"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<bvbslp$qgrl6$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de>... Jumping in here without having kept up: a chance comment from someone brought this to mind. In two and half months I will be 60 years old. At that point I will have been married for 37 1/2 years. It is almost certain I will turn 60 without ever having been kissed romantically. It is almost certain I will turn 60 without a woman ever having said to me, intending to follow through on it, she wants to make love to me or wants me to make love to her. (I have had one or two say things that indicated if circumstances were different, they likely *would* have said that to me -- and that felt good.) Time is running out. I don't want to die without having experienced those parts of my humanity. Can you understand why *I* might want to cheat? Ted

<snip>

I have no problem understanding why you'd want something like that and
why cheating might seem attractive, but ultimately you have to decide
how important these experiences are to you and *act accordingly*. If
staying with your wife is more important, then quit torturing yourself
and your wife by coveting these other women. It sounds like you see
the Pharmacist rather infrequently. Just stop. Explain to her why.
She'll understand.

It is hard enough for your wife to demonstrate her love, I can imagine
how much harder it must be for her if she doesn't believe that you
love her. That's a lot to ask Ted.

I sense that whatever love you have for your wife is 99% platonic.
That's not enough to get her to respond to you in a manner that you
dream about. Once in a while I have to remind myself of this but I can
tell you that my wife demonstrates a whole lot more affection when she
feels genuinely loved. Indifference and general agreement on
financial matters just doesn't cut it.

The only other option I see (aside from leaving your wife) is leading
some dual life either with your wife's OK or without it. Maybe you can
somehow justify that remaining married to your wife while loving
somebody else is in everyone's best interest, but that's not something
I'd personally want to try.

If the Pharmacist were to one day "ask you in" and you were able to
experience those things you've longed to experience, - what then?

"Jingle Bells" <jinglebells5555@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f804e152.0401292052.49193d29@posting.google.c om... I have no problem understanding why you'd want something like that and why cheating might seem attractive, but ultimately you have to decide how important these experiences are to you and *act accordingly*. If staying with your wife is more important, then quit torturing yourself and your wife by coveting these other women. It sounds like you see the Pharmacist rather infrequently. Just stop. Explain to her why. She'll understand.

I wonder what you mean by "see infrequently"...

With the exception of the time she was going to seminary by some measure
we've seen each other on the average of once a week for over twenty years.
To be fair, until '97 or '98 our contact with each other was pretty
superficial (we were both in choir together) but at that point I'd say we
started to build an actual friendship where we had substantial conversations
about shared interests rather than just happening to share them. The only
"counselling" I've had from her (referring to some other post) was one
session in '99, which as I recall led me to having a few not very productive
sessions with a therapist in my HMO, although that did get me through a
crisis. Somewhere in around '00 she invited my wife and me to participate
in a couple of events with her, and it was about then we were introduced to
her then new boyfriend. At about that time also she took the trouble of
telling me her work schedule at the drugstore, saying she'd love it if I
stopped by to see her now and then -- that she had few friends who shared
her spiritual interests the way I did. It was sometime in there that she
and her boyfriend attended a concert with my wife and me and I know that was
a memorable experience for both of us. That fall I was asked by the other
women in it to recruit two new "wacky women" into the small book group I'm
in (two had to leave because of conflicts) and I invited both "the
pharmacist " and someone else from our church and both accepted. So,
except for when the book group doesn't meet over the summer I spend a
substantial amount of time with her once a month, a good forty minutes of
that just the two of us in the car. We three car-pooled together to the
group for about a year, at which point the other woman had to drop out
because of her parents' ill health. In the summer of '02 "the
pharmacist's" boyfriend left her and, yes, the chemistry of our relationship
changed subtly immediately -- for one thing, she shared an awful lot about
herself in telling me about it and that's when I sensed what "emotional
intimacy" might be like. And, yes, depending on what else is going on I do
drop by the drugstore once every week or two; and, yes, my wife knows I do,
although not always when -- she knows that "the pharmacist" almost always
works Tuesday evenings, so more than once when I've had to have a
prescription filled she's said, "You'll want to pick that up on Tuesady so
you can see [her name], won't you?" She'll sometimes ask how she's doing,
sometimes not.

(You do understand, don't you, that when I discovered it I told "the
pharmacist" almost right away that I'd fallen in love with her? She
pointed out to me sometime afterwards that -- even though she'd decided
never again to have an affair with a married man -- that my having said so
didn't frighten her off; interpret that as you will.)

Ted

"Chrys" <notarealaddress@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:bve7tv$rghkc$1@ID-198599.news.uni-berlin.de... I'd suggest that you find a way to get out of that stage. I mean it's sounding more like the stage you're really in is the "I'm waiting for you to die so I can have a satisfying relationship" stage. There aren't a lot of options. You've been stuck at this point for a long time. Your options are to either force her into counseling to see if things can be changed (but you don't want to upset her), to get divorced (but you won't do that either), or to have an affair (which you seem to be trying to justify lately). Why not do something, anything, rather than continue feeling miserable?

Um, possibly you're new or haven't been paying attention -- we *have* been
in counselling for over a year and a half now.

Ted

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:bve8se$ccq5b$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... Um, possibly you're new or haven't been paying attention -- we *have*
been in counselling for over a year and a half now. Ted

I just wasn't paying attention. I didn't remember all the details of your
situation.

That's good. Anyone here who *does* probably needs to get a life...

(either that or I'm very flattered by the attention.)

Ted

"Chrys" <notarealaddress@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:bve9jf$qskn1$1@ID-198599.news.uni-berlin.de... "Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:bve8se$ccq5b$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de... Um, possibly you're new or haven't been paying attention -- we *have* been in counselling for over a year and a half now. Ted I just wasn't paying attention. I didn't remember all the details of your situation.

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<bve8ij$rrk6j$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de>... "Jingle Bells" <jinglebells5555@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:f804e152.0401292052.49193d29@posting.google.c om... I have no problem understanding why you'd want something like that and why cheating might seem attractive, but ultimately you have to decide how important these experiences are to you and *act accordingly*. If staying with your wife is more important, then quit torturing yourself and your wife by coveting these other women. It sounds like you see the Pharmacist rather infrequently. Just stop. Explain to her why. She'll understand. I wonder what you mean by "see infrequently"...

<snip>

I mean that by making a few relatively simple changes in your life,
you could avoid spending time with her almost entirely. Extracting
yourself from the book club sounds like it would be the hardest thing.
Are you both still involved in the same choir?

If you saw each other every day in the office it would be much more
difficult to avoid her.

(You do understand, don't you, that when I discovered it I told "the pharmacist" almost right away that I'd fallen in love with her?
She pointed out to me sometime afterwards that -- even though she'd decided never again to have an affair with a married man -- that my having said so didn't frighten her off; interpret that as you will.)

I've seen you mention that she told you that several times since
you've first started posting. How do you interpret it? It obviously
has great (potential?) meaning to you otherwise those few words
uttered a year or two ago would not occupy such a major part of your
consciousness.

Here's what I see: Person A loves Person B, Person B thinks of Person
A only as friend. It is my experience that Person A will often hang
on everything B says and does, trying to attribute a higher meaning to
words and actions that person B may have put little thought to.

I have a 40 something friend who's never had a real relationship save
for this short lived thing with a stripper that I'm not sure I
understand the true nature of. Anyway he's had a number of "close
friendships" like the one you have with the pharmacist except that
they tended to be people from his day to day life. I remember one in
particular where he agonized over what he should get her for
Christmas. He wanted to get her something very personal. I don't
remember what he got her, but I do remember him being quite upset that
the gift he got from her wasn't "personal" enough. I remember
thinking: "What did you expect? -she's not your girlfriend." He knew
she wasn't but that didn't stop him from wanting her to be. The
"friendship" ended shortly after she started seeing somebody.

Ted, it was a terribly sad thing to witness. He consistently invested
all this emotional capital in women he had no future with when there
were and are women who would have been both available and happy to
have him.

You're making the same mistake.

In article <f804e152.0401301455.196ed2a0@posting.google.com>, Jingle
Bells <jinglebells5555@yahoo.com> wrote:
I mean that by making a few relatively simple changes in your life, you could avoid spending time with her almost entirely. Extracting yourself from the book club sounds like it would be the hardest thing. Are you both still involved in the same choir?
Not that it's especially relevant, no. She now goes to a different
church.
If you saw each other every day in the office it would be much more difficult to avoid her.

This assumes I want to...
(You do understand, don't you, that when I discovered it I told "the pharmacist" almost right away that I'd fallen in love with her? She pointed out to me sometime afterwards that -- even though she'd decided never again to have an affair with a married man -- that my having said so didn't frighten her off; interpret that as you will.) I've seen you mention that she told you that several times since you've first started posting. How do you interpret it? It obviously has great (potential?) meaning to you otherwise those few words uttered a year or two ago would not occupy such a major part of your consciousness.
That was only part of a much longer set of conversations and exchanges.
Mostly I take it, and other related comments, as meaning she finds me
attractive enough she has to consciously work not to act on that -- and
I seem to need that assurance, for I certainly don't get it from my
wife. Whether it's an illusion on my part or not almost doesn't matter
-- when I'm with "the pharmacist" I feel loved; when I'm with my wife
I don't. Feeling loved a little of the time I think gives me the
energy to pursue the goal of finding that with my wife. Am I deluding
myself in that? I don't know.
Ted, it was a terribly sad thing to witness. He consistently invested all this emotional capital in women he had no future with when there were and are women who would have been both available and happy to have him. You're making the same mistake.

They may be related, but they aren't the same: there are *no* women
available to me. Do I have enough emotional capital to invest it on
both her and my wife? Those who say no may be right -- but at least i
seem to get *some* return on my investment with her and none with my
wife.

Ted

In article <440fc4e2.0401301419.67b71cf8@posting.google.com>,
Chamberlin <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> wrote:
Ted, you and I need to go out, bring a bunch of $1's, get drunk, and hit some boobie bars. We'd have a good time.

I don't drink, Brian.
As to the rest, no, I don't think I'd have a good time.

Ted

Seeker wrote:
That was only part of a much longer set of conversations and exchanges. Mostly I take it, and other related comments, as meaning she finds me attractive enough she has to consciously work not to act on that -- and I seem to need that assurance, for I certainly don't get it from my wife. Whether it's an illusion on my part or not almost doesn't matter -- when I'm with "the pharmacist" I feel loved; when I'm with my wife I don't. Feeling loved a little of the time I think gives me the energy to pursue the goal of finding that with my wife. Am I deluding myself in that? I don't know.

But how much energy is "the pharmacist" having to expend to give you the
impression that she thinks you lovable and tempting? It doesn't seem to be
very much to me. Does she ever seek you out? Phone you at work, suggest you
go for a coffee when she finishes her work? I reckon she has exactly as much
contact with you as she wants and your feelings for her far outweigh hers
for you.

What would happen if you took the initiative and suggested you and she meet
privately? Apart for her fainting from shock at your stepping out of your
usual passivity, that is...

Ted, it was a terribly sad thing to witness. He consistently invested all this emotional capital in women he had no future with when there were and are women who would have been both available and happy to have him. You're making the same mistake. They may be related, but they aren't the same: there are *no* women available to me. Do I have enough emotional capital to invest it on both her and my wife? Those who say no may be right -- but at least i seem to get *some* return on my investment with her and none with my wife.

It's all very mooning, hearts and flowerish and and adolescent, Ted. I'm
sorry but even if you did leave your wife and start looking for the kind of
woman you think you'd be happy with, this woman is not her.

Tai




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Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message news:<300120042328155212%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com>... In article <f804e152.0401301455.196ed2a0@posting.google.com>, Jingle Bells <jinglebells5555@yahoo.com> wrote:

<snip>
You asked (You do understand, don't you, that when I discovered it I told "the pharmacist" almost right away that I'd fallen in love with her? She pointed out to me sometime afterwards that -- even though she'd decided never again to have an affair with a married man -- that my having said so didn't frighten her off; interpret that as you will.) I've seen you mention that she told you that several times since you've first started posting. How do you interpret it? It obviously has great (potential?) meaning to you otherwise those few words uttered a year or two ago would not occupy such a major part of your consciousness. That was only part of a much longer set of conversations and exchanges. Mostly I take it, and other related comments, as meaning she finds me attractive enough she has to consciously work not to act on that -- and I seem to need that assurance, for I certainly don't get it from my wife. Whether it's an illusion on my part or not almost doesn't matter -- when I'm with "the pharmacist" I feel loved; when I'm with my wife I don't. Feeling loved a little of the time I think gives me the energy to pursue the goal of finding that with my wife. Am I deluding myself in that? I don't know.

I don't know either Ted, but don't confuse feeling loved with being
loved (although both are important). Your wife is doing some things
that are very difficult for her in order to make you happy. Would the
Pharmacist put that much effort into maintaining the relationship she
has with you? I suspect that if things got at all uncomfortable for
the Pharmacist, that would be the end of your friendship.
Ted, it was a terribly sad thing to witness. He consistently invested all this emotional capital in women he had no future with when there were and are women who would have been both available and happy to have him. You're making the same mistake. They may be related, but they aren't the same: there are *no* women available to me.

In the sense that I meant available, your wife fits the description.
There may be others too who you don't even know yet.
Do I have enough emotional capital to invest it on both her and my wife? Those who say no may be right -- but at least i seem to get *some* return on my investment with her and none with my wife.

I think your focus is on what you're not getting from your wife. I
think if you took an honest and complete look at it, you'd realize
that over the years you've gotten quite a lot out of your investment
in your wife. You have two good kids, don't you?

What prompted this sub-discussion was your stating that you did not
want to die without having been kissed or having had a woman tell you
that she wanted to make love to you. There's nothing wrong with
wanting those things but they are not the key to happiness. Plenty of
miserable people have had those experiences.

To me the key to being happy is doing what it takes to feel good about
yourself. Of course your value system plays a big role in that, but I
have done some things that were mostly selfish and did result in
others getting hurt that nevertheless helped me feel good about
myself. Generally that's not true, but there have been instances.
Again you need to figure out what's most important to you.

"Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:bvfhd3$r3c38$1@ID-123442.news.uni-berlin.de... Seeker wrote: But how much energy is "the pharmacist" having to expend to give you the impression that she thinks you lovable and tempting? It doesn't seem to be very much to me. Does she ever seek you out? Phone you at work, suggest
you go for a coffee when she finishes her work? I reckon she has exactly as
much contact with you as she wants and your feelings for her far outweigh hers for you.
I understand fully it is very much one-sided. But I also know that is at
least a little part of her personality -- that she needs to be prodded to do
things. She has "sought me out" to the extent of now and then telling me
her work/concert schedule and an occasional "unsolicited" email. But, yes,
she is not investing very much in this -- just as much, I guess, as she
thinks is necessary to keep it alive. I'm grateful for just that. And yes
(in response to someone else) I do read an awful lot into little things --
partly because I think she's consciously trying not to "encourage" me too
much. She knows how things are. An example of a little thing I read a lot
into was the time, oh maybe a year and a half ago, where after we'd hugged
goodbye I said, "I enjoy being with you." She replied, "me too." She
could have said nothing. Or she could have said, "thanks" or "that's nice."
Or she could have made a joke or a self-deprecating remark. I think her
response was unguarded and honest.
What would happen if you took the initiative and suggested you and she
meet privately? Apart for her fainting from shock at your stepping out of your usual passivity, that is...
I've done so on four occasions and she accepted all four but didn't show for
one, and I think she had a plausible reason for that. We've ridden
together "privately" to the book group easily a dozen times and any one of
those she could have easily declined and opted for us to drive separately,
for she has done so a few times when she wasn't sure of her schedule or was
going to be in a different part of town beforehand.

Ted

"Jingle Bells" <jinglebells5555@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f804e152.0402022306.4f5218fe@posting.google.c om... To be fair Ted, you have to admit that you are cutting off a fair amount of yourself from your wife as well. You have to be willing to accept the scary parts of intimacy if you want the good parts.
I understand that. The question is -- how do we move from where we are to
that point? It is obviously not a simple matter of "just doing it" -- I
can't bring myself to disclose those scary parts to her either in little
doses or all at once.
You want a soul mate, and maybe you'll find one, or your wife will turn into one, but I believe it's in your best interest to learn how to be happy without one. It'll put a lot less burden on the soul mate when/if you do find them.

Is a soulmate someone you discover -- or someone you are given? As best I
understand things, my wife *is* my soulmate -- only (and that's a big
"only") she doesn't feel like it. I have met one other who felt llike my
soulmate (I've talked about her before -- not "the pharmacist") but she
clearly wasn't it.

Ted

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<bvogc1$um9s2$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de>... "Jingle Bells" <jinglebells5555@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:f804e152.0402022306.4f5218fe@posting.google.c om... To be fair Ted, you have to admit that you are cutting off a fair amount of yourself from your wife as well. You have to be willing to accept the scary parts of intimacy if you want the good parts. I understand that. The question is -- how do we move from where we are to that point? It is obviously not a simple matter of "just doing it" -- I can't bring myself to disclose those scary parts to her either in little doses or all at once.

Don't know Ted. Just pointing out that you can't lay the blame for
lack of intimacy at your wife's feet. I think it's been a comfortable
arrangement for you both.
You want a soul mate, and maybe you'll find one, or your wife will turn into one, but I believe it's in your best interest to learn how to be happy without one. It'll put a lot less burden on the soul mate when/if you do find them. Is a soulmate someone you discover -- or someone you are given? As best I understand things, my wife *is* my soulmate -- only (and that's a big "only") she doesn't feel like it. I have met one other who felt llike my soulmate (I've talked about her before -- not "the pharmacist") but she clearly wasn't it. Ted


I'm probably the wrong person to ask, because I don't believe that
actively looking or trying to mold a soulmate for yourself should be
an all encompassing pursuit. I don't consider my wife to be a
soulmate. I'm not sure that I have or even want one. I'm quite happy
that my wife and I have both things in common and distinct
differences.

She's good at things that I simply am not, and I'm grateful that she
has interests apart from mine because our kids (and me too) have much
richer lives than they would otherwise have. Yet we have enough in
common that we can enjoy doing things together. And to borrow from
another thread, we would each be able move on if the other died.

"Jingle Bells" <jinglebells5555@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f804e152.0402031149.5137923d@posting.google.c om... Don't know Ted. Just pointing out that you can't lay the blame for lack of intimacy at your wife's feet. I think it's been a comfortable arrangement for you both.
Oh, very definitely. Something our therapist keeps pointing out.
If it is my job, which it pretty clearly seems to be, to move out of that
comfort zone, is it not her job to help make that move be less
uncomfortable? I'm probably the wrong person to ask, because I don't believe that actively looking or trying to mold a soulmate for yourself should be an all encompassing pursuit. I don't consider my wife to be a soulmate. I'm not sure that I have or even want one. I'm quite happy that my wife and I have both things in common and distinct differences. She's good at things that I simply am not, and I'm grateful that she has interests apart from mine because our kids (and me too) have much richer lives than they would otherwise have. Yet we have enough in common that we can enjoy doing things together. And to borrow from another thread, we would each be able move on if the other died.

Ah, therein by implication you define what a soulmate is (someone who is lke
you in many ways.) Others might give a different definition. That's why I
posed the question the way I did -- is a soulmate someone you discover who
has such and such characteristics, or is a soulmate someone about whom
(literally or not) God says, "you two are meant for each other"? (this is
probably *not* a good point to reawaken the "what is a soulmate" thread that
shows up here every now and then.)

(I noticed in my earlier post I wrote something that could be misread --
when I said that my wife "doesn't feel like it" [my soulmate] I wasn't
referring to what she felt or thought about the topic, but simply that I
don't usually get an emotional response when I'm with her or thinking about
her that I would think I ought to get from my "soulmate.")

Ted

Seeker wrote: "Jingle Bells" <jinglebells5555@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:f804e152.0402031149.5137923d@posting.google.c om... Don't know Ted. Just pointing out that you can't lay the blame for lack of intimacy at your wife's feet. I think it's been a comfortable arrangement for you both. Oh, very definitely. Something our therapist keeps pointing out. If it is my job, which it pretty clearly seems to be, to move out of that comfort zone, is it not her job to help make that move be less uncomfortable?

No. It's going to be uncomfortable and she's not really responsible for
YOUR comfort level in these types of things. Are you going to wait
around forever waiting for her to do whatever it is that "looks to you
like she is making that move more comfortable for you"? If you are
stuck in a comfort zone and in a rut one of you has to make the move.
It won't be comfortable but by one making the move the other will get
uncomfortable and make a move, too. I think you are afraid of what move
she will make if she feels uncomfortable. That's a valid fear. But
NOTHING else will work until one makes the move.

I'm probably the wrong person to ask, because I don't believe that actively looking or trying to mold a soulmate for yourself should be an all encompassing pursuit. I don't consider my wife to be a soulmate. I'm not sure that I have or even want one. I'm quite happy that my wife and I have both things in common and distinct differences. She's good at things that I simply am not, and I'm grateful that she has interests apart from mine because our kids (and me too) have much richer lives than they would otherwise have. Yet we have enough in common that we can enjoy doing things together. And to borrow from another thread, we would each be able move on if the other died. Ah, therein by implication you define what a soulmate is (someone who is lke you in many ways.) Others might give a different definition. That's why I posed the question the way I did -- is a soulmate someone you discover who has such and such characteristics, or is a soulmate someone about whom (literally or not) God says, "you two are meant for each other"? (this is probably *not* a good point to reawaken the "what is a soulmate" thread that shows up here every now and then.) (I noticed in my earlier post I wrote something that could be misread -- when I said that my wife "doesn't feel like it" [my soulmate] I wasn't referring to what she felt or thought about the topic, but simply that I don't usually get an emotional response when I'm with her or thinking about her that I would think I ought to get from my "soulmate.") Ted

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<bvogc1$um9s2$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de>... "Jingle Bells" <jinglebells5555@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:f804e152.0402022306.4f5218fe@posting.google.c om... To be fair Ted, you have to admit that you are cutting off a fair amount of yourself from your wife as well. You have to be willing to accept the scary parts of intimacy if you want the good parts. I understand that. The question is -- how do we move from where we are to that point? It is obviously not a simple matter of "just doing it" -- I can't bring myself to disclose those scary parts to her either in little doses or all at once.

What you mean to say is that you _won't_, not you can't. Honesty is
the only way. How many years are you going to post here that you want
happiness, but you won't divorce her, you won't be honest with her and
what should you do. You know what to do. You're a bright man.
Either decide to live with it the way it is or learn to be honest.
It's as if you're expecting someone to come up with a new formula or a
magical answer! All I can think of at this point is either move on or
stay and let it go. No one is saying that it will be easy (either
route) but it's as if you are totally torturing yourself.

And us too :-)
You want a soul mate, and maybe you'll find one, or your wife will turn into one, but I believe it's in your best interest to learn how to be happy without one. It'll put a lot less burden on the soul mate when/if you do find them. Is a soulmate someone you discover -- or someone you are given? As best I understand things, my wife *is* my soulmate -- only (and that's a big "only") she doesn't feel like it. I have met one other who felt llike my soulmate (I've talked about her before -- not "the pharmacist") but she clearly wasn't it. Ted

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> writes:
"Jingle Bells" <jinglebells5555@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:f804e152.0402022306.4f5218fe@posting.google.c om... To be fair Ted, you have to admit that you are cutting off a fair amount of yourself from your wife as well. You have to be willing to accept the scary parts of intimacy if you want the good parts. I understand that. The question is -- how do we move from where we are to that point? It is obviously not a simple matter of "just doing it" -- I can't bring myself to disclose those scary parts to her either in little doses or all at once. You want a soul mate, and maybe you'll find one, or your wife will turn into one, but I believe it's in your best interest to learn how to be happy without one. It'll put a lot less burden on the soul mate when/if you do find them. Is a soulmate someone you discover -- or someone you are given?

Neither. It is a connection you _make_.

OK, I exagerrate. You have to discover the right person, and then
forge and maintain the connection.

>> > You want a soul mate, and maybe you'll find one, or your wife will turn into one, but I believe it's in your best interest to learn how to be happy without one. It'll put a lot less burden on the soul mate when/if you do find them. Is a soulmate someone you discover -- or someone you are given?Neither. It is a connection you _make_.OK, I exagerrate. You have to discover the right person, and thenforge and maintain the connection.

I agree with Doug, with one caveat -- I'd say you meet *a* right person, not
*the* right person.

I think a lot of people go through life waiting for *the* right person (aka
"soulmate") to fall through the sky. The problem with that is two-fold, I
think. First of all, these folks go around passing up all kinds of people who
*could* become that soulmate, because they think that you don't have to
actively forge ahead and make the connection --- IOW, they tend to be passive
about it, and expect it to just happen. Secondly, I think it is a myth that,
if you find "the right person", you don't have to work on the relationship.
Thus, when there are bumps in the road, the response is, "Well, I guess they
weren't my soulmate", rather than, "What can I do to get the connection back?"

JMHO.

Sheila

"Seeker" <tedds212removethis@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<bvmehv$uouek$1@ID-123438.news.uni-berlin.de>... "Jingle Bells" <jinglebells5555@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:f804e152.0402010040.7f1b9acf@posting.google.c om... What prompted this sub-discussion was your stating that you did not want to die without having been kissed or having had a woman tell you that she wanted to make love to you. There's nothing wrong with wanting those things but they are not the key to happiness. Plenty of miserable people have had those experiences. To me the key to being happy is doing what it takes to feel good about yourself. Of course your value system plays a big role in that, but I have done some things that were mostly selfish and did result in others getting hurt that nevertheless helped me feel good about myself. Generally that's not true, but there have been instances. Again you need to figure out what's most important to you. I don' t know what's most important to me -- partly because I think some of it is something I haven't really had.

<snip> Ted

I'm going back to this because all the stuff below leads to similar
exchanges from the past, maybe this does too. You say you don't know
what's most important to you.

Well I say: MAKE A BEST GUESS

Right now you are trying to do a bunch of things that are at least
potentially in conflict. You are stuck, because when push comes to
shove you don't want to risk losing any of them.

- Follow your interpretation of God's will
- Experience real Physical and Emotional Intimacy
- Maintain/develop your self image and integrity
- Remain married to, and improve the relationship with your wife
- Maintain your relationship with the Pharmacist.

Your actual list may be different of course but how likely is it in
the long run that you can do all of the above? You need to decide
what can be removed from the list.

How important is experiencing real physical and emotional intimacy to
you? If it's number one, then remaining married to your wife is a very
risky approach to getting there. If it's really number 4 on your list
then you have to accept that you may not get it.

Make a list of what's important to you, rank or weight them, and then
get on the path that gives you the best chance of getting you where
you want to go.

whansami@aol.com (WhansaMi) writes:
> You want a soul mate, and maybe you'll find one, or your wife will > turn into one, but I believe it's in your best interest to learn how > to be happy without one. It'll put a lot less burden on the soul mate > when/if you do find them. Is a soulmate someone you discover -- or someone you are given?Neither. It is a connection you _make_.OK, I exagerrate. You have to discover the right person, and thenforge and maintain the connection. I agree with Doug, with one caveat -- I'd say you meet *a* right person, not *the* right person.

Yes, _a_ right person.

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xl1Ub.176418$nt4.774035@attbi_s51... whansami@aol.com (WhansaMi) writes:> > You want a soul mate, and maybe you'll find one, or your wife will> > turn into one, but I believe it's in your best interest to learn
how> > to be happy without one. It'll put a lot less burden on the soul
mate> > when/if you do find them.>> Is a soulmate someone you discover -- or someone you are given?Neither. It is a connection you _make_.OK, I exagerrate. You have to discover the right person, and thenforge and maintain the connection. I agree with Doug, with one caveat -- I'd say you meet *a* right person,
not *the* right person. Yes, _a_ right person.

What do you suppose the internal "testing" for a "right person" might be?

For me it was reciprocal lust!

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> writes:
What do you suppose the internal "testing" for a "right person" might be?

I don't know what it is, but I know it when I see it!
For me it was reciprocal lust!

This is insufficient for me; it is something I've experience with
people who weren't "right" for the long haul, which is what I assume
people mean by a "right person."

> > What do you suppose the internal "testing" for a "right person" might be?I don't know what it is, but I know it when I see it! For me it was reciprocal lust!This is insufficient for me; it is something I've experience withpeople who weren't "right" for the long haul, which is what I assumepeople mean by a "right person."

Yeah, I'm with Doug. I guess the things I'd look for is mutual respect, a
reasonable level of compatibility with regard to day to day living, and, a
genuine fondness for one another.

Sheila

"Jingle Bells" <jinglebells5555@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f804e152.0402032253.3227da1d@posting.google.c om...

(letters added; my ranking in parentheses)
- A. Follow your interpretation of God's will (1) - B. Experience real Physical and Emotional Intimacy (2) - C. Maintain/develop your self image and integrity (probably 3) - D. Remain married to, and improve the relationship with your wife (same
as A) - E. Maintain your relationship with the Pharmacist. (4, if decoupled from
B) Your actual list may be different of course but how likely is it in the long run that you can do all of the above? You need to decide what can be removed from the list. How important is experiencing real physical and emotional intimacy to you? If it's number one, then remaining married to your wife is a very risky approach to getting there. If it's really number 4 on your list then you have to accept that you may not get it.

But what if it's number 2? Make a list of what's important to you, rank or weight them, and then get on the path that gives you the best chance of getting you where you want to go.

Right now I see no clear path that with some confidence allows me to remain
married and satisfy my need for intimacy. But I also don't see how I can
interact comfortably and closely with other people (unless I live in a
cloistered monastery) *unless* that need is satisfied -- because as has
become obvious over these six years or so having that need remain unmet is
going to continuely distort my interactions with other people -- and not
just women. I have several close women friends; I have no close men
friends (e.g., guys I'd like to just hang out with) -- and I think that's
because until my need for physical and emotional intimacy with a woman is
met I'm simply not interested in any other kind of friendships.

Ted

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:rtllnipp18.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu... "urf" <urf@nospam.com> writes: What do you suppose the internal "testing" for a "right person" might be? I don't know what it is, but I know it when I see it! For me it was reciprocal lust! This is insufficient for me; it is something I've experience with people who weren't "right" for the long haul, which is what I assume people mean by a "right person."

Insufficient yes but a beginning. There for me the testing procedure began.
Test after test, day after day, year after year the testing continues.
I pass her and she passes me.

In our "I love you now" philosophy, it works out nicely. Our marriage
is tenuous at best. It could end at any moment.