Something interesting came out of the thread that I started about
emailing ex-boyfriends. I told my husband the themes that played out
in asm regarding my question. I was honest and told him that most
people thought that it was wrong. He said that he wasn't really
telling me that it was wrong, he simply compared it to the fact that I
told him that I didn't appreciate that he went to a matchmaking site.
So he sort of tit for tatted me. I then asked him if he trusted me.
He said yes. I asked him if I have ever done anything in our years
together that violated that trust. He said no. I told him that that
is why this whole thing felt so crappy to me.

I have very real reasons not to trust him and so his looking on a
matchmaking site bothered me. He has violated my trust many times and
I spend a lot of energy working on learning to trust him again. He
knows this. However on this issue he feels strongly that he did
nothing wrong. He admitted it was stupid. He didn't go to meet
anyone and blah blah blah. I disagreed with him and said that if it
wasn't wrong, then why didn't you just tell me? It was a silly
conversation because while he was admitting it was stupid he wasn't
being accountable for it being related to all of the past issues.

We agreed to disagree on the issue, but he isn't really bothered by my
emailing other guys.

HOwever, what I really learned is how easily things get misinterpreted
and how easy it is to be judgemental when giving others advice. I'm
sure I have done it and I saw it done to me. I understand why people
leave or just stay quiet in newsgroups. I can't think of specific
things that were said and I'm totally not going to go through the
thread, but not only were there misinterpreations made but there were
many things that were way off, as things kind of went off on a
tangent. I can see how a newsgroup can really help and I can also see
how it can hurt a person as well.

Being in the hot seat has really given me a different perspective and
seeing the strong opinions of some posters has opened my eyes a bit
also.

Something else that I learned recently about love and marriage from
Urf, is that I value independence as much as I value being in a
relationship. I don't have the kind of marriage that he has and at
times, it sounds incredibly awesome. Yet, I don't have the fears (for
lack of a better word) that if my spouse dies, I will die. I have
watched many people crumble after their spouse is dies due to not
having a life independent of the marriage. I NEVER want to be so
dependent on anyone for that reason. Not my kids, not my spouse, not
even my sister who is my true soulmate.

I'm sure that I miss out on some of the good stuff that Urf enjoys in
his marriage. I'm also pretty sure that I won't have the kind of pain
that he'll have if he survives his wife. Could it been seen as
avoiding pain by not loving too much? It's a possiblity. I also
think it might be simply the way that me and my two sisters learned
about marriage. We did not have good role models -all 3 of us have
one divorce and my parents divorced when we were adults.

I don't know, I have really been thinking about this issue a lot
lately. I learned to be independent when I saw that I wasn't going to
get the love from my parents. What a lesson to teach a child! I want
my daughter to learn that independence but I also want her to be able
to love and not be afraid.

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0402021248.2709abfa@posting.google.c om... Something interesting came out of the thread that I started about emailing ex-boyfriends. I told my husband the themes that played out in asm regarding my question. I was honest and told him that most people thought that it was wrong. He said that he wasn't really telling me that it was wrong, he simply compared it to the fact that I told him that I didn't appreciate that he went to a matchmaking site. So he sort of tit for tatted me. I then asked him if he trusted me. He said yes. I asked him if I have ever done anything in our years together that violated that trust. He said no. I told him that that is why this whole thing felt so crappy to me. I have very real reasons not to trust him and so his looking on a matchmaking site bothered me. He has violated my trust many times and I spend a lot of energy working on learning to trust him again. He knows this. However on this issue he feels strongly that he did nothing wrong. He admitted it was stupid. He didn't go to meet anyone and blah blah blah. I disagreed with him and said that if it wasn't wrong, then why didn't you just tell me? It was a silly conversation because while he was admitting it was stupid he wasn't being accountable for it being related to all of the past issues. We agreed to disagree on the issue, but he isn't really bothered by my emailing other guys. HOwever, what I really learned is how easily things get misinterpreted and how easy it is to be judgemental when giving others advice. I'm sure I have done it and I saw it done to me. I understand why people leave or just stay quiet in newsgroups. I can't think of specific things that were said and I'm totally not going to go through the thread, but not only were there misinterpreations made but there were many things that were way off, as things kind of went off on a tangent. I can see how a newsgroup can really help and I can also see how it can hurt a person as well. Being in the hot seat has really given me a different perspective and seeing the strong opinions of some posters has opened my eyes a bit also. Something else that I learned recently about love and marriage from Urf, is that I value independence as much as I value being in a relationship. I don't have the kind of marriage that he has and at times, it sounds incredibly awesome. Yet, I don't have the fears (for lack of a better word) that if my spouse dies, I will die. I have watched many people crumble after their spouse is dies due to not having a life independent of the marriage. I NEVER want to be so dependent on anyone for that reason. Not my kids, not my spouse, not even my sister who is my true soulmate. I'm sure that I miss out on some of the good stuff that Urf enjoys in his marriage. I'm also pretty sure that I won't have the kind of pain that he'll have if he survives his wife. Could it been seen as avoiding pain by not loving too much? It's a possiblity. I also think it might be simply the way that me and my two sisters learned about marriage. We did not have good role models -all 3 of us have one divorce and my parents divorced when we were adults. I don't know, I have really been thinking about this issue a lot lately. I learned to be independent when I saw that I wasn't going to get the love from my parents. What a lesson to teach a child! I want my daughter to learn that independence but I also want her to be able to love and not be afraid.

I want to reread this and I think you have touched on some good insights
(as is your way) but I also wanted to respond because you mentioned me.

I am devoted to Estelle. I also would thrive if she passed before me.
I hope an expect that Estelle would be happy with life after me too.

My own mother was my example but I knew this inside. I knew it before
she demonstrated it.

My mother remarried when she was in her 70's. She was a newly wed
and acted the part. No one who knew her or her 2nd husband Charlie
would doubt their love for each other for even one second. They
glowed when they were together.

What my mother taught me was that love is a capacity. The volume
of love stored inside you is with you always and you can give it
or not at any time. It can be a deep well or just a cupful but it is yours.

I plan on dying before Estelle for a lot of reasons. I threaten to
"bring a date" to her funeral if she goes first.

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:ToATb.6838$IF1.6192@nwrdny03.gnilink.net... "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message news:3754f0b3.0402021248.2709abfa@posting.google.c om... Something interesting came out of the thread that I started about emailing ex-boyfriends. I told my husband the themes that played out in asm regarding my question. I was honest and told him that most people thought that it was wrong. He said that he wasn't really telling me that it was wrong, he simply compared it to the fact that I told him that I didn't appreciate that he went to a matchmaking site. So he sort of tit for tatted me. I then asked him if he trusted me. He said yes. I asked him if I have ever done anything in our years together that violated that trust. He said no. I told him that that is why this whole thing felt so crappy to me. I have very real reasons not to trust him and so his looking on a matchmaking site bothered me. He has violated my trust many times and I spend a lot of energy working on learning to trust him again. He knows this. However on this issue he feels strongly that he did nothing wrong. He admitted it was stupid. He didn't go to meet anyone and blah blah blah. I disagreed with him and said that if it wasn't wrong, then why didn't you just tell me? It was a silly conversation because while he was admitting it was stupid he wasn't being accountable for it being related to all of the past issues. We agreed to disagree on the issue, but he isn't really bothered by my emailing other guys. HOwever, what I really learned is how easily things get misinterpreted and how easy it is to be judgemental when giving others advice. I'm sure I have done it and I saw it done to me. I understand why people leave or just stay quiet in newsgroups. I can't think of specific things that were said and I'm totally not going to go through the thread, but not only were there misinterpreations made but there were many things that were way off, as things kind of went off on a tangent. I can see how a newsgroup can really help and I can also see how it can hurt a person as well. Being in the hot seat has really given me a different perspective and seeing the strong opinions of some posters has opened my eyes a bit also. Something else that I learned recently about love and marriage from Urf, is that I value independence as much as I value being in a relationship. I don't have the kind of marriage that he has and at times, it sounds incredibly awesome. Yet, I don't have the fears (for lack of a better word) that if my spouse dies, I will die. I have watched many people crumble after their spouse is dies due to not having a life independent of the marriage. I NEVER want to be so dependent on anyone for that reason. Not my kids, not my spouse, not even my sister who is my true soulmate. I'm sure that I miss out on some of the good stuff that Urf enjoys in his marriage. I'm also pretty sure that I won't have the kind of pain that he'll have if he survives his wife. Could it been seen as avoiding pain by not loving too much? It's a possiblity. I also think it might be simply the way that me and my two sisters learned about marriage. We did not have good role models -all 3 of us have one divorce and my parents divorced when we were adults. I don't know, I have really been thinking about this issue a lot lately. I learned to be independent when I saw that I wasn't going to get the love from my parents. What a lesson to teach a child! I want my daughter to learn that independence but I also want her to be able to love and not be afraid. I want to reread this and I think you have touched on some good insights (as is your way) but I also wanted to respond because you mentioned me. I am devoted to Estelle. I also would thrive if she passed before me. I hope an expect that Estelle would be happy with life after me too. My own mother was my example but I knew this inside. I knew it before she demonstrated it. My mother remarried when she was in her 70's. She was a newly wed and acted the part. No one who knew her or her 2nd husband Charlie would doubt their love for each other for even one second. They glowed when they were together. What my mother taught me was that love is a capacity. The volume of love stored inside you is with you always and you can give it or not at any time. It can be a deep well or just a cupful but it is
yours. I plan on dying before Estelle for a lot of reasons. I threaten to "bring a date" to her funeral if she goes first.

I agree with you - I would grieve my wife, but I would live a full life
afterwards. I don't know how my wife would handle life after my dying -
maybe not quite as well as I would handle her dying.

>I agree with you - I would grieve my wife, but I would live a full lifeafterwards. I don't know how my wife would handle life after my dying -maybe not quite as well as I would handle her dying.

I would be willing to bet $10,000 that my husband would never leave me. I
would also be willing to bet that much that, if I should die tomorrow, he'd be
"attached" again by New Year's Eve. ;-)

My husband is a man who needs a companion in life. He doesn't like the single
life. He'd be very unhappy to spend his life alone. I don't think that he'd
find someone to be with detracts from our relationship. Part of the reason
that he *would* marry again is that he enjoys the "us-ness" that we have
together.

I suspect I'd pretty much be the same if he died.

Sheila

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0402021248.2709abfa@posting.google.c om...
I'm sure that I miss out on some of the good stuff that Urf enjoys in his marriage. I'm also pretty sure that I won't have the kind of pain that he'll have if he survives his wife. Could it been seen as avoiding pain by not loving too much? It's a possiblity. I also think it might be simply the way that me and my two sisters learned about marriage.

It might also be inherent in your personalities. Some people just seem to
have a strong independent streak in their gene pool.

Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0402021248.2709abfa@posting.google.c om... Something interesting came out of the thread that I started about emailing ex-boyfriends. I told my husband the themes that played out in asm regarding my question. I was honest and told him that most people thought that it was wrong. He said that he wasn't really telling me that it was wrong, he simply compared it to the fact that I told him that I didn't appreciate that he went to a matchmaking site. So he sort of tit for tatted me. I then asked him if he trusted me. He said yes. I asked him if I have ever done anything in our years together that violated that trust. He said no. I told him that that is why this whole thing felt so crappy to me. I have very real reasons not to trust him and so his looking on a matchmaking site bothered me. He has violated my trust many times and I spend a lot of energy working on learning to trust him again. He knows this. However on this issue he feels strongly that he did nothing wrong. He admitted it was stupid. He didn't go to meet anyone and blah blah blah. I disagreed with him and said that if it wasn't wrong, then why didn't you just tell me? It was a silly conversation because while he was admitting it was stupid he wasn't being accountable for it being related to all of the past issues. We agreed to disagree on the issue, but he isn't really bothered by my emailing other guys.


Him going to a matchmaking site is kinda a problerm, and agreeing to
disagree... well, if you're comfy with that, ok.

HOwever, what I really learned is how easily things get misinterpreted and how easy it is to be judgemental when giving others advice. I'm sure I have done it and I saw it done to me. I understand why people leave or just stay quiet in newsgroups. I can't think of specific things that were said and I'm totally not going to go through the thread, but not only were there misinterpreations made but there were many things that were way off, as things kind of went off on a tangent. I can see how a newsgroup can really help and I can also see how it can hurt a person as well. Being in the hot seat has really given me a different perspective and seeing the strong opinions of some posters has opened my eyes a bit also.


That's kinda what we all do here, though - and think about it - if we just
stuck to the issue and didn't go deeper, the truck and matchmaking thing
would not have come out, so i think the nitpicking is helpful.


Something else that I learned recently about love and marriage from Urf, is that I value independence as much as I value being in a relationship. I don't have the kind of marriage that he has and at times, it sounds incredibly awesome. Yet, I don't have the fears (for lack of a better word) that if my spouse dies, I will die. I have watched many people crumble after their spouse is dies due to not having a life independent of the marriage. I NEVER want to be so dependent on anyone for that reason. Not my kids, not my spouse, not even my sister who is my true soulmate.


But those of us who have "that kind" of marriage (I'd like to think I do)
don't seem to feel that way. At least I don't.

I'm sure that I miss out on some of the good stuff that Urf enjoys in his marriage. I'm also pretty sure that I won't have the kind of pain that he'll have if he survives his wife.


Now perhaps that could be. Losing my wife is the worst thing I can imagine.
But I am strong, and I know I would eventually move on.

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote I have very real reasons not to trust him and so his looking on a matchmaking site bothered me. He has violated my trust many times and I spend a lot of energy working on learning to trust him again. He knows this. However on this issue he feels strongly that he did nothing wrong. He admitted it was stupid. He didn't go to meet anyone and blah blah blah. I disagreed with him and said that if it wasn't wrong, then why didn't you just tell me? It was a silly conversation because while he was admitting it was stupid he wasn't being accountable for it being related to all of the past issues.

I have convos like this with my husband. Just yesterday I noticed a hole in
the back of my car. I asked him if he had seen it. He said he caused it.
"Oh" I said. I waited and hoped for an apology but instead I got "don't
think I am gonna say sorry after the way you just criticised me". Men!
HOwever, what I really learned is how easily things get misinterpreted and how easy it is to be judgemental when giving others advice. I'm sure I have done it and I saw it done to me. I understand why people leave or just stay quiet in newsgroups. I can't think of specific things that were said and I'm totally not going to go through the thread, but not only were there misinterpreations made but there were many things that were way off, as things kind of went off on a tangent. I can see how a newsgroup can really help and I can also see how it can hurt a person as well.

This is true. I cope by taking it all with a grain of salt. Advice here can
make great food for thought and it can be very beneficial but you are right
it can also be way off the beam and be a complete waste of time.
I don't know, I have really been thinking about this issue a lot lately. I learned to be independent when I saw that I wasn't going to get the love from my parents. What a lesson to teach a child! I want my daughter to learn that independence but I also want her to be able to love and not be afraid.

I think marriage and independence don't really go together. It's like
wanting your cake and wanting to eat your cake, you know?

Amy

caren50@msn.com (Caren) wrote in message news:<3754f0b3.0402021248.2709abfa@posting.google.com>...
Something else that I learned recently about love and marriage from Urf, is that I value independence as much as I value being in a relationship. I don't have the kind of marriage that he has and at times, it sounds incredibly awesome. Yet, I don't have the fears (for lack of a better word) that if my spouse dies, I will die. I have watched many people crumble after their spouse is dies due to not having a life independent of the marriage. I NEVER want to be so dependent on anyone for that reason. Not my kids, not my spouse, not even my sister who is my true soulmate.

Caren,

I'm thinking that if you could completely, 100% trust your husband,
that would utterly terrify you and send you off in a panic! Maybe
that's why you're in this particular relationship. You only need trust
him as much as your fears will allow.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that; we often intuitively
know what's best for us and seek it out in our partners. Marriage is a
process - an evolution towards greater intimacy - but that evolution
proceeds along gradual, baby steps that are only slightly bigger than
the relationship can handle at any point in time.

I suspect your husband is similar to you in this regard. I would bet
that the times when he's transgressed and done these stupid things,
are precisely the times when your relationship was increasingly
intimate and getting scary for him.

I think people like Urf tend to look intimacy straight in the face,
and embrace it with open arms. Seems that way to me. I'm not quite
like that myself. I think sometimes it's safer to turn my head away
and kinda inch forward tentatively. Every now and then I do manage to
make a big leap and faith, but usually it's with my eyes squinted shut
and bracing for a potentially violent impact. :-)

As long as you and your hubby are moving along at essentially the same
pace (taken into account all the
backward/forward/two-steps/step-on-toes along the way), then I'd say
your marriage was healthy and serving its purpose for you both.

jen

"Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:<IGGTb.40456$Wa.29677@news-server.bigpond.net.au>... "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote I have very real reasons not to trust him and so his looking on a matchmaking site bothered me. He has violated my trust many times and I spend a lot of energy working on learning to trust him again. He knows this. However on this issue he feels strongly that he did nothing wrong. He admitted it was stupid. He didn't go to meet anyone and blah blah blah. I disagreed with him and said that if it wasn't wrong, then why didn't you just tell me? It was a silly conversation because while he was admitting it was stupid he wasn't being accountable for it being related to all of the past issues. I have convos like this with my husband. Just yesterday I noticed a hole in the back of my car. I asked him if he had seen it. He said he caused it. "Oh" I said. I waited and hoped for an apology but instead I got "don't think I am gonna say sorry after the way you just criticised me". Men! HOwever, what I really learned is how easily things get misinterpreted and how easy it is to be judgemental when giving others advice. I'm sure I have done it and I saw it done to me. I understand why people leave or just stay quiet in newsgroups. I can't think of specific things that were said and I'm totally not going to go through the thread, but not only were there misinterpreations made but there were many things that were way off, as things kind of went off on a tangent. I can see how a newsgroup can really help and I can also see how it can hurt a person as well. This is true. I cope by taking it all with a grain of salt. Advice here can make great food for thought and it can be very beneficial but you are right it can also be way off the beam and be a complete waste of time. I don't know, I have really been thinking about this issue a lot lately. I learned to be independent when I saw that I wasn't going to get the love from my parents. What a lesson to teach a child! I want my daughter to learn that independence but I also want her to be able to love and not be afraid. I think marriage and independence don't really go together. It's like wanting your cake and wanting to eat your cake, you know? Amy


I know couples that can't say "I" went. It's always, "we" went. Some
couples work together and play together. The older I get, the more I
value time alone. I do love my husband and my children, I simply
require alone and quiet time. My husband and I have many differences
such as in movies, music, food and friends. He loves sports and I
can't stand them. He spends lots of time watching them or attending
sporting events with our daughter and that gives me the time to be
alone. His mom doesn't understand why I don't go to baseball games
with him. Why would I go if I'm not interested in baseball??? He
doesn't have a lot of friends, I'm a social butterfly (when I'm in the
mood). We do have things in common and do things together but I we
are not one of those couples that need to hang onto or hang out with
with each other to feel complete.

I don't see wanting independence in a marriage as having my cake and
eating it too! Perhaps if we lived in two different houses and
remained married it might be. We're just not as intertwined as other
couples are. I have nothing against those that seemed joined at the
hip, I just know that that is not for me. The kind that finish each
other's sentences :-) (although my sister and I do that)

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in I know couples that can't say "I" went. It's always, "we" went. Some couples work together and play together. The older I get, the more I value time alone. I do love my husband and my children, I simply require alone and quiet time. My husband and I have many differences such as in movies, music, food and friends. He loves sports and I can't stand them. He spends lots of time watching them or attending sporting events with our daughter and that gives me the time to be alone. His mom doesn't understand why I don't go to baseball games with him. Why would I go if I'm not interested in baseball??? He doesn't have a lot of friends, I'm a social butterfly (when I'm in the mood). We do have things in common and do things together but I we are not one of those couples that need to hang onto or hang out with with each other to feel complete.
OK so you see independence as spending time separately? I would not like to
spend ALL my time with my husband either. I think this is really about
differentiation.
I don't see wanting independence in a marriage as having my cake and eating it too! Perhaps if we lived in two different houses and remained married it might be. We're just not as intertwined as other couples are. I have nothing against those that seemed joined at the hip, I just know that that is not for me. The kind that finish each other's sentences :-) (although my sister and I do that)

What I meant was we cannot make a decision without it affecting our partner.
True independence means you can buy what you want when you want, you can
email whoever you want, you can go to bed whenever you want, you can go out
whenever you want, invite whoever you want over, eat whatever you want etc
etc. In this sense marriage and independence do not go together. A lot of
our decisions need the blessing of our spouse whether they are about just us
(I want to go out to visit my friend, do you mind?) or the two of us (what
will we have for dinner tonight?)

Amy

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0402031339.3c20f047@posting.google.c om... "Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:<IGGTb.40456$Wa.29677@news-server.bigpond.net.au>... "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote I have very real reasons not to trust him and so his looking on a matchmaking site bothered me. He has violated my trust many times and I spend a lot of energy working on learning to trust him again. He knows this. However on this issue he feels strongly that he did nothing wrong. He admitted it was stupid. He didn't go to meet anyone and blah blah blah. I disagreed with him and said that if it wasn't wrong, then why didn't you just tell me? It was a silly conversation because while he was admitting it was stupid he wasn't being accountable for it being related to all of the past issues. I have convos like this with my husband. Just yesterday I noticed a hole
in the back of my car. I asked him if he had seen it. He said he caused it. "Oh" I said. I waited and hoped for an apology but instead I got "don't think I am gonna say sorry after the way you just criticised me". Men! HOwever, what I really learned is how easily things get misinterpreted and how easy it is to be judgemental when giving others advice. I'm sure I have done it and I saw it done to me. I understand why people leave or just stay quiet in newsgroups. I can't think of specific things that were said and I'm totally not going to go through the thread, but not only were there misinterpreations made but there were many things that were way off, as things kind of went off on a tangent. I can see how a newsgroup can really help and I can also see how it can hurt a person as well. This is true. I cope by taking it all with a grain of salt. Advice here
can make great food for thought and it can be very beneficial but you are
right it can also be way off the beam and be a complete waste of time. I don't know, I have really been thinking about this issue a lot lately. I learned to be independent when I saw that I wasn't going to get the love from my parents. What a lesson to teach a child! I want my daughter to learn that independence but I also want her to be able to love and not be afraid. I think marriage and independence don't really go together. It's like wanting your cake and wanting to eat your cake, you know? Amy I know couples that can't say "I" went. It's always, "we" went. Some couples work together and play together. The older I get, the more I value time alone. I do love my husband and my children, I simply require alone and quiet time. My husband and I have many differences such as in movies, music, food and friends. He loves sports and I can't stand them. He spends lots of time watching them or attending sporting events with our daughter and that gives me the time to be alone. His mom doesn't understand why I don't go to baseball games with him. Why would I go if I'm not interested in baseball??? He doesn't have a lot of friends, I'm a social butterfly (when I'm in the mood). We do have things in common and do things together but I we are not one of those couples that need to hang onto or hang out with with each other to feel complete.


You almost sound like you are "justifying" your way of life by
ever-so-slightly belittiling what you see as "the other side". You are being
very black and white here. My wife and I have a great marriage, we truly
feel we are "we", yet we have plenty of time alone and enjoy things without
the other. I think most couples who feel they are "we" do it that way.

I don't see wanting independence in a marriage as having my cake and eating it too! Perhaps if we lived in two different houses and remained married it might be. We're just not as intertwined as other couples are. I have nothing against those that seemed joined at the hip, I just know that that is not for me. The kind that finish each other's sentences :-) (although my sister and I do that)

So you *are* capable of that kind of relationship. Just not with a husband.

JWB

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0402031251.164850cf@posting.google.c om... caren50@msn.com (Caren) wrote in message
news:<3754f0b3.0402021248.2709abfa@posting.google.com>... Something else that I learned recently about love and marriage from Urf, is that I value independence as much as I value being in a relationship. I don't have the kind of marriage that he has and at times, it sounds incredibly awesome. Yet, I don't have the fears (for lack of a better word) that if my spouse dies, I will die. I have watched many people crumble after their spouse is dies due to not having a life independent of the marriage. I NEVER want to be so dependent on anyone for that reason. Not my kids, not my spouse, not even my sister who is my true soulmate. Caren, I'm thinking that if you could completely, 100% trust your husband, that would utterly terrify you and send you off in a panic! Maybe that's why you're in this particular relationship. You only need trust him as much as your fears will allow.

Wow. A very interesting take.
I don't think there's anything wrong with that; we often intuitively know what's best for us and seek it out in our partners. Marriage is a process - an evolution towards greater intimacy - but that evolution proceeds along gradual, baby steps that are only slightly bigger than the relationship can handle at any point in time. I suspect your husband is similar to you in this regard. I would bet that the times when he's transgressed and done these stupid things, are precisely the times when your relationship was increasingly intimate and getting scary for him. I think people like Urf tend to look intimacy straight in the face, and embrace it with open arms. Seems that way to me. I'm not quite like that myself. I think sometimes it's safer to turn my head away and kinda inch forward tentatively. Every now and then I do manage to make a big leap and faith, but usually it's with my eyes squinted shut and bracing for a potentially violent impact. :-)

I do not take credit for the demonstrated high quality relationship that
I am part of. I credit Estelle. She is so open and giving that it
becomes my shame when I do not or can not match her positive
energy. We exist in symbiosis.
As long as you and your hubby are moving along at essentially the same pace (taken into account all the backward/forward/two-steps/step-on-toes along the way), then I'd say your marriage was healthy and serving its purpose for you both. jen

"JWB" <nospam1112@nowhere.com> writes:
"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message news:3754f0b3.0402031339.3c20f047@posting.google.c om... (snip) I know couples that can't say "I" went. It's always, "we" went. Some couples work together and play together. The older I get, the more I value time alone. I do love my husband and my children, I simply require alone and quiet time. My husband and I have many differences such as in movies, music, food and friends. He loves sports and I can't stand them. He spends lots of time watching them or attending sporting events with our daughter and that gives me the time to be alone. His mom doesn't understand why I don't go to baseball games with him. Why would I go if I'm not interested in baseball??? He doesn't have a lot of friends, I'm a social butterfly (when I'm in the mood). We do have things in common and do things together but I we are not one of those couples that need to hang onto or hang out with with each other to feel complete. You almost sound like you are "justifying" your way of life by ever-so-slightly belittiling what you see as "the other side". You are being very black and white here. My wife and I have a great marriage, we truly feel we are "we", yet we have plenty of time alone and enjoy things without the other. I think most couples who feel they are "we" do it that way.

I'm not sure if I think Caren is being belittling. But I think she is
creating a false dichotomy. There are more than the two choices
"value some independence" vs. "joined at the hip."

I have to say that I treasure my alone time more than most people I
know, but I'm also _very_ happy to be able to spend time with my
wife. We have lots of "we's" and we (each) also have lots of "I's."

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:peu127zsv0.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu... "JWB" <nospam1112@nowhere.com> writes: "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message news:3754f0b3.0402031339.3c20f047@posting.google.c om... (snip) I know couples that can't say "I" went. It's always, "we" went. Some couples work together and play together. The older I get, the more I value time alone. I do love my husband and my children, I simply require alone and quiet time. My husband and I have many differences such as in movies, music, food and friends. He loves sports and I can't stand them. He spends lots of time watching them or attending sporting events with our daughter and that gives me the time to be alone. His mom doesn't understand why I don't go to baseball games with him. Why would I go if I'm not interested in baseball??? He doesn't have a lot of friends, I'm a social butterfly (when I'm in the mood). We do have things in common and do things together but I we are not one of those couples that need to hang onto or hang out with with each other to feel complete. You almost sound like you are "justifying" your way of life by ever-so-slightly belittiling what you see as "the other side". You are
being very black and white here. My wife and I have a great marriage, we truly feel we are "we", yet we have plenty of time alone and enjoy things
without the other. I think most couples who feel they are "we" do it that way. I'm not sure if I think Caren is being belittling. But I think she is creating a false dichotomy. There are more than the two choices "value some independence" vs. "joined at the hip."

Yea, that's kinda what I mean by her being so black and white.

I dunno... belittle might be a bad word, but I'm reading into the meaning as
"here's what we do, and by golly, you know, it's good. Not like those others
who *have* to be with each other".

It's almost like she's trying to convince herself, in a way.

I have to say that I treasure my alone time more than most people I know, but I'm also _very_ happy to be able to spend time with my wife. We have lots of "we's" and we (each) also have lots of "I's."

Us too.

"JWB" <nospam1112@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:<hfVTb.118520$cM1.21285138@twister.nyc.rr.com>...
I don't see wanting independence in a marriage as having my cake and eating it too! Perhaps if we lived in two different houses and remained married it might be. We're just not as intertwined as other couples are. I have nothing against those that seemed joined at the hip, I just know that that is not for me. The kind that finish each other's sentences :-) (although my sister and I do that) So you *are* capable of that kind of relationship. Just not with a husband. JWB

Yes, but she doesn't have to live 24/7 with her sister!

I think I get what Caren is saying. She's saying she wouldn't be
comfortable having a partner who is constantly hanging all over her
and tagging after her, someone who's too needy and dependent and
requires too much attention, someone who's entire identity is wrapped
up in her own. THAT (particularly the last part) is too overwhelming.
At least, it would be for me.

The irony of the whole thing is that Mr Caren's untrustworthy actions
kinda want to force Caren into acting as the needy one in the
relationship. To prevent further transgressions, she might feel like
she's got to constantly monitor him, hang over him, tag after him. Why
would she want to prevent further transgressions? Because his actions
are a direct reflection on her. This is just the nature of marriage -
our identities become intertwined in other's minds if not our own.

My take? Caren's rejection of "joined at the hip" couples is very
healthy given her current situation. It's a self-defense mechanism
designed to help her step back and away from her husband and his
actions. As she should - his actions are his to own, and it's not
going to help the relationship or her sanity if she feels she has to
constantly watch him.

To get from codependent to interdependent it's pretty normal to go
through independent along the way.

jen

Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<peu127zsv0.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu>... "JWB" <nospam1112@nowhere.com> writes: "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message news:3754f0b3.0402031339.3c20f047@posting.google.c om... (snip) I know couples that can't say "I" went. It's always, "we" went. Some couples work together and play together. The older I get, the more I value time alone. I do love my husband and my children, I simply require alone and quiet time. My husband and I have many differences such as in movies, music, food and friends. He loves sports and I can't stand them. He spends lots of time watching them or attending sporting events with our daughter and that gives me the time to be alone. His mom doesn't understand why I don't go to baseball games with him. Why would I go if I'm not interested in baseball??? He doesn't have a lot of friends, I'm a social butterfly (when I'm in the mood). We do have things in common and do things together but I we are not one of those couples that need to hang onto or hang out with with each other to feel complete. You almost sound like you are "justifying" your way of life by ever-so-slightly belittiling what you see as "the other side". You are being very black and white here. My wife and I have a great marriage, we truly feel we are "we", yet we have plenty of time alone and enjoy things without the other. I think most couples who feel they are "we" do it that way. I'm not sure if I think Caren is being belittling. But I think she is creating a false dichotomy. There are more than the two choices "value some independence" vs. "joined at the hip."

Yes. It was a revelation to me to learn the term "interdependent."
There is a halfway point between codependence and too much
independence.
I have to say that I treasure my alone time more than most people I know, but I'm also _very_ happy to be able to spend time with my wife. We have lots of "we's" and we (each) also have lots of "I's."

My fiance and I are both recovering codependents. We each spent
several years following our respective divorces enthralled in fierce
independent stages. Our relationship is a constant striving towards
interdependence. We have our days when we lapse back into needy
codependent behavior, but those are getting fewer and more rare.

Interdependence is a skill many people have to learn; some never do. I
think the majority of happily married posters in this group just take
it for granted.

jen

shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) writes:

Interdependence is a skill many people have to learn; some never do. I think the majority of happily married posters in this group just take it for granted.

I don't, quite. But for the opposite reason. My "independent" side
is so well developed, that I enjoy the contrast between being in a
relationship and that bit of my core that relishes independence.

"JWB" <nospam1112@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:<hfVTb.118520$cM1.21285138@twister.nyc.rr.com>... "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message news:3754f0b3.0402031339.3c20f047@posting.google.c om... "Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:<IGGTb.40456$Wa.29677@news-server.bigpond.net.au>... "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote > > I have very real reasons not to trust him and so his looking on a > matchmaking site bothered me. He has violated my trust many times and > I spend a lot of energy working on learning to trust him again. He > knows this. However on this issue he feels strongly that he did > nothing wrong. He admitted it was stupid. He didn't go to meet > anyone and blah blah blah. I disagreed with him and said that if it > wasn't wrong, then why didn't you just tell me? It was a silly > conversation because while he was admitting it was stupid he wasn't > being accountable for it being related to all of the past issues. I have convos like this with my husband. Just yesterday I noticed a hole in the back of my car. I asked him if he had seen it. He said he caused it. "Oh" I said. I waited and hoped for an apology but instead I got "don't think I am gonna say sorry after the way you just criticised me". Men! > > HOwever, what I really learned is how easily things get misinterpreted > and how easy it is to be judgemental when giving others advice. I'm > sure I have done it and I saw it done to me. I understand why people > leave or just stay quiet in newsgroups. I can't think of specific > things that were said and I'm totally not going to go through the > thread, but not only were there misinterpreations made but there were > many things that were way off, as things kind of went off on a > tangent. I can see how a newsgroup can really help and I can also see > how it can hurt a person as well. This is true. I cope by taking it all with a grain of salt. Advice here can make great food for thought and it can be very beneficial but you are right it can also be way off the beam and be a complete waste of time. > > I don't know, I have really been thinking about this issue a lot > lately. I learned to be independent when I saw that I wasn't going to > get the love from my parents. What a lesson to teach a child! I want > my daughter to learn that independence but I also want her to be able > to love and not be afraid. I think marriage and independence don't really go together. It's like wanting your cake and wanting to eat your cake, you know? Amy I know couples that can't say "I" went. It's always, "we" went. Some couples work together and play together. The older I get, the more I value time alone. I do love my husband and my children, I simply require alone and quiet time. My husband and I have many differences such as in movies, music, food and friends. He loves sports and I can't stand them. He spends lots of time watching them or attending sporting events with our daughter and that gives me the time to be alone. His mom doesn't understand why I don't go to baseball games with him. Why would I go if I'm not interested in baseball??? He doesn't have a lot of friends, I'm a social butterfly (when I'm in the mood). We do have things in common and do things together but I we are not one of those couples that need to hang onto or hang out with with each other to feel complete. You almost sound like you are "justifying" your way of life by ever-so-slightly belittiling what you see as "the other side". You are being very black and white here. My wife and I have a great marriage, we truly feel we are "we", yet we have plenty of time alone and enjoy things without the other. I think most couples who feel they are "we" do it that way.

Sorry that it sounds belittling to you, it wasn't meant as such. I
know couples that are joined at the hip and it doesn't appeal to me
maybe that's why it sounded negative to you. I think it's awesome
that you and others have a marriage that is great and that you're
happy. I was not demeaning that whatsoever.> I don't see wanting independence in a marriage as having my cake and eating it too! Perhaps if we lived in two different houses and remained married it might be. We're just not as intertwined as other couples are. I have nothing against those that seemed joined at the hip, I just know that that is not for me. The kind that finish each other's sentences :-) (although my sister and I do that) So you *are* capable of that kind of relationship. Just not with a husband.

I couldn't live with my sister :-) That is a fact, she'd drive me
nuts.

If anything sounds like justifying, it's the fact that I want
independence and I also want to be married. If that's called having
your cake and eating it to, so be it I guess.

JWB

shinypenny wrote:
My fiance and I are both recovering codependents. We each spent several years following our respective divorces enthralled in fierce independent stages. Our relationship is a constant striving towards interdependence. We have our days when we lapse back into needy codependent behavior, but those are getting fewer and more rare. Interdependence is a skill many people have to learn; some never do. I think the majority of happily married posters in this group just take it for granted.

It's never been an issue for us so I haven't had to think about it before.
We just seem to have fallen into a balance that works for our personality
types. We're both introverts and our home is our castle - that sort of
thing. We each need to spend time with friends, too, but that is also fairly
evenly balanced. Ditto, outside pursuits and quiet times of introspection.
We like pottering around doing our own thing just knowing the other is
somewhere else in the house.

I'd be extremely unhappy with a gregarious always-on-the-go party type
partner and so would he. I am more social than my husband but he likes me to
pull him into my friendships with other couples. I never really think of us
as being joined at the hip because we don't have to or want to do everything
together and I use "I" more than I use "me", I'm sure. He's definitely the
first person I think of if I have something to tell and he's my confidant
well before anyone else, even close friends.

Tai

shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0402031835.69798fde@posting.google.c om... "JWB" <nospam1112@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:<hfVTb.118520$cM1.21285138@twister.nyc.rr.com>... I don't see wanting independence in a marriage as having my cake and eating it too! Perhaps if we lived in two different houses and remained married it might be. We're just not as intertwined as other couples are. I have nothing against those that seemed joined at the hip, I just know that that is not for me. The kind that finish each other's sentences :-) (although my sister and I do that) So you *are* capable of that kind of relationship. Just not with a
husband. JWB Yes, but she doesn't have to live 24/7 with her sister!

very true :)
I think I get what Caren is saying. She's saying she wouldn't be comfortable having a partner who is constantly hanging all over her and tagging after her, someone who's too needy and dependent and requires too much attention, someone who's entire identity is wrapped up in her own. THAT (particularly the last part) is too overwhelming. At least, it would be for me.


Yes, but she's saying it in way that sounds like "gee, I'm glad I'm not one
of *those* joined at the hip couples", and this started with an observation
of Urf's marriage as one of "those".

The irony of the whole thing is that Mr Caren's untrustworthy actions kinda want to force Caren into acting as the needy one in the relationship. To prevent further transgressions, she might feel like she's got to constantly monitor him, hang over him, tag after him. Why would she want to prevent further transgressions? Because his actions are a direct reflection on her. This is just the nature of marriage - our identities become intertwined in other's minds if not our own. My take? Caren's rejection of "joined at the hip" couples is very healthy given her current situation. It's a self-defense mechanism designed to help her step back and away from her husband and his actions. As she should - his actions are his to own, and it's not going to help the relationship or her sanity if she feels she has to constantly watch him.

I agree - I feel it is a self defense mechanism.

JWB

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0402031911.4a68b6e7@posting.google.c om... "JWB" <nospam1112@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:<hfVTb.118520$cM1.21285138@twister.nyc.rr.com>... "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message news:3754f0b3.0402031339.3c20f047@posting.google.c om... "Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:<IGGTb.40456$Wa.29677@news-server.bigpond.net.au>... > "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote > > > > I have very real reasons not to trust him and so his looking on a > > matchmaking site bothered me. He has violated my trust many times
and > > I spend a lot of energy working on learning to trust him again.
He > > knows this. However on this issue he feels strongly that he did > > nothing wrong. He admitted it was stupid. He didn't go to meet > > anyone and blah blah blah. I disagreed with him and said that if
it > > wasn't wrong, then why didn't you just tell me? It was a silly > > conversation because while he was admitting it was stupid he
wasn't > > being accountable for it being related to all of the past issues. > > I have convos like this with my husband. Just yesterday I noticed a
hole in > the back of my car. I asked him if he had seen it. He said he caused
it. > "Oh" I said. I waited and hoped for an apology but instead I got
"don't > think I am gonna say sorry after the way you just criticised me".
Men! > > > > > HOwever, what I really learned is how easily things get
misinterpreted > > and how easy it is to be judgemental when giving others advice.
I'm > > sure I have done it and I saw it done to me. I understand why
people > > leave or just stay quiet in newsgroups. I can't think of specific > > things that were said and I'm totally not going to go through the > > thread, but not only were there misinterpreations made but there
were > > many things that were way off, as things kind of went off on a > > tangent. I can see how a newsgroup can really help and I can also
see > > how it can hurt a person as well. > > This is true. I cope by taking it all with a grain of salt. Advice
here can > make great food for thought and it can be very beneficial but you
are right > it can also be way off the beam and be a complete waste of time. > > > > > I don't know, I have really been thinking about this issue a lot > > lately. I learned to be independent when I saw that I wasn't
going to > > get the love from my parents. What a lesson to teach a child! I
want > > my daughter to learn that independence but I also want her to be
able > > to love and not be afraid. > > I think marriage and independence don't really go together. It's
like > wanting your cake and wanting to eat your cake, you know? > > Amy I know couples that can't say "I" went. It's always, "we" went. Some couples work together and play together. The older I get, the more I value time alone. I do love my husband and my children, I simply require alone and quiet time. My husband and I have many differences such as in movies, music, food and friends. He loves sports and I can't stand them. He spends lots of time watching them or attending sporting events with our daughter and that gives me the time to be alone. His mom doesn't understand why I don't go to baseball games with him. Why would I go if I'm not interested in baseball??? He doesn't have a lot of friends, I'm a social butterfly (when I'm in the mood). We do have things in common and do things together but I we are not one of those couples that need to hang onto or hang out with with each other to feel complete. You almost sound like you are "justifying" your way of life by ever-so-slightly belittiling what you see as "the other side". You are
being very black and white here. My wife and I have a great marriage, we truly feel we are "we", yet we have plenty of time alone and enjoy things
without the other. I think most couples who feel they are "we" do it that way. Sorry that it sounds belittling to you, it wasn't meant as such.


I know.


I know couples that are joined at the hip and it doesn't appeal to me maybe that's why it sounded negative to you. I think it's awesome that you and others have a marriage that is great and that you're happy. I was not demeaning that whatsoever.


Yes, but you're basically saying "we" couples are joined at the hip, and
couples like yourself are not. That isn't so. There is plenty of "I" room in
a "we" relationship.

I don't see wanting independence in a marriage as having my cake and eating it too! Perhaps if we lived in two different houses and remained married it might be. We're just not as intertwined as other couples are. I have nothing against those that seemed joined at the hip, I just know that that is not for me. The kind that finish each other's sentences :-) (although my sister and I do that) So you *are* capable of that kind of relationship. Just not with a
husband. I couldn't live with my sister :-) That is a fact, she'd drive me nuts. If anything sounds like justifying, it's the fact that I want independence and I also want to be married. If that's called having your cake and eating it to, so be it I guess.

I feel I have that now. I'll bet most "we" couples do.

"JWB" <nospam1112@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:<8IVTb.305512$0P1.61813@twister.nyc.rr.com>... "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:peu127zsv0.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu... "JWB" <nospam1112@nowhere.com> writes: "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message news:3754f0b3.0402031339.3c20f047@posting.google.c om... > > (snip) > > I know couples that can't say "I" went. It's always, "we" went. Some > couples work together and play together. The older I get, the more I > value time alone. I do love my husband and my children, I simply > require alone and quiet time. My husband and I have many differences > such as in movies, music, food and friends. He loves sports and I > can't stand them. He spends lots of time watching them or attending > sporting events with our daughter and that gives me the time to be > alone. His mom doesn't understand why I don't go to baseball games > with him. Why would I go if I'm not interested in baseball??? He > doesn't have a lot of friends, I'm a social butterfly (when I'm in the > mood). We do have things in common and do things together but I we > are not one of those couples that need to hang onto or hang out with > with each other to feel complete. You almost sound like you are "justifying" your way of life by ever-so-slightly belittiling what you see as "the other side". You are being very black and white here. My wife and I have a great marriage, we truly feel we are "we", yet we have plenty of time alone and enjoy things without the other. I think most couples who feel they are "we" do it that way. I'm not sure if I think Caren is being belittling. But I think she is creating a false dichotomy. There are more than the two choices "value some independence" vs. "joined at the hip."

I agree, what I have posted is about extremes. However, to be
perfectly honest with you, that is more of what I see. Either the
really independent type of couple or those who are overly enmeshed. I
know there is something in the middle but I don't see a whole lot of
it. Yea, that's kinda what I mean by her being so black and white. I dunno... belittle might be a bad word, but I'm reading into the meaning as "here's what we do, and by golly, you know, it's good. Not like those others who *have* to be with each other". It's almost like she's trying to convince herself, in a way. I have to say that I treasure my alone time more than most people I know, but I'm also _very_ happy to be able to spend time with my wife. We have lots of "we's" and we (each) also have lots of "I's." Us too.


I treasure my time alone more than most also. I do look forward to my
husband and I going on a date (which we do not do nearly enough and
we're both at fault for that). We are going to a wedding on
Valentine's Day but we couldn't get a sitter so our daughter is coming
with us. Anyone free on Sat to watch a cute 9 year old :-)

"JWB" <nospam1112@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:hfVTb.118520$cM1.21285138@twister.nyc.rr.com. .. "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message news:3754f0b3.0402031339.3c20f047@posting.google.c om... "Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:<IGGTb.40456$Wa.29677@news-server.bigpond.net.au>... "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote > > I have very real reasons not to trust him and so his looking on a > matchmaking site bothered me. He has violated my trust many times
and > I spend a lot of energy working on learning to trust him again. He > knows this. However on this issue he feels strongly that he did > nothing wrong. He admitted it was stupid. He didn't go to meet > anyone and blah blah blah. I disagreed with him and said that if it > wasn't wrong, then why didn't you just tell me? It was a silly > conversation because while he was admitting it was stupid he wasn't > being accountable for it being related to all of the past issues. I have convos like this with my husband. Just yesterday I noticed a
hole in the back of my car. I asked him if he had seen it. He said he caused
it. "Oh" I said. I waited and hoped for an apology but instead I got
"don't think I am gonna say sorry after the way you just criticised me". Men! > > HOwever, what I really learned is how easily things get
misinterpreted > and how easy it is to be judgemental when giving others advice. I'm > sure I have done it and I saw it done to me. I understand why
people > leave or just stay quiet in newsgroups. I can't think of specific > things that were said and I'm totally not going to go through the > thread, but not only were there misinterpreations made but there
were > many things that were way off, as things kind of went off on a > tangent. I can see how a newsgroup can really help and I can also
see > how it can hurt a person as well. This is true. I cope by taking it all with a grain of salt. Advice
here can make great food for thought and it can be very beneficial but you are right it can also be way off the beam and be a complete waste of time. > > I don't know, I have really been thinking about this issue a lot > lately. I learned to be independent when I saw that I wasn't going
to > get the love from my parents. What a lesson to teach a child! I
want > my daughter to learn that independence but I also want her to be
able > to love and not be afraid. I think marriage and independence don't really go together. It's like wanting your cake and wanting to eat your cake, you know? Amy I know couples that can't say "I" went. It's always, "we" went. Some couples work together and play together. The older I get, the more I value time alone. I do love my husband and my children, I simply require alone and quiet time. My husband and I have many differences such as in movies, music, food and friends. He loves sports and I can't stand them. He spends lots of time watching them or attending sporting events with our daughter and that gives me the time to be alone. His mom doesn't understand why I don't go to baseball games with him. Why would I go if I'm not interested in baseball??? He doesn't have a lot of friends, I'm a social butterfly (when I'm in the mood). We do have things in common and do things together but I we are not one of those couples that need to hang onto or hang out with with each other to feel complete. You almost sound like you are "justifying" your way of life by ever-so-slightly belittiling what you see as "the other side". You are
being very black and white here. My wife and I have a great marriage, we truly feel we are "we", yet we have plenty of time alone and enjoy things
without the other. I think most couples who feel they are "we" do it that way.

I am reminded of a story a great friend told me a few years ago.
He had been going through a stressful time in his life and job. He
decided as he does several times a year that he needed some "down time".
In other words a vacation which to him is always a beach. His wife, a
professional in her own right, had commitments she could not break. He
decided he wanted to be alone anyway. Upon his arrival for a week alone
in Jamaica he realized that he had made a really big mistake. The best
times of his life are the times he could share with others.

I don't see wanting independence in a marriage as having my cake and eating it too! Perhaps if we lived in two different houses and remained married it might be. We're just not as intertwined as other couples are. I have nothing against those that seemed joined at the hip, I just know that that is not for me. The kind that finish each other's sentences :-) (although my sister and I do that) So you *are* capable of that kind of relationship. Just not with a
husband. JWB

On 3 Feb 2004 21:52:36 -0800, Caren
<caren50@msn.com> wrote: "JWB" <nospam1112@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:<8IVTb.305512$0P1.61813@twister.nyc.rr.com>... "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:peu127zsv0.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu... "JWB" <nospam1112@nowhere.com> writes: > "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message > news:3754f0b3.0402031339.3c20f047@posting.google.c om... > > > > (snip) > > > > I know couples that can't say "I" went. It's always, "we" went. Some > > couples work together and play together. The older I get, the more I > > value time alone. I do love my husband and my children, I simply > > require alone and quiet time. My husband and I have many differences > > such as in movies, music, food and friends. He loves sports and I > > can't stand them. He spends lots of time watching them or attending > > sporting events with our daughter and that gives me the time to be > > alone. His mom doesn't understand why I don't go to baseball games > > with him. Why would I go if I'm not interested in baseball??? He > > doesn't have a lot of friends, I'm a social butterfly (when I'm in the > > mood). We do have things in common and do things together but I we > > are not one of those couples that need to hang onto or hang out with > > with each other to feel complete. > > > You almost sound like you are "justifying" your way of life by > ever-so-slightly belittiling what you see as "the other side". You are being > very black and white here. My wife and I have a great marriage, we truly > feel we are "we", yet we have plenty of time alone and enjoy things without > the other. I think most couples who feel they are "we" do it that > way. I'm not sure if I think Caren is being belittling. But I think she is creating a false dichotomy. There are more than the two choices "value some independence" vs. "joined at the hip." I agree, what I have posted is about extremes. However, to be perfectly honest with you, that is more of what I see. Either the really independent type of couple or those who are overly enmeshed. I know there is something in the middle but I don't see a whole lot of it.

So what is "overly enmeshed"? Did you mean to say: "overly enmeshed *for
me*"? You might consider my wife and I "overly enmeshed" or "joined at
the hip". I see you as a "married single". Some marriages thrive like
that. some marriages work when the couple is only together for the
weekends.

If you like being a "married single" go for it. If you don't, you'd
better get ahold of some of that "hip super glue" ;)
Yea, that's kinda what I mean by her being so black and white. I dunno... belittle might be a bad word, but I'm reading into the meaning as "here's what we do, and by golly, you know, it's good. Not like those others who *have* to be with each other". It's almost like she's trying to convince herself, in a way. I have to say that I treasure my alone time more than most people I know, but I'm also _very_ happy to be able to spend time with my wife. We have lots of "we's" and we (each) also have lots of "I's." Us too. I treasure my time alone more than most also. I do look forward to my husband and I going on a date (which we do not do nearly enough and we're both at fault for that). We are going to a wedding on Valentine's Day but we couldn't get a sitter so our daughter is coming with us. Anyone free on Sat to watch a cute 9 year old :-)

I don't think we live in the same place, but my 11 and 14 year old
daughters like playing with the little girls.

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

"Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message
news:slrnc223qp.6me.tony@home.cigardiary.com... On 3 Feb 2004 21:52:36 -0800, Caren I agree, what I have posted is about extremes. However, to be perfectly honest with you, that is more of what I see. Either the really independent type of couple or those who are overly enmeshed. I know there is something in the middle but I don't see a whole lot of it. So what is "overly enmeshed"? Did you mean to say: "overly enmeshed
*for me*"? You might consider my wife and I "overly enmeshed" or "joined at the hip". I see you as a "married single". Some marriages thrive like that. some marriages work when the couple is only together for the weekends. If you like being a "married single" go for it. If you don't, you'd better get ahold of some of that "hip super glue" ;)

Isn't this more just a matter of whether or not the couple has much in
common? I'm married to my best friend. My husband and I have the same
interests and both choose to do much of the same activities. It's not
from us clinging to each other and following each other around. My first
marriage was more like yours Caren. I was married to someone who had
different interests so we didn't spend that much time together. Because
of that, geting overly enmeshed was impossible. But married to someone
with my interests, it's inevitable.

Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> writes:
So what is "overly enmeshed"?

Having difficulty separating your own feelings from those of your partner.
And yes, this is quite common.

Doug Anderson wrote: Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> writes: So what is "overly enmeshed"? Having difficulty separating your own feelings from those of your partner. And yes, this is quite common.

So taking the other partner's feelings into consideration at all times
is "overly enmeshed"? So choosing not to do something because it would
cause him discomfort and deciding maybe it wasn't a good thing to do
anyway is "enmeshed"? Guilty. I love that part about marriage.
Although, I've always been more of the totally independent, head-strong
type -- I prefer who I am NOW vs. then. Having to take his feelings
into consideration makes mine more realistic and comfortable <and alot
less chaotic with fewer ramifications from impulsive decisions>. Guess
it helps because he was the polar opposite....responsible to a fault and
had no idea how to have any fun. So I've learned responsibility and
he's learned to loosen up a little and now we are "enmeshed". :)

amy

amy

Amy D <amykae@joimail.com> writes:
Doug Anderson wrote: Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> writes: So what is "overly enmeshed"? Having difficulty separating your own feelings from those of your partner. And yes, this is quite common. So taking the other partner's feelings into consideration at all times is "overly enmeshed"?

Not at all. And not at all what I said. Taking your partners
feelings into account is not overly enmeshed. Being unable to
distinguish between your feelings and his is.

There's nothing wrong with being enmeshed if you both like it that
way. Though it tends to lead to trouble later on...

shinypenny <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote:
I think people like Urf tend to look intimacy straight in the face, and embrace it with open arms. Seems that way to me. I'm not quite like that myself. I think sometimes it's safer to turn my head away and kinda inch forward tentatively. Every now and then I do manage to make a big leap and faith, but usually it's with my eyes squinted shut and bracing for a potentially violent impact. :-)

I agree with you about Urf, and I approach it the same way you do. He
may not have been so bold when he was younger, though.

"Amy D" <amykae@joimail.com> wrote in message
news:402123AB.C802F72D@joimail.com... Doug Anderson wrote: Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> writes: So what is "overly enmeshed"? Having difficulty separating your own feelings from those of your
partner. And yes, this is quite common. So taking the other partner's feelings into consideration at all times is "overly enmeshed"? So choosing not to do something because it would cause him discomfort and deciding maybe it wasn't a good thing to do anyway is "enmeshed"? Guilty. I love that part about marriage. Although, I've always been more of the totally independent, head-strong type -- I prefer who I am NOW vs. then. Having to take his feelings into consideration makes mine more realistic and comfortable <and alot less chaotic with fewer ramifications from impulsive decisions>. Guess it helps because he was the polar opposite....responsible to a fault and had no idea how to have any fun. So I've learned responsibility and he's learned to loosen up a little and now we are "enmeshed". :) amy

Empathetic or Symbiotic?

If your partner gets sad, you get sad = "empathetic".

If your partner gets sad, you work at making them not sad = "symbiotic".

"Emma Anne" <mbjq@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1g8mogg.hrw9j1xsuv2pN%mbjq@earthlink.net... shinypenny <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote: I think people like Urf tend to look intimacy straight in the face, and embrace it with open arms. Seems that way to me. I'm not quite like that myself. I think sometimes it's safer to turn my head away and kinda inch forward tentatively. Every now and then I do manage to make a big leap and faith, but usually it's with my eyes squinted shut and bracing for a potentially violent impact. :-) I agree with you about Urf, and I approach it the same way you do. He may not have been so bold when he was younger, though.

I was very shy when I was a young man. I am still somewhat shy but I
have overcompensated in some ways.

I would not call myself "bold" as much as I would call myself "ignorant".

I entered my relationship without a lot of previous relationships.
Particularly
relationships that were negative. As a result, I was ignorant of what could
go wrong. I did not know that I could fail at relationships.

Therefore, when I see failed relationships I say.... there but for the grace
of God, go I.

I judge (that word again) that in Caren's case, it is the negative impact
of previous relationship experiences (including her relatives) that have
made her reluctant to fully embrace ANY relationship that could ultimately
be painful. It is an understandable self imposed limitation.

On 04 Feb 2004 08:59:16 -0800, Doug Anderson
<ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote: Amy D <amykae@joimail.com> writes: Doug Anderson wrote: Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> writes: > So what is "overly enmeshed"? Having difficulty separating your own feelings from those of your partner. And yes, this is quite common. So taking the other partner's feelings into consideration at all times is "overly enmeshed"? Not at all. And not at all what I said. Taking your partners feelings into account is not overly enmeshed. Being unable to distinguish between your feelings and his is. There's nothing wrong with being enmeshed if you both like it that way. Though it tends to lead to trouble later on...

Really? For who?

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:<2%6Ub.11735$IF1.537@nwrdny03.gnilink.net>...
I am reminded of a story a great friend told me a few years ago. He had been going through a stressful time in his life and job. He decided as he does several times a year that he needed some "down time". In other words a vacation which to him is always a beach. His wife, a professional in her own right, had commitments she could not break. He decided he wanted to be alone anyway. Upon his arrival for a week alone in Jamaica he realized that he had made a really big mistake. The best times of his life are the times he could share with others.


I can relate.

For a long time now I've preferred to travel alone. I dislike having
to compromise, particularly when you spend good money and have limited
time to visit a destination you've been dreaming about. My ex and I
had incompatible tastes in travel and I did not enjoy traveling with
him. There's very few people I've been happy to travel with.

But that's changed since meeting my fiance. I love traveling with him,
and doing so greatly enhances my enjoyment of the experience. A huge
part of that is that we are simply compatible when it comes to similar
interests and tastes. There's simply no need to compromise on anything
- we want to do and see the same things.

I've had to travel for business recently without him, and I don't mind
that too much - for example, I love flying alone because then I can
indulge and strike up conversations with interesting seat-mates,
without worry I'm ignoring my travel partner. And yet, I can also see
how it would have been fun to bring him along. I'd often find myself
thinking, "If he was here, he'd really love this or that.... "

jen

Doug Anderson wrote: Amy D <amykae@joimail.com> writes: Doug Anderson wrote: Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> writes: > So what is "overly enmeshed"? Having difficulty separating your own feelings from those of your partner. And yes, this is quite common. So taking the other partner's feelings into consideration at all times is "overly enmeshed"? Not at all. And not at all what I said. Taking your partners feelings into account is not overly enmeshed. Being unable to distinguish between your feelings and his is. There's nothing wrong with being enmeshed if you both like it that way. Though it tends to lead to trouble later on...

How does it lead to trouble? And to be properly "enmeshed" my feelings
change based what I discover when taking his feelings into
consideration. So my original feelings disappear and I have new
feelings more realistic for "us", I guess, since I am lacking a better
way to explain it.

amy

Amy D <amykae@joimail.com> writes:
Doug Anderson wrote: Amy D <amykae@joimail.com> writes: Doug Anderson wrote: > > Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> writes: > > > So what is "overly enmeshed"? > > Having difficulty separating your own feelings from those of your partner. > And yes, this is quite common. So taking the other partner's feelings into consideration at all times is "overly enmeshed"? Not at all. And not at all what I said. Taking your partners feelings into account is not overly enmeshed. Being unable to distinguish between your feelings and his is. There's nothing wrong with being enmeshed if you both like it that way. Though it tends to lead to trouble later on... How does it lead to trouble? And to be properly "enmeshed" my feelings change based what I discover when taking his feelings into consideration. So my original feelings disappear and I have new feelings more realistic for "us", I guess, since I am lacking a better way to explain it.

Well, I still can't tell if you understood what I wrote. Enmeshment
has _nothing_ to do with taking someone's feelings into account.

It has to do with not being able to tell your feelings apart from his.


Here is an example of how it can lead to trouble. If he is angry,
you'll feel angry too. So if he is angry at you, you're anger will
either be at him (in which case you are more likely to fight than to
solve the problem which caused the anger), or will be directed at
yourself (in which case it will also interfere with constructive work
on solving the problem which caused the anger).

Often things are more subtle that that. If he is feeling guilty about
something he did which he knows you wouldn't like, and you are
enmeshed, he is likely to confuse his guilty feelings with (possibly
nonexistent) feelings of yours, and blame you for his guilt. Etc.


In terms of this thread, although Caren says that she and her husband
are independent, a tempting interpretation of his behavior is that it
is actually a symptom of enmeshment:

He feels guilty about whatever the annoying things he does are (goes
to matchmaking sites, buying trucks, whatever). So he (emotionally)
confuses his guilt with Caren's, and feels that she must be guilty
about something too. As a response, he wants her to stop
corresponding with her ex-husband since he's convinced himself that
she is guilty of doing something bad.


Of course few things are ever quite that simple.

Doug Anderson wrote: Amy D <amykae@joimail.com> writes: Doug Anderson wrote: Amy D <amykae@joimail.com> writes: > Doug Anderson wrote: > > > > Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> writes: > > > > > So what is "overly enmeshed"? > > > > Having difficulty separating your own feelings from those of your partner. > > And yes, this is quite common. > > So taking the other partner's feelings into consideration at all times > is "overly enmeshed"? Not at all. And not at all what I said. Taking your partners feelings into account is not overly enmeshed. Being unable to distinguish between your feelings and his is. There's nothing wrong with being enmeshed if you both like it that way. Though it tends to lead to trouble later on... How does it lead to trouble? And to be properly "enmeshed" my feelings change based what I discover when taking his feelings into consideration. So my original feelings disappear and I have new feelings more realistic for "us", I guess, since I am lacking a better way to explain it. Well, I still can't tell if you understood what I wrote. Enmeshment has _nothing_ to do with taking someone's feelings into account. It has to do with not being able to tell your feelings apart from his. Here is an example of how it can lead to trouble. If he is angry, you'll feel angry too. So if he is angry at you, you're anger will either be at him (in which case you are more likely to fight than to solve the problem which caused the anger), or will be directed at yourself (in which case it will also interfere with constructive work on solving the problem which caused the anger). Often things are more subtle that that. If he is feeling guilty about something he did which he knows you wouldn't like, and you are enmeshed, he is likely to confuse his guilty feelings with (possibly nonexistent) feelings of yours, and blame you for his guilt. Etc. In terms of this thread, although Caren says that she and her husband are independent, a tempting interpretation of his behavior is that it is actually a symptom of enmeshment: He feels guilty about whatever the annoying things he does are (goes to matchmaking sites, buying trucks, whatever). So he (emotionally) confuses his guilt with Caren's, and feels that she must be guilty about something too. As a response, he wants her to stop corresponding with her ex-husband since he's convinced himself that she is guilty of doing something bad. Of course few things are ever quite that simple.

Okay, I'm hearing what you are saying. And it was actually a pretty big
problem in our early days. I just didn't have a definition for it. :)
Thanks for explaining.

amy

amy

Amy D <amykae@joimail.com> writes:
problem in our early days. I just didn't have a definition for it. :) Thanks for explaining.

No problem; I'm glad to have been clear, finally, whether I'm correct
or not!

Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> writes:
On 04 Feb 2004 08:59:16 -0800, Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote: Amy D <amykae@joimail.com> writes: Doug Anderson wrote: > > Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> writes: > > > So what is "overly enmeshed"? > > Having difficulty separating your own feelings from those of your partner. > And yes, this is quite common. So taking the other partner's feelings into consideration at all times is "overly enmeshed"? Not at all. And not at all what I said. Taking your partners feelings into account is not overly enmeshed. Being unable to distinguish between your feelings and his is. There's nothing wrong with being enmeshed if you both like it that way. Though it tends to lead to trouble later on... Really? For who?

For both members of the enmeshed couple. See my reply to Amy for
examples if you're interested.

Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<xefzdqpon6.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu>... Amy D <amykae@joimail.com> writes: Doug Anderson wrote: Amy D <amykae@joimail.com> writes: > Doug Anderson wrote: > > > > Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> writes: > > > > > So what is "overly enmeshed"? > > > > Having difficulty separating your own feelings from those of your partner. > > And yes, this is quite common. > > So taking the other partner's feelings into consideration at all times > is "overly enmeshed"? Not at all. And not at all what I said. Taking your partners feelings into account is not overly enmeshed. Being unable to distinguish between your feelings and his is. There's nothing wrong with being enmeshed if you both like it that way. Though it tends to lead to trouble later on... How does it lead to trouble? And to be properly "enmeshed" my feelings change based what I discover when taking his feelings into consideration. So my original feelings disappear and I have new feelings more realistic for "us", I guess, since I am lacking a better way to explain it. Well, I still can't tell if you understood what I wrote. Enmeshment has _nothing_ to do with taking someone's feelings into account. It has to do with not being able to tell your feelings apart from his. Here is an example of how it can lead to trouble. If he is angry, you'll feel angry too. So if he is angry at you, you're anger will either be at him (in which case you are more likely to fight than to solve the problem which caused the anger), or will be directed at yourself (in which case it will also interfere with constructive work on solving the problem which caused the anger). Often things are more subtle that that. If he is feeling guilty about something he did which he knows you wouldn't like, and you are enmeshed, he is likely to confuse his guilty feelings with (possibly nonexistent) feelings of yours, and blame you for his guilt. Etc. In terms of this thread, although Caren says that she and her husband are independent, a tempting interpretation of his behavior is that it is actually a symptom of enmeshment: He feels guilty about whatever the annoying things he does are (goes to matchmaking sites, buying trucks, whatever). So he (emotionally) confuses his guilt with Caren's, and feels that she must be guilty about something too. As a response, he wants her to stop corresponding with her ex-husband since he's convinced himself that she is guilty of doing something bad. Of course few things are ever quite that simple.

Your description of enmeshment sounds more like projection, which is
what I felt like this whole thing was all about from the beginning.
This is why I wanted to ask happily married, normal, healthy couples
what they thought of emailing old boyfriends. I wanted to get a view
of how a healthy couple viewed it without all of the gunk that is in
my marriage. I was originally posting just to answer his simple
question (which of course isn't simple since we are not exactly
considered couple of the year!) AT any rate, what I was trying to
point out to him when he said to me is it normal to email
exboyfriends, my point to him was is it normal for a husband to meet a
woman in a chatroom and meet her on your route during the day? It
went downhill from there.

There are lots of things about my husband that I have not shared in
here and part of it is embarrassment and part of it is I don't feel
that many, perhaps most of you, will understand without really knowing
us. I don't want to paint a picture of my husband being a bad person
and I'm the victim but I'm concerned that it will come out that way.

At any rate, back the issue of enmeshment, I see it more as not
letting people make their own decisions or getting mad at them if they
don't do what you wanted them to do. It often happens with children,
where parents are overly enmeshed in their lives. It happens with
elderly parents. It can happen in just about any relationship. My
sister and I tend to do it from time to time however, we also realize
that we're doing it and back off. One of my pregnancies, she had a
very strong reaction to it and was telling me that I should _________.
I was shocked. She was shocked. We laugh about it today but not
back then. I knew where she was coming from too.

In regard to enmeshment with children, again I see it as a form of
projection. I was not a good swimmer as a child and always feared the
water. As a result, I have vehemently gotten both of my children into
swimming very early in their lives and probably shoved it down their
throats. Last summer is the first summer that I didn't force my
daughter to take it (at age 8) since she appears to be fine, does
great dives, etc. I very much want my daughter to have the many
opportunities that I did not and sometimes it's on the verge of
projection or enmeshment.

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0402051309.39ca102@posting.google.co m...
throats. Last summer is the first summer that I didn't force my daughter to take it (at age 8) since she appears to be fine, does great dives, etc. I very much want my daughter to have the many opportunities that I did not and sometimes it's on the verge of projection or enmeshment.

heh heh - it doesn't take very long to learn to swim :)

Caren wrote:
Well, I still can't tell if you understood what I wrote. Enmeshment has _nothing_ to do with taking someone's feelings into account. It has to do with not being able to tell your feelings apart from his.

[]
In terms of this thread, although Caren says that she and her husband are independent, a tempting interpretation of his behavior is that it is actually a symptom of enmeshment: He feels guilty about whatever the annoying things he does are (goes to matchmaking sites, buying trucks, whatever). So he (emotionally) confuses his guilt with Caren's, and feels that she must be guilty about something too. As a response, he wants her to stop corresponding with her ex-husband since he's convinced himself that she is guilty of doing something bad. Of course few things are ever quite that simple. Your description of enmeshment sounds more like projection, which is what I felt like this whole thing was all about from the beginning.

I think your definition of enmeshment was different
from what you say in this post. In your earlier post you wrote :
I know couples that can't say "I" went. It's always, "we" went.Some couples work together and play together."

and now:
At any rate, back the issue of enmeshment, I see it more as not letting people make their own decisions or getting mad at them if they don't do what you wanted them to do.

Working and playing together is not the same thing as
not allowing the other to make their own decisions,
nether is saying "we" instead of "I" most of the time.
What you say here is classic controlling behavior. I doubt
that most people who have been talking about enmeshment
had this kind of relationship in mind.
It often happens with children, where parents are overly enmeshed in their lives.

You mean interfere in their lives, right?! If you had
given these examples as your definition of enmeshed
relationship I'm almost sure that people who have been
arguing for the "other side" wouldn't have done it.

As some others have pointed out, it mostly has to do
with how much the couple share interest and have in
common with each other. Those who like exactly the
same things and enjoy same activities (and think similarly
when it comes to social or political matters) tend to be
more interdependent with each other. From what I have
observed, people in those kind of relationship CAN be
very independent individuals, they just "fit" with each
other perfectly, and it can be quite nice. My husband
and I don't have that level of attachment, but both my
parents and in-laws do, and I think it can be wonderful.
Of course, there are also those who have a rather
unhealthy level of dependence with each other, but it's
not always the case.

Caren wrote: Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<xefzdqpon6.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu>... Amy D <amykae@joimail.com> writes: Doug Anderson wrote:>> Amy D <amykae@joimail.com> writes:>>> Doug Anderson wrote:>>>>>> Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> writes:>>>>>>> So what is "overly enmeshed"?>>>>>> Having difficulty separating your own feelings from those of your>>> partner. And yes, this is quite common.>>>> So taking the other partner's feelings into consideration at all times>> is "overly enmeshed"?>> Not at all. And not at all what I said. Taking your partners> feelings into account is not overly enmeshed. Being unable to> distinguish between your feelings and his is.>> There's nothing wrong with being enmeshed if you both like it that> way. Though it tends to lead to trouble later on... How does it lead to trouble? And to be properly "enmeshed" my feelings change based what I discover when taking his feelings into consideration. So my original feelings disappear and I have new feelings more realistic for "us", I guess, since I am lacking a better way to explain it. Well, I still can't tell if you understood what I wrote. Enmeshment has _nothing_ to do with taking someone's feelings into account. It has to do with not being able to tell your feelings apart from his. Here is an example of how it can lead to trouble. If he is angry, you'll feel angry too. So if he is angry at you, you're anger will either be at him (in which case you are more likely to fight than to solve the problem which caused the anger), or will be directed at yourself (in which case it will also interfere with constructive work on solving the problem which caused the anger). Often things are more subtle that that. If he is feeling guilty about something he did which he knows you wouldn't like, and you are enmeshed, he is likely to confuse his guilty feelings with (possibly nonexistent) feelings of yours, and blame you for his guilt. Etc. In terms of this thread, although Caren says that she and her husband are independent, a tempting interpretation of his behavior is that it is actually a symptom of enmeshment: He feels guilty about whatever the annoying things he does are (goes to matchmaking sites, buying trucks, whatever). So he (emotionally) confuses his guilt with Caren's, and feels that she must be guilty about something too. As a response, he wants her to stop corresponding with her ex-husband since he's convinced himself that she is guilty of doing something bad. Of course few things are ever quite that simple. Your description of enmeshment sounds more like projection, which is what I felt like this whole thing was all about from the beginning. This is why I wanted to ask happily married, normal, healthy couples what they thought of emailing old boyfriends. I wanted to get a view of how a healthy couple viewed it without all of the gunk that is in my marriage. I was originally posting just to answer his simple question (which of course isn't simple since we are not exactly considered couple of the year!) AT any rate, what I was trying to point out to him when he said to me is it normal to email exboyfriends, my point to him was is it normal for a husband to meet a woman in a chatroom and meet her on your route during the day? It went downhill from there.

Yeah, because he got defensive. What I find most unbecoming and
disappointing is that he can't even admit this - and the double standard. I
mean, really, how big of a person do u have to be to admit something like this?

Ellie wrote: Caren wrote: Well, I still can't tell if you understood what I wrote. Enmeshment has _nothing_ to do with taking someone's feelings into account. It has to do with not being able to tell your feelings apart from his. [] In terms of this thread, although Caren says that she and her husband are independent, a tempting interpretation of his behavior is that it is actually a symptom of enmeshment: He feels guilty about whatever the annoying things he does are (goes to matchmaking sites, buying trucks, whatever). So he (emotionally) confuses his guilt with Caren's, and feels that she must be guilty about something too. As a response, he wants her to stop corresponding with her ex-husband since he's convinced himself that she is guilty of doing something bad. Of course few things are ever quite that simple. Your description of enmeshment sounds more like projection, which is what I felt like this whole thing was all about from the beginning. I think your definition of enmeshment was different from what you say in this post. In your earlier post you wrote : I know couples that can't say "I" went. It's always, "we" went. Some couples work together and play together." and now: At any rate, back the issue of enmeshment, I see it more as not letting people make their own decisions or getting mad at them if they don't do what you wanted them to do. Working and playing together is not the same thing as not allowing the other to make their own decisions, nether is saying "we" instead of "I" most of the time. What you say here is classic controlling behavior. I doubt that most people who have been talking about enmeshment had this kind of relationship in mind. It often happens with children, where parents are overly enmeshed in their lives. You mean interfere in their lives, right?! If you had given these examples as your definition of enmeshed relationship I'm almost sure that people who have been arguing for the "other side" wouldn't have done it. As some others have pointed out, it mostly has to do with how much the couple share interest and have in common with each other. Those who like exactly the same things and enjoy same activities (and think similarly when it comes to social or political matters) tend to be more interdependent with each other. From what I have observed, people in those kind of relationship CAN be very independent individuals, they just "fit" with each other perfectly, and it can be quite nice. My husband and I don't have that level of attachment, but both my parents and in-laws do, and I think it can be wonderful. Of course, there are also those who have a rather unhealthy level of dependence with each other, but it's not always the case.

I think enmeshment simply means you can't separate the "I" from the "We"
anymore. How's that for a succinct definition?

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in

AT any rate, what I was trying to point out to him when he said to me is it normal to email exboyfriends, my point to him was is it normal for a husband to meet a woman in a chatroom and meet her on your route during the day? It went downhill from there.

You were glad he didn't like your emailing your exs because it meant that he
understood how you didn't like him meeting women?

Amy

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0402051309.39ca102@posting.google.co m... Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<xefzdqpon6.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu>... Amy D <amykae@joimail.com> writes: Doug Anderson wrote: > > Amy D <amykae@joimail.com> writes: > > > Doug Anderson wrote: > > > > > > Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> writes: > > > > > > > So what is "overly enmeshed"? > > > > > > Having difficulty separating your own feelings from those of
your partner. > > > And yes, this is quite common. > > > > So taking the other partner's feelings into consideration at all
times > > is "overly enmeshed"? > > Not at all. And not at all what I said. Taking your partners > feelings into account is not overly enmeshed. Being unable to > distinguish between your feelings and his is. > > There's nothing wrong with being enmeshed if you both like it that > way. Though it tends to lead to trouble later on... How does it lead to trouble? And to be properly "enmeshed" my
feelings change based what I discover when taking his feelings into consideration. So my original feelings disappear and I have new feelings more realistic for "us", I guess, since I am lacking a better way to explain it. Well, I still can't tell if you understood what I wrote. Enmeshment has _nothing_ to do with taking someone's feelings into account. It has to do with not being able to tell your feelings apart from his. Here is an example of how it can lead to trouble. If he is angry, you'll feel angry too. So if he is angry at you, you're anger will either be at him (in which case you are more likely to fight than to solve the problem which caused the anger), or will be directed at yourself (in which case it will also interfere with constructive work on solving the problem which caused the anger). Often things are more subtle that that. If he is feeling guilty about something he did which he knows you wouldn't like, and you are enmeshed, he is likely to confuse his guilty feelings with (possibly nonexistent) feelings of yours, and blame you for his guilt. Etc. In terms of this thread, although Caren says that she and her husband are independent, a tempting interpretation of his behavior is that it is actually a symptom of enmeshment: He feels guilty about whatever the annoying things he does are (goes to matchmaking sites, buying trucks, whatever). So he (emotionally) confuses his guilt with Caren's, and feels that she must be guilty about something too. As a response, he wants her to stop corresponding with her ex-husband since he's convinced himself that she is guilty of doing something bad. Of course few things are ever quite that simple. Your description of enmeshment sounds more like projection, which is what I felt like this whole thing was all about from the beginning. This is why I wanted to ask happily married, normal, healthy couples what they thought of emailing old boyfriends. I wanted to get a view of how a healthy couple viewed it without all of the gunk that is in my marriage. I was originally posting just to answer his simple question (which of course isn't simple since we are not exactly considered couple of the year!) AT any rate, what I was trying to point out to him when he said to me is it normal to email exboyfriends, my point to him was is it normal for a husband to meet a woman in a chatroom and meet her on your route during the day? It went downhill from there. There are lots of things about my husband that I have not shared in here and part of it is embarrassment and part of it is I don't feel that many, perhaps most of you, will understand without really knowing us. I don't want to paint a picture of my husband being a bad person and I'm the victim but I'm concerned that it will come out that way. At any rate, back the issue of enmeshment, I see it more as not letting people make their own decisions or getting mad at them if they don't do what you wanted them to do. It often happens with children, where parents are overly enmeshed in their lives. It happens with elderly parents. It can happen in just about any relationship. My sister and I tend to do it from time to time however, we also realize that we're doing it and back off. One of my pregnancies, she had a very strong reaction to it and was telling me that I should _________. I was shocked. She was shocked. We laugh about it today but not back then. I knew where she was coming from too. In regard to enmeshment with children, again I see it as a form of projection. I was not a good swimmer as a child and always feared the water. As a result, I have vehemently gotten both of my children into swimming very early in their lives and probably shoved it down their throats. Last summer is the first summer that I didn't force my daughter to take it (at age 8) since she appears to be fine, does great dives, etc. I very much want my daughter to have the many opportunities that I did not and sometimes it's on the verge of projection or enmeshment.

I am beginning to change my original opinion on this subject.

I am beginning to think that if my wife were to say to me that she
wanted to contact old boy friends via (fill in the blank) that I should
encourage her to do just that. Afterall, I am confident in the strength
and quality of our relationship. Supporting her is the right thing to do
in every case. I would hope that she would do the same for me. If
I felt the need to seek out other women, to become friends with
them and to met with them from time to time, she should support me
in this.

Gibran
The Prophet

Then said Almitra, "Speak to us of Love."

And he raised his head and looked upon the people, and there fell a
stillness upon them. And with a great voice he said:

When love beckons to you follow him,

Though his ways are hard and steep.

And when his wings enfold you yield to him,

Though the sword hidden among his pinions may wound you.

And when he speaks to you believe in him,

Though his voice may shatter your dreams as the north wind lays waste the
garden.

For even as love crowns you so shall he crucify you. Even as he is for your
growth so is he for your pruning.

Even as he ascends to your height and caresses your tenderest branches that
quiver in the sun,

So shall he descend to your roots and shake them in their clinging to the
earth.

Like sheaves of corn he gathers you unto himself.

He threshes you to make you naked.

He sifts you to free you from your husks.

He grinds you to whiteness.

He kneads you until you are pliant;

And then he assigns you to his sacred fire, that you may become sacred bread
for God's sacred feast.

All these things shall love do unto you that you may know the secrets of
your heart, and in that knowledge become a fragment of Life's heart.

But if in your fear you would seek only love's peace and love's pleasure,

Then it is better for you that you cover your nakedness and pass out of
love's threshing-floor,

Into the seasonless world where you shall laugh, but not all of your
laughter, and weep, but not all of your tears.

Love gives naught but itself and takes naught but from itself.

Love possesses not nor would it be possessed;

For love is sufficient unto love.

When you love you should not say, "God is in my heart," but rather, I am in
the heart of God."

And think not you can direct the course of love, for love, if it finds you
worthy, directs your course.

Love has no other desire but to fulfil itself.

But if you love and must needs have desires, let these be your desires:

To melt and be like a running brook that sings its melody to the night.

To know the pain of too much tenderness.

To be wounded by your own understanding of love;

And to bleed willingly and joyfully.

To wake at dawn with a winged heart and give thanks for another day of
loving;

To rest at the noon hour and meditate love's ecstasy;

To return home at eventide with gratitude;

And then to sleep with a prayer for the beloved in your heart and a song of
praise upon your lips.

urf <urf@nospam.com> wrote:
"Emma Anne" <mbjq@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:1g8mogg.hrw9j1xsuv2pN%mbjq@earthlink.net... shinypenny <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote: I think people like Urf tend to look intimacy straight in the face, and embrace it with open arms. Seems that way to me. I'm not quite like that myself. I think sometimes it's safer to turn my head away and kinda inch forward tentatively. Every now and then I do manage to make a big leap and faith, but usually it's with my eyes squinted shut and bracing for a potentially violent impact. :-) I agree with you about Urf, and I approach it the same way you do. He may not have been so bold when he was younger, though. I was very shy when I was a young man. I am still somewhat shy but I have overcompensated in some ways. I would not call myself "bold" as much as I would call myself "ignorant".

That's why we love you here on ASM. Such humility. :-)

I entered my relationship without a lot of previous relationships. Particularly relationships that were negative. As a result, I was ignorant of what could go wrong. I did not know that I could fail at relationships.

My H is kind of like that. I'm his first wife, his parents are still
married, he has few bad experiences himself or in his family, and he has
this sunny optimism that everything will work. I, on the other hand
come from a family of divorces, and am divorced myself, so it all seems
fraught with peril to me.

Therefore, when I see failed relationships I say.... there but for the grace of God, go I. I judge (that word again) that in Caren's case, it is the negative impact of previous relationship experiences (including her relatives) that have made her reluctant to fully embrace ANY relationship that could ultimately be painful. It is an understandable self imposed limitation.

Yes, I am very scared to open myself up to another person so much that
they can hurt me badly. But . . . I decided I had to do it, because
that is what life and marriage is about. Scary, but (hopefully)
rewarding. I don't know one way or another about Caren - I look pretty
independent from the outside I expect - I work, I never changed my name,
I spend a lot of time by myself - but I still consider myself very
married.

mbjq@earthlink.net (Emma Anne) wrote in message news:<1g8qf5r.4kcioz1we9ksiN%mbjq@earthlink.net>... urf <urf@nospam.com> wrote: "Emma Anne" <mbjq@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:1g8mogg.hrw9j1xsuv2pN%mbjq@earthlink.net... shinypenny <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote: > I think people like Urf tend to look intimacy straight in the face, > and embrace it with open arms. Seems that way to me. I'm not quite > like that myself. I think sometimes it's safer to turn my head away > and kinda inch forward tentatively. Every now and then I do manage to > make a big leap and faith, but usually it's with my eyes squinted shut > and bracing for a potentially violent impact. :-) I agree with you about Urf, and I approach it the same way you do. He may not have been so bold when he was younger, though. I was very shy when I was a young man. I am still somewhat shy but I have overcompensated in some ways. I would not call myself "bold" as much as I would call myself "ignorant". That's why we love you here on ASM. Such humility. :-) I entered my relationship without a lot of previous relationships. Particularly relationships that were negative. As a result, I was ignorant of what could go wrong. I did not know that I could fail at relationships. My H is kind of like that. I'm his first wife, his parents are still married, he has few bad experiences himself or in his family, and he has this sunny optimism that everything will work. I, on the other hand come from a family of divorces, and am divorced myself, so it all seems fraught with peril to me. Therefore, when I see failed relationships I say.... there but for the grace of God, go I. I judge (that word again) that in Caren's case, it is the negative impact of previous relationship experiences (including her relatives) that have made her reluctant to fully embrace ANY relationship that could ultimately be painful. It is an understandable self imposed limitation. Yes, I am very scared to open myself up to another person so much that they can hurt me badly. But . . . I decided I had to do it, because that is what life and marriage is about. Scary, but (hopefully) rewarding. I don't know one way or another about Caren - I look pretty independent from the outside I expect - I work, I never changed my name, I spend a lot of time by myself - but I still consider myself very married.


I still consider myself very married too. I'm committed to