My ex is ragging on me (again) about french-kissing my fiance in front
of our two daughters, ages 9 and 11. He claims the 11 year old is
complaining to him that it makes her embarrassed. I suspect he's the
one with the problem here, and if she is embarrassed, well, most
preteens are embarrassed by their parents in some way or another.

I don't see any harm in having my kids see an example of two loving,
affectionate adults in their lives. I do wonder if my daughter is
confused because she sees a contrast between her two homes - we're
openly affectionate and (if my ex hasn't changed since we were
married) he and his wife probably aren't so demonstrative.

Looking for advice here, in particular, if anyone has any links I can
point to that have an expert saying that the kids won't be harmed by
seeing such displays of affection. My ex will believe it if I show him
something written by an authority figure. Ideal would be some sort of
christian/catholic literature!

Of course, if anyone wants to take my ex's side in this and explain
why he might have a point, I'll try to keep an open mind. I was more
sensitive to his concerns before we got engaged, but sheesh! we're
engaged now! I am getting the impression this would bother him even if
we were married!! UGH!

jen

We are doing group hugging. What is it is, me, my wife and my son are
on the couch or holding the kidin our arms and all hug and
kiss. French kissing, I would try not to overdo it. Obviously your
daughter hugging and kissing your fiance would be viewed differently.

i

in article c8cb5319.0311241126.3c6cafb@posting.google.com, shinypenny at
shinypenny0001@yahoo.com wrote on 11/24/03 12:26 PM:
My ex is ragging on me (again) about french-kissing my fiance in front of our two daughters, ages 9 and 11. He claims the 11 year old is complaining to him that it makes her embarrassed. I suspect he's the one with the problem here, and if she is embarrassed, well, most preteens are embarrassed by their parents in some way or another. I don't see any harm in having my kids see an example of two loving, affectionate adults in their lives. I do wonder if my daughter is confused because she sees a contrast between her two homes - we're openly affectionate and (if my ex hasn't changed since we were married) he and his wife probably aren't so demonstrative. Looking for advice here, in particular, if anyone has any links I can point to that have an expert saying that the kids won't be harmed by seeing such displays of affection. My ex will believe it if I show him something written by an authority figure. Ideal would be some sort of christian/catholic literature! Of course, if anyone wants to take my ex's side in this and explain why he might have a point, I'll try to keep an open mind. I was more sensitive to his concerns before we got engaged, but sheesh! we're engaged now! I am getting the impression this would bother him even if we were married!! UGH! jen

Could we take your daughter's side and suggest that maybe your first
responsibility is to discuss this with your daughter, rather than finding
evidence to prove that it's okay to your ex. For another, you might want to
determine to what extent your ex is questioning your daughters on their life
at your house.

M.

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0311241126.3c6cafb@posting.google.co m... My ex is ragging on me (again) about french-kissing my fiance in front of our two daughters, ages 9 and 11. He claims the 11 year old is complaining to him that it makes her embarrassed. I suspect he's the one with the problem here, and if she is embarrassed, well, most preteens are embarrassed by their parents in some way or another. I don't see any harm in having my kids see an example of two loving, affectionate adults in their lives. I do wonder if my daughter is confused because she sees a contrast between her two homes - we're openly affectionate and (if my ex hasn't changed since we were married) he and his wife probably aren't so demonstrative. Looking for advice here, in particular, if anyone has any links I can point to that have an expert saying that the kids won't be harmed by seeing such displays of affection. My ex will believe it if I show him something written by an authority figure. Ideal would be some sort of christian/catholic literature! Of course, if anyone wants to take my ex's side in this and explain why he might have a point, I'll try to keep an open mind. I was more sensitive to his concerns before we got engaged, but sheesh! we're engaged now! I am getting the impression this would bother him even if we were married!! UGH!

I don't mind most public displays of affection, and I'm far from a prude,
but to me, french kissing in public is kinda a kid thing to do. I would get
uncomfortable if I were out to dinner with another couple and they started
french kissing at the table.

Why do you feel the need to french kiss in front of your kids? Why not do
the crotch grab, too?

And do you do this in front of your ex? I'd assume no, so how does he know,
unless your kids told him.

shinypenny wrote:
Looking for advice here, in particular, if anyone has any links I can point to that have an expert saying that the kids won't be harmed by seeing such displays of affection.

I don't have any link to expert opinion, nor would I care one bit about what
*experts* have to say if I was in your position. Your daughter says she is
embarrassed (I guess it means she feels uncomfortable), and that is all the
expert opinion you should need. My kids have told my husband and I, clearly,
that they don't like to see us "make out" in front of them. This has nothing to
do with showing affection by the way.
My ex will believe it if I show him something written by an authority figure. Ideal would be some sort of christian/catholic literature!

You may find something to satisfy your ex, but that doesn't help your daughter.
Of course, if anyone wants to take my ex's side in this and explain why he might have a point, I'll try to keep an open mind.

I am not taking his side. It's not important how he feels, but you may want to
talk to your daughter about how she feels. Of course you have to be careful, she
may be inclined to play it "cool" by saying "sure mom, smooch away, I don't
mind". It's up to you to make sure she is comfortable enought to openly express
her true feelings.
I was more sensitive to his concerns before we got engaged, but sheesh! we're engaged now! I am getting the impression this would bother him even if we were married!! UGH!

Well, if they are like our kids, being married has nothing to do with it. It's
seeing their parents doing things that they are quite sensitive about at that
age.

shinypenny wrote: My ex is ragging on me (again) about french-kissing my fiance in front of our two daughters, ages 9 and 11. He claims the 11 year old is complaining to him that it makes her embarrassed. I suspect he's the one with the problem here, and if she is embarrassed, well, most preteens are embarrassed by their parents in some way or another. I don't see any harm in having my kids see an example of two loving, affectionate adults in their lives. I do wonder if my daughter is confused because she sees a contrast between her two homes - we're openly affectionate and (if my ex hasn't changed since we were married) he and his wife probably aren't so demonstrative. Looking for advice here, in particular, if anyone has any links I can point to that have an expert saying that the kids won't be harmed by seeing such displays of affection. My ex will believe it if I show him something written by an authority figure. Ideal would be some sort of christian/catholic literature! Of course, if anyone wants to take my ex's side in this and explain why he might have a point, I'll try to keep an open mind. I was more sensitive to his concerns before we got engaged, but sheesh! we're engaged now! I am getting the impression this would bother him even if we were married!! UGH! jen
Unfortunately, I agree with your ex. French kissing in public is
inappropriate in front of anyone, much less your kids. Feel free to
hold hands, put arms around each other, sit next to each other, etc.
This is more demonstrative of two people in love than frenching in
public. It says not only do I love this person and want to show it, I
also like them....Frenching says I lust after this person.

shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) wrote in message news:<c8cb5319.0311241126.3c6cafb@posting.google.com>... My ex is ragging on me (again) about french-kissing my fiance in front of our two daughters, ages 9 and 11. He claims the 11 year old is complaining to him that it makes her embarrassed. I suspect he's the one with the problem here, and if she is embarrassed, well, most preteens are embarrassed by their parents in some way or another. I don't see any harm in having my kids see an example of two loving, affectionate adults in their lives. I do wonder if my daughter is confused because she sees a contrast between her two homes - we're openly affectionate and (if my ex hasn't changed since we were married) he and his wife probably aren't so demonstrative. Looking for advice here, in particular, if anyone has any links I can point to that have an expert saying that the kids won't be harmed by seeing such displays of affection. My ex will believe it if I show him something written by an authority figure. Ideal would be some sort of christian/catholic literature! Of course, if anyone wants to take my ex's side in this and explain why he might have a point, I'll try to keep an open mind. I was more sensitive to his concerns before we got engaged, but sheesh! we're engaged now! I am getting the impression this would bother him even if we were married!! UGH! jen


There probably isn't a universal right or wrong. For me personally,
making out is a one on one activity and I consider it generally rude
to do that in the presence of other adults or kids.

If we're taking about a relatively short French Kiss as part of a
greeting or a good bye I don't see anything terribly wrong with it,
-although my wife and I usually don't do that in front of the kids.

Perhaps you should be less worried about your ex's reaction and more
worried about your kid's. Apparently your 11 year old has some issue
with it because she mentioned it to your ex and you might want to talk
to her about it rather than just writing off as just typical pre-teen
embarassment regarding their parents. If nothing else she could be
having some difficulty accepting that this new guy is really going to
be your husband and her step dad.

You are kidding right?

"JWB" <
But did you french kiss in front of your kids? A simple yes or no will do. JWB No it won't. I have criteria. What on earth makes you think it's that simple? Because the answer to the question is a simple answer. Either you french kiss(ed) in front of your kids, or you did not. This is not about showing affection or whether your kids are aware you screw (like you posted). You can show an awful lot of affection without french kissing.

When my oldest son was 4 months old we did more than *french kiss*.

There, that is one answer. My criteria is appropriateness. What is
appropriate for
any moment is wholly dependent on the moment itself. The answer is yes. I
have
kissed my wife passionately in front of my children on more than one
occasion.
I kissed her that way in front of them, their wives, all of my family and
friends and
all of my youngest sons new wife's family and friends at their wedding. I
held her
in my arms and kissed her like I meant it. I really did mean it. I am not
ashamed
of my love for her.

My kids (all of whom are in their mid 30's), usually react in the same way.
They
shield their faces as though I were Dracula and say "Aw... we don't want to
see thaaaatt!"
But I see that their behavior often belies their words. I see them with
their wives. I see
that their wives appreciate them for the loving, men that they have become.
I guess it was all Estelle, who by the way was at the other end of those
kisses, and
also has her eye out for appropriateness.

I like to kiss. I'm good at it. I do it like they do it in the movies.

Did you ever kiss your wife in front of anyone else? Do you feel shame?

Michael <erosewater@ziplip.com> wrote in message news:<BBE7B5CF.23975%erosewater@ziplip.com>... Could we take your daughter's side and suggest that maybe your first responsibility is to discuss this with your daughter,

I have discussed this with her previously. I do plan to bring it up
with her again when she returns.
rather than finding evidence to prove that it's okay to your ex.

Yes... I'm calmed down now and realize I have nothing to prove to him.
For another, you might want to determine to what extent your ex is questioning your daughters on their life at your house.

I think it all came about not because he was questioning them, but
because of his ill-timed phone call. Now that I think of it, it
must've sounded strange to him.

Neither one of us makes a habit of drilling the kids about details of
the others' life. But irregardless, things come out of their mouths
anyway. When it happens at my house, I keep my mouth shut and mind my
own business.

jen

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:LY-dndRz8ru-TF-i4p2dnA@comcast.com... "JWB" < > But did you french kiss in front of your kids? A simple yes or no
will do. > > JWB No it won't. I have criteria. What on earth makes you think it's that simple? Because the answer to the question is a simple answer. Either you french kiss(ed) in front of your kids, or you did not. This is not about
showing affection or whether your kids are aware you screw (like you posted).
You can show an awful lot of affection without french kissing. When my oldest son was 4 months old we did more than *french kiss*.


In your effort to make this "point", you look kinda silly. But pat yourself
on the back, for indeed, that is in front of the children.


There, that is one answer. My criteria is appropriateness. What is appropriate for any moment is wholly dependent on the moment itself. The answer is yes. I have kissed my wife passionately in front of my children on more than one occasion. I kissed her that way in front of them, their wives, all of my family and friends and all of my youngest sons new wife's family and friends at their wedding. I held her in my arms and kissed her like I meant it. I really did mean it. I am not ashamed of my love for her. My kids (all of whom are in their mid 30's), usually react in the same
way. They shield their faces as though I were Dracula and say "Aw... we don't want
to see thaaaatt!" But I see that their behavior often belies their words. I see them with their wives. I see that their wives appreciate them for the loving, men that they have
become. I guess it was all Estelle, who by the way was at the other end of those kisses, and also has her eye out for appropriateness. I like to kiss. I'm good at it. I do it like they do it in the movies. Did you ever kiss your wife in front of anyone else? Do you feel shame?


Of course. I would kiss her in front of anyone. I kiss her like I mean it as
well. I do not shove my tongue down her throat in front of other people,
which is the topic, and which you *still* have not answered.

JWB

"Tai" <taitrytwo_remove_bleh@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<bpu44p$1t7qdu$1@ID-123442.news.uni-berlin.de>...
lol Well, I must have misunderstood you then! To me "french kissing" is the open mouthed kind with duelling and exploratory tongues. If you're talking about a smoochy kiss that goes on for 10 - 20 seconds but isn't repeated again almost immediately and which doesn't involve panting and rearranged clothing then that's a different thing.

Yes, that's what I'm talking about! A vertical, completely clothed
10-20 second smooch hello at the end of the day, involving a bit of
tongue -- but not duelling and exploratory!
I guess it depends on how much of that you're doing at any one time whether it turns from a display to an exhibition.

We are a demonstrative couple. We always hold hands and tell each
other we love each other. He has been known to get down on his knee
and sing a love song to me in front of the kids.

Oh well. I like that about us and hope we are the same way when we're
80!!

jen

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0311241126.3c6cafb@posting.google.co m... My ex is ragging on me (again) about french-kissing my fiance in front of our two daughters, ages 9 and 11. He claims the 11 year old is complaining to him that it makes her embarrassed. I suspect he's the one with the problem here, and if she is embarrassed, well, most preteens are embarrassed by their parents in some way or another.

When your daughters are, let's say, 19 and 21--do you think you'd be
uncomfortably if they french kissed in front of you? (Not each other, silly
goose! Some other object of affectin, natch.) Would you french kiss in front
of your own mom?

This was on Dr. Phil the other day ('cept it was a large black women, so I'm
pretty sure it wasn't you). Dr. Phil said to cut it out, and that her
teenaged daughter was perfectly correct in thinking it was excessive.

jinglebells5555@yahoo.com (Jingle Bells) wrote in message news:<f804e152.0311241545.249d300f@posting.google.com>...
Perhaps you should be less worried about your ex's reaction and more worried about your kid's. Apparently your 11 year old has some issue with it because she mentioned it to your ex and you might want to talk to her about it rather than just writing off as just typical pre-teen embarassment regarding their parents. If nothing else she could be having some difficulty accepting that this new guy is really going to be your husband and her step dad.

No, I don't have any reason to believe she's having trouble accepting
my fiance. Heck, she's got the whole wedding planned for me already.
She's very excited about it.

I suspect that she's mostly feeling conflicted about the two types of
relationships she sees in her life: one is quite demonstrative, the
other is not. If you're 11, how do you reconcile the two in your mind?

jen

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0311242026.320361@posting.google.com ... "Tai" <taitrytwo_remove_bleh@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<bpu44p$1t7qdu$1@ID-123442.news.uni-berlin.de>... lol Well, I must have misunderstood you then! To me "french kissing" is the
open mouthed kind with duelling and exploratory tongues. If you're talking
about a smoochy kiss that goes on for 10 - 20 seconds but isn't repeated again almost immediately and which doesn't involve panting and rearranged
clothing then that's a different thing. Yes, that's what I'm talking about! A vertical, completely clothed 10-20 second smooch hello at the end of the day, involving a bit of tongue -- but not duelling and exploratory!

Well, that sounds a lot different than what you first mentioned.

But I still don't like watching other people do the tongue thing, unless I'm
watching porn or something. And I *like* to french kiss. And I have no
problem kissing or being affectionate with my wife in front of others. I
just don't find the tongue thing appropriate for mixed company, and don't
see why anyone would think it necessary. But that's just me.

I will caution you - I don't know the relationship you have with your ex,
but on the surface, I don't see this as a wise battle to fight.

Also, now you're bringing in "how much tongue in front of others" is ok . In
5 years, when you object to your 16 year old daughter sucking serious face
with her boyfriend, she'll say "well, you slipped "x" the tongue in front of
us, what's the problem?"

It just seems to me like a silly place to make your stand.

JWB

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0311242037.50cc1adc@posting.google.c om... jinglebells5555@yahoo.com (Jingle Bells) wrote in message
news:<f804e152.0311241545.249d300f@posting.google.com>... Perhaps you should be less worried about your ex's reaction and more worried about your kid's. Apparently your 11 year old has some issue with it because she mentioned it to your ex and you might want to talk to her about it rather than just writing off as just typical pre-teen embarassment regarding their parents. If nothing else she could be having some difficulty accepting that this new guy is really going to be your husband and her step dad. No, I don't have any reason to believe she's having trouble accepting my fiance. Heck, she's got the whole wedding planned for me already. She's very excited about it. I suspect that she's mostly feeling conflicted about the two types of relationships she sees in her life: one is quite demonstrative, the other is not. If you're 11, how do you reconcile the two in your mind?

and it might be, like I would guess most people, she doesn't want to watch
others swap tongues in person.

in article c8cb5319.0311242000.291f5135@posting.google.com, shinypenny at
shinypenny0001@yahoo.com wrote on 11/24/03 9:00 PM:
Michael <erosewater@ziplip.com> wrote in message news:<BBE7B5CF.23975%erosewater@ziplip.com>... Could we take your daughter's side and suggest that maybe your first responsibility is to discuss this with your daughter, I have discussed this with her previously. I do plan to bring it up with her again when she returns. rather than finding evidence to prove that it's okay to your ex. Yes... I'm calmed down now and realize I have nothing to prove to him. For another, you might want to determine to what extent your ex is questioning your daughters on their life at your house. I think it all came about not because he was questioning them, but because of his ill-timed phone call. Now that I think of it, it must've sounded strange to him. Neither one of us makes a habit of drilling the kids about details of the others' life. But irregardless, things come out of their mouths anyway. When it happens at my house, I keep my mouth shut and mind my own business. jen

I saw from your follow-up that the circumstances were different than I
thought - based on your original post, I immediately associated it with my
divorced parents, who both troll for information about the other, even 10
years after they split. It's a freakin' nightmare.

What people arrange about their relationships is what they arrange, I think.
We don't french kiss in front of our kids, but I think some people would be
shocked by the amount of nudity around our house.

M.

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0311242037.50cc1adc@posting.google.c om...
I suspect that she's mostly feeling conflicted about the two types of relationships she sees in her life: one is quite demonstrative, the other is not. If you're 11, how do you reconcile the two in your mind?

Any 11 y/os here to answer that? That's a really good question Jen. Most of
us are the product of our upbringing so I think that if we are brought up
with two different sets of parents with two very different types of
relationships it could only be beneficial because ultimately we make up our
own minds how we will relate to others and the more examples we can follow
the better.

Amy

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0311242037.50cc1adc@posting.google.c om...
| jinglebells5555@yahoo.com (Jingle Bells) wrote in message
news:<f804e152.0311241545.249d300f@posting.google.com>...
|
| > Perhaps you should be less worried about your ex's reaction and more
| > worried about your kid's. Apparently your 11 year old has some issue
| > with it because she mentioned it to your ex and you might want to talk
| > to her about it rather than just writing off as just typical pre-teen
| > embarassment regarding their parents. If nothing else she could be
| > having some difficulty accepting that this new guy is really going to
| > be your husband and her step dad.
|
| No, I don't have any reason to believe she's having trouble accepting
| my fiance. Heck, she's got the whole wedding planned for me already.
| She's very excited about it.
|
| I suspect that she's mostly feeling conflicted about the two types of
| relationships she sees in her life: one is quite demonstrative, the
| other is not. If you're 11, how do you reconcile the two in your mind?
|
| jen

I say kiss away Jen; have fun. Sounds healthy to me and I think it's
refreshing to see. I love seeing my friends and family members getting a
little smoochy in front of others; it reaffirms to me that are happy
together.

"JWB" <jwbSPAMBEGONE3333@excite.com> wrote in message
news:rLAwb.274853$pT1.7958@twister.nyc.rr.com... "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:LY-dndRz8ru-TF-i4p2dnA@comcast.com... "JWB" < > > But did you french kiss in front of your kids? A simple yes or no will do. > > > > JWB > > No it won't. > > I have criteria. What on earth makes you think it's that simple? Because the answer to the question is a simple answer. Either you
french kiss(ed) in front of your kids, or you did not. This is not about showing affection or whether your kids are aware you screw (like you posted). You can show an awful lot of affection without french kissing. When my oldest son was 4 months old we did more than *french kiss*. In your effort to make this "point", you look kinda silly. But pat
yourself on the back, for indeed, that is in front of the children. There, that is one answer. My criteria is appropriateness. What is appropriate for any moment is wholly dependent on the moment itself. The answer is yes.
I have kissed my wife passionately in front of my children on more than one occasion. I kissed her that way in front of them, their wives, all of my family
and friends and all of my youngest sons new wife's family and friends at their wedding.
I held her in my arms and kissed her like I meant it. I really did mean it. I am
not ashamed of my love for her. My kids (all of whom are in their mid 30's), usually react in the same way. They shield their faces as though I were Dracula and say "Aw... we don't want to see thaaaatt!" But I see that their behavior often belies their words. I see them with their wives. I see that their wives appreciate them for the loving, men that they have become. I guess it was all Estelle, who by the way was at the other end of those kisses, and also has her eye out for appropriateness. I like to kiss. I'm good at it. I do it like they do it in the movies. Did you ever kiss your wife in front of anyone else? Do you feel shame? Of course. I would kiss her in front of anyone. I kiss her like I mean it
as well. I do not shove my tongue down her throat in front of other people, which is the topic, and which you *still* have not answered. JWB


Actually that is your interpretation of the topic. *French Kiss* apparently
means different things to different people.

I have learned that overt displays of physical affection (as opposed to
passion),
which I take to be the subject of this thread, vary from person to person,
family
to family and culture to culture.

I go back to what is appropriate. It is a matter of judgment. One would have
to
be there in order to know what is appropriate. Even with that, we bring our
history
to color what we see.

Did you ever witness your parents in an embrace? How did it effect you?
Is the effect lasting? These are the questions I would ask myself? This
is how I witness the world.

BTW: I could post a picture of Estelle and I in an embrace (at the wedding)
if that would satisfy your curiosity. It might be hard for you to tell what
I was doing
with my tongue though. Incidentally, what makes you think that it was my
tongue
down her throat and not the other way around? Do you assume that I am the
lustful person in this relationship? Are you projecting?

On 24 Nov 2003 20:00:21 -0800, shinypenny
<shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote: Michael <erosewater@ziplip.com> wrote in message news:<BBE7B5CF.23975%erosewater@ziplip.com>... Could we take your daughter's side and suggest that maybe your first responsibility is to discuss this with your daughter, I have discussed this with her previously. I do plan to bring it up with her again when she returns. rather than finding evidence to prove that it's okay to your ex. Yes... I'm calmed down now and realize I have nothing to prove to him. For another, you might want to determine to what extent your ex is questioning your daughters on their life at your house. I think it all came about not because he was questioning them, but because of his ill-timed phone call. Now that I think of it, it must've sounded strange to him. Neither one of us makes a habit of drilling the kids about details of the others' life. But irregardless, things come out of their mouths anyway. When it happens at my house, I keep my mouth shut and mind my own business.

I certainly hope you don't. I hope you listen to your children
*carefully* and determine whether or not what they are telling you signals
some sort of danger in their lives. And if it doesn't, *then* you keep
your mouth shut and mind your own business.
jen

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

"JWB" <jwbSPAMBEGONE3333@excite.com> wrote in message news:<heBwb.274855$pT1.24703@twister.nyc.rr.com>...
Well, that sounds a lot different than what you first mentioned. But I still don't like watching other people do the tongue thing, unless I'm watching porn or something. And I *like* to french kiss. And I have no problem kissing or being affectionate with my wife in front of others. I just don't find the tongue thing appropriate for mixed company, and don't see why anyone would think it necessary. But that's just me.

If you ever come to my house, JWB, I'll refrain from too much
smooching around you! LOL! We don't act this way out in public and we
definetly refrain around the kids' friends. But inside the privacy of
my own house? That's different.

I will caution you - I don't know the relationship you have with your ex, but on the surface, I don't see this as a wise battle to fight. Also, now you're bringing in "how much tongue in front of others" is ok . In 5 years, when you object to your 16 year old daughter sucking serious face with her boyfriend, she'll say "well, you slipped "x" the tongue in front of us, what's the problem?"

I'll tell her that there's a big difference between a 38-year-old
woman who pays her own mortgage and a 16 year old who still lives at
home with her mother. When she's responsible enough to pay her own
mortgage and live on her own, she can do what she wants to do and I
will respect that she's demonstrated that she's mature enough to make
her own decisions for her life. Until then, I get to help guide her in
those decisions, and if I see a situation that I think is getting too
heated for her to handle, I will step in and say something.

My ex, incidentally, used this same argument when he objected to my
living with my fiance. "What will you do when our 16 year old daughter
wants her boyfriend to sleep over? If you say no, she'll accuse you of
being a hypocrite." It amazes me that people don't see a big
difference between a 38 year old and a 16 year old!

It just seems to me like a silly place to make your stand.

I'm calmed down about it now. He caught me off guard yesterday and I
was flustered. Now that I think about it, he must be getting a curious
impression of what goes on in my house! LOL! His imagination is
probably running wild.

jen

"Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message
news:slrnbs6s4f.mm9.tony@home.cigardiary.com...
Then invite them into the bedroom next time.</sarcasm> I find in some cases, 'being honest' (sometimes termed 'being brutally honest') is used as an excuse when we're doing something hurtful we want to continue doing.

totally agree. People can convince themselves that anything is ok.

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0311250822.1426d515@posting.google.c om... "JWB" <jwbSPAMBEGONE3333@excite.com> wrote in message
news:<heBwb.274855$pT1.24703@twister.nyc.rr.com>... Well, that sounds a lot different than what you first mentioned. But I still don't like watching other people do the tongue thing, unless
I'm watching porn or something. And I *like* to french kiss. And I have no problem kissing or being affectionate with my wife in front of others. I just don't find the tongue thing appropriate for mixed company, and
don't see why anyone would think it necessary. But that's just me. If you ever come to my house, JWB, I'll refrain from too much smooching around you! LOL! We don't act this way out in public and we definetly refrain around the kids' friends. But inside the privacy of my own house? That's different.

I have no problem with smooching or most any other public displays of
affection.

But I'm puzzled - why would you refrain in front of your kids friends, but
not in front of your kids?

Let's be very clear here, because it's an easy thing to misinterpret
(already many have, and assume that anyone against what you posted is
against public displays of affection - not true).

Do you slip tongues in front of the kids, but not in front of strangers
and/or the kids friends?

I will caution you - I don't know the relationship you have with your
ex, but on the surface, I don't see this as a wise battle to fight. Also, now you're bringing in "how much tongue in front of others" is ok
.. In 5 years, when you object to your 16 year old daughter sucking serious
face with her boyfriend, she'll say "well, you slipped "x" the tongue in
front of us, what's the problem?" I'll tell her that there's a big difference between a 38-year-old woman who pays her own mortgage and a 16 year old who still lives at home with her mother.


How is it different in this case?


When she's responsible enough to pay her own mortgage and live on her own, she can do what she wants to do and I will respect that she's demonstrated that she's mature enough to make her own decisions for her life. Until then, I get to help guide her in those decisions, and if I see a situation that I think is getting too heated for her to handle, I will step in and say something.


But you're slipping tongues in front of her, letting her know this is normal
and ok. You're not holding your mortgage as you do it saying "see, this is a
benefit of home ownership - tax writeoffs AND tongue!!"

My ex, incidentally, used this same argument when he objected to my living with my fiance. "What will you do when our 16 year old daughter wants her boyfriend to sleep over? If you say no, she'll accuse you of being a hypocrite." It amazes me that people don't see a big difference between a 38 year old and a 16 year old!

So, on one hand, you're saying your 11 year old is confused about affection
at your house and no affection at your ex's house (another post), and on the
other hand, you say your 11 year old is supposed to be crystal clear that
it's ok for mom to do this because she owns the house, but it won't be ok
for her until (whenever).

Like it or not, your behaviour *does* set an example. Would you smoke pot in
front of her and say "I can do it because I'm an adult"? Or get excessively
drunk? It's the same issue.

It just seems to me like a silly place to make your stand. I'm calmed down about it now. He caught me off guard yesterday and I was flustered. Now that I think about it, he must be getting a curious impression of what goes on in my house! LOL! His imagination is probably running wild.


Methinks you care about what he thinks a little too much. Sorry.

JWB

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:mnKwb.3685$ML.1144@nwrdny02.gnilink.net... "JWB" <jwbSPAMBEGONE3333@excite.com> wrote in message news:rLAwb.274853$pT1.7958@twister.nyc.rr.com... "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:LY-dndRz8ru-TF-i4p2dnA@comcast.com... "JWB" < > > > But did you french kiss in front of your kids? A simple yes or
no will > do. > > > > > > JWB > > > > No it won't. > > > > I have criteria. What on earth makes you think it's that simple? > > Because the answer to the question is a simple answer. Either you french > kiss(ed) in front of your kids, or you did not. This is not about showing > affection or whether your kids are aware you screw (like you
posted). You > can show an awful lot of affection without french kissing. When my oldest son was 4 months old we did more than *french kiss*. In your effort to make this "point", you look kinda silly. But pat yourself on the back, for indeed, that is in front of the children. There, that is one answer. My criteria is appropriateness. What is appropriate for any moment is wholly dependent on the moment itself. The answer is
yes. I have kissed my wife passionately in front of my children on more than one occasion. I kissed her that way in front of them, their wives, all of my family and friends and all of my youngest sons new wife's family and friends at their
wedding. I held her in my arms and kissed her like I meant it. I really did mean it. I am not ashamed of my love for her. My kids (all of whom are in their mid 30's), usually react in the same way. They shield their faces as though I were Dracula and say "Aw... we don't
want to see thaaaatt!" But I see that their behavior often belies their words. I see them
with their wives. I see that their wives appreciate them for the loving, men that they have become. I guess it was all Estelle, who by the way was at the other end of
those kisses, and also has her eye out for appropriateness. I like to kiss. I'm good at it. I do it like they do it in the movies. Did you ever kiss your wife in front of anyone else? Do you feel
shame? Of course. I would kiss her in front of anyone. I kiss her like I mean
it as well. I do not shove my tongue down her throat in front of other people, which is the topic, and which you *still* have not answered. JWB Actually that is your interpretation of the topic. *French Kiss*
apparently means different things to different people. I have learned that overt displays of physical affection (as opposed to passion), which I take to be the subject of this thread, vary from person to person, family to family and culture to culture. I go back to what is appropriate. It is a matter of judgment. One would
have to be there in order to know what is appropriate. Even with that, we bring
our history to color what we see. Did you ever witness your parents in an embrace? How did it effect you? Is the effect lasting? These are the questions I would ask myself? This is how I witness the world. BTW: I could post a picture of Estelle and I in an embrace (at the
wedding) if that would satisfy your curiosity. It might be hard for you to tell
what I was doing with my tongue though. Incidentally, what makes you think that it was my tongue down her throat and not the other way around? Do you assume that I am the lustful person in this relationship? Are you projecting?

you are very difficult to have an intelligent conversation with (you always
have been). Am I projecting? Huh?

Are you stoned again?

JWB

On 25 Nov 2003 08:22:14 -0800, shinypenny
<shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote: "JWB" <jwbSPAMBEGONE3333@excite.com> wrote in message news:<heBwb.274855$pT1.24703@twister.nyc.rr.com>... Well, that sounds a lot different than what you first mentioned. But I still don't like watching other people do the tongue thing, unless I'm watching porn or something. And I *like* to french kiss. And I have no problem kissing or being affectionate with my wife in front of others. I just don't find the tongue thing appropriate for mixed company, and don't see why anyone would think it necessary. But that's just me. If you ever come to my house, JWB, I'll refrain from too much smooching around you! LOL! We don't act this way out in public and we definetly refrain around the kids' friends. But inside the privacy of my own house? That's different.

Now it's gone from "French kissing" to "smooching". My wife and I smooch
all the time, in front of the kids and not in front of the kids. I also
smooch my dog on the face. I don't "French" my dog, however. :)
I will caution you - I don't know the relationship you have with your ex, but on the surface, I don't see this as a wise battle to fight. Also, now you're bringing in "how much tongue in front of others" is ok . In 5 years, when you object to your 16 year old daughter sucking serious face with her boyfriend, she'll say "well, you slipped "x" the tongue in front of us, what's the problem?" I'll tell her that there's a big difference between a 38-year-old woman who pays her own mortgage and a 16 year old who still lives at home with her mother. When she's responsible enough to pay her own mortgage and live on her own, she can do what she wants to do and I will respect that she's demonstrated that she's mature enough to make her own decisions for her life. Until then, I get to help guide her in those decisions, and if I see a situation that I think is getting too heated for her to handle, I will step in and say something.

Cool, "do what I say, not what I do". :)
My ex, incidentally, used this same argument when he objected to my living with my fiance. "What will you do when our 16 year old daughter wants her boyfriend to sleep over? If you say no, she'll accuse you of being a hypocrite." It amazes me that people don't see a big difference between a 38 year old and a 16 year old!

There's isn't a big difference, except that the 16 year old is supposed to
act that way.
It just seems to me like a silly place to make your stand. I'm calmed down about it now. He caught me off guard yesterday and I was flustered. Now that I think about it, he must be getting a curious impression of what goes on in my house! LOL! His imagination is probably running wild.

So have you decided to stop Frenching in front of the kids or not? (Or
have you justified it to your self with Christian documentation that
agrees with you.)
jen

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

"JWB" <jwbSPAMBEGONE3333@excite.com> wrote in message
news:e6Mwb.275412$pT1.273783@twister.nyc.rr.com... "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:mnKwb.3685$ML.1144@nwrdny02.gnilink.net... "JWB" <jwbSPAMBEGONE3333@excite.com> wrote in message news:rLAwb.274853$pT1.7958@twister.nyc.rr.com... "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:LY-dndRz8ru-TF-i4p2dnA@comcast.com... > > "JWB" < > > > > > But did you french kiss in front of your kids? A simple yes or no will > > do. > > > > > > > > JWB > > > > > > No it won't. > > > > > > I have criteria. What on earth makes you think it's that
simple? > > > > Because the answer to the question is a simple answer. Either you french > > kiss(ed) in front of your kids, or you did not. This is not about showing > > affection or whether your kids are aware you screw (like you posted). You > > can show an awful lot of affection without french kissing. > > When my oldest son was 4 months old we did more than *french kiss*. In your effort to make this "point", you look kinda silly. But pat yourself on the back, for indeed, that is in front of the children. > > There, that is one answer. My criteria is appropriateness. What is > appropriate for > any moment is wholly dependent on the moment itself. The answer is yes. I > have > kissed my wife passionately in front of my children on more than one > occasion. > I kissed her that way in front of them, their wives, all of my
family and > friends and > all of my youngest sons new wife's family and friends at their wedding. I > held her > in my arms and kissed her like I meant it. I really did mean it. I
am not > ashamed > of my love for her. > > My kids (all of whom are in their mid 30's), usually react in the
same way. > They > shield their faces as though I were Dracula and say "Aw... we don't want to > see thaaaatt!" > But I see that their behavior often belies their words. I see them with > their wives. I see > that their wives appreciate them for the loving, men that they have become. > I guess it was all Estelle, who by the way was at the other end of those > kisses, and > also has her eye out for appropriateness. > > I like to kiss. I'm good at it. I do it like they do it in the
movies. > > Did you ever kiss your wife in front of anyone else? Do you feel shame? Of course. I would kiss her in front of anyone. I kiss her like I mean it as well. I do not shove my tongue down her throat in front of other
people, which is the topic, and which you *still* have not answered. JWB Actually that is your interpretation of the topic. *French Kiss* apparently means different things to different people. I have learned that overt displays of physical affection (as opposed to passion), which I take to be the subject of this thread, vary from person to
person, family to family and culture to culture. I go back to what is appropriate. It is a matter of judgment. One would have to be there in order to know what is appropriate. Even with that, we bring our history to color what we see. Did you ever witness your parents in an embrace? How did it effect you? Is the effect lasting? These are the questions I would ask myself? This is how I witness the world. BTW: I could post a picture of Estelle and I in an embrace (at the wedding) if that would satisfy your curiosity. It might be hard for you to tell what I was doing with my tongue though. Incidentally, what makes you think that it was my tongue down her throat and not the other way around? Do you assume that I am
the lustful person in this relationship? Are you projecting?

you are very difficult to have an intelligent conversation with (you
always have been). Am I projecting? Huh? Are you stoned again? JWB

Maybe I am difficult because I'm not very intellegent. I thought that what I
said was clear.
What is it exactly that you are looking for?

*Projecting* - Putting yourself into the circumstances that you are
questioning. Specifically,
do you put your tongue down your wife's throat or does she put her tongue
down yours.

No, I am not stoned. Last night I was a bit tipsy from Ouzo (which I'm not
used to) when I posted.
Here, it is the middle of the day and it's not appropriate to be stoned.
That could change by tonight
although I will have to wait until after my workout at the gym. In the
privacy of my home, alone with
my wife, it might turn out to be appropriate for the moment.

I notice that I asked several questions of you which you also artfully
sidestepped or ignored.
I love you anyway. The answers don't really matter now do they, we are just
having a
conversation (intellegent or otherwise).

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:o1Nwb.3804$ML.3377@nwrdny02.gnilink.net...

Maybe I am difficult because I'm not very intellegent. I thought that what
I said was clear. What is it exactly that you are looking for?


the thread was about french (tongue) kissing in front of your kids. That's
it. You completely sidestepped it.

*Projecting* - Putting yourself into the circumstances that you are questioning. Specifically, do you put your tongue down your wife's throat or does she put her tongue down yours.


what does that have to do with anything that we are talking about? If you
must know, though, it's probably 60-40, me.

No, I am not stoned. Last night I was a bit tipsy from Ouzo (which I'm not used to) when I posted. Here, it is the middle of the day and it's not appropriate to be stoned. That could change by tonight although I will have to wait until after my workout at the gym. In the privacy of my home, alone with my wife, it might turn out to be appropriate for the moment. I notice that I asked several questions of you which you also artfully sidestepped or ignored.


Like what? I admit I do ignore things that I feel steer the conversation
away from the topic.


I love you anyway. The answers don't really matter now do they, we are
just having a conversation (intellegent or otherwise).

You love me? Why? I mean, I like you and all, Urf, but I'm not so sure
"love" enters into it. Or do you love all people?

JWB (doesn't love all people... doesn't even like most people..)

"Tony Miller" <tony@cigardiary.com> wrote in message
news:slrnbs76ba.mro.tony@home.cigardiary.com... On 25 Nov 2003 08:22:14 -0800, shinypenny <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote: "JWB" <jwbSPAMBEGONE3333@excite.com> wrote in message
news:<heBwb.274855$pT1.24703@twister.nyc.rr.com>... Well, that sounds a lot different than what you first mentioned. But I still don't like watching other people do the tongue thing,
unless I'm watching porn or something. And I *like* to french kiss. And I have no problem kissing or being affectionate with my wife in front of others.
I just don't find the tongue thing appropriate for mixed company, and
don't see why anyone would think it necessary. But that's just me. If you ever come to my house, JWB, I'll refrain from too much smooching around you! LOL! We don't act this way out in public and we definetly refrain around the kids' friends. But inside the privacy of my own house? That's different. Now it's gone from "French kissing" to "smooching". My wife and I smooch all the time, in front of the kids and not in front of the kids. I also smooch my dog on the face. I don't "French" my dog, however. :)

That seems to be the big defense, here.

JWB

Coorslte <ringram@flash.net> wrote in message news:<_ewwb.48$2t.14@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>...
It says not only do I love this person and want to show it, I also like them....Frenching says I lust after this person.

Uh... what's wrong with lusting after the person you love?

JEN

On 25 Nov 2003 12:27:12 -0800, shinypenny
<shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote: Coorslte <ringram@flash.net> wrote in message news:<_ewwb.48$2t.14@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>... It says not only do I love this person and want to show it, I also like them....Frenching says I lust after this person. Uh... what's wrong with lusting after the person you love?

Lust, by nature objectifies the object of your lust by concentrating on
your gratification. My 2 cents ;)

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

In article <c8cb5319.0311251227.1c6763a8@posting.google.com>,
shinypenny <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote:
Uh... what's wrong with lusting after the person you love?

Or anyone else, for that matter...

Ted

In article <slrnbs7g02.muq.tony@home.cigardiary.com>, Tony Miller
<tony@cigardiary.com> wrote:
Lust, by nature objectifies the object of your lust by concentrating on your gratification. My 2 cents ;)

You lust your way, I'll lust mine...

Ted

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0311251227.1c6763a8@posting.google.c om... Coorslte <ringram@flash.net> wrote in message
news:<_ewwb.48$2t.14@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>... It says not only do I love this person and want to show it, I also like them....Frenching says I lust after this person. Uh... what's wrong with lusting after the person you love?

Nothing. But we're talking about what's appropriate in front of the kids.

I see a bit of a pattern here - you're kinda skewing any negative argument
to read akin to "what, I can't show any affection in front of the kids?" or
"what's wrong with lusting?". You took Coorslte's entire post and summarized
that he/she said it wasn't right to lust after the person you love. That
wasn't the argument at all. But it seems to be all you wanted to see. The
way I see it, Jen, is you're trying VERY hard to "justify" your behavior.

To answer, *nothing* is wrong with lusting or showing affection. "Lusting"
or tongue kissing in front of your 11 year old kid is distasteful, imho. I
think most adults would agree with that.

Listen, if you *must* twirl tongues in front of the kids, nothing we say is
going to stop you. Go right ahead. But don't make it seem like "gee, I'm
just showing affection - what's wrong with that?" or "we're just being
honest about our love"

JWB

shinypenny wrote:
I'll tell her that there's a big difference between a 38-year-old woman who pays her own mortgage and a 16 year old who still lives at home with her mother. When she's responsible enough to pay her own mortgage and live on her own, she can do what she wants to do and I will respect that she's demonstrated that she's mature enough to make her own decisions for her life.

Jen, what's your goal here? Are you attempting to show your children that you are a responsible adult and as
such have a right to do as you please? If that's the case, then you should do as you please without any
concern. And if a scenario comes up that your daughter challenges you on something that she wants to do, you
can exert your authority as you said above. She may or may not give you a hard time, but that can happen no
matter what you do (on not do).

I assumed that your goal is to do what is *right* for your children. In that case, it's irrelevant whether
you have a right to do what you want, IF it affects your children negatively. Only you can decide how your
children truly feel about the forms of *affection* you want to show in front of them. But if you sincerely
wanted to make them feel comfortable and secure, as well as developing a healthy value system, it's important
that you try to tune into them, understand their feelings, and adjust your behavior to create the best
environment for them. None of us know the dynamics in your house, or how your children feel about this. But I
think that your focus should be on what is right for *them* and not what is your right to do.

On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 21:08:45 GMT, Seeker
<anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote: In article <slrnbs7g02.muq.tony@home.cigardiary.com>, Tony Miller<tony@cigardiary.com> wrote: Lust, by nature objectifies the object of your lust by concentrating on your gratification. My 2 cents ;) You lust your way, I'll lust mine...

Go for it, Ted. Your left hand doesn't care that "she" is simply an
object. :)
Ted

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

On 24 Nov 2003 11:26:58 -0800, shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny)
wrote:
My ex is ragging on me (again) about french-kissing my fiance in frontof our two daughters, ages 9 and 11. He claims the 11 year old iscomplaining to him that it makes her embarrassed. I suspect he's theone with the problem here, and if she is embarrassed, well, mostpreteens are embarrassed by their parents in some way or another.I don't see any harm in having my kids see an example of two loving,affectionate adults in their lives. I do wonder if my daughter isconfused because she sees a contrast between her two homes - we'reopenly affectionate and (if my ex hasn't changed since we weremarried) he and his wife probably aren't so demonstrative.Looking for advice here, in particular, if anyone has any links I canpoint to that have an expert saying that the kids won't be harmed byseeing such displays of affection. My ex will believe it if I show himsomething written by an authority figure. Ideal would be some sort ofchristian/catholic literature!Of course, if anyone wants to take my ex's side in this and explainwhy he might have a point, I'll try to keep an open mind. I was moresensitive to his concerns before we got engaged, but sheesh! we'reengaged now! I am getting the impression this would bother him even ifwe were married!! UGH!jen

The only barometer should be...your daughter.

If it REALLY bothers her...i.e., if she's confiding in him something
that she can't comfortably tell you...stop it.

But, on a personal level...

I think French kissing is a little beyond a simple display of
affection. I wouldn't do it...no matter how old my kids were.

It should be a private thing.

Affection doesn't hafta be displayed in French. It can be done in
simple English, too! lol


Have a nice week...

Gus

Certified breast self-exam subcontractor.

On 24 Nov 2003 19:53:52 -0800, shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny)
wrote:
His wife moved in before they were married. They kept up theappearances of separate bedrooms around the children, and as soon asthey were gone, slept in the same bed.I would much rather be honest with my children.

Children should not hafta bear the burden of ADULT honesty.

That's why we lie to kids about Santa Claus...and the Easter bunny.

There's a time and a place for adult honesty...and childhood isn't it.


Have a nice week...

Gus

Certified breast self-exam subcontractor.

On 24 Nov 2003 20:00:21 -0800, shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny)
wrote:
I think it all came about not because he was questioning them, butbecause of his ill-timed phone call. Now that I think of it, itmust've sounded strange to him.Neither one of us makes a habit of drilling the kids about details ofthe others' life. But irregardless,

Just for the record...there is no such word as 'irregardless'.

I get the impression that your ex is a very good parent. I think its
honorable that he would bring up a possible problem to you...even
though he probably knew that it might rub you the wrong way.

Don't try to criticize his lifestyle...past or present. The problem
is in your household...and with your daughter. Try to help her solve
her problem.


Have a nice week...

Gus

Certified breast self-exam subcontractor.

On 25 Nov 2003 12:27:12 -0800, shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny)
wrote:
Coorslte <ringram@flash.net> wrote in message news:<_ewwb.48$2t.14@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com>... It says not only do I love this person and want to show it, I also like them....Frenching says I lust after this person.Uh... what's wrong with lusting after the person you love?JEN

In private? Nothing.


Have a nice week...

Gus

Certified breast self-exam subcontractor.

On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 22:53:30 GMT, Ellie <ellie_first@hotmail.com>
wrote:
shinypenny wrote: I'll tell her that there's a big difference between a 38-year-old woman who pays her own mortgage and a 16 year old who still lives at home with her mother. When she's responsible enough to pay her own mortgage and live on her own, she can do what she wants to do and I will respect that she's demonstrated that she's mature enough to make her own decisions for her life.Jen, what's your goal here? Are you attempting to show your children that you are a responsible adult and assuch have a right to do as you please? If that's the case, then you should do as you please without anyconcern. And if a scenario comes up that your daughter challenges you on something that she wants to do, youcan exert your authority as you said above. She may or may not give you a hard time, but that can happen nomatter what you do (on not do).I assumed that your goal is to do what is *right* for your children. In that case, it's irrelevant whetheryou have a right to do what you want, IF it affects your children negatively. Only you can decide how yourchildren truly feel about the forms of *affection* you want to show in front of them. But if you sincerelywanted to make them feel comfortable and secure, as well as developing a healthy value system, it's importantthat you try to tune into them, understand their feelings, and adjust your behavior to create the bestenvironment for them. None of us know the dynamics in your house, or how your children feel about this. But Ithink that your focus should be on what is right for *them* and not what is your right to do.

Very well said, Ellie.

And I'd like to know the 'big' difference Jen speaks of between the 38
year old and the 16 year old...especially in the eyes of the 16 year
old! lol


Have a nice week...

Gus

Certified breast self-exam subcontractor.

in article nm08svo01aooetnvo3rqc3nobk3h97mpt5@4ax.com, Gus at
gusaufdenkinder@hotmail.com wrote on 11/25/03 6:37 PM:
On 24 Nov 2003 20:00:21 -0800, shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) wrote: I think it all came about not because he was questioning them, but because of his ill-timed phone call. Now that I think of it, it must've sounded strange to him. Neither one of us makes a habit of drilling the kids about details of the others' life. But irregardless, Just for the record...there is no such word as 'irregardless'.

Of course there is. It just ain't for formal writing - the word has been in
usage in speech for 70 years. It's got dictionary entries, even if only to
say that it was originally a mistake.

Yeah, I looked it up.


M.

In article <slrnbs7p7a.2lt.tony@home.cigardiary.com>, Tony Miller
<tony@cigardiary.com> wrote:
Go for it, Ted. Your left hand doesn't care that "she" is simply an object. :)

That 747 must really be flying high...

Ted

"JWB" <jwbSPAMBEGONE3333@excite.com> wrote in message
news:cwNwb.151112$Gq.19112840@twister.nyc.rr.com.. . "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:o1Nwb.3804$ML.3377@nwrdny02.gnilink.net... Maybe I am difficult because I'm not very intellegent. I thought that
what I said was clear. What is it exactly that you are looking for?

the thread was about french (tongue) kissing in front of your kids. That's it. You completely sidestepped it.

I did say that I kissed my wife passionately on several occassions in front
of my children (at various ages) and many other people as well. I even
offered
to post a picture of it. I think that qualifies as a yes, don't you.
*Projecting* - Putting yourself into the circumstances that you are questioning. Specifically, do you put your tongue down your wife's throat or does she put her
tongue down yours.

what does that have to do with anything that we are talking about? If you must know, though, it's probably 60-40, me.

Obviously it points out that there are always two people involved in any
sort of kiss.
Apparently she dosen't like it as much as you do.
Why do you get to say what we are talking about?
And what does your *are you stoned* comment have to do with anything?
Isn't that *off topic*?
No, I am not stoned. Last night I was a bit tipsy from Ouzo (which I'm
not used to) when I posted. Here, it is the middle of the day and it's not appropriate to be stoned. That could change by tonight although I will have to wait until after my workout at the gym. In the privacy of my home, alone with my wife, it might turn out to be appropriate for the moment. I notice that I asked several questions of you which you also artfully sidestepped or ignored. Like what? I admit I do ignore things that I feel steer the conversation away from the topic.

Like read the thread.
I love you anyway. The answers don't really matter now do they, we are just having a conversation (intellegent or otherwise). You love me? Why? I mean, I like you and all, Urf, but I'm not so sure "love" enters into it. Or do you love all people?

I love you in the same way I love a good laugh. I like what you say here and
most
often agree with what you say. I think you are a fine person based on what
you
say but I will not under any circumstances *french kiss* you! JWB (doesn't love all people... doesn't even like most people..)

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:Xy2xb.6528$nM6.3875@nwrdny01.gnilink.net... "JWB" <jwbSPAMBEGONE3333@excite.com> wrote in message news:cwNwb.151112$Gq.19112840@twister.nyc.rr.com.. . "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:o1Nwb.3804$ML.3377@nwrdny02.gnilink.net... Maybe I am difficult because I'm not very intellegent. I thought that what I said was clear. What is it exactly that you are looking for? the thread was about french (tongue) kissing in front of your kids.
That's it. You completely sidestepped it. I did say that I kissed my wife passionately on several occassions in
front of my children (at various ages) and many other people as well. I even offered to post a picture of it. I think that qualifies as a yes, don't you.


well, the reason that I say you didn't answer it is the OP does this every
day when hubby comes home. You made it seem like that was all ok, when in
reality, you chose your spots rather sparingly.

Listen, I agree that there may be a time when you (I, whoever) plant a nice
wet, sloppy kiss on your wife in front of people, but as an everyday
practice in front of your kids? I think that's a bit much. But your post
about passion and the like made it seem like you were condoning the everyday
practice.

Where do you come in on the OP's issue, as she gave it.

*Projecting* - Putting yourself into the circumstances that you are questioning. Specifically, do you put your tongue down your wife's throat or does she put her tongue down yours. what does that have to do with anything that we are talking about? If
you must know, though, it's probably 60-40, me. Obviously it points out that there are always two people involved in any sort of kiss. Apparently she dosen't like it as much as you do.


Not really. It's just I'm usully the aggressor.

Why do you get to say what we are talking about? And what does your *are you stoned* comment have to do with anything? Isn't that *off topic*?


Well, you do tend to ramble obout "big" concepts.

No, I am not stoned. Last night I was a bit tipsy from Ouzo (which I'm not used to) when I posted. Here, it is the middle of the day and it's not appropriate to be
stoned. That could change by tonight although I will have to wait until after my workout at the gym. In the privacy of my home, alone with my wife, it might turn out to be appropriate for the moment. I notice that I asked several questions of you which you also artfully sidestepped or ignored. Like what? I admit I do ignore things that I feel steer the conversation away from the topic. Like read the thread. I love you anyway. The answers don't really matter now do they, we are just having a conversation (intellegent or otherwise). You love me? Why? I mean, I like you and all, Urf, but I'm not so sure "love" enters into it. Or do you love all people? I love you in the same way I love a good laugh. I like what you say here
and most often agree with what you say. I think you are a fine person based on what you say but I will not under any circumstances *french kiss* you!

I'm glad for that ;)

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 02:01:48 GMT, Michael <erosewater@ziplip.com>
wrote:
in article nm08svo01aooetnvo3rqc3nobk3h97mpt5@4ax.com, Gus atgusaufdenkinder@hotmail.com wrote on 11/25/03 6:37 PM: On 24 Nov 2003 20:00:21 -0800, shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) wrote: I think it all came about not because he was questioning them, but because of his ill-timed phone call. Now that I think of it, it must've sounded strange to him. Neither one of us makes a habit of drilling the kids about details of the others' life. But irregardless, Just for the record...there is no such word as 'irregardless'.Of course there is. It just ain't for formal writing - the word has been inusage in speech for 70 years. It's got dictionary entries, even if only tosay that it was originally a mistake.Yeah, I looked it up.M.

In what comic book? lol


Have a nice week...

Gus

Certified breast self-exam subcontractor.

in article 0qk9svsi57hpok3pon0dmeu6f4ov48ffnl@4ax.com, Gus at
gusaufdenkinder@hotmail.com wrote on 11/26/03 9:22 AM:
On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 02:01:48 GMT, Michael <erosewater@ziplip.com> wrote: in article nm08svo01aooetnvo3rqc3nobk3h97mpt5@4ax.com, Gus at gusaufdenkinder@hotmail.com wrote on 11/25/03 6:37 PM: On 24 Nov 2003 20:00:21 -0800, shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) wrote:> I think it all came about not because he was questioning them, but> because of his ill-timed phone call. Now that I think of it, it> must've sounded strange to him.>> Neither one of us makes a habit of drilling the kids about details of> the others' life. But irregardless, Just for the record...there is no such word as 'irregardless'. Of course there is. It just ain't for formal writing - the word has been in usage in speech for 70 years. It's got dictionary entries, even if only to say that it was originally a mistake. Yeah, I looked it up. M. In what comic book? lol Have a nice week... Gus Certified breast self-exam subcontractor.


In several dictionaries, Gus. According to some of them, it's a mistaken
combination of "irrespective" and "regardless" that has come into casual
usage. Usenet would probably qualify as a casual usage, don't you think?

M.

urf <urf@nospam.com> wrote:
I did say that I kissed my wife passionately on several occassions in front of my children (at various ages) and many other people as well. I even offered to post a picture of it. I think that qualifies as a yes, don't you.

I feel fairly certain that my children have seen us French kissing a few
times. Not long probing kisses, but not pecks either. I mean they walk
into rooms where we are, for one thing. Yeah, they kind go "eew" when
they see us being lovey-dovey, but they are also relieved, because a lot
of their friends' parents are getting divorced, and they don't want us
to.

"Emma Anne" <mbjq@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1g510bo.aikdx51lf1jtlN%mbjq@earthlink.net... urf <urf@nospam.com> wrote: I did say that I kissed my wife passionately on several occassions in
front of my children (at various ages) and many other people as well. I even offered to post a picture of it. I think that qualifies as a yes, don't you. I feel fairly certain that my children have seen us French kissing a few times. Not long probing kisses, but not pecks either. I mean they walk into rooms where we are, for one thing. Yeah, they kind go "eew" when they see us being lovey-dovey, but they are also relieved, because a lot of their friends' parents are getting divorced, and they don't want us to.

We parents teach by example. I would prefer that they see us
act lovingly toward each other as opposed hitting each other
or acting with hatred toward each other.

It seems that is just common sense.

In that sense you are a good teacher.

"WhansaMi" <whansami@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031126140216.28353.00001077@mb-m11.aol.com... > I did say that I kissed my wife passionately on several occassions infront > of my children (at various ages) and many other people as well. I
even > offered > to post a picture of it. I think that qualifies as a yes, don't you. I feel fairly certain that my children have seen us French kissing a
few times. Not long probing kisses, but not pecks either. I mean they
walk into rooms where we are, for one thing. Yeah, they kind go "eew" when they see us being lovey-dovey, but they are also relieved, because a
lot of their friends' parents are getting divorced, and they don't want us to.We parents teach by example. I would prefer that they see usact lovingly toward each other as opposed hitting each otheror acting with hatred toward each other. But, that is a strawman argument. It needn't be either/or.

I agree with you - it seems many miss the point, and equate this to "we're
only being affectionate, and I want my kids to see that instead of the
alternative". So, by that logic, screwing on the couch in front of the kids
can be defended by the same argument.

The OP stated that they french kiss, not super deep face sucking, but with
some definite tongue-play, prettymuch everyday as a "hello-goodbye" kiss, in
front of the kids. Not in a "they caught us", or "on occasion" (like Urf and
Emma Ann state). This is common practice in Jen's home, and she asked us
what we thought.

"Gus <gusaufdenkinder@hotmail.com>" wrote: Children should not hafta bear the burden of ADULT honesty. That's why we lie to kids about Santa Claus...and the Easter bunny.

Whaddya mean "we", paleface?

My kids know what there is to be known about Nicholas of Myra%, and it
doesn't seem to reduce their overall enjoyment of Christmas at all.
(Well, my four-year-old dances pretty much everywhere she goes, and
seems to be essentially in a state of perpetual bliss, so that's a
special case.)
--
% <http://elvis.rowan.edu/~kilroy/JEK/query.cgi?12,6>


We tell the kids the truth as best we know, within limits of propriety
and what they can understand. Why would anyone ever do anything else?


Darren Provine ! kilroy@elvis.rowan.edu ! http://www.rowan.edu/~kilroy
"Character builds slowly, but it can be torn down again with incredible
swiftness." -- Faith Baldwin

Ellie <ellie_first@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3FC3DE80.9E83AB02@hotmail.com>...
I assumed that your goal is to do what is *right* for your children. In that case, it's irrelevant whether you have a right to do what you want, IF it affects your children negatively.

Agreed. What I'm struggling with is the question: Which is more
dangerous, my daughter seeing me french-kiss my boyfriend (which may
be silly or tacky or crass), or her father's reaction needlessly
creating shame.

jen

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:pcr7zv2ahx.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu... Am I the only one who feels like this is a tempest in a teapot? Jen used the phrase "french kissing" but then when she expanded on this, it turns out that it was a peck, followed by an exaggerated dip and kiss which was a joke aimed at the daughter who was wincing at the peck. No? Did I misunderstand? [Or as Sheila might aver, am I paying too much attention to what Jen actually _said_ as opposed to what she might _mean_?]

well, that was the instance that led to the comment from the daughter. But,
here's more of what she said in another post:

**
Yes, that's what I'm talking about! A vertical, completely clothed
10-20 second smooch hello at the end of the day, involving a bit of
tongue -- but not duelling and exploratory!
**

That's probably why her daughter said "oh, they're tongue kissing again" to
the exxagerated dip.

Bottom line - daughter prettymuch sees mom tongue kissing husband hello
everyday. I see that as excessive. I'd see it as excessive if it was
sister-in-law who saw it everyday (in other words, it matters little that
it's the kid seeing it to me - I find tongue kissing in public
inappropriate, and something I don't want to watch... now, if at a wedding
like Urf's example, well, there are always exceptions, but as a rule, I
really don't want to see it unless I'm watching two lesbians go at it in a
porn film - bring it on, then ;)

JWB

"JWB" <jwbSPAMBEGONE3333@excite.com> wrote in message news:<TU6xb.140571$ri.19750080@twister.nyc.rr.com>... "WhansaMi" <whansami@aol.com> wrote in message news:20031126140216.28353.00001077@mb-m11.aol.com...> > I did say that I kissed my wife passionately on several occassions in front> > of my children (at various ages) and many other people as well. I even> > offered> > to post a picture of it. I think that qualifies as a yes, don't you.>> I feel fairly certain that my children have seen us French kissing a few> times. Not long probing kisses, but not pecks either. I mean they walk> into rooms where we are, for one thing. Yeah, they kind go "eew" when> they see us being lovey-dovey, but they are also relieved, because a lot> of their friends' parents are getting divorced, and they don't want us> to.We parents teach by example. I would prefer that they see usact lovingly toward each other as opposed hitting each otheror acting with hatred toward each other. But, that is a strawman argument. It needn't be either/or. I agree with you - it seems many miss the point, and equate this to "we're only being affectionate, and I want my kids to see that instead of the alternative". So, by that logic, screwing on the couch in front of the kids can be defended by the same argument. The OP stated that they french kiss, not super deep face sucking, but with some definite tongue-play, prettymuch everyday as a "hello-goodbye" kiss, in front of the kids. Not in a "they caught us", or "on occasion" (like Urf and Emma Ann state). This is common practice in Jen's home, and she asked us what we thought.

It is common, but that doesn't mean the kids are always right there
watching us. Most of the time, they are in the other room or their
backs are turned and they don't even notice. They may hear us kissing
hello, but they don't necessarily have a full view of what we're
doing.

jen

There is a difference between "parents" and "mother & fiance". These
are definitely not the same. Your kids would feel less unconfortable
if they were watching their mother & father frenching as opposed to
watching their mother & fiance. Watching mother & father is yucky but
reassuring. Watching mother & fiance is difficult.

You want to teach loving behaviour. So far they have learned the
lessons of conflict unresolved, divorce, more conflict, and now they
are learning about new love, while it creates discomfort in your ex &
the kids.

You oversimplify.

If you want your children to learn about love, teach them by example
how to maintain a good relationship without conflict. Learn to treat
your ex with consideration & respect (even if he happens to be an
asshole). Avoid doing or saying things to aggravate the people in your
life that you will need to have an ongoing relationship with for years
to come. Don't look for a quote from a religious tract to justify
aggravating your ex. Even if you find one, he will find a way to
disagree. He sounds like he's more uptight than you, but he doesn't
sound evil. He is concerned about his kids.

A good friend of mine had her ex & her live in boyfriend both attend
her daughter's wedding, and they were pleasant to each other, both
helping at the bar, etc. That is what you want, a friendly rapport
between the 4 adults who wll be your kids new parent couples.

We parents teach by example. I would prefer that they see us act lovingly toward each other as opposed hitting each other or acting with hatred toward each other.

"DrLith" <drlith@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<bq10sv$gm2$7@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com>... "shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:c8cb5319.0311241126.3c6cafb@posting.google.co m... My ex is ragging on me (again) about french-kissing my fiance in front of our two daughters, ages 9 and 11. He claims the 11 year old is complaining to him that it makes her embarrassed. I suspect he's the one with the problem here, and if she is embarrassed, well, most preteens are embarrassed by their parents in some way or another. When your daughters are, let's say, 19 and 21--do you think you'd be uncomfortably if they french kissed in front of you? (Not each other, silly goose! Some other object of affectin, natch.) Would you french kiss in front of your own mom?

The type of kissing we do, yes, I've done it front of my own mom! She
didn't bat an eye! And she's fairly conservative.

jen

Emma Anne wrote:
I feel fairly certain that my children have seen us French kissing a few times. Not long probing kisses, but not pecks either. I mean they walk into rooms where we are, for one thing. Yeah, they kind go "eew" when they see us being lovey-dovey, but they are also relieved, because a lot of their friends' parents are getting divorced, and they don't want us to.

This reminds me of a time when my son was about 8 or so, and the parents of one
of his close friends got divorced. We were all shocked, because no one would've
thought that they had problems. My son was devastated. He kept questioning us and
wanted reassurance that we won't divorce. One day we were all sitting at the
dinner table and he brought it up again, saying "how do I KNOW you won't get
divorced". We told him that we won't divorce because we love each other very
much. He said, in a frustrated tone of voice, "but Mike's parents loved each
other more than you two". We realized that he was so confused because that couple
had tried very hard to pretend they were happy by being overly affectionate with
each other in public.

alli_anor@yahoo.com (Alli) wrote in message news:<39645f9a.0311261517.2c042cbc@posting.google.com>... There is a difference between "parents" and "mother & fiance". These are definitely not the same. Your kids would feel less unconfortable if they were watching their mother & father frenching as opposed to watching their mother & fiance. Watching mother & father is yucky but reassuring. Watching mother & fiance is difficult. You want to teach loving behaviour. So far they have learned the lessons of conflict unresolved, divorce, more conflict, and now they are learning about new love, while it creates discomfort in your ex & the kids.

I think you have a really good message here. You don't know me, so I
feel I need to explain that my ex and I normally have a pretty civil
relationship and go extra lengths to do what is right for our
children, including sharing custody 50-50. Yes, we had a lot of
conflict in the beginning (divorced 5 years ago - I instigated the
divorce - he didn't want it), but resolved most of it a few years ago,
around the time he met his second wife. I had not met my fiance at
that point (I was dating when the kids weren't around, but I guess I
was waiting until he forgave me or something... I dunno.....).

It was my ex who finally encouraged me to move on with my life. He has
been supportive of my new relationship from the beginning.

You oversimplify. If you want your children to learn about love, teach them by example how to maintain a good relationship without conflict.

That's why I came here and posted for advice; I avoid conflict unless
absolutely necessary. He hit a raw nerve with me the other day (too
reminiscent of the troubles we had in our relationship), and before
responding to him, I came here. I still haven't responded to him (am
waiting for a chance to talk with my daughter first).
Learn to treat your ex with consideration & respect (even if he happens to be an asshole).


I have learned! Trust me. Sometimes it's not easy. :-0


Avoid doing or saying things to aggravate the people in your life that you will need to have an ongoing relationship with for years to come.

Agreed. But I also find myself rolling my eyes and wishing *he'd*
learn not to say things that he knows will only aggravate me! I
confess I often feel that I am the one who bends over backwards to
maintain our civil relationship. It was like that in our marriage,
throughout our divorce, and even now. I feel like I compromise much
more than he does. Sometimes I get tired of compromising. But as
someone else said (JWB?), perhaps this isn't the battle I should pick!
Don't look for a quote from a religious tract to justify aggravating your ex. Even if you find one, he will find a way to disagree. He sounds like he's more uptight than you, but he doesn't sound evil. He is concerned about his kids.

I agree with you on that. He's not evil. He really is concerned about
the kids, he's just...... more uptight. I feel we often get forced
into playing opposite roles: I'm the lenient one, he's the strict one.
I think it'd be a lot healthier if we could both be more balanced. But
because we are so different, I feel sometimes I *have* to be more
lenient, just to offset how strict he is! And I'm sure he probably
feels he needs to be extra strict to offset how lenient I am.........
and so we never get out of this stupid circle!!! ARGH!!!
A good friend of mine had her ex & her live in boyfriend both attend her daughter's wedding, and they were pleasant to each other, both helping at the bar, etc. That is what you want, a friendly rapport between the 4 adults who wll be your kids new parent couples.

Yep, we routinely attend all sorts of occassions such as first
communion, school plays, parent/teacher conferences, etc, with fiance
and second wife in tow. We're all used to this by now and we all
manage to have a friendly rapport.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

jen

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0311262006.1a0547fb@posting.google.c om... "JWB" <jwbSPAMBEGONE3333@excite.com> wrote in message
news:<poaxb.140580$ri.19786071@twister.nyc.rr.com>... Question - if I were casually watching (not that I would ;), would I be
able to tell the little tongue slip took place? If no, then yea, there's nothing wrong with what you are doing. If yes,
I'd reconsider in front of others. IMHO. JWB I suppose it depends on where you were standing at the time. Usually my fiance comes in the kitchen while I am cooking dinner. The kids are either at the table doing homework, in another room practicing their instruments, or in the next room watching a bit of t.v. if they're done with their other obligations. I guess I just don't think about it all that much; perhaps I should. I don't know.


well, I would think about it a bit, if I were you. Listen, if you're pretty
sure nobody is probably going to come in, yea, why not sneak a little
tongue? But I, as an adult, don't really like seeing other people french.
Most people I assume wouldn't.

On the one hand, I'm in agreement with Urf on this, and I think he's written very eloquently on the subject. I do hope that when I am his age, my marriage is just as passionate and so are my children's marriages!!


well, one thing Urf was pretty clear on was that this (Frenching in public)
was done *on occasion*. He seemingly picked his spots. Which I agree may
crop up. But he hasn't said if it was common, everyday practice in front of
people (or within possible eyeshot). Somehow, I doubt he was frenching
Estelle on a regular basis in front of his sons.

On the other hand, I do suddenly find myself with an 11 year old who's seemingly transformed overnight into a complete stranger! I am still learning the "new rules" and kinda fumbling around here.


Something I want to bring up - imagine how you'd feel 20 years from now if
your daughter said "you know, your frenching in front of us when I was a kid
really bothered me, but I never really said anything". This is a distinct
possibility. My aunt is finding out now from my cousins some things she did
after the divorce that really bothered them, but they never said a word.
She's pretty upset by this realization, and I don't wish that on anyone.

I don't mean stop being affectionate, mind you. I think showing affection in
front of the kids is wonderful. But I do think you are risking an awful lot
by that little tongue slip that is sometimes seen - I just don't see *any*
upside to frenching over a simple kiss when the kids are around, but I do
see a potential downside.

I doubt very highly she'd ever say in 20 years "you know, you and 'x' really
should have frenched in front of us instead of just plain old kissing"

I'm not sure I would take her word on anything she says about it now - of
*course* she's now likely to say it doesn't bother her if asked. That may or
may not be true.

But we do have one shred of evidence - she certainly noticed (and not just
the exaggerated dip). That should speak volumes.

Have a nice Thanksgiving, Jen.

JWB

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0311261127.31542532@posting.google.c om... Ellie <ellie_first@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<3FC3DE80.9E83AB02@hotmail.com>... I assumed that your goal is to do what is *right* for your children. In
that case, it's irrelevant whether you have a right to do what you want, IF it affects your children
negatively. Agreed. What I'm struggling with is the question: Which is more dangerous, my daughter seeing me french-kiss my boyfriend (which may be silly or tacky or crass), or her father's reaction needlessly creating shame.

Well, that's a silly question to be asking yourself. The question you should
be asking is: "which can I control?"

"JWB" <jwbSPAMBEGONE3333@excite.com> wrote in message
news:bp7xb.286128$pT1.185296@twister.nyc.rr.com... "Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:pcr7zv2ahx.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu...

Bottom line - daughter prettymuch sees mom tongue kissing husband hello everyday. I see that as excessive. I'd see it as excessive if it was sister-in-law who saw it everyday (in other words, it matters little that it's the kid seeing it to me - I find tongue kissing in public inappropriate, and something I don't want to watch... now, if at a wedding like Urf's example, well, there are always exceptions, but as a rule, I


really don't want to see it unless I'm watching two lesbians go at it in a porn film - bring it on, then ;) JWB

It's about what is in it for you? :)

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 21:16:26 GMT, whisper babbled on about Re: Affection in front of the
Children proclaiming:

-}I agree with the other posters.. French kissing is beyond "showing
-}affection" and I as an adult do not care to see some one French kissing

It wasn't until after I got my wedding pictures scanned and enlarged was it clear that I
was sticking my tongue in my wife's mouth in one of the pictures.

The problem with affection in front of our three-year old is that she wants a piece of the
action. And -- she sometimes wants to try to imitate the way we kiss each other.

shinypenny wrote:
My ex is ragging on me (again) about french-kissing my fiance in front of our two daughters, ages 9 and 11. He claims the 11 year old is complaining to him that it makes her embarrassed. I suspect he's the one with the problem here, and if she is embarrassed, well, most preteens are embarrassed by their parents in some way or another.

I see why he's your ex... He's clueless.. Ask him if his parents
ever did anything that embarrassed him? I agree with you she's
being a kid...
I don't see any harm in having my kids see an example of two loving, affectionate adults in their lives. I do wonder if my daughter is confused because she sees a contrast between her two homes - we're openly affectionate and (if my ex hasn't changed since we were married) he and his wife probably aren't so demonstrative.

Ahhh the guy was a jerk... Looking for advice here, in particular, if anyone has any links I can point to that have an expert saying that the kids won't be harmed by seeing such displays of affection. My ex will believe it if I show him something written by an authority figure. Ideal would be some sort of christian/catholic literature!

Do you think that if the Pope walked in and called your ex a
stupid *** your husband would repent & be a better man?
Of course, if anyone wants to take my ex's side in this and explain why he might have a point, I'll try to keep an open mind. I was more sensitive to his concerns before we got engaged, but sheesh! we're engaged now! I am getting the impression this would bother him even if we were married!! UGH!


This guy's a jerk... Tell your daughter it is normal for two
people to openly show their love for each other. Tell her to ask
her friends if their Mom's & dads hug, kiss & stuff in front of
them.

Hell in two years she will be frenching her Boyfriends.. I bet
the ex will have a breakdown when she tells him she has a boyfriend.

Ike