I am glad that the homeowner who shot an intruder seems to have
stopped a string of burglaries. Glad that my location does not have a
handgun ban.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-0312310111dec31,1,24982.story?coll=chi-news-hed

Wilmette man shoots intruder in his home
Advertisement


By Lisa Black and M. Daniel Gibbard, Tribune staff
reporters. Freelance reporter Brian Cox contributed to this article

December 31, 2003

Hours after an intruder used the dog door of a Wilmette home to steal
a set of keys and a BMW sports-utility vehicle, the homeowner shot a
man he confronted inside the house, authorities said Tuesday.

After being hit twice Monday, the suspect plunged through a front
window of the home and escaped, but he was caught a short time later
when he drove the stolen SUV to St. Francis Hospital in Evanston
seeking treatment for his wounds, police said.

Morio Billings, 31, of the 2100 block of South Trumbull Avenue in
Chicago, was charged Tuesday night with two counts of felony
residential burglary and one count of felony possession of a stolen
motor vehicle, said John Gorman, spokesman for the Cook County state's
attorney's office.

Billings, who was shot in the left shoulder and left calf, remained
hospitalized after surgery, Gorman said. His condition was described
as non-life-threatening.

Billings was shot by Hale DeMar, 54, who was home in the 0-99 block of
Linden Avenue with his wife and two children when Billings used a key
to enter the house, authorities said.

Police would not say whether Billings is suspected in the first
burglary when the keys were stolen from DeMar's house. That incident
occurred between 11 p.m. Sunday and 3 a.m. Monday.

"At this point our hearts go out to the residents that suffered this
trauma," said Wilmette police spokesman Roger Ockrim.

The DeMars' house is one of a few residences on a short street that
ends near the Lake Michigan shore and is within walking distance of
the Bahai House of Worship on Sheridan Road. Several homes, set some
distance from the street, are behind wrought-iron fences.

On Tuesday, a front window of the home was boarded up and family
members declined to answer the door. DeMar, who owns the Oak Tree
Restaurant in Chicago, declined to comment Tuesday afternoon. Reached
by telephone, he said, "I'm afraid I can't."

Police were responding to a residential burglary alarm at the home at
10:34 p.m. Monday when the dispatcher received a call from DeMar who
told them he had confronted a burglar and fired several shots with a
handgun, Ockrim said.

The circumstances of the shooting, including where in the house it
occurred, were unclear late Tuesday, he said. But after shots were
fired, Billings "literally went through the window" to escape, Ockrim
said.

He said police were not sure whether the intruder was armed.

Officers found blood where he had fled and tracked Billings after
notifying hospitals to be on the lookout for anyone seeking treatment
for gunshot wounds, Ockrim said.

DeMar is barred from owning a handgun by village ordinance. Ockrim did
not know whether DeMar would be charged with any violations.

But he said, "The primary issue is someone has been burglarized and
someone has been shot." Ockrim described DeMar as "understandably
upset."

Police said they will investigate whether the shooting was in
self-defense. The state statute dealing with such shootings is open to
interpretation, said police and officials with the state's attorney's
office.

"There's the letter of the law and the flavor of the law," Ockrim
said. "You can't make a blanket statement until you've conducted an
investigation."

The break-in was the latest of several burglaries in neighborhoods
east of Green Bay Road since October, police said.

The break-ins usually occurred between 11 p.m. and 5 a.m. and in each
instance the burglar entered the home through a back door and stole a
purse or wallet visible from outside the residence.

Extra overnight patrols in marked and unmarked cars have been added in
the neighborhoods, police said.

Wilmette Village Trustee Beth Lambrecht predicted the firearms ban
will be discussed at a future Village Board meeting, either to
reconsider the ban or to remind the public of it.

She said using a gun to chase off a burglar is "very risky."

Another trustee said he didn't think the incident would lead to a
change in the handgun ban.

"It wouldn't from my viewpoint," said Trustee James Griffith. "But I'm
glad the guy had a gun."

I'm glad too. Furthermore, I think all criminals of this nature should be
killed.

Rob a house or store? Dead.
Mug someone? Dead.

I have no use for people like that. They will never be productive members of
society.


"Ignoramus871" <ignoramus871@NOSPAM.871.invalid> wrote in message
news:bsv1u9$tlu$0@pita.alt.net... I am glad that the homeowner who shot an intruder seems to have stopped a string of burglaries. Glad that my location does not have a handgun ban.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-0312310111dec31,1,24982.story?coll=chi-news-hed Wilmette man shoots intruder in his home Advertisement By Lisa Black and M. Daniel Gibbard, Tribune staff reporters. Freelance reporter Brian Cox contributed to this article December 31, 2003 Hours after an intruder used the dog door of a Wilmette home to steal a set of keys and a BMW sports-utility vehicle, the homeowner shot a man he confronted inside the house, authorities said Tuesday. After being hit twice Monday, the suspect plunged through a front window of the home and escaped, but he was caught a short time later when he drove the stolen SUV to St. Francis Hospital in Evanston seeking treatment for his wounds, police said. Morio Billings, 31, of the 2100 block of South Trumbull Avenue in Chicago, was charged Tuesday night with two counts of felony residential burglary and one count of felony possession of a stolen motor vehicle, said John Gorman, spokesman for the Cook County state's attorney's office. Billings, who was shot in the left shoulder and left calf, remained hospitalized after surgery, Gorman said. His condition was described as non-life-threatening. Billings was shot by Hale DeMar, 54, who was home in the 0-99 block of Linden Avenue with his wife and two children when Billings used a key to enter the house, authorities said. Police would not say whether Billings is suspected in the first burglary when the keys were stolen from DeMar's house. That incident occurred between 11 p.m. Sunday and 3 a.m. Monday. "At this point our hearts go out to the residents that suffered this trauma," said Wilmette police spokesman Roger Ockrim. The DeMars' house is one of a few residences on a short street that ends near the Lake Michigan shore and is within walking distance of the Bahai House of Worship on Sheridan Road. Several homes, set some distance from the street, are behind wrought-iron fences. On Tuesday, a front window of the home was boarded up and family members declined to answer the door. DeMar, who owns the Oak Tree Restaurant in Chicago, declined to comment Tuesday afternoon. Reached by telephone, he said, "I'm afraid I can't." Police were responding to a residential burglary alarm at the home at 10:34 p.m. Monday when the dispatcher received a call from DeMar who told them he had confronted a burglar and fired several shots with a handgun, Ockrim said. The circumstances of the shooting, including where in the house it occurred, were unclear late Tuesday, he said. But after shots were fired, Billings "literally went through the window" to escape, Ockrim said. He said police were not sure whether the intruder was armed. Officers found blood where he had fled and tracked Billings after notifying hospitals to be on the lookout for anyone seeking treatment for gunshot wounds, Ockrim said. DeMar is barred from owning a handgun by village ordinance. Ockrim did not know whether DeMar would be charged with any violations. But he said, "The primary issue is someone has been burglarized and someone has been shot." Ockrim described DeMar as "understandably upset." Police said they will investigate whether the shooting was in self-defense. The state statute dealing with such shootings is open to interpretation, said police and officials with the state's attorney's office. "There's the letter of the law and the flavor of the law," Ockrim said. "You can't make a blanket statement until you've conducted an investigation." The break-in was the latest of several burglaries in neighborhoods east of Green Bay Road since October, police said. The break-ins usually occurred between 11 p.m. and 5 a.m. and in each instance the burglar entered the home through a back door and stole a purse or wallet visible from outside the residence. Extra overnight patrols in marked and unmarked cars have been added in the neighborhoods, police said. Wilmette Village Trustee Beth Lambrecht predicted the firearms ban will be discussed at a future Village Board meeting, either to reconsider the ban or to remind the public of it. She said using a gun to chase off a burglar is "very risky." Another trustee said he didn't think the incident would lead to a change in the handgun ban. "It wouldn't from my viewpoint," said Trustee James Griffith. "But I'm glad the guy had a gun."

What I think is that our state needs a "make my day" law like in
Oklahoma. Which says, more or less, that a homeowners has the right to
shoot intruders when there is a slightest chance that the intruder
"might be able to" inflict any damage on them, and they are protected
against criminal and CIVIL prosecution.

Now this intruder, once he recuperates, is likely to hire a lawyer and
sue the homeowner (who looks like he has a lot of money), and likely
willl make a few times more money this way than via his past
robberies.

Personally, myself, I would not hesitate to shoot intruders anyway,
but with such a law, there would be a lot fewer such crimes around
here.

`` A. The Legislature hereby recognizes that the citizens of the
State of Oklahoma have a right to expect absolute safety within
their own homes.
B. Any occupant of a dwelling is justified in using any degree
of physical force, including but not limited to deadly force,
against another person who has made an unlawful entry into that
dwelling, and when the occupant has a reasonable belief that such
other person might use any physical force, no matter how slight,
against any occupant of the dwelling.
C. Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including
but not limited to deadly force, pursuant to the provisions of
subsection B of this section, shall have an affirmative defense in
any criminal prosecution for an offense arising from the reasonable
use of such force and shall be immune from any civil liability for
injuries or death resulting from the reasonable use of such force.''

i
well armed and happy

In article <19EIb.72467$4F2.6863695@twister.nyc.rr.com>, JWB wrote: I'm glad too. Furthermore, I think all criminals of this nature should be killed. Rob a house or store? Dead. Mug someone? Dead. I have no use for people like that. They will never be productive members of society. "Ignoramus871" <ignoramus871@NOSPAM.871.invalid> wrote in message news:bsv1u9$tlu$0@pita.alt.net... I am glad that the homeowner who shot an intruder seems to have stopped a string of burglaries. Glad that my location does not have a handgun ban. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-0312310111dec31,1,24982.story?coll=chi-news-hed Wilmette man shoots intruder in his home Advertisement By Lisa Black and M. Daniel Gibbard, Tribune staff reporters. Freelance reporter Brian Cox contributed to this article December 31, 2003 Hours after an intruder used the dog door of a Wilmette home to steal a set of keys and a BMW sports-utility vehicle, the homeowner shot a man he confronted inside the house, authorities said Tuesday. After being hit twice Monday, the suspect plunged through a front window of the home and escaped, but he was caught a short time later when he drove the stolen SUV to St. Francis Hospital in Evanston seeking treatment for his wounds, police said. Morio Billings, 31, of the 2100 block of South Trumbull Avenue in Chicago, was charged Tuesday night with two counts of felony residential burglary and one count of felony possession of a stolen motor vehicle, said John Gorman, spokesman for the Cook County state's attorney's office. Billings, who was shot in the left shoulder and left calf, remained hospitalized after surgery, Gorman said. His condition was described as non-life-threatening. Billings was shot by Hale DeMar, 54, who was home in the 0-99 block of Linden Avenue with his wife and two children when Billings used a key to enter the house, authorities said. Police would not say whether Billings is suspected in the first burglary when the keys were stolen from DeMar's house. That incident occurred between 11 p.m. Sunday and 3 a.m. Monday. "At this point our hearts go out to the residents that suffered this trauma," said Wilmette police spokesman Roger Ockrim. The DeMars' house is one of a few residences on a short street that ends near the Lake Michigan shore and is within walking distance of the Bahai House of Worship on Sheridan Road. Several homes, set some distance from the street, are behind wrought-iron fences. On Tuesday, a front window of the home was boarded up and family members declined to answer the door. DeMar, who owns the Oak Tree Restaurant in Chicago, declined to comment Tuesday afternoon. Reached by telephone, he said, "I'm afraid I can't." Police were responding to a residential burglary alarm at the home at 10:34 p.m. Monday when the dispatcher received a call from DeMar who told them he had confronted a burglar and fired several shots with a handgun, Ockrim said. The circumstances of the shooting, including where in the house it occurred, were unclear late Tuesday, he said. But after shots were fired, Billings "literally went through the window" to escape, Ockrim said. He said police were not sure whether the intruder was armed. Officers found blood where he had fled and tracked Billings after notifying hospitals to be on the lookout for anyone seeking treatment for gunshot wounds, Ockrim said. DeMar is barred from owning a handgun by village ordinance. Ockrim did not know whether DeMar would be charged with any violations. But he said, "The primary issue is someone has been burglarized and someone has been shot." Ockrim described DeMar as "understandably upset." Police said they will investigate whether the shooting was in self-defense. The state statute dealing with such shootings is open to interpretation, said police and officials with the state's attorney's office. "There's the letter of the law and the flavor of the law," Ockrim said. "You can't make a blanket statement until you've conducted an investigation." The break-in was the latest of several burglaries in neighborhoods east of Green Bay Road since October, police said. The break-ins usually occurred between 11 p.m. and 5 a.m. and in each instance the burglar entered the home through a back door and stole a purse or wallet visible from outside the residence. Extra overnight patrols in marked and unmarked cars have been added in the neighborhoods, police said. Wilmette Village Trustee Beth Lambrecht predicted the firearms ban will be discussed at a future Village Board meeting, either to reconsider the ban or to remind the public of it. She said using a gun to chase off a burglar is "very risky." Another trustee said he didn't think the incident would lead to a change in the handgun ban. "It wouldn't from my viewpoint," said Trustee James Griffith. "But I'm glad the guy had a gun."

Here;s what one Florida resident did (funny):

http://igor.chudov.com/images/pool/armedwarning4.jpg

A shot gun is a better defensive weapon .. just point in the general
direction.. no aiming required..<S>

Kass


"Ignoramus871" <ignoramus871@NOSPAM.871.invalid> wrote in message
news:bsv1u9$tlu$0@pita.alt.net... I am glad that the homeowner who shot an intruder seems to have stopped a string of burglaries. Glad that my location does not have a handgun ban.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-0312310111dec31,1,24982.story?coll=chi-news-hed Wilmette man shoots intruder in his home Advertisement By Lisa Black and M. Daniel Gibbard, Tribune staff reporters. Freelance reporter Brian Cox contributed to this article December 31, 2003 Hours after an intruder used the dog door of a Wilmette home to steal a set of keys and a BMW sports-utility vehicle, the homeowner shot a man he confronted inside the house, authorities said Tuesday. After being hit twice Monday, the suspect plunged through a front window of the home and escaped, but he was caught a short time later when he drove the stolen SUV to St. Francis Hospital in Evanston seeking treatment for his wounds, police said. Morio Billings, 31, of the 2100 block of South Trumbull Avenue in Chicago, was charged Tuesday night with two counts of felony residential burglary and one count of felony possession of a stolen motor vehicle, said John Gorman, spokesman for the Cook County state's attorney's office. Billings, who was shot in the left shoulder and left calf, remained hospitalized after surgery, Gorman said. His condition was described as non-life-threatening. Billings was shot by Hale DeMar, 54, who was home in the 0-99 block of Linden Avenue with his wife and two children when Billings used a key to enter the house, authorities said. Police would not say whether Billings is suspected in the first burglary when the keys were stolen from DeMar's house. That incident occurred between 11 p.m. Sunday and 3 a.m. Monday. "At this point our hearts go out to the residents that suffered this trauma," said Wilmette police spokesman Roger Ockrim. The DeMars' house is one of a few residences on a short street that ends near the Lake Michigan shore and is within walking distance of the Bahai House of Worship on Sheridan Road. Several homes, set some distance from the street, are behind wrought-iron fences. On Tuesday, a front window of the home was boarded up and family members declined to answer the door. DeMar, who owns the Oak Tree Restaurant in Chicago, declined to comment Tuesday afternoon. Reached by telephone, he said, "I'm afraid I can't." Police were responding to a residential burglary alarm at the home at 10:34 p.m. Monday when the dispatcher received a call from DeMar who told them he had confronted a burglar and fired several shots with a handgun, Ockrim said. The circumstances of the shooting, including where in the house it occurred, were unclear late Tuesday, he said. But after shots were fired, Billings "literally went through the window" to escape, Ockrim said. He said police were not sure whether the intruder was armed. Officers found blood where he had fled and tracked Billings after notifying hospitals to be on the lookout for anyone seeking treatment for gunshot wounds, Ockrim said. DeMar is barred from owning a handgun by village ordinance. Ockrim did not know whether DeMar would be charged with any violations. But he said, "The primary issue is someone has been burglarized and someone has been shot." Ockrim described DeMar as "understandably upset." Police said they will investigate whether the shooting was in self-defense. The state statute dealing with such shootings is open to interpretation, said police and officials with the state's attorney's office. "There's the letter of the law and the flavor of the law," Ockrim said. "You can't make a blanket statement until you've conducted an investigation." The break-in was the latest of several burglaries in neighborhoods east of Green Bay Road since October, police said. The break-ins usually occurred between 11 p.m. and 5 a.m. and in each instance the burglar entered the home through a back door and stole a purse or wallet visible from outside the residence. Extra overnight patrols in marked and unmarked cars have been added in the neighborhoods, police said. Wilmette Village Trustee Beth Lambrecht predicted the firearms ban will be discussed at a future Village Board meeting, either to reconsider the ban or to remind the public of it. She said using a gun to chase off a burglar is "very risky." Another trustee said he didn't think the incident would lead to a change in the handgun ban. "It wouldn't from my viewpoint," said Trustee James Griffith. "But I'm glad the guy had a gun."

In article <XQEIb.8769$nK2.3541@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>, whisper wrote: A shot gun is a better defensive weapon .. just point in the general direction.. no aiming required..<S>

It is a myth Kass, does not work this way.

i

I have shot several types of guns.. the shot gun is the easiest to hit a
target with..

Kass
used to be an avid hunter.. worked in a sporting goods store


"Ignoramus871" <ignoramus871@NOSPAM.871.invalid> wrote in message
news:bsv5th$4n6$0@pita.alt.net... In article <XQEIb.8769$nK2.3541@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>, whisper wrote: A shot gun is a better defensive weapon .. just point in the general direction.. no aiming required..<S> It is a myth Kass, does not work this way. i

hmm to me that law is a little vague..

so if I have a person I know in my house.and we should get in a fight.. and
I shoot and kill that person..all I have to do is say..they were an intruder
or "threatened" my safety..and I could get away with murder?

Kass


"Ignoramus871" <ignoramus871@NOSPAM.871.invalid> wrote in message
news:bsv3ho$vq2$0@pita.alt.net... What I think is that our state needs a "make my day" law like in Oklahoma. Which says, more or less, that a homeowners has the right to shoot intruders when there is a slightest chance that the intruder "might be able to" inflict any damage on them, and they are protected against criminal and CIVIL prosecution. Now this intruder, once he recuperates, is likely to hire a lawyer and sue the homeowner (who looks like he has a lot of money), and likely willl make a few times more money this way than via his past robberies. Personally, myself, I would not hesitate to shoot intruders anyway, but with such a law, there would be a lot fewer such crimes around here. `` A. The Legislature hereby recognizes that the citizens of the State of Oklahoma have a right to expect absolute safety within their own homes. B. Any occupant of a dwelling is justified in using any degree of physical force, including but not limited to deadly force, against another person who has made an unlawful entry into that dwelling, and when the occupant has a reasonable belief that such other person might use any physical force, no matter how slight, against any occupant of the dwelling. C. Any occupant of a dwelling using physical force, including but not limited to deadly force, pursuant to the provisions of subsection B of this section, shall have an affirmative defense in any criminal prosecution for an offense arising from the reasonable use of such force and shall be immune from any civil liability for injuries or death resulting from the reasonable use of such force.'' i well armed and happy In article <19EIb.72467$4F2.6863695@twister.nyc.rr.com>, JWB wrote: I'm glad too. Furthermore, I think all criminals of this nature should
be killed. Rob a house or store? Dead. Mug someone? Dead. I have no use for people like that. They will never be productive
members of society. "Ignoramus871" <ignoramus871@NOSPAM.871.invalid> wrote in message news:bsv1u9$tlu$0@pita.alt.net... I am glad that the homeowner who shot an intruder seems to have stopped a string of burglaries. Glad that my location does not have a handgun ban.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-0312310111dec31,1,24982.story?coll=chi-news-hed Wilmette man shoots intruder in his home Advertisement By Lisa Black and M. Daniel Gibbard, Tribune staff reporters. Freelance reporter Brian Cox contributed to this article December 31, 2003 Hours after an intruder used the dog door of a Wilmette home to steal a set of keys and a BMW sports-utility vehicle, the homeowner shot a man he confronted inside the house, authorities said Tuesday. After being hit twice Monday, the suspect plunged through a front window of the home and escaped, but he was caught a short time later when he drove the stolen SUV to St. Francis Hospital in Evanston seeking treatment for his wounds, police said. Morio Billings, 31, of the 2100 block of South Trumbull Avenue in Chicago, was charged Tuesday night with two counts of felony residential burglary and one count of felony possession of a stolen motor vehicle, said John Gorman, spokesman for the Cook County state's attorney's office. Billings, who was shot in the left shoulder and left calf, remained hospitalized after surgery, Gorman said. His condition was described as non-life-threatening. Billings was shot by Hale DeMar, 54, who was home in the 0-99 block of Linden Avenue with his wife and two children when Billings used a key to enter the house, authorities said. Police would not say whether Billings is suspected in the first burglary when the keys were stolen from DeMar's house. That incident occurred between 11 p.m. Sunday and 3 a.m. Monday. "At this point our hearts go out to the residents that suffered this trauma," said Wilmette police spokesman Roger Ockrim. The DeMars' house is one of a few residences on a short street that ends near the Lake Michigan shore and is within walking distance of the Bahai House of Worship on Sheridan Road. Several homes, set some distance from the street, are behind wrought-iron fences. On Tuesday, a front window of the home was boarded up and family members declined to answer the door. DeMar, who owns the Oak Tree Restaurant in Chicago, declined to comment Tuesday afternoon. Reached by telephone, he said, "I'm afraid I can't." Police were responding to a residential burglary alarm at the home at 10:34 p.m. Monday when the dispatcher received a call from DeMar who told them he had confronted a burglar and fired several shots with a handgun, Ockrim said. The circumstances of the shooting, including where in the house it occurred, were unclear late Tuesday, he said. But after shots were fired, Billings "literally went through the window" to escape, Ockrim said. He said police were not sure whether the intruder was armed. Officers found blood where he had fled and tracked Billings after notifying hospitals to be on the lookout for anyone seeking treatment for gunshot wounds, Ockrim said. DeMar is barred from owning a handgun by village ordinance. Ockrim did not know whether DeMar would be charged with any violations. But he said, "The primary issue is someone has been burglarized and someone has been shot." Ockrim described DeMar as "understandably upset." Police said they will investigate whether the shooting was in self-defense. The state statute dealing with such shootings is open to interpretation, said police and officials with the state's attorney's office. "There's the letter of the law and the flavor of the law," Ockrim said. "You can't make a blanket statement until you've conducted an investigation." The break-in was the latest of several burglaries in neighborhoods east of Green Bay Road since October, police said. The break-ins usually occurred between 11 p.m. and 5 a.m. and in each instance the burglar entered the home through a back door and stole a purse or wallet visible from outside the residence. Extra overnight patrols in marked and unmarked cars have been added in the neighborhoods, police said. Wilmette Village Trustee Beth Lambrecht predicted the firearms ban will be discussed at a future Village Board meeting, either to reconsider the ban or to remind the public of it. She said using a gun to chase off a burglar is "very risky." Another trustee said he didn't think the incident would lead to a change in the handgun ban. "It wouldn't from my viewpoint," said Trustee James Griffith. "But I'm glad the guy had a gun."

In article <%jFIb.34162$E17.27621@nwrddc02.gnilink.net>, whisper wrote: I have shot several types of guns.. the shot gun is the easiest to hit a target with..

the dispersion pattern (how widely the pellets disperse) of a shotgun
is not that wide. You still have to aim.

i
Kass used to be an avid hunter.. worked in a sporting goods store "Ignoramus871" <ignoramus871@NOSPAM.871.invalid> wrote in message news:bsv5th$4n6$0@pita.alt.net... In article <XQEIb.8769$nK2.3541@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>, whisper wrote: A shot gun is a better defensive weapon .. just point in the general direction.. no aiming required..<S> It is a myth Kass, does not work this way. i

Not sure what this has to do with alt.support.marriage exactly; not
everything done by a married person really needs to show up here.

ANYWAY, "JWB <jwbREMOVEME3333@excite.com>" wrote: I think all criminals of this nature should be killed. Rob a house or store? Dead. Mug someone? Dead. I have no use for people like that. They will never be productive members of society.

This doesn't work in practice (and it's been tried). It runs headlong
into territory covered by _Why Things Bite Back: The Revenge of
Unintended Consequences_.

Essentially, the problem is that if a guy breaks into your house and
goes to jail, but gets the chair for killing you, he is less likely to
kill you. Killing you is crossing a line.

But if you get the chair just for breaking into the house, then it
makes matters no worse if you kill all the people inside in your effort
to escape detection. Once you've crossed the line into "offenses that
get the death penalty", you no longer have anything to lose by
committing more crimes, or committing more serious ones.

And if you have cops outside negotiating with a guy who broke in and
is holding hostages, they have to have some room to negotiate *with*.


Darren Provine ! kilroy@elvis.rowan.edu ! http://www.rowan.edu/~kilroy
" As US troops prepared to drop a grenade into the hole, the man
who sent millions to fight and die for him, surrendered without a
struggle; reportedly saying to troops, in English, `My name is Saddam
Hussein. I am the president of Iraq. I want to negotiate.'
I gotta say; sitting in a hole: not the strongest negotiating
position." -- John Stewart, _The Daily Show, 15 December 2003

You made outstanding points. This depends on how effectively are these
crimes prosecuted.

i

In article <bt02bn$jks$1@pcls4.std.com>, Dr Nancy's Sweetie wrote: Not sure what this has to do with alt.support.marriage exactly; not everything done by a married person really needs to show up here. ANYWAY, "JWB <jwbREMOVEME3333@excite.com>" wrote: I think all criminals of this nature should be killed. Rob a house or store? Dead. Mug someone? Dead. I have no use for people like that. They will never be productive members of society. This doesn't work in practice (and it's been tried). It runs headlong into territory covered by _Why Things Bite Back: The Revenge of Unintended Consequences_. Essentially, the problem is that if a guy breaks into your house and goes to jail, but gets the chair for killing you, he is less likely to kill you. Killing you is crossing a line. But if you get the chair just for breaking into the house, then it makes matters no worse if you kill all the people inside in your effort to escape detection. Once you've crossed the line into "offenses that get the death penalty", you no longer have anything to lose by committing more crimes, or committing more serious ones. And if you have cops outside negotiating with a guy who broke in and is holding hostages, they have to have some room to negotiate *with*. Darren Provine ! kilroy@elvis.rowan.edu ! http://www.rowan.edu/~kilroy " As US troops prepared to drop a grenade into the hole, the man who sent millions to fight and die for him, surrendered without a struggle; reportedly saying to troops, in English, `My name is Saddam Hussein. I am the president of Iraq. I want to negotiate.' I gotta say; sitting in a hole: not the strongest negotiating position." -- John Stewart, _The Daily Show, 15 December 2003

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 18:47:19 GMT, whisper
<noway@notnow.com> wrote: A shot gun is a better defensive weapon .. just point in the general direction.. no aiming required..<S>

Loaded with 3" #6 birdshot. 18" barrel with a camper special stock. The
"chunk-CHUNK!" of the slide being slid is the most frightening sound a
burglar can hear :)

-Tony
Kass "Ignoramus871" <ignoramus871@NOSPAM.871.invalid> wrote in message news:bsv1u9$tlu$0@pita.alt.net... I am glad that the homeowner who shot an intruder seems to have stopped a string of burglaries. Glad that my location does not have a handgun ban. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-0312310111dec31,1,24982.story?coll=chi-news-hed Wilmette man shoots intruder in his home Advertisement By Lisa Black and M. Daniel Gibbard, Tribune staff reporters. Freelance reporter Brian Cox contributed to this article December 31, 2003 Hours after an intruder used the dog door of a Wilmette home to steal a set of keys and a BMW sports-utility vehicle, the homeowner shot a man he confronted inside the house, authorities said Tuesday. After being hit twice Monday, the suspect plunged through a front window of the home and escaped, but he was caught a short time later when he drove the stolen SUV to St. Francis Hospital in Evanston seeking treatment for his wounds, police said. Morio Billings, 31, of the 2100 block of South Trumbull Avenue in Chicago, was charged Tuesday night with two counts of felony residential burglary and one count of felony possession of a stolen motor vehicle, said John Gorman, spokesman for the Cook County state's attorney's office. Billings, who was shot in the left shoulder and left calf, remained hospitalized after surgery, Gorman said. His condition was described as non-life-threatening. Billings was shot by Hale DeMar, 54, who was home in the 0-99 block of Linden Avenue with his wife and two children when Billings used a key to enter the house, authorities said. Police would not say whether Billings is suspected in the first burglary when the keys were stolen from DeMar's house. That incident occurred between 11 p.m. Sunday and 3 a.m. Monday. "At this point our hearts go out to the residents that suffered this trauma," said Wilmette police spokesman Roger Ockrim. The DeMars' house is one of a few residences on a short street that ends near the Lake Michigan shore and is within walking distance of the Bahai House of Worship on Sheridan Road. Several homes, set some distance from the street, are behind wrought-iron fences. On Tuesday, a front window of the home was boarded up and family members declined to answer the door. DeMar, who owns the Oak Tree Restaurant in Chicago, declined to comment Tuesday afternoon. Reached by telephone, he said, "I'm afraid I can't." Police were responding to a residential burglary alarm at the home at 10:34 p.m. Monday when the dispatcher received a call from DeMar who told them he had confronted a burglar and fired several shots with a handgun, Ockrim said. The circumstances of the shooting, including where in the house it occurred, were unclear late Tuesday, he said. But after shots were fired, Billings "literally went through the window" to escape, Ockrim said. He said police were not sure whether the intruder was armed. Officers found blood where he had fled and tracked Billings after notifying hospitals to be on the lookout for anyone seeking treatment for gunshot wounds, Ockrim said. DeMar is barred from owning a handgun by village ordinance. Ockrim did not know whether DeMar would be charged with any violations. But he said, "The primary issue is someone has been burglarized and someone has been shot." Ockrim described DeMar as "understandably upset." Police said they will investigate whether the shooting was in self-defense. The state statute dealing with such shootings is open to interpretation, said police and officials with the state's attorney's office. "There's the letter of the law and the flavor of the law," Ockrim said. "You can't make a blanket statement until you've conducted an investigation." The break-in was the latest of several burglaries in neighborhoods east of Green Bay Road since October, police said. The break-ins usually occurred between 11 p.m. and 5 a.m. and in each instance the burglar entered the home through a back door and stole a purse or wallet visible from outside the residence. Extra overnight patrols in marked and unmarked cars have been added in the neighborhoods, police said. Wilmette Village Trustee Beth Lambrecht predicted the firearms ban will be discussed at a future Village Board meeting, either to reconsider the ban or to remind the public of it. She said using a gun to chase off a burglar is "very risky." Another trustee said he didn't think the incident would lead to a change in the handgun ban. "It wouldn't from my viewpoint," said Trustee James Griffith. "But I'm glad the guy had a gun."


--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

On 31 Dec 2003 18:52:33 GMT, Ignoramus871
<ignoramus871@NOSPAM.871.invalid> wrote: In article <XQEIb.8769$nK2.3541@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>, whisper wrote: A shot gun is a better defensive weapon .. just point in the general direction.. no aiming required..<S> It is a myth Kass, does not work this way.

Sure it does, and you don't kill your children in the next room or your
neighbor next door. Birdshot doesn't penetrate two layers of wall board
(the wad might, though).

The only problem you have is with cleanup.

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

In article <slrnbv7beh.irt.tony@home.cigardiary.com>, Tony Miller wrote: On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 18:47:19 GMT, whisper<noway@notnow.com> wrote: A shot gun is a better defensive weapon .. just point in the general direction.. no aiming required..<S> Loaded with 3" #6 birdshot. 18" barrel with a camper special stock. The "chunk-CHUNK!" of the slide being slid is the most frightening sound a burglar can hear :)

A Kalashnikov also has a nice slide when you cycle the bolt.

i
-Tony Kass "Ignoramus871" <ignoramus871@NOSPAM.871.invalid> wrote in message news:bsv1u9$tlu$0@pita.alt.net... I am glad that the homeowner who shot an intruder seems to have stopped a string of burglaries. Glad that my location does not have a handgun ban. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-0312310111dec31,1,24982.story?coll=chi-news-hed Wilmette man shoots intruder in his home Advertisement By Lisa Black and M. Daniel Gibbard, Tribune staff reporters. Freelance reporter Brian Cox contributed to this article December 31, 2003 Hours after an intruder used the dog door of a Wilmette home to steal a set of keys and a BMW sports-utility vehicle, the homeowner shot a man he confronted inside the house, authorities said Tuesday. After being hit twice Monday, the suspect plunged through a front window of the home and escaped, but he was caught a short time later when he drove the stolen SUV to St. Francis Hospital in Evanston seeking treatment for his wounds, police said. Morio Billings, 31, of the 2100 block of South Trumbull Avenue in Chicago, was charged Tuesday night with two counts of felony residential burglary and one count of felony possession of a stolen motor vehicle, said John Gorman, spokesman for the Cook County state's attorney's office. Billings, who was shot in the left shoulder and left calf, remained hospitalized after surgery, Gorman said. His condition was described as non-life-threatening. Billings was shot by Hale DeMar, 54, who was home in the 0-99 block of Linden Avenue with his wife and two children when Billings used a key to enter the house, authorities said. Police would not say whether Billings is suspected in the first burglary when the keys were stolen from DeMar's house. That incident occurred between 11 p.m. Sunday and 3 a.m. Monday. "At this point our hearts go out to the residents that suffered this trauma," said Wilmette police spokesman Roger Ockrim. The DeMars' house is one of a few residences on a short street that ends near the Lake Michigan shore and is within walking distance of the Bahai House of Worship on Sheridan Road. Several homes, set some distance from the street, are behind wrought-iron fences. On Tuesday, a front window of the home was boarded up and family members declined to answer the door. DeMar, who owns the Oak Tree Restaurant in Chicago, declined to comment Tuesday afternoon. Reached by telephone, he said, "I'm afraid I can't." Police were responding to a residential burglary alarm at the home at 10:34 p.m. Monday when the dispatcher received a call from DeMar who told them he had confronted a burglar and fired several shots with a handgun, Ockrim said. The circumstances of the shooting, including where in the house it occurred, were unclear late Tuesday, he said. But after shots were fired, Billings "literally went through the window" to escape, Ockrim said. He said police were not sure whether the intruder was armed. Officers found blood where he had fled and tracked Billings after notifying hospitals to be on the lookout for anyone seeking treatment for gunshot wounds, Ockrim said. DeMar is barred from owning a handgun by village ordinance. Ockrim did not know whether DeMar would be charged with any violations. But he said, "The primary issue is someone has been burglarized and someone has been shot." Ockrim described DeMar as "understandably upset." Police said they will investigate whether the shooting was in self-defense. The state statute dealing with such shootings is open to interpretation, said police and officials with the state's attorney's office. "There's the letter of the law and the flavor of the law," Ockrim said. "You can't make a blanket statement until you've conducted an investigation." The break-in was the latest of several burglaries in neighborhoods east of Green Bay Road since October, police said. The break-ins usually occurred between 11 p.m. and 5 a.m. and in each instance the burglar entered the home through a back door and stole a purse or wallet visible from outside the residence. Extra overnight patrols in marked and unmarked cars have been added in the neighborhoods, police said. Wilmette Village Trustee Beth Lambrecht predicted the firearms ban will be discussed at a future Village Board meeting, either to reconsider the ban or to remind the public of it. She said using a gun to chase off a burglar is "very risky." Another trustee said he didn't think the incident would lead to a change in the handgun ban. "It wouldn't from my viewpoint," said Trustee James Griffith. "But I'm glad the guy had a gun."

In article <slrnbv7bhm.irt.tony@home.cigardiary.com>, Tony Miller wrote: On 31 Dec 2003 18:52:33 GMT, Ignoramus871<ignoramus871@NOSPAM.871.invalid> wrote: In article <XQEIb.8769$nK2.3541@nwrddc01.gnilink.net>, whisper wrote: A shot gun is a better defensive weapon .. just point in the general direction.. no aiming required..<S> It is a myth Kass, does not work this way. Sure it does, and you don't kill your children in the next room or your neighbor next door. Birdshot doesn't penetrate two layers of wall board (the wad might, though). The only problem you have is with cleanup.

No, the shot pattern is too tight and you still need aiming, just like
with any other weapon. I have become somewhat kinda decent at shooting
from the hip, but that's still about aiming.

i

Ignoramus871 <ignoramus871@nospam.871.invalid> wrote: "chunk-CHUNK!" of the slide being slid is the most frightening sound a burglar can hear :) A Kalashnikov also has a nice slide when you cycle the bolt.

While not as powerful as a full-size hunting rifle round, 7.62x39 is NOT
what I'd want to go for for home defense... it can go through a wall or two.

On 31 Dec 2003 18:12:08 GMT, Ignoramus871
<ignoramus871@NOSPAM.871.invalid> wrote:
What I think is that our state needs a "make my day" law like inOklahoma. Which says, more or less, that a homeowners has the right toshoot intruders when there is a slightest chance that the intruder"might be able to" inflict any damage on them, and they are protectedagainst criminal and CIVIL prosecution.Now this intruder, once he recuperates, is likely to hire a lawyer andsue the homeowner (who looks like he has a lot of money), and likelywilll make a few times more money this way than via his pastrobberies.

California recently passed a law which prohibits a perpetrator from
suing for any injuries incurred during the course of the commission of
a felony. As it should be.

In article <3ff86232.6225809@news.cis.dfn.de>, JFK wrote: On 31 Dec 2003 18:12:08 GMT, Ignoramus871<ignoramus871@NOSPAM.871.invalid> wrote:What I think is that our state needs a "make my day" law like inOklahoma. Which says, more or less, that a homeowners has the right toshoot intruders when there is a slightest chance that the intruder"might be able to" inflict any damage on them, and they are protectedagainst criminal and CIVIL prosecution.Now this intruder, once he recuperates, is likely to hire a lawyer andsue the homeowner (who looks like he has a lot of money), and likelywilll make a few times more money this way than via his pastrobberies. California recently passed a law which prohibits a perpetrator from suing for any injuries incurred during the course of the commission of a felony. As it should be.

I am greatly pleased and rather surprised. Can you give some cites?

i

On 4 Jan 2004 19:17:02 GMT, Ignoramus18675
<ignoramus18675@NOSPAM.18675.invalid> wrote:
California recently passed a law which prohibits a perpetrator from suing for any injuries incurred during the course of the commission of a felony. As it should be.I am greatly pleased and rather surprised. Can you give some cites?i

California Civil Code Sec 3333.3:

"In any action for damages based on negligence, a person may
not recover any damages if the plaintiff's injuries were in any way
proximately caused by the plaintiff's commission of any felony, or
immediate flight therefrom, and the plaintiff has been duly convicted
of that felony."

If you don't have access to California codes, go to
http://www.netlawlibraries.com, click on "Cal. Codes", check the box
in front of "Civil Code", and run a seach on 3333.3.

It took a long time to get this one on the books (it didn't become law
until the 1990's, as the result of a ballot proposition) but it is
there now. This one belongs on the books in every state.

Kendricks

In article <3ff8eb5d.529005@news.cis.dfn.de>, JFK wrote: On 4 Jan 2004 19:17:02 GMT, Ignoramus18675<ignoramus18675@NOSPAM.18675.invalid> wrote: California recently passed a law which prohibits a perpetrator from suing for any injuries incurred during the course of the commission of a felony. As it should be.I am greatly pleased and rather surprised. Can you give some cites?i California Civil Code Sec 3333.3: "In any action for damages based on negligence, a person may

that's "based on negligence".

If the intruder who was shot, later sues the homeowner, that would not
be for homeowner's negligence.

This statute seems for cases like when someone breaks in to steal
stuff, slips on the slippery floor and breeaks a leg, or some such.
not recover any damages if the plaintiff's injuries were in any way proximately caused by the plaintiff's commission of any felony, or immediate flight therefrom, and the plaintiff has been duly convicted of that felony." If you don't have access to California codes, go to http://www.netlawlibraries.com, click on "Cal. Codes", check the box in front of "Civil Code", and run a seach on 3333.3. It took a long time to get this one on the books (it didn't become law until the 1990's, as the result of a ballot proposition) but it is there now. This one belongs on the books in every state. Kendricks

I think that the statute is great, but it does not cover self defense.

i

On 5 Jan 2004 14:37:25 GMT, Ignoramus32269
<ignoramus32269@NOSPAM.32269.invalid> wrote:
I think that the statute is great, but it does not cover self defense.i


Self defense is already a recognized affirmative defense in
California:

CALIFORNIA CIVIL JURY INSTRUCTION 7.55
SELF-DEFENSE--DEFENSE OF OTHERS
A person may use reasonable force to defend [himself] [herself]
[__________] against harmful or offensive contact which [he] [she]
honestly and reasonably believes that another is about to inflict upon
[him] [her] [__________].

However, the person who acts in self defense may only use such
force as reasonably appears necessary under the existing
circumstances. [If the person resisting a harmful or offensive contact
uses excessive force, such person commits a battery as to such
excessive force.]

[Words alone no matter how objectionable or insulting, do not give
the offended person a right to use physical force against the person
who uttered them.] | TOP |

************************************************** **********************

Admittedly, this defense does not go as far as it should. Apparently,
you still can get sued for battery if you shoot some cocksucker who is
burglarizing your home, if the court finds that the shooting was
"excessive".

But, you cannot be sued for neglience by a felon for injuries received
in the commission of a felony.

In article <3ffa2800.81599964@news.cis.dfn.de>, JFK wrote: On 5 Jan 2004 14:37:25 GMT, Ignoramus32269<ignoramus32269@NOSPAM.32269.invalid> wrote:I think that the statute is great, but it does not cover self defense.i Self defense is already a recognized affirmative defense in California: CALIFORNIA CIVIL JURY INSTRUCTION 7.55 SELF-DEFENSE--DEFENSE OF OTHERS A person may use reasonable force to defend [himself] [herself] [__________] against harmful or offensive contact which [he] [she] honestly and reasonably believes that another is about to inflict upon [him] [her] [__________]. However, the person who acts in self defense may only use such force as reasonably appears necessary under the existing circumstances. [If the person resisting a harmful or offensive contact uses excessive force, such person commits a battery as to such excessive force.] [Words alone no matter how objectionable or insulting, do not give the offended person a right to use physical force against the person who uttered them.] | TOP | ************************************************** ********************** Admittedly, this defense does not go as far as it should. Apparently, you still can get sued for battery if you shoot some cocksucker who is burglarizing your home, if the court finds that the shooting was "excessive". But, you cannot be sued for neglience by a felon for injuries received in the commission of a felony.

Exactly. So, evidently I was right.

i

On 6 Jan 2004 14:39:18 GMT, Ignoramus15252
<ignoramus15252@NOSPAM.15252.invalid> wrote:
I think that the statute is great, but it does not cover self defense.i Self defense is already a recognized affirmative defense in California: CALIFORNIA CIVIL JURY INSTRUCTION 7.55 SELF-DEFENSE--DEFENSE OF OTHERS A person may use reasonable force to defend [himself] [herself] [__________] against harmful or offensive contact which [he] [she] honestly and reasonably believes that another is about to inflict upon [him] [her] [__________]. However, the person who acts in self defense may only use such force as reasonably appears necessary under the existing circumstances. [If the person resisting a harmful or offensive contact uses excessive force, such person commits a battery as to such excessive force.] [Words alone no matter how objectionable or insulting, do not give the offended person a right to use physical force against the person who uttered them.] | TOP | ************************************************** ********************** Admittedly, this defense does not go as far as it should. Apparently, you still can get sued for battery if you shoot some cocksucker who is burglarizing your home, if the court finds that the shooting was "excessive". But, you cannot be sued for neglience by a felon for injuries received in the commission of a felony.Exactly. So, evidently I was right.i

Congratulations.