I agree with your husband.

SD

Before I married my husband, I had a toxic relationship with a man.
It was a relationship that lasted for 8 years, with a lot of splitting
up and getting back together. The relationship ended abruptly and I
never made peace with the ending. I have always stayed in touch with
his daughter via email and we have a nice relationship-I'm sort of
motherly to her. She told me about a year or two ago that he has
Parkinson's Disease and I felt a need to contact him. It took a very
long time for me to finally gather up the nerve to contact him because
I was afraid that he'd ignore it or something.

At any rate, I recently made contact. I told him all about my life
(marriage, children, career, where I live-I no longer live in the same
state as he) and I asked about his life, his illness, etc. He emailed
back and I emailed him back.

I also, from time to time, email my ex-boyfriend from college. I send
him pictures of my kids once in a while and it's a nice
relationship-no pretenses. I'm on great terms with my ex-husband,
having had an incredibly amicable divorce about 21 years ago. My
husband likes him very much and he has stayed at our house (from out
of town) when our son graduated from high school and college.

Okay, here's my question. My husband thinks that it's inappropriate
for me to be emailing ex boyfriends! I see it as something 100%,
totally innocent. I have no motives other than to takl about old
times from time to time. I also stay in touch with lots and lots of
girlfriends and my family. I do web searches on the college and high
school reunion thing, looking for old friends once in a while and just
love to talk to someone from the past.

At any rate, I told me husband that I see it as totally normal and it
is really bugging me that he thinks that it's wrong. I think that is
insane. I told him that I was doing it, so I had nothing to hide.
And I also told him that he could read the stupid emails if he wanted.
I have nothing to hide which is why I told him!

I'd appreciate some thoughts on this...and I am going to share this
thread with him.

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0401301047.3ce093d5@posting.google.c om... Okay, here's my question. My husband thinks that it's inappropriate for me to be emailing ex boyfriends! I see it as something 100%, totally innocent. I have no motives other than to takl about old times from time to time. I also stay in touch with lots and lots of girlfriends and my family. I do web searches on the college and high school reunion thing, looking for old friends once in a while and just love to talk to someone from the past. At any rate, I told me husband that I see it as totally normal and it is really bugging me that he thinks that it's wrong. I think that is insane. I told him that I was doing it, so I had nothing to hide. And I also told him that he could read the stupid emails if he wanted. I have nothing to hide which is why I told him! I'd appreciate some thoughts on this...and I am going to share this thread with him.

If it is truly innocent and stays that way and you aren't hiding anything
from your husband, then I see no harm to keeping in touch with old
boyfriends.

Caren wrote: Before I married my husband, I had a toxic relationship with a man. It was a relationship that lasted for 8 years, with a lot of splitting up and getting back together. The relationship ended abruptly and I never made peace with the ending. I have always stayed in touch with his daughter via email and we have a nice relationship-I'm sort of motherly to her. She told me about a year or two ago that he has Parkinson's Disease and I felt a need to contact him. It took a very long time for me to finally gather up the nerve to contact him because I was afraid that he'd ignore it or something. At any rate, I recently made contact. I told him all about my life (marriage, children, career, where I live-I no longer live in the same state as he) and I asked about his life, his illness, etc. He emailed back and I emailed him back. I also, from time to time, email my ex-boyfriend from college. I send him pictures of my kids once in a while and it's a nice relationship-no pretenses. I'm on great terms with my ex-husband, having had an incredibly amicable divorce about 21 years ago. My husband likes him very much and he has stayed at our house (from out of town) when our son graduated from high school and college. Okay, here's my question. My husband thinks that it's inappropriate for me to be emailing ex boyfriends! I see it as something 100%, totally innocent. I have no motives other than to takl about old times from time to time. I also stay in touch with lots and lots of girlfriends and my family. I do web searches on the college and high school reunion thing, looking for old friends once in a while and just love to talk to someone from the past. At any rate, I told me husband that I see it as totally normal and it is really bugging me that he thinks that it's wrong. I think that is insane. I told him that I was doing it, so I had nothing to hide. And I also told him that he could read the stupid emails if he wanted. I have nothing to hide which is why I told him! I'd appreciate some thoughts on this...and I am going to share this thread with him.

Obviously your husband's concerns and thoughts are the issue here.. and
any feedback we could give you won't change that.

Perhaps you just need to decide what is most important to you. Your
husband's wishes on this, or the ability to keep in contact with
ex-boyfriends.

Personally, I think he's being unrealistic assuming that you've never
given him any reason to doubt your honesty in the past. I'd be slightly
irritated if my husband told me that I couldn't keep in contact with old
friends... but my irritation would come more from wondering what alien
had abducted my husband who doesn't have an ounce of jealousy in his body :P



--
email:
cari_p at comcast dot net

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0401301047.3ce093d5@posting.google.c om... Before I married my husband, I had a toxic relationship with a man. It was a relationship that lasted for 8 years, with a lot of splitting up and getting back together. The relationship ended abruptly and I never made peace with the ending. I have always stayed in touch with his daughter via email and we have a nice relationship-I'm sort of motherly to her. She told me about a year or two ago that he has Parkinson's Disease and I felt a need to contact him. It took a very long time for me to finally gather up the nerve to contact him because I was afraid that he'd ignore it or something. At any rate, I recently made contact. I told him all about my life (marriage, children, career, where I live-I no longer live in the same state as he) and I asked about his life, his illness, etc. He emailed back and I emailed him back. I also, from time to time, email my ex-boyfriend from college. I send him pictures of my kids once in a while and it's a nice relationship-no pretenses. I'm on great terms with my ex-husband, having had an incredibly amicable divorce about 21 years ago. My husband likes him very much and he has stayed at our house (from out of town) when our son graduated from high school and college. Okay, here's my question. My husband thinks that it's inappropriate for me to be emailing ex boyfriends! I see it as something 100%, totally innocent. I have no motives other than to takl about old times from time to time. I also stay in touch with lots and lots of girlfriends and my family. I do web searches on the college and high school reunion thing, looking for old friends once in a while and just love to talk to someone from the past. At any rate, I told me husband that I see it as totally normal and it is really bugging me that he thinks that it's wrong. I think that is insane. I told him that I was doing it, so I had nothing to hide. And I also told him that he could read the stupid emails if he wanted. I have nothing to hide which is why I told him! I'd appreciate some thoughts on this...and I am going to share this thread with him.

well, you probably know what I'm going to say, Caren... I don't see this as
"normal". The ex-husband, yea, that's fine, because you have a child
together. The others.... I mean, I don't want to sound mean here (because I
like you), but you gotta let go. Yea, I know it's your past, but I think
reaching back to past boyfriends is a bit much. I'd spend that time and
energy on the present.

I agree with your husband on the ex-boyfriend thing.

Give it up.

Why would you intentionally do something that bugs your husband?
Is it to assert yourself? I'm all for assertive women, but pick your
battles. Too much ego involved. Think of the symbolism of what
you are doing what does it say to him about you without
actually using words?

Worst case is to do it on the sly.


"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0401301047.3ce093d5@posting.google.c om... Before I married my husband, I had a toxic relationship with a man. It was a relationship that lasted for 8 years, with a lot of splitting up and getting back together. The relationship ended abruptly and I never made peace with the ending. I have always stayed in touch with his daughter via email and we have a nice relationship-I'm sort of motherly to her. She told me about a year or two ago that he has Parkinson's Disease and I felt a need to contact him. It took a very long time for me to finally gather up the nerve to contact him because I was afraid that he'd ignore it or something. At any rate, I recently made contact. I told him all about my life (marriage, children, career, where I live-I no longer live in the same state as he) and I asked about his life, his illness, etc. He emailed back and I emailed him back. I also, from time to time, email my ex-boyfriend from college. I send him pictures of my kids once in a while and it's a nice relationship-no pretenses. I'm on great terms with my ex-husband, having had an incredibly amicable divorce about 21 years ago. My husband likes him very much and he has stayed at our house (from out of town) when our son graduated from high school and college. Okay, here's my question. My husband thinks that it's inappropriate for me to be emailing ex boyfriends! I see it as something 100%, totally innocent. I have no motives other than to takl about old times from time to time. I also stay in touch with lots and lots of girlfriends and my family. I do web searches on the college and high school reunion thing, looking for old friends once in a while and just love to talk to someone from the past. At any rate, I told me husband that I see it as totally normal and it is really bugging me that he thinks that it's wrong. I think that is insane. I told him that I was doing it, so I had nothing to hide. And I also told him that he could read the stupid emails if he wanted. I have nothing to hide which is why I told him! I'd appreciate some thoughts on this...and I am going to share this thread with him.

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:qczSb.95$bn1.47@nwrdny02.gnilink.net... Give it up. Why would you intentionally do something that bugs your husband? Is it to assert yourself? I'm all for assertive women, but pick your battles. Too much ego involved. Think of the symbolism of what you are doing what does it say to him about you without actually using words? Worst case is to do it on the sly.

Although I can understand a man being insecure in a case like this whether
he has reason to be or not, surely you don't mean that women should never
do anything that bugs their husbands? It's not like she deliberately
decided to do something for no reason but to make him mad.

On 30 Jan 2004 10:47:00 -0800, Caren
<caren50@msn.com> wrote:

<Snip>
Okay, here's my question. My husband thinks that it's inappropriate for me to be emailing ex boyfriends! I see it as something 100%, totally innocent. I have no motives other than to takl about old times from time to time. I also stay in touch with lots and lots of girlfriends and my family. I do web searches on the college and high school reunion thing, looking for old friends once in a while and just love to talk to someone from the past.

It makes your husband uncomfortable, and puts a strain on your
relationship. I would stop doing it. And it really doesn't matter how
innocent you believe it is. It makes your husband feel bad. Why do you
want to make someone you love feel bad? Is talking to these men worth it?

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

>At any rate, I told me husband that I see it as totallynormal

I'm right there with ya, Caren.
and itis really bugging me that he thinks that it's wrong.I think that is insane.

<screech> We just parted company. I don't think that most
problems between couples come from their differences. I
think that most problems between couples come from not
accepting their differences. In your situation, neither
one of you seem to be accepting the others' differences
in regards to this topic. To me, the solution to this is
pretty simple in theory. For you to not think he's insane
or think he's wrong in not sharing your opinion on keeping
in touch with people you were once romantically involved
with and for him to not think that your wanting to keep in
touch with people you were once romantically involved with
is inappropriate.

Tracey

>Think of the symbolism of what you are doing what doesit say to him about you without actually using words?

But, what is the symbolism of his actions/attitude? I'm
not so fond of the impression I'm getting here that it's
Caren that is obligated to do something differently just
because her husband doesn't share her beliefs.
Worst case is to do it on the sly.

Eeeeuuuwww, Urf. Can't say as I like the idea of telling
someone to hide something from their spouse.

Tracey

On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 20:56:01 GMT, Tracey
<rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote:Think of the symbolism of what you are doing what doesit say to him about you without actually using words? But, what is the symbolism of his actions/attitude? I'm not so fond of the impression I'm getting here that it's Caren that is obligated to do something differently just because her husband doesn't share her beliefs.

Exactly. And her husband will sometimes be obligated to do something
differently just because she doesn't share his beliefs. It's called
"compromise".

Reminds me of a situation a few years ago, where my wife and a few of her
friends were talking about my wife possibly getting a radical new hairdo.
I asked my wife: "You would do something like that without talking to me
first?". One of her friends piped up (and you reminded me of her just
now) "It's her body, she can do what she wants with it!"

I looked at my wife who wasn't saying anything and I said: "Ok, then I'm
going to the mall to get my ear pierced". My wife said: "On no you're
not!" then realized the implication of what I had just said WRT her desire
to have a radical new hairdo.

The point is, my body is not my own, and her body is not her own. As
married people we have become "part owners" in each other's body. We
won't do anything radical to something that belongs to our spouse any more
than we sould deface any other possession of theirs.

You may think this attitude is outmoded, or completely wrong, but
sometimes you have to put your spouse's happiness before your desires.
That's part of the "we" in a marriage. And the question was: "I have a
question for happily married couples". My wife and I fit the bill going
on 19 years.

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:qczSb.95$bn1.47@nwrdny02.gnilink.net... Give it up. Why would you intentionally do something that bugs your husband? Is it to assert yourself? I'm all for assertive women, but pick your battles. Too much ego involved. Think of the symbolism of what you are doing what does it say to him about you without actually using words?

I agree with you. I also can't understand the "benefit" people get from
doing these kinds of things. I had an old girlfriend that did stuff like
this - and even though she never really admitted it, I *knew* that a little
piece of her was back there with the ex's that she kept in touch with.

I mean, what is the point? Is it to assert yourself, or is it what you get
out of the relationship? I would guess Caren would say the latter (would
you, Caren?)

And if the latter, is it to constantly say "remember when we...". Gee, you
like living in the past? And if not that, is there some sort of new
stimulation one gets from the ex? I mean, if we really peel away all the
layers of bull****, it's one of the two. There would be no reason to have
the contact otherwise.

I said this to Caren, but I don't include the ex-husband in this. I think
it's fine that she gets along with her ex, since they have a child together.

JWB

"Tracey" <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote in message
news:401AC4F1.2050709@aol.com...Think of the symbolism of what you are doing what doesit say to him about you without actually using words? But, what is the symbolism of his actions/attitude? I'm not so fond of the impression I'm getting here that it's Caren that is obligated to do something differently just because her husband doesn't share her beliefs.Worst case is to do it on the sly. Eeeeuuuwww, Urf. Can't say as I like the idea of telling someone to hide something from their spouse.

I don't think that's what he's saying. I think he means that it's the worst
thing IF she did that (which she said she doesn't)

"Tracey" <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote in message
news:401AC4F1.2050709@aol.com...Think of the symbolism of what you are doing what doesit say to him about you without actually using words? But, what is the symbolism of his actions/attitude? I'm not so fond of the impression I'm getting here that it's Caren that is obligated to do something differently just because her husband doesn't share her beliefs.

Yea, but we're talking contact with ex boyfriends. Not exactly "gee, don't
you like my card collecting hobby" or whatnot. I mean, what if her husband
didn't believe in drugs, and she took them? Would your "share her beliefs"
advice be the same?

"JWB" <jwbgoawayickyspam3333@excite.com> wrote in message
news:24ASb.293297$0P1.128715@twister.nyc.rr.com... I agree with you. I also can't understand the "benefit" people get from doing these kinds of things. I had an old girlfriend that did stuff like this - and even though she never really admitted it, I *knew* that a
little piece of her was back there with the ex's that she kept in touch with.

Have you never dated someone and then stayed friends after the
relationship ended? Asking the benefit seems to me like asking why a
person would ever want to have friends in the first place. I had a couple
men I'd dated and stayed friends with. My husband never had a problem
with it and became friends with them too. If it was a situation of
getting in touch with someone for a reason like missing the relationship,
then yes I'd see it as wrong.

Oddly, I'm with the guys on this one.

Do I believe that there is anything nefarious going on? Nope. As far as I
know you are totally upstanding about this. :-)

But, IMO, that isn't the issue. It makes your husband uncomfortable in a way
that, at least I, don't want to make my husband uncomfortable. It makes him
feel vulnerable. It makes him anxious. I don't want to be a source of that
for my husband; I want to be the safe harbor for him.

What feels right for *you* is to keep in contact. But, that doesn't feel right
for the "couple" that you are a part of -- you and your husband. I can
understand that this is a conflict between your personal desires and your
husband's desires, but I'd look at it a bit differently: what may suffer here
is the *marital relationship*, and keeping that safe is my highest priority.
Part of that is my husband feeling like I am respecting his feelings. For me,
lack of contact with ex-boyfriends would be a small price to pay to make him
feel that way.

Sheila

"Chrys" <notarealaddress@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:bvej8q$s33o3$1@ID-198599.news.uni-berlin.de... "JWB" <jwbgoawayickyspam3333@excite.com> wrote in message news:24ASb.293297$0P1.128715@twister.nyc.rr.com... I agree with you. I also can't understand the "benefit" people get from doing these kinds of things. I had an old girlfriend that did stuff like this - and even though she never really admitted it, I *knew* that a little piece of her was back there with the ex's that she kept in touch with. Have you never dated someone and then stayed friends after the relationship ended?


No. Remained cordial, but never "friends".

Asking the benefit seems to me like asking why a person would ever want to have friends in the first place. I had a couple men I'd dated and stayed friends with. My husband never had a problem with it and became friends with them too. If it was a situation of getting in touch with someone for a reason like missing the relationship, then yes I'd see it as wrong.

Most people don't seem to like "ex's" around. If it works for you, great.

--
JWB

e-mail: jwb3333 at excite dot com

Caren wrote:
Okay, here's my question. My husband thinks that it's inappropriate for me to be emailing ex boyfriends! I see it as something 100%, totally innocent. I have no motives other than to takl about old times from time to time. I also stay in touch with lots and lots of girlfriends and my family. I do web searches on the college and high school reunion thing, looking for old friends once in a while and just love to talk to someone from the past.

Yes, it could be something 100% innocent, but that's
not all that matters. It makes your husband uncomfortable.
You have to ask yourself why it's so important for you to
keep in touch with the guy at the expense of your husband's
discomfort. No, I don't believe that you should stop doing
*anything* that annoys your husband, but this is not *anything*!
It's a bit disingenuous to compare it with girlfriends and family,
even if you insist that it's the same to you.
At any rate, I told me husband that I see it as totally normal

You are right to see it as totally normal.
and it is really bugging me that he thinks that it's wrong.

He is right to think it's wrong!! That's the way he feels,
and it's not that unusual. You can call it his insecurity or
whatever, but it's not an unreasonable request that a spouse
stops seeing past loves. You say it bugs you that he doesn't
see it your way. Doesn't it bug you more that he is unhappy about
something that you can easily fix without too much sacrifice?

You asked "happily married couples". I am one, and
as such I can't imagine doing something like this if it bothers
my husband in the least. Keeping in touch with old boyfriends
is just not in par with my husbands happiness and feeling
secure about our relationship. Having said that, I must also
add that I am a very strong independent woman, who wouldn't
tolerate it if my husband was unreasonable and asked me to stop
things that were truly important to me. But keeping an old relationship
is not in that category!

JWB wrote: Chrys queried: Have you never dated someone and then stayed friends after the relationship ended? No. Remained cordial, but never "friends".

Most girls/women I knew when I was trying to date were too
busy running away... :-)

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup@softhome.net | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/

"Chrys" <notarealaddress@lycos.com> writes:
"JWB" <jwbgoawayickyspam3333@excite.com> wrote in message news:24ASb.293297$0P1.128715@twister.nyc.rr.com... I agree with you. I also can't understand the "benefit" people get from doing these kinds of things. I had an old girlfriend that did stuff like this - and even though she never really admitted it, I *knew* that a little piece of her was back there with the ex's that she kept in touch with. Have you never dated someone and then stayed friends after the relationship ended?

Yes. Seems normal to me.

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ewekth11wa.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu... "Chrys" <notarealaddress@lycos.com> writes: "JWB" <jwbgoawayickyspam3333@excite.com> wrote in message news:24ASb.293297$0P1.128715@twister.nyc.rr.com... I agree with you. I also can't understand the "benefit" people get
from doing these kinds of things. I had an old girlfriend that did stuff
like this - and even though she never really admitted it, I *knew* that a little piece of her was back there with the ex's that she kept in touch with. Have you never dated someone and then stayed friends after the relationship ended? Yes. Seems normal to me.

Social, stay-in-contact friends? Or just "friendly", like if you see each
other at the mall, you might have coffee and catch up. There's a difference.

--
JWB

e-mail: jwb3333 at excite dot com

WhansaMi wrote:
But, IMO, that isn't the issue. It makes your husband uncomfortable in a way that, at least I, don't want to make my husband uncomfortable. It makes him feel vulnerable. It makes him anxious. I don't want to be a source of that for my husband; I want to be the safe harbor for him.

Beautifully put, Sheila. I feel exactly the same way.
What feels right for *you* is to keep in contact. But, that doesn't feel right for the "couple" that you are a part of -- you and your husband. I can understand that this is a conflict between your personal desires and your husband's desires, but I'd look at it a bit differently: what may suffer here is the *marital relationship*, and keeping that safe is my highest priority. Part of that is my husband feeling like I am respecting his feelings. For me, lack of contact with ex-boyfriends would be a small price to pay to make him feel that way.

Hear hear! My husband once advised a friend who was
having marriage troubles that he should look for marriage
penny stocks which he had insider information on, and invest
in them (he was in finance field)! Things that are "cheap"
(in terms of physical and emotional investment) but have
very "high return"! I think giving up contact with an old
boyfriend is one of the cheapest ways to make her husband
feel respected and secure.

Hi Caren,

this is my humble opinion: Your husband doesn´t sound like the typical
jealous type. I think if he were, he wouldn´t even get along with your ex
husband. For whatever reason he feels the contact it´s inappropriate. (I´d
ask him why and I´d also refrain from trying to defend myself while he
explains.)
I would then ask my self, what I´m getting out of this. Most people don´t
have the required honesty with themselves to answer this question.

If this isn´t too terribly important, I´d try to reach a compromise.

By the way, I´ve seen a lot of situations start innocently enough, that
slowely detegenerated into an emotional affair and worst, so I´m a little
wary. On the one side, it´s considered healthy to keep in touch with the
exes, but for me, anything more than a coincidential meeting at the mall or
a party or any contact that doesn´t include me or that I didn´t know about
would make me feel uncomfortable. But that´s just me..

Sioban


"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:3754f0b3.0401301047.3ce093d5@posting.google.c om... Before I married my husband, I had a toxic relationship with a man. It was a relationship that lasted for 8 years, with a lot of splitting up and getting back together. (snip) It took a very long time for me to finally gather up the nerve to contact him because I was afraid that he'd ignore it or something. (snip) I also, from time to time, email my ex-boyfriend from college.(snip) I'm on great terms with my ex-husband, having had an incredibly amicable divorce about 21 years ago. My husband likes him very much and he has stayed at our house (snip) My husband thinks that it's inappropriate for me to be emailing ex boyfriends! I see it as something 100%, totally innocent. I have no motives other than to takl about old times from time to time.

"WhansaMi" <whansami@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040130164933.25908.00000800@mb-m23.aol.com...

[] But, IMO, that isn't the issue. It makes your husband uncomfortable in a
way that, at least I, don't want to make my husband uncomfortable. It makes
him feel vulnerable. It makes him anxious. I don't want to be a source of
that for my husband; I want to be the safe harbor for him.
[]

I agree with Sheila. I'm happily married with my 24th anniversary coming up
in a few months.

Jayne

>Hear hear! My husband once advised a friend who washaving marriage troubles that he should look for marriagepenny stocks which he had insider information on, and investin them (he was in finance field)! Things that are "cheap"(in terms of physical and emotional investment) but havevery "high return"! I think giving up contact with an oldboyfriend is one of the cheapest ways to make her husbandfeel respected and secure.

I like that analogy. I know a few people with whom that would resonate when
nothing else would!

Sheila

"Chrys" <notarealaddress@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:bvefgi$r3m9g$1@ID-198599.news.uni-berlin.de... "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:qczSb.95$bn1.47@nwrdny02.gnilink.net... Give it up. Why would you intentionally do something that bugs your husband? Is it to assert yourself? I'm all for assertive women, but pick your battles. Too much ego involved. Think of the symbolism of what you are doing what does it say to him about you without actually using words? Worst case is to do it on the sly. Although I can understand a man being insecure in a case like this whether he has reason to be or not, surely you don't mean that women should never do anything that bugs their husbands? It's not like she deliberately decided to do something for no reason but to make him mad.

If you talk the talk you should walk the walk.

If you say you love someone, you should act like you love someone.

If your partner needs you to behave in some way and it is within your
power to give that to your partner you should do what you are able
to do to behave in the way your partner needs for you to behave.

That said, there are all manor of circumstances that modify the above.

Me, I keep one thing in mind. I love my baby and my baby loves me.
Why?
Because I am her dream of a man.
Why?
Because I am what she needs.
Why?
Because I want to be.
Why?
Because there is nothing she could ask of me that she would not
give back ten fold.

WhansaMi wrote: Oddly, I'm with the guys on this one. Do I believe that there is anything nefarious going on? Nope. As far as I know you are totally upstanding about this. :-) But, IMO, that isn't the issue. It makes your husband uncomfortable in a way that, at least I, don't want to make my husband uncomfortable. It makes him feel vulnerable. It makes him anxious. I don't want to be a source of that for my husband; I want to be the safe harbor for him. What feels right for *you* is to keep in contact. But, that doesn't feel right for the "couple" that you are a part of -- you and your husband. I can understand that this is a conflict between your personal desires and your husband's desires, but I'd look at it a bit differently: what may suffer
here is the *marital relationship*, and keeping that safe is my highest priority. Part of that is my husband feeling like I am respecting his feelings. For
me, lack of contact with ex-boyfriends would be a small price to pay to make him feel that way. Sheila

I think I'd go along with you on this one too, Sheila, although I admit these
things aren't always so clear cut.

My man. Way to lay it out Tony.


"Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message
news:slrnc1likb.ale.tony@home.cigardiary.com... On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 20:56:01 GMT, Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote:Think of the symbolism of what you are doing what doesit say to him about you without actually using words? But, what is the symbolism of his actions/attitude? I'm not so fond of the impression I'm getting here that it's Caren that is obligated to do something differently just because her husband doesn't share her beliefs. Exactly. And her husband will sometimes be obligated to do something differently just because she doesn't share his beliefs. It's called "compromise". Reminds me of a situation a few years ago, where my wife and a few of her friends were talking about my wife possibly getting a radical new hairdo. I asked my wife: "You would do something like that without talking to me first?". One of her friends piped up (and you reminded me of her just now) "It's her body, she can do what she wants with it!" I looked at my wife who wasn't saying anything and I said: "Ok, then I'm going to the mall to get my ear pierced". My wife said: "On no you're not!" then realized the implication of what I had just said WRT her desire to have a radical new hairdo. The point is, my body is not my own, and her body is not her own. As married people we have become "part owners" in each other's body. We won't do anything radical to something that belongs to our spouse any more than we sould deface any other possession of theirs. You may think this attitude is outmoded, or completely wrong, but sometimes you have to put your spouse's happiness before your desires. That's part of the "we" in a marriage. And the question was: "I have a question for happily married couples". My wife and I fit the bill going on 19 years. -Tony -- "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's
time to fertilize your lawn!" Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 13:43:04 -0800, "Chrys"
<notarealaddress@lycos.com> wrote:
"JWB" <jwbgoawayickyspam3333@excite.com> wrote in messagenews:24ASb.293297$0P1.128715@twister.nyc.rr .com... I agree with you. I also can't understand the "benefit" people get from doing these kinds of things. I had an old girlfriend that did stuff like this - and even though she never really admitted it, I *knew* that alittle piece of her was back there with the ex's that she kept in touch with.Have you never dated someone and then stayed friends after therelationship ended? Asking the benefit seems to me like asking why aperson would ever want to have friends in the first place. I had a couplemen I'd dated and stayed friends with. My husband never had a problemwith it and became friends with them too. If it was a situation ofgetting in touch with someone for a reason like missing the relationship,then yes I'd see it as wrong.
Oh I am so glad my husband doesn't have a problem with me having
contact with my ex boyfriends because I am friends with nearly *all*
of them. In fact my ex-husband is best friends with someone I dated.
Yes I am also good friends with my ex husband as well and my husband
and I visit him often and spend thanksgiving with him.

However I will say this, all my ex's are either married or engaged. I
don't think my husband would feel comfortable if I was friends with an
ex who was still unattached. Maybe you should just ask your husband
what exactly makes him uncomfortable?

"JWB" <no1234@nothing.com> writes:
"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:ewekth11wa.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu... "Chrys" <notarealaddress@lycos.com> writes: "JWB" <jwbgoawayickyspam3333@excite.com> wrote in message news:24ASb.293297$0P1.128715@twister.nyc.rr.com... > I agree with you. I also can't understand the "benefit" people get from > doing these kinds of things. I had an old girlfriend that did stuff like > this - and even though she never really admitted it, I *knew* that a little > piece of her was back there with the ex's that she kept in touch with. Have you never dated someone and then stayed friends after the relationship ended? Yes. Seems normal to me. Social, stay-in-contact friends?

That. Not with everyone, but with a couple.

On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 22:17:52 GMT, "JWB"
<jwbgoawayickyspam3333@excite.com> wrote:
"Chrys" <notarealaddress@lycos.com> wrote in messagenews:bvej8q$s33o3$1@ID-198599.news.uni-berlin.de... "JWB" <jwbgoawayickyspam3333@excite.com> wrote in message news:24ASb.293297$0P1.128715@twister.nyc.rr.com... I agree with you. I also can't understand the "benefit" people get from doing these kinds of things. I had an old girlfriend that did stuff like this - and even though she never really admitted it, I *knew* that a little piece of her was back there with the ex's that she kept in touch with. Have you never dated someone and then stayed friends after the relationship ended?No. Remained cordial, but never "friends". Asking the benefit seems to me like asking why a person would ever want to have friends in the first place. I had a couple men I'd dated and stayed friends with. My husband never had a problem with it and became friends with them too. If it was a situation of getting in touch with someone for a reason like missing the relationship, then yes I'd see it as wrong.Most people don't seem to like "ex's" around. If it works for you, great.

I agree with that I don't seem many people who stay in touch with
their ex's. But hey all of my ex's are really decent people. There is
only one ex boyfriend that I am not in touch with and that is because
the lady he is dating doesn't want him to stay in touch with forner
lovers.

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:iyfzdwrjbh.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu... "JWB" <no1234@nothing.com> writes: "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:ewekth11wa.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu... "Chrys" <notarealaddress@lycos.com> writes: > "JWB" <jwbgoawayickyspam3333@excite.com> wrote in message > news:24ASb.293297$0P1.128715@twister.nyc.rr.com... > > I agree with you. I also can't understand the "benefit" people get from > > doing these kinds of things. I had an old girlfriend that did
stuff like > > this - and even though she never really admitted it, I *knew* that
a > little > > piece of her was back there with the ex's that she kept in touch
with. > > Have you never dated someone and then stayed friends after the > relationship ended? Yes. Seems normal to me. Social, stay-in-contact friends? That. Not with everyone, but with a couple.

Ok. That makes more sense.

I can see in some circumstances where some people can remain friends. But,
if your wife expressed discomfort, would you still keep contact?

--
JWB

e-mail: jwb3333 at excite dot com

Chrys wrote:
"urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:qczSb.95$bn1.47@nwrdny02.gnilink.net... Give it up. Why would you intentionally do something that bugs your husband? Is it to assert yourself? I'm all for assertive women, but pick your battles. Too much ego involved. Think of the symbolism of what you are doing what does it say to him about you without actually using words? Worst case is to do it on the sly. Although I can understand a man being insecure in a case like this whether he has reason to be or not, surely you don't mean that women should never do anything that bugs their husbands?

If the spouse (husband or wife) isn't really unreasonable in
their demands why not? What is wrong with trying not to
bug one's spouse if it only means giving up on little things?
It's not like she deliberately decided to do something for no reason but to make him mad.

I would ask "is she she deliberately doing something to
make her husband happy?" The standard of behavior
between a couple shouldn't be merely avoiding deliberate
acts of offense, but proactively doing things to enhance
happiness -- at least that is what I expect in my marriage.

Caren wrote: Before I married my husband, I had a toxic relationship with a man. It was a relationship that lasted for 8 years, with a lot of splitting up and getting back together. The relationship ended abruptly and I never made peace with the ending. I have always stayed in touch with his daughter via email and we have a nice relationship-I'm sort of motherly to her. She told me about a year or two ago that he has Parkinson's Disease and I felt a need to contact him. It took a very long time for me to finally gather up the nerve to contact him because I was afraid that he'd ignore it or something. At any rate, I recently made contact. I told him all about my life (marriage, children, career, where I live-I no longer live in the same state as he) and I asked about his life, his illness, etc. He emailed back and I emailed him back. I also, from time to time, email my ex-boyfriend from college. I send him pictures of my kids once in a while and it's a nice relationship-no pretenses. I'm on great terms with my ex-husband, having had an incredibly amicable divorce about 21 years ago. My husband likes him very much and he has stayed at our house (from out of town) when our son graduated from high school and college. Okay, here's my question. My husband thinks that it's inappropriate for me to be emailing ex boyfriends! I see it as something 100%, totally innocent. I have no motives other than to takl about old times from time to time. I also stay in touch with lots and lots of girlfriends and my family. I do web searches on the college and high school reunion thing, looking for old friends once in a while and just love to talk to someone from the past. At any rate, I told me husband that I see it as totally normal and it is really bugging me that he thinks that it's wrong. I think that is insane. I told him that I was doing it, so I had nothing to hide. And I also told him that he could read the stupid emails if he wanted. I have nothing to hide which is why I told him! I'd appreciate some thoughts on this...and I am going to share this thread with him.

First off I believe you that you aren't doing anything inappropriate. Hey,
this is *you* we're talking about.

Since you know this is all harmless it's understandable that you would be
annoyed that 1) your husband isn't taking your word for it - after all he's
supposed to trust you and 2) he's asking you to stop doing something(s) that
give you innocent pleasure. That will irritate the best of us!

But.

In the case of the man with whom you had the 8 year relationship you've done
a nice thing. You've contacted him, shown concern for his health, perhaps
satisfied your curiosity and been given a second look at the person who was
important to you a long time ago even though you have well and truly moved
on from those times. What more is there to talk about with him, really?

Have you only recently started talking to the other, older, ex-boyfriend?
Because I can understand that your husband might feel threatened by you
reviving old contacts with male friends even if your motivation is similar
for contacting old female friends. Perhaps he's wondering how many more
you're going to look up. :) Quantity could be an issue!

Whether or not your husband is being reasonable isn't all that important but
his feelings are. In the context of your life just how important is keeping
in contact with these people? More important than your husband's feelings on
the subject?

Also, examine what you have asked of your husband in the past. Is it
possible that you have asked and had him stop doing something that he
thought was fairly harmless, simply because it distressed you? I have the
feeling there is at least one issue that you felt was harmful to your
relationship that he thought wasn't at all or only a very little.

A few years ago my husband asked something of me that I felt infringed on me
as an individual, distinct from being his wife. I stood my ground and
refused, wanting to work the issue out for myself in my own time. I did so
and arrived at what he wanted in the end, but on my own terms. To this day
I'm not sure if it was the right thing to do, those sorts of decisions come
with a cost either way but I think what would have been worse would have
been to give in to him and resent him for it.

So, my opinion is that you should probably let these friendships go but make
sure it's because you've weighed all sides of the argument and it's the
right thing for you to do for yourself as much as your husband.

Just my tuppence,
Tai





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"urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:<qczSb.95$bn1.47@nwrdny02.gnilink.net>... Give it up. Why would you intentionally do something that bugs your husband? Is it to assert yourself? I'm all for assertive women, but pick your battles. Too much ego involved. Think of the symbolism of what you are doing what does it say to him about you without actually using words? Worst case is to do it on the sly.

I wasn't intentionally doing anything. I emailed the guy, told my
husband and he got mad. I was doing it before he told me that I was
doing something that he thought was not appropriate. You're going
overboard Urf with your assumptions since all I'm doing is asking for
what other couples think about their spouses doing it. My husband is
going to read this thread and wants to know what other people think.
I'm doing nothing with an agenda. I'm being honest, I have not
emailed anyone since he said it was inappropriate, but it sure as hell
doesn't mean that I'm going to stop. There is NO symbolism. This is
all about my husband's imagination. "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message news:3754f0b3.0401301047.3ce093d5@posting.google.c om... Before I married my husband, I had a toxic relationship with a man. It was a relationship that lasted for 8 years, with a lot of splitting up and getting back together. The relationship ended abruptly and I never made peace with the ending. I have always stayed in touch with his daughter via email and we have a nice relationship-I'm sort of motherly to her. She told me about a year or two ago that he has Parkinson's Disease and I felt a need to contact him. It took a very long time for me to finally gather up the nerve to contact him because I was afraid that he'd ignore it or something. At any rate, I recently made contact. I told him all about my life (marriage, children, career, where I live-I no longer live in the same state as he) and I asked about his life, his illness, etc. He emailed back and I emailed him back. I also, from time to time, email my ex-boyfriend from college. I send him pictures of my kids once in a while and it's a nice relationship-no pretenses. I'm on great terms with my ex-husband, having had an incredibly amicable divorce about 21 years ago. My husband likes him very much and he has stayed at our house (from out of town) when our son graduated from high school and college. Okay, here's my question. My husband thinks that it's inappropriate for me to be emailing ex boyfriends! I see it as something 100%, totally innocent. I have no motives other than to takl about old times from time to time. I also stay in touch with lots and lots of girlfriends and my family. I do web searches on the college and high school reunion thing, looking for old friends once in a while and just love to talk to someone from the past. At any rate, I told me husband that I see it as totally normal and it is really bugging me that he thinks that it's wrong. I think that is insane. I told him that I was doing it, so I had nothing to hide. And I also told him that he could read the stupid emails if he wanted. I have nothing to hide which is why I told him! I'd appreciate some thoughts on this...and I am going to share this thread with him.

Caren wrote: "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:<qczSb.95$bn1.47@nwrdny02.gnilink.net>... Give it up. Why would you intentionally do something that bugs your husband? Is it to assert yourself? I'm all for assertive women, but pick your battles. Too much ego involved. Think of the symbolism of what you are doing what does it say to him about you without actually using words? Worst case is to do it on the sly. I wasn't intentionally doing anything. I emailed the guy, told my husband and he got mad. I was doing it before he told me that I was doing something that he thought was not appropriate. You're going overboard Urf with your assumptions since all I'm doing is asking for what other couples think about their spouses doing it. My husband is going to read this thread and wants to know what other people think. I'm doing nothing with an agenda. I'm being honest, I have not emailed anyone since he said it was inappropriate, but it sure as hell doesn't mean that I'm going to stop. There is NO symbolism. This is all about my husband's imagination.

I hope urf didn't put you on the defensive, Caren. Although I could see how
that could happen.

But did you read what Sheila and some others said? I'm curious how you feel
about it - trying to look at it in a non threatening and non defensive manner.

Ellie <ellie_first@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<401B1ACD.1AE0F927@hotmail.com>... Chrys wrote: "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:qczSb.95$bn1.47@nwrdny02.gnilink.net... Give it up. Why would you intentionally do something that bugs your husband? Is it to assert yourself? I'm all for assertive women, but pick your battles. Too much ego involved. Think of the symbolism of what you are doing what does it say to him about you without actually using words? Worst case is to do it on the sly. Although I can understand a man being insecure in a case like this whether he has reason to be or not, surely you don't mean that women should never do anything that bugs their husbands? If the spouse (husband or wife) isn't really unreasonable in their demands why not? What is wrong with trying not to bug one's spouse if it only means giving up on little things? It's not like she deliberately decided to do something for no reason but to make him mad. I would ask "is she she deliberately doing something to make her husband happy?" The standard of behavior between a couple shouldn't be merely avoiding deliberate acts of offense, but proactively doing things to enhance happiness -- at least that is what I expect in my marriage.

Okay, I just read all of the responses and it sounds as if most of you
think that I should give up my friendships that involved men that I
loved. Okay, so when or if I do that, at what point to I give up
something else that I find innocent and completely one hundred percent
innocent?

What are we supposed to give up when we're married. AT what point do
we say no. About two months ago, my husband got a raise and a new
position. He wanted to buy a truck. A brand new truck. A big truck
and commute many miles a day. A gas guzzler pollutin the environment.
500 dollar a month payments. A big raise in insurance. We bickered
over this issue for two weeks before he finally decided, hell, I"m not
waiting for her approval, I'm buying the truck that I want. I had to
deal with it and move on. Is this any different than the email issue?

I can tell all of you what I think the issue is for my husband. My
husband has the tendency to make bad choices. He does sneaky stuff
and always gets caught. Anything from pornography, to matchmaking
services, to online chat groups and the list goes on. This has gone
on for over 11 years and I have tolerated a lot of crap. Yet, it's
always something. I could spend a week writing a thread about his
choices. He knows that he has a problem and from time to time, can't
control what he does (his words). I have been patient, angry,
empathic, understanding and keep trying to trust him. Then he finds a
way to sabotage it.

What I think is that he does not trust himself and is projecting that
onto me and it is really getting me angry. The angry part is that I
have no ulterior motives. I love communicating with all kinds of
people. This group is a perfect example. I have made friends online
and have emailed people privately. That could be seen as something to
start a new relationship. Hell, I have enough on my hands, I don't
have any desire to start something on the side for god's sake!!!!
Ugh, it's almost repulsive to me to think of cheating.

So, now that you have more info, and might possible want more info,
I'll answer any questions that you might have. I think that my
husband is putting onto me, what is really about him and I resent
that. I have never done anything, thinking that this might hurt my
husband. As I said earlier, since he shared this with me, I have not
done anything behind his back (not that I did before!) On the other
hand, every time that he has done something not too bright and against
what we have agreed upon, not only has he known it was something that
would hurt me, but it's something that he has hidden. He sucks at
hiding things. I am like the master dog sniffer. I get gut instincts
all of the time and can almost guess what's going on. By the way, due
to his history, he has said that it's okay for me to check his email
if I feel insecure. I have found emails that he has written back and
forth to a woman he met in a chat room. Talk about intimate! NONE of
my emails are anything like that! Not even close. The difference is
that my stuff is not about looking for something new or exciting. My
stuff is about caring about people who were once important in my
life....men or women.

I'm in a people field. I'm into communication and I certainly am not
into starting up an affair or any kind of intimacy. I resent that
it's being misread and that I'm not being trusted when I think that
it's really about him not trusting himself.

Okay, enough already :-)

Caren wrote:

<snip>
So, now that you have more info, and might possible want more info, I'll answer any questions that you might have. I think that my husband is putting onto me, what is really about him and I resent that. I have never done anything, thinking that this might hurt my husband. As I said earlier, since he shared this with me, I have not done anything behind his back (not that I did before!) On the other hand, every time that he has done something not too bright and against what we have agreed upon, not only has he known it was something that would hurt me, but it's something that he has hidden. He sucks at hiding things. I am like the master dog sniffer. I get gut instincts all of the time and can almost guess what's going on. By the way, due to his history, he has said that it's okay for me to check his email if I feel insecure. I have found emails that he has written back and forth to a woman he met in a chat room. Talk about intimate! NONE of my emails are anything like that! Not even close. The difference is that my stuff is not about looking for something new or exciting. My stuff is about caring about people who were once important in my life....men or women.

Okay, so now I'm cross with your husband. I thought he'd stopped all that at
your request and it was history. No wonder you're mad.

This is for D:

You know Caren is the soul of propriety. Count your blessings and look to
your own behaviour before you distrust hers. You have a lovely caring woman
there who is intensely loyal to you. Don't mess that up.

Tai




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"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
Okay, I just read all of the responses and it sounds as if most of you think that I should give up my friendships that involved men that I loved.

But you don't love them anymore, right?

So, what's the big deal?

Okay, so when or if I do that, at what point to I give up something else that I find innocent and completely one hundred percent innocent? What are we supposed to give up when we're married. AT what point do we say no.


So, is this a bit of a power play, then?

About two months ago, my husband got a raise and a new position. He wanted to buy a truck. A brand new truck. A big truck and commute many miles a day. A gas guzzler pollutin the environment. 500 dollar a month payments. A big raise in insurance. We bickered over this issue for two weeks before he finally decided, hell, I"m not waiting for her approval, I'm buying the truck that I want. I had to deal with it and move on. Is this any different than the email issue?

Yup, it's at least partly a power play.

It's a bit different. I'll bet he could argue here *for* the truck and make
somewhat of a convincing case. Is it right he bought it without your
blessing? No, not really. But he could say things like "well, *I* got the
raise, and that pays for it... I needed a new truck anyway.... I haul
garbage to the dump, I haul stuff for the yard, etc etc".

I'm not saying it's right, but I'm betting he has some "valid points". On
the other hand, the way I see it, you really have no valid points for
wanting to contact ex's in addition to your admitedly full online life. To
me, this seems like a personality issue with you - the "I'm not giving up
part of myself for you" - and I can see some of that being good, too. It's
just this is a funny place to make a stand.

I see no good reason to remain in contact with ex's (more below)

I can tell all of you what I think the issue is for my husband. My husband has the tendency to make bad choices. He does sneaky stuff and always gets caught. Anything from pornography, to matchmaking services, to online chat groups and the list goes on. This has gone on for over 11 years and I have tolerated a lot of crap. Yet, it's always something. I could spend a week writing a thread about his choices. He knows that he has a problem and from time to time, can't control what he does (his words). I have been patient, angry, empathic, understanding and keep trying to trust him. Then he finds a way to sabotage it. What I think is that he does not trust himself and is projecting that onto me and it is really getting me angry. The angry part is that I have no ulterior motives.



OMG, how can you write the above complaints, and then say you have no
ulterior motives?

I can see your frustration, though. The "Oops I can't help myself" defense
is valid up until maybe 9th grade. After that, it gets more and more
pathetic. So, he "can't help" loggin onto a dating site? Are you kidding?



I love communicating with all kinds of people. This group is a perfect example. I have made friends online and have emailed people privately. That could be seen as something to start a new relationship. Hell, I have enough on my hands, I don't have any desire to start something on the side for god's sake!!!! Ugh, it's almost repulsive to me to think of cheating.


That's not the point. I'm sure hubby doesn't think you're going to set
dates. The point, more or less, is *why* do you feel the need to communicate
with *ex boyfriends*? You say yourself you have this whole world of people
to communicate with - why does it *have* to include men you've loved and
slept with?

So, now that you have more info, and might possible want more info, I'll answer any questions that you might have. I think that my husband is putting onto me, what is really about him and I resent that.


I think it's the other way around. I think this is a part of you that
doesn't want to be his, because in your eyes, being his isn't all that
great.


I have never done anything, thinking that this might hurt my husband. As I said earlier, since he shared this with me, I have not done anything behind his back (not that I did before!) On the other hand, every time that he has done something not too bright and against what we have agreed upon, not only has he known it was something that would hurt me, but it's something that he has hidden.


But these are two separate issues. The old "two wrongs don't make a right"


He sucks at hiding things. I am like the master dog sniffer. I get gut instincts all of the time and can almost guess what's going on. By the way, due to his history, he has said that it's okay for me to check his email if I feel insecure. I have found emails that he has written back and forth to a woman he met in a chat room. Talk about intimate! NONE of my emails are anything like that! Not even close. The difference is that my stuff is not about looking for something new or exciting. My stuff is about caring about people who were once important in my life....men or women.


Aside from family, I want to be the only man that my wife really cares
about. Period. And I'm not a very jealous person.

I'm in a people field. I'm into communication and I certainly am not into starting up an affair or any kind of intimacy. I resent that it's being misread and that I'm not being trusted when I think that it's really about him not trusting himself. Okay, enough already :-)

I honestly don't think it's trust on his part. I think it's more about being
uncomfortable that you would still have feelings (not romantic - you've made
that clear) for a man you used to be intimate with. I would be uncomfortable
with that, too.

This is the most open I have ever seen you here, Caren (I still can't get
used to that name). I hope everything is ok. From the sound of it, you seem
a bit pissed.

To wrap this up, I agree that you shouldn't be contacting ex's. It would
make me feel uncomfortable, without it being a "trust" issue. But from what
you write, you have plenty of good reason to want to communicate with
others, too. He needs to start giving a **** about YOUR feelings. And quick.

JWB

Caren wrote: Ellie <ellie_first@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<401B1ACD.1AE0F927@hotmail.com>... Chrys wrote: "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:qczSb.95$bn1.47@nwrdny02.gnilink.net...> Give it up.>> Why would you intentionally do something that bugs your husband?> Is it to assert yourself? I'm all for assertive women, but pick your> battles. Too much ego involved. Think of the symbolism of what> you are doing what does it say to him about you without> actually using words?>> Worst case is to do it on the sly. Although I can understand a man being insecure in a case like this whether he has reason to be or not, surely you don't mean that women should never do anything that bugs their husbands? If the spouse (husband or wife) isn't really unreasonable in their demands why not? What is wrong with trying not to bug one's spouse if it only means giving up on little things? It's not like she deliberately decided to do something for no reason but to make him mad. I would ask "is she she deliberately doing something to make her husband happy?" The standard of behavior between a couple shouldn't be merely avoiding deliberate acts of offense, but proactively doing things to enhance happiness -- at least that is what I expect in my marriage. Okay, I just read all of the responses and it sounds as if most of you think that I should give up my friendships that involved men that I loved. Okay, so when or if I do that, at what point to I give up something else that I find innocent and completely one hundred percent innocent? What are we supposed to give up when we're married. AT what point do we say no. About two months ago, my husband got a raise and a new position. He wanted to buy a truck. A brand new truck. A big truck and commute many miles a day. A gas guzzler pollutin the environment. 500 dollar a month payments. A big raise in insurance. We bickered over this issue for two weeks before he finally decided, hell, I"m not waiting for her approval, I'm buying the truck that I want. I had to deal with it and move on. Is this any different than the email issue? I can tell all of you what I think the issue is for my husband. My husband has the tendency to make bad choices. He does sneaky stuff and always gets caught. Anything from pornography, to matchmaking services, to online chat groups and the list goes on. This has gone on for over 11 years and I have tolerated a lot of crap. Yet, it's always something. I could spend a week writing a thread about his choices. He knows that he has a problem and from time to time, can't control what he does (his words). I have been patient, angry, empathic, understanding and keep trying to trust him. Then he finds a way to sabotage it. What I think is that he does not trust himself and is projecting that onto me and it is really getting me angry. The angry part is that I have no ulterior motives. I love communicating with all kinds of people. This group is a perfect example. I have made friends online and have emailed people privately. That could be seen as something to start a new relationship. Hell, I have enough on my hands, I don't have any desire to start something on the side for god's sake!!!! Ugh, it's almost repulsive to me to think of cheating. So, now that you have more info, and might possible want more info, I'll answer any questions that you might have. I think that my husband is putting onto me, what is really about him and I resent that. I have never done anything, thinking that this might hurt my husband. As I said earlier, since he shared this with me, I have not done anything behind his back (not that I did before!) On the other hand, every time that he has done something not too bright and against what we have agreed upon, not only has he known it was something that would hurt me, but it's something that he has hidden. He sucks at hiding things. I am like the master dog sniffer. I get gut instincts all of the time and can almost guess what's going on. By the way, due to his history, he has said that it's okay for me to check his email if I feel insecure. I have found emails that he has written back and forth to a woman he met in a chat room. Talk about intimate! NONE of my emails are anything like that! Not even close. The difference is that my stuff is not about looking for something new or exciting. My stuff is about caring about people who were once important in my life....men or women. I'm in a people field. I'm into communication and I certainly am not into starting up an affair or any kind of intimacy. I resent that it's being misread and that I'm not being trusted when I think that it's really about him not trusting himself. Okay, enough already :-)

OK Caren, in view of all this, perhaps you are right, and it is not all that
unreasonable. I can tell this is a bit of a hot button for you, but from what
you have said here, I think I can see your side a bit better.

For your own sake, I'm sorry if some of us made you defensive in here.

"JWB" <nospam1111@nowhere.com> writes:
"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:iyfzdwrjbh.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu... "JWB" <no1234@nothing.com> writes: "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:ewekth11wa.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu... > "Chrys" <notarealaddress@lycos.com> writes: > > > "JWB" <jwbgoawayickyspam3333@excite.com> wrote in message > > news:24ASb.293297$0P1.128715@twister.nyc.rr.com... > > > I agree with you. I also can't understand the "benefit" people get from > > > doing these kinds of things. I had an old girlfriend that did stuff like > > > this - and even though she never really admitted it, I *knew* that a > > little > > > piece of her was back there with the ex's that she kept in touch with. > > > > Have you never dated someone and then stayed friends after the > > relationship ended? > > Yes. Seems normal to me. Social, stay-in-contact friends? That. Not with everyone, but with a couple. Ok. That makes more sense. I can see in some circumstances where some people can remain friends. But, if your wife expressed discomfort, would you still keep contact?

This is one of those hypotheticals that is hard to grasp. If my wife
was uncomfortable about this, she wouldn't be who she was, and I
wouldn't be with her.

And no, I don't mean that this is a big deal for me, but the fact that
she trusts me, and the fact that she likes people or not based on who
they are and not on things like relationships they've had in the past
is one of the things I love about her.

But, if somehow she was who she was and she was _also_ uncomfortable
about this, then I wouldn't care about keeping contact. It just isn't
that important.

Caren is in a somewhat different boat though.

"JWB" <nospam1111@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:jkISb.295339$0P1.67871@twister.nyc.rr.com... "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message Okay, I just read all of the responses and it sounds as if most of you think that I should give up my friendships that involved men that I loved. But you don't love them anymore, right? So, what's the big deal? Okay, so when or if I do that, at what point to I give up something else that I find innocent and completely one hundred percent innocent? What are we supposed to give up when we're married. AT what point do we say no. So, is this a bit of a power play, then? About two months ago, my husband got a raise and a new position. He wanted to buy a truck. A brand new truck. A big truck and commute many miles a day. A gas guzzler pollutin the environment. 500 dollar a month payments. A big raise in insurance. We bickered over this issue for two weeks before he finally decided, hell, I"m not waiting for her approval, I'm buying the truck that I want. I had to deal with it and move on. Is this any different than the email issue? Yup, it's at least partly a power play. It's a bit different. I'll bet he could argue here *for* the truck and
make somewhat of a convincing case. Is it right he bought it without your blessing? No, not really. But he could say things like "well, *I* got the raise, and that pays for it... I needed a new truck anyway.... I haul garbage to the dump, I haul stuff for the yard, etc etc". I'm not saying it's right, but I'm betting he has some "valid points". On the other hand, the way I see it, you really have no valid points for wanting to contact ex's in addition to your admitedly full online life. To me, this seems like a personality issue with you - the "I'm not giving up part of myself for you" - and I can see some of that being good, too. It's just this is a funny place to make a stand. I see no good reason to remain in contact with ex's (more below) I can tell all of you what I think the issue is for my husband. My husband has the tendency to make bad choices. He does sneaky stuff and always gets caught. Anything from pornography, to matchmaking services, to online chat groups and the list goes on. This has gone on for over 11 years and I have tolerated a lot of crap. Yet, it's always something. I could spend a week writing a thread about his choices. He knows that he has a problem and from time to time, can't control what he does (his words). I have been patient, angry, empathic, understanding and keep trying to trust him. Then he finds a way to sabotage it. What I think is that he does not trust himself and is projecting that onto me and it is really getting me angry. The angry part is that I have no ulterior motives. OMG, how can you write the above complaints, and then say you have no ulterior motives? I can see your frustration, though. The "Oops I can't help myself" defense is valid up until maybe 9th grade. After that, it gets more and more pathetic. So, he "can't help" loggin onto a dating site? Are you kidding? I love communicating with all kinds of people. This group is a perfect example. I have made friends online and have emailed people privately. That could be seen as something to start a new relationship. Hell, I have enough on my hands, I don't have any desire to start something on the side for god's sake!!!! Ugh, it's almost repulsive to me to think of cheating. That's not the point. I'm sure hubby doesn't think you're going to set dates. The point, more or less, is *why* do you feel the need to
communicate with *ex boyfriends*? You say yourself you have this whole world of people to communicate with - why does it *have* to include men you've loved and slept with? So, now that you have more info, and might possible want more info, I'll answer any questions that you might have. I think that my husband is putting onto me, what is really about him and I resent that. I think it's the other way around. I think this is a part of you that doesn't want to be his, because in your eyes, being his isn't all that great.

Wow. I like the way this is said.
I have never done anything, thinking that this might hurt my husband. As I said earlier, since he shared this with me, I have not done anything behind his back (not that I did before!) On the other hand, every time that he has done something not too bright and against what we have agreed upon, not only has he known it was something that would hurt me, but it's something that he has hidden. But these are two separate issues. The old "two wrongs don't make a right" He sucks at hiding things. I am like the master dog sniffer. I get gut instincts all of the time and can almost guess what's going on. By the way, due to his history, he has said that it's okay for me to check his email if I feel insecure. I have found emails that he has written back and forth to a woman he met in a chat room. Talk about intimate! NONE of my emails are anything like that! Not even close. The difference is that my stuff is not about looking for something new or exciting. My stuff is about caring about people who were once important in my life....men or women. Aside from family, I want to be the only man that my wife really cares about. Period. And I'm not a very jealous person. I'm in a people field. I'm into communication and I certainly am not into starting up an affair or any kind of intimacy. I resent that it's being misread and that I'm not being trusted when I think that it's really about him not trusting himself. Okay, enough already :-) I honestly don't think it's trust on his part. I think it's more about
being uncomfortable that you would still have feelings (not romantic - you've
made that clear) for a man you used to be intimate with. I would be
uncomfortable with that, too. This is the most open I have ever seen you here, Caren (I still can't get used to that name). I hope everything is ok. From the sound of it, you
seem a bit pissed. To wrap this up, I agree that you shouldn't be contacting ex's. It would make me feel uncomfortable, without it being a "trust" issue. But from
what you write, you have plenty of good reason to want to communicate with others, too. He needs to start giving a **** about YOUR feelings. And
quick. JWB

"Bill in Co." <LostInTime@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<xIHSb.4331$F23.95@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>... Caren wrote: "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:<qczSb.95$bn1.47@nwrdny02.gnilink.net>... Give it up. Why would you intentionally do something that bugs your husband? Is it to assert yourself? I'm all for assertive women, but pick your battles. Too much ego involved. Think of the symbolism of what you are doing what does it say to him about you without actually using words? Worst case is to do it on the sly. I wasn't intentionally doing anything. I emailed the guy, told my husband and he got mad. I was doing it before he told me that I was doing something that he thought was not appropriate. You're going overboard Urf with your assumptions since all I'm doing is asking for what other couples think about their spouses doing it. My husband is going to read this thread and wants to know what other people think. I'm doing nothing with an agenda. I'm being honest, I have not emailed anyone since he said it was inappropriate, but it sure as hell doesn't mean that I'm going to stop. There is NO symbolism. This is all about my husband's imagination. I hope urf didn't put you on the defensive, Caren. Although I could see how that could happen. But did you read what Sheila and some others said? I'm curious how you feel about it - trying to look at it in a non threatening and non defensive manner.

Yes Bill, I did sound defensive, didn't I? I think that the problem
is, is that I'm frustrated as all hell. I have only emailed the guy
three times. As far as by college boyfriend...I'm on his mailing list
with his brothers and sister. Whenever he comes across a virus, has
some photos of snow or a change of address, he emails me. The last I
emailed him was to tell him in an announcement that I sent out to
everyone, was how proud of my husband I was for winning his election
and being promoted.

My frustration comes from the issue of trust...or lack thereof. It's
one thing to know that you've wronged someone. You apologoize and
stop doing it. It's another, if it's misplaced trust.

I wrote a response last night which doesn't seem to have made it here
and it explains my theory on why he is not thrilled with me emailing.
Another frustration that I'm feeling right now is that this is not
causing a serious problem in our marriage AND he is not steaming and
seething about it. If the latest post that wrote last night, that
gives some history doesn't show up, I'll write it again today.

As Tai pointed out in her post, we do have some history with making
choices. However, without going into too much detail, the choices
that my husband has made in the past, to his admission, were dumb.
Sadly, he continues to make some of those choices sort of on a
continuum.

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
Yes Bill, I did sound defensive, didn't I? I think that the problem is, is that I'm frustrated as all hell. I have only emailed the guy three times. As far as by college boyfriend...I'm on his mailing list with his brothers and sister. Whenever he comes across a virus, has some photos of snow or a change of address, he emails me. The last I emailed him was to tell him in an announcement that I sent out to everyone, was how proud of my husband I was for winning his election and being promoted.


Can you kinda see what you're saying here? You're trying to justify this by
including your husband and the ex's siblings. The "see, he's not just
e-mailing me - he's e-mailing his sister, too"

My frustration comes from the issue of trust...or lack thereof. It's one thing to know that you've wronged someone. You apologoize and stop doing it. It's another, if it's misplaced trust.

That is the diagnosis you are hoping for, but I do not see it that way at
all. If your husband had trust issues, he wouldn't be all that thrilled with
your ex husband sleeping over. Believe me. I honestly don't think this is
trust. Everytime an "ex" comes up, people scream "trust"... and many times,
it's *not* "trust", but more like respect, and yes, maybe some low-level
jealousy (the healthy kind)

To me, this is more about *you* not wanting to give up this little part of
yourself.

I'll ask again - why are these ex's *so* important when you admit you almost
don't have time for what's on your plate now? You have all these online
people to communicate and share your life with - why must it include
ex-boyfriends?

I wrote a response last night which doesn't seem to have made it here and it explains my theory on why he is not thrilled with me emailing. Another frustration that I'm feeling right now is that this is not causing a serious problem in our marriage AND he is not steaming and seething about it. If the latest post that wrote last night, that gives some history doesn't show up, I'll write it again today. As Tai pointed out in her post, we do have some history with making choices. However, without going into too much detail, the choices that my husband has made in the past, to his admission, were dumb. Sadly, he continues to make some of those choices sort of on a continuum.

and I think this is partly your response to that.

JWB

"Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<bvff77$rdq78$1@ID-123442.news.uni-berlin.de>... Caren wrote: Before I married my husband, I had a toxic relationship with a man.blah blah blah snipped I'd appreciate some thoughts on this...and I am going to share this thread with him. First off I believe you that you aren't doing anything inappropriate. Hey, this is *you* we're talking about.

Thanks Tai. This is part of the point. Even YOU know I can be
trusted and you live on the other side of the world.
Since you know this is all harmless it's understandable that you would be annoyed that 1) your husband isn't taking your word for it - after all he's supposed to trust you and 2) he's asking you to stop doing something(s) that give you innocent pleasure. That will irritate the best of us! But.

I just loved your but :-) In the case of the man with whom you had the 8 year relationship you've done a nice thing. You've contacted him, shown concern for his health, perhaps satisfied your curiosity and been given a second look at the person who was important to you a long time ago even though you have well and truly moved on from those times. What more is there to talk about with him, really?

For one, I feel like there are some unanswered questions and for
another, I also like keeping doors open, as in, if he feels that he
wants to email me, I genuinely would like him to see me as a person
who might help him when he needs support through his illness. I'm the
type that CONSTANTLY tells people, call me if you need help, please,
come over and talk to me if you need to release your stress, call in
the middle of the night if you need me. I haven't said this to him,
but I have a neighbor who I'm not terribly close to, but her husband
is very sick and she has two small kids. It's just me, I like to help
people.

Have you only recently started talking to the other, older, ex-boyfriend? Because I can understand that your husband might feel threatened by you reviving old contacts with male friends even if your motivation is similar for contacting old female friends. Perhaps he's wondering how many more you're going to look up. :) Quantity could be an issue!

No, the other ex has been ongoing (very infrequently) and I kept in
touch with him either via mail or phone, long before I met my husband.
I graduated from college in 1975 and I met my current husband in
1992. Whether or not your husband is being reasonable isn't all that important but his feelings are. In the context of your life just how important is keeping in contact with these people? More important than your husband's feelings on the subject?

My thinking is that although he has a right to feel how he does, I'd
like him to look at why he is feeling this way. It's not that I'd die
if I didn't contact these guys, it is though a way, I think, for my
husband to control what I'm doing, although it's an innocent thing.
Will ASM be next? At one point, a while back, I had left a post to
Sourdough on the computer and he saw it. He was not happy with it.
Again, an issue of, ASM is a place that I come to talk, make friends,
help and for instance today, post one of my problems. Also, examine what you have asked of your husband in the past. Is it possible that you have asked and had him stop doing something that he thought was fairly harmless, simply because it distressed you? I have the feeling there is at least one issue that you felt was harmful to your relationship that he thought wasn't at all or only a very little.

I touched lightly on that issue in a post last night and it hasn't
showed up yet. I will repost it if it doesn't show up soon. He
finally came to realize that his "harmless" stuff, really wasn't
harmless and he went for help. I'll go into that another time (maybe
:-)
A few years ago my husband asked something of me that I felt infringed on me as an individual, distinct from being his wife. I stood my ground and refused, wanting to work the issue out for myself in my own time. I did so and arrived at what he wanted in the end, but on my own terms. To this day I'm not sure if it was the right thing to do, those sorts of decisions come with a cost either way but I think what would have been worse would have been to give in to him and resent him for it.

I agree Tai. This isn't a matter of he is right, I am wrong however,
I am willing to read all of the comments that folks have made here and
he needs to look inward at what is really bugging him about this. Is
it about what I'm doing? Or is it about him imagining what I am
doing? Or is it about what he'd be doing? Or has done. So, my opinion is that you should probably let these friendships go but make sure it's because you've weighed all sides of the argument and it's the right thing for you to do for yourself as much as your husband. Just my tuppence,

Just your tuppence, eh? You're so cute :-)

I am going to weigh all of this. I usually do my little kick and
scream at first but I am a very reasonable person. I would not
intentionally hurt someone, but I do sometimes give up easily and lose
parts of myself as a result. I tend to sell myself short and in this
matter, I want us both to come out of it as if neither of us were sold
short. Perhaps I sound like a baby kicking and screaming, but my
husband has no reason not to trust me. He has reason not to trust
himself and that is what is frustrating the heck out of me. Plus I
didn't work out all week, have pms and my daughter was home sick for 3
days. That adds to the mix of frustration.
Tai --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.574 / Virus Database: 364 - Release Date: 29/01/2004

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0401310718.6acd6577@posting.google.c om...
For one, I feel like there are some unanswered questions and for another, I also like keeping doors open, as in, if he feels that he wants to email me, I genuinely would like him to see me as a person who might help him when he needs support through his illness.

Well, for what it's worth, I would *hate* this part of you if I were married
to you. My wife is MY wife. She's not Mother Theresa, and I'm not sharing
her with sick ex's.

The line about keeping doors open.... I have to ask - do you have commitment
issues? Aside from your kids, is your husband *without question* the number
one person in your life?

I know I'm asking hard questions, especially if he's going to read this
thread. Sorry.

JWB

"JWB" <nospam1111@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:nGPSb.168502$4F2.19843052@twister.nyc.rr.com. .. "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message Yes Bill, I did sound defensive, didn't I? I think that the problem is, is that I'm frustrated as all hell. I have only emailed the guy three times. As far as by college boyfriend...I'm on his mailing list with his brothers and sister. Whenever he comes across a virus, has some photos of snow or a change of address, he emails me. The last I emailed him was to tell him in an announcement that I sent out to everyone, was how proud of my husband I was for winning his election and being promoted. Can you kinda see what you're saying here? You're trying to justify this
by including your husband and the ex's siblings. The "see, he's not just e-mailing me - he's e-mailing his sister, too"

Actually, I saw that a little differently. I'm on several people's mailing
list for this kind of thing myself, so I'm familiar with the issue. It
takes it from the realm of being a personal e-mail, directed toward you,
into the realm of being a group-email which is nuch, much less personal. To
me it is almost like being on a person's Christmas Card mailing list - these
messages are not on the same level as getting a personal letter at all. I
thought that Caren included that part to show that they weren't exchanging
steamy e-mails or anything - that the messages sent were in fact sent to a
larger group.

To me, this is more about *you* not wanting to give up this little part of yourself. I'll ask again - why are these ex's *so* important when you admit you
almost don't have time for what's on your plate now? You have all these online people to communicate and share your life with - why must it include ex-boyfriends?

Could there be some embarrassment factor? It could feel a little
humiliating to some personality types to have to tell somebody "please take
me off your e-mail distribution list, because my husband doesn't like it".

Just a thought (even though I'm not part of one of those happily married
couples originally asked for)

Joy

"Joy" <fairly_happy_doesn't_need_any_more_spam@withoutspa myahoo.com> writes:
"JWB" <nospam1111@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:nGPSb.168502$4F2.19843052@twister.nyc.rr.com. .. "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message Yes Bill, I did sound defensive, didn't I? I think that the problem is, is that I'm frustrated as all hell. I have only emailed the guy three times. As far as by college boyfriend...I'm on his mailing list with his brothers and sister. Whenever he comes across a virus, has some photos of snow or a change of address, he emails me. The last I emailed him was to tell him in an announcement that I sent out to everyone, was how proud of my husband I was for winning his election and being promoted. Can you kinda see what you're saying here? You're trying to justify this by including your husband and the ex's siblings. The "see, he's not just e-mailing me - he's e-mailing his sister, too" Actually, I saw that a little differently. I'm on several people's mailing list for this kind of thing myself, so I'm familiar with the issue. It takes it from the realm of being a personal e-mail, directed toward you, into the realm of being a group-email which is nuch, much less personal. To me it is almost like being on a person's Christmas Card mailing list - these messages are not on the same level as getting a personal letter at all. I thought that Caren included that part to show that they weren't exchanging steamy e-mails or anything - that the messages sent were in fact sent to a larger group.

Yeah. It's like the difference between going out to lunch with a
friend, and going to a party which that friend happens to be at also.


I keep thinking about this thread even though I haven't really
contributed to it. Everyone says "maybe you're not doing anything
wrong, but if it makes your husband uncomfortable, just stop it." I
see some validity to this argument, but only some.

I guess what I want to say is "Mr. Caren: what is this really about?
What is it you _aren't_ getting that you want? And can you ask for that
instead of asking Caren to stop chatting with her friends?"

Of course this was my reaction to the "cool girl" in the band which
her husband didn't like too.


I think this comes out of the idea that I want to make my wife happy,
but I want to do it by doing positive stuff, not by avoiding doing
things which don't directly concern her (unless they are somehow
offensive). I think even if you are part of a couple, you are still
an individual. As an individual I want a good reason not to do
something I care about. I have to add though that for me this is a
little abstract, since this isn't the kind of issue that comes up for
us.

"Joy" <fairly_happy_doesn't_need_any_more_spam@withoutspa myahoo.com> wrote
in message news:l2QSb.3420$tl5.13@bignews1.bellsouth.net... "JWB" <nospam1111@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:nGPSb.168502$4F2.19843052@twister.nyc.rr.com. .. "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message Yes Bill, I did sound defensive, didn't I? I think that the problem is, is that I'm frustrated as all hell. I have only emailed the guy three times. As far as by college boyfriend...I'm on his mailing list with his brothers and sister. Whenever he comes across a virus, has some photos of snow or a change of address, he emails me. The last I emailed him was to tell him in an announcement that I sent out to everyone, was how proud of my husband I was for winning his election and being promoted. Can you kinda see what you're saying here? You're trying to justify this by including your husband and the ex's siblings. The "see, he's not just e-mailing me - he's e-mailing his sister, too" Actually, I saw that a little differently. I'm on several people's
mailing list for this kind of thing myself, so I'm familiar with the issue. It takes it from the realm of being a personal e-mail, directed toward you, into the realm of being a group-email which is nuch, much less personal.
To me it is almost like being on a person's Christmas Card mailing list -
these messages are not on the same level as getting a personal letter at all. I thought that Caren included that part to show that they weren't exchanging steamy e-mails or anything - that the messages sent were in fact sent to a larger group.


I took it for granted that she wasn't exchanging steamy e-mails. I think
steamy e-mails / trust have little to nothing to do with this.

To me, this is more about *you* not wanting to give up this little part
of yourself. I'll ask again - why are these ex's *so* important when you admit you almost don't have time for what's on your plate now? You have all these online people to communicate and share your life with - why must it include ex-boyfriends? Could there be some embarrassment factor? It could feel a little humiliating to some personality types to have to tell somebody "please
take me off your e-mail distribution list, because my husband doesn't like it". Just a thought (even though I'm not part of one of those happily married couples originally asked for)


Perhaps. But mail filters work just as well. If she's worried about the
other person's reaction... well, that's my whole point. Why would she even
*care* about the ex's reaction?

"JWB" <nospam1111@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:fpQSb.296094$0P1.56408@twister.nyc.rr.com... Perhaps. But mail filters work just as well. If she's worried about the other person's reaction... well, that's my whole point. Why would she even *care* about the ex's reaction?

I don't know - this is just throwing out a couple of possible scenarios for
discussion:

Maybe because she considers the ex to be a friend - so for her it is a
*friends* reaction, not an *ex's* reaction at all, and she does care what
her friends think.

Maybe it isn't the ex's reaction she is concerned about, but rather her own
reaction.

Maybe it is just makes her feel embarrassed in general to have to admit that
she is partnered with a guy who would tell her to give up something that she
feels is integral to her sense of self - maybe to her it makes her feel
squelched and demeaned and she doesn't want to admit that to people who know
her in RL.

Maybe it is none of these - I don't think Caren said.

Joy

Hi, Caren,

I have more questions than answers/suggestions, but some of these
thoughts may have passed through your husband's mind.

1. Who's the ex-husband: the guy with whom you were in an 8-year
toxic relationship, your ex-boyfriend from college or someone else?

2. Might your husband feel you will fall back into some kind of toxic
relationship with this man. I find it interesting that you hadn't
felt the need to contact him until you found out he had Parkinson's.
You also were afraid of his response. It seems obvious to me that you
still have significant feelings for this man.

Your husband doesn't sound like the unreasonable jealous type. I bet
he's comfortable with your ex-husband since it was an amicable break
up (in other words no passion between the two of you) and you've
probably told him over the years how much happier you are with him
than with your ex-husband. I find it interesting that you haven't
been interested in emailing your ex-husband.

Probably the best thing for the two of you to do is ask yourself why
you want to email men from your past you still have feelings for and
for your husband to ask himself why this bothers him. Then talk about
what each of you has learned about yourselves. There's probably a
compromise that can be reached and you both will grow from this
experience.

I hope this helps and good luck!

Dave

PS If my wife behaved like this I wouldn't like it either. However,
I would balance this behavior with all the wonderful things she does.


caren50@msn.com (Caren) wrote:
Before I married my husband, I had a toxic relationship with a man.It was a relationship that lasted for 8 years, with a lot of splittingup and getting back together. The relationship ended abruptly and Inever made peace with the ending. I have always stayed in touch withhis daughter via email and we have a nice relationship-I'm sort ofmotherly to her. She told me about a year or two ago that he hasParkinson's Disease and I felt a need to contact him. It took a verylong time for me to finally gather up the nerve to contact him becauseI was afraid that he'd ignore it or something.At any rate, I recently made contact. I told him all about my life(marriage, children, career, where I live-I no longer live in the samestate as he) and I asked about his life, his illness, etc. He emailedback and I emailed him back.I also, from time to time, email my ex-boyfriend from college. I sendhim pictures of my kids once in a while and it's a nicerelationship-no pretenses. I'm on great terms with my ex-husband,having had an incredibly amicable divorce about 21 years ago. Myhusband likes him very much and he has stayed at our house (from outof town) when our son graduated from high school and college.Okay, here's my question. My husband thinks that it's inappropriatefor me to be emailing ex boyfriends! I see it as something 100%,totally innocent. I have no motives other than to takl about oldtimes from time to time. I also stay in touch with lots and lots ofgirlfriends and my family. I do web searches on the college and highschool reunion thing, looking for old friends once in a while and justlove to talk to someone from the past.At any rate, I told me husband that I see it as totally normal and itis really bugging me that he thinks that it's wrong. I think that isinsane. I told him that I was doing it, so I had nothing to hide.And I also told him that he could read the stupid emails if he wanted. I have nothing to hide which is why I told him!I'd appreciate some thoughts on this...and I am going to share thisthread with him.

"Joy" <fairly_happy_doesn't_need_any_more_spam@withoutspa myahoo.com> wrote
in message news:bwQSb.3465$tl5.961@bignews1.bellsouth.net... "JWB" <nospam1111@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:fpQSb.296094$0P1.56408@twister.nyc.rr.com... Perhaps. But mail filters work just as well. If she's worried about the other person's reaction... well, that's my whole point. Why would she
even *care* about the ex's reaction? I don't know - this is just throwing out a couple of possible scenarios
for discussion: Maybe because she considers the ex to be a friend - so for her it is a *friends* reaction, not an *ex's* reaction at all, and she does care what her friends think. Maybe it isn't the ex's reaction she is concerned about, but rather her
own reaction. Maybe it is just makes her feel embarrassed in general to have to admit
that she is partnered with a guy who would tell her to give up something that
she feels is integral to her sense of self - maybe to her it makes her feel squelched and demeaned and she doesn't want to admit that to people who
know her in RL. Maybe it is none of these - I don't think Caren said.

Perhaps not. I think her "keeping doors open" comment (or was it not wanting
to close them?) is somewhat telling. I'm not sure if she is capable of
forgetting a part of her life and moving past it. I say that with no malice
or anything - lots of people are like that. But I don't think it's healthy.
It's almost as if people like that don't want to commit to the present
fully. I lived with a girl like this once - she had maybe 4 people that she
*had* to talk to constantly on the phone - almost daily; she e-mailed the
world; and she had a few ex's she stayed 'friends" with. I felt I was
somewhere on her list, but certainly below her mother and aunt, a sister,
one ex, and two friends.

And to succeed with me, I have to be above them all. So, we didn't make it.

But then again, maybe her husband's behavior drives her to be that way. I
could see that too. This is interesting.

"Joy" <fairly_happy_doesn't_need_any_more_spam@withoutspa myahoo.com> writes:
"JWB" <nospam1111@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:fpQSb.296094$0P1.56408@twister.nyc.rr.com... Perhaps. But mail filters work just as well. If she's worried about the other person's reaction... well, that's my whole point. Why would she even *care* about the ex's reaction? I don't know - this is just throwing out a couple of possible scenarios for discussion: Maybe because she considers the ex to be a friend - so for her it is a *friends* reaction, not an *ex's* reaction at all, and she does care what her friends think. Maybe it isn't the ex's reaction she is concerned about, but rather her own reaction. Maybe it is just makes her feel embarrassed in general to have to admit that she is partnered with a guy who would tell her to give up something that she feels is integral to her sense of self - maybe to her it makes her feel squelched and demeaned and she doesn't want to admit that to people who know her in RL.

I'll add to your list.

Maybe she values loyalty. If so, her loyalty to her husband probably
trumps her loyalty to her friends, but still, cutting one's friends
feels disloyal. And one might want a better reason to do it than "my
husband is an *** this week."

caren50@msn.com (Caren) wrote in message news:<3754f0b3.0401301047.3ce093d5@posting.google.com>...
I'd appreciate some thoughts on this...and I am going to share this thread with him.

Since we're not married yet, I haven't replied. However, this morning
I mentioned this thread to my fiance and it started an interesting
discussion between us.

Caren, it sounds like I'm a lot like you when it comes to wanting to
maintain occasional, platonic contact with old flames. The way I look
at it, my old bf's were bf's for a reason - we had a lot in common, I
cared for them, they cared for me. Nearly all my old bf's have
remained on friendly terms with me. They are good people and I'm
interested in hearing what's going on in their lives, and happy for
them when good things happen or they find someone special who
appreciates them as much (if not more) than I did.

I never forget that they are "old" bf's for a reason, too. For good
reason, we ended up parting ways. I am over and done with those
relationships and have moved on, with no wish to repeat the same
issues over again. Therefore, just because I care enough to maintain
contact with old flames, doesn't mean I have any interest at all in
striking up what once was. That part is past, over, done with.

There is only one old flame that I tend to keep a distance from,
because the relationship never really had a chance to get off the
ground and run its course. So yes, that relationship -- if I started
corresponding regularly with him -- is one that my DF would have
legitimate concern about. By my own choice and out of sensitivity to
my DF, I keep away.

I asked my DF if my other friendships made him uncomfortable, and he
said not really, but then he also trusts that I am honest and if I do
hear from one of them or contact them myself, I tell him about it. He
has met some of my old bf's and it's not been a big deal for him.... a
little bit of jealousy, but he respects that these guys once meant
something to me and I still care platonically to keep in contact now
and then.

As for him, he's about similar. He has a couple of old gf's,
relationships that have run their course and I don't worry about him
ever wanting to rekindle. He doesn't contact them, but they do contact
him. And he relays what they said. Just this past weekend, one of them
called here to chat. When we got the message on the answering machine
I teased him about it (I know she'd take him back in a minute), but
didn't stand in his way to call back. In fact, I encouraged him to
call her back. The one thing I know about my sweetie is that if any of
his old flames had troubles (such as a death in the family or
something like that), I'd fully expect him to contact them and offer
his support. He's a loyal guy like that, and I admire him for it.

jen

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0401302217.73798454@posting.google.c om... Okay, I just read all of the responses and it sounds as if most of you think that I should give up my friendships that involved men that I loved. Okay, so when or if I do that, at what point to I give up something else that I find innocent and completely one hundred percent innocent? What are we supposed to give up when we're married. AT what point do we say no. About two months ago, my husband got a raise and a new position. He wanted to buy a truck. A brand new truck. A big truck and commute many miles a day. A gas guzzler pollutin the environment. 500 dollar a month payments. A big raise in insurance. We bickered over this issue for two weeks before he finally decided, hell, I"m not waiting for her approval, I'm buying the truck that I want. I had to deal with it and move on. Is this any different than the email issue? I can tell all of you what I think the issue is for my husband. My husband has the tendency to make bad choices. He does sneaky stuff and always gets caught. Anything from pornography, to matchmaking services, to online chat groups and the list goes on. This has gone on for over 11 years and I have tolerated a lot of crap. Yet, it's always something. I could spend a week writing a thread about his choices. He knows that he has a problem and from time to time, can't control what he does (his words). I have been patient, angry, empathic, understanding and keep trying to trust him. Then he finds a way to sabotage it. What I think is that he does not trust himself and is projecting that onto me and it is really getting me angry. The angry part is that I have no ulterior motives. I love communicating with all kinds of people. This group is a perfect example. I have made friends online and have emailed people privately. That could be seen as something to start a new relationship. Hell, I have enough on my hands, I don't have any desire to start something on the side for god's sake!!!! Ugh, it's almost repulsive to me to think of cheating. So, now that you have more info, and might possible want more info, I'll answer any questions that you might have. I think that my husband is putting onto me, what is really about him and I resent that. I have never done anything, thinking that this might hurt my husband. As I said earlier, since he shared this with me, I have not done anything behind his back (not that I did before!) On the other hand, every time that he has done something not too bright and against what we have agreed upon, not only has he known it was something that would hurt me, but it's something that he has hidden. He sucks at hiding things. I am like the master dog sniffer. I get gut instincts all of the time and can almost guess what's going on. By the way, due to his history, he has said that it's okay for me to check his email if I feel insecure. I have found emails that he has written back and forth to a woman he met in a chat room. Talk about intimate! NONE of my emails are anything like that! Not even close. The difference is that my stuff is not about looking for something new or exciting. My stuff is about caring about people who were once important in my life....men or women.

That really clarifies things a lot. It does sound like he's projecting.
Here's my perspective. Your husband is very likely projecting. He's spent
years running around behind your back doing sneaky things. He's contacting
women through matchmaking services and chatrooms and writing what can't
possibly be innocent emails. Since he's such a dishonest person, he assumes
that you might do the same and wants to tightly control what you do. It's a
pretty standard thing spouses do when they cheat.

How your husband should be feeling is damned grateful that for whatever
reasons, you've stayed with him all this time and excused all his bad
behavior. He's betrayed you enough that he doesn't deserve that loyalty.
I'd say that even if you were sneaking around too, he doesn't have the right
to demand that you conform to rules that he himself won't follow. He should
be trying to make you happy, not trying to tie you up and keep you from
having any friends.

>> I wrote a response last night which doesn't seem to have made it here and it explains my theory on why he is not thrilled with me emailing. Another frustration that I'm feeling right now is that this is not causing a serious problem in our marriage AND he is not steaming and seething about it. If the latest post that wrote last night, that gives some history doesn't show up, I'll write it again today. As Tai pointed out in her post, we do have some history with making choices. However, without going into too much detail, the choices that my husband has made in the past, to his admission, were dumb. Sadly, he continues to make some of those choices sort of on a continuum.and I think this is partly your response to that.JWB

Caren, when you talk about the truck and this and all, I find myself imagining
this couple, standing on opposite sides of the room with their arms folded,
saying, "WHY should I? He/she didn't take my feelings into account HERE." :-)

People's marriages are different. Mostly, I think people have to negotiate
what makes them happy (the balance between "me" and "us").

However, it is clear that the truck thing makes you unhappy. Apparently, the
ex thing makes him unhappy. So, it seems to me that you have to decide whether
these standoffs are bad enough --- in the full course of your marriage --- to
address, or if you will just accept that the "me" part, for both of you, is
going to have a higher priority than the "us" part. If you both want to have
more of your individual freedom to make decisions, **and are willing to be
unhappy with the decisions the other makes as a trade-off**, then that's what
you should do.

If, on the other hand, you would prefer to give more of a priority to the
couple than to the individual, one, or both of you, will need to break the
standoff. Because, at this point, you are using the truck example of why you
aren't willing to do things solely for his comfort level, and I would guess
that (if I asked him) he could give an example of when you did something
without regard for his comfort level in order to justify buying the truck!
But, from where I'm sitting, unless one of you breaks the pattern, you can both
continue to withhold from each other in this way. If you want to change
things, one of you will need to go first.

JMO, and if it doesn't ring true for you, ignore. :-)

Sheila

Caren wrote: "Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> wrote in message I am going to weigh all of this. I usually do my little kick and scream at first but I am a very reasonable person. I would not intentionally hurt someone, but I do sometimes give up easily and lose parts of myself as a result. I tend to sell myself short and in this matter, I want us both to come out of it as if neither of us were sold short. Perhaps I sound like a baby kicking and screaming, but my husband has no reason not to trust me. He has reason not to trust himself and that is what is frustrating the heck out of me.

Well, maybe this is some projection on his part? He knows deep down he has
reason not to trust himself (perhaps he can't acknowledge this on a conscious
level), so he transfers that over to you? And that's why he's so hot under
the collar about it?

Jayne Kulikauskas wrote: "WhansaMi" <whansami@aol.com> wrote in message news:20040130164933.25908.00000800@mb-m23.aol.com... []But, IMO, that isn't the issue. It makes your husband uncomfortable in a waythat, at least I, don't want to make my husband uncomfortable. It makes himfeel vulnerable. It makes him anxious. I don't want to be a source of thatfor my husband; I want to be the safe harbor for him. [] I agree with Sheila. I'm happily married with my 24th anniversary coming up in a few months. Jayne

I agree with Sheila as well.
Cari (happily married for almost 7 years)

--
email:
cari_p at comcast dot net

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
My struggle is, is this really about the email. Or is it about trust? Or is it about his ****.

I think his reaction is very normal for a man. Trust / projection have
little to nothing to do with it. This doesn't mean I'm taking his side in
any other issue, mind you :)

"JWB" <jwbgoawayickyspam3333@excite.com> wrote in message news:<24ASb.293297$0P1.128715@twister.nyc.rr.com>... "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:qczSb.95$bn1.47@nwrdny02.gnilink.net... Give it up. Why would you intentionally do something that bugs your husband? Is it to assert yourself? I'm all for assertive women, but pick your battles. Too much ego involved. Think of the symbolism of what you are doing what does it say to him about you without actually using words?

First of all, I did something that was NOTHING that I thought would
bother him in the first place and I told him about it. Ego? What is
egotistic about 3 emails? Oy, the symbolism is that I put my ex in
the same category as old roomates, elemntary school friends or buddies
from high school. Male or female. I must be totally naiive in this
regard. By the way, he did once tell me that he contacted an old GF
after seeing an article that she had written in a popular magazine
that he glanced at while at a market. It honestly didn't bother me.
And it was a breakthrough for him to be honest and not do it behind my
back. To me, it's an old relationship and not any big deal. I worry
more about him starting up new relationships! I agree with you. I also can't understand the "benefit" people get from doing these kinds of things. I had an old girlfriend that did stuff like this - and even though she never really admitted it, I *knew* that a little piece of her was back there with the ex's that she kept in touch with.

Did stuff like this? You make it sound like I"m a slut :-)))) I mean, what is the point? Is it to assert yourself, or is it what you get out of the relationship? I would guess Caren would say the latter (would you, Caren?) And if the latter, is it to constantly say "remember when we...". Gee, you like living in the past? And if not that, is there some sort of new stimulation one gets from the ex? I mean, if we really peel away all the layers of bull****, it's one of the two. There would be no reason to have the contact otherwise.

I don't live in the past. Maybe when you turn 50, you'll have a
desire to contact old people. Maybe go to a reunion and spark up old
friendships. AGain, I see it as innocent. Oh god, no stimulation
whatsoever. I just want peace in my life. Isn't sometimes a rose
just a rose? I said this to Caren, but I don't include the ex-husband in this. I think it's fine that she gets along with her ex, since they have a child together. JWB


So an ex with a child is okay and anyone else who had penetration is
not ;-) How about ex male non penetration friends? I mean really,
isn't this getting a bit silly?

"JWB" <jwbgoawayickyspam3333@excite.com> wrote in message news:<kKASb.293337$0P1.115061@twister.nyc.rr.com>... "Chrys" <notarealaddress@lycos.com> wrote in message news:bvej8q$s33o3$1@ID-198599.news.uni-berlin.de... "JWB" <jwbgoawayickyspam3333@excite.com> wrote in message news:24ASb.293297$0P1.128715@twister.nyc.rr.com... I agree with you. I also can't understand the "benefit" people get from doing these kinds of things. I had an old girlfriend that did stuff like this - and even though she never really admitted it, I *knew* that a little piece of her was back there with the ex's that she kept in touch with. Have you never dated someone and then stayed friends after the relationship ended? No. Remained cordial, but never "friends".

Well, then we can ask why. Perhaps this can be analyzed and seen as
you see my situation as having two reasons. You see people as
disposable. You don't like looking at the past.

I am being facetious however, can't everything boil down to "just
because"? Asking the benefit seems to me like asking why a person would ever want to have friends in the first place. I had a couple men I'd dated and stayed friends with. My husband never had a problem with it and became friends with them too. If it was a situation of getting in touch with someone for a reason like missing the relationship, then yes I'd see it as wrong. Most people don't seem to like "ex's" around. If it works for you, great.

"Joy" <fairly_happy_doesn't_need_any_more_spam@withoutspa myahoo.com> wrote in message news:<l2QSb.3420$tl5.13@bignews1.bellsouth.net>... "JWB" <nospam1111@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:nGPSb.168502$4F2.19843052@twister.nyc.rr.com. .. "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message Yes Bill, I did sound defensive, didn't I? I think that the problem is, is that I'm frustrated as all hell. I have only emailed the guy three times. As far as by college boyfriend...I'm on his mailing list with his brothers and sister. Whenever he comes across a virus, has some photos of snow or a change of address, he emails me. The last I emailed him was to tell him in an announcement that I sent out to everyone, was how proud of my husband I was for winning his election and being promoted. Can you kinda see what you're saying here? You're trying to justify this by including your husband and the ex's siblings. The "see, he's not just e-mailing me - he's e-mailing his sister, too" Actually, I saw that a little differently. I'm on several people's mailing list for this kind of thing myself, so I'm familiar with the issue. It takes it from the realm of being a personal e-mail, directed toward you, into the realm of being a group-email which is nuch, much less personal. To me it is almost like being on a person's Christmas Card mailing list - these messages are not on the same level as getting a personal letter at all. I thought that Caren included that part to show that they weren't exchanging steamy e-mails or anything - that the messages sent were in fact sent to a larger group.

Joy, that was exactly my point. I was not justifying, I was giving
more detail to show that the depth level was about a 1, not a 10. To me, this is more about *you* not wanting to give up this little part of yourself. I'll ask again - why are these ex's *so* important when you admit you almost don't have time for what's on your plate now? You have all these online people to communicate and share your life with - why must it include ex-boyfriends? Could there be some embarrassment factor? It could feel a little humiliating to some personality types to have to tell somebody "please take me off your e-mail distribution list, because my husband doesn't like it".


That would actually be hysterically funny. Dear XXXXX, xxxxx doesn't
want me to have ex boyfriends as friends anymore. have a good life. Just a thought (even though I'm not part of one of those happily married couples originally asked for)

I appreciate your input. And I love your name. > Joy

caren50@msn.com (Caren) wrote in message news:<3754f0b3.0401302217.73798454@posting.google.com>...
Okay, I just read all of the responses and it sounds as if most of you think that I should give up my friendships that involved men that I loved. Okay, so when or if I do that, at what point to I give up something else that I find innocent and completely one hundred percent innocent? What are we supposed to give up when we're married. AT what point do we say no.

When the trade-off for saying no is not worth it. When you give
something up for the sake of the marriage, hopefully you're doing so
to get something in return... greater happiness and contentment,
greater trust, fuller intimacy with our partner.
About two months ago, my husband got a raise and a new position. He wanted to buy a truck. A brand new truck. A big truck and commute many miles a day. A gas guzzler pollutin the environment. 500 dollar a month payments. A big raise in insurance. We bickered over this issue for two weeks before he finally decided, hell, I"m not waiting for her approval, I'm buying the truck that I want. I had to deal with it and move on. Is this any different than the email issue? I can tell all of you what I think the issue is for my husband. My husband has the tendency to make bad choices. He does sneaky stuff and always gets caught. Anything from pornography, to matchmaking services, to online chat groups and the list goes on.

IMO, what he is doing is far more heinous than what you are doing. He
is contacting people with whom the chance of a relationship is an open
possibility, a tantalizing unknown. Whereas you are contacting people
with whom you've already BTDT... there is no mystery to overwhelm and
tempt you... it's old news, exhausted possibilities.

With these old bf's of yours there's no issue of choice -- the choice
was already made, long ago. You chose to end those relationships.
You've chosen your husband over them. OTOH, with the people your
husband is conversing with online, the choice has yet to be made.
That's the difference, and yes, that would bother me very much. I
would be very concerned if my fiance was putting himself into
situations in which he might one day have to make a choice between me
and someone else. His old gf's?? He already made that choice.

This has gone on for over 11 years and I have tolerated a lot of crap.

The more important question is WHY have you tolerated all this crap? I
can understand forgiving one transgression, but numerous? There's a
saying, "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me."
Yet, it's always something. I could spend a week writing a thread about his choices. He knows that he has a problem and from time to time,

A "problem," eh? Is that what he calls it? can't control what he does (his words).

Can't *control* what he does? Get real. That's his excuse. If it were
me and my fiance came to me with that excuse, I'd say fine if that's
what you really believe - go ahead and "excuse" yourself - but that
doesn't mean *I* have to excuse your actions.
I have been patient, angry, empathic, understanding and keep trying to trust him. Then he finds a way to sabotage it.

Because he knows he can get away with it! On my Keirsey bandwagon for
a minute, I bet your husband is an Artisan. Artisans tend to have
lower impulse control, enjoy risk-taking, and live for the moment.
Later, they say "oops." They really don't mean to harm those they
love, and yet they do. And if you lay down a boundary or make an
ultimatum, THEY WILL TEST IT. They will push the limits and test if
you mean what you say. If you don't uphold your own boundaries, they
will push farther and farther.
What I think is that he does not trust himself and is projecting that onto me and it is really getting me angry.

You're probably right about that.
The angry part is that I have no ulterior motives. I love communicating with all kinds of people. This group is a perfect example. I have made friends online and have emailed people privately. That could be seen as something to start a new relationship. Hell, I have enough on my hands, I don't have any desire to start something on the side for god's sake!!!! Ugh, it's almost repulsive to me to think of cheating.

Suggestion: make a deal with your husband. Tell him what's good for
the goose is good for the gander, and for every time you catch him on
chat or matchmaking services, then you will consider yourself free to
pursue other relationships as you so desire... tit for tat. Doesn't
mean you actually have to - just let him think about the idea and chew
on it. (Okay - everyone go ahead and skewer me for suggesting she play
games with him... obviously, her reasonable and loving approach isn't
working; maybe he'll understand what he's doing to her better if she
frames the situation this way.)
So, now that you have more info, and might possible want more info, I'll answer any questions that you might have. I think that my husband is putting onto me, what is really about him and I resent that. I have never done anything, thinking that this might hurt my husband.

Doesn't matter, you could be a loyal and faithful saint; your husband
is going to view you the way he views himself: as someone highly
susceptible to whim and a pretty face.
As I said earlier, since he shared this with me, I have not done anything behind his back (not that I did before!) On the other hand, every time that he has done something not too bright and against what we have agreed upon, not only has he known it was something that would hurt me, but it's something that he has hidden.

So tell him that you value honesty above all, and what hurts you most
is that you hide these things. Tell him you'd rather he be honest, and
that if an open relationship is what he wants, well then you will
consider yourself free to explore other possibilities as well. If his
current jealousy over your old bf's is any indication, I highly
suspect that will stop him dead in his tracks.
He sucks at hiding things. I am like the master dog sniffer. I get gut instincts all of the time and can almost guess what's going on.

That would drive me crazy. I'm sorry you are going through this.
By the way, due to his history, he has said that it's okay for me to check his email if I feel insecure. I have found emails that he has written back and forth to a woman he met in a chat room. Talk about intimate! NONE of my emails are anything like that! Not even close. The difference is that my stuff is not about looking for something new or exciting. My stuff is about caring about people who were once important in my life....men or women.

I'm on your side on this; I think what you're doing is much more
harmless.
I'm in a people field. I'm into communication and I certainly am not into starting up an affair or any kind of intimacy. I resent that it's being misread and that I'm not being trusted when I think that it's really about him not trusting himself.

I think you've got him pegged. There's no need to defend yourself on
this.

Hmmm......Would you say that this relationship has made you feel less
secure in yourself (so you need to constantly defend yourself), or
more secure (for the first time you feel brave enough to stand up for
yourself)? I think that's a significant question.

jen

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0401311126.43698021@posting.google.c om... "JWB" <jwbgoawayickyspam3333@excite.com> wrote in message
news:<24ASb.293297$0P1.128715@twister.nyc.rr.com>... "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:qczSb.95$bn1.47@nwrdny02.gnilink.net... Give it up. Why would you intentionally do something that bugs your husband? Is it to assert yourself? I'm all for assertive women, but pick your battles. Too much ego involved. Think of the symbolism of what you are doing what does it say to him about you without actually using words? First of all, I did something that was NOTHING that I thought would bother him in the first place and I told him about it. Ego? What is egotistic about 3 emails? Oy, the symbolism is that I put my ex in the same category as old roomates, elemntary school friends or buddies from high school. Male or female. I must be totally naiive in this regard. By the way, he did once tell me that he contacted an old GF after seeing an article that she had written in a popular magazine that he glanced at while at a market. It honestly didn't bother me. And it was a breakthrough for him to be honest and not do it behind my back. To me, it's an old relationship and not any big deal. I worry more about him starting up new relationships!


you know you're replying to Urf in that paragraph, right?

I agree with you. I also can't understand the "benefit" people get from doing these kinds of things. I had an old girlfriend that did stuff like this - and even though she never really admitted it, I *knew* that a
little piece of her was back there with the ex's that she kept in touch with. Did stuff like this? You make it sound like I"m a slut :-))))


You know I don't think that ;)

I mean, what is the point? Is it to assert yourself, or is it what you
get out of the relationship? I would guess Caren would say the latter (would you, Caren?) And if the latter, is it to constantly say "remember when we...". Gee,
you like living in the past? And if not that, is there some sort of new stimulation one gets from the ex? I mean, if we really peel away all the layers of bull****, it's one of the two. There would be no reason to
have the contact otherwise. I don't live in the past. Maybe when you turn 50, you'll have a desire to contact old people. Maybe go to a reunion and spark up old friendships. AGain, I see it as innocent. Oh god, no stimulation whatsoever. I just want peace in my life. Isn't sometimes a rose just a rose?


Perhaps. But I disagree that you get no stimulation. Why else would you do
it? Why contact any old friends if it does nothing for you?

I said this to Caren, but I don't include the ex-husband in this. I
think it's fine that she gets along with her ex, since they have a child
together. JWB So an ex with a child is okay and anyone else who had penetration is not ;-) How about ex male non penetration friends? I mean really, isn't this getting a bit silly?

Your ex you almost *have* to have a cordial relationship with because like
it or not, he will always be in your life due to having a child together.
However, I see no reason to have the old boyfriends in your life. Out of all
the people you could contact or be friends with, does it have to include old
boyfriends.

And penetration *is* a big deal :)

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0401311128.43fd9c2d@posting.google.c om... "JWB" <jwbgoawayickyspam3333@excite.com> wrote in message
news:<kKASb.293337$0P1.115061@twister.nyc.rr.com>... "Chrys" <notarealaddress@lycos.com> wrote in message
Have you never dated someone and then stayed friends after the relationship ended? No. Remained cordial, but never "friends". Well, then we can ask why. Perhaps this can be analyzed and seen as you see my situation as having two reasons. You see people as disposable. You don't like looking at the past.
I am being facetious however, can't everything boil down to "just because"?

No, let's analyze me a bit. I love the "disposable" part :) It's true.

I like looking in the past. I don't like interacting with the past. This
goes for old work friends, school chums, etc etc. We had our time, and we
moved on. Without *new* stimulation, I see no reason to keep contact with
people. What, am I going to constantly say "remember when we..."? No. There
has to be something for us to go forward on. And I am always moving forward.

So, unless there's some current reason to be friends, yes, people are
disposable to me. It's a lot less harsh than it sounds, though.

Look at it this way, in the example of work friends - once you no longer
work in the same place, that common thread that made you friends is no
longer there. It is very difficult to keep the same level of friendship once
that tie is broken. There are some relationships that transcend this, like
family, or maybe one or two friends. But for the most part, long distance
"keeping doors open" friendships, to me, are kind of an unwillingness to
fully let go and move forward.

I honestly don't need a lot of friends in my life. I have my family. I have
a few friends whom I see once a month or so when we have LAN gaming night.
But that's prettymuch it.

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0401311136.294e3931@posting.google.c om... "Joy" <fairly_happy_doesn't_need_any_more_spam@withoutspa myahoo.com> wrote
in message news:<l2QSb.3420 Just a thought (even though I'm not part of one of those happily married couples originally asked for) I appreciate your input. And I love your name. > Joy

Thanks!

"Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message
news:slrnc1o3r1.gn7.tony@home.cigardiary.com... In a word, no. When you are concerned with your "rights" before your husbands feelings, especially in the case of something that would be easy for you to do (if it's not easy to sever relationships with these old boyfriends, it's time to do some serious soul searching as to *why*) you are behaving as a single person in a marriage. And behaving as a married single is the surest (if not fastest) way to damage the marriage. And you are talking to someone who has been through that particular bump in the road, so I know somewhat about what I speak.

Well said.

I've been there too. And divorced prettymuch because we were two single
people in a marriage. In my marriage now, I am much more concerned with "us"
than "me", as is she. A different world, really.

"JWB" <nospam1111@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:<%KPSb.168503$4F2.19843778@twister.nyc.rr.com>... "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message news:3754f0b3.0401310718.6acd6577@posting.google.c om... For one, I feel like there are some unanswered questions and for another, I also like keeping doors open, as in, if he feels that he wants to email me, I genuinely would like him to see me as a person who might help him when he needs support through his illness. Well, for what it's worth, I would *hate* this part of you if I were married to you. My wife is MY wife. She's not Mother Theresa, and I'm not sharing her with sick ex's.

I guess that that goes along with Doug's line of thinking. My husband
knew me when I was in grad school. He knew that I was going into the
helping profession. He knew that I stopped at red lights and gave
homeless people food and that I spent some of my Christmas and
Thanksgiving holidays heading up to the beach with bags of food and
blankets. It's me, take it or leave it. I have a certain place in my
heart that is destined to help people. I'm far from Mother Theresa.

The line about keeping doors open.... I have to ask - do you have commitment issues? Aside from your kids, is your husband *without question* the number one person in your life? I know I'm asking hard questions, especially if he's going to read this thread. Sorry. JWB


I hate to say it, but my kids come first, my younger child needs me
however my older son doesn't. I'd do anything for him just as I'd do
anything for my husband. Within reason. What is reason is what I've
been pondering all day as I painted the bathroom.

On 31 Jan 2004 06:58:36 -0800, Caren
<caren50@msn.com> wrote:

<Snip>
My frustration comes from the issue of trust...or lack thereof. It's one thing to know that you've wronged someone. You apologoize and stop doing it. It's another, if it's misplaced trust.

Has your husband told you that he doesn't trust you?
I wrote a response last night which doesn't seem to have made it here and it explains my theory on why he is not thrilled with me emailing. Another frustration that I'm feeling right now is that this is not causing a serious problem in our marriage AND he is not steaming and seething about it. If the latest post that wrote last night, that gives some history doesn't show up, I'll write it again today. As Tai pointed out in her post, we do have some history with making choices. However, without going into too much detail, the choices that my husband has made in the past, to his admission, were dumb. Sadly, he continues to make some of those choices sort of on a continuum.

So what does that mean, and how does it relate to your situation with old
boyfriends?

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 16:35:49 GMT, Doug Anderson
<ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote: "Joy" <fairly_happy_doesn't_need_any_more_spam@withoutspa myahoo.com> writes: "JWB" <nospam1111@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:fpQSb.296094$0P1.56408@twister.nyc.rr.com... Perhaps. But mail filters work just as well. If she's worried about the other person's reaction... well, that's my whole point. Why would she even *care* about the ex's reaction? I don't know - this is just throwing out a couple of possible scenarios for discussion: Maybe because she considers the ex to be a friend - so for her it is a *friends* reaction, not an *ex's* reaction at all, and she does care what her friends think. Maybe it isn't the ex's reaction she is concerned about, but rather her own reaction. Maybe it is just makes her feel embarrassed in general to have to admit that she is partnered with a guy who would tell her to give up something that she feels is integral to her sense of self - maybe to her it makes her feel squelched and demeaned and she doesn't want to admit that to people who know her in RL. I'll add to your list. Maybe she values loyalty. If so, her loyalty to her husband probably trumps her loyalty to her friends, but still, cutting one's friends feels disloyal. And one might want a better reason to do it than "my husband is an *** this week."

Why do you believe her husband is an ***? I think this is a serious issue
that raises serious questions on what marriage means to both Caren and Mr.
Caren. I think they're going to need to sit down soon and discuss it
calmly and thoroughly.

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 10:49:00 -0500, Joy
<fairly_happy_doesn't_need_any_more_spam@withoutspa myahoo.com> wrote:

<Snip>
Could there be some embarrassment factor? It could feel a little humiliating to some personality types to have to tell somebody "please take me off your e-mail distribution list, because my husband doesn't like it".

Well, it's real easy to place someone into a filter. Every e-mail I get
from joeblow@blow.org I can direct to the garbage can without opening it.
Or I can use the low tech version of deleting it before reading it.

I'm beginning to think part of it is that Caren's husband is upset because
she appears to *need* a relationship (albeit in her estimation an innocent
one) with these men she used to be intimate with.

-Tony

PS: Since Caren's husband isn't posting here, I can't ask him. This is all
kind of one sided.

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> writes:
On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 16:35:49 GMT, Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote: "Joy" <fairly_happy_doesn't_need_any_more_spam@withoutspa myahoo.com> writes: "JWB" <nospam1111@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:fpQSb.296094$0P1.56408@twister.nyc.rr.com... > > Perhaps. But mail filters work just as well. If she's worried about the > other person's reaction... well, that's my whole point. Why would she even > *care* about the ex's reaction? I don't know - this is just throwing out a couple of possible scenarios for discussion: Maybe because she considers the ex to be a friend - so for her it is a *friends* reaction, not an *ex's* reaction at all, and she does care what her friends think. Maybe it isn't the ex's reaction she is concerned about, but rather her own reaction. Maybe it is just makes her feel embarrassed in general to have to admit that she is partnered with a guy who would tell her to give up something that she feels is integral to her sense of self - maybe to her it makes her feel squelched and demeaned and she doesn't want to admit that to people who know her in RL. I'll add to your list. Maybe she values loyalty. If so, her loyalty to her husband probably trumps her loyalty to her friends, but still, cutting one's friends feels disloyal. And one might want a better reason to do it than "my husband is an *** this week." Why do you believe her husband is an ***?

I don't especially. But I think it is asinine to ask her to stop
communicating with exes _without_ explaining to her what it's about.

Caren wrote:

For one, I feel like there are some unanswered questions and for another, I also like keeping doors open, as in, if he feels that he wants to email me, I genuinely would like him to see me as a person who might help him when he needs support through his illness.

Hmmmm..... this man wasn't all that good for you when you were together. If
he's a source of contention with your husband then he's not all that good
for you now, is he? I understand that you want to help but I don't think
it's the wisest choice you could make.


I'm the type that CONSTANTLY tells people, call me if you need help, please, come over and talk to me if you need to release your stress, call in the middle of the night if you need me. I haven't said this to him, but I have a neighbor who I'm not terribly close to, but her husband is very sick and she has two small kids. It's just me, I like to help people.

Yes, you do and your husband will have known that going in to your
relationship. It's just that he's choosy about who you spend your interest
and compassion on. That's not unreasonable, imo. But.... You've exchanged a
few e-mails and you're on a group email list. It doesn't get much more
innocent than that. We know your husband is a smart man so what's really
going on?

Whether or not your husband is being reasonable isn't all that important but his feelings are. In the context of your life just how important is keeping in contact with these people? More important than your husband's feelings on the subject? My thinking is that although he has a right to feel how he does, I'd like him to look at why he is feeling this way.


That's appropriate. Perhaps you can arrive at a compromise once you both
know exactly what is going on in his mind.

Also, examine what you have asked of your husband in the past. Is it possible that you have asked and had him stop doing something that he thought was fairly harmless, simply because it distressed you? I have the feeling there is at least one issue that you felt was harmful to your relationship that he thought wasn't at all or only a very little. I touched lightly on that issue in a post last night and it hasn't showed up yet. I will repost it if it doesn't show up soon. He finally came to realize that his "harmless" stuff, really wasn't harmless and he went for help. I'll go into that another time (maybe -)

It showed up in time for me to realise there's a lot more to this situation!
Broken trust, broken promises, hypocrisy and probably a fair bit of
projection.
Just your tuppence, eh? You're so cute :-)

Aaaaargh.... if you call me "cute" once more I'm going to have to kill you!
:))
I am going to weigh all of this. I usually do my little kick and scream at first but I am a very reasonable person. I would not intentionally hurt someone, but I do sometimes give up easily and lose parts of myself as a result. I tend to sell myself short and in this matter, I want us both to come out of it as if neither of us were sold short. Perhaps I sound like a baby kicking and screaming, but my husband has no reason not to trust me. He has reason not to trust himself and that is what is frustrating the heck out of me. Plus I didn't work out all week, have pms and my daughter was home sick for 3 days. That adds to the mix of frustration.

My best guess is that his behaviour in the past (and present? <wince>) has
led you to put a bit of distance between you two. Partly as a shield to
protect yourself but also just because long term suspicion will have the
effect of removing the unconscious connection in-tune couples have between
them. Rather than looking to his part in why you aren't totally available to
him he's trying to find behaviour of yours that could be causing that and
looking for it in something that mirrors his behaviour.

It's not there but this is about feelings not rational thought, at this
point.

So I think the contact with ex-boyfriends issue is not really the problem
here. It's that for a variety of reasons you'reboth holding on to your
individuality and not working together.

I can't say I blame you, though, Caren, given the circumstances.

Tai

On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 20:55:31 GMT, JWB
<nospam1111@nowhere.com> wrote: "Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:slrnc1o3r1.gn7.tony@home.cigardiary.com... In a word, no. When you are concerned with your "rights" before your husbands feelings, especially in the case of something that would be easy for you to do (if it's not easy to sever relationships with these old boyfriends, it's time to do some serious soul searching as to *why*) you are behaving as a single person in a marriage. And behaving as a married single is the surest (if not fastest) way to damage the marriage. And you are talking to someone who has been through that particular bump in the road, so I know somewhat about what I speak. Well said. I've been there too. And divorced prettymuch because we were two single people in a marriage. In my marriage now, I am much more concerned with "us" than "me", as is she. A different world, really.

To continue this "married single" thing... We were sitting at the dinner
table one night, and my wife said to me: "I think we're having problems,
I'd like to go to Marriage Encounter". I had no clue she was unhappy, so
I said "sure, I'll go". It was the best thing we ever did. It's not for
everyone, but it worked for us. We are a stronger team now than we ever
were before.

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

Caren wrote: Before I married my husband, I had a toxic relationship with a man. It was a relationship that lasted for 8 years, with a lot of splitting up and getting back together. The relationship ended abruptly and I never made peace with the ending. I have always stayed in touch with his daughter via email and we have a nice relationship-I'm sort of motherly to her. She told me about a year or two ago that he has Parkinson's Disease and I felt a need to contact him. It took a very long time for me to finally gather up the nerve to contact him because I was afraid that he'd ignore it or something. At any rate, I recently made contact. I told him all about my life (marriage, children, career, where I live-I no longer live in the same state as he) and I asked about his life, his illness, etc. He emailed back and I emailed him back. I also, from time to time, email my ex-boyfriend from college. I send him pictures of my kids once in a while and it's a nice relationship-no pretenses. I'm on great terms with my ex-husband, having had an incredibly amicable divorce about 21 years ago. My husband likes him very much and he has stayed at our house (from out of town) when our son graduated from high school and college. Okay, here's my question. My husband thinks that it's inappropriate for me to be emailing ex boyfriends! I see it as something 100%, totally innocent. I have no motives other than to takl about old times from time to time. I also stay in touch with lots and lots of girlfriends and my family. I do web searches on the college and high school reunion thing, looking for old friends once in a while and just love to talk to someone from the past. At any rate, I told me husband that I see it as totally normal and it is really bugging me that he thinks that it's wrong. I think that is insane. I told him that I was doing it, so I had nothing to hide. And I also told him that he could read the stupid emails if he wanted. I have nothing to hide which is why I told him! I'd appreciate some thoughts on this...and I am going to share this thread with him.

Well, my husband would totally side with your husband. He would find it
120% inappropriate. Although, he's mellowed with age. At the time it
REALLY freaked him out I decided it wasn't worth it. I'm sure some
would stomp and point fingers and say I let him control me....but in all
reality, there was really no good reason to maintain an open line of
communication with past boyfriends if it was going to upset him. With
him it was trust issues...and now that those issues are resolved he
might not pitch such a fit. He's probably more capable of realistically
looking at WHY I would want to maintain contact now....even better than
I could. If it was a long-time childhood friend/family
friend/ex-boyfriend he probably wouldn't be upset. If there is a child
involved that I was involved in the child's life he probably wouldn't be
upset as long as the communication was for the child's benefit. If it
was a previous toxic relationship he would be extremely upset. And so
on....

I do have to admit though since our marriage crossed over from
dysfunctional to functional I've never had a desire to contact anyone
and had to muster up interest if one of my sisters just HAD to tell me
what an ex did. :) So, I guess the situation hasn't come up here since
we're able to even rationally discuss such a thing.

I guess, for me, I'd have to look at why I would want to maintain
communication with someone that is going to upset my husband. And I'm
about the farthest from a "submissive" wife as you would find. :)

amy

Caren wrote: Ellie <ellie_first@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<401B1ACD.1AE0F927@hotmail.com>... Chrys wrote: "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:qczSb.95$bn1.47@nwrdny02.gnilink.net... > Give it up. > > Why would you intentionally do something that bugs your husband? > Is it to assert yourself? I'm all for assertive women, but pick your > battles. Too much ego involved. Think of the symbolism of what > you are doing what does it say to him about you without > actually using words? > > Worst case is to do it on the sly. Although I can understand a man being insecure in a case like this whether he has reason to be or not, surely you don't mean that women should never do anything that bugs their husbands? If the spouse (husband or wife) isn't really unreasonable in their demands why not? What is wrong with trying not to bug one's spouse if it only means giving up on little things? It's not like she deliberately decided to do something for no reason but to make him mad. I would ask "is she she deliberately doing something to make her husband happy?" The standard of behavior between a couple shouldn't be merely avoiding deliberate acts of offense, but proactively doing things to enhance happiness -- at least that is what I expect in my marriage. Okay, I just read all of the responses and it sounds as if most of you think that I should give up my friendships that involved men that I loved. Okay, so when or if I do that, at what point to I give up something else that I find innocent and completely one hundred percent innocent? What are we supposed to give up when we're married. AT what point do we say no. About two months ago, my husband got a raise and a new position. He wanted to buy a truck. A brand new truck. A big truck and commute many miles a day. A gas guzzler pollutin the environment. 500 dollar a month payments. A big raise in insurance. We bickered over this issue for two weeks before he finally decided, hell, I"m not waiting for her approval, I'm buying the truck that I want. I had to deal with it and move on. Is this any different than the email issue? I can tell all of you what I think the issue is for my husband. My husband has the tendency to make bad choices. He does sneaky stuff and always gets caught. Anything from pornography, to matchmaking services, to online chat groups and the list goes on. This has gone on for over 11 years and I have tolerated a lot of crap. Yet, it's always something. I could spend a week writing a thread about his choices. He knows that he has a problem and from time to time, can't control what he does (his words). I have been patient, angry, empathic, understanding and keep trying to trust him. Then he finds a way to sabotage it. What I think is that he does not trust himself and is projecting that onto me and it is really getting me angry. The angry part is that I have no ulterior motives. I love communicating with all kinds of people. This group is a perfect example. I have made friends online and have emailed people privately. That could be seen as something to start a new relationship. Hell, I have enough on my hands, I don't have any desire to start something on the side for god's sake!!!! Ugh, it's almost repulsive to me to think of cheating. So, now that you have more info, and might possible want more info, I'll answer any questions that you might have. I think that my husband is putting onto me, what is really about him and I resent that. I have never done anything, thinking that this might hurt my husband. As I said earlier, since he shared this with me, I have not done anything behind his back (not that I did before!) On the other hand, every time that he has done something not too bright and against what we have agreed upon, not only has he known it was something that would hurt me, but it's something that he has hidden. He sucks at hiding things. I am like the master dog sniffer. I get gut instincts all of the time and can almost guess what's going on. By the way, due to his history, he has said that it's okay for me to check his email if I feel insecure. I have found emails that he has written back and forth to a woman he met in a chat room. Talk about intimate! NONE of my emails are anything like that! Not even close. The difference is that my stuff is not about looking for something new or exciting. My stuff is about caring about people who were once important in my life....men or women. I'm in a people field. I'm into communication and I certainly am not into starting up an affair or any kind of intimacy. I resent that it's being misread and that I'm not being trusted when I think that it's really about him not trusting himself. Okay, enough already :-)

Whew. Feel better? :) I'm not being sarcastic, either.

I wasn't implying in the post I just sent <before reading this one> that
you were doing anything wrong. Or looking for an affair. Just the
question, "Is the pay-off of maintaining these relationships big enough
to cover the cost in the marriage if your husband is insecure about it."

And I have a little question that I'm going to try to ask without making
it make me sound like a total *****. :)

Did you offer THIS post because you weren't getting the answers you
wanted to share with your husband? Sorry, had to ask. But I went
through that phase of NEEDING VALIDATION that he was nuts and wrong back
then. And that I wasn't doing anything wrong <except stay with him at
that time> even though he ACCUSED me of doing things wrong. In fact
our one attempt at marital counselling was with someone HE had got to
tell our story to first because HE was in trouble from one of his stupid
stunts back then. I knew at that point she would never get a clear
picture. :) Not that I was faultless and didn't do things wrong.....but
I NEVER did any of the things he accused me of. Does that make sense?
I knew she would already have her perception of me from HIS false
perception and I would spend the entire time defending myself. :)

Anyway, from the "big picture" you just described....I learned to NOT
say anthing, nag, ***** when he did those BIG stupid things. He'd
already heard everything I had to say from the last 10 times I screamed
at him. For him it was gambling that he hid as long as he could <credit
cards>. Then he moved onto "our money" and get us in binds only because
he was out on the road thinking that since the ATM was giving him money
I must not have spent it yet. Although $1000 of checks hadn't cleared
yet. If i don't throw my normal tantrum HE HAD to deal with it. If I
argue with him he can turn it around, justify it once he's mad, and do
it again next week. But once he had to deal with it it resolved
itself. Anyway, that's always a tactic to try somewhere down the road.

Just remember resentments can alter our perceptions of our motives.

amy

Great post.

amy

Tony Miller wrote: On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 20:56:01 GMT, Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote:Think of the symbolism of what you are doing what doesit say to him about you without actually using words? But, what is the symbolism of his actions/attitude? I'm not so fond of the impression I'm getting here that it's Caren that is obligated to do something differently just because her husband doesn't share her beliefs. Exactly. And her husband will sometimes be obligated to do something differently just because she doesn't share his beliefs. It's called "compromise". Reminds me of a situation a few years ago, where my wife and a few of her friends were talking about my wife possibly getting a radical new hairdo. I asked my wife: "You would do something like that without talking to me first?". One of her friends piped up (and you reminded me of her just now) "It's her body, she can do what she wants with it!" I looked at my wife who wasn't saying anything and I said: "Ok, then I'm going to the mall to get my ear pierced". My wife said: "On no you're not!" then realized the implication of what I had just said WRT her desire to have a radical new hairdo. The point is, my body is not my own, and her body is not her own. As married people we have become "part owners" in each other's body. We won't do anything radical to something that belongs to our spouse any more than we sould deface any other possession of theirs. You may think this attitude is outmoded, or completely wrong, but sometimes you have to put your spouse's happiness before your desires. That's part of the "we" in a marriage. And the question was: "I have a question for happily married couples". My wife and I fit the bill going on 19 years. -Tony -- "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time to fertilize your lawn!" Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

I guess I would weigh the pros and cons as each relate to the relationship.

If this is something over which your husband has strong feelings, how much
is it worth to you to maintain these outside relationships? I think keeping
tabs on folks is one thing...keeping in contact with them, when for whatever
reason, it makes your husband uncomfortable is another. What's best for
your relationship? And, does doing what's best for your relationship
diminish you as a person...or what you believe in? Does doing what's best
for the relationship make you any less "you"...and does it mean that you're
sacrificing something that is more important than the relationship?
~Kimberlee

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 01:39:31 GMT, Doug Anderson
<ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote: Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> writes: On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 16:35:49 GMT, Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote: "Joy" <fairly_happy_doesn't_need_any_more_spam@withoutspa myahoo.com> writes:> "JWB" <nospam1111@nowhere.com> wrote in message> news:fpQSb.296094$0P1.56408@twister.nyc.rr.com...> >> > Perhaps. But mail filters work just as well. If she's worried about the> > other person's reaction... well, that's my whole point. Why would she even> > *care* about the ex's reaction?>> I don't know - this is just throwing out a couple of possible scenarios for> discussion:>> Maybe because she considers the ex to be a friend - so for her it is a> *friends* reaction, not an *ex's* reaction at all, and she does care what> her friends think.>> Maybe it isn't the ex's reaction she is concerned about, but rather her own> reaction.>> Maybe it is just makes her feel embarrassed in general to have to admit that> she is partnered with a guy who would tell her to give up something that she> feels is integral to her sense of self - maybe to her it makes her feel> squelched and demeaned and she doesn't want to admit that to people who know> her in RL. I'll add to your list. Maybe she values loyalty. If so, her loyalty to her husband probably trumps her loyalty to her friends, but still, cutting one's friends feels disloyal. And one might want a better reason to do it than "my husband is an *** this week." Why do you believe her husband is an ***? I don't especially. But I think it is asinine to ask her to stop communicating with exes _without_ explaining to her what it's about.

Most guys aren't as in touch with their feminine side as you, Doug. Maybe
he doesn't know exactly why it makes him feels bad, or if he does, how to
articulate it. And if he does know how to articulate it maybe he's afraid
that Caren will think it's a stupid reason.

Real intimacy requires real communication and the knowledge that your
loved one won't hurt you with your own words.

This is a trust issue that whould be worked through in all marriages.

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0401311132.2f69e8d1@posting.google.c om... Brian <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> wrote in message

What's right for some of us might not be what's right for your marriage. That's why I was asking the original question. My question was, in a normal, healthy relationship, is it considered wrong to email old boyfriends? I was speaking more to what others think in their marriages. Would they be pissed, hurt or not care.

My husband wouldn't mind if I emailed old boyfriends and I wouldn't mind if
he emailed old girlfriends.

Of course we are in a normal healthy relationship. :))))))

Of course it really makes no difference what other couples do. This is
between you and your husband. What you have to do is come to an agreement.
Either one of you back down or you come up with a whole new way of solving
this. Sometimes when couples can't agree on things (for example your truck
situation) it is hard to *really* move on from them when the next
disagreement comes up. What I'm saying is this disagreement that you have
now actually might have a lot to do with the last disagreement. Do you see
what I mean?

Amy

Geeze JWB. Its so obvious that you empathise with Mr Caron on this emailing
the ex issue but Caron is the one asking for support here. Why don't you
consider (and try to empathise with) her thoughts on why he is feeling this
way?? You seem to have completely skipped the bit about the truck. Whats
with that?

Amy

"JWB" <nospam1111@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:mPQSb.296098$0P1.92610@twister.nyc.rr.com... "Joy" <fairly_happy_doesn't_need_any_more_spam@withoutspa myahoo.com> wrote in message news:bwQSb.3465$tl5.961@bignews1.bellsouth.net... "JWB" <nospam1111@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:fpQSb.296094$0P1.56408@twister.nyc.rr.com... Perhaps. But mail filters work just as well. If she's worried about
the other person's reaction... well, that's my whole point. Why would she even *care* about the ex's reaction? I don't know - this is just throwing out a couple of possible scenarios for discussion: Maybe because she considers the ex to be a friend - so for her it is a *friends* reaction, not an *ex's* reaction at all, and she does care
what her friends think. Maybe it isn't the ex's reaction she is concerned about, but rather her own reaction. Maybe it is just makes her feel embarrassed in general to have to admit that she is partnered with a guy who would tell her to give up something that she feels is integral to her sense of self - maybe to her it makes her feel squelched and demeaned and she doesn't want to admit that to people who know her in RL. Maybe it is none of these - I don't think Caren said. Perhaps not. I think her "keeping doors open" comment (or was it not
wanting to close them?) is somewhat telling. I'm not sure if she is capable of forgetting a part of her life and moving past it. I say that with no
malice or anything - lots of people are like that. But I don't think it's
healthy. It's almost as if people like that don't want to commit to the present fully. I lived with a girl like this once - she had maybe 4 people that
she *had* to talk to constantly on the phone - almost daily; she e-mailed the world; and she had a few ex's she stayed 'friends" with. I felt I was somewhere on her list, but certainly below her mother and aunt, a sister, one ex, and two friends. And to succeed with me, I have to be above them all. So, we didn't make
it. But then again, maybe her husband's behavior drives her to be that way. I could see that too. This is interesting.

"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in
For one, I feel like there are some unanswered questions and for another, I also like keeping doors open, as in, if he feels that he wants to email me, I genuinely would like him to see me as a person who might help him when he needs support through his illness.

JWB wrote:
Well, for what it's worth, I would *hate* this part of you if I were
married to you. My wife is MY wife. She's not Mother Theresa, and I'm not
sharing her with sick ex's.

Thats an interesting comment. My husband is MY husband but I have no problem
sharing him with his kids, his parents, his friends. Personally I think your
attitude is a little selfish but that's OK. We are just different.

Amy

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 11:03:44 GMT, Amy Lou
<amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote: Geeze JWB. Its so obvious that you empathise with Mr Caron on this emailing the ex issue but Caron is the one asking for support here. Why don't you consider (and try to empathise with) her thoughts on why he is feeling this way?? You seem to have completely skipped the bit about the truck. Whats with that?

Amy, the question, I thought, was Caren asking the question on how we
would handle the situation. And "support" takes many forms. Sometimes
support requires you tell your friend she's behaving in a way that's
damaging. It does you no good to commisurate with her that her husband is
behaving badly, because she has no control over how he behaves.

-Tony
Amy "JWB" <nospam1111@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:mPQSb.296098$0P1.92610@twister.nyc.rr.com... "Joy" <fairly_happy_doesn't_need_any_more_spam@withoutspa myahoo.com> wrote in message news:bwQSb.3465$tl5.961@bignews1.bellsouth.net... "JWB" <nospam1111@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:fpQSb.296094$0P1.56408@twister.nyc.rr.com... > > Perhaps. But mail filters work just as well. If she's worried about the > other person's reaction... well, that's my whole point. Why would she even > *care* about the ex's reaction? I don't know - this is just throwing out a couple of possible scenarios for discussion: Maybe because she considers the ex to be a friend - so for her it is a *friends* reaction, not an *ex's* reaction at all, and she does care what her friends think. Maybe it isn't the ex's reaction she is concerned about, but rather her own reaction. Maybe it is just makes her feel embarrassed in general to have to admit that she is partnered with a guy who would tell her to give up something that she feels is integral to her sense of self - maybe to her it makes her feel squelched and demeaned and she doesn't want to admit that to people who know her in RL. Maybe it is none of these - I don't think Caren said. Perhaps not. I think her "keeping doors open" comment (or was it not wanting to close them?) is somewhat telling. I'm not sure if she is capable of forgetting a part of her life and moving past it. I say that with no malice or anything - lots of people are like that. But I don't think it's healthy. It's almost as if people like that don't want to commit to the present fully. I lived with a girl like this once - she had maybe 4 people that she *had* to talk to constantly on the phone - almost daily; she e-mailed the world; and she had a few ex's she stayed 'friends" with. I felt I was somewhere on her list, but certainly below her mother and aunt, a sister, one ex, and two friends. And to succeed with me, I have to be above them all. So, we didn't make it. But then again, maybe her husband's behavior drives her to be that way. I could see that too. This is interesting.


--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

"Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:kC5Tb.38596$Wa.34688@news-server.bigpond.net.au... "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in > For one, I feel like there are some unanswered questions and for > another, I also like keeping doors open, as in, if he feels that he > wants to email me, I genuinely would like him to see me as a person > who might help him when he needs support through his illness. JWB wrote: Well, for what it's worth, I would *hate* this part of you if I were married to you. My wife is MY wife. She's not Mother Theresa, and I'm not sharing her with sick ex's. Thats an interesting comment. My husband is MY husband but I have no
problem sharing him with his kids, his parents, his friends. Personally I think
your attitude is a little selfish but that's OK. We are just different.

well, would you share him with sick ex's?

JWB wrote: "Joy" <fairly_happy_doesn't_need_any_more_spam@withoutspa myahoo.com> wrote in message news:l2QSb.3420$tl5.13@bignews1.bellsouth.net... "JWB" <nospam1111@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:nGPSb.168502$4F2.19843052@twister.nyc.rr.com. .. "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message > Yes Bill, I did sound defensive, didn't I? I think that the problem > is, is that I'm frustrated as all hell. I have only emailed the guy > three times. As far as by college boyfriend...I'm on his mailing list > with his brothers and sister. Whenever he comes across a virus, has > some photos of snow or a change of address, he emails me. The last I > emailed him was to tell him in an announcement that I sent out to > everyone, was how proud of my husband I was for winning his election > and being promoted. Can you kinda see what you're saying here? You're trying to justify this by including your husband and the ex's siblings. The "see, he's not just e-mailing me - he's e-mailing his sister, too" Actually, I saw that a little differently. I'm on several people's mailing list for this kind of thing myself, so I'm familiar with the issue. It takes it from the realm of being a personal e-mail, directed toward you, into the realm of being a group-email which is nuch, much less personal. To me it is almost like being on a person's Christmas Card mailing list - these messages are not on the same level as getting a personal letter at all. I thought that Caren included that part to show that they weren't exchanging steamy e-mails or anything - that the messages sent were in fact sent to a larger group. I took it for granted that she wasn't exchanging steamy e-mails. I think steamy e-mails / trust have little to nothing to do with this. To me, this is more about *you* not wanting to give up this little part of yourself. I'll ask again - why are these ex's *so* important when you admit you almost don't have time for what's on your plate now? You have all these online people to communicate and share your life with - why must it include ex-boyfriends? Could there be some embarrassment factor? It could feel a little humiliating to some personality types to have to tell somebody "please take me off your e-mail distribution list, because my husband doesn't like it". Just a thought (even though I'm not part of one of those happily married couples originally asked for) Perhaps. But mail filters work just as well. If she's worried about the other person's reaction... well, that's my whole point. Why would she even *care* about the ex's reaction?

I agree. I think if it was a "mailing list" type issue she wouldn't
have told him in the first place but rather just deleted it like
spam......

amy

Tony Miller wrote: On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 11:03:44 GMT, Amy Lou <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote: Geeze JWB. Its so obvious that you empathise with Mr Caron on this emailing the ex issue but Caron is the one asking for support here. Why don't you consider (and try to empathise with) her thoughts on why he is feeling this way?? You seem to have completely skipped the bit about the truck. Whats with that? Amy, the question, I thought, was Caren asking the question on how we would handle the situation. And "support" takes many forms. Sometimes support requires you tell your friend she's behaving in a way that's damaging. It does you no good to commisurate with her that her husband is behaving badly, because she has no control over how he behaves.

But she does have control over how she responds. Maybe his behavior should
cut her some slack, too. Although I don't think it's such a clear cut issue
here, for sure. It's close to the edge, I think.
Amy "JWB" <nospam1111@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:mPQSb.296098$0P1.92610@twister.nyc.rr.com... "Joy" <fairly_happy_doesn't_need_any_more_spam@withoutspa myahoo.com> wrote in message news:bwQSb.3465$tl5.961@bignews1.bellsouth.net...>> "JWB" <nospam1111@nowhere.com> wrote in message> news:fpQSb.296094$0P1.56408@twister.nyc.rr.com...>>>> Perhaps. But mail filters work just as well. If she's worried about>> the other person's reaction... well, that's my whole point. Why>> would she even *care* about the ex's reaction?>> I don't know - this is just throwing out a couple of possible> scenarios for discussion:>> Maybe because she considers the ex to be a friend - so for her it is a> *friends* reaction, not an *ex's* reaction at all, and she does care> what her friends think.>> Maybe it isn't the ex's reaction she is concerned about, but rather> her own reaction.>> Maybe it is just makes her feel embarrassed in general to have to> admit that she is partnered with a guy who would tell her to give up> something that she feels is integral to her sense of self - maybe to> her it makes her feel squelched and demeaned and she doesn't want to> admit that to people who know her in RL.>> Maybe it is none of these - I don't think Caren said. Perhaps not. I think her "keeping doors open" comment (or was it not wanting to close them?) is somewhat telling. I'm not sure if she is capable of forgetting a part of her life and moving past it. I say that with no malice or anything - lots of people are like that. But I don't think it's healthy. It's almost as if people like that don't want to commit to the present fully. I lived with a girl like this once - she had maybe 4 people that she *had* to talk to constantly on the phone - almost daily; she e-mailed the world; and she had a few ex's she stayed 'friends" with. I felt I was somewhere on her list, but certainly below her mother and aunt, a sister, one ex, and two friends. And to succeed with me, I have to be above them all. So, we didn't make it. But then again, maybe her husband's behavior drives her to be that way. I could see that too. This is interesting. -- "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time to fertilize your lawn!" Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

I think that's true too. I mean, Mr, Caron hasn't being too angelic here (in
view of what he has done in the past), and Caren is just asking for some
support.

Amy Lou wrote: Geeze JWB. Its so obvious that you empathise with Mr Caron on this emailing the ex issue but Caron is the one asking for support here. Why don't you consider (and try to empathise with) her thoughts on why he is feeling this way?? You seem to have completely skipped the bit about the truck. Whats with that? Amy "JWB" <nospam1111@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:mPQSb.296098$0P1.92610@twister.nyc.rr.com... "Joy" <fairly_happy_doesn't_need_any_more_spam@withoutspa myahoo.com> wrote in message news:bwQSb.3465$tl5.961@bignews1.bellsouth.net... "JWB" <nospam1111@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:fpQSb.296094$0P1.56408@twister.nyc.rr.com...>> Perhaps. But mail filters work just as well. If she's worried about> the other person's reaction... well, that's my whole point. Why would> she even *care* about the ex's reaction? I don't know - this is just throwing out a couple of possible scenarios for discussion: Maybe because she considers the ex to be a friend - so for her it is a *friends* reaction, not an *ex's* reaction at all, and she does care what her friends think. Maybe it isn't the ex's reaction she is concerned about, but rather her own reaction. Maybe it is just makes her feel embarrassed in general to have to admit that she is partnered with a guy who would tell her to give up something that she feels is integral to her sense of self - maybe to her it makes her feel squelched and demeaned and she doesn't want to admit that to people who know her in RL. Maybe it is none of these - I don't think Caren said. Perhaps not. I think her "keeping doors open" comment (or was it not wanting to close them?) is somewhat telling. I'm not sure if she is capable of forgetting a part of her life and moving past it. I say that with no malice or anything - lots of people are like that. But I don't think it's healthy. It's almost as if people like that don't want to commit to the present fully. I lived with a girl like this once - she had maybe 4 people that she *had* to talk to constantly on the phone - almost daily; she e-mailed the world; and she had a few ex's she stayed 'friends" with. I felt I was somewhere on her list, but certainly below her mother and aunt, a sister, one ex, and two friends. And to succeed with me, I have to be above them all. So, we didn't make it. But then again, maybe her husband's behavior drives her to be that way. I could see that too. This is interesting.

"JWB" <nospam1111@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:V%8Tb.116661$cM1.20492093@twister.nyc.rr.com. .. "Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:kC5Tb.38596$Wa.34688@news-server.bigpond.net.au... "Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in > > For one, I feel like there are some unanswered questions and for > > another, I also like keeping doors open, as in, if he feels that
he > > wants to email me, I genuinely would like him to see me as a
person > > who might help him when he needs support through his illness. JWB wrote: > > Well, for what it's worth, I would *hate* this part of you if I were married > to you. My wife is MY wife. She's not Mother Theresa, and I'm not sharing > her with sick ex's. Thats an interesting comment. My husband is MY husband but I have no problem sharing him with his kids, his parents, his friends. Personally I think your attitude is a little selfish but that's OK. We are just different. well, would you share him with sick ex's?

I thought I made it clear the answer is yes. I'm a good sharer. :)

Amy

"Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote

It does you no good to commisurate with her that her husband is behaving badly, because she has no control over how he behaves.

That is only partly true. If Caren continues to be the good guy and give her
hubby everything that he needs where is the incentive for him to give her
her needs? If he is the kind of guy who does stuff that upsets Caren on a
regular basis and Caren does nothing about it then of course he is going to
continue to do those things.

I think Caren can use this opportunity to really drive her point home about
her hubby's behaviour. Giving in and dropping the exs would only be enabling
the behaviour to continue, IMO.

Amy

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 23:30:14 GMT, Amy Lou
<amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote: "Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote It does you no good to commisurate with her that her husband is behaving badly, because she has no control over how he behaves. That is only partly true. If Caren continues to be the good guy and give her hubby everything that he needs where is the incentive for him to give her her needs? If he is the kind of guy who does stuff that upsets Caren on a regular basis and Caren does nothing about it then of course he is going to continue to do those things.

If Mr. Caren were here, I'd tell him to change the way he behaves too.
I think Caren can use this opportunity to really drive her point home about her hubby's behaviour. Giving in and dropping the exs would only be enabling the behaviour to continue, IMO.

I don't think one has anything to do with the other, unless she's using
these old boyfriends as some sort of "punishment", which I think is
reprehensible.

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 19:44:46 GMT, Bill in Co.
<LostInTime@earthlink.net> wrote: I think that's true too. I mean, Mr, Caron hasn't being too angelic here (in view of what he has done in the past), and Caren is just asking for some support.

This thread started out about "us", as in "what do you happily married
people think about this innocent old boyfriend thing". After the
overwhelming opinion went against, Caren trotted out previous bad behavior
on the part of her husband. This would completely have changed my advice.
It's very frustrating to be "played" like that.

-Tony
Amy Lou wrote: Geeze JWB. Its so obvious that you empathise with Mr Caron on this emailing the ex issue but Caron is the one asking for support here. Why don't you consider (and try to empathise with) her thoughts on why he is feeling this way?? You seem to have completely skipped the bit about the truck. Whats with that? Amy "JWB" <nospam1111@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:mPQSb.296098$0P1.92610@twister.nyc.rr.com... "Joy" <fairly_happy_doesn't_need_any_more_spam@withoutspa myahoo.com> wrote in message news:bwQSb.3465$tl5.961@bignews1.bellsouth.net...>> "JWB" <nospam1111@nowhere.com> wrote in message> news:fpQSb.296094$0P1.56408@twister.nyc.rr.com...>>>> Perhaps. But mail filters work just as well. If she's worried about>> the other person's reaction... well, that's my whole point. Why would>> she even *care* about the ex's reaction?>> I don't know - this is just throwing out a couple of possible> scenarios for discussion:>> Maybe because she considers the ex to be a friend - so for her it is a> *friends* reaction, not an *ex's* reaction at all, and she does care> what her friends think.>> Maybe it isn't the ex's reaction she is concerned about, but rather> her own reaction.>> Maybe it is just makes her feel embarrassed in general to have to> admit that she is partnered with a guy who would tell her to give up> something that she feels is integral to her sense of self - maybe to> her it makes her feel squelched and demeaned and she doesn't want to> admit that to people who know her in RL.>> Maybe it is none of these - I don't think Caren said. Perhaps not. I think her "keeping doors open" comment (or was it not wanting to close them?) is somewhat telling. I'm not sure if she is capable of forgetting a part of her life and moving past it. I say that with no malice or anything - lots of people are like that. But I don't think it's healthy. It's almost as if people like that don't want to commit to the present fully. I lived with a girl like this once - she had maybe 4 people that she *had* to talk to constantly on the phone - almost daily; she e-mailed the world; and she had a few ex's she stayed 'friends" with. I felt I was somewhere on her list, but certainly below her mother and aunt, a sister, one ex, and two friends. And to succeed with me, I have to be above them all. So, we didn't make it. But then again, maybe her husband's behavior drives her to be that way. I could see that too. This is interesting.


--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

Tony Miller wrote: On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 19:44:46 GMT, Bill in Co. <LostInTime@earthlink.net> wrote: I think that's true too. I mean, Mr, Caron hasn't being too angelic here (in view of what he has done in the past), and Caren is just asking for some support. This thread started out about "us", as in "what do you happily married people think about this innocent old boyfriend thing". After the overwhelming opinion went against, Caren trotted out previous bad behavior on the part of her husband. This would completely have changed my advice. It's very frustrating to be "played" like that.

Well ok, but I honestly don't think Caren did that on purpose, you know. She
just didn't think about the fact we didn't know some of the rest of the story,
I think.
Amy Lou wrote: Geeze JWB. Its so obvious that you empathise with Mr Caron on this emailing the ex issue but Caron is the one asking for support here. Why don't you consider (and try to empathise with) her thoughts on why he is feeling this way?? You seem to have completely skipped the bit about the truck. Whats with that? Amy "JWB" <nospam1111@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:mPQSb.296098$0P1.92610@twister.nyc.rr.com...> "Joy" <fairly_happy_doesn't_need_any_more_spam@withoutspa myahoo.com>> wrote in message news:bwQSb.3465$tl5.961@bignews1.bellsouth.net...>>>> "JWB" <nospam1111@nowhere.com> wrote in message>> news:fpQSb.296094$0P1.56408@twister.nyc.rr.com...>>>>>> Perhaps. But mail filters work just as well. If she's worried>>> about the other person's reaction... well, that's my whole point.>>> Why would she even *care* about the ex's reaction?>>>> I don't know - this is just throwing out a couple of possible>> scenarios for discussion:>>>> Maybe because she considers the ex to be a friend - so for her it>> is a *friends* reaction, not an *ex's* reaction at all, and she>> does care what her friends think.>>>> Maybe it isn't the ex's reaction she is concerned about, but rather>> her own reaction.>>>> Maybe it is just makes her feel embarrassed in general to have to>> admit that she is partnered with a guy who would tell her to give>> up something that she feels is integral to her sense of self ->> maybe to her it makes her feel squelched and demeaned and she>> doesn't want to admit that to people who know her in RL.>>>> Maybe it is none of these - I don't think Caren said.>> Perhaps not. I think her "keeping doors open" comment (or was it not> wanting to close them?) is somewhat telling. I'm not sure if she is> capable of forgetting a part of her life and moving past it. I say> that with no malice or anything - lots of people are like that. But> I don't think it's healthy. It's almost as if people like that> don't want to commit to the present fully. I lived with a girl like> this once - she had maybe 4 people that she *had* to talk to> constantly on the phone - almost daily; she e-mailed the world; and> she had a few ex's she stayed 'friends" with. I felt I was> somewhere on her list, but certainly below her mother and aunt, a> sister, one ex, and two friends.>> And to succeed with me, I have to be above them all. So, we didn't> make it.>> But then again, maybe her husband's behavior drives her to be that> way. I could see that too. This is interesting. -- "If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time to fertilize your lawn!" Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend. Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

I'm thinking there are two different issues here:

1. Hubby's behavior
2. Caren's behavior

I think that the two are separate issues and really are best off addressed
separately. Otherwise, it becomes a tit-for-tat tug-of-war and nothing is
likely to be resolved.

~Kimberlee


"Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:a_fTb.38972$Wa.15034@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
:
: "Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote
:
: It does you no good to commisurate with her that her husband is
: > behaving badly, because she has no control over how he behaves.
:
: That is only partly true. If Caren continues to be the good guy and give
her
: hubby everything that he needs where is the incentive for him to give her
: her needs? If he is the kind of guy who does stuff that upsets Caren on a
: regular basis and Caren does nothing about it then of course he is going
to
: continue to do those things.
:
: I think Caren can use this opportunity to really drive her point home
about
: her hubby's behaviour. Giving in and dropping the exs would only be
enabling
: the behaviour to continue, IMO.
:
: Amy
:
:
:

Hmm...
I think his choices are not healthy ones for your relationship.
It's a struggle, Caren, but it sounds like he is a very lucky guy to have
you.
I hope that one day he pulls his head out of the clouds and respects you for
all the effort you've made.
~Kimberlee


"Caren" <caren50@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3754f0b3.0401302217.73798454@posting.google.c om...
: Ellie <ellie_first@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<401B1ACD.1AE0F927@hotmail.com>...
: > Chrys wrote:
: >
: > > "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message
: > > news:qczSb.95$bn1.47@nwrdny02.gnilink.net...
: > > > Give it up.
: > > >
: > > > Why would you intentionally do something that bugs your husband?
: > > > Is it to assert yourself? I'm all for assertive women, but pick your
: > > > battles. Too much ego involved. Think of the symbolism of what
: > > > you are doing what does it say to him about you without
: > > > actually using words?
: > > >
: > > > Worst case is to do it on the sly.
: > >
: > > Although I can understand a man being insecure in a case like this
whether
: > > he has reason to be or not, surely you don't mean that women should
never
: > > do anything that bugs their husbands?
: >
: > If the spouse (husband or wife) isn't really unreasonable in
: > their demands why not? What is wrong with trying not to
: > bug one's spouse if it only means giving up on little things?
: >
: > > It's not like she deliberately
: > > decided to do something for no reason but to make him mad.
: >
: > I would ask "is she she deliberately doing something to
: > make her husband happy?" The standard of behavior
: > between a couple shouldn't be merely avoiding deliberate
: > acts of offense, but proactively doing things to enhance
: > happiness -- at least that is what I expect in my marriage.
:
: Okay, I just read all of the responses and it sounds as if most of you
: think that I should give up my friendships that involved men that I
: loved. Okay, so when or if I do that, at what point to I give up
: something else that I find innocent and completely one hundred percent
: innocent?
:
: What are we supposed to give up when we're married. AT what point do
: we say no. About two months ago, my husband got a raise and a new
: position. He wanted to buy a truck. A brand new truck. A big truck
: and commute many miles a day. A gas guzzler pollutin the environment.
: 500 dollar a month payments. A big raise in insurance. We bickered
: over this issue for two weeks before he finally decided, hell, I"m not
: waiting for her approval, I'm buying the truck that I want. I had to
: deal with it and move on. Is this any different than the email issue?
:
: I can tell all of you what I think the issue is for my husband. My
: husband has the tendency to make bad choices. He does sneaky stuff
: and always gets caught. Anything from pornography, to matchmaking
: services, to online chat groups and the list goes on. This has gone
: on for over 11 years and I have tolerated a lot of crap. Yet, it's
: always something. I could spend a week writing a thread about his
: choices. He knows that he has a problem and from time to time, can't
: control what he does (his words). I have been patient, angry,
: empathic, understanding and keep trying to trust him. Then he finds a
: way to sabotage it.
:
: What I think is that he does not trust himself and is projecting that
: onto me and it is really getting me angry. The angry part is that I
: have no ulterior motives. I love communicating with all kinds of
: people. This group is a perfect example. I have made friends online
: and have emailed people privately. That could be seen as something to
: start a new relationship. Hell, I have enough on my hands, I don't
: have any desire to start something on the side for god's sake!!!!
: Ugh, it's almost repulsive to me to think of cheating.
:
: So, now that you have more info, and might possible want more info,
: I'll answer any questions that you might have. I think that my
: husband is putting onto me, what is really about him and I resent
: that. I have never done anything, thinking that this might hurt my
: husband. As I said earlier, since he shared this with me, I have not
: done anything behind his back (not that I did before!) On the other
: hand, every time that he has done something not too bright and against
: what we have agreed upon, not only has he known it was something that
: would hurt me, but it's something that he has hidden. He sucks at
: hiding things. I am like the master dog sniffer. I get gut instincts
: all of the time and can almost guess what's going on. By the way, due
: to his history, he has said that it's okay for me to check his email
: if I feel insecure. I have found emails that he has written back and
: forth to a woman he met in a chat room. Talk about intimate! NONE of
: my emails are anything like that! Not even close. The difference is
: that my stuff is not about looking for something new or exciting. My
: stuff is about caring about people who were once important in my
: life....men or women.
:
: I'm in a people field. I'm into communication and I certainly am not
: into starting up an affair or any kind of intimacy. I resent that
: it's being misread and that I'm not being trusted when I think that
: it's really about him not trusting himself.
:
: Okay, enough already :-)

"Kimberlee" <Kimberlee@delete~to~SENDMAILhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1075686936.625480@prawn... I'm thinking there are two different issues here: 1. Hubby's behavior 2. Caren's behavior I think that the two are separate issues and really are best off addressed separately. Otherwise, it becomes a tit-for-tat tug-of-war and nothing is likely to be resolved.

Well I don't agree. If Mr Caren thinks it is OK to disregard Caren's opinion
about the money spent on the truck he's indirectly telling her that it is OK
to disregard his opinion too.

Marriage or any relationship for that matter is not about two separate sets
of behaviours. Its about teamwork. The behaviour of one affects the
behaviour of the other. Call it tit for tat or tug of war if you like.
That's the nature of relationships.

Amy

"Bill in Co." <LostInTime@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:HOhTb.8068$F23.6204@newsread2.news.pas.earthl ink.net... Tony Miller wrote: On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 19:44:46 GMT, Bill in Co. <LostInTime@earthlink.net> wrote: I think that's true too. I mean, Mr, Caron hasn't being too angelic here (in view of what he has done in the past), and Caren is just asking for some support. This thread started out about "us", as in "what do you happily married people think about this innocent old boyfriend thing". After the overwhelming opinion went against, Caren trotted out previous bad behavior on the part of her husband. This would completely have changed my advice. It's very frustrating to be "played" like that. Well ok, but I honestly don't think Caren did that on purpose, you know.
She just didn't think about the fact we didn't know some of the rest of the
story, I think.

why would the truck have *anything* to do with the e-mailing?

"Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:k25Tb.38536$Wa.13045@news-server.bigpond.net.au... Geeze JWB. Its so obvious that you empathise with Mr Caron on this
emailing the ex issue but Caron is the one asking for support here. Why don't you consider (and try to empathise with) her thoughts on why he is feeling
this way?? You seem to have completely skipped the bit about the truck. Whats with that?


The truck should have *nothing* to do with the e-mailing.

--
JWB

e-mail: jwb3333 at excite dot com

The health of a relationship depends on good communication skills and
conflict resolution.
Being vindictive, or doing something we know the other partner won't like
because the other partner did something we didn't like is a recipe for
disaster.

Sitting down, talking it out and drawing boundaries is a healthier approach.
There are no guarantees in any relationship. But honesty, communication,
boundaries...those are key to the foundation of a healthy relationship.

~Kimberlee


"Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:uEiTb.39134$Wa.8295@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
:
: "Kimberlee" <Kimberlee@delete~to~SENDMAILhotmail.com> wrote in message
: news:1075686936.625480@prawn...
: > I'm thinking there are two different issues here:
: >
: > 1. Hubby's behavior
: > 2. Caren's behavior
: >
: > I think that the two are separate issues and really are best off
addressed
: > separately. Otherwise, it becomes a tit-for-tat tug-of-war and nothing
is
: > likely to be resolved.
:
: Well I don't agree. If Mr Caren thinks it is OK to disregard Caren's
opinion
: about the money spent on the truck he's indirectly telling her that it is
OK
: to disregard his opinion too.
:
: Marriage or any relationship for that matter is not about two separate
sets
: of behaviours. Its about teamwork. The behaviour of one affects the
: behaviour of the other. Call it tit for tat or tug of war if you like.
: That's the nature of relationships.
:
: Amy
:
:

"Kimberlee" <Kimberlee@delete~to~SENDMAILhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1075700341.389504@prawn... The health of a relationship depends on good communication skills and conflict resolution.

I totally agree.
Being vindictive, or doing something we know the other partner won't like because the other partner did something we didn't like is a recipe for disaster.

I totally agree
Sitting down, talking it out and drawing boundaries is a healthier
approach. There are no guarantees in any relationship. But honesty, communication, boundaries...those are key to the foundation of a healthy relationship.

I totally agree

Perhaps you misunderstand me. I do not suggest that Caren do something which
she knows will upset her husband. I suggest she find out why he behaves in
one way and then tells her to not behave in that same way. He is sending her
mixed signals. In one way he tells her it is OK to ignore a spouse's request
and in another way he tells her it is not OK. Caren is confused and frankly
I don't blame her.

Amy

"JWB" <nospam1111@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:GGlTb.301771$0P1.11508@twister.nyc.rr.com... "WhansaMi" <whansami@aol.com> wrote in message news:20040202003116.17204.00001305@mb-m03.aol.com...The truck should have *nothing* to do with the e-mailing.--JWB JWB, yabbut.... I do think it has something to do with it in that (at least how it was brought up here) it seems that Caren and her husband are living out a pattern of "he/she didn't care about my feelings, I'm not going to care about his/hers". So, it seems like they really aren't independent of one another. But then the e-mailing takes on a whole new dimension. It becomes more
about tit-for-tat and less about the stated "I just want to stay in contact".

But that is what relationships are all about. You can't just put every issue
into a separate box. Issues intertwine. A relationship is about giving and
taking. As soon as one partner starts to see the giving part overtaking the
taking part an issue cannot be seen as a separate entity. Take away our
memories and maybe it would work but until then no way it will work!

Amy

Caren,

I was not aware of this pertinent piece of information.

Keeping up with old boyfriends is just the tip of the ice-mountain here!

Hon, if my husband would have done the stuff you´ve described your husband
has done, *repeatedly* I would
have divorced the skunk a long time a go.

No wonder he feels so insecure about you keeping up with old boyfriends.
Straying partners (whether physically or spiritually)
tend to be jealous, as they project what *they* would have done in this
particular situation

Sioban

"Trust is believing someone, knowing you´d have lied in his place."
Winston Churchill





Caren <caren50@msn.com> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
3754f0b3.0401302217.73798454@posting.google.com...
<snip> I can tell all of you what I think the issue is for my husband. My husband has the tendency to make bad choices. He does sneaky stuff and always gets caught. Anything from pornography, to matchmaking services, to online chat groups and the list goes on. This has gone on for over 11 years and I have tolerated a lot of crap. Yet, it's always something. I could spend a week writing a thread about his choices. He knows that he has a problem and from time to time, can't control what he does (his words). I have been patient, angry, empathic, understanding and keep trying to trust him. Then he finds a way to sabotage it.
<snip>On the other hand, every time that he has done something not too bright and against what we have agreed upon, not only has he known it was something that would hurt me, but it's something that he has hidden. He sucks at hiding things. I am like the master dog sniffer. I get gut instincts all of the time and can almost guess what's going on. By the way, due to his history, he has said that it's okay for me to check his email if I feel insecure. I have found emails that he has written back and forth to a woman he met in a chat room. Talk about intimate! NONE of my emails are anything like that! Not even close.

"JWB" <nospam1111@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:GGlTb.301771$0P1.11508@twister.nyc.rr.com... "WhansaMi" <whansami@aol.com> wrote in message news:20040202003116.17204.00001305@mb-m03.aol.com...The truck should have *nothing* to do with the e-mailing.--JWB JWB, yabbut.... I do think it has something to do with it in that (at least how it was brought up here) it seems that Caren and her husband are living out a pattern
of "he/she didn't care about my feelings, I'm not going to care about his/hers". So, it seems like they really aren't independent of one another. But then the e-mailing takes on a whole new dimension. It becomes more
about tit-for-tat and less about the stated "I just want to stay in contact".

Except that what actually happened was that the emailing happened in
response to her finding out that the ex was sick and she wanted to see how
he was. She didn't have any premeditated motive to hurt her husband and
didn't email again after he was upset. So now it's a situation where
she's conformed to his wishes yet again, but he continues to do whatever
he feels like without ever considering her wishes.

"Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:9LqTb.39740$Wa.11551@news-server.bigpond.net.au... "JWB" <nospam1111@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:GGlTb.301771$0P1.11508@twister.nyc.rr.com... "WhansaMi" <whansami@aol.com> wrote in message news:20040202003116.17204.00001305@mb-m03.aol.com... >The truck should have *nothing* to do with the e-mailing. > >-- >JWB > JWB, yabbut.... I do think it has something to do with it in that (at least how it was brought up here) it seems that Caren and her husband are living out a pattern
of "he/she didn't care about my feelings, I'm not going to care about his/hers". So, it seems like they really aren't independent of one another. But then the e-mailing takes on a whole new dimension. It becomes more about tit-for-tat and less about the stated "I just want to stay in contact". But that is what relationships are all about. You can't just put every
issue into a separate box. Issues intertwine. A relationship is about giving and taking. As soon as one partner starts to see the giving part overtaking
the taking part an issue cannot be seen as a separate entity. Take away our memories and maybe it would work but until then no way it will work!

Yes, I agree. But then you can't say "gee, I just want to stay in touch -
it's all innocent, and he's just jealous". In my mind, you have to be honest
about it and add "I also am not giving this up because of 'x'"

Because like it or not, it's *not* totally innocent then - if what you are
assuming is true, then there's a little tiny bit of Caren that thinks "take
that" everytime she hits "send" or whatnot.

"Chrys" <notarealaddress@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:bvlp15$s7e5g$1@ID-198599.news.uni-berlin.de... "JWB" <nospam1111@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:GGlTb.301771$0P1.11508@twister.nyc.rr.com... "WhansaMi" <whansami@aol.com> wrote in message news:20040202003116.17204.00001305@mb-m03.aol.com... >The truck should have *nothing* to do with the e-mailing. > >-- >JWB > JWB, yabbut.... I do think it has something to do with it in that (at least how it was brought up here) it seems that Caren and her husband are living out a pattern of "he/she didn't care about my feelings, I'm not going to care about his/hers". So, it seems like they really aren't independent of one another. But then the e-mailing takes on a whole new dimension. It becomes more about tit-for-tat and less about the stated "I just want to stay in contact". Except that what actually happened was that the emailing happened in response to her finding out that the ex was sick and she wanted to see how he was. She didn't have any premeditated motive to hurt her husband and didn't email again after he was upset. So now it's a situation where she's conformed to his wishes yet again, but he continues to do whatever he feels like without ever considering her wishes.

I agree. But that's only one e-mail partner.

"JWB" <nospam1111@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:NJtTb.117198$cM1.20796395@twister.nyc.rr.com. .. "Chrys" <notarealaddress@lycos.com> wrote in message news:bvlp15$s7e5g$1@ID-198599.news.uni-berlin.de... "JWB" <nospam1111@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:GGlTb.301771$0P1.11508@twister.nyc.rr.com... "WhansaMi" <whansami@aol.com> wrote in message news:20040202003116.17204.00001305@mb-m03.aol.com... > >The truck should have *nothing* to do with the e-mailing. > > > >-- > >JWB > > > > JWB, yabbut.... > > I do think it has something to do with it in that (at least how it
was brought > up here) it seems that Caren and her husband are living out a
pattern of > "he/she didn't care about my feelings, I'm not going to care about his/hers". > So, it seems like they really aren't independent of one another. But then the e-mailing takes on a whole new dimension. It becomes
more about tit-for-tat and less about the stated "I just want to stay in
contact". Except that what actually happened was that the emailing happened in response to her finding out that the ex was sick and she wanted to see
how he was. She didn't have any premeditated motive to hurt her husband
and didn't email again after he was upset. So now it's a situation where she's conformed to his wishes yet again, but he continues to do
whatever he feels like without ever considering her wishes. I agree. But that's only one e-mail partner.

And the other "partner" is someone she's been in contact with since
something like 1972, long before she ever met her husband. Why is he just
now objecting?

"Chrys" <notarealaddress@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:bvlpp9$tdmgf$1@ID-198599.news.uni-berlin.de... "JWB" <nospam1111@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:NJtTb.117198$cM1.20796395@twister.nyc.rr.com. .. "Chrys" <notarealaddress@lycos.com> wrote in message news:bvlp15$s7e5g$1@ID-198599.news.uni-berlin.de... "JWB" <nospam1111@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:GGlTb.301771$0P1.11508@twister.nyc.rr.com... > "WhansaMi" <whansami@aol.com> wrote in message > news:20040202003116.17204.00001305@mb-m03.aol.com... > > >The truck should have *nothing* to do with the e-mailing. > > > > > >-- > > >JWB > > > > > > > JWB, yabbut.... > > > > I do think it has something to do with it in that (at least how it was > brought > > up here) it seems that Caren and her husband are living out a pattern of > > "he/she didn't care about my feelings, I'm not going to care about > his/hers". > > So, it seems like they really aren't independent of one another. > > > But then the e-mailing takes on a whole new dimension. It becomes more about > tit-for-tat and less about the stated "I just want to stay in contact". Except that what actually happened was that the emailing happened in response to her finding out that the ex was sick and she wanted to see how he was. She didn't have any premeditated motive to hurt her husband and didn't email again after he was upset. So now it's a situation where she's conformed to his wishes yet again, but he continues to do whatever he feels like without ever considering her wishes. I agree. But that's only one e-mail partner. And the other "partner" is someone she's been in contact with since something like 1972, long before she ever met her husband. Why is he just now objecting?

Maybe he has been objecting all along (and maybe not). My point is, if she
thinks "he's not going to give up his stuff, then I'm not giving up this",
then the e-mailing itself becomes a pawn in the bigger game. And yes, I
agree sometimes marriage can be about playing the game (for some, anyway).

But then the stated "this is totally innocent and he's just jealous" isn't
really the argument, is it?

The way some are analyzing it, it seems like some of you think that she'd
give up the e-mailing if he'd consult her about buying vehicles and stop
going to dating sites. Which is fine. But that isn't what she posted here
about at first. It may very well come to that, but then she has to be honest
with herself and realize that the e-mailing is part of her ammunition in the
game, and not just the totally innocent activity she said it was.

Ummm. Caren, are you still here? :-)

"Bill in Co." <LostInTime@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:BGvTb.9290$uM2.1400@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net... Ummm. Caren, are you still here? :-)

she really doesn't have to be. She told us the story, and can probably get
just as much out of it by not interacting and watching us analyze and beat
it to death.

Caren <caren50@msn.com> wrote:
I can tell all of you what I think the issue is for my husband. My husband has the tendency to make bad choices. He does sneaky stuff and always gets caught. Anything from pornography, to matchmaking services, to online chat groups and the list goes on. This has gone on for over 11 years and I have tolerated a lot of crap. Yet, it's always something. I could spend a week writing a thread about his choices. He knows that he has a problem and from time to time, can't control what he does (his words). I have been patient, angry, empathic, understanding and keep trying to trust him. Then he finds a way to sabotage it.

Yikes. Yeah, he's projecting. Normally I'd say negotiate a solution
you are both happy with, but it sounds like your H doesn't live up to
agreements in that area.

"JWB" <nospam1111@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:_tuTb.117200$cM1.20807662@twister.nyc.rr.com. .. "Chrys" <notarealaddress@lycos.com> wrote in message news:bvlpp9$tdmgf$1@ID-198599.news.uni-berlin.de... "JWB" <nospam1111@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:NJtTb.117198$cM1.20796395@twister.nyc.rr.com. .. "Chrys" <notarealaddress@lycos.com> wrote in message news:bvlp15$s7e5g$1@ID-198599.news.uni-berlin.de... > "JWB" <nospam1111@nowhere.com> wrote in message > news:GGlTb.301771$0P1.11508@twister.nyc.rr.com... > > "WhansaMi" <whansami@aol.com> wrote in message > > news:20040202003116.17204.00001305@mb-m03.aol.com... > > > >The truck should have *nothing* to do with the e-mailing. > > > > > > > >-- > > > >JWB > > > > > > > > > > JWB, yabbut.... > > > > > > I do think it has something to do with it in that (at least how
it was > > brought > > > up here) it seems that Caren and her husband are living out a pattern > of > > > "he/she didn't care about my feelings, I'm not going to care
about > > his/hers". > > > So, it seems like they really aren't independent of one another. > > > > > > But then the e-mailing takes on a whole new dimension. It becomes more > about > > tit-for-tat and less about the stated "I just want to stay in contact". > > Except that what actually happened was that the emailing happened in > response to her finding out that the ex was sick and she wanted to
see how > he was. She didn't have any premeditated motive to hurt her husband and > didn't email again after he was upset. So now it's a situation
where > she's conformed to his wishes yet again, but he continues to do whatever > he feels like without ever considering her wishes. I agree. But that's only one e-mail partner. And the other "partner" is someone she's been in contact with since something like 1972, long before she ever met her husband. Why is he
just now objecting? Maybe he has been objecting all along (and maybe not). My point is, if she thinks "he's not going to give up his stuff, then I'm not giving up this", then the e-mailing itself becomes a pawn in the bigger game. And yes, I agree sometimes marriage can be about playing the game (for some, anyway). But then the stated "this is totally innocent and he's just jealous" isn't really the argument, is it? The way some are analyzing it, it seems like some of you think that she'd give up the e-mailing if he'd consult her about buying vehicles and stop going to dating sites. Which is fine. But that isn't what she posted here about at first. It may very well come to that, but then she has to be
honest with herself and realize that the e-mailing is part of her ammunition in
the game, and not just the totally innocent activity she said it was.

I see marriage as a partnership and *equality* is an important part of that
to me. To others it isn't but to me it is. Caren has hinted that she is
struggling with an imbalance in her marriage so it seems to me that equality
is important to her too.

Amy

Yep.
Sometimes folks use a double standard, divert, or use the ol' bait and
switch, which are all great tactics to avoid personal accountability.
Unless we have healthy personal boundaries, it's easy to get invested in
defending our actions, rather than maintaining our boundaries.

Usually folks who are addicted (to one thing or another) are very good at
using this tactic...and sometimes we don't even see it comin' until we've
been run over by it.
~Kimberlee

Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message news:<slrnc1r4ik.vc0.tony@home.cigardiary.com>... On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 19:44:46 GMT, Bill in Co. <LostInTime@earthlink.net> wrote: I think that's true too. I mean, Mr, Caron hasn't being too angelic here (in view of what he has done in the past), and Caren is just asking for some support. This thread started out about "us", as in "what do you happily married people think about this innocent old boyfriend thing". After the overwhelming opinion went against, Caren trotted out previous bad behavior on the part of her husband. This would completely have changed my advice. It's very frustrating to be "played" like that. -Tony

Tony, you're far too sensitive if you think that you've been "played".
This did start out as a simple question and the further into it got,
the more information I gave. For goodness sake, I wasn't going to
write the last 11 years of my life. I genuinely wanted people's
opinions and I'm not here to play anyone. Another misinterpretation.
I really didn't take offense at the overwhelming opinion. I did get
defensive in one post and I was accountable for it.

There are several folks in here who have known me for the last 6 or 7
years or so. It was hard stuff for me to talk about then and it's not
any easier now. It's not something that I like to boast about on the
internet. So before you're quick to judge me about "trotting" out
previous "bad behavior", you might want to think twice. If that would
completely change your advice, that's fine. There is no reason for
you to take personally what is a difficult challenge in my life.