper to carry around with me to remember all the details? (-:

I know I will have to go *very* slowly -- else she'll want to know
what's given rise to the change in behavior and what ulterior motive I
might have... or is that interior motive?

I'll let you know how it goes -- after a week or so.

Ted

Caren wrote: Amy D <amykae@joimail.com> wrote in message news:<4025C6BC.AFBA652D@joimail.com>... Caren wrote: Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:<slrnc2al9n.h75.tony@home.cigardiary.com>... > On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 20:20:26 GMT, Seeker > <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote: > > As part of our weekly "date" at the grocery store my wife and I picked > > up Valentines today. I'd forgotten how painful it is for me to read > > through them, looking for one I can give her. There are many I'd > > *like* to be able to give her -- ones that have sentiments I wish I > > felt, wish I could say honestly, but I just can't. > > > > I want to be in love with her -- but I can't pretend to feel what I > > don't feel, give thanks for things that aren't there, make promises > > that aren't within me. > > Jeez! Why don't you try a variant of Pascal's wager. Treat your wife the > way you would treat her if you felt like you would like to feel about her. > Do that for a month *faithfully* and let us all know what happens. > > If you don't want to try it, stop your whining here. > > -Tony Ted...I do know how you feel. Some of the Valentine messages are ever so mushy and gushy and don't say how I really feel. Dig deep and see if you can find one that says how you feel without all the goosh. Tony, if you are so tired of the 'whining" then your one of your choices is to ignore the messages. Because you are happily in love and have all that you want in life, does not give you the right to be intolerant of those who are not as lucky. I read your most of your posts and a lot of the time you have some words of wisdom, you also have a tone of arrogance and disconnect for those who are not as fortunate as you. Having a great marriage is not simply a reflection of how wonderful you are. Some of it is genes. Some of it is luck. Some of it how you were raised. When you are lucky enough to be in a relationship that is not fraught with confusion, pain , indecision, it does not give you the right to be arrogant. That's my two cents. Ted, I feel the same way that you do on all occassions when it's time to send my parents cards for birthdays, holidays, mother and fathers day. Reading the cards that are mush and gush nauseate me. They make me long for having parents that I could really send the cards to, but I know that I can't. So I usually go for the humorous cards. That usually works. Good luck. If you want, you can send me a mushy email card that you wish you could send your wife. :-) And sometimes, Caren, it is just a matter of **** or get off the pot. Rarely, are there "perfect marriages" by luck, genes, or how you were raised. They take alot of work. I doubt even Urf would say it didn't take any action on his part to have a great marriage. amy Actually Amy, Urf has said that he is truly lucky. Not all great marriages take a lot of work. And some so-so marriages take tons of work. Urf, in the past, has said that he was lazy and left a lot for his wife to do when raising their boys. Yeah, I know about **** or get off the pot, however, everyone has their own time frame. Sometimes Ted's story gets to me, but I do understand that it's not easy. I left a marriage when I was in my early 30's. Today at 50 it is totally harder to think of leaving. Ted is 60. Everyone is different and if venting here helps Ted cope, then let it be. Anyone who is sick of the whining has the choice of ignoring the threads. Sometimes all anyone wants in life is a bit of compassion. Nothing more.

It IS hard to ignore the threads when EVERY thread turns into Ted. :)

amy

Caren wrote: shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) wrote in message news:<c8cb5319.0402080729.4b8907a8@posting.google.com>... caren50@msn.com (Caren) wrote in message news:<3754f0b3.0402072103.6fded4bb@posting.google.com>... Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:<slrnc2al9n.h75.tony@home.cigardiary.com>... > On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 20:20:26 GMT, Seeker > <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote: > > As part of our weekly "date" at the grocery store my wife and I picked > > up Valentines today. I'd forgotten how painful it is for me to read > > through them, looking for one I can give her. There are many I'd > > *like* to be able to give her -- ones that have sentiments I wish I > > felt, wish I could say honestly, but I just can't. > > > > I want to be in love with her -- but I can't pretend to feel what I > > don't feel, give thanks for things that aren't there, make promises > > that aren't within me. > > Jeez! Why don't you try a variant of Pascal's wager. Treat your wife the > way you would treat her if you felt like you would like to feel about her. > Do that for a month *faithfully* and let us all know what happens. > > If you don't want to try it, stop your whining here. > > -Tony Ted...I do know how you feel. Some of the Valentine messages are ever so mushy and gushy and don't say how I really feel. Dig deep and see if you can find one that says how you feel without all the goosh. Well, I got the impression that Ted *loves* all the goosh... just doesn't want or feel like he can lavish it on his wife. And I'm fairly sure that Ted would be absolutely *thrilled* to receive a mushy card from that pharmacist friend of his. I guess that I said it wrong. The mush and gush is hard to deal with when those aren't appropriate for the relationship that you're in. Tony, if you are so tired of the 'whining" then your one of your choices is to ignore the messages. Because you are happily in love and have all that you want in life, does not give you the right to be intolerant of those who are not as lucky. I read your most of your posts and a lot of the time you have some words of wisdom, you also have a tone of arrogance and disconnect for those who are not as fortunate as you. Having a great marriage is not simply a reflection of how wonderful you are. Some of it is genes. Some of it is luck. Some of it how you were raised. When you are lucky enough to be in a relationship that is not fraught with confusion, pain , indecision, it does not give you the right to be arrogant. Actually I think that Ted displays a lot of arrogance, too. He seems to feel as if he's above all the suggestions and advice people on this group have offered over the months and years, that they could never apply to him and his marriage. I guess I see Ted as feeling like a victim, not as if he is above everyone's suggestions. In some ways he is in denial (aren't we all?). I have never perceived him as arrogant. I also think it is quite arrogant to expect his wife to give him the affection he deserves, to change herself into the person he wants to be married to, when he's not willing to do the same for her. The worst thing, IMHO, is Ted's continual attitude of disrespect for his wife. I kind of feel sorry for the both of them. That's my two cents. Ted, I feel the same way that you do on all occassions when it's time to send my parents cards for birthdays, holidays, mother and fathers day. Reading the cards that are mush and gush nauseate me. They make me long for having parents that I could really send the cards to, but I know that I can't. So I usually go for the humorous cards. That usually works. Good luck. If you want, you can send me a mushy email card that you wish you could send your wife. :-) So it's not that you don't like mushy cards, and you actually wouldn't mind receiving one yourself? You just feel uncomfortable giving one to others in your life? YEAH, it's not that I mind the mushy cards, I mind that I have no one to send mushy to! When I read a card for a mother in law for mother's day, I could vomit when I read the mushy ones. Then I have to search high and low for a mother in law that I can barely tolerate. Does that make sense? I have often fantasized about a card company about how you really feel about people :-) Me, I'm not a card person in general. I think the industry is a huge rip-off and I have long avoided buying into it myself. But my sweetie is a big card person and will often send me a mushy card just because. So I've gotten into the habit of giving him cards because I like to see him smile. I already picked out his V-day card a few weeks ago. He's also getting a framed photo of us for his office. jen Before my husband got to live together (not only in the same house, but in the same state) we both supported the card industry. I just loved standing in the card store looking at all of the cards that helped me express my love and devotion to my husband. I think I sent about 4 cards a week. He was always (still is) good with the words on paper if you catch my drift. Now that my husband is no longer driving a truck and has his own office, I gave him a few framed pictures of our daughter for his desk. He asked for one of me. I decided that I would try to draw a picture of his favorite picture of us together last summer. I am now taking a drawing class with my daughter once a week and I realize how much learning I have to do before I can even attempt this picture.

Hmm..that's all cool about drawing a picture....but did you give him a
picture of you for his office like he asked?

amy

"Bill in Co." wrote: Tony Miller wrote: On 7 Feb 2004 21:03:29 -0800, Caren <caren50@msn.com> wrote: Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:<slrnc2al9n.h75.tony@home.cigardiary.com>...> On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 20:20:26 GMT, Seeker> <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote:>> As part of our weekly "date" at the grocery store my wife and I picked>> up Valentines today. I'd forgotten how painful it is for me to read>> through them, looking for one I can give her. There are many I'd>> *like* to be able to give her -- ones that have sentiments I wish I>> felt, wish I could say honestly, but I just can't.>>>> I want to be in love with her -- but I can't pretend to feel what I>> don't feel, give thanks for things that aren't there, make promises>> that aren't within me.>> Jeez! Why don't you try a variant of Pascal's wager. Treat your wife the> way you would treat her if you felt like you would like to feel about her.> Do that for a month *faithfully* and let us all know what happens.>> If you don't want to try it, stop your whining here.>> -Tony Ted...I do know how you feel. Some of the Valentine messages are ever so mushy and gushy and don't say how I really feel. Dig deep and see if you can find one that says how you feel without all the goosh. Tony, if you are so tired of the 'whining" then your one of your choices is to ignore the messages. Because you are happily in love and have all that you want in life, does not give you the right to be intolerant of those who are not as lucky. I read your most of your posts and a lot of the time you have some words of wisdom, you also have a tone of arrogance and disconnect for those who are not as fortunate as you. Caren, support takes different forms. Sometimes a kick in the *** is required. My problem is not with Ted's "fortune", it's with Ted's continuing complaints without wanting to do what is required to make it better or leave. His wife is not cooperating. He refuses to divorce her. He prefers to stay in the situation he's in, and as such is totally responsible for his plight. Having a great marriage is not simply a reflection of how wonderful you are. Some of it is genes. Some of it is luck. Some of it how you were raised. When you are lucky enough to be in a relationship that is not fraught with confusion, pain , indecision, it does not give you the right to be arrogant. Part of it is discernment, it's not genes, it's not luck. It's looking logically at your potential spouse and deciding if this is the person for you. It takes two to make a marriage. It takes two to keep a marriage strong. It takes two to save a marriage. If only one wants to save a marriage, it's unfortunate, but it can't be done. The remaining person has two choices. 1) Deal with it. 2) Leave. Actually there are 3 choices. Add "not deal with it" to the list above. That is another choice.

LOL--yep..... :)

I find it alarming <amusing?> that Ted mentioned his wife says things
will never get better as long as they are in "therapy"....tends me to
lean a little more on his wife's side. It WOULD be incredibly
frustrating to KNOW what is wrong and being forced to go to therapy as
the "good wife" <bad wife?> while your husband tries to figure out how
to make YOU change...... :)

amy

"Seeker" <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message
news:070220041420247187%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com... As part of our weekly "date" at the grocery store my wife and I picked up Valentines today. I'd forgotten how painful it is for me to read through them, looking for one I can give her. There are many I'd *like* to be able to give her -- ones that have sentiments I wish I felt, wish I could say honestly, but I just can't. I want to be in love with her -- but I can't pretend to feel what I don't feel, give thanks for things that aren't there, make promises that aren't within me.

So would it be a lie if you said something along the lines of "I love you"
to her?

Here is the one I got my hubby:
"You're in my thoughts so frequently Throughout the passing days,
Because I like recalling
All your loving, caring ways...
And every recollection
Makes me smile and wish I knew
A brand-new way to let you know
How much I think of you...
But if you'll read between the lines,
You'll know, at least in part
The many loving thoughts of you
I keep within my heart!"

It doesn't actually say "I love you" or "You make me so happy" but its kind
of nice don't you think?

Amy

"Amy D" <amykae@joimail.com> wrote in I find it alarming <amusing?> that Ted mentioned his wife says things will never get better as long as they are in "therapy"....tends me to lean a little more on his wife's side. It WOULD be incredibly frustrating to KNOW what is wrong and being forced to go to therapy as the "good wife" <bad wife?> while your husband tries to figure out how to make YOU change...... :)

Good point! How on earth would a marriage get better when one partner is
constantly being reminded how much of a failure they are?

Amy amy

Amy D <amykae@joimail.com> wrote in message news:<402714DF.FBDD38B8@joimail.com>... Caren wrote: shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) wrote in message news:<c8cb5319.0402080729.4b8907a8@posting.google.com>... caren50@msn.com (Caren) wrote in message news:<3754f0b3.0402072103.6fded4bb@posting.google.com>... > Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:<slrnc2al9n.h75.tony@home.cigardiary.com>... > > On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 20:20:26 GMT, Seeker > > <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote: > > > As part of our weekly "date" at the grocery store my wife and I picked > > > up Valentines today. I'd forgotten how painful it is for me to read > > > through them, looking for one I can give her. There are many I'd > > > *like* to be able to give her -- ones that have sentiments I wish I > > > felt, wish I could say honestly, but I just can't. > > > > > > I want to be in love with her -- but I can't pretend to feel what I > > > don't feel, give thanks for things that aren't there, make promises > > > that aren't within me. > > > > Jeez! Why don't you try a variant of Pascal's wager. Treat your wife the > > way you would treat her if you felt like you would like to feel about her. > > Do that for a month *faithfully* and let us all know what happens. > > > > If you don't want to try it, stop your whining here. > > > > -Tony > > > Ted...I do know how you feel. Some of the Valentine messages are ever > so mushy and gushy and don't say how I really feel. Dig deep and see > if you can find one that says how you feel without all the goosh. Well, I got the impression that Ted *loves* all the goosh... just doesn't want or feel like he can lavish it on his wife. And I'm fairly sure that Ted would be absolutely *thrilled* to receive a mushy card from that pharmacist friend of his. I guess that I said it wrong. The mush and gush is hard to deal with when those aren't appropriate for the relationship that you're in. > Tony, if you are so tired of the 'whining" then your one of your > choices is to ignore the messages. Because you are happily in love > and have all that you want in life, does not give you the right to be > intolerant of those who are not as lucky. I read your most of your > posts and a lot of the time you have some words of wisdom, you also > have a tone of arrogance and disconnect for those who are not as > fortunate as you. > > Having a great marriage is not simply a reflection of how wonderful > you are. Some of it is genes. Some of it is luck. Some of it how > you were raised. When you are lucky enough to be in a relationship > that is not fraught with confusion, pain , indecision, it does not > give you the right to be arrogant. Actually I think that Ted displays a lot of arrogance, too. He seems to feel as if he's above all the suggestions and advice people on this group have offered over the months and years, that they could never apply to him and his marriage. I guess I see Ted as feeling like a victim, not as if he is above everyone's suggestions. In some ways he is in denial (aren't we all?). I have never perceived him as arrogant. I also think it is quite arrogant to expect his wife to give him the affection he deserves, to change herself into the person he wants to be married to, when he's not willing to do the same for her. The worst thing, IMHO, is Ted's continual attitude of disrespect for his wife. I kind of feel sorry for the both of them. > That's my two cents. Ted, I feel the same way that you do on all > occassions when it's time to send my parents cards for birthdays, > holidays, mother and fathers day. Reading the cards that are mush and > gush nauseate me. They make me long for having parents that I could > really send the cards to, but I know that I can't. So I usually go > for the humorous cards. That usually works. Good luck. > > If you want, you can send me a mushy email card that you wish you > could send your wife. :-) So it's not that you don't like mushy cards, and you actually wouldn't mind receiving one yourself? You just feel uncomfortable giving one to others in your life? YEAH, it's not that I mind the mushy cards, I mind that I have no one to send mushy to! When I read a card for a mother in law for mother's day, I could vomit when I read the mushy ones. Then I have to search high and low for a mother in law that I can barely tolerate. Does that make sense? I have often fantasized about a card company about how you really feel about people :-) Me, I'm not a card person in general. I think the industry is a huge rip-off and I have long avoided buying into it myself. But my sweetie is a big card person and will often send me a mushy card just because. So I've gotten into the habit of giving him cards because I like to see him smile. I already picked out his V-day card a few weeks ago. He's also getting a framed photo of us for his office. jen Before my husband got to live together (not only in the same house, but in the same state) we both supported the card industry. I just loved standing in the card store looking at all of the cards that helped me express my love and devotion to my husband. I think I sent about 4 cards a week. He was always (still is) good with the words on paper if you catch my drift. Now that my husband is no longer driving a truck and has his own office, I gave him a few framed pictures of our daughter for his desk. He asked for one of me. I decided that I would try to draw a picture of his favorite picture of us together last summer. I am now taking a drawing class with my daughter once a week and I realize how much learning I have to do before I can even attempt this picture. Hmm..that's all cool about drawing a picture....but did you give him a picture of you for his office like he asked? amy


Damn Amy, you sound like my mother!

"Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<c06p47$140fj8$1@ID-123442.news.uni-berlin.de>... Seeker wrote: I'm starting to get some inklings of what's going on. Let me ponder them awhile. (Part of it is I took a mental look at all of my significant role models -- at least three -- for how a husband behaves towards a wife and what I saw was not pretty.)

Sadly Ted, many of us have not had any postive role models for how to
love someone. I suppose it's our job to figure it out! Ted, in view of what you've written above and with respect to your wish to be kissed properly before you turn 60 I offer the following as a plan of action. When you wake up in the morning, move towards your wife, find and gently press her hand. Kiss her palm or knuckles from time to time.

Awesome. I'd love that! Before you part from her to go to work, smile, look into her eyes, lightly touch her cheek with your hand. Some mornings tell her you'll be thinking about her. Not every morning. If she's still asleep or dozing press your cheek to hers, kiss her brow and murmur goodbye.

I love when my husband touches my cheek...something about that! I
also love it when he touches my hair. As crazy as it sounds, I love
it when he undoes my braid. When you come home, let a smile light up your face when you see her. Tell her you thought of her today (not the same day you told her you would be thinking of her), move towards her and clasp her gently (not tightly) in your arms briefly, touch your lips to her cheek and if you can, sigh happily, or just relax as if you were coming home to her arms. If she has her arms full or is in the middle of something, wait a little and then gently draw her attention to you. Try to have at least one tidbit of news, thoughts, funny stories to tell her. Make it about you wanting to touch her without wanting anything back from her initially. Keep it casual, loose, brief and pleasant. Enjoy the contact and show that you enjoy it. Look for an opportunity during the evening when you're both smiling, perhaps while sharing a joke, and give her a spontaneous hug and a quick kiss on the mouth. Take it slowly but over a week or two if your wife doesn't start to beat you off with a stick step up both the frequency (not too much) and the intensity of the contact. Be lighthearted and relaxed about it but be *there*. One time run your finger over her chin, another time, trace her jaw line from her earlobe to her chin. When you're holding her breathe in the scent of her hair. If it pleases you, tell her. Kissing isn't just about locking lips and touching tongues, it's about closeness of two people experiencing each other with as many of their senses as possible. With a bit of luck, if you take things slowly enough, your wife will start to enjoy having you in her personal space enough to enjoy you kissing her and she may reciprocate. Maybe. It's the best I can think of for the moment, Ted, but if you come back and do a "yes, but" on me I'm going to be very cross with you so be warned! ;) Tai


Tai,
You should be a writer! I love what you wrote and I'd be shocked if
it didn't help Ted. I'm going to print it out for my husband to read
too.

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0402080806.6de63e4b@posting.google.c om... Amy D <amykae@joimail.com> wrote in message
news:<4025C6BC.AFBA652D@joimail.com>... Caren wrote: Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message
news:<slrnc2al9n.h75.tony@home.cigardiary.com>... > On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 20:20:26 GMT, Seeker > <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote: > > As part of our weekly "date" at the grocery store my wife and I
picked > > up Valentines today. I'd forgotten how painful it is for me to
read > > through them, looking for one I can give her. There are many
I'd > > *like* to be able to give her -- ones that have sentiments I wish
I > > felt, wish I could say honestly, but I just can't. > > > > I want to be in love with her -- but I can't pretend to feel what
I > > don't feel, give thanks for things that aren't there, make
promises > > that aren't within me. > > Jeez! Why don't you try a variant of Pascal's wager. Treat your
wife the > way you would treat her if you felt like you would like to feel
about her. > Do that for a month *faithfully* and let us all know what happens. > > If you don't want to try it, stop your whining here. > > -Tony Ted...I do know how you feel. Some of the Valentine messages are ever so mushy and gushy and don't say how I really feel. Dig deep and see if you can find one that says how you feel without all the goosh. Tony, if you are so tired of the 'whining" then your one of your choices is to ignore the messages. Because you are happily in love and have all that you want in life, does not give you the right to be intolerant of those who are not as lucky. I read your most of your posts and a lot of the time you have some words of wisdom, you also have a tone of arrogance and disconnect for those who are not as fortunate as you. Having a great marriage is not simply a reflection of how wonderful you are. Some of it is genes. Some of it is luck. Some of it how you were raised. When you are lucky enough to be in a relationship that is not fraught with confusion, pain , indecision, it does not give you the right to be arrogant. That's my two cents. Ted, I feel the same way that you do on all occassions when it's time to send my parents cards for birthdays, holidays, mother and fathers day. Reading the cards that are mush and gush nauseate me. They make me long for having parents that I could really send the cards to, but I know that I can't. So I usually go for the humorous cards. That usually works. Good luck. If you want, you can send me a mushy email card that you wish you could send your wife. :-) And sometimes, Caren, it is just a matter of **** or get off the pot. Rarely, are there "perfect marriages" by luck, genes, or how you were raised. They take alot of work. I doubt even Urf would say it didn't take any action on his part to have a great marriage. amy Actually Amy, Urf has said that he is truly lucky. Not all great marriages take a lot of work. And some so-so marriages take tons of work. Urf, in the past, has said that he was lazy and left a lot for his wife to do when raising their boys.

You remembered!
Yeah, I know about **** or get off the pot, however, everyone has their own time frame. Sometimes Ted's story gets to me, but I do understand that it's not easy. I left a marriage when I was in my early 30's. Today at 50 it is totally harder to think of leaving. Ted is 60. Everyone is different and if venting here helps Ted cope, then let it be. Anyone who is sick of the whining has the choice of ignoring the threads. Sometimes all anyone wants in life is a bit of compassion. Nothing more.

"Seeker" <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message
news:070220041420247187%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com... As part of our weekly "date" at the grocery store my wife and I picked up Valentines today. I'd forgotten how painful it is for me to read through them, looking for one I can give her. There are many I'd *like* to be able to give her -- ones that have sentiments I wish I felt, wish I could say honestly, but I just can't. I want to be in love with her -- but I can't pretend to feel what I don't feel, give thanks for things that aren't there, make promises that aren't within me. Sigh. Ted

Neither Estelle or I put much thought into Valentine's Day. Afterall,
each day "should" be Valentine's Day.

When I want to say something special to Estelle, I usually write her
a poem or read her something that has meaning to me. She
always appreciates the personal effort to say what is closest to
my heart in a way that she can best grok.

On her last birthday I wrote a poem about how I help her
color the gray in her hair (I hope she doesn't read this).
It has become a ritual for us.

Ted, your relationship is pitiable in some respects.

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0402081345.5bebeb62@posting.google.c om... shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) wrote in message
news:<c8cb5319.0402080729.4b8907a8@posting.google.com>... caren50@msn.com (Caren) wrote in message
news:<3754f0b3.0402072103.6fded4bb@posting.google.com>...

Major Snip>
Before my husband got to live together (not only in the same house, but in the same state) we both supported the card industry. I just loved standing in the card store looking at all of the cards that helped me express my love and devotion to my husband. I think I sent about 4 cards a week. He was always (still is) good with the words on paper if you catch my drift. Now that my husband is no longer driving a truck and has his own office, I gave him a few framed pictures of our daughter for his desk. He asked for one of me. I decided that I would try to draw a picture of his favorite picture of us together last summer. I am now taking a drawing class with my daughter once a week and I realize how much learning I have to do before I can even attempt this picture.

This really sounds like Estelle. She can spend hours in a card store.
She never seems to get tired of it. What impresses me though
is when the recipients of her time spent in stores express how much
they liked the cards. Some even say they look forward to her cards.
To take it a step farther, she has made cards into a hobby by making
her own line of cards. She produces hand made cards comprised of pressed
flowers and small items (like bark or beads) glued onto card
stock as miniature pieces of art.

"Seeker" <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message
news:080220041700508769%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com... In article <c8cb5319.0402080729.4b8907a8@posting.google.com>, shinypenny <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote: The worst thing, IMHO, is Ted's continual attitude of disrespect for his wife. Jen -- thanks for saying this at least one more time. I'm pretty sure you've said it before, as have either Tai or Sheila or both and probably others as well. It took one more time for it to sink in. I now admit it to myself and started to look at the reasons why. (I don't think you change behavior before having some idea of where it comes from -- not that that necesarily gives you many clues as to what to do, but I think it's important to understand at least somewhat why things are the way they are.) I'm starting to get some inklings of what's going on. Let me ponder them awhile. (Part of it is I took a mental look at all of my significant role models -- at least three -- for how a husband behaves towards a wife and what I saw was not pretty.) Ted

A door opens just a crack. A small light shines on the
inner workings of the mind.

"Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message
news:slrnc2d6sr.u9j.tony@home.cigardiary.com... On 7 Feb 2004 21:03:29 -0800, Caren <caren50@msn.com> wrote: Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message
news:<slrnc2al9n.h75.tony@home.cigardiary.com>... On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 20:20:26 GMT, Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote: > As part of our weekly "date" at the grocery store my wife and I
picked > up Valentines today. I'd forgotten how painful it is for me to read > through them, looking for one I can give her. There are many I'd > *like* to be able to give her -- ones that have sentiments I wish I > felt, wish I could say honestly, but I just can't. > > I want to be in love with her -- but I can't pretend to feel what I > don't feel, give thanks for things that aren't there, make promises > that aren't within me. Jeez! Why don't you try a variant of Pascal's wager. Treat your wife
the way you would treat her if you felt like you would like to feel about
her. Do that for a month *faithfully* and let us all know what happens. If you don't want to try it, stop your whining here. -Tony Ted...I do know how you feel. Some of the Valentine messages are ever so mushy and gushy and don't say how I really feel. Dig deep and see if you can find one that says how you feel without all the goosh. Tony, if you are so tired of the 'whining" then your one of your choices is to ignore the messages. Because you are happily in love and have all that you want in life, does not give you the right to be intolerant of those who are not as lucky. I read your most of your posts and a lot of the time you have some words of wisdom, you also have a tone of arrogance and disconnect for those who are not as fortunate as you. Caren, support takes different forms. Sometimes a kick in the *** is required. My problem is not with Ted's "fortune", it's with Ted's continuing complaints without wanting to do what is required to make it better or leave. His wife is not cooperating. He refuses to divorce her. He prefers to stay in the situation he's in, and as such is totally responsible for his plight. Having a great marriage is not simply a reflection of how wonderful you are. Some of it is genes. Some of it is luck. Some of it how you were raised. When you are lucky enough to be in a relationship that is not fraught with confusion, pain , indecision, it does not give you the right to be arrogant. Part of it is discernment, it's not genes, it's not luck. It's looking logically at your potential spouse and deciding if this is the person for you. It takes two to make a marriage. It takes two to keep a marriage strong. It takes two to save a marriage. If only one wants to save a marriage, it's unfortunate, but it can't be done. The remaining person has two choices. 1) Deal with it. 2) Leave. That's my two cents. Ted, I feel the same way that you do on all occassions when it's time to send my parents cards for birthdays, holidays, mother and fathers day. Reading the cards that are mush and gush nauseate me. They make me long for having parents that I could really send the cards to, but I know that I can't. So I usually go for the humorous cards. That usually works. Good luck. If you want, you can send me a mushy email card that you wish you could send your wife. :-) :) -Tony

Your lack of patience with Ted clearly expresses why a trained therapist
gets paid as much as they do. It's not easy work.

On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 15:25:16 GMT, urf
<urf@nospam.com> wrote:
Your lack of patience with Ted clearly expresses why a trained therapist gets paid as much as they do. It's not easy work.

If I were getting paid $50-$150/hr, I'd encourage Ted to talk to me as
much as he wanted. And I wouldn't be shooting for rapid progress. He'd
be taking it slow (a couple years or so).

So true, I'd make a lousy therapist :)

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

"Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:7XEVb.48561$Wa.11652@news-server.bigpond.net.au... Here is the one I got my hubby: "You're in my thoughts so frequently Throughout the passing days, Because I like recalling All your loving, caring ways... And every recollection Makes me smile and wish I knew A brand-new way to let you know How much I think of you... But if you'll read between the lines, You'll know, at least in part The many loving thoughts of you I keep within my heart!" It doesn't actually say "I love you" or "You make me so happy" but its
kind of nice don't you think?

And it's the sort of card I wish I could send but can't -- because it's not
true.
I will agree she's in my thoughts frequently, but not because of her
"loving, caring" ways. Now, *she* may think they are loving and caring, but
I don't!

Ted

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0402072103.6fded4bb@posting.google.c om... If you want, you can send me a mushy email card that you wish you could send your wife. :-)

That probably would not be a good idea... (-:

Ted

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:%ANVb.10744$M8.7915@nwrdny02.gnilink.net... A door opens just a crack. A small light shines on the inner workings of the mind.
This one was more than a crack.
My father looked down on my mother (or so that's how I think I perceived
it.) It usually wasn't blatant, but just enough it upset me. Our family
was very close to another family (almost like having two sets of parents)
and the husband there was also prone to bursts of being upset with his wife,
things I perceived as, I guess, disrespectful. I didn't like that either.
And then my wife's brother-in-law was, I felt, quite demeaning of his wife,
often using sarcasm in talking to her about things she did. I'm sure I
internalized that I didn't want to behave in any of those ways -- but not
knowing any other way to behave the best I could do was simply not interact.
On the other hand, since those were the only models I had -- it was, and is,
all too easy for those ways of thinking and behaving to come out. And
subtly it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy: because I at least
unconsciously treated my wife as second-class, without respect, she came to
view herself that way too and to act in ways that only confirmed what I
thought about her. Or so it seems.

Ted

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0402081345.5bebeb62@posting.google.c om... I guess that I said it wrong. The mush and gush is hard to deal with when those aren't appropriate for the relationship that you're in.

*And* when you wish it were -- and can think of others for whom it would be
appropriate. (At least this year the thought of sending one to "the
pharmacist" didn't seriously enter my mind. Small steps.)

Ted

"Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message
news:slrnc2d6sr.u9j.tony@home.cigardiary.com...
Part of it is discernment

And what do you know of discernment?

"What God hath put together..."
Are *you* certain that God intended for you to marry the person you did?

Ted

"Amy D" <amykae@joimail.com> wrote in message
news:40271686.6F052411@joimail.com... I find it alarming <amusing?> that Ted mentioned his wife says things will never get better as long as they are in "therapy"....tends me to lean a little more on his wife's side. It WOULD be incredibly frustrating to KNOW what is wrong and being forced to go to therapy as the "good wife" <bad wife?> while your husband tries to figure out how to make YOU change...... :)

She's not "forced" -- she chooses to go because she's afraid of what will go
on between me and the therapist if she's not there. Most of the time we've
just been surfacing differences -- without any finger pointing as to who
"has to change." The few places where any fingers have been pointed,
mostly they've been pointed at me. (I'm the one who has the communication
problem, remember.)

Ted

"Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:chJVb.48872$Wa.24946@news-server.bigpond.net.au... Good point! How on earth would a marriage get better when one partner is constantly being reminded how much of a failure they are?
Why do you think that's what's going on?

Ted

"Amy D" <amykae@joimail.com> wrote in message
news:4025C517.FDB85F44@joimail.com... Ted, if she doesn't "feel love" how on earth do you expect to get beyond where you are?

She felt loved just fine, with me doing whatever I was doing, until I asked
her to go to marriage counselling. I don't have an answer to your
question, for I know that stopping counselling isn't the answer.

Ted

Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote:
As part of our weekly "date" at the grocery store my wife and I picked up Valentines today. I'd forgotten how painful it is for me to read through them, looking for one I can give her. There are many I'd *like* to be able to give her -- ones that have sentiments I wish I felt, wish I could say honestly, but I just can't.

Make her a card, with a message that comes from the heart.

On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 11:18:58 -0600, Seeker
<tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote: "Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:slrnc2d6sr.u9j.tony@home.cigardiary.com... Part of it is discernment And what do you know of discernment?

I know that it's a process you enter into prayerfully if you are a
prayerful type, and logically if you're not.
"What God hath put together..." Are *you* certain that God intended for you to marry the person you did?

Yes.

I believe your big problem is that you aren't sure that this is the person
God intended you to marry. (Like you could do something contrary to God).
As such you probably obsess on what your life might have been like with
someone else, rather than cleaving to the one "God joined you with".

Read the first two lines of my .sig for comprehension. (Then possibly
think about the other two).

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:<wDNVb.10745$M8.3028@nwrdny02.gnilink.net>... "Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:slrnc2d6sr.u9j.tony@home.cigardiary.com... On 7 Feb 2004 21:03:29 -0800, Caren <caren50@msn.com> wrote: Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:<slrnc2al9n.h75.tony@home.cigardiary.com>...> On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 20:20:26 GMT, Seeker> <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote:> > As part of our weekly "date" at the grocery store my wife and I picked> > up Valentines today. I'd forgotten how painful it is for me to read> > through them, looking for one I can give her. There are many I'd> > *like* to be able to give her -- ones that have sentiments I wish I> > felt, wish I could say honestly, but I just can't.> >> > I want to be in love with her -- but I can't pretend to feel what I> > don't feel, give thanks for things that aren't there, make promises> > that aren't within me.>> Jeez! Why don't you try a variant of Pascal's wager. Treat your wife the> way you would treat her if you felt like you would like to feel about her.> Do that for a month *faithfully* and let us all know what happens.>> If you don't want to try it, stop your whining here.>> -Tony Ted...I do know how you feel. Some of the Valentine messages are ever so mushy and gushy and don't say how I really feel. Dig deep and see if you can find one that says how you feel without all the goosh. Tony, if you are so tired of the 'whining" then your one of your choices is to ignore the messages. Because you are happily in love and have all that you want in life, does not give you the right to be intolerant of those who are not as lucky. I read your most of your posts and a lot of the time you have some words of wisdom, you also have a tone of arrogance and disconnect for those who are not as fortunate as you. Caren, support takes different forms. Sometimes a kick in the *** is required. My problem is not with Ted's "fortune", it's with Ted's continuing complaints without wanting to do what is required to make it better or leave. His wife is not cooperating. He refuses to divorce her. He prefers to stay in the situation he's in, and as such is totally responsible for his plight. Having a great marriage is not simply a reflection of how wonderful you are. Some of it is genes. Some of it is luck. Some of it how you were raised. When you are lucky enough to be in a relationship that is not fraught with confusion, pain , indecision, it does not give you the right to be arrogant. Part of it is discernment, it's not genes, it's not luck. It's looking logically at your potential spouse and deciding if this is the person for you. It takes two to make a marriage. It takes two to keep a marriage strong. It takes two to save a marriage. If only one wants to save a marriage, it's unfortunate, but it can't be done. The remaining person has two choices. 1) Deal with it. 2) Leave. That's my two cents. Ted, I feel the same way that you do on all occassions when it's time to send my parents cards for birthdays, holidays, mother and fathers day. Reading the cards that are mush and gush nauseate me. They make me long for having parents that I could really send the cards to, but I know that I can't. So I usually go for the humorous cards. That usually works. Good luck. If you want, you can send me a mushy email card that you wish you could send your wife. :-) :) -Tony Your lack of patience with Ted clearly expresses why a trained therapist gets paid as much as they do. It's not easy work.


So how come I don't get paid the big bucks? ;-)
The difference between social work and therapy. when I was in grad
school, I knew then and there that I'd never make it as a therapist in
a shmancy office working with couples who had all the money in the
world. I had no desire to work with Pierre and Brandy and sit and
listen to how the manicurist screwed up and how her house cleaner was
a no show minutes before the dinner for 20. I immediately started
working with children, my passion. And no fru fru office either :-)

Caren wrote: Amy D <amykae@joimail.com> wrote in message news:<402714DF.FBDD38B8@joimail.com>... Caren wrote: shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) wrote in message news:<c8cb5319.0402080729.4b8907a8@posting.google.com>... > caren50@msn.com (Caren) wrote in message news:<3754f0b3.0402072103.6fded4bb@posting.google.com>... > > Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:<slrnc2al9n.h75.tony@home.cigardiary.com>... > > > On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 20:20:26 GMT, Seeker > > > <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote: > > > > As part of our weekly "date" at the grocery store my wife and I picked > > > > up Valentines today. I'd forgotten how painful it is for me to read > > > > through them, looking for one I can give her. There are many I'd > > > > *like* to be able to give her -- ones that have sentiments I wish I > > > > felt, wish I could say honestly, but I just can't. > > > > > > > > I want to be in love with her -- but I can't pretend to feel what I > > > > don't feel, give thanks for things that aren't there, make promises > > > > that aren't within me. > > > > > > Jeez! Why don't you try a variant of Pascal's wager. Treat your wife the > > > way you would treat her if you felt like you would like to feel about her. > > > Do that for a month *faithfully* and let us all know what happens. > > > > > > If you don't want to try it, stop your whining here. > > > > > > -Tony > > > > > > Ted...I do know how you feel. Some of the Valentine messages are ever > > so mushy and gushy and don't say how I really feel. Dig deep and see > > if you can find one that says how you feel without all the goosh. > > Well, I got the impression that Ted *loves* all the goosh... just > doesn't want or feel like he can lavish it on his wife. And I'm fairly > sure that Ted would be absolutely *thrilled* to receive a mushy card > from that pharmacist friend of his. I guess that I said it wrong. The mush and gush is hard to deal with when those aren't appropriate for the relationship that you're in. > > > Tony, if you are so tired of the 'whining" then your one of your > > choices is to ignore the messages. Because you are happily in love > > and have all that you want in life, does not give you the right to be > > intolerant of those who are not as lucky. I read your most of your > > posts and a lot of the time you have some words of wisdom, you also > > have a tone of arrogance and disconnect for those who are not as > > fortunate as you. > > > > Having a great marriage is not simply a reflection of how wonderful > > you are. Some of it is genes. Some of it is luck. Some of it how > > you were raised. When you are lucky enough to be in a relationship > > that is not fraught with confusion, pain , indecision, it does not > > give you the right to be arrogant. > > Actually I think that Ted displays a lot of arrogance, too. He seems > to feel as if he's above all the suggestions and advice people on this > group have offered over the months and years, that they could never > apply to him and his marriage. I guess I see Ted as feeling like a victim, not as if he is above everyone's suggestions. In some ways he is in denial (aren't we all?). I have never perceived him as arrogant. > > I also think it is quite arrogant to expect his wife to give him the > affection he deserves, to change herself into the person he wants to > be married to, when he's not willing to do the same for her. > > The worst thing, IMHO, is Ted's continual attitude of disrespect for > his wife. I kind of feel sorry for the both of them. > > > That's my two cents. Ted, I feel the same way that you do on all > > occassions when it's time to send my parents cards for birthdays, > > holidays, mother and fathers day. Reading the cards that are mush and > > gush nauseate me. They make me long for having parents that I could > > really send the cards to, but I know that I can't. So I usually go > > for the humorous cards. That usually works. Good luck. > > > > If you want, you can send me a mushy email card that you wish you > > could send your wife. :-) > > So it's not that you don't like mushy cards, and you actually wouldn't > mind receiving one yourself? You just feel uncomfortable giving one to > others in your life? YEAH, it's not that I mind the mushy cards, I mind that I have no one to send mushy to! When I read a card for a mother in law for mother's day, I could vomit when I read the mushy ones. Then I have to search high and low for a mother in law that I can barely tolerate. Does that make sense? I have often fantasized about a card company about how you really feel about people :-) > > Me, I'm not a card person in general. I think the industry is a huge > rip-off and I have long avoided buying into it myself. But my sweetie > is a big card person and will often send me a mushy card just because. > So I've gotten into the habit of giving him cards because I like to > see him smile. I already picked out his V-day card a few weeks ago. > He's also getting a framed photo of us for his office. > > jen Before my husband got to live together (not only in the same house, but in the same state) we both supported the card industry. I just loved standing in the card store looking at all of the cards that helped me express my love and devotion to my husband. I think I sent about 4 cards a week. He was always (still is) good with the words on paper if you catch my drift. Now that my husband is no longer driving a truck and has his own office, I gave him a few framed pictures of our daughter for his desk. He asked for one of me. I decided that I would try to draw a picture of his favorite picture of us together last summer. I am now taking a drawing class with my daughter once a week and I realize how much learning I have to do before I can even attempt this picture. Hmm..that's all cool about drawing a picture....but did you give him a picture of you for his office like he asked? amy Damn Amy, you sound like my mother!

LMAO! :)

amy

"Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message
news:slrnc2fjse.2nr.tony@home.cigardiary.com... On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 11:18:58 -0600, Seeker <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote: "Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:slrnc2d6sr.u9j.tony@home.cigardiary.com... Part of it is discernment And what do you know of discernment? I know that it's a process you enter into prayerfully if you are a prayerful type, and logically if you're not.
Could you describe the process in a little more detail? How do *you*
recognize when God is trying to tell you something -- rather than your own
ego or the scrambled voices of society?
"What God hath put together..." Are *you* certain that God intended for you to marry the person you did? Yes.
Why?
I believe your big problem is that you aren't sure that this is the person God intended you to marry. (Like you could do something contrary to God). As such you probably obsess on what your life might have been like with someone else, rather than cleaving to the one "God joined you with".
Oh, one can always do things contrary to God -- not to be flip about it, but
that's what free will is about. But, not that is not my problem -- I am
absolutely
certain that my wife and I were intended to be married. It's what that
means and what I am supposed to do now where things get cloudy. While the
discernment about it isn't as clear as I'd like, I also do believe it is
God's intention that we be in marriage counselling.
Read the first two lines of my .sig for comprehension. (Then possibly think about the other two).
For something like five years I've tried to do that -- perhaps I didn't know
how. Whatever the case, whether I got the wrong fertilizer, or didn't
properly water after fertilizing, or didn't know how to apply it, or it all
got washed off -- it doesn't seem to have helped. That's why we are where
we are.

Ted
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's
time to fertilize your lawn!"

"Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<c06p47$140fj8$1@ID-123442.news.uni-berlin.de>...

<snipped Tai's great advice> Tai

Maybe I'm just a modern impatient American, but I'm fond of ideas like
this that take a very direct approach to solving problems. I know the
issues in Ted's marriage are far more complex than the fact that they
don't kiss, but the upsides of doing this far outweigh the risks from
where I'm standing.

A story from those of you presently dealing with a lot of snow: One
day when I was a kid I was faced with a task of shoveling a lot of
snow off an ice rink that we tried to maintain in front of my parents
house.

One older brother suggested I put on my skates and shovel in more or
less a random fashion while I skated around inside the borders of the
rink. His theory was that it would be more fun than trying to clear
off the snow one section at a time in a very disciplined way. As long
as I kept shoveling, I would have the rink completely cleared in the
same amount of time.

Being young that sounded like a good plan to me, but after 30 minutes
or so of skating and shoveling I was tired and I didn't really have
much to show for it. I was ready to quit, but I talked myself into
shoveling just 1/8th of the rink. I felt so good about finishing that,
that I decided to do another quarter. Well, I ended up doing the whole
thing.

You can't underestimate the importance of being able to see progress.
Even if the approach takes longer in the end, I think it's important
to see periodic results.

I suppose there are valid reasons why a therapist hasn't tackeled the
kissing and related things in a more direct way, -there are underlying
problems that have to be understood, but it seems to me that Ted's
wife is skeptical of the process, and Ted is frustrated too. A year
and 1/2 of therapy has apparently changed very little in their day to
day interactions.

Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message news:<080220042245161730%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com>... In article <c06p47$140fj8$1@ID-123442.news.uni-berlin.de>, Tai <tainuiti@yahoo.com> wrote: With a bit of luck, if you take things slowly enough, your wife will start to enjoy having you in her personal space enough to enjoy you kissing her and she may reciprocate. Sounds like a plan. Thanks. Am I allowed to put it on a small piece of paper to carry around with me to remember all the details? (-: I know I will have to go *very* slowly -- else she'll want to know what's given rise to the change in behavior and what ulterior motive I might have... or is that interior motive?

Ted, if your ulterior motive is a better marriage, then what's there
to be worried about?

She might get suspcicious, but if she asks, tell her that you want
more affection in your marriage, that you've come to the realization
that you yourself haven't been all that good at showing your affection
and that you'd like to to change that.
I'll let you know how it goes -- after a week or so. Ted

"Jingle Bells" <jinglebells5555@yahoo.com> wrote in message > She might get suspcicious, but if she asks, tell her that you want more affection in your marriage, that you've come to the realization that you yourself haven't been all that good at showing your affection and that you'd like to to change that.

And it would even be an honest response...
Thanks for coming up with that.

Ted

On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 13:17:57 -0600, Seeker
<tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote: "Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:slrnc2fjse.2nr.tony@home.cigardiary.com... On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 11:18:58 -0600, Seeker <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote: "Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:slrnc2d6sr.u9j.tony@home.cigardiary.com...>> Part of it is discernment And what do you know of discernment? I know that it's a process you enter into prayerfully if you are a prayerful type, and logically if you're not. Could you describe the process in a little more detail? How do *you* recognize when God is trying to tell you something -- rather than your own ego or the scrambled voices of society? "What God hath put together..." Are *you* certain that God intended for you to marry the person you did? Yes. Why?

Because God wouldn't join me to someone He didn't intend me to marry. Is
this a trick question?
I believe your big problem is that you aren't sure that this is the person God intended you to marry. (Like you could do something contrary to God). As such you probably obsess on what your life might have been like with someone else, rather than cleaving to the one "God joined you with". Oh, one can always do things contrary to God -- not to be flip about it, but that's what free will is about. But, not that is not my problem -- I am absolutely certain that my wife and I were intended to be married. It's what that means and what I am supposed to do now where things get cloudy. While the discernment about it isn't as clear as I'd like, I also do believe it is God's intention that we be in marriage counselling. Read the first two lines of my .sig for comprehension. (Then possibly think about the other two). For something like five years I've tried to do that -- perhaps I didn't know how. Whatever the case, whether I got the wrong fertilizer, or didn't properly water after fertilizing, or didn't know how to apply it, or it all got washed off -- it doesn't seem to have helped. That's why we are where we are.

Have you asked your wife to go on a Marriage Encounter weekend with you?
A weekend with just the two of you to explore your marriage? You two seem
like you could benefit from Marriage Encounter (your marriage doesn't seem
bad enough, to me anyway, that you would need Retrouville). I could give
you both websites and you could make the decision, if you have any
interest.

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

"Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message
news:slrnc2fsa8.34k.tony@home.cigardiary.com... Because God wouldn't join me to someone He didn't intend me to marry. Is this a trick question?
No, it was not a trick question. It was a very serious one.
You were presumably married by a priest in a church and with a license from
the civil government where you live. I see no evidence presented that God
approved of that marriage. (I'm not saying He didn't, for I have no
evidence to the contrary either.) Do you have some?

As to either Marriage Encounter or Retrouville-- both would be non-starters:
the therapy itself is bad enough and she has not looked favorably on even
the idea of a Cursillo weekend, which would be even less threatening.

Ted

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> writes:
"Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:slrnc2fsa8.34k.tony@home.cigardiary.com... Because God wouldn't join me to someone He didn't intend me to marry. Is this a trick question? No, it was not a trick question. It was a very serious one. You were presumably married by a priest in a church and with a license from the civil government where you live. I see no evidence presented that God approved of that marriage.

Unless I'm mistaken, Tony is Catholic. So being married by a priest
in a church _is_ evidence (for him) that god approved.

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c08etp$13o9gp$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:%ANVb.10744$M8.7915@nwrdny02.gnilink.net... A door opens just a crack. A small light shines on the inner workings of the mind. This one was more than a crack. My father looked down on my mother (or so that's how I think I perceived it.) It usually wasn't blatant, but just enough it upset me. Our family was very close to another family (almost like having two sets of parents) and the husband there was also prone to bursts of being upset with his
wife, things I perceived as, I guess, disrespectful. I didn't like that either. And then my wife's brother-in-law was, I felt, quite demeaning of his
wife, often using sarcasm in talking to her about things she did. I'm sure I internalized that I didn't want to behave in any of those ways -- but not knowing any other way to behave the best I could do was simply not
interact. On the other hand, since those were the only models I had -- it was, and
is, all too easy for those ways of thinking and behaving to come out. And subtly it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy: because I at least unconsciously treated my wife as second-class, without respect, she came
to view herself that way too and to act in ways that only confirmed what I thought about her. Or so it seems. Ted

Marvelous work Ted. Really good stuff. Let me ask. I light of what you have
just written above, how do you see that manifested in your current
situation?

That is....

How did your childhood effect your choice of a mate?

How did your childhood experiences manifest themselves in
your interpersonal relationships particularly your wife?

>I see no evidence presented that God approved of thatmarriage.

IMO, Ted, you're treading on very shaky ground here.

Tracey

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:1MSVb.22151$IF1.16237@nwrdny03.gnilink.net... That is.... How did your childhood effect your choice of a mate?
Actually, she chose me. As best I can tell, I was desparate enough for
affection and attention from a woman and sufficiently lacking in
self-confidence I'd have anyone who'd have me. This comes from another set
of childhood experiences -- mostly, how my mother treated me -- rather than
from how my father treated my mother. As I look at it now -- having my
mother reject me and my father reject her, as it were, made my thoughts
about my mother and about women rather confused. Some of that has come out
in therapy, like how at times I'm playing back wanting to protect my mother
(any woman) from my father (me).
How did your childhood experiences manifest themselves in your interpersonal relationships particularly your wife?

I'd mostly say it has distanced me from her. On the one hand I don't want
to harm her, like I viewed my father as harming my mother by putting her
down, so I avoid all confrontation (confontation = disappointment = hurt =
harm). On the other hand, since I never learned (by observation) any
positive ways of interacting with a woman (other than in popular culture) I
didn't do those either. Subtler things like what I thought about her and
how that might have affected my actions are a little harder to pin down. I
do know that also as part of what I observed that a husband generally didn't
talk to his wife about money or what went on at the job -- and also left the
day to day details of raising the kids up to her. So since that is most of
what I was doing and what she was doing we had very things over which we
could interact.

Ted

"Tracey" <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote in message
news:4027FAFD.7020708@aol.com...I see no evidence presented that God approved of thatmarriage. IMO, Ted, you're treading on very shaky ground here.

Telling what God is up to is almost always on shaky ground.

Ted

On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 15:03:41 -0600, Seeker
<tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote: "Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:slrnc2fsa8.34k.tony@home.cigardiary.com... Because God wouldn't join me to someone He didn't intend me to marry. Is this a trick question? No, it was not a trick question. It was a very serious one. You were presumably married by a priest in a church and with a license from the civil government where you live. I see no evidence presented that God approved of that marriage. (I'm not saying He didn't, for I have no evidence to the contrary either.) Do you have some?

I don't need any. Like St. Thomas Aquinas said: "For those with faith no
explanation is necessary. For those without faith, no explanation is
sufficient"
As to either Marriage Encounter or Retrouville-- both would be non-starters: the therapy itself is bad enough and she has not looked favorably on even the idea of a Cursillo weekend, which would be even less threatening.

You didn't answer the question. Did you *ask her*? You seem to be making
a lot of value judgenents on what she would accept and what she would not
accept. You need to start letting her think for herself.

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

>>>I see no evidence presented that God approved of thatmarriage.
IMO, Ted, you're treading on very shaky ground here.
Telling what God is up to is almost always on shaky ground.

That wasn't what I was referring to and I'm pretty sure you
know that.

Tracey

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0402091049.753a106e@posting.google.c om... So how come I don't get paid the big bucks? ;-) The difference between social work and therapy. when I was in grad school, I knew then and there that I'd never make it as a therapist in a shmancy office working with couples who had all the money in the world. I had no desire to work with Pierre and Brandy and sit and listen to how the manicurist screwed up and how her house cleaner was a no show minutes before the dinner for 20. I immediately started working with children, my passion. And no fru fru office either :-)

Am I reading this right in that you're a MSW who does therapy/counseling
with kids? Man, talk about someone who's brain I need to pick!

Seeker wrote: In article <c06p47$140fj8$1@ID-123442.news.uni-berlin.de>, Tai <tainuiti@yahoo.com> wrote: With a bit of luck, if you take things slowly enough, your wife will start to enjoy having you in her personal space enough to enjoy you kissing her and she may reciprocate. Sounds like a plan. Thanks. Am I allowed to put it on a small piece of paper to carry around with me to remember all the details? (-:

No, that's absolutely forbidden. :)

Seriously, that suggestion is part of what I see as your 'overthinking to
the point of stasis' problem. If you need a cheat sheet then you aren't
*feeling* what you need to do to make this a natural process. You will feel
awkward and clumsy to start with, especially since your wife is likely to
look at you oddly and comment however subtley you approach inceasing your
tenderness towards her.

And don't stick to my script, add your own variations. You know your wife
and you're best placed to know what are the best approaches for her. Again,
stop thinking and start feeling.
I know I will have to go *very* slowly -- else she'll want to know what's given rise to the change in behavior and what ulterior motive I might have... or is that interior motive?

Yes, and Jingle Bells has given you good advice on that, tell your wife the
truth. I think the key is not to be too intense and be careful with your
timing; i.e. stop before she asks you to (by stiffening or withdrawing)
rather than after. Give her room to come to you and expect both of you to
feel clumsy and stiff.

I'm drawing from my own experience of when my husband and I have had a
conflict to the point we're both feeling emotionally bruised. Sometimes it's
too difficult to come back together in a rush - it's better to spiral
towards each other obliquely by showing little signs of goodwill, loving
feelings, and opening up towards the other in small easy steps.

Aside: There's some discussion going on in another thread about Myers-Briggs
typing - I test INFJ/ISFJ. I've forgotten to what degree the F and the J are
expressed but the I is pronounced and obviously the N/S is smack in the
middle. (Possibly it's typical of my personality type to not put a lot of
credence into the whole idea of personality testing!) Anyway, I seem to fit
at least some of what they describe for my types even if I suspect it's a
bit more like astrology readings in the newspaper than science.

As an introvert I can easily put up a shell to protect myself but I think
I'm fortunate that I can usually analyse why I'm doing it and then feel my
way out of it and that's how I approach relationship problems. I try to work
out what needs to be done and then I do it. To me the thinking about it part
is very important but the doing part is what is most important and I believe
inertia is a killer. I'm not generally impulsive but I believe action, even
incorrectly applied, is probably better than long silences and inaction.
Silence and inaction mean neglect to me and neglect withers all the good
emotions. Does that make sense?
I'll let you know how it goes -- after a week or so.

Thanks.

Tai

Caren wrote:
Tai, You should be a writer! I love what you wrote and I'd be shocked if it didn't help Ted. I'm going to print it out for my husband to read too.

Thanks, Caren. I hope it helps.

Tai

"Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> writes:
snip I'm drawing from my own experience of when my husband and I have had a conflict to the point we're both feeling emotionally bruised. Sometimes it's too difficult to come back together in a rush - it's better to spiral towards each other obliquely by showing little signs of goodwill, loving feelings, and opening up towards the other in small easy steps.

That is a nice description.
Aside: There's some discussion going on in another thread about Myers-Briggs typing - I test INFJ/ISFJ. I've forgotten to what degree the F and the J are expressed but the I is pronounced and obviously the N/S is smack in the middle. (Possibly it's typical of my personality type to not put a lot of credence into the whole idea of personality testing!) Anyway, I seem to fit at least some of what they describe for my types even if I suspect it's a bit more like astrology readings in the newspaper than science.

OK, I have a different set of letters than you (even though I've
forgotten what they are), but your last sentence above describes my
feelings very well.

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c08uli$13oqt3$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:1MSVb.22151$IF1.16237@nwrdny03.gnilink.net... That is.... How did your childhood effect your choice of a mate? Actually, she chose me. As best I can tell, I was desparate enough for affection and attention from a woman and sufficiently lacking in self-confidence I'd have anyone who'd have me. This comes from another
set of childhood experiences -- mostly, how my mother treated me -- rather
than from how my father treated my mother. As I look at it now -- having my mother reject me and my father reject her, as it were, made my thoughts about my mother and about women rather confused. Some of that has come
out in therapy, like how at times I'm playing back wanting to protect my
mother (any woman) from my father (me).

Good. Very Good. Trickle down negative emotions. You say that your wife
initially
showed you affection? I suppose that has changed according to your present
descriptions.
Or rather is your memory of those affections clouded now???

If you are aware of these emotional constraints, how do you deal with them
during your
interactions? In other words, when you see yourself "playing the role" you
have been taught,
do you make any attempt to step out of the old role and be more revealing of
your newly
obtained self knowledge?
How did your childhood experiences manifest themselves in your interpersonal relationships particularly your wife? I'd mostly say it has distanced me from her. On the one hand I don't want to harm her, like I viewed my father as harming my mother by putting her down, so I avoid all confrontation (confontation = disappointment = hurt = harm).

But you do her harm in another way, true?
On the other hand, since I never learned (by observation) any positive ways of interacting with a woman (other than in popular culture)
I didn't do those either.

As has been observed here before, culture (read that as the arts) does in
fact
have many of the answers. It is as though it were a giant smorgasboard of
lives that you can choose from, my friend. Reach out and try one on.
Subtler things like what I thought about her and how that might have affected my actions are a little harder to pin down.

Another area to explore but well worth the effort. It takes effort to gain
any degree of self-knowledge. (see passage at the bottom of this post.)
I do know that also as part of what I observed that a husband generally
didn't talk to his wife about money or what went on at the job -- and also left
the day to day details of raising the kids up to her. So since that is most
of what I was doing and what she was doing we had very things over which we could interact. Ted

Yes these are roles that are laid out for you to follow. It is easy to just
accept the dream of your life as it is presented to you. It is better to
dream
your own dream and make it into your own life. A life that is not presented
to
you but is found by you.

You might want to read "The Four Agreements" by Don Miguel Ruiz. It is
very useful.

Here is a favorite passage from Gibran that I am fond of.

And a man said, "Speak to us of Self-Knowledge."

And he answered, saying:

Your hearts know in silence the secrets of the days and the nights.

But your ears thirst for the sound of your heart's knowledge.

You would know in words that which you have always known in thought.

You would touch with your fingers the naked body of your dreams.

And it is well you should.

The hidden well-spring of your soul must needs rise and run murmuring to the
sea;

And the treasure of your infinite depths would be revealed to your eyes.

But let there be no scales to weigh your unknown treasure;

And seek not the depths of your knowledge with staff or sounding line.

For self is a sea boundless and measureless.

Say not, "I have found the truth," but rather, "I have found a truth."

Say not, "I have found the path of the soul." Say rather, "I have met the
soul walking upon my path."

For the soul walks upon all paths.

The soul walks not upon a line, neither does it grow like a reed.

The soul unfolds itself, like a lotus of countless petals.

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0402091049.753a106e@posting.google.c om... "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:<wDNVb.10745$M8.3028@nwrdny02.gnilink.net>... "Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:slrnc2d6sr.u9j.tony@home.cigardiary.com... On 7 Feb 2004 21:03:29 -0800, Caren <caren50@msn.com> wrote: > Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:<slrnc2al9n.h75.tony@home.cigardiary.com>... >> On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 20:20:26 GMT, Seeker >> <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote: >> > As part of our weekly "date" at the grocery store my wife and I picked >> > up Valentines today. I'd forgotten how painful it is for me to
read >> > through them, looking for one I can give her. There are many
I'd >> > *like* to be able to give her -- ones that have sentiments I wish
I >> > felt, wish I could say honestly, but I just can't. >> > >> > I want to be in love with her -- but I can't pretend to feel what
I >> > don't feel, give thanks for things that aren't there, make
promises >> > that aren't within me. >> >> Jeez! Why don't you try a variant of Pascal's wager. Treat your
wife the >> way you would treat her if you felt like you would like to feel
about her. >> Do that for a month *faithfully* and let us all know what happens. >> >> If you don't want to try it, stop your whining here. >> >> -Tony > > > Ted...I do know how you feel. Some of the Valentine messages are
ever > so mushy and gushy and don't say how I really feel. Dig deep and
see > if you can find one that says how you feel without all the goosh. > Tony, if you are so tired of the 'whining" then your one of your > choices is to ignore the messages. Because you are happily in love > and have all that you want in life, does not give you the right to
be > intolerant of those who are not as lucky. I read your most of your > posts and a lot of the time you have some words of wisdom, you also > have a tone of arrogance and disconnect for those who are not as > fortunate as you. Caren, support takes different forms. Sometimes a kick in the *** is required. My problem is not with Ted's "fortune", it's with Ted's continuing complaints without wanting to do what is required to make
it better or leave. His wife is not cooperating. He refuses to divorce her. He prefers
to stay in the situation he's in, and as such is totally responsible for
his plight. > Having a great marriage is not simply a reflection of how wonderful > you are. Some of it is genes. Some of it is luck. Some of it how > you were raised. When you are lucky enough to be in a relationship > that is not fraught with confusion, pain , indecision, it does not > give you the right to be arrogant. Part of it is discernment, it's not genes, it's not luck. It's
looking logically at your potential spouse and deciding if this is the person
for you. It takes two to make a marriage. It takes two to keep a
marriage strong. It takes two to save a marriage. If only one wants to save a marriage, it's unfortunate, but it can't be done. The remaining
person has two choices. 1) Deal with it. 2) Leave. > That's my two cents. Ted, I feel the same way that you do on all > occassions when it's time to send my parents cards for birthdays, > holidays, mother and fathers day. Reading the cards that are mush
and > gush nauseate me. They make me long for having parents that I could > really send the cards to, but I know that I can't. So I usually go > for the humorous cards. That usually works. Good luck. > > If you want, you can send me a mushy email card that you wish you > could send your wife. :-) :) -Tony Your lack of patience with Ted clearly expresses why a trained therapist gets paid as much as they do. It's not easy work. So how come I don't get paid the big bucks? ;-) The difference between social work and therapy. when I was in grad school, I knew then and there that I'd never make it as a therapist in a shmancy office working with couples who had all the money in the world. I had no desire to work with Pierre and Brandy and sit and listen to how the manicurist screwed up and how her house cleaner was a no show minutes before the dinner for 20. I immediately started working with children, my passion. And no fru fru office either :-)

Did you ever see the movie "High Anxiety"? Mel Brooks plays a shrink
who is giving a keynote address to a lecture hall filled with professional
shrinks.
He concludes by pointing to the pictures of the greats in his field hanging
behind
him and thanks them for giving him such a good living.

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c08uli$13oqt3$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:1MSVb.22151$IF1.16237@nwrdny03.gnilink.net... That is.... How did your childhood effect your choice of a mate? Actually, she chose me. As best I can tell, I was desparate enough for affection and attention from a woman and sufficiently lacking in self-confidence I'd have anyone who'd have me. This comes from another
set of childhood experiences -- mostly, how my mother treated me -- rather
than from how my father treated my mother. As I look at it now -- having my mother reject me and my father reject her, as it were, made my thoughts about my mother and about women rather confused. Some of that has come
out in therapy, like how at times I'm playing back wanting to protect my
mother (any woman) from my father (me). How did your childhood experiences manifest themselves in your interpersonal relationships particularly your wife? I'd mostly say it has distanced me from her. On the one hand I don't want to harm her, like I viewed my father as harming my mother by putting her down, so I avoid all confrontation (confontation = disappointment = hurt = harm). On the other hand, since I never learned (by observation) any positive ways of interacting with a woman (other than in popular culture)
I didn't do those either. Subtler things like what I thought about her and how that might have affected my actions are a little harder to pin down.
I do know that also as part of what I observed that a husband generally
didn't talk to his wife about money or what went on at the job -- and also left
the day to day details of raising the kids up to her. So since that is most
of what I was doing and what she was doing we had very things over which we could interact. Ted

Ted, have you every read anything on solution oriented therapy? Given your
tendency to be "stuck", it might be helpful to you. One book is "Do One
Thing Different" by Bill O'Hanlon - some info on it is here:

http://www.writtenword.com.au/writtenword/Article.asp?Id=7

It isn't strictly speaking a "relationship" book, but the ideas in it could
be applied to relationships. While I am not a therapist, I suspect that in
your case it could be applied pretty successfully.

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c08uli$13oqt3$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:1MSVb.22151$IF1.16237@nwrdny03.gnilink.net... That is.... How did your childhood effect your choice of a mate?

<snip>

Its amazing how our past can shape our future. I am presently reading "The
Sound of One Hand Clapping". Its quite a disturbing account of how
relationships are affected by childhood memories actually.

Amy

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 23:18:52 -0600, Amy D <amykae@joimail.com> wrote:
And sometimes, Caren, it is just a matter of **** or get off the pot.Rarely, are there "perfect marriages" by luck, genes, or how you wereraised. They take alot of work.I doubt even Urf would say it didn't take any action on his part tohave a great marriage.

You know I so disagree with that. I firmly believe that if one has to
*work hard* on their marriage then they are in the wrong relationship.
Now I am referring to the day-to-day give and take of living with a
person. I do believe that extraordinary circumstances do in fact
require work and comprise. But if one has to work at daily living with
other person then I feel that they are not with the right person. A
relationship should be easy.

Of course I bought into the good relationships "take a lot of work"
when I got first married and I virtually turned myself into a pretzel
trying to make it work. So when I start to date again if it wasn't
easy I just didn't expect that relationship to go anywhere. Of course
I suppose that must mean I am an easy person to get a long with (~heh~
I have been told this, even by my ex). Because it almost goes without
saying one has to become what one wants.

The only reason I said that is that I need some discipline to proceed
slowly -- I'm not very good at subtlety! *I* need a script -- if I
improvise I'll skip all the intermediate steps. It's probably more that
I'm carrying it around as a reminder rather than that I'm going to follow it
literally. After I get up in the morning to feed the animals and put the
coffee on I frequently come back to bed just to cuddle (although I admit I
have a hard time letting stay with just a cuddle.) This morning I made a
point of saying "I like to cuddle" and after a considerable while she
actually responded with "I like to cuddle too." That was nice.

Ted

"Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c090a6$148u72$1@ID-123442.news.uni-berlin.de... Seeker wrote: Sounds like a plan. Thanks. Am I allowed to put it on a small piece of paper to carry around with me to remember all the details? (-: No, that's absolutely forbidden. :) Seriously, that suggestion is part of what I see as your 'overthinking to the point of stasis' problem. If you need a cheat sheet then you aren't *feeling* what you need to do to make this a natural process. You will
feel awkward and clumsy to start with, especially since your wife is likely to look at you oddly and comment however subtley you approach inceasing your tenderness towards her.

As a matter of fact, I don't. What, then, were you referring to? I thought
Tony and I were having an admittedly not very productive discussion about
how one knows whether a particular marriage was one God desires ("what God
hath put together") or not. I just broadened that by implication into the
general question of how does one know what's God's will in any given
situation where scripture or canon is ambiguous, capable of multiple
interpretations, or silent on it. (While I may disagree about all or I
suspect even most cases of canon law and similar things, I do not dispute
that God's self-revelation continues and I see no reason why we shouldn't
try to capture that on paper.)

Ted

"Tracey" <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote in message
news:402800FC.3090001@aol.com...>I see no evidence presented that God approved of that>marriage. IMO, Ted, you're treading on very shaky ground here.Telling what God is up to is almost always on shaky ground. That wasn't what I was referring to and I'm pretty sure you know that.

"Bill in Co." <LostInTime@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:bwYVb.21998$uM2.16144@newsread1.news.pas.eart hlink.net... Amy Lou wrote:
He decided to stop reminding me how much of a disappointment I was to
him and THAT's when things finally started to improve. But it sounds like Ted hasn't reached that stage - or is committed to
reaching that stage.

What stage? A stage of trying a new tactic or a stage of taking the bull my
the horns and fixing a problem by changing yourself?

And that is on HIM - not his wife. One can't honestly put it all - or even most of it - on one's spouse like that, in most instances
(IMO). THAT is denial - and it's unfair.

Are you talking about Ted and how he seems to think that it is his wife who
needs to change, not him? You are probably right. Ted will probably ignore
my suggestion because it was about something *he* could do to try to change
the situation. :)

Amy

"Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote > Usually the things we do for our spouse to show our love are the things that make us feel loved, but they are not necessarily the things that make our spouse feel loved. We have to find our spouse's love language and begin speaking that language in our daily lives.

Of course Tony, but did you get my point about how we should sometimes stop
thinking about the negative side of our spouse's actions and think about how
it is their way of loving us? I cannot go through life just doing things to
make my husband feel loved. Occasionally I need to do something loving as
far as MY feelings go. I feel good giving my husband a nice mushy card. I
don't do it for him (because I know he just quickly glances at it and shoves
it in the drawer -perhaps it makes him uncomfortable even?), I do it for me.
Same thing for him when he paws at me. He knows I don't like it but to him
it feels good. I *let* him do it because I know it makes him feel good.

Amy

Amy Lou wrote: "Bill in Co." <LostInTime@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:bwYVb.21998$uM2.16144@newsread1.news.pas.eart hlink.net... Amy Lou wrote: He decided to stop reminding me how much of a disappointment I was to him and THAT's when things finally started to improve. But it sounds like Ted hasn't reached that stage - or is committed to reaching that stage. What stage? A stage of trying a new tactic or a stage of taking the bull my the horns and fixing a problem by changing yourself? And that is on HIM - not his wife. One can't honestly put it all - or even most of it - on one's spouse like that, in most instances (IMO). THAT is denial - and it's unfair. Are you talking about Ted and how he seems to think that it is his wife who needs to change, not him?

Exactly.

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<c08etp$13o9gp$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de>... "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:%ANVb.10744$M8.7915@nwrdny02.gnilink.net... A door opens just a crack. A small light shines on the inner workings of the mind. This one was more than a crack. My father looked down on my mother (or so that's how I think I perceived it.) It usually wasn't blatant, but just enough it upset me. Our family was very close to another family (almost like having two sets of parents) and the husband there was also prone to bursts of being upset with his wife, things I perceived as, I guess, disrespectful. I didn't like that either. And then my wife's brother-in-law was, I felt, quite demeaning of his wife, often using sarcasm in talking to her about things she did. I'm sure I internalized that I didn't want to behave in any of those ways -- but not knowing any other way to behave the best I could do was simply not interact. On the other hand, since those were the only models I had -- it was, and is, all too easy for those ways of thinking and behaving to come out. And subtly it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy: because I at least unconsciously treated my wife as second-class, without respect, she came to view herself that way too and to act in ways that only confirmed what I thought about her. Or so it seems. Ted


That is a major insight and I commend you for having it. Check out my
recent thread on Childhoods... this is a topic in our house lately,
too.

jen

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<c08md7$14gh20$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de>...
Oh, one can always do things contrary to God -- not to be flip about it, but that's what free will is about. But, not that is not my problem -- I am absolutely certain that my wife and I were intended to be married. It's what that means and what I am supposed to do now where things get cloudy. While the discernment about it isn't as clear as I'd like, I also do believe it is God's intention that we be in marriage counselling.

I got to thinking about this Ted. About God's plan for you and your
marriage. God does often work in mysterious ways, and a really sad and
awful thought occurred to me.

What if God intends for you to stay stuck and then one day you get hit
by a car or die of a heart attack, without ever getting unstuck, and
you do die without ever having been passionately kissed, or without
ever resolving the situation with your wife?

What if His ultimate plan is to let you be the lesson for all of us
here reading ASM....not just those of us who post frequently, but all
the thousands of lurkers... what if He means to hold you up as an
example of how sad and fruitless it would be to remain stuck until the
end of one's days? To remind us how short and fleeting life is, and
that we should make the best of it while we can.

I suppose your life would have meaning to others, and it wouldn't all
be a waste. But still I would find that really heart breaking.

jen

"Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:<7XEVb.48561$Wa.11652@news-server.bigpond.net.au>...
Here is the one I got my hubby: "You're in my thoughts so frequently Throughout the passing days, Because I like recalling All your loving, caring ways... And every recollection Makes me smile and wish I knew A brand-new way to let you know How much I think of you... But if you'll read between the lines, You'll know, at least in part The many loving thoughts of you I keep within my heart!" It doesn't actually say "I love you" or "You make me so happy" but its kind of nice don't you think? Amy

I just dug out the one I bought a few weeks ago for my DF. I had
hidden it when I got home from the store, and completely forgotten
where I hid it. He's at class tonight so I could rip the place apart
to find it. Here's what it says - not too mushy, but he'll love it:

"We don't have to do anything Wild and Kinky to celebrate Valentine's
Day.....

.... Staying this happy for this long is kind of weird in itself."

Of course, now I've got to get thinking about what I will write to
personalize it even more. He always adds something really clever and
perfect and sweet.

jen

>As a matter of fact, I don't.

Okay, Ted, if you say so. (And, for those who don't know what
I'm referring to, I made a post saying that I thought Ted was
on shaky ground in re to a reply he made to Tony, Ted responded
in a way that showed he missed what I was referring to, and I
then responded that I thought he knew quite well that that wasn't
what I meant.'
What, then, were you referring to? I thought Tony and I werehaving an admittedly not very productive discussion about howone knows whether a particular marriage was one God desires("what God hath put together") or not.

That was a discussion? Not from where I sit. 'That' was, IMO,
a questioning of Tony's belief that God wanted him to be married
to his wife, a request that he offer 'proof'. And I think you're
on shaky ground because *you* haven't offered any proof either.
Do I want proof? No. I don't really care what has led you to
this belief. I just find it arrogant on your part to question
someone else's belief when you share that same belief. Almost
an 'Well, I'm special and God *has* made his desires known to
me about this subject but you? You're going to have to prove to
me that you're special, too' kinda thing.

Tracey

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0402101717.317b00c@posting.google.co m... "Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<c08md7$14gh20$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de>... Oh, one can always do things contrary to God -- not to be flip about it,
but that's what free will is about. But, not that is not my problem -- I am absolutely certain that my wife and I were intended to be married. It's what that means and what I am supposed to do now where things get cloudy. While
the discernment about it isn't as clear as I'd like, I also do believe it is God's intention that we be in marriage counselling. I got to thinking about this Ted. About God's plan for you and your marriage. God does often work in mysterious ways, and a really sad and awful thought occurred to me.

Yes, that is a sad and awful thought. It's also not consistent with how I
understand God to work -- which never has pain and unhappiness as its aim.
(People are not set up to be bad examples.) While I think there are times
when whatever God has in mind is so important (by God's reasoning, not ours)
that we have very little freedom to thwart it, for the most part we are
quite free to reject God's intentions for us. -- we can make as much pain as
we like There is of course a thread of patience and endurance and the
like, but that is as an appropriate response to the pain and suffering that
is inevitable, but the pain and suffering itself is never God's intention.

Ted

"Tracey" <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote in message
news:402A5FFC.30508@aol.com...As a matter of fact, I don't. . And I think you're on shaky ground because *you* haven't offered any proof either. Do I want proof? No. I don't really care what has led you to this belief. I just find it arrogant on your part to question someone else's belief when you share that same belief.

Now I see what you meant.
Guilty as charged.

Ted

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c0do26$15lcvc$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c8cb5319.0402101717.317b00c@posting.google.co m... "Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<c08md7$14gh20$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de>... Oh, one can always do things contrary to God -- not to be flip about
it, but that's what free will is about. But, not that is not my problem -- I
am absolutely certain that my wife and I were intended to be married. It's what
that means and what I am supposed to do now where things get cloudy. While the discernment about it isn't as clear as I'd like, I also do believe it
is God's intention that we be in marriage counselling. I got to thinking about this Ted. About God's plan for you and your marriage. God does often work in mysterious ways, and a really sad and awful thought occurred to me. Yes, that is a sad and awful thought. It's also not consistent with how I understand God to work -- which never has pain and unhappiness as its aim. (People are not set up to be bad examples.) While I think there are
times when whatever God has in mind is so important (by God's reasoning, not
ours) that we have very little freedom to thwart it, for the most part we are quite free to reject God's intentions for us. -- we can make as much pain
as we like There is of course a thread of patience and endurance and the like, but that is as an appropriate response to the pain and suffering
that is inevitable, but the pain and suffering itself is never God's intention. Ted

In your hands God's plan is pliant and malleable.

"Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:
Of course Tony, but did you get my point about how we should sometimes stop thinking about the negative side of our spouse's actions and think about how it is their way of loving us?

Yes, as long as it's balanced with their effort to do things that feel
truly loving to *us*.
I cannot go through life just doing things to make my husband feel loved.

No, you can't. As long as you balance what you do for you with things
that you do for him.
Occasionally I need to do something loving as far as MY feelings go.

Certainly. But you should be aware that you are doing is more for your
own needs. Nothing wrong with that.
I feel good giving my husband a nice mushy card.

And I am sure he doesn't mind you doing it, just doesn't particularly
feel special because of it, right?
I don't do it for him (because I know he just quickly glances at it and shoves it in the drawer -perhaps it makes him uncomfortable even?), I do it for me.

Good for you. But do you get upset that he responds the way he does?
Same thing for him when he paws at me. He knows I don't like it but to him it feels good. I *let* him do it because I know it makes him feel good.

Exactly. That's what spouses do for each other. Now, if he gets mad
because his way of "showing love" doesn't make you feel as loved as he
wants, his expectation is unrealistic. He should expect that you be
cheerful about it and *let* him do it with open arms, because it makes
HIM feel good, and that's good enough in itself for you! Then, when he
truly wants to make you feel loved he should do what you want.

Seeker wrote:

After I get up in the morning to feed the animals and put the coffee on I frequently come back to bed just to cuddle (although I admit I have a hard time letting stay with just a cuddle.) This morning I made a point of saying "I like to cuddle" and after a considerable while she actually responded with "I like to cuddle too." That was nice.

That sounds a bit like progress!

I'm so glad. :)

Tai

In article <EBuWb.13399$M8.9134@nwrdny02.gnilink.net>, urf
<urf@nospam.com> wrote:
In your hands God's plan is pliant and malleable.

Sometimes, ''though, I think we just tear it to shreds.

Ted

"Seeker" <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message
news:110220042246390269%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com... In article <EBuWb.13399$M8.9134@nwrdny02.gnilink.net>, urf <urf@nospam.com> wrote: In your hands God's plan is pliant and malleable. Sometimes, ''though, I think we just tear it to shreds. Ted

Speaking for yourself Ted?

Ultimately the interpretation of the world and it's attendant meaning
and reality is an individuals greatest responsibility to himself.

Even his interpretation of "God".

"Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c0et4e$16mca5$1@ID-123442.news.uni-berlin.de... Seeker wrote: After I get up in the morning to feed the animals and put the coffee on I frequently come back to bed just to cuddle (although I admit I have a hard time letting stay with just a cuddle.) This morning I made a point of saying "I like to cuddle" and after a considerable while she actually responded with "I like to cuddle too." That was nice. That sounds a bit like progress!

Well, it would be except even just a little bit of cuddling that way gets me
aroused. The next day I pushed for more than just cuddling and she didn't
object; it wasn't very satisfying. I feel bad if I do and bad if iI don't.

Ted

"Joy" <fairly_happy_doesn't_need_any_more_spam@withoutspa myahoo.com> wrote
in message news:7azWb.38515$qK3.25443@bignews3.bellsouth.net. .. Does she mind hearing that she's pretty? Or if that is still a bit much, could you tell her once in a while that her hair looks nice today, or that the color of her shirt really brings out her eyes, or that her skin feels soft, etc?

Good ideas. Thanks.

Ted

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:7ULWb.14849$M8.14087@nwrdny02.gnilink.net... "Seeker" <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message news:110220042246390269%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com... In article <EBuWb.13399$M8.9134@nwrdny02.gnilink.net>, urf <urf@nospam.com> wrote: In your hands God's plan is pliant and malleable. Sometimes, ''though, I think we just tear it to shreds. Ted Speaking for yourself Ted?

Nah, I'm more observant -- or arrogant -- than that. Not just for or about
myself.

Ted

"Bill in Co." <LostInTime@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:%YdWb.18942$F23.1525@newsread2.news.pas.earth link.net... Amy Lou wrote: "Bill in Co." <LostInTime@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:bwYVb.21998$uM2.16144@newsread1.news.pas.eart hlink.net... Amy Lou wrote:> He decided to stop reminding me how much of a disappointment I was to
him> and THAT's when things finally started to improve. But it sounds like Ted hasn't reached that stage - or is committed to reaching that stage. What stage? A stage of trying a new tactic or a stage of taking the bull
my the horns and fixing a problem by changing yourself? And that is on HIM - not his wife. One can't honestly put it all - or even most of it - on one's spouse like that, in most instances (IMO). THAT is denial - and it's unfair. Are you talking about Ted and how he seems to think that it is his wife
who needs to change, not him? Exactly.
I've read and re-read this subthread and it took me awhile to put to words
what about it (and some of the other subthreads) that was bothering me.

Have you all forgotten that until I told her I was unhappy and that'd I done
all I thought I could do on my own without involving her (whether there is
more I could have done without involving her I don't know and now of course
never will) *she* says she was perfectly happy with how things were? In
other words, as far as she was concerned it would appear I *had* been
speaking her love language, had been making deposits in the "love bank," had
been avoiding the "love busters." As long as we keep going to therapy of
course she is going to be reminded that I am unhappy. You see, I made the
unforgiveable mistake of letting her know I was unhappy -- got any bright
ideas what I do now?

Ted

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c0gcgd$17j5hk$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:7ULWb.14849$M8.14087@nwrdny02.gnilink.net... "Seeker" <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message news:110220042246390269%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com... In article <EBuWb.13399$M8.9134@nwrdny02.gnilink.net>, urf <urf@nospam.com> wrote: > In your hands God's plan is pliant and malleable. Sometimes, ''though, I think we just tear it to shreds. Ted Speaking for yourself Ted? Nah, I'm more observant -- or arrogant -- than that. Not just for or
about myself. Ted

You have made "God" into your own image.

YOU MUST accept the responsibility that comes with that !

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:JpPWb.14916$M8.9332@nwrdny02.gnilink.net... You have made "God" into your own image. YOU MUST accept the responsibility that comes with that !

Somewhere recently (meaning last year or two!) I ran across the observation
that that is exactly what we are called to do -- if we *are* made in God's
image then we are divine and we cannot shirk the responsibility of acting
that way. We do make life and death decisions about others, we do make
decisions that affect the course of the lives of countless others -- like it
or not, we do act as if we are God -- because we are given that power. The
often-repeated saying in 12-step groups "all you need know is there is a God
and it isn't you" when looked at in that light casts a strange shadow.

Ted

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c0gh6r$170g2h$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:JpPWb.14916$M8.9332@nwrdny02.gnilink.net... You have made "God" into your own image. YOU MUST accept the responsibility that comes with that ! Somewhere recently (meaning last year or two!) I ran across the
observation that that is exactly what we are called to do -- if we *are* made in God's image then we are divine and we cannot shirk the responsibility of acting that way.

Suppose for a "God" is made into a image of our expectations?
We do make life and death decisions about others, we do make decisions that affect the course of the lives of countless others -- like
it or not, we do act as if we are God -- because we are given that power.
The often-repeated saying in 12-step groups "all you need know is there is a
God and it isn't you" when looked at in that light casts a strange shadow. Ted

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<c0gb8b$1777t7$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de>... "Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c0et4e$16mca5$1@ID-123442.news.uni-berlin.de... Seeker wrote: After I get up in the morning to feed the animals and put the coffee on I frequently come back to bed just to cuddle (although I admit I have a hard time letting stay with just a cuddle.) This morning I made a point of saying "I like to cuddle" and after a considerable while she actually responded with "I like to cuddle too." That was nice. That sounds a bit like progress! Well, it would be except even just a little bit of cuddling that way gets me aroused. The next day I pushed for more than just cuddling and she didn't object; it wasn't very satisfying. I feel bad if I do and bad if iI don't. Ted

If getting aroused is working against you then maybe after you've fed
the animals and before you get back into bed you should, umm, - feed
your own animal. You may have better luck sticking to just cuddling.

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<c0gb8b$1777t7$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de>...

Well, it would be except even just a little bit of cuddling that way gets me aroused. The next day I pushed for more than just cuddling and she didn't object; it wasn't very satisfying. I feel bad if I do and bad if iI don't. Ted

I guess I'm not following. Why wasn't it satisfying? Why did you feel
bad? Is it something she did (I mean, she didn't object so it's not
like you were forcing yourself on an unwilling partner, right)? Or is
this more about your own shame for wanting what you wanted?

Also I am curious about how you two cuddle. Do you talk while
cuddling? Are your eyes open or shut? Are you facing each other in a
hug, or spooning or what?

jen

shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) writes:
"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<c0gb8b$1777t7$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de>... Well, it would be except even just a little bit of cuddling that way gets me aroused. The next day I pushed for more than just cuddling and she didn't object; it wasn't very satisfying. I feel bad if I do and bad if iI don't. Ted I guess I'm not following. Why wasn't it satisfying? Why did you feel bad? Is it something she did (I mean, she didn't object so it's not like you were forcing yourself on an unwilling partner, right)? Or is this more about your own shame for wanting what you wanted?

I've been there, so I know what he is talking about. It _is_ like you
were forcing yourself on an unwilling partner. Or pretty close. And
what is desired for intimacy is mutual pleasure, not one person
acceding to the desires of the other.

"Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message
news:slrnc2fvlp.34k.tony@home.cigardiary.com... I don't need any. Like St. Thomas Aquinas said: "For those with faith no explanation is necessary. For those without faith, no explanation is sufficient"
Sounds like the response the husband of a friend of mine made when she
observed how few people in our church had any direct experience of God. He
said, greatly disappointing her, "we don't need that; we have faith."
What exactly do you mean by the word "faith", Tony?
As to either Marriage Encounter or Retrouville-- both would be
non-starters: the therapy itself is bad enough and she has not looked favorably on
even the idea of a Cursillo weekend, which would be even less threatening. You didn't answer the question. Did you *ask her*? You seem to be making a lot of value judgenents on what she would accept and what she would not accept. You need to start letting her think for herself.

What I need to do is stop fearing rasing painful issues. That's what I need
to do.

Our therapist has never suggested to us that we do either -- I wonder why
that is?

Ted

"Joy" <fairly_happy_doesn't_need_any_more_spam@withoutspa myahoo.com> wrote
in message news:4LXVb.34780$uS3.19746@bignews4.bellsouth.net. .. Ted, have you every read anything on solution oriented therapy? Given
your tendency to be "stuck", it might be helpful to you. One book is "Do One Thing Different" by Bill O'Hanlon - some info on it is here: http://www.writtenword.com.au/writtenword/Article.asp?Id=7 It isn't strictly speaking a "relationship" book, but the ideas in it
could be applied to relationships. While I am not a therapist, I suspect that
in your case it could be applied pretty successfully.

Joy -- thanks. That URL didn't work but I found it on Amazon and was
pleasantly surprised to find it's one of the few books I've looked at where
*every* review was ravingly positive. It's on my "to read" list now.

Ted

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> writes:
"Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message
snip theology As to either Marriage Encounter or Retrouville-- both would be non-starters: the therapy itself is bad enough and she has not looked favorably on even the idea of a Cursillo weekend, which would be even less threatening. You didn't answer the question. Did you *ask her*? You seem to be making a lot of value judgenents on what she would accept and what she would not accept. You need to start letting her think for herself. What I need to do is stop fearing rasing painful issues. That's what I need to do.

Yeah. But this is sort of related to what Tony is saying. The
pretexts you present here for not raising painful issues seem to be:

- that of protecting your wife

- fear of her reaction.

The second seems legitimate (although I'd recommend you work on
getting over it). The first is too much like not letting her think
for herself.
Our therapist has never suggested to us that we do either -- I wonder why that is?

Ask him!

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0402130522.43b6856c@posting.google.c om... "Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<c0gb8b$1777t7$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de>... Well, it would be except even just a little bit of cuddling that way
gets me aroused. The next day I pushed for more than just cuddling and she
didn't object; it wasn't very satisfying. I feel bad if I do and bad if iI
don't. Ted I guess I'm not following. Why wasn't it satisfying? Why did you feel bad? Is it something she did (I mean, she didn't object so it's not like you were forcing yourself on an unwilling partner, right)? Or is this more about your own shame for wanting what you wanted?
Doug answered that just perfectly. No not only didn't she object, but very
early when
I rolled away she signalled I was to come back. But it feels like she's
doing it out
of duty, not even just to please me. No response on her part (other than
she does
get lubricated.)
Also I am curious about how you two cuddle. Do you talk while cuddling? Are your eyes open or shut? Are you facing each other in a hug, or spooning or what?
Spooning, me in back of her. Sometimes naked, sometimes not (although if
she's wearing anything it's a thin rather short nightgown anyway.) No
talking. We're both probably half asleep anyway.

Ted

"Jingle Bells" <jinglebells5555@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f804e152.0402122050.180532a1@posting.google.c om... If getting aroused is working against you then maybe after you've fed the animals and before you get back into bed you should, umm, - feed your own animal. You may have better luck sticking to just cuddling.

Won't work. My refactory period is probably less than a half hour. And,
besides, there isn't any free porn on TV at that hour of the day!

Ted

"Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c0h6dv$176c27$1@ID-123442.news.uni-berlin.de... So my suggestion is to not hide your arousal nor hold yourself away from
her if you have an erection but just let her take the lead even if it means
she notes the fact you'd like more than a cuddle and passes on it... this
time.

Hmmm. So long as I don't get too bad a case of blue balls it might be
worth a try. She has yet to comment or "take the lead" but maybe eventually
she might.

Ted

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:qsKdnaxCfZGg3bXdRVn-sQ@comcast.com... "Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c08uli$13oqt3$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:1MSVb.22151$IF1.16237@nwrdny03.gnilink.net... That is.... How did your childhood effect your choice of a mate? Actually, she chose me. As best I can tell, I was desparate enough for affection and attention from a woman and sufficiently lacking in self-confidence I'd have anyone who'd have me. This comes from another set of childhood experiences -- mostly, how my mother treated me -- rather than from how my father treated my mother. As I look at it now -- having my mother reject me and my father reject her, as it were, made my thoughts about my mother and about women rather confused. Some of that has come out in therapy, like how at times I'm playing back wanting to protect my mother (any woman) from my father (me). Good. Very Good. Trickle down negative emotions. You say that your wife initially showed you affection? I suppose that has changed according to your present descriptions. Or rather is your memory of those affections clouded now??? If you are aware of these emotional constraints, how do you deal with them during your interactions? In other words, when you see yourself "playing the role" you have been taught, do you make any attempt to step out of the old role and be more revealing
of your newly obtained self knowledge? How did your childhood experiences manifest themselves in your interpersonal relationships particularly your wife? I'd mostly say it has distanced me from her. On the one hand I don't
want to harm her, like I viewed my father as harming my mother by putting
her down, so I avoid all confrontation (confontation = disappointment = hurt
= harm). But you do her harm in another way, true?On the other hand, since I never learned (by observation) any positive ways of interacting with a woman (other than in popular
culture) I didn't do those either. As has been observed here before, culture (read that as the arts) does in fact have many of the answers. It is as though it were a giant smorgasboard of lives that you can choose from, my friend. Reach out and try one on.Subtler things like what I thought about her and how that might have affected my actions are a little harder to pin down. Another area to explore but well worth the effort. It takes effort to gain any degree of self-knowledge. (see passage at the bottom of this post.) I do know that also as part of what I observed that a husband generally didn't talk to his wife about money or what went on at the job -- and also left the day to day details of raising the kids up to her. So since that is most of what I was doing and what she was doing we had very things over which we could interact. Ted Yes these are roles that are laid out for you to follow. It is easy to
just accept the dream of your life as it is presented to you. It is better to dream your own dream and make it into your own life. A life that is not
presented to you but is found by you. You might want to read "The Four Agreements" by Don Miguel Ruiz. It is very useful. Here is a favorite passage from Gibran that I am fond of. And a man said, "Speak to us of Self-Knowledge." And he answered, saying: Your hearts know in silence the secrets of the days and the nights. But your ears thirst for the sound of your heart's knowledge. You would know in words that which you have always known in thought. You would touch with your fingers the naked body of your dreams. And it is well you should. The hidden well-spring of your soul must needs rise and run murmuring to
the sea; And the treasure of your infinite depths would be revealed to your eyes. But let there be no scales to weigh your unknown treasure; And seek not the depths of your knowledge with staff or sounding line. For self is a sea boundless and measureless. Say not, "I have found the truth," but rather, "I have found a truth." Say not, "I have found the path of the soul." Say rather, "I have met the soul walking upon my path." For the soul walks upon all paths. The soul walks not upon a line, neither does it grow like a reed. The soul unfolds itself, like a lotus of countless petals.

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c0j8or$17if2l$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:qsKdnaxCfZGg3bXdRVn-sQ@comcast.com...

Oops. Pilot error. Trying again.
Good. Very Good. Trickle down negative emotions. You say that your wife initially showed you affection? I suppose that has changed according to your present descriptions. Or rather is your memory of those affections clouded now???
My memory is clouded. Hers appears to be clear.
If you are aware of these emotional constraints, how do you deal with them during your interactions? In other words, when you see yourself "playing the role" you have been taught, do you make any attempt to step out of the old role and be more revealing
of your newly obtained self knowledge?

I'm working on it... getting over the fear of rejection and the protective
instinct are pretty hard -- especially when they get reinforced! It is
very hard not treat her as a temperamental child when she acts that way --
but no doubt my actions just perpetuate it. While what bugs me varies
from moment to moment, the sort of thing that totally exasperates me is when
we're driving somewhere -- say to an art museum or a big mall -- and we run
into heavy traffic she'll break into tears and say "I want to go home."
Or if we're out looking for something at a store and don't find it at the
first one when I volunteer to go check another one she'll say in a resigned
(martyr?) tone "don't bother." If there is the slghtest impediment to
anything she'll just give up.

Ted

Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<Ih6Xb.26358$jk2.66193@attbi_s53>... shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) writes: "Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<c0gb8b$1777t7$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de>... Well, it would be except even just a little bit of cuddling that way gets me aroused. The next day I pushed for more than just cuddling and she didn't object; it wasn't very satisfying. I feel bad if I do and bad if iI don't. Ted I guess I'm not following. Why wasn't it satisfying? Why did you feel bad? Is it something she did (I mean, she didn't object so it's not like you were forcing yourself on an unwilling partner, right)? Or is this more about your own shame for wanting what you wanted? I've been there, so I know what he is talking about. It _is_ like you were forcing yourself on an unwilling partner. Or pretty close. And what is desired for intimacy is mutual pleasure, not one person acceding to the desires of the other.

Okay, but you know what? If I sat around waiting for my desire to come
back, I realize it may NEVER come back. So sometimes I force myself to
go through the motions anyway, because practice practice practice is
what it takes!!

It's like running. When I've been out of the habit the very last thing
I want to do is go running. But I force myself to lace up the shoes
and go through the motions. Sometimes it'll take a few weeks before
the endorphins start kicking back in and I start craving my run, start
eagerly looking forward to run, finding ways to schedule in that run,
miss that run when I can't find the time.

The endorphins don't kick in immediately. Those first few weeks can be
like total drudgery, especially if I haven't exercised in awhile. But
I know from experience that the endorphins won't ever kick in, if I
don't bother to even *try.*

Maybe it would help if you and Ted didn't view it as your wife
"acceding to your desires." Maybe she is just trying to kick-start
herself. Maybe she understands that if she doesn't use it, she'll lose
it.

jen

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0402131233.53fba017@posting.google.c om... Maybe it would help if you and Ted didn't view it as your wife "acceding to your desires." Maybe she is just trying to kick-start herself. Maybe she understands that if she doesn't use it, she'll lose it.

An interesting thought -- but how does one get the desire to get the desire
back?

Ted

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c0j8fd$17gp2n$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c0h6dv$176c27$1@ID-123442.news.uni-berlin.de... So my suggestion is to not hide your arousal nor hold yourself away from her if you have an erection but just let her take the lead even if it means she notes the fact you'd like more than a cuddle and passes on it... this time. Hmmm. So long as I don't get too bad a case of blue balls it might be worth a try. She has yet to comment or "take the lead" but maybe
eventually she might. Ted

Can't you go into the bathroom and take care of this blue balls by yourself?
My DH says that blue balls being actually uncomfortable is a lie. I guess
different strokes for different folks.

We were talking about the old pre-teen boy thing of "but it HURTS" in the
context of being afraid to raise a daughter. I actually got handed that one
when I was a youngster.

S

"Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote in message
news:TsSdnQx81_56qLDd4p2dnA@adelphia.com... Can't you go into the bathroom and take care of this blue balls by
yourself? My DH says that blue balls being actually uncomfortable is a lie. I guess different strokes for different folks.

I shoulda put a smiley on that... it was more a question of virtual blue
balls than real ones -- how many weeks or months of just cudding can I take
(self-pleasuring or not) without going bonkers?

Ted

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:qn1xoyrh2m.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu... "Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> writes: "Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message snip theology > As to either Marriage Encounter or Retrouville-- both would be non-starters: > the therapy itself is bad enough and she has not looked favorably on even > the idea of a Cursillo weekend, which would be even less
threatening. You didn't answer the question. Did you *ask her*? You seem to be
making a lot of value judgenents on what she would accept and what she would
not accept. You need to start letting her think for herself. What I need to do is stop fearing rasing painful issues. That's what I
need to do.

I think that's the first time I read TED to say.... what I should do.....
Yeah. But this is sort of related to what Tony is saying. The pretexts you present here for not raising painful issues seem to be: - that of protecting your wife - fear of her reaction. The second seems legitimate (although I'd recommend you work on getting over it). The first is too much like not letting her think for herself. Our therapist has never suggested to us that we do either -- I wonder
why that is? Ask him!

I heard a lovely story today on NPR. It was about love.
and I though about Ted.

If you desire to know what a tree (read love) is......
You can look at it and talk about it but to know it you should touch it.
There then would be nothing between you and the tree.
Your naked hand on it's naked bark.
Connected.

But what if you fear to touch
then you can never fully know what a tree is.....
You will only know what it looks like,

Poorly retold by me for the Seeker.

To know love strip away you fear of it Ted.

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c0j9il$189fn3$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c0j8or$17if2l$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:qsKdnaxCfZGg3bXdRVn-sQ@comcast.com... Oops. Pilot error. Trying again. Good. Very Good. Trickle down negative emotions. You say that your wife initially showed you affection? I suppose that has changed according to your
present descriptions. Or rather is your memory of those affections clouded now??? My memory is clouded. Hers appears to be clear. If you are aware of these emotional constraints, how do you deal with
them during your interactions? In other words, when you see yourself "playing the role"
you have been taught, do you make any attempt to step out of the old role and be more
revealing of your newly obtained self knowledge? I'm working on it... getting over the fear of rejection and the
protective instinct are pretty hard -- especially when they get reinforced! It is very hard not treat her as a temperamental child when she acts that way -- but no doubt my actions just perpetuate it. While what bugs me varies from moment to moment, the sort of thing that totally exasperates me is
when we're driving somewhere -- say to an art museum or a big mall -- and we
run into heavy traffic she'll break into tears and say "I want to go home." Or if we're out looking for something at a store and don't find it at the first one when I volunteer to go check another one she'll say in a
resigned (martyr?) tone "don't bother." If there is the slghtest impediment to anything she'll just give up. Ted

Has she given up on you?

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c0bjbq$15pj8j$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... As a matter of fact, I don't. What, then, were you referring to? I
thought Tony and I were having an admittedly not very productive discussion about how one knows whether a particular marriage was one God desires ("what God hath put together") or not.


As I recall, and let me tell you it has been awhile, it is because of the
presence and acceptance of God's servant on earth, the priest. The priest is
conferred with special something in the Taking of Orders. I forget what the
real name is for that sacrament. OY, don't tell my mother!

I just broadened that by implication into the general question of how does one know what's God's will in any given situation where scripture or canon is ambiguous, capable of multiple interpretations, or silent on it. (While I may disagree about all or I suspect even most cases of canon law and similar things, I do not dispute that God's self-revelation continues and I see no reason why we shouldn't try to capture that on paper.) Ted "Tracey" <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote in message news:402800FC.3090001@aol.com...>>I see no evidence presented that God approved of that>>marriage.> IMO, Ted, you're treading on very shaky ground here.Telling what God is up to is almost always on shaky ground. That wasn't what I was referring to and I'm pretty sure you know that.

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:JHaXb.46027$KV5.25849@nwrdny01.gnilink.net... I heard a lovely story today on NPR. It was about love. and I though about Ted. If you desire to know what a tree (read love) is...... You can look at it and talk about it but to know it you should touch it. There then would be nothing between you and the tree. Your naked hand on it's naked bark. Connected. But what if you fear to touch then you can never fully know what a tree is..... You will only know what it looks like, Poorly retold by me for the Seeker. To know love strip away you fear of it Ted.

How? If I could wave a magic wand and have the fear disappear instantly --
I would.

Ted

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:WLaXb.18788$M8.9350@nwrdny02.gnilink.net... Has she given up on you?
Nope. She still thinks I'll come around (-:

(good observation)

But I think she *has* given up on herself -- and I don't know how I can help
with that.
I feel like the teacher or parent of a child who has a terrible self-esteem
problem but
also truly doesn't excel in much, or at least not in anything the child
thinks is important -- you grasp at straws trying to praise them, fully
conscious of how artificial it all is.

Ted

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c0jcmc$1869do$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c8cb5319.0402131233.53fba017@posting.google.c om... Maybe it would help if you and Ted didn't view it as your wife "acceding to your desires." Maybe she is just trying to kick-start herself. Maybe she understands that if she doesn't use it, she'll lose it. An interesting thought -- but how does one get the desire to get the
desire back? Ted

For me it was to come here and get a swift kick. :)

S

"Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote in message
news:-d-dnXoF4p_GprDdRVn-sA@adelphia.com... As I recall, and let me tell you it has been awhile, it is because of the presence and acceptance of God's servant on earth, the priest. The priest
is conferred with special something in the Taking of Orders. I forget what
the real name is for that sacrament. OY, don't tell my mother!
And how many priests have you met that have the gift of discernment -- an
inside track on what God is thinking?

Just because a priest or minister marries a couple doesn't mean that God
intended them to be married. They are all fallible human beings too. (The
only person I recall who has lately claimed to be able to speak infallibly
for God is the Pope, and except for that statement itself he's only done so
once in 130 years.)

Ted

"Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote in message
news:RKydndeoeOI3o7DdRVn-hg@adelphia.com... "Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c0jcmc$1869do$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... An interesting thought -- but how does one get the desire to get the desire back? For me it was to come here and get a swift kick. :)
Where would you suggest my wife go to get such a swift kick? (not here!)

And how would I get her to go there?

Ted

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c0jff2$181rt9$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote in message news:RKydndeoeOI3o7DdRVn-hg@adelphia.com... "Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c0jcmc$1869do$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... An interesting thought -- but how does one get the desire to get the desire back? For me it was to come here and get a swift kick. :) Where would you suggest my wife go to get such a swift kick? (not here!) And how would I get her to go there? Ted

The reality is you cannot change someone else. If you want to come here and
get a swift kick about some thing that YOU can change, be it desire (not a
problem for you) or something else, tat is one thing. But you simplu cannot
make another change.

S

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c0jf7h$17jurh$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote in message news:-d-dnXoF4p_GprDdRVn-sA@adelphia.com... As I recall, and let me tell you it has been awhile, it is because of
the presence and acceptance of God's servant on earth, the priest. The
priest is conferred with special something in the Taking of Orders. I forget what the real name is for that sacrament. OY, don't tell my mother! And how many priests have you met that have the gift of discernment -- an inside track on what God is thinking? Just because a priest or minister marries a couple doesn't mean that God intended them to be married. They are all fallible human beings too.
(The only person I recall who has lately claimed to be able to speak infallibly for God is the Pope, and except for that statement itself he's only done
so once in 130 years.) Ted

I was just parroting the Catholic party line as I beleive that you and Tony
are both Catholics and that is where this conversation sprang. I,
personally, do not think that God gets into these details.

S

"Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> writes:
"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c0jf7h$17jurh$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote in message news:-d-dnXoF4p_GprDdRVn-sA@adelphia.com... As I recall, and let me tell you it has been awhile, it is because of the presence and acceptance of God's servant on earth, the priest. The priest is conferred with special something in the Taking of Orders. I forget what the real name is for that sacrament. OY, don't tell my mother! And how many priests have you met that have the gift of discernment -- an inside track on what God is thinking? Just because a priest or minister marries a couple doesn't mean that God intended them to be married. They are all fallible human beings too. (The only person I recall who has lately claimed to be able to speak infallibly for God is the Pope, and except for that statement itself he's only done so once in 130 years.) Ted I was just parroting the Catholic party line as I beleive that you and Tony are both Catholics and that is where this conversation sprang. I, personally, do not think that God gets into these details.

Correct me if I'm wrong Ted, but I've gotten the distinct impression
that Ted _isn't_ a catholic.

"Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote in message
news:ZOCdnUDKhdVC3rDd4p2dnA@adelphia.com... I was just parroting the Catholic party line as I beleive that you and
Tony are both Catholics and that is where this conversation sprang. I, personally, do not think that God gets into these details.

Why do you think (wrongly, by they way) that I'm a Catholic?

Ted

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c0jh4f$188ujj$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote in message news:ZOCdnUDKhdVC3rDd4p2dnA@adelphia.com... I was just parroting the Catholic party line as I beleive that you and Tony are both Catholics and that is where this conversation sprang. I, personally, do not think that God gets into these details. Why do you think (wrongly, by they way) that I'm a Catholic? Ted

My mistake. I thought you said you were in an earlier post.

S

"Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote in message
news:n4OdneStrtGG1bDdRVn-uw@adelphia.com... My mistake. I thought you said you were in an earlier post.

OK -- I was just wondering if it was something else (not that for the most
part I'd mind -- I"d rather be mistaken for a Catholic than a Southern
Baptist!)

Ted

>But I think she *has* given up on herself --

How do you make the determination that she has 'given up'
on herself, Ted, rather than she's content with herself
the way she is?
and I don't know how I can help with that.

How do you know she needs or wants help?
I feel like the teacher or parent of a child who has aterrible self-esteem problem but also truly doesn't excelin much, or at least not in anything the child thinks isimportant -- you grasp at straws trying to praise them,fully conscious of how artificial it all is.

And, IMO, that's exactly where self-esteem problems come
from. Not the fact that a person doesn't excel at some-
thing, but there's someone there who believes that they
*should* excel at something, *anything*. Self-esteem doesn't
come from being the *best* at something or excelling in a
certain area, it comes from knowing that you're a good,
valuable person *even if you don't excel at anything*.

Tracey

>Self-esteem doesn't come from being the *best* atsomething or excelling in a certain area, it comesfrom knowing that you're a good, valuable person*even if you don't excel at anything*.

And, conversely, a lack of self-esteem doesn't come
from not excelling, it comes from people outside of
us making an issue of the fact that we're not excelling.

IMO, of course.

Tracey

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c0jep9$18d7ga$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:WLaXb.18788$M8.9350@nwrdny02.gnilink.net... Has she given up on you? Nope. She still thinks I'll come around (-: (good observation) But I think she *has* given up on herself -- and I don't know how I can
help with that. I feel like the teacher or parent of a child who has a terrible
self-esteem problem but also truly doesn't excel in much, or at least not in anything the child thinks is important -- you grasp at straws trying to praise them, fully conscious of how artificial it all is. Ted

Do you think that she does not see it as "artificial" as well? Isn't
that demeaning to her?

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c0jf7h$17jurh$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "Stephanie Stowe" <stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote in message news:-d-dnXoF4p_GprDdRVn-sA@adelphia.com... As I recall, and let me tell you it has been awhile, it is because of
the presence and acceptance of God's servant on earth, the priest. The
priest is conferred with special something in the Taking of Orders. I forget what the real name is for that sacrament. OY, don't tell my mother! And how many priests have you met that have the gift of discernment -- an inside track on what God is thinking?

My "God" is thinking everything. Everyone knows what God is thinking.
They simply know their own part.

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c0jd0t$171pou$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... I shoulda put a smiley on that... it was more a question of virtual blue balls than real ones -- how many weeks or months of just cudding can I
take (self-pleasuring or not) without going bonkers?

Pretend like she just had your baby and you can't touch her down there for 6
weeks. Most husbands manage to get through that period one way or another
without going completely bonkers.

In article <gamdnc34MeYI3rDdRVn-jA@adelphia.com>, Stephanie Stowe
<stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote:
The reality is you cannot change someone else. If you want to come here and get a swift kick about some thing that YOU can change, be it desire (not a problem for you) or something else, tat is one thing. But you simplu cannot make another change.

Then why did you bring up the subject if there's nothing I can do about
it?

Ted

In article <gamdnc34MeYI3rDdRVn-jA@adelphia.com>, Stephanie Stowe
<stowe@whackthisvsac.org> wrote:
The reality is you cannot change someone else. If you want to come here and get a swift kick about some thing that YOU can change, be it desire (not a problem for you) or something else, tat is one thing. But you simplu cannot make another change.

(I hope my attempt to cancel the reply I made to this that could be
read wrong was successful.)

If there is nothing I can do to help my wife desire to have her desire
back, why did you mention what helped you bring yours back?

Ted

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c0je5h$17173s$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:JHaXb.46027$KV5.25849@nwrdny01.gnilink.net... I heard a lovely story today on NPR. It was about love. and I though about Ted. If you desire to know what a tree (read love) is...... You can look at it and talk about it but to know it you should touch it. There then would be nothing between you and the tree. Your naked hand on it's naked bark. Connected. But what if you fear to touch then you can never fully know what a tree is..... You will only know what it looks like, Poorly retold by me for the Seeker. To know love strip away you fear of it Ted. How? If I could wave a magic wand and have the fear disappear
instantly -- I would. Ted

Do what you are doing. You ARE doing what you need to do.
It's work. I see breakthrough glimpses in your words. I think
you are close to understanding more and more of the why and
how.

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c0jep9$18d7ga$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:WLaXb.18788$M8.9350@nwrdny02.gnilink.net...

Snip
I feel like the teacher or parent of a child who has a terrible
self-esteem problem but also truly doesn't excel in much, or at least not in anything the child thinks is important -- you grasp at straws trying to praise them, fully conscious of how artificial it all is. Ted

Want to try an thought experiment in human relationship dynamics?

Imagine for a moment that what you want is a woman as a wife and
not a girl.

Might it be that you have created a "role" for your
wife and molded the person you married to fit that "role".

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<c0jcmc$1869do$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de>... "shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c8cb5319.0402131233.53fba017@posting.google.c om... Maybe it would help if you and Ted didn't view it as your wife "acceding to your desires." Maybe she is just trying to kick-start herself. Maybe she understands that if she doesn't use it, she'll lose it. An interesting thought -- but how does one get the desire to get the desire back? Ted

Re-read what I wrote. If she didn't say no and pulled you back over to
her, that may indicate that she already *has* the desire to get the
desire back.

jen

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:<R6udneuAsKJcB7DdRVn-iQ@comcast.com>... "Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c0jep9$18d7ga$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:WLaXb.18788$M8.9350@nwrdny02.gnilink.net... Snip I feel like the teacher or parent of a child who has a terrible self-esteem problem but also truly doesn't excel in much, or at least not in anything the child thinks is important -- you grasp at straws trying to praise them, fully conscious of how artificial it all is. Ted Want to try an thought experiment in human relationship dynamics? Imagine for a moment that what you want is a woman as a wife and not a girl. Might it be that you have created a "role" for your wife and molded the person you married to fit that "role".

Bingo.

jen

shinypenny wrote: "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:<R6udneuAsKJcB7DdRVn-iQ@comcast.com>... "Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c0jep9$18d7ga$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:WLaXb.18788$M8.9350@nwrdny02.gnilink.net... Snip I feel like the teacher or parent of a child who has a terrible self-esteem problem but also truly doesn't excel in much, or at least not in anything the child thinks is important -- you grasp at straws trying to praise them, fully conscious of how artificial it all is. Ted Want to try an thought experiment in human relationship dynamics? Imagine for a moment that what you want is a woman as a wife and not a girl. Might it be that you have created a "role" for your wife and molded the person you married to fit that "role". Bingo. jen

If that is true, that is sad. :-(

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0402140616.3d2805ca@posting.google.c om... Re-read what I wrote. If she didn't say no and pulled you back over to her, that may indicate that she already *has* the desire to get the desire back.
Nah. It's one of the things we sort of worked out early in counselling --
that since I was taking her non-interest as outright rejection she needs to
make some positive sign that it's OK. That's not the same thing as desire.

Ted

"Jingle Bells" <jinglebells5555@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f804e152.0402131524.3d50d832@posting.google.c om... There's no way for me to know, and I'm not trying to be insulting but is there any chance that your wife might actually like French kissing if it were done a certain way, -different from the way you typically do it? Techniques vary.

Seeing as neither one of us has ever done it there is no way of knowing.

Ted

"Jingle Bells" <jinglebells5555@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f804e152.0402131753.6070cb8b@posting.google.c om... My wife just had a baby a few months ago and I know it's going to be a few more months before I see her in any lingerie. The fact that I would start drooling uncontrollably does not compensate enough for how she feels about her body right now. It's too bad, but that's how it is.

But that's where the problem is -- my wife doesn't *want* me to drool --
uncontrollably or not!

Ted

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:R6udneuAsKJcB7DdRVn-iQ@comcast.com... Want to try an thought experiment in human relationship dynamics? Imagine for a moment that what you want is a woman as a wife and not a girl. Might it be that you have created a "role" for your wife and molded the person you married to fit that "role".

I've pondered that (and Jen's and Bill's responses). I think it's a
meaningless question -- what those words would have meant to me in the early
70's are probably a lot different than what they mean now. How I viewed
the way men and women interacted then is a lot different from how I view it
now. We both entered the marriage with confused views as to what a
marriage was all about -- both views from the society at that time *and* the
views picked up from our respective families. I don't think we yet know
how all of that has played out in getting us to where we are today. But I
do admit that the image I grew up with was that women were pretty much
helpless -- and it was the job of men to protect them because of that. But
I really can't go back in time and sort out what my thoughts and motivations
and desires then were -- it's all too long ago.

Ted

"Tracey" <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote in message
news:402D4A07.9040900@aol.com...But I think she *has* given up on herself -- How do you make the determination that she has 'given up' on herself, Ted, rather than she's content with herself the way she is?
Occasional comments, responses to events and questions.
and I don't know how I can help with that. How do you know she needs or wants help?
Obviously she doesn't *want* help. Need? You all have read some of my
descriptions of her daily routine -- is that something that needs help or
not?

Ted

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:dpcXb.42637$IF1.20406@nwrdny03.gnilink.net... Do you think that she does not see it as "artificial" as well? Isn't that demeaning to her?
That's one reason I find it so hard to do -- and yet it seems to be one of
the few things I can do.

Ted

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:FLOdndQlaMinBbDdRVn-sA@comcast.com... Do what you are doing. You ARE doing what you need to do. It's work. I see breakthrough glimpses in your words. I think you are close to understanding more and more of the why and how.
Thanks

Ted

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c0r33q$19u9ca$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:R6udneuAsKJcB7DdRVn-iQ@comcast.com... Want to try an thought experiment in human relationship dynamics? Imagine for a moment that what you want is a woman as a wife and not a girl. Might it be that you have created a "role" for your wife and molded the person you married to fit that "role". I've pondered that (and Jen's and Bill's responses). I think it's a meaningless question -- what those words would have meant to me in the
early 70's are probably a lot different than what they mean now. How I viewed the way men and women interacted then is a lot different from how I view
it now. We both entered the marriage with confused views as to what a marriage was all about -- both views from the society at that time *and*
the views picked up from our respective families. I don't think we yet know how all of that has played out in getting us to where we are today. But
I do admit that the image I grew up with was that women were pretty much helpless -- and it was the job of men to protect them because of that.
But I really can't go back in time and sort out what my thoughts and
motivations and desires then were -- it's all too long ago. Ted

Ted, this is a thought experiment, not a question.

It does not matter that you can't go back in time to correct previous mind
sets
and the resultant effect on your relationship.

What matters is your recognition of the relationship between your actions
and
your present situation.

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:A%9Yb.51177$IF1.11571@nwrdny03.gnilink.net... Ted, this is a thought experiment, not a question. It does not matter that you can't go back in time to correct previous mind sets and the resultant effect on your relationship. What matters is your recognition of the relationship between your actions and your present situation.

I guess what threw me was the way you started: "Imagine for a moment that
what you want is a woman as a wife and not a girl." One usually says
"imagine" about things that aren't true at that moment or aren't true at
all -- as far as I know that *is* what I want, but not what I often think I
have, so I had to step back and see what you might be driving at.

Now, as to whether I *treat* her mostly as a woman rather than mostly as a
girl -- that's a different matter. I admit I don't -- now is that because
that's how she asks to be treated, or because I don't know anything
different? And does what I do now depend on the answer to that? I don't
know...

Ted

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c0raut$1ac05o$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:A%9Yb.51177$IF1.11571@nwrdny03.gnilink.net... Ted, this is a thought experiment, not a question. It does not matter that you can't go back in time to correct previous
mind sets and the resultant effect on your relationship. What matters is your recognition of the relationship between your
actions and your present situation. I guess what threw me was the way you started: "Imagine for a moment that what you want is a woman as a wife and not a girl." One usually says "imagine" about things that aren't true at that moment or aren't true at all -- as far as I know that *is* what I want, but not what I often think
I have, so I had to step back and see what you might be driving at. Now, as to whether I *treat* her mostly as a woman rather than mostly as a girl -- that's a different matter. I admit I don't -- now is that
because that's how she asks to be treated, or because I don't know anything different? And does what I do now depend on the answer to that? I don't know... Ted

Take a guess. There is no correct answer.

Have you ever asked her what she thinks about herself in this regard?

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:%QbYb.53576$KV5.33059@nwrdny01.gnilink.net... Have you ever asked her what she thinks about herself in this regard?
What she says (or thinks) and how she acts are two different things. Which
do I pay attention to? She says she doesn't want to be protected and yet
is very pleased that she has a husband who pumps gas for her or makes the
phone call to take the dog to the groomers -- an appointment that is
(usually) hers to carry out.

Ted

"Jingle Bells" <jinglebells5555@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f804e152.0402162000.158609d@posting.google.co m... "Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<c0r17n$19vb45$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de>... Since she's a roundabout person -- directness is too intrusive -- that's
the only way I can. Our therapist has pointed out that one of our
difficulties is that we know each other entirely *too* well. Ted I seem to recall a certain reaction she had to catching you with a Penthouse that left you rather speechless. She's quite capable of surprising you from what I can tell.

Those aren't incompatible comments -- there are parts of both of us that
will surprise the other -- but the parts we know are the ones that keep us
stuck because we know all the boundaries we dare not cross.

Ted

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c0ticn$1acp55$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:%QbYb.53576$KV5.33059@nwrdny01.gnilink.net... Have you ever asked her what she thinks about herself in this regard? What she says (or thinks) and how she acts are two different things.
Which do I pay attention to? She says she doesn't want to be protected and yet is very pleased that she has a husband who pumps gas for her or makes the phone call to take the dog to the groomers -- an appointment that is (usually) hers to carry out. Ted

The question was.....

have you ever asked her if she wanted to be considered a woman or a girl?

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:OosYb.56077$KV5.41254@nwrdny01.gnilink.net... The question was..... have you ever asked her if she wanted to be considered a woman or a girl?
One doesn't ask that sort of question directly of her -- it would be
considered intrusive. One has to deduce the answer from other questions and
behavior.

Ted

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c0tjn8$1bj0uf$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... I suppose in some ways going to joint marriage counselling was a mistake -- were we not going I could bury my needs and continue pretending and hide from her what's going on inside me and let her be
happy because for the most part it appears I do satisfy her needs. But this way it has to all come out and that's not going to be easy.

I wonder if on some level she recognized this sooner than you did, and that
is one reason why she's been resistant to it....

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<c0j8c8$16oie3$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de>... "Jingle Bells" <jinglebells5555@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:f804e152.0402122050.180532a1@posting.google.c om... If getting aroused is working against you then maybe after you've fed the animals and before you get back into bed you should, umm, - feed your own animal. You may have better luck sticking to just cuddling. Won't work. My refactory period is probably less than a half hour. And, besides, there isn't any free porn on TV at that hour of the day! Ted

Ted, as someone who's spent some time on nude beaches whilst in his
20's, I can tell you there are ways to kill or at least hide an
erection if duty requires it, and you can't swing a dead mouse without
hitting some porn on the Internet ;-)

Why is it that you can be quite thorough when comes to finding reasons
why something won't work and show so little imagination when it comes
to solving these problems?

I sometimes wonder if your heart just isn't in this. I'd certainly
understand if it wasn't. It's going to be a long road with your wife
with no guarantee that things are going to improve to the degree that
you're hoping. It seems to me though that if you are going to head
down this road, you should do so with a bit more umm... gusto. Maybe
you're just a bit worn down now.

In article <1035eukaglfdkc7@corp.supernews.com>, Joy
<joydoesntlikespam@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote:
"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c0tjn8$1bj0uf$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... I suppose in some ways going to joint marriage counselling was a mistake -- were we not going I could bury my needs and continue pretending and hide from her what's going on inside me and let her be happy because for the most part it appears I do satisfy her needs. But this way it has to all come out and that's not going to be easy. I wonder if on some level she recognized this sooner than you did, and that is one reason why she's been resistant to it....

Oh, I knew that long before we started. In some ways it's why I
started counselling six months before I asked her to join me. Several
times I've written here about her apparently endorsing response to the
Arlo & Janis cartoon whose final panel says "there are some things a
wife does not want to know about her husband." At the time I breathed
a sigh of relief -- for I thought it took me off the hook. But before
long I realized what the true impact was -- it wasn't that I didn't
*have* to tell her my secrets -- but that I *couldn''t*.

Ted

In article <f804e152.0402172013.70e0e79e@posting.google.com>, Jingle
Bells <jinglebells5555@yahoo.com> wrote:
Why is it that you can be quite thorough when comes to finding reasons why something won't work and show so little imagination when it comes to solving these problems?

Why is it that your approach to hearing about a difficult situation is
to label it as a problem and propose a solution?

Ted

Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> writes:
a sigh of relief -- for I thought it took me off the hook. But before long I realized what the true impact was -- it wasn't that I didn't *have* to tell her my secrets -- but that I *couldn''t*.

Actually it is neither. You probably _do_ have to, and you certainly
_can_; but she doesn't _want_ you to.

Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> writes:
In article <f804e152.0402172013.70e0e79e@posting.google.com>, Jingle Bells <jinglebells5555@yahoo.com> wrote: Why is it that you can be quite thorough when comes to finding reasons why something won't work and show so little imagination when it comes to solving these problems? Why is it that your approach to hearing about a difficult situation is to label it as a problem and propose a solution?

No doubt it is his Kiersey temperment!

Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<4bCYb.54474$_44.150259@attbi_s52>... Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> writes: In article <f804e152.0402172013.70e0e79e@posting.google.com>, Jingle Bells <jinglebells5555@yahoo.com> wrote: Why is it that you can be quite thorough when comes to finding reasons why something won't work and show so little imagination when it comes to solving these problems? Why is it that your approach to hearing about a difficult situation is to label it as a problem and propose a solution? No doubt it is his Kiersey temperment!

Some might say that it's a characteristic associated with being a male
in this culture. ;-)

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4bCYb.54474$_44.150259@attbi_s52... Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> writes: In article <f804e152.0402172013.70e0e79e@posting.google.com>, Jingle Bells <jinglebells5555@yahoo.com> wrote: Why is it that you can be quite thorough when comes to finding reasons why something won't work and show so little imagination when it comes to solving these problems? Why is it that your approach to hearing about a difficult situation is to label it as a problem and propose a solution? No doubt it is his Kiersey temperment!

LOL! I admit that was kind of a knee-jerk response on my part. But
someone worrying about whether I can hide an erection does not seem terribly
relevant to the real issues!

Ted

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:raCYb.55448$jk2.232367@attbi_s53... Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> writes: a sigh of relief -- for I thought it took me off the hook. But before long I realized what the true impact was -- it wasn't that I didn't *have* to tell her my secrets -- but that I *couldn''t*. Actually it is neither. You probably _do_ have to, and you certainly _can_; but she doesn't _want_ you to.

But what is that reflective of? At the time I wouldn't have been able to
understand it this way, but I do now partly understand to mean that she does
not welcome that level of intimacy. And unwelcome intimacy of any kind is
wrong.

Ted

Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message news:<170220042248342633%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com>... In article <f804e152.0402172013.70e0e79e@posting.google.com>, Jingle Bells <jinglebells5555@yahoo.com> wrote: Why is it that you can be quite thorough when comes to finding reasons why something won't work and show so little imagination when it comes to solving these problems? Why is it that your approach to hearing about a difficult situation is to label it as a problem and propose a solution? Ted

My apologies Ted. I assumed that solutions to your difficult
situation(s) is what you came here for.

I have learned from my wife that sometimes all she wants me to do is
listen and be supportive, -that talking about it is enough to make her
feel better and that a fix isn't what she's after.

She's learned that I have a limited capacity to just listen to
descriptions of the same difficult situation over and over without
suggesting ways to change that situation.

I'm not unsympathetic to your situation, - I've experienced it to a
smaller degree, but if a sympathetic ear is all you're looking for,
you should skip my posts.

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> writes:
"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:raCYb.55448$jk2.232367@attbi_s53... Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> writes: a sigh of relief -- for I thought it took me off the hook. But before long I realized what the true impact was -- it wasn't that I didn't *have* to tell her my secrets -- but that I *couldn''t*. Actually it is neither. You probably _do_ have to, and you certainly _can_; but she doesn't _want_ you to. But what is that reflective of? At the time I wouldn't have been able to understand it this way, but I do now partly understand to mean that she does not welcome that level of intimacy. And unwelcome intimacy of any kind is wrong.

I don't know. The way I see it, you want a higher level of intimacy
than your wife _seems_ to want. Your job is to find a way to start
approaching that with her. Maybe she will actually appreciate it.
Maybe she won't. By you being the gatekeeper for what she knows, you
maintain control over the situation.

Apparently this has grown comfortable enough to both of you so that
for both of you, fear of upsetting the applecart trumps hope for
something better.

As far as unwelcome intimacy being "wrong," well; that is related to
your own restrictions about the fact that you are "supposed" to be
married to this woman. If you weren't sure of that, you could really
experiment about the amount of intimacy desired by each of you, and if
you determined you were incompatible, you could go your separate ways.

"Jingle Bells" <jinglebells5555@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f804e152.0402171459.2abbe58e@posting.google.c om... And this where I think your relationship with the Pharmacist is destructive. You can't help but compare your wife to her and the Pharmacist is only part real. A good part of the Pharmacist is a fantasy woman. You only spend a few hours with her a month. It's easy for your mind to make her almost anything you want her to be. Any faults or shortcomings she has have little or no impact on you.
Sure there is a lot of "fantasy" there -- dreams of things that could be
but almost certainly won't be. That's not what's important in the
friendship for me, although I don't deny it adds something to it. My wife
*has* to endure my company; even if grudgingly, she *has* to accept me, as
I her. "The pharmacist" doesn't have to do anything with respect to me --
any time we spend together and what we do with that time is her free choice.
(She is, for instance, perfectly capable of driving to the book group by
herself, for she has done so several times -- yet she chooses from time to
time to ride with me or let me ride with her.) Given what of me she's
experienced, some of which has been pretty deep, that she is willing to
continue be a friend is very, very important to me. When I am with her I
feel accepted by a woman of her own free will -- and I need that assurance
that I'm OK to carry through with discovering how to be accepted by my wife
for who I am rather than who she thinks I am. While other people know much
more of the "real" me than the pharmacist does, all are men and all are in
a formal therapeutic relationship of one kind or anyother with me. But she
*does* know much more of me than my wife does.

And she hugs real nice.

Ted

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> writes:
"Jingle Bells" <jinglebells5555@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:f804e152.0402171459.2abbe58e@posting.google.c om... And this where I think your relationship with the Pharmacist is destructive. You can't help but compare your wife to her and the Pharmacist is only part real. A good part of the Pharmacist is a fantasy woman. You only spend a few hours with her a month. It's easy for your mind to make her almost anything you want her to be. Any faults or shortcomings she has have little or no impact on you. Sure there is a lot of "fantasy" there -- dreams of things that could be but almost certainly won't be. That's not what's important in the friendship for me, although I don't deny it adds something to it. My wife *has* to endure my company; even if grudgingly, she *has* to accept me, as I her. "The pharmacist" doesn't have to do anything with respect to me -- any time we spend together and what we do with that time is her free choice. (She is, for instance, perfectly capable of driving to the book group by herself, for she has done so several times -- yet she chooses from time to time to ride with me or let me ride with her.) Given what of me she's experienced, some of which has been pretty deep, that she is willing to continue be a friend is very, very important to me. When I am with her I feel accepted by a woman of her own free will -- and I need that assurance that I'm OK to carry through with discovering how to be accepted by my wife for who I am rather than who she thinks I am. While other people know much more of the "real" me than the pharmacist does, all are men and all are in a formal therapeutic relationship of one kind or anyother with me. But she *does* know much more of me than my wife does.

The damaging part isn't the fantasy. The damaging part is the
comparing your wife.

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fk4qtonndp.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu... The damaging part isn't the fantasy. The damaging part is the comparing your wife.

So I'm not supposed to want to feel accepted by my wife? Not to want *her*
to hug me, rather than just me hug her? Not to want her to be emotionally
intimate with me? Is wanting what I don't have damaging, especially given
that there's nothing intrinsically wrong with me preventing it? Yes, I
suppose that had I never felt myself acceptable, never felt myself
unlovable, never felt myself desirable -- as I used to -- things might be
better off: then I wouldn't have aimed for the impossible.

Ted

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> writes:
"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:fk4qtonndp.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu... The damaging part isn't the fantasy. The damaging part is the comparing your wife. So I'm not supposed to want to feel accepted by my wife? Not to want *her* to hug me, rather than just me hug her? Not to want her to be emotionally intimate with me? Is wanting what I don't have damaging, especially given that there's nothing intrinsically wrong with me preventing it? Yes, I suppose that had I never felt myself acceptable, never felt myself unlovable, never felt myself desirable -- as I used to -- things might be better off: then I wouldn't have aimed for the impossible.

I'm assuming these are all rhetorical questions since they seem to
have nothing to do with the point I'm making. Correct me if I'm wrong
and I'll try to answer.

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Z7MYb.352147$na.520816@attbi_s04... As far as unwelcome intimacy being "wrong," well; that is related to your own restrictions about the fact that you are "supposed" to be married to this woman. If you weren't sure of that, you could really experiment about the amount of intimacy desired by each of you, and if you determined you were incompatible, you could go your separate ways.

I think Schnarch would disagree with you -- it is because we are bound
together that all these issues have come to a head. The only way they
wouldn't become inevitable is if we *didn't* care a lot about each other, if
running away from them were an option. Even Hendrix has one exercise where
one of the groundrules is "no exit" -- you cannot bail out. If you go into
trying to deal with these issues with running away from them as being an
option I think you approach it all completely differently than if you know
that barring some unforseen disaster your spouse is always going to be
there facing you across whatever separates you.

Ted

"Jingle Bells" <jinglebells5555@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f804e152.0402181318.da1f9e4@posting.google.co m... I think you may be looking for a dramtic change to go along with your dramatic story. Unfortuneatly, change may come slow, be limited in scope and achieved mostly through an accumulation of small gestures, not a one or two large ones.

I am *very* impressed -- I didn't know anyone was paying that close
attention.
But you forgot one thing -- I've been consciously trying to deal with and
improve the situation for over seven years now -- that's almost a fifth of
the time we've been married. Should not there have been more progress?
(the cuddling stuff is nothing new -- I've probably been trying to do that
for six months if not a year.)

Ted

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<c10dim$1d23ke$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de>... "Jingle Bells" <jinglebells5555@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:f804e152.0402171459.2abbe58e@posting.google.c om... And this where I think your relationship with the Pharmacist is destructive. You can't help but compare your wife to her and the Pharmacist is only part real. A good part of the Pharmacist is a fantasy woman. You only spend a few hours with her a month. It's easy for your mind to make her almost anything you want her to be. Any faults or shortcomings she has have little or no impact on you. Sure there is a lot of "fantasy" there -- dreams of things that could be but almost certainly won't be. That's not what's important in the friendship for me, although I don't deny it adds something to it.
My wife *has* to endure my company; even if grudgingly, she *has* to accept me, as I her. "The pharmacist" doesn't have to do anything with respect to me -- any time we spend together and what we do with that time is her free choice. (She is, for instance, perfectly capable of driving to the book group by herself, for she has done so several times -- yet she chooses from time to time to ride with me or let me ride with her.) Given what of me she's experienced, some of which has been pretty deep, that she is willing to continue be a friend is very, very important to me. When I am with her I feel accepted by a woman of her own free will -- and I need that assurance that I'm OK to carry through with discovering how to be accepted by my wife for who I am rather than who she thinks I am. While other people know much more of the "real" me than the pharmacist does, all are men and all are in a formal therapeutic relationship of one kind or anyother with me. But she *does* know much more of me than my wife does.

Ted, your wife does far more than just endure your company. She cares
enough about you and your marriage to go to counseling, - something
she detests. I would be very suprised to find that you are anywhere
near as important to the pharmacist as even the real you would be to
your wife.

That a woman is happy to spend a few hours with you a month is nice
but in and of itself doesn't really say much about your desireability
to her as a man, -that one is willing to try and change to make
herself more appealing to you means a lot more.
And she hugs real nice. Ted

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<c10lq0$1crbiv$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de>... "Jingle Bells" <jinglebells5555@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:f804e152.0402181318.da1f9e4@posting.google.co m... I think you may be looking for a dramtic change to go along with your dramatic story. Unfortuneatly, change may come slow, be limited in scope and achieved mostly through an accumulation of small gestures, not a one or two large ones. I am *very* impressed -- I didn't know anyone was paying that close attention. But you forgot one thing -- I've been consciously trying to deal with and improve the situation for over seven years now -- that's almost a fifth of the time we've been married. Should not there have been more progress? (the cuddling stuff is nothing new -- I've probably been trying to do that for six months if not a year.) Ted

How much of that 7 years has been spent reading, discussing, and
analyzing vs actually changing how you behave towards your wife?
Maybe you've changed a lot, but of course all I see is the analyzing
and discussing. I know you did take one major step by getting your
wife into counseling with you, but do you go frequently enough to
really get much out of it?

Here's a little quiz for your wife. In the last 7 years, what has Ted
changed about himself that has made you happier and your marriage
stronger?

What do you mean when you say you've been trying to do the cuddling
stuff for six months now? It seems to be something you both enjoy,
therefore it should be a relatively easy thing to make a more regular
part of your marriage.

Jingle Bells <jinglebells5555@yahoo.com> wrote:
Ted, your wife does far more than just endure your company. She cares enough about you and your marriage to go to counseling, - something she detests. I would be very suprised to find that you are anywhere near as important to the pharmacist as even the real you would be to your wife. That a woman is happy to spend a few hours with you a month is nice but in and of itself doesn't really say much about your desireability to her as a man, -that one is willing to try and change to make herself more appealing to you means a lot more.

You are fighting the good fight here, Jingle. I don't think Ted will
"get it" - but maybe others reading what you write will.

"Jingle Bells" <jinglebells5555@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f804e152.0402190010.1b62ccda@posting.google.c om... That a woman is happy to spend a few hours with you a month is nice but in and of itself doesn't really say much about your desireability to her as a man, -that one is willing to try and change to make herself more appealing to you means a lot more.
Yes, that indeed would mean a lot more.
But she isn't going to therapy to change, to make herself more appealing.
She's going out of fear.

Ted

Seeker wrote:
Yes, that indeed would mean a lot more. But she isn't going to therapy to change, to make herself more appealing. She's going out of fear.


Have you ever noticed how often you 'Yes, but...' people?

Tracey

"Jingle Bells" <jinglebells5555@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f804e152.0402190051.3a70d6d3@posting.google.c om... How much of that 7 years has been spent reading, discussing, and analyzing vs actually changing how you behave towards your wife? Maybe you've changed a lot, but of course all I see is the analyzing and discussing. I know you did take one major step by getting your wife into counseling with you, but do you go frequently enough to really get much out of it?
We go as frequently as she can tolerate -- every two or three weeks; sure
I'd rather it were every week but getting her to go every other week is hard
enough as it is.

I guess the major change I've done consciously is to do everything she asks
me to do promptly and without questioning -- except as necessary to make
sure I know exactly what she's asking and when it needs to be done by. I
am trying to spend more time with her although that's hard to see results
from: she'll remember the times I'm not spending time with her and forget
the times I am. (love busters are much stronger than love deposits, it
would seem.) If I'm going to be late (which is rare) I call to let her
know. I'll surprise her with flowers now and then (that's tricky -- if I
do it too much or buy something too expensive she'll complain that I'm
spending too much.) I deliberately make sure (we make sure) we don't miss
our goodbye hug in the morning when I go to work. I call her every day at
lunchtime and we talk for a half-hour -- I'm pretty sure I didn't used to do
that.
Here's a little quiz for your wife. In the last 7 years, what has Ted changed about himself that has made you happier and your marriage stronger?
That's a catch-22 question. Until I asked her to go to counselling she was
perfectly content with the marriage as it was so there wasn't anything
obvious to be done (at one point I even asked her if there was anything I
could or needed to do to and she couldn't think of anything.) Now of course
the *only* thing she says that will make her happier, and even that's
problematical, is if we stop going to counselling.
What do you mean when you say you've been trying to do the cuddling stuff for six months now? It seems to be something you both enjoy, therefore it should be a relatively easy thing to make a more regular part of your marriage.

All I meant was to dispell the impression it was something new and therefore
indicative of some new hope.

Ted

"Tracey" <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote in message
news:4034FD54.2090405@aol.com... Seeker wrote: Yes, that indeed would mean a lot more. But she isn't going to therapy to change, to make herself more
appealing. She's going out of fear. Have you ever noticed how often you 'Yes, but...' people?
How would you have preferred I worded that? The post I was responding to
(one of Jingle's, I think) implied she was going to therapy because she was
willing to change.
If she were things would be different. She isn't so they aren't.

Ted

"Jingle Bells" <jinglebells5555@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f804e152.0402190129.7e002a22@posting.google.c om... It's loosly based on a true story. I'll let you know when the screen play is complete.
It'll never be complete -- all we can do is watch one act unfold after
another.

How much of the play we author and how much is out of our hands is an
interesting speculation.

Ted

Seeker wrote:
How would you have preferred I worded that? The post I was responding to (one of Jingle's, I think) implied she was going to therapy because she was willing to change. If she were things would be different. She isn't so they aren't.

One, I'm not just referring to this particular post. You do it
frequently, consistently, constantly (pick your favorite.)

Two, in this *particular* instance, if you truly believe she is not
willing to change, then why are you going through with the counseling?
What a waste of time and money this is then, not to mention subjecting
your wife to the torture of going. What is your goal? And don't say
that you have hope that it will make a difference in your marriage
because you don't believe your wife is willing to change. It has no
hope of making a difference in your marriage if she isn't willing.

Three, your whole attitude towards your marriage and your wife is your
biggest problem, IMO, and, from what you've written over the years, the
*only* area that you have the slightest hope of making changes in.

And, four, when someone consistantly responds to suggestions on how to
better confront or solve or view problems in their lives with resis-
tance and 'Yes, but..'s and 'That won't work because...' without even
*trying*, it's usually indicative that they don't *really* want to
solve the problem. They just want to *look* like they want to.

Tracey

"Tracey" <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote in message
news:403514A1.2020709@aol.com... Two, in this *particular* instance, if you truly believe she is not willing to change, then why are you going through with the counseling? What a waste of time and money this is then, not to mention subjecting your wife to the torture of going. What is your goal? And don't say that you have hope that it will make a difference in your marriage because you don't believe your wife is willing to change. It has no hope of making a difference in your marriage if she isn't willing.
How does that square with the people who say there is no need for my wife
to change -- that I'm the only one who needs to change, that she has no need
to be willing?

But, apart from that, I have some hope that through the process we *both*
will become willing to make changes. I have no certainty that is the case,
but I do have hope. While perhaps I was a little impatient, I saw little
sign that just my going alone was going to accomplish anything -- if
anything, it was making things worse.
Three, your whole attitude towards your marriage and your wife is your biggest problem, IMO, and, from what you've written over the years, the *only* area that you have the slightest hope of making changes in.

And what do you think my attitude towards my marriage and my wife is? (OK,
you don't need to answer the second part -- I think several people have
expressed that in similar terms and I don't need to be reminded of it. I am
all too well aware of it.)

Ted

Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote in message news:<403514A1.2020709@aol.com>... Seeker wrote:

<snip>
And, four, when someone consistantly responds to suggestions on how to better confront or solve or view problems in their lives with resis- tance and 'Yes, but..'s and 'That won't work because...' without even *trying*, it's usually indicative that they don't *really* want to solve the problem. They just want to *look* like they want to. Tracey

Well said.

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<c12un6$1dt7e0$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de>... "Jingle Bells" <jinglebells5555@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:f804e152.0402190051.3a70d6d3@posting.google.c om... How much of that 7 years has been spent reading, discussing, and analyzing vs actually changing how you behave towards your wife? Maybe you've changed a lot, but of course all I see is the analyzing and discussing. I know you did take one major step by getting your wife into counseling with you, but do you go frequently enough to really get much out of it? We go as frequently as she can tolerate -- every two or three weeks; sure I'd rather it were every week but getting her to go every other week is hard enough as it is. I guess the major change I've done consciously is to do everything she asks me to do promptly and without questioning -- except as necessary to make sure I know exactly what she's asking and when it needs to be done by. I am trying to spend more time with her although that's hard to see results from: she'll remember the times I'm not spending time with her and forget the times I am. (love busters are much stronger than love deposits, it would seem.) If I'm going to be late (which is rare) I call to let her know. I'll surprise her with flowers now and then (that's tricky -- if I do it too much or buy something too expensive she'll complain that I'm spending too much.) I deliberately make sure (we make sure) we don't miss our goodbye hug in the morning when I go to work. I call her every day at lunchtime and we talk for a half-hour -- I'm pretty sure I didn't used to do that.

I'm glad that you're doing those things and I hope it helps. Do you
hug when you first see each other in the evening?

I did notice that she wants you to spend more time with her. That's
not my definition of "enduring" your presence.
Here's a little quiz for your wife. In the last 7 years, what has Ted changed about himself that has made you happier and your marriage stronger? That's a catch-22 question. Until I asked her to go to counselling she was perfectly content with the marriage as it was so there wasn't anything obvious to be done (at one point I even asked her if there was anything I could or needed to do to and she couldn't think of anything.) Now of course the *only* thing she says that will make her happier, and even that's problematical, is if we stop going to counselling. What do you mean when you say you've been trying to do the cuddling stuff for six months now? It seems to be something you both enjoy, therefore it should be a relatively easy thing to make a more regular part of your marriage. All I meant was to dispell the impression it was something new and therefore indicative of some new hope. Ted

Seeker wrote: "Tracey" <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote in message news:403514A1.2020709@aol.com...Two, in this *particular* instance, if you truly believe she is notwilling to change, then why are you going through with the counseling?What a waste of time and money this is then, not to mention subjectingyour wife to the torture of going. What is your goal? And don't saythat you have hope that it will make a difference in your marriagebecause you don't believe your wife is willing to change. It has nohope of making a difference in your marriage if she isn't willing. How does that square with the people who say there is no need for my wife to change -- that I'm the only one who needs to change, that she has no need to be willing?

I don't feel the need to 'square' with anyone's opinion other than my
own. And I don't think I've ever said there is no 'need' for your wife
to change. That's not my decision to make. It's your wife's. It seems
*she* doesn't feel the need to change.
But, apart from that, I have some hope that through the process we *both* will become willing to make changes. I have no certainty that is the case, but I do have hope. While perhaps I was a little impatient, I saw little sign that just my going alone was going to accomplish anything -- if anything, it was making things worse.

Well, of course it was because you weren't trying to change yourself,
you were just convincing yourself that *she* needed to change.
Three, your whole attitude towards your marriage and your wife is yourbiggest problem, IMO, and, from what you've written over the years, the*only* area that you have the slightest hope of making changes in. And what do you think my attitude towards my marriage and my wife is? (OK, you don't need to answer the second part -- I think several people have expressed that in similar terms and I don't need to be reminded of it. I am all too well aware of it.)

I am going to answer it, but not in a way that addresses you and your
feelings/attitudes. When my husband had his affair, I put forth a pro-
posal that we spend 18 months reading books about relationships, going
to counseling and doing our own thinking about ourselves and our rela-
tionship before we decided if we would divorce or not. He agreed. He
then spent the next 9 or 10 months being pissed off at me. He, like
you, knew that he wasn't going to file for a divorce at that time. That
he *had* to stay married. But his attitude towards me and our marriage
was not one of 'Well, I'm here, I had better try and make the best of
it' but instead it was 'Well, I'm here. That's what *you* wanted. Deal
with it.' And after 9 months of it, I had had enough and told him that
he had *one month* to change his attitude or I was leaving, with no
possibility of reconciling. That if I walked out the door, it would be
too late. And in one month, he was able to change his attitude towards
me and our marriage enough that I felt I could handle the next 8 months.
And by the time the 8 months was up, I had to remind him that it was
time for him and I to decide if we were going to remain married or not.
(We obviously did.)

Did *I* do anything differently that made his attitude change? Nope,
not a thing other than refuse to let him treat me the way he had been
for any longer. Did *I* change? Nope. He did. And, quite honestly, all
he did was to quit blaming me for not being someone else and remind
himself of what it was about me that made him fall in love with me
in the first place. Until he did that, no matter how good our marriage
was, he was never going to see it and he didn't.

Tracey

Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote in message news:<403514A1.2020709@aol.com>...

And, four, when someone consistantly responds to suggestions on how to better confront or solve or view problems in their lives with resis- tance and 'Yes, but..'s and 'That won't work because...' without even *trying*, it's usually indicative that they don't *really* want to solve the problem. They just want to *look* like they want to.

It's more than that, actually. It's one of the Games People Play. It's
a favorite pasttime for some people. The payoff is 1) it keeps Ted the
center of attention; and 2) Ted gets a "gotcha" thrill when no one can
solve his insolvable problem.

jen

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<c12un6$1dt7e0$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de>... I'll surprise her with flowers now and then (that's tricky -- if I do it too much or buy something too expensive she'll complain that I'm spending too much.)

There are a lot of frugal alternatives to flowers.

Thought I'd start a new thread and maybe we can all brainstorm on this
topic. I'll start:

- Write "I love you" in lipstick or soap on the bathroom mirror

- Stick "I'm thinking about you" post-it-notes all over the house when
she's away and you're at home

- Skip the Hallmark and write an old-fashioned letter to leave under
her pillow; scent it with your perfume or cologne

- Bring a pint of Starbucks Java Chip ice cream to bed with two spoons
(a favorite here in this house!)

- The most romantic gift I ever got was a tiny, hokey "message in a
bottle" purchased at one of those seashore gift shops. My boyfriend of
the time took a tiny little piece of paper, wrote a Song of Psalms
bible verse on it, and put it inside the bottle.

- Take your favorite book of poetry and bookmark a poem with a
post-it-note: "This one reminded me of you" or "when you miss me, read
this."


Anyone else have ideas?

jen

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0402191636.302a5005@posting.google.c om... Anyone else have ideas?

Pancakes with real maple syrup. OTOH, I'm hungry, could be affecting the
thought process....

shinypenny wrote: Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote in message news:<403514A1.2020709@aol.com>... And, four, when someone consistantly responds to suggestions on how to better confront or solve or view problems in their lives with resis- tance and 'Yes, but..'s and 'That won't work because...' without even *trying*, it's usually indicative that they don't *really* want to solve the problem. They just want to *look* like they want to. It's more than that, actually. It's one of the Games People Play. It's a favorite pasttime for some people. The payoff is 1) it keeps Ted the center of attention; and 2) Ted gets a "gotcha" thrill when no one can solve his insolvable problem.

Except it's not really a game, cause this has been going on now (it seems) for
years, and BOTH parties are LOSING out in the relationship. And it ain't EVER
gonna improve with the pharmacist in the picture.

In article <103alvn1efpsj67@corp.supernews.com>, Joy
<joydoesntlikespam@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote:
Pancakes with real maple syrup. OTOH, I'm hungry, could be affecting the thought process....

I do that a couple of times a month.
But my wife doesn't like real maple syrup. (why does that not surprise
anyone?) So she gets the artificial kind and I have the real.

Ted

"Bill in Co" <Lost-In-Time@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<DSdZb.1012$aT1.416@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.ne t>... shinypenny wrote: Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote in message news:<403514A1.2020709@aol.com>... And, four, when someone consistantly responds to suggestions on how to better confront or solve or view problems in their lives with resis- tance and 'Yes, but..'s and 'That won't work because...' without even *trying*, it's usually indicative that they don't *really* want to solve the problem. They just want to *look* like they want to. It's more than that, actually. It's one of the Games People Play. It's a favorite pasttime for some people. The payoff is 1) it keeps Ted the center of attention; and 2) Ted gets a "gotcha" thrill when no one can solve his insolvable problem. Except it's not really a game, cause this has been going on now (it seems) for years, and BOTH parties are LOSING out in the relationship. And it ain't EVER gonna improve with the pharmacist in the picture.


But see, it's *never* been about improving the relationship. It's
about Ted passing the time because he's bored, and getting a thrill
when he's stumped us all!

I've been thinking about this overnight, and it dawned on me that
maybe the real issue here is that Ted is just bored with his life. I
get the feeling that Ted needs excitement and drama to feel alive.
Perhaps when he was an alcoholic, that fufilled this need for him. Now
that he's sober, he's restless and needs a new form of excitement and
drama.

The relationship with the Pharmacist fits the bill because it is
elicit and there's always this delicious *maybe* hanging in the air
between them. It gives him hours of pleasure going over and over again
the minute details of each past encounter.

As for his wife, he revels in the pain of his victimhood. It gives him
drama to walk around believing he has the power, at any minute, to
really shake things up, perhaps to discard a 30 year marriage with one
secret uttered from his lips....

The fact that he hasn't taken a step in either direction tells me that
his fantasy life fills the bill and keeps him happy; he needs drama
but only to a certain extent which is fully within his mind and his
own control. Kinda like Walter Mitty. He'd probably totally freak out
if life threw him a real, meaty challenge, like his house caught fire
and he lost everything.

As for us here on ASM, and why we constantly play the game along with
him, I think it's because we're all just bored, too. :)

I want to add that I think there's absolutely nothing wrong with
needing excitement and drama to feel alive - I also need it to be
happy, and I hate being bored and feeling stagnated. I long realized
this about myself. I channel this in different ways, by taking lots of
bold risks with my career that would make others quite squeamish.
Boredom has long been the secret of my professional success, as it has
propelled me towards taking bigger and more rewarding risks.

As for personal relationships, I've done some really stupid,
soap-opera-quality things in the past, only later to recognize that it
was because I was bored and needing some drama in my life. I recognize
and fully appreciate that my present relationship meets this need
quite nicely; our relationship is never boring, but it's also not
filled with the "bad" kind of destructive drama. My DF thrives on
excitement as well, but we manage to fulfill that need in safe ways
like going out dancing, trying new adventures, going new places,
acting like kids. We're constantly generating our own shared
excitement, and that just manages to reinforce our relationship in a
good way.

It would be great, I think, if Ted could concentrate on finding ways
that he and his wife could generate their own excitement. I'm pretty
sure that he's going to "yabut" me here and say that his wife would
never be bold enough to go dancing or try new adventures with him.
Barring that, maybe he could take up a heart-pounding sport like
bungee jumping or sky diving? I suspect it would be very good for him!

jen

Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message news:<190220042237049225%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com>... In article <103alvn1efpsj67@corp.supernews.com>, Joy <joydoesntlikespam@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote: Pancakes with real maple syrup. OTOH, I'm hungry, could be affecting the thought process.... I do that a couple of times a month. But my wife doesn't like real maple syrup. (why does that not surprise anyone?) So she gets the artificial kind and I have the real. Ted

In our house, my husband gets the fake and dd and I get the real. I
don't understand how someone would like the aunt jemimah stuff
better???

Since your wife stays home and you work, I assume that she does most
of the cleaning. A nice gesture might be to get her a day of someone
or a team to come in a clean the tough stuff. I'm projecting of
course.

caren50@msn.com (Caren) writes:
Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message news:<190220042237049225%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com>... In article <103alvn1efpsj67@corp.supernews.com>, Joy <joydoesntlikespam@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote: Pancakes with real maple syrup. OTOH, I'm hungry, could be affecting the thought process.... I do that a couple of times a month. But my wife doesn't like real maple syrup. (why does that not surprise anyone?) So she gets the artificial kind and I have the real. In our house, my husband gets the fake and dd and I get the real. I don't understand how someone would like the aunt jemimah stuff better???

I'll hazard a guess. Mrs Seeker thinks is not that interested in the
fine details of flavor and thinks imitation is essentially as good as
the real thing, so why pay so much more for the real thing?

And insistence on preferring the imitation is her slightly
passive-agressive way of trying to drive this home.

I admit that the reason this explanation occurs to me is that it is
something I'd be tempted to do. (_NOT_ with maple syrup of course.
And in fact, not with food.)
Since your wife stays home and you work, I assume that she does most of the cleaning. A nice gesture might be to get her a day of someone or a team to come in a clean the tough stuff. I'm projecting of course.

I'm gonna try two for two here. Ted's reply is that (he's mentioned
this before) his wife is fairly tight with money. And so she wouldn't
like the money being spent on that.

shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) wrote in message news:<c8cb5319.0402191627.3aa54761@posting.google.com>... Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote in message news:<403514A1.2020709@aol.com>... And, four, when someone consistantly responds to suggestions on how to better confront or solve or view problems in their lives with resis- tance and 'Yes, but..'s and 'That won't work because...' without even *trying*, it's usually indicative that they don't *really* want to solve the problem. They just want to *look* like they want to. It's more than that, actually. It's one of the Games People Play. It's a favorite pasttime for some people. The payoff is 1) it keeps Ted the center of attention; and 2) Ted gets a "gotcha" thrill when no one can solve his insolvable problem. jen

Yes I think Ted especially likes #1.

I also think that he uses his dysfunctional marriage as an excuse to
continue to see the Pharmacist and/or others. It might be inconvenient
for him on a number of levels if things got better.

I wonder if his biggest fear is that his marriage will improve, but
only modestly (a likely scenario). He still wouldn't be completely
happy with his wife but he could no longer justify the relationship
with the Pharmacist.

A dysfunctional marriage and an ongoing emotional affair in Ted's mind
may be preferrable to an improved but only moderately satisfying
marriage. I think he's set the bar pretty high on what he wants his
wife to evolve into.

What do you think Ted?

caren50@msn.com (Caren) wrote in message
In our house, my husband gets the fake and dd and I get the real. I don't understand how someone would like the aunt jemimah stuff better???

Taste is a funny thing, it doesn't submit to rules easily! I, too,
like the fake better. Reason is, I don't like the taste (or
aftertaste, or maybe smell) of maple... Anyway, the fake stuff has
none of that, so it's quite delicious.
:-)

caren50@msn.com (Caren) wrote in message news:<3754f0b3.0402200733.20611843@posting.google.com>... Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message news:<190220042237049225%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com>... In article <103alvn1efpsj67@corp.supernews.com>, Joy <joydoesntlikespam@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote: Pancakes with real maple syrup. OTOH, I'm hungry, could be affecting the thought process.... I do that a couple of times a month. But my wife doesn't like real maple syrup. (why does that not surprise anyone?) So she gets the artificial kind and I have the real. Ted In our house, my husband gets the fake and dd and I get the real. I don't understand how someone would like the aunt jemimah stuff better???

Sometimes it's just what you're used to. When I was a kid I couldn't
stand the taste of diet soda, then for years I preferred it. After not
drinking soda at all for quite some time, I don't much like the taste
of either.

Since your wife stays home and you work, I assume that she does most of the cleaning. A nice gesture might be to get her a day of someone or a team to come in a clean the tough stuff. I'm projecting of course.

"Jingle Bells" <jinglebells5555@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f804e152.0402191500.a23839e@posting.google.co m... I'm glad that you're doing those things and I hope it helps. Do you hug when you first see each other in the evening?
Disappointingly, no, unless I make a deliberate point of it. As I've said
before, she's usually in bed resting by the time I get home and if so I do
try to reach over the bed and give her a hug; but if she happens to be up
(say because what's for dinner is something either I'm not fixing or it
needs attention at the time) I have to go seek her out -- she doesn't come
to the front door to greet me (even though she says, as she just did the
other day, that the highlight of her day is when I come home.)
I did notice that she wants you to spend more time with her. That's not my definition of "enduring" your presence.
As far as I know, the only "enduring" I've talked about is our visits to
the therapist -- and in those cases it's not me she's enduring but the
process.

Ted

"Jingle Bells" <jinglebells5555@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f804e152.0402200958.4be0fdb4@posting.google.c om...>
What do you think Ted?

I think I wanna get laid.

(sorry -- it's late on Friday.)

Ted

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> writes:
"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:TTpZb.87984$uV3.551761@attbi_s51... I'm gonna try two for two here. Ted's reply is that (he's mentioned this before) his wife is fairly tight with money. And so she wouldn't like the money being spent on that. Only one for two, Doug. The reason she doesn't like real maple syrup is it's too strong, too sweet.

That's interesting. Is fake maple syrup sweeter than real? I hadn't
noticed (couldn't get past not liking the flavor).

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:jmk72h1lo4.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu... That's interesting. Is fake maple syrup sweeter than real? I hadn't noticed (couldn't get past not liking the flavor).

No, it's the other way around -- I think the real is sweeter than the fake,
although I pay more attention to the flavor (which is why I prefere the
real.)

Ted

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> writes:
"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:jmk72h1lo4.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu... That's interesting. Is fake maple syrup sweeter than real? I hadn't noticed (couldn't get past not liking the flavor). No, it's the other way around -- I think the real is sweeter than the fake, although I pay more attention to the flavor (which is why I prefere the real.)

Sorry - that was what I meant to ask. I'd never noticed it though.

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0402200654.4bb37d03@posting.google.c om... But see, it's *never* been about improving the relationship. It's about Ted passing the time because he's bored, and getting a thrill when he's stumped us all!
Jen -- there is a lot of truth in what you've written, but it's not the
complete truth. I'm not even going to try to measure how much of the truth
it is either. Yes, I am bored a lot of the time and I am bored with my
wife. My job is essentially very boring, although I do enjoy the
interactions with people when I have them. My drinking was not, however,
to relieve the boredom -- it was to numb myself out from all the things I
was unhappy about. And I'm not sure if at that time I was as in as much
need of excitement as I am now.

I did originally post here with the very specific intention of finding help,
of finding an answer to my question (I think the first time I posted the
question was whether if just my going to counselling by myself rather than
both of us could be expected to help significanlty.) There have been other
times also when I had some rather specific questions and was looking for
specific answers. One of the reasons 12-step programs work is you usually
can find somebody whose situation was close enough to yours that you can
identify with them and that gives you encouragement to try to do what they
did to get to where they are now. I've looked for that here but haven't
found much of it; I know I can be accused of raising the yabuts and
magnifying the differences rather than focussing on the similarities, but I
don't think I'm doing that dishonestly. Recently there have been several
posts talking about how women typically behave in such and such a way and
men behave in such and such a way -- one of the things I've learned in what
little reading I've done is that it is unwise to generalize so readily
(Mars/Venus was the first example I ran across that showed me that -- his
generalizations simply don't work.) And that tells me that the particular
circumstances of our situation *do* matter, although your guess is as good
as mine as to what parts matter and what don't.

Sure I like the attention (and it would seem y'all don't in general mind
giving it.) But I also post for another reason -- I just seem to need a
sounding board to think aloud, and it seems to be even better if it can get
at least some feedback.

As to my wife and me finding more exciting things to do. Forget it. She
does *not*, I repeat, *not* like excitement. ("boring is good" is one of
her favorite sayings.) As for me, that would be a non-starter too: her
greatest fear is that something will happen to me before she dies and the
idea of me engaging in any kind of risky behavior would drive her bonkers.
No skydiving, sorry.

Ted