On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 02:19:07 GMT, "Martha Emerson" <madcap2@nc.rr.com>
wrote:
Hi to you nice people at asm. I'm a lurker who has enjoyed the group forseveral months and am impressed with your acumen, good will, and occasionalhumor. May I please share a situation with you and ask your opinions? Thereisn't anything really to be done, but I would like your reactions.Last May, my daughter, age 40, married a man whom she had dated for about ayear and a half. She was divorced from her two sons' father (who,dreadfully, has since had a heart attack that resulted in severe braindamage - so he is not an issue here.); thus the marriage to C was legit andin a reasonable time frame.The wedding was a very small but sweet affair in a small church. She lookedlovely in a wedding dress - the dress my mother (her grandmother, of course)had sewn many years ago for my neice, and the men did wear tux and there wasdulcimer music and a lovely cake and champagne, etc., etc. Several peopleflew in or drove from out of town and stayed - at their expense - at motels,etc. So, it was a conventional wedding, and we all enjoyed it.This marriage has not worked out, and only last weekend she moved herselfand the boys out of C's house into an apartment. So, of course, as hermother, I am concerned and worried about her and my grandsons.I mentioned to her to get separation agreement written to get the legalitiesstarted, and - here we finally come to the punch line: she told me that sheand C have never filed their marriage license. In fact, C stuff wrote allover it and sent it to the State Office when they inquired about thedisposition of the license.Indeed, they simply are not married, but are "committed" - what ever in thehell that means. It seems that C got cold feet about a week before thewedding, and either she talked him into this make-believe ceremony or it wasa mutual decision, I don't know.(The only other good thing about it is that they had requested "no gifts,"so we don't have that issue to gnash about.)I am grateful that since things are not working out, there are no legaldifficulties here; that is a big relief. However, I am furious at thedeception, and I guess this is where I am asking for your opinions. I feelthis was a gross subtefuge; I feel in a way that all of us were made foolsof as we were supporting what we thought was a conventional marriage. But,then, so what it was not a a conventional marriage. Does or should thatdetract from our good wishes and support for the happy couple? Isn't atraditional wedding just a Commitment after all?I don't know if the out-of-towners would have made the effort had the knownof the plan to only make a "Commitment," and I am now resenting my ownrather generous gift to the happy couple.What do you think? Have any of your experienced anything like this? Is myresentment unfair? Should I just try to laugh this off? Thanks for theshoulder.Martha

I'd be pissed. I hate weddings and if I had to sit through one that
wasn't real, well that would give me a rash so bad I don't think I'd
ever get over it.

Seriously though, I think your feelings are legit. You were lied to
and lied to in a pretty big way. There is no getting around that. I
don't know if I'd carry this with me for the rest of my life, but I
certainly would let your daughter be aware of your disappointment.

--Brian

Hi to you nice people at asm. I'm a lurker who has enjoyed the group for
several months and am impressed with your acumen, good will, and occasional
humor. May I please share a situation with you and ask your opinions? There
isn't anything really to be done, but I would like your reactions.

Last May, my daughter, age 40, married a man whom she had dated for about a
year and a half. She was divorced from her two sons' father (who,
dreadfully, has since had a heart attack that resulted in severe brain
damage - so he is not an issue here.); thus the marriage to C was legit and
in a reasonable time frame.

The wedding was a very small but sweet affair in a small church. She looked
lovely in a wedding dress - the dress my mother (her grandmother, of course)
had sewn many years ago for my neice, and the men did wear tux and there was
dulcimer music and a lovely cake and champagne, etc., etc. Several people
flew in or drove from out of town and stayed - at their expense - at motels,
etc. So, it was a conventional wedding, and we all enjoyed it.

This marriage has not worked out, and only last weekend she moved herself
and the boys out of C's house into an apartment. So, of course, as her
mother, I am concerned and worried about her and my grandsons.

I mentioned to her to get separation agreement written to get the legalities
started, and - here we finally come to the punch line: she told me that she
and C have never filed their marriage license. In fact, C stuff wrote all
over it and sent it to the State Office when they inquired about the
disposition of the license.

Indeed, they simply are not married, but are "committed" - what ever in the
hell that means. It seems that C got cold feet about a week before the
wedding, and either she talked him into this make-believe ceremony or it was
a mutual decision, I don't know.

(The only other good thing about it is that they had requested "no gifts,"
so we don't have that issue to gnash about.)

I am grateful that since things are not working out, there are no legal
difficulties here; that is a big relief. However, I am furious at the
deception, and I guess this is where I am asking for your opinions. I feel
this was a gross subtefuge; I feel in a way that all of us were made fools
of as we were supporting what we thought was a conventional marriage. But,
then, so what it was not a a conventional marriage. Does or should that
detract from our good wishes and support for the happy couple? Isn't a
traditional wedding just a Commitment after all?

I don't know if the out-of-towners would have made the effort had the known
of the plan to only make a "Commitment," and I am now resenting my own
rather generous gift to the happy couple.

What do you think? Have any of your experienced anything like this? Is my
resentment unfair? Should I just try to laugh this off? Thanks for the
shoulder.

Martha

"Martha Emerson" <madcap2@nc.rr.com> writes:

Snip story of fake marriage.
What do you think? Have any of your experienced anything like this? Is my resentment unfair? Should I just try to laugh this off? Thanks for the shoulder.

I think it was dishonest of them to pretend to be getting legally
married when they weren't. And I might want to say to my daughter (if
she did this) that I was disappointed in her and feel like I was lied
to.

And then I'd try to get over it, because she probably has more
important problems.

Martha Emerson wrote:
What do you think? Have any of your experienced anything like this? Is my resentment unfair? Should I just try to laugh this off? Thanks for the shoulder.

Let me get this straight, Martha. Your daughter and her fiance held a
charming wedding ceremony but decided to forgo the legalities of making it
official wrt the state. (Something all the guests were assuming did happen.)

Since they have now parted you can't even be sure either or both of them
were making a "handfasting" type of commitment with the sincere intention to
remain together for the rest of their lives. The fact that they applied for
a license in the first place makes it hard to believe they had a
philosophical reason to shun the piece of paper.

Well, I think as her mother you're entitled to feel upset and angry. You've
been lied to. You've also been asked to put emotional energy and support
into something that wasn't actually real. I'd be absolutely furious.

I also think the guests were entitled to know just what type of contract
they were witnessing. I don't have a problem with commitment ceremonies and
think them perfectly appropriate if that's what the couple want. Why did
your daughter and her 'husband' want to deceive you all? The secrecy makes
the whole business a cheat and cheapens what should have been the special
event you thought it was.

So, if you want permission to feel hurt, used, resentful, and generally
pissed off you can have it with bells on! They were sneaky and underhanded
and there's no getting around that.

However, you proably aren't angry enough to want to cut yourself off from
your daughter and your grandsons so I think adopting a dignified and quietly
hurt approach might be the best way to show your feelings.


Tai

"Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:bvpnpl$uj38d$1@ID-123442.news.uni-berlin.de...

, Martha. Your daughter and her fiance held a charming wedding ceremony but decided to forgo the legalities of making it official wrt the state. (Something all the guests were assuming did
happen.) Since they have now parted you can't even be sure either or both of them were making a "handfasting" type of commitment with the sincere intention
to remain together for the rest of their lives. The fact that they applied
for a license in the first place makes it hard to believe they had a philosophical reason to shun the piece of paper. Well, I think as her mother you're entitled to feel upset and angry.
You've been lied to. You've also been asked to put emotional energy and support into something that wasn't actually real. I'd be absolutely furious. I also think the guests were entitled to know just what type of contract they were witnessing. I don't have a problem with commitment ceremonies
and think them perfectly appropriate if that's what the couple want. Why did your daughter and her 'husband' want to deceive you all? The secrecy
makes the whole business a cheat and cheapens what should have been the special event you thought it was. So, if you want permission to feel hurt, used, resentful, and generally pissed off you can have it with bells on! They were sneaky and underhanded and there's no getting around that. However, you proably aren't angry enough to want to cut yourself off from your daughter and your grandsons so I think adopting a dignified and
quietly hurt approach might be the best way to show your feelings. Tai

Tai - Many thanks for your comments, insight and understanding. You and Doug
are right, I'm sure, that all of us are entitled to feel angry but that I
should maintain my dignity and give her the support she certainly does need
now.

Martha

"Martha Emerson" <madcap2@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:vEYTb.36793$YG.2948819@twister.southeast.rr.c om...

*snipped fake wedding story*
What do you think? Have any of your experienced anything like this? Is
my resentment unfair? Should I just try to laugh this off? Thanks for the shoulder.

No, your resentment is not unfair. I don't like being lied to as much as the
next person, and you have every right to feel bitter over being deceived.

There's really nothing I can say except that your daughter needs to really
grow up. It's not a question of whether they did or didn't get married -
it's that she's not enough of an adult to say to everyone "this is my
choice".

Just my .02

"Martha Emerson" <madcap2@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:vEYTb.36793$YG.2948819@twister.southeast.rr.c om... Hi to you nice people at asm. I'm a lurker who has enjoyed the group for several months and am impressed with your acumen, good will, and
occasional humor. May I please share a situation with you and ask your opinions?
There isn't anything really to be done, but I would like your reactions. Last May, my daughter, age 40, married a man whom she had dated for about
a year and a half. She was divorced from her two sons' father (who, dreadfully, has since had a heart attack that resulted in severe brain damage - so he is not an issue here.); thus the marriage to C was legit
and in a reasonable time frame. The wedding was a very small but sweet affair in a small church. She
looked lovely in a wedding dress - the dress my mother (her grandmother, of
course) had sewn many years ago for my neice, and the men did wear tux and there
was dulcimer music and a lovely cake and champagne, etc., etc. Several people flew in or drove from out of town and stayed - at their expense - at
motels, etc. So, it was a conventional wedding, and we all enjoyed it. This marriage has not worked out, and only last weekend she moved herself and the boys out of C's house into an apartment. So, of course, as her mother, I am concerned and worried about her and my grandsons. I mentioned to her to get separation agreement written to get the
legalities started, and - here we finally come to the punch line: she told me that
she and C have never filed their marriage license. In fact, C stuff wrote all over it and sent it to the State Office when they inquired about the disposition of the license. Indeed, they simply are not married, but are "committed" - what ever in
the hell that means. It seems that C got cold feet about a week before the wedding, and either she talked him into this make-believe ceremony or it
was a mutual decision, I don't know. (The only other good thing about it is that they had requested "no gifts," so we don't have that issue to gnash about.) I am grateful that since things are not working out, there are no legal difficulties here; that is a big relief. However, I am furious at the deception, and I guess this is where I am asking for your opinions. I
feel this was a gross subtefuge; I feel in a way that all of us were made fools of as we were supporting what we thought was a conventional marriage.
But, then, so what it was not a a conventional marriage. Does or should that detract from our good wishes and support for the happy couple? Isn't a traditional wedding just a Commitment after all? I don't know if the out-of-towners would have made the effort had the
known of the plan to only make a "Commitment," and I am now resenting my own rather generous gift to the happy couple. What do you think? Have any of your experienced anything like this? Is
my resentment unfair? Should I just try to laugh this off? Thanks for the shoulder.Martha

First let me say Martha that I am very impressed with your command of the
English language and correct use of grammar (and puntuation!!!).

That, having been said.....

As far as I am concerned they were married whether or not they had a piece
of paper which "sanctioned" it by the local governmental authority.
Marriages are made in the heart and in the vows that are taken. The
paperwork is just a detail to make the IRS and other similar bureaus happy.
I would not feel the fool if I were you. I believe at the time that the
vows were made that their intentions were good (at least your daughter's
were).

It is fortunate for your daughter that no paperwork was filed. Now she will
not have to go through an "official" divorce (again paperwork for legal
purposes). But will simply be able to walk away with all of her
before-marriage assets.

Chalk this one up to experience and try not to rub it in when you have
arguments. Remember that someday you will all laugh at this.

Besides he sounded like a real schmuck to me.

SD

If I had a daughter that had pulled something like that off, I would be
pretty dissapointed in her.
Oh, don´t take me wrong, I´d help her, watch out for her, and *not* rub it
in her face, (heck, I´ve done my share of foolish things in life).
But I would not consider her a mature person of sound values anymore and
would be quite wary about what she might talk her self into *and* what she
might lie to me about next.

My relief that she didn´t marry this silly guy afterall would be
overshadowed by my consern about her ease of lying to others, and especially
to herself.

Sioban

Martha Emerson schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
<snip> The wedding was a very small but sweet affair in a small church. She
looked lovely in a wedding dress - the dress my mother (her grandmother, of
course) had sewn many years ago for my neice, and the men did wear tux and there
was dulcimer music and a lovely cake and champagne, etc., etc. Several people flew in or drove from out of town and stayed - at their expense - at
motels, etc. So, it was a conventional wedding, and we all enjoyed it. This marriage has not worked out, and only last weekend she moved herself and the boys out of C's house into an apartment. So, of course, as her mother, I am concerned and worried about her and my grandsons. I mentioned to her to get separation agreement written to get the
legalities started, and - here we finally come to the punch line: she told me that
she and C have never filed their marriage license. In fact, C stuff wrote all over it and sent it to the State Office when they inquired about the disposition of the license. Indeed, they simply are not married, but are "committed" - what ever in
the hell that means. It seems that C got cold feet about a week before the wedding, and either she talked him into this make-believe ceremony or it
was a mutual decision, I don't know.
<snip>
<snip>

Martha Emerson wrote: Hi to you nice people at asm. I'm a lurker who has enjoyed the group for several months and am impressed with your acumen, good will, and occasional humor. May I please share a situation with you and ask your opinions? There isn't anything really to be done, but I would like your reactions. Last May, my daughter, age 40, married a man whom she had dated for about a year and a half. She was divorced from her two sons' father (who, dreadfully, has since had a heart attack that resulted in severe brain damage - so he is not an issue here.); thus the marriage to C was legit and in a reasonable time frame. The wedding was a very small but sweet affair in a small church. She looked lovely in a wedding dress - the dress my mother (her grandmother, of course) had sewn many years ago for my neice, and the men did wear tux and there was dulcimer music and a lovely cake and champagne, etc., etc. Several people flew in or drove from out of town and stayed - at their expense - at motels, etc. So, it was a conventional wedding, and we all enjoyed it. This marriage has not worked out, and only last weekend she moved herself and the boys out of C's house into an apartment. So, of course, as her mother, I am concerned and worried about her and my grandsons. I mentioned to her to get separation agreement written to get the legalities started, and - here we finally come to the punch line: she told me that she and C have never filed their marriage license. In fact, C stuff wrote all over it and sent it to the State Office when they inquired about the disposition of the license. Indeed, they simply are not married, but are "committed" - what ever in the hell that means. It seems that C got cold feet about a week before the wedding, and either she talked him into this make-believe ceremony or it was a mutual decision, I don't know. (The only other good thing about it is that they had requested "no gifts," so we don't have that issue to gnash about.) I am grateful that since things are not working out, there are no legal difficulties here; that is a big relief. However, I am furious at the deception, and I guess this is where I am asking for your opinions. I feel this was a gross subtefuge; I feel in a way that all of us were made fools of as we were supporting what we thought was a conventional marriage. But, then, so what it was not a a conventional marriage. Does or should that detract from our good wishes and support for the happy couple? Isn't a traditional wedding just a Commitment after all? I don't know if the out-of-towners would have made the effort had the known of the plan to only make a "Commitment," and I am now resenting my own rather generous gift to the happy couple. What do you think? Have any of your experienced anything like this? Is my resentment unfair? Should I just try to laugh this off? Thanks for the shoulder. Martha
I think you should mind your own business.

--
email:
cari_p at comcast dot net

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 02:19:07 GMT, Martha Emerson
<madcap2@nc.rr.com> wrote:

<Snip>
I mentioned to her to get separation agreement written to get the legalities started, and - here we finally come to the punch line: she told me that she and C have never filed their marriage license. In fact, C stuff wrote all over it and sent it to the State Office when they inquired about the disposition of the license. Indeed, they simply are not married, but are "committed" - what ever in the hell that means. It seems that C got cold feet about a week before the wedding, and either she talked him into this make-believe ceremony or it was a mutual decision, I don't know.

It was probably for your benefit.
(The only other good thing about it is that they had requested "no gifts," so we don't have that issue to gnash about.) I am grateful that since things are not working out, there are no legal difficulties here; that is a big relief. However, I am furious at the deception, and I guess this is where I am asking for your opinions. I feel this was a gross subtefuge; I feel in a way that all of us were made fools of as we were supporting what we thought was a conventional marriage. But, then, so what it was not a a conventional marriage. Does or should that detract from our good wishes and support for the happy couple? Isn't a traditional wedding just a Commitment after all?

No, it's not just a "Commitment". And the only wish I have for the "happy
couple" is that they really get married. Fact is, they've been shacking
up.
I don't know if the out-of-towners would have made the effort had the known of the plan to only make a "Commitment," and I am now resenting my own rather generous gift to the happy couple. What do you think? Have any of your experienced anything like this? Is my resentment unfair? Should I just try to laugh this off? Thanks for the shoulder.

You have a right to be ticked, and not attend the next "committment party"
she plans. So tell me... How long was she committed to this
"Committment"?

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

"Martha Emerson" <madcap2@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:vEYTb.36793$YG.2948819@twister.southeast.rr.c om... The wedding was a very small but sweet affair in a small church. She
looked lovely in a wedding dress - the dress my mother (her grandmother, of
course) had sewn many years ago for my neice, and the men did wear tux and there
was dulcimer music and a lovely cake and champagne, etc., etc. Several
people flew in or drove from out of town and stayed - at their expense - at
motels, etc. So, it was a conventional wedding, and we all enjoyed it. This marriage has not worked out, and only last weekend she moved
herself and the boys out of C's house into an apartment. So, of course, as her mother, I am concerned and worried about her and my grandsons. I mentioned to her to get separation agreement written to get the
legalities started, and - here we finally come to the punch line: she told me that
she and C have never filed their marriage license. In fact, C stuff wrote
all over it and sent it to the State Office when they inquired about the disposition of the license.

That seems very strange that the church would have gone along with the
lie. When I got married, we had to give the marriage certificate directly
to the reverend for him to sign and send in. He wouldn't have performed
the ceremony without it.
Indeed, they simply are not married, but are "committed" - what ever in
the hell that means. It seems that C got cold feet about a week before the wedding, and either she talked him into this make-believe ceremony or it
was a mutual decision, I don't know.

Obviously they aren't even commited. Maybe C had good reason to get cold
feet, given that they haven't even lasted a year. Certainly I'd be upset
about the lies, and that was a very bad foot to get a relationship or
whatever they call it off the ground, but at least they can disentangle
without too much effort now.
I am grateful that since things are not working out, there are no legal difficulties here; that is a big relief. However, I am furious at the deception, and I guess this is where I am asking for your opinions. I
feel this was a gross subtefuge; I feel in a way that all of us were made
fools of as we were supporting what we thought was a conventional marriage.
But, then, so what it was not a a conventional marriage. Does or should that detract from our good wishes and support for the happy couple? Isn't a traditional wedding just a Commitment after all?

In a traditional wedding, the couple actually cares enough to both going
through the loopholes to make themselves legally a family. If C changed
his mind and didn't want to do that at the last minute, then I kind of
doubt that they were actually believing the vows the said. They weren't
actually binding or anything.
I don't know if the out-of-towners would have made the effort had the
known of the plan to only make a "Commitment," and I am now resenting my own rather generous gift to the happy couple.

Probably they wouldn't have. I'm guessing that what happened was that
after everything was planned and arranged and C changed his mind at the
last minute, they might have been afraid to bother telling everyone. And
really, the out-of-towners had probably already made all their
reservations before the deception was even considered. At the time the
invitations were mailed, weren't they actually intending to get married?
If they asked for no gifts, then you weren't obligated to get them
anything. Even if they had sent the certificate back in, you'd be dealing
with a nice gift for a marriage that was doomed.
What do you think? Have any of your experienced anything like this? Is
my resentment unfair? Should I just try to laugh this off? Thanks for the shoulder.

I think your daughter has more than enough problems as it is without you
needing to stay mad at her. I'm sure she's learned from this mistake,
although next time she says she's getting married, I doubt I'd make any
effort at all to bother with going.

"Martha Emerson" <madcap2@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:vEYTb.36793$YG.2948819@twister.southeast.rr.c om... Hi to you nice people at asm. I'm a lurker who has enjoyed the group for several months and am impressed with your acumen, good will, and
occasional humor. May I please share a situation with you and ask your opinions?
There isn't anything really to be done, but I would like your reactions. Last May, my daughter, age 40, married a man whom she had dated for about
a year and a half. She was divorced from her two sons' father (who, dreadfully, has since had a heart attack that resulted in severe brain damage - so he is not an issue here.); thus the marriage to C was legit
and in a reasonable time frame. The wedding was a very small but sweet affair in a small church. She
looked lovely in a wedding dress - the dress my mother (her grandmother, of
course) had sewn many years ago for my neice, and the men did wear tux and there
was dulcimer music and a lovely cake and champagne, etc., etc. Several people flew in or drove from out of town and stayed - at their expense - at
motels, etc. So, it was a conventional wedding, and we all enjoyed it. This marriage has not worked out, and only last weekend she moved herself and the boys out of C's house into an apartment. So, of course, as her mother, I am concerned and worried about her and my grandsons. I mentioned to her to get separation agreement written to get the
legalities started, and - here we finally come to the punch line: she told me that
she and C have never filed their marriage license. In fact, C stuff wrote all over it and sent it to the State Office when they inquired about the disposition of the license. Indeed, they simply are not married, but are "committed" - what ever in
the hell that means. It seems that C got cold feet about a week before the wedding, and either she talked him into this make-believe ceremony or it
was a mutual decision, I don't know. (The only other good thing about it is that they had requested "no gifts," so we don't have that issue to gnash about.) I am grateful that since things are not working out, there are no legal difficulties here; that is a big relief. However, I am furious at the deception, and I guess this is where I am asking for your opinions. I
feel this was a gross subtefuge; I feel in a way that all of us were made fools of as we were supporting what we thought was a conventional marriage.
But, then, so what it was not a a conventional marriage. Does or should that detract from our good wishes and support for the happy couple? Isn't a traditional wedding just a Commitment after all? I don't know if the out-of-towners would have made the effort had the
known of the plan to only make a "Commitment," and I am now resenting my own rather generous gift to the happy couple. What do you think? Have any of your experienced anything like this? Is
my resentment unfair? Should I just try to laugh this off? Thanks for the shoulder. Martha

I'd be some pissed. Comittment is a post fact cop out for not being able to
face the music when the cold feet set in. And did I mention that I would be
pissed? If I wanted to respect someone with whom I wanted to have a close
relationship, I personally would not just brush it off but discuss it.

S

Martha Emerson <madcap2@nc.rr.com> wrote:
I mentioned to her to get separation agreement written to get the legalities started, and - here we finally come to the punch line: she told me that she and C have never filed their marriage license. In fact, C stuff wrote all over it and sent it to the State Office when they inquired about the disposition of the license.

Martha, are you absolutely sure there won't be any legal difficulties?
I can't tell where you are from - is there some sort of common law
marriage law? Also, I am not getting what you mean when you say "C
stuff wrote all over it and sent it to the State Office"? Does that
mean it was filed in some manner?

mbjq@earthlink.net (Emma Anne) writes:
Martha Emerson <madcap2@nc.rr.com> wrote: I mentioned to her to get separation agreement written to get the legalities started, and - here we finally come to the punch line: she told me that she and C have never filed their marriage license. In fact, C stuff wrote all over it and sent it to the State Office when they inquired about the disposition of the license. Martha, are you absolutely sure there won't be any legal difficulties? I can't tell where you are from - is there some sort of common law marriage law?

They weren't together long enough for common law to kick in anyplace I
know about.
Also, I am not getting what you mean when you say "C stuff wrote all over it and sent it to the State Office"? Does that mean it was filed in some manner?

Yeah, I'm confused about that too.

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:wjwu72pw1i.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu... mbjq@earthlink.net (Emma Anne) writes: Martha Emerson <madcap2@nc.rr.com> wrote: I mentioned to her to get separation agreement written to get the
legalities started, and - here we finally come to the punch line: she told me
that she and C have never filed their marriage license. In fact, C stuff wrote
all over it and sent it to the State Office when they inquired about the disposition of the license. Martha, are you absolutely sure there won't be any legal difficulties? I can't tell where you are from - is there some sort of common law marriage law? They weren't together long enough for common law to kick in anyplace I know about. Also, I am not getting what you mean when you say "C stuff wrote all over it and sent it to the State Office"? Does that mean it was filed in some manner? Yeah, I'm confused about that too.

I'm not really sure what she meant by his "writing all over" the license; I
assumed he wrote VOID or something like that. This is really a sorry
situation, and, to say the least, embarrassing.

And I agree with Doug, as far as I know a "common law" marriage requires
some extended time of (ahem) cohabitation.

Again, thanks to all of you for your comments and concern.

Martha

As far as registering a marriage- that is crazy! 90% of people in asia
never register! My mother and father did not even remember when they got
married. I had to register my marriage 4 yeaars after during immigarion.
In the US- people do it for "tax purposes" and other "legal issues related
to property". Why should one let the government know who is your life
partner anyway? What give the government any right to "approve" or
"disapprove"?
She is better off getting rid of the guy sooner than later! If she did this
after 2 more years- would that make you happier? no-- It is better to nip it
in the bud and not let some things grow. If it is better for your daughter's
life (according to her) it is better for you.
She is your daughter only until the teenage years- After that she is a grown
up buddy (may be not fully grown- but then- who is?)- So as a parent, it is
better to watch and enjoy. If she need help - help her. But there is no
need to get mad at her. I would say appreciate her to have gotten out of
the relationshsip quickly.

"Martha Emerson" <madcap2@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:vEYTb.36793$YG.2948819@twister.southeast.rr.c om... Hi to you nice people at asm. I'm a lurker who has enjoyed the group for several months and am impressed with your acumen, good will, and
occasional humor. May I please share a situation with you and ask your opinions?
There isn't anything really to be done, but I would like your reactions. Last May, my daughter, age 40, married a man whom she had dated for about
a year and a half. She was divorced from her two sons' father (who, dreadfully, has since had a heart attack that resulted in severe brain damage - so he is not an issue here.); thus the marriage to C was legit
and in a reasonable time frame. The wedding was a very small but sweet affair in a small church. She
looked lovely in a wedding dress - the dress my mother (her grandmother, of
course) had sewn many years ago for my neice, and the men did wear tux and there
was dulcimer music and a lovely cake and champagne, etc., etc. Several people flew in or drove from out of town and stayed - at their expense - at
motels, etc. So, it was a conventional wedding, and we all enjoyed it. This marriage has not worked out, and only last weekend she moved herself and the boys out of C's house into an apartment. So, of course, as her mother, I am concerned and worried about her and my grandsons. I mentioned to her to get separation agreement written to get the
legalities started, and - here we finally come to the punch line: she told me that
she and C have never filed their marriage license. In fact, C stuff wrote all over it and sent it to the State Office when they inquired about the disposition of the license. Indeed, they simply are not married, but are "committed" - what ever in
the hell that means. It seems that C got cold feet about a week before the wedding, and either she talked him into this make-believe ceremony or it
was a mutual decision, I don't know. (The only other good thing about it is that they had requested "no gifts," so we don't have that issue to gnash about.) I am grateful that since things are not working out, there are no legal difficulties here; that is a big relief. However, I am furious at the deception, and I guess this is where I am asking for your opinions. I
feel this was a gross subtefuge; I feel in a way that all of us were made fools of as we were supporting what we thought was a conventional marriage.
But, then, so what it was not a a conventional marriage. Does or should that detract from our good wishes and support for the happy couple? Isn't a traditional wedding just a Commitment after all? I don't know if the out-of-towners would have made the effort had the
known of the plan to only make a "Commitment," and I am now resenting my own rather generous gift to the happy couple. What do you think? Have any of your experienced anything like this? Is
my resentment unfair? Should I just try to laugh this off? Thanks for the shoulder. Martha

"Martha Emerson" <madcap2@nc.rr.com> wrote in message news:<vEYTb.36793$YG.2948819@twister.southeast.rr.com>...
I mentioned to her to get separation agreement written to get the legalities started, and - here we finally come to the punch line: she told me that she and C have never filed their marriage license. In fact, C stuff wrote all over it and sent it to the State Office when they inquired about the disposition of the license. Indeed, they simply are not married, but are "committed" - what ever in the hell that means. It seems that C got cold feet about a week before the wedding, and either she talked him into this make-believe ceremony or it was a mutual decision, I don't know.

I might be in the minority here, but my opinion on your daughter's
deception is that it's not all that bad, and could certainly have been
worse.

One thing that jumps out at me is that it appears she had the *intent*
to file the license. Otherwise, she wouldn't have the one she was
holding; she wouldn't have bothered getting the license to begin with,
and held a wedding ceremony anyway.

Apparently she had every intent to make it legal, but something
happened a week before the wedding that made her hesitate and hold off
filing. I imagine with guests coming and arrangements all made, she
might have felt pressure to go through with it and hope that the
issues would be resolved afterwards. Whatever it was, it never
resolved itself and less than a year later, she is separating. So her
instincts prevented her from making a bad mistake much worse.

To put this in perspective, I have a friend who's your daughter's age
and has been married twice, with kids from both those failed
marriages. She is now on her third relationship. He moved in with her
and her kids. Since they're old enough to question these things, she
and her boyfriend decided it was a good idea to go through the motions
of a wedding - for their sake, and appearances sake. They did not
bother with a license. She did tell her some (but not all) of her
friends that it was not a legal wedding; she basically lied to her
kids by basis of ommission.

My friend has a lot of hesitations about marriage to begin with. In
her view, by not making it legal she was safeguarding her kids
financial futures. I don't necessarily agree with that (she could have
gotten a prenup to protect their college education money, etc), but I
respect that it's her life and her decision. A year after the fake
marriage, my friend got pregnant and so they decided to make it legal
afterall. She eloped to Vegas without the kids.

I'm relating that story because I think compared to my friend, your
daughter's situation is more sympathetic. If she was my daughter, I'd
acknowledge that her intent was there, and be happy that she did
listen and trust her instincts before taking that last, final, legal
step.

jen

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 19:09:17 GMT, "Martha Emerson" <madcap2@nc.rr.com>
wrote:
And I agree with Doug, as far as I know a "common law" marriage requiressome extended time of (ahem) cohabitation.

It's something like 6 or 12 months in Ontario (I know, different
country).

Tara

On 4 Feb 2004 12:16:12 -0800, shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny)
wrote:
I might be in the minority here, but my opinion on your daughter'sdeception is that it's not all that bad, and could certainly have beenworse.

I'm with that minority. Otherwise, if any friends or family decide to
get married in the States or any other foreign country, I would feel
the need to follow up that they did register the marriage in our own
country.

I agree with shinypenny, your daughter had the intent, she just made a
unwise choice.

Forgive her, support her in trying times and keep Mum to all and
sundry. You would never have known yourself had the marriage worked
out.

Tara

Tara D <manderly@eol.ca> writes:
On 4 Feb 2004 12:16:12 -0800, shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) wrote:I might be in the minority here, but my opinion on your daughter'sdeception is that it's not all that bad, and could certainly have beenworse. I'm with that minority. Otherwise, if any friends or family decide to get married in the States or any other foreign country, I would feel the need to follow up that they did register the marriage in our own country.

The issue isn't the registration, but the deception.

A friend of mine got married in Texas and now lives in England. Now
it happens that England recognizes marriages in Texas, but it really
doesn't matter. When she got married in Texas, she didn't just
_pretend_ to get married in Texas!

Martha Emerson wrote:
Yeah, I'm confused about that too. I'm not really sure what she meant by his "writing all over" the license; I assumed he wrote VOID or something like that. This is really a sorry situation, and, to say the least, embarrassing. And I agree with Doug, as far as I know a "common law" marriage requires some extended time of (ahem) cohabitation. Again, thanks to all of you for your comments and concern.

I thought about this a bit more later and I had some questions about what
happens with a marriage licence wherever it is you live.

When I was married umpteen years ago we applied for a marriage licence at
the Registrar of Births, Deaths and Marriages. We had to supply our birth
certificates and if either of us had been married before we'd have had to
supply proof of divorce. The licence was valid for a certain period of time
and may actually have specified the date of the planned wedding. I do know
it required the address of the place and we could give an alternate venue
(useful for outdoor weddings that have to go indoors when it rains.)

In our case our wedding was held in a reception house but the format was
much the same as for a church wedding. We spoke our vows, were pronounced
married and then we signed our marriage certificates, our two witnesses
signed and then the marriage celebrant signed. Actually there were at least
two copies - ours and the one sent to the registrar. If we'd been married in
a church there would have been the church register as well. I vaguely
remember that the marriage celebrant brought his church register with him -
he was a Presbyterian minister -so we may have signed three copies. It was
his job to send in the completed marriage certificate for registration.

Anyway, the signing is done in public whether it's a church or civil
ceremony and the marriage is not legally recognised until that point. The
laws are a little different about the wheres and whens of the marriage where
I now live but that part remains the same. People would notice if no one
went off to the side immediately after the ceremony to complete the
paperwork!

Also, I can see a minister or priest performing a religious blessing for a
civilly married couple but here it would be very odd for a mainstream church
minister to perform a marriage ceremony without having all the paperwork
ready to go.

Do you not have a "signing the marriage certificate" part of the
proceedings?

Tai

"Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> writes:
Martha Emerson wrote: Yeah, I'm confused about that too. I'm not really sure what she meant by his "writing all over" the license; I assumed he wrote VOID or something like that. This is really a sorry situation, and, to say the least, embarrassing. And I agree with Doug, as far as I know a "common law" marriage requires some extended time of (ahem) cohabitation. Again, thanks to all of you for your comments and concern. I thought about this a bit more later and I had some questions about what happens with a marriage licence wherever it is you live. When I was married umpteen years ago we applied for a marriage licence at the Registrar of Births, Deaths and Marriages. We had to supply our birth certificates and if either of us had been married before we'd have had to supply proof of divorce. The licence was valid for a certain period of time and may actually have specified the date of the planned wedding. I do know it required the address of the place and we could give an alternate venue (useful for outdoor weddings that have to go indoors when it rains.) In our case our wedding was held in a reception house but the format was much the same as for a church wedding. We spoke our vows, were pronounced married and then we signed our marriage certificates, our two witnesses signed and then the marriage celebrant signed. Actually there were at least two copies - ours and the one sent to the registrar. If we'd been married in a church there would have been the church register as well. I vaguely remember that the marriage celebrant brought his church register with him - he was a Presbyterian minister -so we may have signed three copies. It was his job to send in the completed marriage certificate for registration. Anyway, the signing is done in public whether it's a church or civil ceremony and the marriage is not legally recognised until that point.

So in the US, I think public signing is the exception rather than the
rule. At any rate, I don't remember seeing this take place except
when I happened to be one of the witnesses.

The amusing thing about this thread to me is that although my wife and
I _are_ legally married, in 22 years, even for official things like
insurance and visas, _no one_ has ever asked for proof that we are
married.

Doug Anderson wrote:
So in the US, I think public signing is the exception rather than the rule. At any rate, I don't remember seeing this take place except when I happened to be one of the witnesses.

When do you sign, then? Before the ceremony or later? Do you go somewhere
else to do it? I have noticed when I've seen movie and TV US weddings that
there doesn't seem to be any paper in evidence!
The amusing thing about this thread to me is that although my wife and I _are_ legally married, in 22 years, even for official things like insurance and visas, _no one_ has ever asked for proof that we are married.

I think we took ours along when we applied for Australian citizenship but
that was because we brought every piece of official paperwork we had,
including cancelled passports. But I don't think we've ever been asked to
produce ours for anything in almost 23 years, either. I might have had to if
I hadn't kept my maiden name because sometimes a marriage certificate is
asked for to provide proof of name change.

Tai

"Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> writes:
Doug Anderson wrote: So in the US, I think public signing is the exception rather than the rule. At any rate, I don't remember seeing this take place except when I happened to be one of the witnesses. When do you sign, then? Before the ceremony or later?

Later, I think. My vagueness about this is evidence it hasn't made a
big impact on me!
The amusing thing about this thread to me is that although my wife and I _are_ legally married, in 22 years, even for official things like insurance and visas, _no one_ has ever asked for proof that we are married. I think we took ours along when we applied for Australian citizenship but that was because we brought every piece of official paperwork we had, including cancelled passports. But I don't think we've ever been asked to produce ours for anything in almost 23 years, either. I might have had to if I hadn't kept my maiden name because sometimes a marriage certificate is asked for to provide proof of name change.

My wife didn't change her name either; it may also be the case here
that if she had, a marriage certificate would have been helpful.

We've never changed citizenship, but we lived in another country where
my wife's visa was dependent on my status and on her being married to
me. No one even asked for evidence of marriage, even though she was
given a visa which allowed her to work.

Doug Anderson wrote: We've never changed citizenship, but we lived in another country where my wife's visa was dependent on my status and on her being married to me. No one even asked for evidence of marriage, even though she was given a visa which allowed her to work.

Wow! That seems very unusual given the amount of paperwork most governments
require for work permits.

Maybe your wife has an honest face. :))

Tai

"Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> writes:
Doug Anderson wrote: We've never changed citizenship, but we lived in another country where my wife's visa was dependent on my status and on her being married to me. No one even asked for evidence of marriage, even though she was given a visa which allowed her to work. Wow! That seems very unusual given the amount of paperwork most governments require for work permits. Maybe your wife has an honest face. :))

She does. But it isn't just her face. She has some
slightly-difficult-to-pin-down personal quality that makes people want
to help her even though she is both capable, and acts capable.

Another time we were abroad (in different countries), she lost _all_
of her identification. Passport, drivers license, credit cards, etc.

She went to the US consulate, who wanted someone to send a birth
certificate from home (out of luck since I was also out of the
country). Finally he just had a new passport made for her. On the
basis of zero idenfitification! [I think it helped that time that she
was 7.5 months pregnant.]

"Tara D" <manderly@eol.ca> wrote in message
news:21u220dv85cdi0q9dls5vptsupql31itg3@4ax.com... On 4 Feb 2004 12:16:12 -0800, shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) wrote:I might be in the minority here, but my opinion on your daughter'sdeception is that it's not all that bad, and could certainly have beenworse. I'm with that minority. Otherwise, if any friends or family decide to get married in the States or any other foreign country, I would feel the need to follow up that they did register the marriage in our own country. I agree with shinypenny, your daughter had the intent, she just made a
unwise choice.
Forgive her, support her in trying times and keep Mum to all and
sundry. You would never have known yourself had the marriage worked out. Tara

Yes, thank you, of course, it is very good that this pretend marriage did
not legally occur. As a point of interest, my daughter and I e-mail daily
and phone a couple of times a week, but you still don't get a complete
conversation this way. So I have pieced together the story as we have
progressed through this week, and the sham marriage is more understandable.

The upshot is that if I ever get near that scum C again, he is going to
learn how an old lady can cuss. And I do mean raise the roof. That
A--Hole dated her for 2 years, and began talking of marriage within 6 weeks
of the first date. They met at a large company in Wtown; which company
later laid off 1400 employees in one day, including (as you have already
guessed), both C and M (daughter). C eventually got a job in another state,
and M got a little job outside of her top-paying profession in Wtown. So C
is away and the lovers are unhappy.

They plan their wedding. M's Wtown house is sold, and C's house in Wtown is
put on the market as he is out of state, remember? So M moves into C's
house, which, OF COURSE, is sold almost the next day.

The wedding plans are progressing. M gives up her little job (despite her
Wise Mother's stringent urging not to), puts all her stuff and furniture
into storage, and moves out of C's house when it is closed into a bedroom -
with the 2 boys - at the house of generous friends for about the 6 weeks
until the end of the school year, the wedding, and the move to the New
State.

I mean this is one colossal mess and I, the mother and grandmother, am
aghast at the changes and the stress and the expense.

The wedding date approaches and the out-of-towners have made non-refundable
reservations, and blahblahblah. At this point, our Dear Groom questions
whether he really wants to get married and wonders if M is marrying him to
get a Sugar Daddy. (Can you believe this junk!). (I know, I am truly
wearing out your patience and, surely, your interest.) My dear daughter is
camping out with her two children, no job, everything in storage, guests
ready to come, her mother buys a lovely, special dress at no little $, and
so on. So this is why M talked C into the sham wedding. She truly felt she
had no choice at that point and hoped to convince him of her true love and
devotion.

The church is a Unitarian-Universalist, and they do out-of-the-box stuff, as
you may know. The UU minister understood the situation and had officiated
previously at just Committment ceremonies; so she went along with the Act.

I am much less upset now with the subdefuge, and my mother's heart is
breaking for the pain my little girl (oh, you are right, she is now my very
best friend) - but anyway, you never stop crying for your children, right?

I'm going to the New State tomorrow to help get her stuff out of his house
and to hug all of them. (He got fired from the new job at the first New
State and they are in the Second New State, having moved from his apartment
in NS into a house in NS and then into the second house in SNS. I hope he
chokes and gets fired and roasts in hell, I do.)

Whew. Thanks again for the shoulder.
Martha

Martha,

Some states have a timeline...others do not, and simply require admitting
before another person, that you are now common law husband and wife. Some
states do not recognize common law.

~Kimberlee

"Martha Emerson" <madcap2@nc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:xrbUb.56528$5K1.3508851@twister.southeast.rr. com...
:
: "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
: news:wjwu72pw1i.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu...
: > mbjq@earthlink.net (Emma Anne) writes:
: >
: > > Martha Emerson <madcap2@nc.rr.com> wrote:
: > >
: > > > I mentioned to her to get separation agreement written to get the
: legalities
: > > > started, and - here we finally come to the punch line: she told me
: that she
: > > > and C have never filed their marriage license. In fact, C stuff
wrote
: all
: > > > over it and sent it to the State Office when they inquired about the
: > > > disposition of the license.
: > >
: > > Martha, are you absolutely sure there won't be any legal difficulties?
: > > I can't tell where you are from - is there some sort of common law
: > > marriage law?
: >
: > They weren't together long enough for common law to kick in anyplace I
: > know about.
: >
: > > Also, I am not getting what you mean when you say "C
: > > stuff wrote all over it and sent it to the State Office"? Does that
: > > mean it was filed in some manner?
: >
: > Yeah, I'm confused about that too.
:
: I'm not really sure what she meant by his "writing all over" the license;
I
: assumed he wrote VOID or something like that. This is really a sorry
: situation, and, to say the least, embarrassing.
:
: And I agree with Doug, as far as I know a "common law" marriage requires
: some extended time of (ahem) cohabitation.
:
: Again, thanks to all of you for your comments and concern.
:
: Martha
:
:

Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote:
mbjq@earthlink.net (Emma Anne) writes: Martha Emerson <madcap2@nc.rr.com> wrote: I mentioned to her to get separation agreement written to get the legalities started, and - here we finally come to the punch line: she told me that she and C have never filed their marriage license. In fact, C stuff wrote all over it and sent it to the State Office when they inquired about the disposition of the license. Martha, are you absolutely sure there won't be any legal difficulties? I can't tell where you are from - is there some sort of common law marriage law? They weren't together long enough for common law to kick in anyplace I know about.

No, you don't want to count on that. In Colorado, there is *no* time
requirement. You hold yourself out as married, and you have the intent
to be married, and you *are* married. They warn the students about
that, because if they pretend to be married in order to get married
student housing, they are in a world of legal trouble.

The daughter ought to see a lawyer if there is *any* doubt. Some places
don't hve common law marriage at all, but the ones that do have all
different requirements. And there is no such thing as common law
divorce.

shinypenny <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote:
My friend has a lot of hesitations about marriage to begin with. In her view, by not making it legal she was safeguarding her kids financial futures. I don't necessarily agree with that (she could have gotten a prenup to protect their college education money, etc), but I respect that it's her life and her decision. A year after the fake marriage, my friend got pregnant and so they decided to make it legal afterall. She eloped to Vegas without the kids.

I'm glad to hear this, because my common-law-marriage alarms were going
off again!

mbjq@earthlink.net (Emma Anne) writes:
Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote: mbjq@earthlink.net (Emma Anne) writes: Martha Emerson <madcap2@nc.rr.com> wrote: > I mentioned to her to get separation agreement written to get the > legalities started, and - here we finally come to the punch line: she > told me that she and C have never filed their marriage license. In > fact, C stuff wrote all over it and sent it to the State Office when > they inquired about the disposition of the license. Martha, are you absolutely sure there won't be any legal difficulties? I can't tell where you are from - is there some sort of common law marriage law? They weren't together long enough for common law to kick in anyplace I know about. No, you don't want to count on that. In Colorado, there is *no* time requirement. You hold yourself out as married, and you have the intent to be married, and you *are* married. They warn the students about that, because if they pretend to be married in order to get married student housing, they are in a world of legal trouble. The daughter ought to see a lawyer if there is *any* doubt. Some places don't hve common law marriage at all, but the ones that do have all different requirements. And there is no such thing as common law divorce.

So how would this play out in their scenario (that is, if they had a
valid common-law marriage)? Presumably this would only come up if he
wanted custody of her children, or if one of them wanted financial
support from the other, no? I suppose it could also affect property
acquired while they were together. Or worse, acquired after they
separated since they may still be married!

Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote:
mbjq@earthlink.net (Emma Anne) writes: Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote: mbjq@earthlink.net (Emma Anne) writes:

(snip)
No, you don't want to count on that. In Colorado, there is *no* time requirement. You hold yourself out as married, and you have the intent to be married, and you *are* married. They warn the students about that, because if they pretend to be married in order to get married student housing, they are in a world of legal trouble. The daughter ought to see a lawyer if there is *any* doubt. Some places don't hve common law marriage at all, but the ones that do have all different requirements. And there is no such thing as common law divorce. So how would this play out in their scenario (that is, if they had a valid common-law marriage)? Presumably this would only come up if he wanted custody of her children, or if one of them wanted financial support from the other, no? I suppose it could also affect property acquired while they were together. Or worse, acquired after they separated since they may still be married!

And don't forget life insurance, survivors benefits at work, social
security, disability, inheritance. Also bigamy and presumed fatherhood.
Marriage is a very complicated thing, legally (as well as other ways, I
guess).

And it turns out that when there is money involved (like life insurance)
suddenly the survivor often decides they really *were* married.