I think in most of the cases you allude to that we are truely trying to
help. But some people (myself included) really think they know all the
answers and that everything will be all right if people would just listen to
us! We don't mean to be annoying or contradictory or argumentative, it just
seems to come out that way.

Besides, I like a little lively discourse. It keeps things interesting,
don't you think? Otherwise, it would be sort of blah around, here iMHO.

SD

Seems that a lot of you, (myself included from time to time) spend a
great amount of time and energy arguing about a bunch of nonsense. I
mean have you ever really tried to follow some of these threads? I
think we all post with the best intentions and while it is often we
don't agree with one another, I read post after post about "he said
this" and "you inferred this". I mean Christ, are we adults or is
this recess? I know this may sound strange coming from me of all
people but I personally would get a lot more out of this group if we
just stuck to the issues we're posting about and tried to get pass all
the diverse personality conflicts. I mean that's why we're all here,
isn't it? To learn from, share with, and challenge one another? Why
is always has to turn into such bitter bull**** for lack of a better
word, is beyond me.

--Brian

>Seems that a lot of you, (myself included from time to time) spend agreat amount of time and energy arguing about a bunch of nonsense. Imean have you ever really tried to follow some of these threads? Ithink we all post with the best intentions and while it is often wedon't agree with one another, I read post after post about "he saidthis" and "you inferred this". I mean Christ, are we adults or isthis recess? I know this may sound strange coming from me of allpeople but I personally would get a lot more out of this group if wejust stuck to the issues we're posting about and tried to get pass allthe diverse personality conflicts. I mean that's why we're all here,isn't it? To learn from, share with, and challenge one another? Whyis always has to turn into such bitter bull**** for lack of a betterword, is beyond me.--Brian

Well, Brian, I can only speak for myself, but, in my case, I try ignoring as
long as I can first. There are a number of people here I, to be honest, don't
think too highly of (and I'm sure I'm one of them for some people!). With the
exception of Doug (and before, rg), who, for some unknown reason, insist on
directly asking me questions and/or speaking about me, by name, but in the
third person, I keep my thoughts about people to myself --- even with regard to
the ones where it is "okay" with the majority of the people to bash, like
Andre.

Basically, I'm willing to ignore people that I think are foolish or crazy, or
just plain wrong. I figure that if the original poster has trouble with
something someone says, they can ask themselves --- they don't need me to do it
for them.

In the case with Doug this last time, I count at least a half dozen comments
and/or direct questions from him to/toward me before I responded. Yes, maybe I
shouldn't have responded nonetheless. And, I did resist, as long as he was
just directing challenges to me, but when he starts characterizing me in a
derogatory light... well, for better or worse, I couldn't let that pass.

Sheila

Brian <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> writes:
Seems that a lot of you, (myself included from time to time) spend a great amount of time and energy arguing about a bunch of nonsense. I mean have you ever really tried to follow some of these threads? I think we all post with the best intentions and while it is often we don't agree with one another, I read post after post about "he said this" and "you inferred this". I mean Christ, are we adults or is this recess? I know this may sound strange coming from me of all people but I personally would get a lot more out of this group if we just stuck to the issues we're posting about and tried to get pass all the diverse personality conflicts. I mean that's why we're all here, isn't it? To learn from, share with, and challenge one another? Why is always has to turn into such bitter bull**** for lack of a better word, is beyond me.

Me too. But I guess we're just like that sometimes.

"Brian" <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:57s710h3a7u8vdk7susb0d9esqgk06v3n2@4ax.com... Seems that a lot of you, (myself included from time to time) spend a great amount of time and energy arguing about a bunch of nonsense. I mean have you ever really tried to follow some of these threads? I think we all post with the best intentions and while it is often we don't agree with one another, I read post after post about "he said this" and "you inferred this". I mean Christ, are we adults or is this recess? I know this may sound strange coming from me of all people but I personally would get a lot more out of this group if we just stuck to the issues we're posting about and tried to get pass all the diverse personality conflicts. I mean that's why we're all here, isn't it? To learn from, share with, and challenge one another? Why is always has to turn into such bitter bull**** for lack of a better word, is beyond me.

Well, for me, part of the attraction is the debate. I'm here first and
foremost to talk about relationships and offer advice to those I think could
use it. I also like learning more about successful relationships. But I have
to be honest - I like the back and forth of argument and debate. Especially
with people whom I consider intelligent. So I usually don't back away when a
discussion turns to an opinion-dominated debate, and I almost always enjoy
it.

Many people enjoy this sort of thing.

JWB

"Brian" <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:57s710h3a7u8vdk7susb0d9esqgk06v3n2@4ax.com... Seems that a lot of you, (myself included from time to time) spend a great amount of time and energy arguing about a bunch of nonsense. I mean have you ever really tried to follow some of these threads? I think we all post with the best intentions and while it is often we don't agree with one another, I read post after post about "he said this" and "you inferred this". I mean Christ, are we adults or is this recess? I know this may sound strange coming from me of all people but I personally would get a lot more out of this group if we just stuck to the issues we're posting about and tried to get pass all the diverse personality conflicts. I mean that's why we're all here, isn't it? To learn from, share with, and challenge one another? Why is always has to turn into such bitter bull**** for lack of a better word, is beyond me. --Brian


Usenet. Like life it is most often untidy. I have kind of gotten used to
it. I try very hard not to get into "bickering" with someone else. When you
do, it says more about you than about the person who is at the but end of
your
jabs. When someone gets into bickering, perhaps they are just having a bad
day
or bad week or even more. Perhaps it is they way they are in life or they
way
they interact on usenet exclusively.

Ultimately the best weapon you have against being anoyed is your delete key.

Take what you want and ignore the rest.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you say you hadn't spent a lot of time
on Usenet before you came here? In contrast, I've spent a lot of time on
Usenet, in a lot of different forums (4 different "support" ones,
on-and-off, plus child-related and hobby/recreation related ones). I've got
to say, this group has one of the highest signal-to-noise ratios I've
encountered. There are a few odd-balls, too be sure, and some genuine
personality/value clashes, but don't you think that's pretty much
inevitable? "Take what you want, and leave the rest"--that's the best usenet
advice out there, and it plays on another important piece of advice, which
is "the only person you can control is yourself." I.e., yeah--it'd be nice
if people could tone things down, be more considerate of other posters, etc.
But you can't make them. You can, on the other hand, learn to ignore people
you disagree with or posts that touch nerves.

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:gESQb.18818$U%5.128310@attbi_s03... Brian <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> writes: Seems that a lot of you, (myself included from time to time) spend a great amount of time and energy arguing about a bunch of nonsense. I mean have you ever really tried to follow some of these threads? I think we all post with the best intentions and while it is often we don't agree with one another, I read post after post about "he said this" and "you inferred this". I mean Christ, are we adults or is this recess? I know this may sound strange coming from me of all people but I personally would get a lot more out of this group if we just stuck to the issues we're posting about and tried to get pass all the diverse personality conflicts. I mean that's why we're all here, isn't it? To learn from, share with, and challenge one another? Why is always has to turn into such bitter bull**** for lack of a better word, is beyond me. Me too. But I guess we're just like that sometimes.

Oh please Doug - you love it, and you know it ;)

On 25 Jan 2004 16:54:17 GMT, whansami@aol.com (WhansaMi) wrote:
Seems that a lot of you, (myself included from time to time) spend agreat amount of time and energy arguing about a bunch of nonsense. Imean have you ever really tried to follow some of these threads? Ithink we all post with the best intentions and while it is often wedon't agree with one another, I read post after post about "he saidthis" and "you inferred this". I mean Christ, are we adults or isthis recess? I know this may sound strange coming from me of allpeople but I personally would get a lot more out of this group if wejust stuck to the issues we're posting about and tried to get pass allthe diverse personality conflicts. I mean that's why we're all here,isn't it? To learn from, share with, and challenge one another? Whyis always has to turn into such bitter bull**** for lack of a betterword, is beyond me.--BrianWell, Brian, I can only speak for myself, but, in my case, I try ignoring aslong as I can first. There are a number of people here I, to be honest, don'tthink too highly of (and I'm sure I'm one of them for some people!). With theexception of Doug (and before, rg), who, for some unknown reason, insist ondirectly asking me questions and/or speaking about me, by name, but in thethird person, I keep my thoughts about people to myself --- even with regard tothe ones where it is "okay" with the majority of the people to bash, likeAndre.Basically, I'm willing to ignore people that I think are foolish or crazy, orjust plain wrong. I figure that if the original poster has trouble withsomething someone says, they can ask themselves --- they don't need me to do itfor them.In the case with Doug this last time, I count at least a half dozen commentsand/or direct questions from him to/toward me before I responded. Yes, maybe Ishouldn't have responded nonetheless. And, I did resist, as long as he wasjust directing challenges to me, but when he starts characterizing me in aderogatory light... well, for better or worse, I couldn't let that pass.Sheila

It's just so distracting. I think you guys are better then this.

--Brian

"JWB" <jwbspamnomore3333@excite.com> writes:
"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:gESQb.18818$U%5.128310@attbi_s03... Brian <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> writes: Seems that a lot of you, (myself included from time to time) spend a great amount of time and energy arguing about a bunch of nonsense. I mean have you ever really tried to follow some of these threads? I think we all post with the best intentions and while it is often we don't agree with one another, I read post after post about "he said this" and "you inferred this". I mean Christ, are we adults or is this recess? I know this may sound strange coming from me of all people but I personally would get a lot more out of this group if we just stuck to the issues we're posting about and tried to get pass all the diverse personality conflicts. I mean that's why we're all here, isn't it? To learn from, share with, and challenge one another? Why is always has to turn into such bitter bull**** for lack of a better word, is beyond me. Me too. But I guess we're just like that sometimes. Oh please Doug - you love it, and you know it ;)

I like the debate. I don't like the kind of hectoring "you are a
bully" that I get from some people for participating in the debate.

Nor do I even like the debate very much with certain other people (who
don't really argue issues, but just shout names).

On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 17:21:52 GMT, "JWB" <jwbspamnomore3333@excite.com>
wrote:
"Brian" <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> wrote in messagenews:57s710h3a7u8vdk7susb0d9esqgk06v3n2@4ax .com... Seems that a lot of you, (myself included from time to time) spend a great amount of time and energy arguing about a bunch of nonsense. I mean have you ever really tried to follow some of these threads? I think we all post with the best intentions and while it is often we don't agree with one another, I read post after post about "he said this" and "you inferred this". I mean Christ, are we adults or is this recess? I know this may sound strange coming from me of all people but I personally would get a lot more out of this group if we just stuck to the issues we're posting about and tried to get pass all the diverse personality conflicts. I mean that's why we're all here, isn't it? To learn from, share with, and challenge one another? Why is always has to turn into such bitter bull**** for lack of a better word, is beyond me.Well, for me, part of the attraction is the debate. I'm here first andforemost to talk about relationships and offer advice to those I think coulduse it. I also like learning more about successful relationships. But I haveto be honest - I like the back and forth of argument and debate. Especiallywith people whom I consider intelligent. So I usually don't back away when adiscussion turns to an opinion-dominated debate, and I almost always enjoyit.Many people enjoy this sort of thing.JWB

Debating an issue is one thing. Making strong opinionated comments
based conjecture only leads to misinformation and hurt feelings. In
the end, it doesn't do anyone any good. It would be nice, that before
they did this, they made sure what the other person was saying before
it leads into a 60 post argument that has no merit.

--Brian

On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 13:03:02 -0500, "DrLith" <drlith@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you say you hadn't spent a lot of timeon Usenet before you came here? In contrast, I've spent a lot of time onUsenet, in a lot of different forums (4 different "support" ones,on-and-off, plus child-related and hobby/recreation related ones). I've gotto say, this group has one of the highest signal-to-noise ratios I'veencountered. There are a few odd-balls, too be sure, and some genuinepersonality/value clashes, but don't you think that's pretty muchinevitable? "Take what you want, and leave the rest"--that's the best usenetadvice out there, and it plays on another important piece of advice, whichis "the only person you can control is yourself." I.e., yeah--it'd be niceif people could tone things down, be more considerate of other posters, etc.But you can't make them. You can, on the other hand, learn to ignore peopleyou disagree with or posts that touch nerves.

I spent time in the sense if I needed to find something out, I'd go to
the Volkswagen newsgroup, ask a question about how to fix my wife's
car, then I'd move on. It's much different then what we have here.

--Brian

On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 13:03:02 -0500, "DrLith" <drlith@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you say you hadn't spent a lot of timeon Usenet before you came here? In contrast, I've spent a lot of time onUsenet, in a lot of different forums (4 different "support" ones,on-and-off, plus child-related and hobby/recreation related ones). I've gotto say, this group has one of the highest signal-to-noise ratios I'veencountered.

I also think it is pretty good, but like Brian says it depends what
you compare it with.

My first usenet experiences were with technical support groups which
were _very_ good (at the time). Incredibly knowledgeable and helpful
people. Yeah, there was the occasional RTFM!!, but mostly when
someone had made no attempt to solve a problem before posting.

Almost all signal, and even lots of the noise was educational.

Then I discovered (as a lurker - there's too much volume for me to
keep up with as a real poster) alt.folklore.urban, which remains one
of my favorite groups, although I don't really follow it; just look
things up in their archives. A lot of signal, _and_ a lot of noise.

This group is great by the standards of alt.support. groups, and
pretty good in general, but has more noise than the technical groups
I've read.

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:uq4qujrj48.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu... "JWB" <jwbspamnomore3333@excite.com> writes: "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:gESQb.18818$U%5.128310@attbi_s03... Brian <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> writes: > Seems that a lot of you, (myself included from time to time) spend a > great amount of time and energy arguing about a bunch of nonsense.
I > mean have you ever really tried to follow some of these threads? I > think we all post with the best intentions and while it is often we > don't agree with one another, I read post after post about "he said > this" and "you inferred this". I mean Christ, are we adults or is > this recess? I know this may sound strange coming from me of all > people but I personally would get a lot more out of this group if we > just stuck to the issues we're posting about and tried to get pass
all > the diverse personality conflicts. I mean that's why we're all
here, > isn't it? To learn from, share with, and challenge one another? Why > is always has to turn into such bitter bull**** for lack of a better > word, is beyond me. Me too. But I guess we're just like that sometimes. Oh please Doug - you love it, and you know it ;) I like the debate. I don't like the kind of hectoring "you are a bully" that I get from some people for participating in the debate. Nor do I even like the debate very much with certain other people (who don't really argue issues, but just shout names).

I agree.

And you're not a bully.

"Brian" <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ip181056uhv2r6ti3svamdn43sm92r9ogt@4ax.com... On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 17:21:52 GMT, "JWB" <jwbspamnomore3333@excite.com> wrote:"Brian" <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> wrote in messagenews:57s710h3a7u8vdk7susb0d9esqgk06v3n2@4ax .com... Seems that a lot of you, (myself included from time to time) spend a great amount of time and energy arguing about a bunch of nonsense. I mean have you ever really tried to follow some of these threads? I think we all post with the best intentions and while it is often we don't agree with one another, I read post after post about "he said this" and "you inferred this". I mean Christ, are we adults or is this recess? I know this may sound strange coming from me of all people but I personally would get a lot more out of this group if we just stuck to the issues we're posting about and tried to get pass all the diverse personality conflicts. I mean that's why we're all here, isn't it? To learn from, share with, and challenge one another? Why is always has to turn into such bitter bull**** for lack of a better word, is beyond me.Well, for me, part of the attraction is the debate. I'm here first andforemost to talk about relationships and offer advice to those I think
coulduse it. I also like learning more about successful relationships. But I
haveto be honest - I like the back and forth of argument and debate.
Especiallywith people whom I consider intelligent. So I usually don't back away
when adiscussion turns to an opinion-dominated debate, and I almost always
enjoyit.Many people enjoy this sort of thing.JWB Debating an issue is one thing. Making strong opinionated comments based conjecture only leads to misinformation and hurt feelings. In the end, it doesn't do anyone any good. It would be nice, that before they did this, they made sure what the other person was saying before it leads into a 60 post argument that has no merit.

You're alluding to the recent events with you, right? See, I think you're
missing the point.

For example - You post about your marriage and your wife and the cheating
and whatnot. You then say "the cheating had nothing to do with it" (or
whatever - this is general). We (or some of us) post that we think it did,
and tell you why.

To me, that's the whole point of support. It's not to take what you say at
face value, but to get an overall feel for what is going on and offer a
perspective.

"Brian" <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:kt1810tctashn08rknvfouprueclbjelcl@4ax.com... On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 13:03:02 -0500, "DrLith" <drlith@hotmail.com> wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you say you hadn't spent a lot of
timeon Usenet before you came here? In contrast, I've spent a lot of time onUsenet, in a lot of different forums (4 different "support" ones,on-and-off, plus child-related and hobby/recreation related ones). I've
gotto say, this group has one of the highest signal-to-noise ratios I'veencountered. There are a few odd-balls, too be sure, and some genuinepersonality/value clashes, but don't you think that's pretty muchinevitable? "Take what you want, and leave the rest"--that's the best
usenetadvice out there, and it plays on another important piece of advice,
whichis "the only person you can control is yourself." I.e., yeah--it'd be
niceif people could tone things down, be more considerate of other posters,
etc.But you can't make them. You can, on the other hand, learn to ignore
peopleyou disagree with or posts that touch nerves. I spent time in the sense if I needed to find something out, I'd go to the Volkswagen newsgroup, ask a question about how to fix my wife's car, then I'd move on. It's much different then what we have here.

And if you became a regular, you'd find the dynamics were very much the
same.

"JWB" <jwbspamnomore3333@excite.com> writes:
"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:uq4qujrj48.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu... "JWB" <jwbspamnomore3333@excite.com> writes: "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:gESQb.18818$U%5.128310@attbi_s03... > Brian <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> writes: > > > Seems that a lot of you, (myself included from time to time) spend a > > great amount of time and energy arguing about a bunch of nonsense. I > > mean have you ever really tried to follow some of these threads? I > > think we all post with the best intentions and while it is often we > > don't agree with one another, I read post after post about "he said > > this" and "you inferred this". I mean Christ, are we adults or is > > this recess? I know this may sound strange coming from me of all > > people but I personally would get a lot more out of this group if we > > just stuck to the issues we're posting about and tried to get pass all > > the diverse personality conflicts. I mean that's why we're all here, > > isn't it? To learn from, share with, and challenge one another? Why > > is always has to turn into such bitter bull**** for lack of a better > > word, is beyond me. > > Me too. But I guess we're just like that sometimes. Oh please Doug - you love it, and you know it ;) I like the debate. I don't like the kind of hectoring "you are a bully" that I get from some people for participating in the debate. Nor do I even like the debate very much with certain other people (who don't really argue issues, but just shout names). I agree. And you're not a bully.

Aww. You're making me blush!

>It's much different then what we have here. --Brian

Ah! An inclusive "we".

Brian <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> writes:
On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 13:03:02 -0500, "DrLith" <drlith@hotmail.com> wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you say you hadn't spent a lot of timeon Usenet before you came here? In contrast, I've spent a lot of time onUsenet, in a lot of different forums (4 different "support" ones,on-and-off, plus child-related and hobby/recreation related ones). I've gotto say, this group has one of the highest signal-to-noise ratios I'veencountered. There are a few odd-balls, too be sure, and some genuinepersonality/value clashes, but don't you think that's pretty muchinevitable? "Take what you want, and leave the rest"--that's the best usenetadvice out there, and it plays on another important piece of advice, whichis "the only person you can control is yourself." I.e., yeah--it'd be niceif people could tone things down, be more considerate of other posters, etc.But you can't make them. You can, on the other hand, learn to ignore peopleyou disagree with or posts that touch nerves. I spent time in the sense if I needed to find something out, I'd go to the Volkswagen newsgroup, ask a question about how to fix my wife's car, then I'd move on. It's much different then what we have here.

Of course, as complicated as VWs are, relationship may be even more
complicated. And then there is our tendency to personalize issues
around relationships, which should be resisted to some extent, but
is probably inevitable.

(No disrespect intended to any VWs, none of which were harmed in the
writing of this message.)

On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 18:38:25 GMT, "JWB" <jwbspamnomore3333@excite.com>
wrote:
"Brian" <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> wrote in messagenews:ip181056uhv2r6ti3svamdn43sm92r9ogt@4ax .com... On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 17:21:52 GMT, "JWB" <jwbspamnomore3333@excite.com> wrote:"Brian" <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> wrote in messagenews:57s710h3a7u8vdk7susb0d9esqgk06v3n2@4ax .com...>>> Seems that a lot of you, (myself included from time to time) spend a> great amount of time and energy arguing about a bunch of nonsense. I> mean have you ever really tried to follow some of these threads? I> think we all post with the best intentions and while it is often we> don't agree with one another, I read post after post about "he said> this" and "you inferred this". I mean Christ, are we adults or is> this recess? I know this may sound strange coming from me of all> people but I personally would get a lot more out of this group if we> just stuck to the issues we're posting about and tried to get pass all> the diverse personality conflicts. I mean that's why we're all here,> isn't it? To learn from, share with, and challenge one another? Why> is always has to turn into such bitter bull**** for lack of a better> word, is beyond me.Well, for me, part of the attraction is the debate. I'm here first andforemost to talk about relationships and offer advice to those I thinkcoulduse it. I also like learning more about successful relationships. But Ihaveto be honest - I like the back and forth of argument and debate.Especiallywith people whom I consider intelligent. So I usually don't back awaywhen adiscussion turns to an opinion-dominated debate, and I almost alwaysenjoyit.Many people enjoy this sort of thing.JWB Debating an issue is one thing. Making strong opinionated comments based conjecture only leads to misinformation and hurt feelings. In the end, it doesn't do anyone any good. It would be nice, that before they did this, they made sure what the other person was saying before it leads into a 60 post argument that has no merit.You're alluding to the recent events with you, right? See, I think you'remissing the point.For example - You post about your marriage and your wife and the cheatingand whatnot. You then say "the cheating had nothing to do with it" (orwhatever - this is general). We (or some of us) post that we think it did,and tell you why.To me, that's the whole point of support. It's not to take what you say atface value, but to get an overall feel for what is going on and offer aperspective.
Actually, I was talking about this back and forth stuff between Doug
and Sheila.

--Brian

Brian wrote: Seems that a lot of you, (myself included from time to time) spend a great amount of time and energy arguing about a bunch of nonsense.

This is UseNet.

This is your brain on UseNet.

Any questions?


Seriously, thread drift is a reality in almost any
forum that allows fairly open-ended debate; it's not
like human beings can resist going off on tangents.
(I'm one of those who LOOKS for tangents, of course,
but don't always succeed. I also try to find tangents
that are at least slightly "relevant" to the NG.)

Additionally, AOLing (a/k/a "METOO!") is something that
we don't usually get from a post; when someone agrees
with a poster there tends to be a resounding silence.
Follow-Ups are usually either rq's for more details or
a comment "that ain't so!".

Now when dealing with a subject very close to our
hearts w/r/t "marriage" there will be as many opinions
as there are people; emotional issues are, by their
very nature, subjective.

I've made enough mistakes in the past in thinking that
people are more alike than not. I've also come to
understand that, if I have strong feelings on a subject,
pissing away my time trying to convince others is a
waste of time and effort. Likewise, if someone has an
agenda to convince me it's a lot easier to tune out.
Having an agenda here is not like being a tele-evangelist
because people who *think* enough to go on-line will get
defensive over their own situations.

I've learned-- and not in a comfortable way-- that it's
OK to express my opinions but, at the same time, I need
to avoid the semblance of "judging" someone. I don't
know everyone's situation and I'm sure that my own
descriptions of *my* situation is incomplete despite my
attempts to clarify it.

So I may not always agree with you, but that's fine; I
can't expect everyone here to agree with me all that
much either.

Part of the group is that it's an opportunity to get
new questions; when I was a Systems Analyst I learned
that having a good question is more valuable than an
answer: a question, in context, will bring more than
one possible answer to the recipient, and none of these
answers will probably line up closely to the questioners
idea of an answer.

I suspect that I won't be looking for followups on this
thread since it'll probably trigger more heat than light.
As if my post didn't add to the heat.

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup@softhome.net | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/

"Brian" <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:57s710h3a7u8vdk7susb0d9esqgk06v3n2@4ax.com... Seems that a lot of you, (myself included from time to time) spend a great amount of time and energy arguing about a bunch of nonsense. I mean have you ever really tried to follow some of these threads? I think we all post with the best intentions and while it is often we don't agree with one another, I read post after post about "he said this" and "you inferred this". I mean Christ, are we adults or is this recess? I know this may sound strange coming from me of all people but I personally would get a lot more out of this group if we just stuck to the issues we're posting about and tried to get pass all the diverse personality conflicts. I mean that's why we're all here, isn't it? To learn from, share with, and challenge one another? Why is always has to turn into such bitter bull**** for lack of a better word, is beyond me. --Brian

I do not mind a debate, event being the brunt of one as the OP on a hot
topic. What confuses me is where people get their bigger picture ideas when
there is no evidence. I guess the inference thing you mentioned. I got told
a bunch of stuff in one of my threads about what I wanted and what I was and
wasn't willing to do that made me say -- hey, did I say that? Where did that
come from?

People, and you and I are totally included in this, have prejuduices and
preconceived notions. One will sometimes hear a small part of a story, then
full in the rest whether true or false, from personal experiences that the
poster may not share.

Bugs me. But I am not the bitter type. If someone wants to read me wrong,
they may feel free as far as I am concerned. I can leave it alone.

S

On 25 Jan 2004 11:29:46 -0800, Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com>
wrote:
Brian <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> writes: On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 13:03:02 -0500, "DrLith" <drlith@hotmail.com> wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you say you hadn't spent a lot of timeon Usenet before you came here? In contrast, I've spent a lot of time onUsenet, in a lot of different forums (4 different "support" ones,on-and-off, plus child-related and hobby/recreation related ones). I've gotto say, this group has one of the highest signal-to-noise ratios I'veencountered. There are a few odd-balls, too be sure, and some genuinepersonality/value clashes, but don't you think that's pretty muchinevitable? "Take what you want, and leave the rest"--that's the best usenetadvice out there, and it plays on another important piece of advice, whichis "the only person you can control is yourself." I.e., yeah--it'd be niceif people could tone things down, be more considerate of other posters, etc.But you can't make them. You can, on the other hand, learn to ignore peopleyou disagree with or posts that touch nerves. I spent time in the sense if I needed to find something out, I'd go to the Volkswagen newsgroup, ask a question about how to fix my wife's car, then I'd move on. It's much different then what we have here.Of course, as complicated as VWs are, relationship may be even morecomplicated. And then there is our tendency to personalize issuesaround relationships, which should be resisted to some extent, butis probably inevitable.(No disrespect intended to any VWs, none of which were harmed in thewriting of this message.)

Holy **** that was funny. Is that what we've come to on here?

--Brian

Stephanie and Tim wrote:
I do not mind a debate, event being the brunt of one as the OP on a hot topic.

Yes, debates can be fun sometimes. I lose interest when
substance leaves the discussion, and "debate" becomes merely
trying to say the last word. For some it's almost impossible
to leave an argument that obviously is not going anywhere
but in circles! At times, I have to pinch myself not to press
that "reply" button "just one last time"!!
What confuses me is where people get their bigger picture ideas when there is no evidence. I guess the inference thing you mentioned. I got told a bunch of stuff in one of my threads about what I wanted and what I was and wasn't willing to do that made me say -- hey, did I say that? Where did that come from?

As one guilty party in that particular thread, I agree with you.
The newsgroup has a history with regular posters. I used to
be an occasional visitor here, and probably will be again (right
now I have time and regularly follow it, though not as thoroughly
as some others). In those days I couldn't understand
why people would say much of what they did to each other!
Not knowing the personalities and history I was only focused on
the "topic" of a thread, and found many people totally unreasonable
in their posts. Gradually I noticed that the threads are only vehicles
for people who have had a long background with each other to
bring their issues up. Many times when a new person posts something
others who participate talk to each other, instead of just addressing
the op. And that's where you get all these side tracked stuff that
appear totally absurd to the op!

Brian wrote: Seems that a lot of you, (myself included from time to time) spend a great amount of time and energy arguing about a bunch of nonsense. I mean have you ever really tried to follow some of these threads?

Some I'm not interested in do seem to go on and on but there are probably
threads I'm involved with sometimes that other posters find tedious. We
aren't always interested in the same things. I seldom argue a point more
than two or three times because, 1) I'm not usually trying to do more than
clarify my position, rather than change anyone's mind and 2) I just don't
have the time.
I think we all post with the best intentions and while it is often we don't agree with one another, I read post after post about "he said this" and "you inferred this". I mean Christ, are we adults or is this recess? I know this may sound strange coming from me of all people but I personally would get a lot more out of this group if we just stuck to the issues we're posting about and tried to get pass all the diverse personality conflicts. I mean that's why we're all here, isn't it? To learn from, share with, and challenge one another? Why is always has to turn into such bitter bull**** for lack of a better word, is beyond me.

It just the way usenet works, Brian. This group really doesn't suffer a
great deal from personality conflicts compared to other groups and even when
it does the posts aren't all that unpleasant. They're easy enough to skip,
too, if you can't see anything useful in them.

Oftentimes I'll read a thread like that just because it ends up being quite
revealing about the people involved and it helps me to understand their
viewpoint on other subjects. In some ways I feel I know some of the regular
posters here better, or at a deeper lever, than good friends I've known for
years. It fascinates me when posters whom I like and respect get up each
others' noses!

Tai

Jack C Lipton wrote:
Part of the group is that it's an opportunity to get new questions; when I was a Systems Analyst I learned that having a good question is more valuable than an answer: a question, in context, will bring more than one possible answer to the recipient, and none of these answers will probably line up closely to the questioners idea of an answer.

Yes (or should that be "me too").

:o)

Tai
(who would have normally left this to the "resounding silence" of
agreement.)

Shashay Doofray wrote: I think in most of the cases you allude to that we are truely trying to help. But some people (myself included) really think they know all the answers and that everything will be all right if people would just listen to us! We don't mean to be annoying or contradictory or argumentative, it just seems to come out that way. Besides, I like a little lively discourse. It keeps things interesting, don't you think? Otherwise, it would be sort of blah around, here iMHO. SD

Besides which, we do have a pretty opinionated bunch here! But that's ok,
for the most part. :-) As you say, it rarely gets dull around here, and
we can sure speak our mind in here.

Brian <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<57s710h3a7u8vdk7susb0d9esqgk06v3n2@4ax.com>... Seems that a lot of you, (myself included from time to time) spend a great amount of time and energy arguing about a bunch of nonsense. I mean have you ever really tried to follow some of these threads? I think we all post with the best intentions and while it is often we don't agree with one another, I read post after post about "he said this" and "you inferred this". I mean Christ, are we adults or is this recess? I know this may sound strange coming from me of all people but I personally would get a lot more out of this group if we just stuck to the issues we're posting about and tried to get pass all the diverse personality conflicts. I mean that's why we're all here, isn't it? To learn from, share with, and challenge one another? Why is always has to turn into such bitter bull**** for lack of a better word, is beyond me. --Brian

For me the dynamics of the different personalities in this group are
like a laboratory for real-life personal conflicts. You all know I'm a
Keirsey fan. Often I sit back and watch the bickering from the Keirsey
perspective: ah, there goes a guardian clashing with an idealist... or
a rational digging in his feet ... when you approach it all from a
Keirsey perspective, you begin to understand why people react the way
they do, why they come across defensive when certain hot buttons have
been pushed.

I have been on Usenet a long time. For me it's helped me grow in my
understanding that everyone is different. I am a more effective person
in real life because of the squabbles on Usenet. I understand people
who are unlike myself better now. I've learned that when someone is
getting under my skin and I'm compelled to bicker with them, defend
myself, or try to convince them of my side of the argument, usually
that's a sign that they represent an area I need to work on myself.

For example, when I first came to ASD, Andre and a few other posters
used to drive me batty. We'd go round and round all the time... and
this was back before he got on his anti-feminist soapbox! Eventually
it dawned on me why he and the other posters got on my nerves so much:
they were very much like my ex. After that, I tried hard to understand
them (not necessarily agree, just understand). The process helped me
to understand my ex better, and practice better ways of communicating
with him.

And if Sheila is reading this, it took me a long while to "get" Doug.
I used to find him absolutely maddening (sorry Doug!). Now I think I
understand him a bit better, but when you two get into your circles, I
tend to just drone it out. Doug's a good guy, IMHO, and very often he
posts a reply that stuns me in how perfect it is.

jen

"DrLith" <drlith@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<bv103b$mfbo0$1@ID-132000.news.uni-berlin.de>... Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you say you hadn't spent a lot of time on Usenet before you came here? In contrast, I've spent a lot of time on Usenet, in a lot of different forums (4 different "support" ones, on-and-off, plus child-related and hobby/recreation related ones). I've got to say, this group has one of the highest signal-to-noise ratios I've encountered. There are a few odd-balls, too be sure, and some genuine personality/value clashes, but don't you think that's pretty much inevitable? "Take what you want, and leave the rest"--that's the best usenet advice out there, and it plays on another important piece of advice, which is "the only person you can control is yourself." I.e., yeah--it'd be nice if people could tone things down, be more considerate of other posters, etc. But you can't make them. You can, on the other hand, learn to ignore people you disagree with or posts that touch nerves.

I think if we were all in a room together, or all lived in the same
town, we'd be a lot more considerate and polite to each other.

I read something once that theorized that people in small towns are
nicer and friendlier because there's a greater chance that they might
have to rely on their neighbors in the future. "Always be nice because
you never know when you'll have to cash in on it and ask a favor." In
contrast, people in cities tend to be a lot less friendly and polite
because they don't feel as connected and reliant on their neighbors,
who are strangers.

On Usenet, you have the whole anonymity angle. Yes, it is a support
group, but how likely is it that any of us will ever meet in person,
or need to cash in a favor? I think because it is unlikely, we feel
freer to be inconsiderate to each other from time to time.

jen

On 26 Jan 2004 04:58:32 -0800, shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny)
wrote:
Brian <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<57s710h3a7u8vdk7susb0d9esqgk06v3n2@4ax.com>... Seems that a lot of you, (myself included from time to time) spend a great amount of time and energy arguing about a bunch of nonsense. I mean have you ever really tried to follow some of these threads? I think we all post with the best intentions and while it is often we don't agree with one another, I read post after post about "he said this" and "you inferred this". I mean Christ, are we adults or is this recess? I know this may sound strange coming from me of all people but I personally would get a lot more out of this group if we just stuck to the issues we're posting about and tried to get pass all the diverse personality conflicts. I mean that's why we're all here, isn't it? To learn from, share with, and challenge one another? Why is always has to turn into such bitter bull**** for lack of a better word, is beyond me. --BrianFor me the dynamics of the different personalities in this group arelike a laboratory for real-life personal conflicts. You all know I'm aKeirsey fan. Often I sit back and watch the bickering from the Keirseyperspective: ah, there goes a guardian clashing with an idealist... ora rational digging in his feet ... when you approach it all from aKeirsey perspective, you begin to understand why people react the waythey do, why they come across defensive when certain hot buttons havebeen pushed.I have been on Usenet a long time. For me it's helped me grow in myunderstanding that everyone is different. I am a more effective personin real life because of the squabbles on Usenet. I understand peoplewho are unlike myself better now. I've learned that when someone isgetting under my skin and I'm compelled to bicker with them, defendmyself, or try to convince them of my side of the argument, usuallythat's a sign that they represent an area I need to work on myself.For example, when I first came to ASD, Andre and a few other postersused to drive me batty. We'd go round and round all the time... andthis was back before he got on his anti-feminist soapbox! Eventuallyit dawned on me why he and the other posters got on my nerves so much:they were very much like my ex. After that, I tried hard to understandthem (not necessarily agree, just understand). The process helped meto understand my ex better, and practice better ways of communicatingwith him.And if Sheila is reading this, it took me a long while to "get" Doug.I used to find him absolutely maddening (sorry Doug!). Now I think Iunderstand him a bit better, but when you two get into your circles, Itend to just drone it out. Doug's a good guy, IMHO, and very often heposts a reply that stuns me in how perfect it is.jen


I'm not sure why you and Sheila think that way of Doug. I've never
found him anything more then patient and understanding, and yes, even
when he hasn't agreed with me. In the past he's always seemed to be
fair and willing to explore all facets of a topic before shooting off
at the mouth with his opinions. I only wish I could be more like
that. I tend to start typing before I really know what I'm going to
say.

--Brian

dg411@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Andre Lieven) writes:
I'd still like to hear him apologise for *lying* about my not answering the cheating question, when in fact, I d8d, and he merely... didn't like the answer.

I couldn't find it Andre. The question was "why do people cheat." I
couldn't find anyplace where you answered the question.

I can find lots of places where you say "people shouldn't cheat" or
"people should get divorced first" and so on. And I can find places
where you basically answer it by not answering: "people cheat because
they're bad."

But if you really did answer, and my apology means anything to you
(which suprises me very much given the usual character of your
addresses to me) then I apologize.

shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) writes:
And if Sheila is reading this, it took me a long while to "get" Doug. I used to find him absolutely maddening (sorry Doug!). Now I think I understand him a bit better, but when you two get into your circles, I tend to just drone it out. Doug's a good guy, IMHO, and very often he posts a reply that stuns me in how perfect it is.

Thank you (I think!). I think I do have my occasional moments of
lucidity even if I say so myself.

>shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) writes: And if Sheila is reading this, it took me a long while to "get" Doug. I used to find him absolutely maddening (sorry Doug!). Now I think I understand him a bit better, but when you two get into your circles, I tend to just drone it out. Doug's a good guy, IMHO, and very often he posts a reply that stuns me in how perfect it is.Thank you (I think!). I think I do have my occasional moments oflucidity even if I say so myself.

I'm addressing this to both Jen and Doug, because I don't want to talk about
him in the third person. :-)

Doug, I agree with Jen. Some, even a lot of the ideas you have are, IMO, quite
valid. In fact, I probably agree with you as often as not.

My problem is not in your ideas. My problem is in how you relate to me. (I
will only speak about how I percieve our relationship; whether or not it others
have similar perceptions, I can't say). I'll not go into it again, because
I've really said my piece about this. Suffice it to say that I may not
disagree with your message, but I have real problems with the way you present
it, and this is why I think it is in my --- and the group's-- best interest for
me to avoid discussing things with you.

Sheila

Doug Anderson (ethelthelog@yahoo.com) writes: dg411@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Andre Lieven) writes: I'd still like to hear him apologise for *lying* about my not answering the cheating question, when in fact, I did, and he merely... didn't like the answer. I couldn't find it Andre. The question was "why do people cheat." I couldn't find anyplace where you answered the question.

Then, you're willfully blind, or illiterate.

AS I said it *several times*, to whit: That people who can do such
things are using a sufficiently different Life Value System, that
theirs and people's whose LVS absolutely proscribes such, cannot
effectively speak to each other.
I can find lots of places where you say "people shouldn't cheat" or "people should get divorced first" and so on. And I can find places where you basically answer it by not answering: "people cheat because they're bad."

I said that, *too*...
But if you really did answer, and my apology means anything to you (which suprises me very much given the usual character of your addresses to me) then I apologize.

Then, re-read where *I said exactly what I just RE-stated*...

Its good to read a whole post, before kicking in knee jerking mode...

Also, just because I'm tough with someoneon Usenet, doesn't mean
" I hate them "...

Theres folks on other groups where we had some major and heated
disagreements, and we still get along, outside of them there, quite
well.

That because I tend to focus on the topics, where possible.

Andre

--
" I'm a man... But, I can change... If I have to... I guess. "
The Man Prayer, Red Green.

dg411@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Andre Lieven) writes:
Doug Anderson (ethelthelog@yahoo.com) writes: dg411@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Andre Lieven) writes: I'd still like to hear him apologise for *lying* about my not answering the cheating question, when in fact, I did, and he merely... didn't like the answer. I couldn't find it Andre. The question was "why do people cheat." I couldn't find anyplace where you answered the question. Then, you're willfully blind, or illiterate.

And you are asking for an apology from _me_? AS I said it *several times*, to whit: That people who can do such things are using a sufficiently different Life Value System, that theirs and people's whose LVS absolutely proscribes such, cannot effectively speak to each other.

OK. That doesn't seem like an answer at all to me, but whatever.

(rest of ad hominems snipped).

Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<uLaRb.26836$U%5.179649@attbi_s03>... shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) writes: And if Sheila is reading this, it took me a long while to "get" Doug. I used to find him absolutely maddening (sorry Doug!). Now I think I understand him a bit better, but when you two get into your circles, I tend to just drone it out. Doug's a good guy, IMHO, and very often he posts a reply that stuns me in how perfect it is. Thank you (I think!). I think I do have my occasional moments of lucidity even if I say so myself.

I agree too that it took me a while to "get" Doug and periodically I'm
not sure that I really do. I did realize that he pushed my buttons
(and still has the ability if I allow it). I also realized why he
pushed my buttons. He has the same ability and tendency that my
husband has. He is extraoridinary at making points and remembering
details and providing annecdotes and back up material. I on the other
hand, respond to something that touches me for some reason and respond
more emotionally than providing data and backup materials.

I truly hate getting into arguments with folks although I will stand
my ground when I feel strongly about something. I will also easily
say that I'm wrong and apologize to a person when appropriate.

I have had a few run arounds with several folks in here and they ended
up just fine. I have found that using private email has helped those
situations. I also have found that after a while, for some posters,
it's just not worth responding to posts.

Brian...I have really found that those who really can get to me, get
to me for a reason. And that's for me to figure out why rather than
lashing out. I have seen you lash out at posters and have wondered
from time to time if you lash out at your wife that way.

You might not like some of the responses you get, but I think it's
important to respect the responses if you're looking for insight.
Otherwise, why ask? I am teaching my 9 year old that she should not
ask a question unless she is prepared for the honest truth. And I
also teach her not to say certain things to people unless she is asked
for her opinion.(LIke, your dress is ugly). People who ask, really
have to be prepared for anything...otherwise don't ask.

Brian <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> wrote:
I know this may sound strange coming from me of all people but I personally would get a lot more out of this group if we just stuck to the issues we're posting about and tried to get pass all the diverse personality conflicts. I mean that's why we're all here, isn't it? To learn from, share with, and challenge one another? Why is always has to turn into such bitter bull**** for lack of a better word, is beyond me.

Usenet has taught me some really good lessons. I have grown a much
thicker skin. I have considered points of view that woul not have
otherwise occured to me. And, most relevant to what you are saying
here, I have learned, once again, that you really *can't* control other
people. Only yourself. You can't stop people from arguing the same
point over and over in endless threads. You can't stop people from
making insulting assumptions. You can't make people talk about the
issues you want to talk about. Believe me, I've tried to affect these
changes!

What you *can* do is elect not to read those threads, kill-file those
insulting posters, start threads about the topics you are interested in.
And so we see that usenet is very similar to marriage. You can only
change yourself and the way you responsd to things. Your spouse then
decides whether and how to change herself in response.

Or, as the AA slogan says "Don't push the river. Let it flow by
itself."

Doug Anderson (ethelthelog@yahoo.com) writes: dg411@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Andre Lieven) writes: Doug Anderson (ethelthelog@yahoo.com) writes: dg411@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Andre Lieven) writes:> I'd still like to hear him apologise for *lying* about my not answering> the cheating question, when in fact, I did, and he merely... didn't> like the answer. I couldn't find it Andre. The question was "why do people cheat." I couldn't find anyplace where you answered the question. Then, you're willfully blind, or illiterate. And you are asking for an apology from _me_?

Absolutely ! *I'm not the one* who DENIED that a *given answer*, was
not given...

So, you either *can't read*, or *lie about it*...
AS I said it *several times*, to whit: That people who can do such things are using a sufficiently different Life Value System, that theirs and people's whose LVS absolutely proscribes such, cannot effectively speak to each other. OK. That doesn't seem like an answer at all to me, but whatever.

It IS an answer. Free Clue: Answers *that you don't like*, are still
answers...
(rest of ad hominems snipped).

Translation: " Once again, I snip away what *I cannot answer or
refute* ".

<laughs>

Andre

--
" I'm a man... But, I can change... If I have to... I guess. "
The Man Prayer, Red Green.

dg411@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Andre Lieven) writes:
Doug Anderson (ethelthelog@yahoo.com) writes: dg411@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Andre Lieven) writes: Doug Anderson (ethelthelog@yahoo.com) writes: > dg411@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Andre Lieven) writes: > >> I'd still like to hear him apologise for *lying* about my not answering >> the cheating question, when in fact, I did, and he merely... didn't >> like the answer. > > I couldn't find it Andre. The question was "why do people cheat." I > couldn't find anyplace where you answered the question. Then, you're willfully blind, or illiterate. And you are asking for an apology from _me_? Absolutely ! *I'm not the one* who DENIED that a *given answer*, was not given...

So if in a thread, I assert you haven't answered a question, I owe
you an apology. Even if my opinion remains that you haven't answered
the question.

But no apology is due to me for the endless stream of ad hominem
insults that you type about me?

A strange "Life Value System" you use.

dg411@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Andre Lieven) writes:
Doug Anderson (ethelthelog@yahoo.com) writes:

(long stream of invective and hostile innuendo from Andre snipped)
A strange "Life Value System" you use. You MS-spelled " consistant "...

Actually, you misspelled it.

And for the record, I didn't call you a liar, though you've called
me a liar, insinuated that I'm immoral, and insulted me in various
other ways (just in this thread).

Doug Anderson (ethelthelog@yahoo.com) writes: dg411@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Andre Lieven) writes: Doug Anderson (ethelthelog@yahoo.com) writes: (long stream of invective and hostile innuendo from Andre snipped)

.... Because Doug *can't* deal with it/handle it/refute *any* of it...

My points... stand.
A strange "Life Value System" you use. You MS-spelled " consistant "... Actually, you misspelled it.

Oooh, typo flames, the last refuge of the scoundrels...
And for the record, I didn't call you a liar,

Claiming that I didn't offer an answer, *when I did*, is calling
me a liar. Not in any open or *honest* manner, but I've ceased
to expect any honesty fromn you...
though you've called me a liar, insinuated that I'm immoral, and insulted me

Pointing outm *what you said*, if its an " insult ", is one
committed by... *you and your statements*.
in various other ways (just in this thread).

Non sequitur.

Andre


--
" I'm a man... But, I can change... If I have to... I guess. "
The Man Prayer, Red Green.

caren50@msn.com (Caren) wrote in message news:<3754f0b3.0401261027.65df2b15@posting.google.com>... Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<uLaRb.26836$U%5.179649@attbi_s03>... shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) writes: And if Sheila is reading this, it took me a long while to "get" Doug. I used to find him absolutely maddening (sorry Doug!). Now I think I understand him a bit better, but when you two get into your circles, I tend to just drone it out. Doug's a good guy, IMHO, and very often he posts a reply that stuns me in how perfect it is. Thank you (I think!). I think I do have my occasional moments of lucidity even if I say so myself. I agree too that it took me a while to "get" Doug and periodically I'm not sure that I really do. I did realize that he pushed my buttons (and still has the ability if I allow it). I also realized why he pushed my buttons. He has the same ability and tendency that my husband has. He is extraoridinary at making points and remembering details and providing annecdotes and back up material. I on the other hand, respond to something that touches me for some reason and respond more emotionally than providing data and backup materials.

Exactly!

It can be really good to have someone around who's like that; my
fiance, in fact, has an amazing head for facts & figures... I swear,
it's like having Google... just ask a question and he'll have the
answer.

I'm involved right now in a work situation that is kinda similar. I
came up with a proposal that everyone liked - it was big on the "grand
sweeping idea and vision" without much attention to details of how to
implement it. That's me. That's what I get paid the big bucks for. :-)

Then I went to present it to the people who would actually have to
implement it. They are detail people and experts in what they do. I
came away from that meeting feeling utterly attacked by them - they
poked numerous holes in my proposal and kept telling me why we "can't"
do this or that. They drove me batty, concentrating on nitty-gritty
details without looking at the bigger picture, or so I thought. I felt
very frustrated and my knee-jerk reaction was to get defensive (though
I kept it in check in front of them).

Later I was talking to my boss and moaning about how they attacked me,
how the plan would never work without their buy-in, obviously they
hated the idea so why bother to fight an uphill battle, why did they
have to be so nit picky.. ?

He surprised me with a completely different view of how the meeting
went: on the contrary, he thought it went very well and that I *did*
have their support; otherwise they wouldn't be poking holes into the
proposal! They wouldn't bother! He viewed what I saw as "attacks" as a
sign of respect for the overall idea, and that they were already one
step ahead, diving into the details to explore what could work and how
to make the plan "poke-proof" before we presented it to the higher
ups.

I think Doug is like that, too, and when I've misread him, it's
because of my own emotional reaction.

Anyway, if I owned my own company, I would definetly want a whole team
of Doug-types on board.

jen

caren50@msn.com (Caren) writes:
Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<uLaRb.26836$U%5.179649@attbi_s03>... shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) writes: And if Sheila is reading this, it took me a long while to "get" Doug. I used to find him absolutely maddening (sorry Doug!). Now I think I understand him a bit better, but when you two get into your circles, I tend to just drone it out. Doug's a good guy, IMHO, and very often he posts a reply that stuns me in how perfect it is. Thank you (I think!). I think I do have my occasional moments of lucidity even if I say so myself. I agree too that it took me a while to "get" Doug and periodically I'm not sure that I really do. I did realize that he pushed my buttons (and still has the ability if I allow it). I also realized why he pushed my buttons. He has the same ability and tendency that my husband has. He is extraoridinary at making points and remembering details and providing annecdotes and back up material. I on the other hand, respond to something that touches me for some reason and respond more emotionally than providing data and backup materials.

I respond emotionally too, but then (being the sort of Kiersey LMNOP
that I am) I also ask myself "is this an emotional response" (which is
OK), or "is it based on facts or recollections." Of course the two
possibilities are not mutually exclusive, and they are both OK, but I
do (try) to distinguish between them.

As far as memories for details (mine is OK, but not world-class),
there is a great book by A.K. Luria about a man with a photographic
memory. The impression one receives from this book is that because
this man's memory was so developed he never actually developed any
ability to generalize from examples, since he never needed to. Of
course this eventually becomes a problem.
I truly hate getting into arguments with folks although I will stand my ground when I feel strongly about something. I will also easily say that I'm wrong and apologize to a person when appropriate.

Both true about you (that you'll stand your ground, and that you'll
apologize) and both fine qualities in a human being!
I have had a few run arounds with several folks in here and they ended up just fine. I have found that using private email has helped those situations. I also have found that after a while, for some posters, it's just not worth responding to posts. Brian...I have really found that those who really can get to me, get to me for a reason. And that's for me to figure out why rather than lashing out. I have seen you lash out at posters and have wondered from time to time if you lash out at your wife that way. You might not like some of the responses you get, but I think it's important to respect the responses if you're looking for insight. Otherwise, why ask? I am teaching my 9 year old that she should not ask a question unless she is prepared for the honest truth. And I also teach her not to say certain things to people unless she is asked for her opinion.(LIke, your dress is ugly). People who ask, really have to be prepared for anything...otherwise don't ask.

Yeah. One of the things I _haven't_ had to teach my daughter is "if
you don't want to know the answer, don't ask the question." She
learned that herself just fine. My son, however, _still_ doesn't get
that!

shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) writes:
Later I was talking to my boss and moaning about how they attacked me, how the plan would never work without their buy-in, obviously they hated the idea so why bother to fight an uphill battle, why did they have to be so nit picky.. ? He surprised me with a completely different view of how the meeting went: on the contrary, he thought it went very well and that I *did* have their support; otherwise they wouldn't be poking holes into the proposal!

Boy. I've had exactly that same experience both from the point of
view of your boss (seeing someone with a good idea overwhelmed with
questions about details and being the one to say "look, that was a
really productive meeting; now we know how to get this into much
better shape") and being the person overwhelmend with questions about
details.

whansami@aol.com (WhansaMi) writes:
shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) writes: And if Sheila is reading this, it took me a long while to "get" Doug. I used to find him absolutely maddening (sorry Doug!). Now I think I understand him a bit better, but when you two get into your circles, I tend to just drone it out. Doug's a good guy, IMHO, and very often he posts a reply that stuns me in how perfect it is.Thank you (I think!). I think I do have my occasional moments oflucidity even if I say so myself. I'm addressing this to both Jen and Doug, because I don't want to talk about him in the third person. :-) Doug, I agree with Jen. Some, even a lot of the ideas you have are, IMO, quite valid. In fact, I probably agree with you as often as not.

Thank you. I feel likewise about you, and in fact agree with you more
often than not.
My problem is not in your ideas. My problem is in how you relate to me. (I will only speak about how I percieve our relationship; whether or not it others have similar perceptions, I can't say). I'll not go into it again, because I've really said my piece about this. Suffice it to say that I may not disagree with your message, but I have real problems with the way you present it, and this is why I think it is in my --- and the group's-- best interest for me to avoid discussing things with you.

I thought your non-response to my previous response to you meant you
were done. One thing you and I have in common is that we're both
stubborn, and if you want to start down this road again, I'm likely to
follow.

But I suggest we try to keep it to the one thread so everyone else can
avert their eyes from the train-wreck!

I'm sorry you percieve me as relating to you badly. My perception is
that I relate to you the same way that I relate to everyone else,
which certainly has its flaws, but I don't perceive that I'm singling
out you. (Excepting when we're in the middle of a pissing match; and
even then I think I relate to you the same way that I relate to other
people on this forum who I respect and have gotten into heated debate
with. And I don't think either of us have anything to be proud of in
the way we've related to each other when things got heated.)

My perception is that you treat me differently from other posters
here. For example, Ellie received an apology when she indicated that
she felt like you were implying that trying to answer "why" was
"excusing." I received an "I resent ..."

Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<oBkRb.160683$na.272664@attbi_s04>... shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) writes: Later I was talking to my boss and moaning about how they attacked me, how the plan would never work without their buy-in, obviously they hated the idea so why bother to fight an uphill battle, why did they have to be so nit picky.. ? He surprised me with a completely different view of how the meeting went: on the contrary, he thought it went very well and that I *did* have their support; otherwise they wouldn't be poking holes into the proposal! Boy. I've had exactly that same experience both from the point of view of your boss (seeing someone with a good idea overwhelmed with questions about details and being the one to say "look, that was a really productive meeting; now we know how to get this into much better shape") and being the person overwhelmend with questions about details.

Yep, it's interesting how one's own vulnerable ego can warp one's
perception. On the flip side, once I quelled my own shaky insecure
thoughts, I started to sense that this other team was likewise feeling
a bit insecure, panicking over the thought of all the work the project
is going to land on their shoulders, if we proceed (and it looks like
we will).

Sometimes people can use nit-picking as a way to avoid addressing
other things going on in their lives. Doug, I hope you don't mind this
observation (which could be completely off mark!) but sometimes I get
the impression that you might be doing this. I get the sense that
something might be going on in your home or professional life that
you'd rather avoid. IOW, when you start nit-picking here, perhaps you
are procrastinating about some other big project on your plate? I know
I am apt to spend hours on usenet when I'm procrastinating about
something IRL.

jen

Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<wykRb.160676$na.272735@attbi_s04>...

As far as memories for details (mine is OK, but not world-class), there is a great book by A.K. Luria about a man with a photographic memory. The impression one receives from this book is that because this man's memory was so developed he never actually developed any ability to generalize from examples, since he never needed to. Of course this eventually becomes a problem.

Heh. I used to have a photographic memory, back in high school and
college. When taking tests, I could close my eyes and picture the page
where the answer lay. Lost this ability somewhere along the way! I
can't even remember my work number anymore. It's pathetic how bad my
memory is these days.

jen

shinypenny wrote: Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<wykRb.160676$na.272735@attbi_s04>... As far as memories for details (mine is OK, but not world-class), there is a great book by A.K. Luria about a man with a photographic memory. The impression one receives from this book is that because this man's memory was so developed he never actually developed any ability to generalize from examples, since he never needed to. Of course this eventually becomes a problem. Heh. I used to have a photographic memory, back in high school and college. When taking tests, I could close my eyes and picture the page where the answer lay. Lost this ability somewhere along the way! I can't even remember my work number anymore. It's pathetic how bad my memory is these days. jen

If you can't remember your work number, then there must be hope for some of us
oldies even yet! I don't feel so bad now. :-)

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0401270916.71da0862@posting.google.c om... Heh. I used to have a photographic memory, back in high school and college. When taking tests, I could close my eyes and picture the page where the answer lay. Lost this ability somewhere along the way! I can't even remember my work number anymore. It's pathetic how bad my memory is these days.

Didn't they tell you? During pregnancy, your body cannibalizes brain cells
to create the placenta.

DrLith wrote: "shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c8cb5319.0401270916.71da0862@posting.google.c om... Heh. I used to have a photographic memory, back in high school and college. When taking tests, I could close my eyes and picture the page where the answer lay. Lost this ability somewhere along the way! I can't even remember my work number anymore. It's pathetic how bad my memory is these days. Didn't they tell you? During pregnancy, your body cannibalizes brain cells to create the placenta.

So......is that why men are generally smarter than women, then?

"Bill in Co." <LostInTime@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:0vxRb.29810$zj7.17621@newsread1.news.pas.eart hlink.net... DrLith wrote: "shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c8cb5319.0401270916.71da0862@posting.google.c om... Heh. I used to have a photographic memory, back in high school and college. When taking tests, I could close my eyes and picture the page where the answer lay. Lost this ability somewhere along the way! I can't even remember my work number anymore. It's pathetic how bad my memory is these days. Didn't they tell you? During pregnancy, your body cannibalizes brain
cells to create the placenta. So......is that why men are generally smarter than women, then?

Multiparous women, anyhow. Nullipars are smarter than men, statistically.

DrLith wrote: "Bill in Co." <LostInTime@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:0vxRb.29810$zj7.17621@newsread1.news.pas.eart hlink.net... DrLith wrote: "shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c8cb5319.0401270916.71da0862@posting.google.c om...> Heh. I used to have a photographic memory, back in high school and> college. When taking tests, I could close my eyes and picture the page> where the answer lay. Lost this ability somewhere along the way! I> can't even remember my work number anymore. It's pathetic how bad my> memory is these days. Didn't they tell you? During pregnancy, your body cannibalizes brain cells to create the placenta. So......is that why men are generally smarter than women, then? Multiparous women, anyhow. Nullipars are smarter than men, statistically.

LOL!

But on a more serious note, was it someone in here (or was it in ASD?) that
said that were more male genius's in the world, simply due to there being a
wider spread in the genetic chromosomic variations for the male species, but I
don't know enough biology (or or physiology) to know. I think someone here
in ASM said this.

shinypenny wrote: Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<wykRb.160676$na.272735@attbi_s04>... As far as memories for details (mine is OK, but not world-class), there is a great book by A.K. Luria about a man with a photographic memory. The impression one receives from this book is that because this man's memory was so developed he never actually developed any ability to generalize from examples, since he never needed to. Of course this eventually becomes a problem. Heh. I used to have a photographic memory, back in high school and college. When taking tests, I could close my eyes and picture the page where the answer lay. Lost this ability somewhere along the way! I can't even remember my work number anymore. It's pathetic how bad my memory is these days. jen

LOL--sucks to get old, huh? I used to have a photographic memory, too
-- not that it was really a good thing because I didn't really LEARN the
stuff other than memorize. But I don't have that capability anymore,
either.

amy

Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote:
I respond emotionally too, but then (being the sort of Kiersey LMNOP that I am)


INTJ?

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 17:47:40 GMT, Bill in Co.
<LostInTime@earthlink.net> wrote: DrLith wrote: "shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c8cb5319.0401270916.71da0862@posting.google.c om... Heh. I used to have a photographic memory, back in high school and college. When taking tests, I could close my eyes and picture the page where the answer lay. Lost this ability somewhere along the way! I can't even remember my work number anymore. It's pathetic how bad my memory is these days. Didn't they tell you? During pregnancy, your body cannibalizes brain cells to create the placenta. So......is that why men are generally smarter than women, then?

No... "God only made enough blood to operate a man's brain or his penis at
a time" -- Steve Martin

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

mbjq@earthlink.net (Emma Anne) writes:
Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote: I respond emotionally too, but then (being the sort of Kiersey LMNOP that I am) INTJ?

I had to look this up, but you're close. I read about the Kiersey
stuff a few months ago with my wife, but couldn't remember, hence the
letter-salad as a joke to all the Kiersey fans here.

The test I took scored me as an INFJ, but the "I" and "F" are
quite weak, and the "N" and the "J" are moderate. I can't help
feeling that there were so many questions that had ambiguous answers
that if I did such a test again, in a different mood, I could easily
get a different answer.

The "F" suprised me at first, but it may reflect the fact that while
I'm very interested in trying to analyze things rationally (and in
trying to do that carefully if I do it at all), I also recognize that
such analyses are often insufficient.

So although I'm a big fan of the scientific method, for example, if
I'm asked a question like "You consider the scientific approach to be
the best" I have to answer "no." (Though for _some_ purposes I
consider it to be the best!)

(I could have grown up to be an INTJ, but my parents let me read too
much as a child. My son, who has reached the "read everything in
sight" stage, and is insatiably curious sometimes make me think "why
did we have to let him learn how to read!")

On 27 Jan 2004 09:16:15 -0800, shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny)
wrote:
Heh. I used to have a photographic memory, back in high school andcollege. When taking tests, I could close my eyes and picture the pagewhere the answer lay. Lost this ability somewhere along the way! Ican't even remember my work number anymore. It's pathetic how bad mymemory is these days.

Heaven help me if that ever happens to me. Last count I had 3 work
phones (two locations plus cell), plus 24 distinct IDs and passwords.
And that's on top of the standard passwords and numbers one needs to
know (bank PINS, investment IDS and PINS, S.I.N., etc).

And I did it to my boss again this week. He cleaned up my office a
year ago. This week he was he was looking for a specific cable. I
said off handed "bookshelf, second shelf down, box marked 'Misc.', dig
down to the bottom of the box, light purple in colour". Dang if it
wasn't there.

Tara

shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) writes:
Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<oBkRb.160683$na.272664@attbi_s04>... shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) writes: Later I was talking to my boss and moaning about how they attacked me, how the plan would never work without their buy-in, obviously they hated the idea so why bother to fight an uphill battle, why did they have to be so nit picky.. ? He surprised me with a completely different view of how the meeting went: on the contrary, he thought it went very well and that I *did* have their support; otherwise they wouldn't be poking holes into the proposal! Boy. I've had exactly that same experience both from the point of view of your boss (seeing someone with a good idea overwhelmed with questions about details and being the one to say "look, that was a really productive meeting; now we know how to get this into much better shape") and being the person overwhelmend with questions about details. Yep, it's interesting how one's own vulnerable ego can warp one's perception. On the flip side, once I quelled my own shaky insecure thoughts, I started to sense that this other team was likewise feeling a bit insecure, panicking over the thought of all the work the project is going to land on their shoulders, if we proceed (and it looks like we will). Sometimes people can use nit-picking as a way to avoid addressing other things going on in their lives. Doug, I hope you don't mind this observation (which could be completely off mark!) but sometimes I get the impression that you might be doing this. I get the sense that something might be going on in your home or professional life that you'd rather avoid. IOW, when you start nit-picking here, perhaps you are procrastinating about some other big project on your plate?

Perhaps. It's hard to say since I'm not really aware of myself as
nit-picking at all. That is, whatever it is that seems like a nit to
you seems like an interesting point to me at the time.

I know I am apt to spend hours on usenet when I'm procrastinating about something IRL.

Well, yeah, that's pretty easy to do. And I'm in a chronic state of
too many big projects.

Does anybody know the (genetic) answer to this, or was it misinfomation? I
was just curious.

Bill in Co. wrote: DrLith wrote: "Bill in Co." <LostInTime@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:0vxRb.29810$zj7.17621@newsread1.news.pas.eart hlink.net... DrLith wrote:> "shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message> news:c8cb5319.0401270916.71da0862@posting.google.c om...>> Heh. I used to have a photographic memory, back in high school and>> college. When taking tests, I could close my eyes and picture the page>> where the answer lay. Lost this ability somewhere along the way! I>> can't even remember my work number anymore. It's pathetic how bad my>> memory is these days.>> Didn't they tell you? During pregnancy, your body cannibalizes brain cells> to create the placenta. So......is that why men are generally smarter than women, then? Multiparous women, anyhow. Nullipars are smarter than men, statistically. LOL! But on a more serious note, was it someone in here (or was it in ASD?) that said that were more male genius's in the world, simply due to there being a wider spread in the genetic chromosomic variations for the male species, but
I don't know enough biology (or or physiology) to know. I think someone here in ASM said this.

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 07:00:09 GMT, "Bill in Co."
<LostInTime@earthlink.net> wrote:
Does anybody know the (genetic) answer to this, or was it misinfomation? Iwas just curious.Bill in Co. wrote: DrLith wrote: "Bill in Co." <LostInTime@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:0vxRb.29810$zj7.17621@newsread1.news.pas.eart hlink.net...> DrLith wrote:>> "shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message>> news:c8cb5319.0401270916.71da0862@posting.google.c om...>>> Heh. I used to have a photographic memory, back in high school and>>> college. When taking tests, I could close my eyes and picture the page>>> where the answer lay. Lost this ability somewhere along the way! I>>> can't even remember my work number anymore. It's pathetic how bad my>>> memory is these days.>>>> Didn't they tell you? During pregnancy, your body cannibalizes brain cells>> to create the placenta.>> So......is that why men are generally smarter than women, then? Multiparous women, anyhow. Nullipars are smarter than men, statistically. LOL! But on a more serious note, was it someone in here (or was it in ASD?) that said that were more male genius's in the world, simply due to there being a wider spread in the genetic chromosomic variations for the male species, butI don't know enough biology (or or physiology) to know. I think someone here in ASM said this.
That was me. There are more men on either side of the bell curve. Men
have more diversity in their genetic make up than women do so you will
find more men who are developmentally disabled and more who are
geniuses. It is also why there are more men in mental hospital than
women. It's that Y chromosome.

Rauni wrote: On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 07:00:09 GMT, "Bill in Co." <LostInTime@earthlink.net> wrote: Does anybody know the (genetic) answer to this, or was it misinfomation?
I was just curious. Bill in Co. wrote: DrLith wrote:> "Bill in Co." <LostInTime@earthlink.net> wrote in message> news:0vxRb.29810$zj7.17621@newsread1.news.pas.eart hlink.net...>> DrLith wrote:>>> "shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message>>> news:c8cb5319.0401270916.71da0862@posting.google.c om...>>>> Heh. I used to have a photographic memory, back in high school and>>>> college. When taking tests, I could close my eyes and picture the page>>>> where the answer lay. Lost this ability somewhere along the way! I>>>> can't even remember my work number anymore. It's pathetic how bad my>>>> memory is these days.>>>>>> Didn't they tell you? During pregnancy, your body cannibalizes brain>>> cells to create the placenta.>>>> So......is that why men are generally smarter than women, then?>> Multiparous women, anyhow. Nullipars are smarter than men, statistically. LOL! But on a more serious note, was it someone in here (or was it in ASD?) that said that were more male genius's in the world, simply due to there being a wider spread in the genetic chromosomic variations for the male species, but I don't know enough biology (or or physiology) to know. I think someone here in ASM said this. That was me. There are more men on either side of the bell curve. Men have more diversity in their genetic make up than women do so you will find more men who are developmentally disabled and more who are geniuses. It is also why there are more men in mental hospital than women. It's that Y chromosome.

Thanks Rauni. I should have remembered it was you.

So - I guess that either means the Y chromosome, per se, has more variations
"within it", or else the XY male chromosome pair has more possible variations
within it than the XX female chromosome pair? (I'm not sure about this - I
don't know much biology!)

Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote:
mbjq@earthlink.net (Emma Anne) writes: Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote: I respond emotionally too, but then (being the sort of Kiersey LMNOP that I am) INTJ? I had to look this up, but you're close. I read about the Kiersey stuff a few months ago with my wife, but couldn't remember, hence the letter-salad as a joke to all the Kiersey fans here.

My H is an ENTJ. How about your W?

The test I took scored me as an INFJ, but the "I" and "F" are quite weak, and the "N" and the "J" are moderate. I can't help feeling that there were so many questions that had ambiguous answers that if I did such a test again, in a different mood, I could easily get a different answer.

I guessed INTJ, because that is what I am, and the way you approach
issues and arguments feels quite familiar to me. Also the way you
sometimes totally enrage people without meaning to or really getting
why. :-)

I did the real MB test, with the licensed

The "F" suprised me at first, but it may reflect the fact that while I'm very interested in trying to analyze things rationally (and in trying to do that carefully if I do it at all), I also recognize that such analyses are often insufficient. So although I'm a big fan of the scientific method, for example, if I'm asked a question like "You consider the scientific approach to be the best" I have to answer "no." (Though for _some_ purposes I consider it to be the best!) (I could have grown up to be an INTJ, but my parents let me read too much as a child. My son, who has reached the "read everything in sight" stage, and is insatiably curious sometimes make me think "why did we have to let him learn how to read!")

No, because I also read voraciously as a child. I still do in fact. As
do both of my children. And thank God - I would really suffer if I had a
kid who didn't like reading.

No, because I also read voraciously as a child. I stilldo in fact. As do both of my children. And thank God -I would really suffer if I had a kid who didn't likereading.

Me, too. Three books in the last 4 days, actually. (That
number is a little higher than normal because I've got
a head cold and laying on the couch is about all I can
do right now. :( )

My 'problem' is that I, at least 95% of the time, read
fiction. Most commonly, science fiction and fantasy, with
a liberal dose of crime/lawyer/spy books. So, entertain-
ment value is very high, intellectual stimulation not so
high. :P (Although, I've been reading Dan Brown's books
lately and they have spurred an interest in religious
history/subjects that I'm going to pursue soon.)

Tracey

mbjq@earthlink.net (Emma Anne) writes:
Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote: mbjq@earthlink.net (Emma Anne) writes: Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote: > I respond emotionally too, but then (being the sort of Kiersey LMNOP > that I am) INTJ? I had to look this up, but you're close. I read about the Kiersey stuff a few months ago with my wife, but couldn't remember, hence the letter-salad as a joke to all the Kiersey fans here. My H is an ENTJ. How about your W?

I can't really remember. (Which isn't that surprising because I
couldn't remember myself either.)

She might be an INTP, but the "N" and the "T" would be very weakly
expressed, and could go the other way.

So not much like an ENTJ. (Though some of my best friends...)
The test I took scored me as an INFJ, but the "I" and "F" are quite weak, and the "N" and the "J" are moderate. I can't help feeling that there were so many questions that had ambiguous answers that if I did such a test again, in a different mood, I could easily get a different answer. I guessed INTJ, because that is what I am, and the way you approach issues and arguments feels quite familiar to me.

Yes, I notice that to some extent too.
Also the way you sometimes totally enrage people without meaning to or really getting why. :-)

Right. Although in real life I've been able to learn how to read cues
quickly enough so that I don't really do this anymore. On usenet it
is both harder to read those cues, and easier to be really precise.
I did the real MB test, with the licensed

Not me, just some online thingy.

>bject: Re: The one thing I dislike about this group...From: Doug Anderson ethelthelog@yahoo.comDate: 1/28/2004 2:26 PM Eastern Standard TimeMessage-id: <laptd3swmg.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu>mbjq@earthlink.net (Emma Anne) writes: Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > INTJ? I had to look this up, but you're close. I read about the Kiersey stuff a few months ago with my wife, but couldn't remember, hence the letter-salad as a joke to all the Kiersey fans here. My H is an ENTJ. How about your W?

I'm an ENFP. Somehow, I suspect no one is surprised. ;-)

My DH is one of those INTP "reality shapers". So far, it is working out pretty
well. If anything ever happens to him, I'll probably look for a similar model.
;-)))))

Sheila

Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<laptd3swmg.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu>... mbjq@earthlink.net (Emma Anne) writes: Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote: mbjq@earthlink.net (Emma Anne) writes: > Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > I respond emotionally too, but then (being the sort of Kiersey LMNOP > > that I am) > > > INTJ? I had to look this up, but you're close. I read about the Kiersey stuff a few months ago with my wife, but couldn't remember, hence the letter-salad as a joke to all the Kiersey fans here. My H is an ENTJ. How about your W? I can't really remember. (Which isn't that surprising because I couldn't remember myself either.) She might be an INTP, but the "N" and the "T" would be very weakly expressed, and could go the other way. So not much like an ENTJ. (Though some of my best friends...) The test I took scored me as an INFJ, but the "I" and "F" are quite weak, and the "N" and the "J" are moderate. I can't help feeling that there were so many questions that had ambiguous answers that if I did such a test again, in a different mood, I could easily get a different answer. I guessed INTJ, because that is what I am, and the way you approach issues and arguments feels quite familiar to me. Yes, I notice that to some extent too. Also the way you sometimes totally enrage people without meaning to or really getting why. :-) Right. Although in real life I've been able to learn how to read cues quickly enough so that I don't really do this anymore. On usenet it is both harder to read those cues, and easier to be really precise. I did the real MB test, with the licensed Not me, just some online thingy.


Would you guys cut this out. Ian is going to hear about it.

Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote:
No, because I also read voraciously as a child. I stilldo in fact. As do both of my children. And thank God -I would really suffer if I had a kid who didn't likereading. Me, too. Three books in the last 4 days, actually. (That number is a little higher than normal because I've got a head cold and laying on the couch is about all I can do right now. :( ) My 'problem' is that I, at least 95% of the time, read fiction. Most commonly, science fiction and fantasy, with a liberal dose of crime/lawyer/spy books. So, entertain- ment value is very high, intellectual stimulation not so high. :P

Me too, but I figure it is still so much better than TV that I refuse to
feel guilty!

I go on nonfiction kicks when I get interested in a subject and want to
know everything about it. Then I get back to my murder mysteries and my
eleven year old's fantasy books.

Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote:
My H is an ENTJ. How about your W? I can't really remember. (Which isn't that surprising because I couldn't remember myself either.) She might be an INTP, but the "N" and the "T" would be very weakly expressed, and could go the other way. So not much like an ENTJ. (Though some of my best friends...)

The ENTJ type is the one who jumps in and takes charge of whatever he's
doing. I think he married me because it is impossible to take charge of
an INTJ and he knew, deep down that it wouldn't be good for him to "run"
his marriage. :-) I, of course, married him so I'd get out and do
things with people once in awhile.

Caren <caren50@msn.com> wrote:
Would you guys cut this out. Ian is going to hear about it.

Um?