>Can you understand why *I* might want to cheat?

Can I understand it, Ted? Yes, I can understand it.
Just as I can understand a person who is unable to
afford food to feed their child would consider robbing
a person or a bank. Just as I can understand a parent
wanting to hurt or kill someone who has hurt or killed
one of their children. But understanding does not equal
condoning and your reasons for 'might want to cheat'
do not equal 'So I should.'

Tracey

I've pondered that many times. Hitting rock bottom is risky -- what if it
doesn't work? Is it more humane to, say, let an alcoholic truly hit rock
bottom -- or to try to intervene early? The alcoholic close to rock bottom
is also very close to death -- and may not be able recover before it's too
late. An extreme analogy? Sure -- but I think worth keeping in mind.

(I wouldn't say I'm upset with *her* so much as with the situation I'm in.
She's not responsible for who she is or how she reacts to things -- given
all of what I'm discovering about her personality that I hadn't really been
attuned to before I can understand quite well why she thinks going to the
counsellor is the most painful experience anyone has ever put her through --
and it was my idea.)

Ted

"Chrys" <notarealaddress@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:bveia2$rceao$1@ID-198599.news.uni-berlin.de... Sometimes people have to hit bottom before change can happen to make them feel better. Perhaps if your wife did have to go through that despair of knowing exactly how unhappy you were, then maybe she could work on the issues she has. It's possible that in time maybe things would be closer and better for both of you. Don't you owe her the truth? It hardly even seems fair for you to be upset with her when you won't be honest with her about how you really feel.

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:bvek4p$r4tll$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... I've pondered that many times. Hitting rock bottom is risky -- what if
it doesn't work? Is it more humane to, say, let an alcoholic truly hit
rock bottom -- or to try to intervene early? The alcoholic close to rock
bottom is also very close to death -- and may not be able recover before it's
too late. An extreme analogy? Sure -- but I think worth keeping in mind. (I wouldn't say I'm upset with *her* so much as with the situation I'm
in. She's not responsible for who she is or how she reacts to things --
given all of what I'm discovering about her personality that I hadn't really
been attuned to before I can understand quite well why she thinks going to
the counsellor is the most painful experience anyone has ever put her
through -- and it was my idea.)

It is an extreme analogy. She may feel horrible if she knew exactly how
you feel, and simply going to therapy may be painful enough, but this
isn't going to kill her. Is the counseling doing anything at all? Does
the counselor think that there is any possibility that she can change?

In article <bvem68$rq7a4$1@ID-198599.news.uni-berlin.de>, Chrys
<notarealaddress@lycos.com> wrote:
It is an extreme analogy. She may feel horrible if she knew exactly how you feel, and simply going to therapy may be painful enough, but this isn't going to kill her. Is the counseling doing anything at all? Does the counselor think that there is any possibility that she can change?

Is the counselling doing anything at all? Good question -- he seems to
think so and has given us encouraging words. As to whether "she can
change" the jury is still out (read all the posts here, for instance)
on whether she needs to change at all -- there is a strong camp that
says I'm the one who needs to change. He has never said anything
directly about either one of us needing to change.

Ted

In article <weptd111zj.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu>, Doug Anderson
<ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote:
You don't need her to condone it.

Funny. When I read that I was reminded of one of my tearful reactions
to Fiddler on the Roof when we saw it a couple of years ago -- how
being wedded to tradition estranged Tevya from his children, one after
the other. They needed him to condone their marraiges outside
tradition -- and he wouldn't. Luckily, I guess, my wife didn't ask me
why it so moved me -- but somehow tthe musical made me think of my
situation.

Ted

"Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> writes:
I have a huge problem with the amount of dishonesty Ted is prepared to live with. He won't tell his wife his true feelings and I believe he lies to himself about why he won't reveal himself to her. He's not protecting her he's keeping all the cards in his hands so he has control of the situation.

It feels this way to me too.

On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 07:21:09 GMT, Doug Anderson
<ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> writes: I have a huge problem with the amount of dishonesty Ted is prepared to live with. He won't tell his wife his true feelings and I believe he lies to himself about why he won't reveal himself to her. He's not protecting her he's keeping all the cards in his hands so he has control of the situation.It feels this way to me too.

I honestly don't know how people with such strong religious
convictions deal with this sort of thing. It has to be tearing him up
inside at a level that not all of us can understand. I'm not
suggesting that we're a bunch of Atheists or anything, but it's got to
be difficult coming to terms with this in his particular frame of
mind.

--Bran

All of life's questions are answered in the arts.


"Seeker" <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message
news:300120042336355321%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com... In article <weptd111zj.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu>, Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote: You don't need her to condone it. Funny. When I read that I was reminded of one of my tearful reactions to Fiddler on the Roof when we saw it a couple of years ago -- how being wedded to tradition estranged Tevya from his children, one after the other. They needed him to condone their marraiges outside tradition -- and he wouldn't. Luckily, I guess, my wife didn't ask me why it so moved me -- but somehow tthe musical made me think of my situation. Ted

"Brian" <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fh4n109em2iiqu72335jiuq3q1smp5j1sl@4ax.com... On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 07:21:09 GMT, Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote:"Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> writes: I have a huge problem with the amount of dishonesty Ted is prepared to
live with. He won't tell his wife his true feelings and I believe he lies to himself about why he won't reveal himself to her. He's not protecting
her he's keeping all the cards in his hands so he has control of the
situation.It feels this way to me too. I honestly don't know how people with such strong religious convictions deal with this sort of thing. It has to be tearing him up inside at a level that not all of us can understand. I'm not suggesting that we're a bunch of Atheists or anything, but it's got to be difficult coming to terms with this in his particular frame of mind. --Bran

I gone back to believing in the ancient Greek gods. Seeker is
dealing with Aphrodite and Eros.

http://www.messagenet.com/myths/immortals.html

urf wrote: All of life's questions are answered in the arts.

Now that is interesting statement, urf! Can you expand on that a bit? (not
denying this, just trying to really grasp its full meaning) Maybe you mean
if you truly experience the arts, you truly experience life, and life's
questions are therein answered.

shinypenny wrote:

(Sorry, I almost missed this, Jen!)
Oh, I read Ted differently on this point. I think his references to the pharmacist's past transgressions is his way of saying to us, "Since she learned her lesson in the past, I am quite safe with her because she'd never make that mistake again." I don't think he sees her as a "soiled dove" he can take advantage of.

I used to feel that way until he said very recently that if she offered
herself he'd have taken her up on it. He wants her to make the decision for
him and whether it would be a good thing for her is far away from his
thoughts.
I find it interesting that Ted's latched his infatuation on to someone whom he firmly believes will never, ever reciprocate. He's backed himself into yet another impossible corner. On the one hand, he has set things up in his own mind to believe that his wife will never, ever meet his needs for more passion. On the other hand, neither does he believe that the pharmacist will ever go outside her own value system to meet his needs, either. Very convenient for him, isn't it? He's set it up so there's not a single person in his life that will ever push him out of the impossible corner he's in. Clearly he likes being in that corner and has no intention to ever get out of it. That's fine - but I would have more respect if he'd stop whining about it so much.

Yes, yes and yes.

Tai

In article <fh4n109em2iiqu72335jiuq3q1smp5j1sl@4ax.com>, Brian
<jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> wrote:
I honestly don't know how people with such strong religious convictions deal with this sort of thing.

It has to be tearing him up inside at a level that not all of us can understand.

That is perhaps true, but not for the reason you give -- because it has
very little to do with what I think you mean by "religious
convictions." Before I go off on some kind of tangent (not that I
might not anyway), what do you mean by "religious convictions?"

Ted

"Seeker" <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message
news:310120042238017634%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com... In article <fh4n109em2iiqu72335jiuq3q1smp5j1sl@4ax.com>, Brian <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> wrote: I honestly don't know how people with such strong religious convictions deal with this sort of thing. It has to be tearing him up inside at a level that not all of us can understand. That is perhaps true, but not for the reason you give -- because it has very little to do with what I think you mean by "religious convictions." Before I go off on some kind of tangent (not that I might not anyway), what do you mean by "religious convictions?"

To me it means that one would weigh their actions vs. what their religion
"allows". That they let their religion influence their life choices.

In article <9nPSb.3348$KV5.94@nwrdny01.gnilink.net>, urf
<urf@nospam.com> wrote:
I gone back to believing in the ancient Greek gods. Seeker is dealing with Aphrodite and Eros.

Sounds as good an explanation as any to me, although Jung's notion of
anima resonated strongly with me when I first encountered it.

Arts or psychology, urf?

Ted

Brian wrote: On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 07:21:09 GMT, Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote:"Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> writes: I have a huge problem with the amount of dishonesty Ted is prepared to live with. He won't tell his wife his true feelings and I believe he lies to himself about why he won't reveal himself to her. He's not protecting her he's keeping all the cards in his hands so he has control of the situation.It feels this way to me too. I honestly don't know how people with such strong religious convictions deal with this sort of thing. It has to be tearing him up inside at a level that not all of us can understand. I'm not suggesting that we're a bunch of Atheists or anything, but it's got to be difficult coming to terms with this in his particular frame of mind. --Bran

For Ted: Since your religious convictions are at the base of all this
are you seeing a spiritual advisor <priest, minister> or conventional
therapist?

amy

"Seeker" <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message
news:300120042336355321%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com... In article <weptd111zj.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu>, Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote: You don't need her to condone it. Funny. When I read that I was reminded of one of my tearful reactions to Fiddler on the Roof when we saw it a couple of years ago -- how being wedded to tradition estranged Tevya from his children, one after the other. They needed him to condone their marraiges outside tradition -- and he wouldn't. Luckily, I guess, my wife didn't ask me why it so moved me -- but somehow tthe musical made me think of my situation.

That is not what happened in Fiddler on the Roof. With his first three
daughters he was able to overcome his attachment to tradition, condone their
marriages and maintain their relationship. Only with the fourth daughter
(who married a gentile) was he pushed beyond what he could handle.

Your situation makes me think of Tevye's relationship with his wife, not
with his daughters. Especially in this song:



TEVYE
Do you love me?

GOLDE
Do I what?

TEVYE
Do you love me?

GOLDE
Do I love you?

TEVYE
Well?

GOLDE
With our daughters getting married
And there's trouble in the town
You're upset, you're worn-out
Go inside, go lie down
Maybe it's indigestion!

TEVYE
Golde, I'm asking you a question
Do you love me?

GOLDE
You're a fool!

TEVYE
I know! But do you love me?

GOLDE
Do I love you?

TEVYE
Well?

GOLDE
For twenty-five years I've washed your clothes
Cooked your meals, cleaned the house
Given you children, milked your cow
After twenty-five years, why talk about love right now?

TEVYE
Golde, the first time I saw you
Was on our wedding day
I was scared

GOLDE
I was shy

TEVYE
I was nervous

GOLDE
So was I

TEVYE
But my father and my mother said
We'd learn to love each other
So now I'm asking you, Golde
Do you love me?

GOLDE
I'm your wife!

TEVYE
I know! But do you love me?

GOLDE
Do I love him?

TEVYE
Well?

GOLDE
For twenty-five years I've lived with him
Fought with him, starved with him
Twenty-five years my bed is his
If that's not love, what is?

TEVYE
Then you love me!

GOLDE
I suppose I do

TEVYE
And I suppose I love you, too

TEVYE & GOLDE
It doesn't change a thing
But even so -
After twenty-five years
It's nice to know


Jayne

Oh what an absolutely wonderful and appropriate thing to post!

It brought a tear and a smile to my face as I read it.

Thank you Jayne.

"Jayne Kulikauskas" <momkulio@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:bvjeu8$t1rm9$1@ID-141597.news.uni-berlin.de... "Seeker" <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message news:300120042336355321%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com... In article <weptd111zj.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu>, Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote: You don't need her to condone it. Funny. When I read that I was reminded of one of my tearful reactions to Fiddler on the Roof when we saw it a couple of years ago -- how being wedded to tradition estranged Tevya from his children, one after the other. They needed him to condone their marraiges outside tradition -- and he wouldn't. Luckily, I guess, my wife didn't ask me why it so moved me -- but somehow tthe musical made me think of my situation. That is not what happened in Fiddler on the Roof. With his first three daughters he was able to overcome his attachment to tradition, condone
their marriages and maintain their relationship. Only with the fourth daughter (who married a gentile) was he pushed beyond what he could handle. Your situation makes me think of Tevye's relationship with his wife, not with his daughters. Especially in this song: TEVYE Do you love me? GOLDE Do I what? TEVYE Do you love me? GOLDE Do I love you? TEVYE Well? GOLDE With our daughters getting married And there's trouble in the town You're upset, you're worn-out Go inside, go lie down Maybe it's indigestion! TEVYE Golde, I'm asking you a question Do you love me? GOLDE You're a fool! TEVYE I know! But do you love me? GOLDE Do I love you? TEVYE Well? GOLDE For twenty-five years I've washed your clothes Cooked your meals, cleaned the house Given you children, milked your cow After twenty-five years, why talk about love right now? TEVYE Golde, the first time I saw you Was on our wedding day I was scared GOLDE I was shy TEVYE I was nervous GOLDE So was I TEVYE But my father and my mother said We'd learn to love each other So now I'm asking you, Golde Do you love me? GOLDE I'm your wife! TEVYE I know! But do you love me? GOLDE Do I love him? TEVYE Well? GOLDE For twenty-five years I've lived with him Fought with him, starved with him Twenty-five years my bed is his If that's not love, what is? TEVYE Then you love me! GOLDE I suppose I do TEVYE And I suppose I love you, too TEVYE & GOLDE It doesn't change a thing But even so - After twenty-five years It's nice to know Jayne

"Bill in Co." <LostInTime@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:CESSb.4391$uM2.2278@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net... urf wrote: All of life's questions are answered in the arts. Now that is interesting statement, urf! Can you expand on that a bit?
(not denying this, just trying to really grasp its full meaning) Maybe you
mean if you truly experience the arts, you truly experience life, and life's questions are therein answered.

As Jayne points out in her post. It is all there for the taking. All of
life's
question have been asked and answered somewhere.

When we try to find answers to our life's question we are in a sense
reinventing the wheel.

I first heard the line (paraphrased here) in the movie "My Favorite Year".
It was spoken by the Peter O' Toole character, I believe his name in the
picture was Alan Swan, a movie actor with a drinking problem.
The moment I heard it I recognized it as a "universal truth", and
incorporated
it into my thinking. Now, whenever I read a book, see a movie or play I look
for the lesson to be learned in the art of the presenter. Those lessons
are everywhere.

"Amy D" <amykae@joimail.com> wrote in message
news:401D327F.39ED6CA2@joimail.com... For Ted: Since your religious convictions are at the base of all this are you seeing a spiritual advisor <priest, minister> or conventional therapist?

All of the above. I meet with a spiritual director once a month (who also
happens to faciliate the book group) and also meet with a retired bishop
three or four times a year. Our therapist himself in addition to his formal
training (PhD) in that field has an MDiv. as well. And don't forget that
"the pharmacist" has an Associate in Ministry degree and completed the
gruelling year-long CPE training (chaplaincy).

Ted