I know this is the "marriage" newsgroup and all. Hey, if there were
ever a more bitter and angry group of people worse then those found
here, it would be them who dwell on all.support.divorce so I don't
even bother going there. =) Really, I posed some questions there once
and nearly got my head handed to me. I know there must be some
divorcees on here and what I'm asking is this. So many people on this
group seem to try to steer you away from divorce and I suppose that is
justifiable. But for those of you who have gone the route of the big
"D" word, were there any regrets? I look at it like this. I work in
a place where people threaten to leave all the time. They complain
and complain and most of them never go. But those that do, and
resurface later, well, not one has ever regretted leaving. Any
thoughts?

--Brian

Brian <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> writes:
I know this is the "marriage" newsgroup and all. Hey, if there were ever a more bitter and angry group of people worse then those found here, it would be them who dwell on all.support.divorce so I don't even bother going there. =) Really, I posed some questions there once and nearly got my head handed to me. I know there must be some divorcees on here and what I'm asking is this. So many people on this group seem to try to steer you away from divorce and I suppose that is justifiable. But for those of you who have gone the route of the big "D" word, were there any regrets? I look at it like this. I work in a place where people threaten to leave all the time. They complain and complain and most of them never go. But those that do, and resurface later, well, not one has ever regretted leaving. Any thoughts?

I've not divorced, but I've noticed that a rather high percentage of
the sensible regulars here have been divorced. JWB, jen (shinypenny),
Emma Anne and Sheila come to mind right off.

I think part of the tendency to steer people away from divorce comes
from the presumption that someone here is here to try to keep their
marriage working or make it work better. (Though there are obviously
some who find the company so good here that they can't leave.)

And also that getting divorced won't actually make you a happier
person unless you can figure out what you did to get yourself into
that situation in the first place, and how you are going to avoid
doing the same thing in the future!

Doug Anderson wrote: Brian <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> writes: I know this is the "marriage" newsgroup and all. Hey, if there were ever a more bitter and angry group of people worse then those found here, it would be them who dwell on all.support.divorce so I don't even bother going there. =) Really, I posed some questions there once and nearly got my head handed to me. I know there must be some divorcees on here and what I'm asking is this. So many people on this group seem to try to steer you away from divorce and I suppose that is justifiable. But for those of you who have gone the route of the big "D" word, were there any regrets? I look at it like this. I work in a place where people threaten to leave all the time. They complain and complain and most of them never go. But those that do, and resurface later, well, not one has ever regretted leaving. Any thoughts? I've not divorced, but I've noticed that a rather high percentage of the sensible regulars here have been divorced. JWB, jen (shinypenny), Emma Anne and Sheila come to mind right off.

I don't think any of the above people had a family consisting of several
children and a baby, though, did they? So - what about the kids, who would
be effectively abandoned?

"Bill in Co." <ornery@earthlink.net> writes:
Doug Anderson wrote: Brian <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> writes: I know this is the "marriage" newsgroup and all. Hey, if there were ever a more bitter and angry group of people worse then those found here, it would be them who dwell on all.support.divorce so I don't even bother going there. =) Really, I posed some questions there once and nearly got my head handed to me. I know there must be some divorcees on here and what I'm asking is this. So many people on this group seem to try to steer you away from divorce and I suppose that is justifiable. But for those of you who have gone the route of the big "D" word, were there any regrets? I look at it like this. I work in a place where people threaten to leave all the time. They complain and complain and most of them never go. But those that do, and resurface later, well, not one has ever regretted leaving. Any thoughts? I've not divorced, but I've noticed that a rather high percentage of the sensible regulars here have been divorced. JWB, jen (shinypenny), Emma Anne and Sheila come to mind right off. I don't think any of the above people had a family consisting of several children and a baby, though, did they? So - what about the kids, who would be effectively abandoned?

You know what Bill:

a) Brian doesn't have "several children and a baby." (He has _a_
child and a baby.)

b) Sheila got divorced with two young children. I don't know about
jen and E.A.

c) Stick your snotty attitude about Brian where it belongs, and stop
blaming him for the fact that your marriage is over.

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 01:55:46 GMT, Brian <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com>
wrote:
But for those of you who have gone the route of the big"D" word, were there any regrets?

Sure, like why I didn't do it sooner. But in all seriousness, it was
still a pretty traumatic event. Not so much the divorce itself, but
the year in separation leading up to final event (denial, blame,
guilt, etc).

And it's not all roses and sunshine after the fact. Eight years
later, I'm still pretty much jaded towards marriage. Luckily I've
found a guy who understands that there is more to being committed than
a piece of paper.

But it's part of my past, and part of what makes me who I am today.
So no regrets.

Tara

"Brian" <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:08jlrvg0qrrogdfu2sd04gfq6la8se1el3@4ax.com... I know this is the "marriage" newsgroup and all. Hey, if there were ever a more bitter and angry group of people worse then those found here, it would be them who dwell on all.support.divorce so I don't even bother going there. =) Really, I posed some questions there once and nearly got my head handed to me. I know there must be some divorcees on here and what I'm asking is this. So many people on this group seem to try to steer you away from divorce and I suppose that is justifiable. But for those of you who have gone the route of the big "D" word, were there any regrets? I look at it like this. I work in a place where people threaten to leave all the time. They complain and complain and most of them never go. But those that do, and resurface later, well, not one has ever regretted leaving. Any thoughts?

Brian,

I was very much like you, minus the children (she had a child - not the same
thing). Divorce was a great thing for me (and for her). I got my life back,
and was ready to date the next day :)

However, with your kids, it's bound to be a FAR different experience. I
walked away, and saw my ex exactly one time since I left the apartment. I
have no weekly payments. My wife doesn't have to deal with my ex in our
lives. I don't have to support two households.

Plus, I don't have any kids to miss.

Can you be happier with all of the above than you are right now?

Brian <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> wrote:
I know this is the "marriage" newsgroup and all. Hey, if there wereever a more bitter and angry group of people worse then those foundhere, it would be them who dwell on all.support.divorce so I don'teven bother going there. =) Really, I posed some questions there onceand nearly got my head handed to me. I know there must be somedivorcees on here and what I'm asking is this. So many people on thisgroup seem to try to steer you away from divorce and I suppose that isjustifiable. But for those of you who have gone the route of the big"D" word, were there any regrets? I look at it like this. I work ina place where people threaten to leave all the time. They complainand complain and most of them never go. But those that do, andresurface later, well, not one has ever regretted leaving. Anythoughts?

I'm extremely happy that my wife divorced her first husband.

Im very happy I divorced my first husband. My child (aged 2 at the time) is
now 16, and extremely well adjusted. I remarried and had 2 more children and
my husband has 2 children from his first marriage too. It hasn't been a bed
of roses but its all been extremely worth it.

Amy

Doug Anderson wrote: "Bill in Co." <ornery@earthlink.net> writes: Doug Anderson wrote: Brian <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> writes:> I know this is the "marriage" newsgroup and all. Hey, if there were> ever a more bitter and angry group of people worse then those found> here, it would be them who dwell on all.support.divorce so I don't> even bother going there. =) Really, I posed some questions there once> and nearly got my head handed to me. I know there must be some> divorcees on here and what I'm asking is this. So many people on this> group seem to try to steer you away from divorce and I suppose that is> justifiable. But for those of you who have gone the route of the big> "D" word, were there any regrets? I look at it like this. I work in> a place where people threaten to leave all the time. They complain> and complain and most of them never go. But those that do, and> resurface later, well, not one has ever regretted leaving. Any> thoughts? I've not divorced, but I've noticed that a rather high percentage of the sensible regulars here have been divorced. JWB, jen (shinypenny), Emma Anne and Sheila come to mind right off. I don't think any of the above people had a family consisting of several children and a baby, though, did they? So - what about the kids, who would be effectively abandoned? You know what Bill: a) Brian doesn't have "several children and a baby." (He has _a_ child and a baby.)

Oh gee, I guess that justifies it, then. We're "only" talking about a child
and a baby. I'm sorry I missed that, and I stand corrected.
b) Sheila got divorced with two young children. I don't know about jen and E.A. c) Stick your snotty attitude about Brian where it belongs, and stop blaming him for the fact that your marriage is over.

I'm not. And I don't see how your projection enters into this, either.

"Bill in Co." <ornery@earthlink.net> writes:
I'm not. And I don't see how your projection enters into this, either.

Ah. We learned a new word today. You might try to find out what it means.

Doug Anderson wrote: "Bill in Co." <ornery@earthlink.net> writes: I'm not. And I don't see how your projection enters into this, either. Ah. We learned a new word today. You might try to find out what it means.

I'm not projecting here, Doug. YOU were the one that said it, and Ellie just
picked up on it - and it seemed perfectly logical, based on what she said about
what you had said.

"Bill in Co." <ornery@earthlink.net> writes:
Doug Anderson wrote: "Bill in Co." <ornery@earthlink.net> writes: I'm not. And I don't see how your projection enters into this, either. Ah. We learned a new word today. You might try to find out what it means. I'm not projecting here, Doug. YOU were the one that said it, and Ellie just picked up on it - and it seemed perfectly logical, based on what she said about what you had said.

You're in the wrong thread.

If you were in the correct thread, find "it" and where I said "it."
Oh, I forgot. You don't "do" google.

"Brian" <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:08jlrvg0qrrogdfu2sd04gfq6la8se1el3@4ax.com... I know this is the "marriage" newsgroup and all. Hey, if there were ever a more bitter and angry group of people worse then those found here, it would be them who dwell on all.support.divorce so I don't even bother going there. =) Really, I posed some questions there once and nearly got my head handed to me. I know there must be some divorcees on here and what I'm asking is this. So many people on this group seem to try to steer you away from divorce and I suppose that is justifiable. But for those of you who have gone the route of the big "D" word, were there any regrets? I look at it like this. I work in a place where people threaten to leave all the time. They complain and complain and most of them never go. But those that do, and resurface later, well, not one has ever regretted leaving. Any thoughts? --Brian

Having been divorced twice I can say that neither time was I "happy" about
it, nor did I regret my decision. In both cases we simply came to the
mutual decision that we would both be happier if we went our separate ways.
The way I look at it is that in both cases, the experiences I learned while
married were invaluable to me in my current situation - they prepared me to
be the person and the wife I am today.

No regrets here.

SD

In article <08jlrvg0qrrogdfu2sd04gfq6la8se1el3@4ax.com>, Brian wrote: I know this is the "marriage" newsgroup and all. Hey, if there were ever a more bitter and angry group of people worse then those found here, it would be them who dwell on all.support.divorce so I don't even bother going there. =)

actually, alt.support.divorce is not a bad newsgroup at all.

I started reading it 2 years before I got married and it is definitely
a source of wisdom.
Really, I posed some questions there once and nearly got my head handed to me. I know there must be some divorcees on here and what I'm asking is this. So many people on this group seem to try to steer you away from divorce and I suppose that is justifiable. But for those of you who have gone the route of the big "D" word, were there any regrets? I look at it like this. I work in a place where people threaten to leave all the time. They complain and complain and most of them never go. But those that do, and resurface later, well, not one has ever regretted leaving. Any thoughts?

Sometimes divorce is justifiable, sometimes it is not. The question
is, is it warranted in your situation. When you have 2 kids, their
interests should play a huge role.

i

>> >> I know this is the "marriage" newsgroup and all. Hey, if there were> ever a more bitter and angry group of people worse then those found> here, it would be them who dwell on all.support.divorce so I don't> even bother going there. =) Really, I posed some questions there once> and nearly got my head handed to me. I know there must be some> divorcees on here and what I'm asking is this. So many people on this> group seem to try to steer you away from divorce and I suppose that is> justifiable. But for those of you who have gone the route of the big> "D" word, were there any regrets? I look at it like this. I work in> a place where people threaten to leave all the time. They complain> and complain and most of them never go. But those that do, and> resurface later, well, not one has ever regretted leaving. Any> thoughts? I've not divorced, but I've noticed that a rather high percentage of the sensible regulars here have been divorced. JWB, jen (shinypenny), Emma Anne and Sheila come to mind right off. I don't think any of the above people had a family consisting of several children and a baby, though, did they? So - what about the kids, whowould be effectively abandoned?You know what Bill:a) Brian doesn't have "several children and a baby." (He has _a_ child and a baby.)b) Sheila got divorced with two young children. I don't know about jen and E.A.

Did someone call me? :-)

Brian, I don't have enough time this morning to write everything I'm thinking,
but wanted to at least touch bases here:

I have to look at my divorce from two different perspectives: mine,
personally, and the effect it had on my children. From a totally personal
perspective, my divorce was one of the top ten best things I could do for
myself. Seriously. I've not given all the details of my marriage (and if
you'd like to know more, I'd prefer that you e-mail me, rather than discussing
it on here) but suffice it to say that I might not be alive today if I'd
remained married to my ex. So, yes, from a personal perspective, the divorce
was definitely positive.

OTOH, my kids were school-age when I divorced. That wasn't by accident. I
strongly felt that those first five or six years are very important to their
character and personality development. I felt it was *so* important for them
to have two parents, who were both there, instead of each one trying to deal
with being a single parent (and the concomitant stretching of all resources --
money, time, energy, emotional reserves). I did everything I could to stay
during this very vulnerable time, because, (1) I can tell you as a woman who
stayed at home for the first 6 years, and then went to work, I was a *better*
parent then, than I was as a single parent. I had more patience, I laughed
more, more of my time with my kids was spent in "quality" activities, rather
than "drive here, go there, get this done" stuff. And (2) the kids really,
really benefitted from having both parents readily available to them during
this time.

This doesn't even address the logistical issues of spending so much of the time
going back and forth between houses and of not having *a* space where all of
their stuff is.

More subtly, but probably most importantly, there is the emotional impact of
losing their intact home. A couple of years ago, my son seemed to be brooding
about something. I asked what was going on. He sort of sighed and said, "I
dunno. It's just kind of weird to realize that your parents... well, they
don't really like each other." He's not particularly verbal about his
feelings, but I could tell this really bothered him. My ex and I have worked
through most of our issues, and 95% of the time our interactions are quite
friendly --laughing, and joking around and whatnot. But... I'm sure he wishes
we'd never divorced.

So, as a mother (and to the degree that my own self-concept comes from my
adequacy as a mother....) I have great regrets about getting divorced. I hurt
my kids. I don't feel that I should hide from that. I don't buy that whole
thing that "well, it is better than they see the affectionate, more positive
relationship you have with your DH than the relationship you had with your
ex". No, I don't believe that-- *they* would have been better off if we had
been able to carry on the outwardly cordial relationship that my ex and I had.
They were not privvy to the problems in my marriage; from *their* perspective,
they had a really great home. I failed them.

I've got to go to work.

Sheila

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 01:55:46 GMT, Brian <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> wrote:
I know this is the "marriage" newsgroup and all. Hey, if there wereever a more bitter and angry group of people worse then those foundhere, it would be them who dwell on all.support.divorce so I don'teven bother going there.[...] So many people on thisgroup seem to try to steer you away from divorce and I suppose that isjustifiable. But for those of you who have gone the route of the big"D" word, were there any regrets? [...]

LOL! You almost had your head handed to you here--and it could happen in any
news group. Because this is alt.support.marriage, it's not surprising to find
people trying to help others mend and/or maintain their marriage. It's also a
pretty good place for help in determining the condition of a marriage and
options available.

I certainly don't see the people here as particularly "bitter and angry," but
that is a logical expectation in alt.support.divorce. You should have
anticipated the misplaced aggression. You'll save your self a lot of grief by
learning to consider the source.

As a romantic, as an old-fashioned person, I am never 100.00% happy with any
divorce. I am very happy/relieved to see many of them, but I'd rather see them
have storybook endings.

Michael
A day without recoil is like a day without sunshine!

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 05:24:09 GMT, Bill in Co. <ornery@earthlink.net> wrote: Doug Anderson wrote: "Bill in Co." <ornery@earthlink.net> writes: Doug Anderson wrote:> Brian <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> writes:>>> I know this is the "marriage" newsgroup and all. Hey, if there were>> ever a more bitter and angry group of people worse then those found>> here, it would be them who dwell on all.support.divorce so I don't>> even bother going there. =) Really, I posed some questions there once>> and nearly got my head handed to me. I know there must be some>> divorcees on here and what I'm asking is this. So many people on this>> group seem to try to steer you away from divorce and I suppose that is>> justifiable. But for those of you who have gone the route of the big>> "D" word, were there any regrets? I look at it like this. I work in>> a place where people threaten to leave all the time. They complain>> and complain and most of them never go. But those that do, and>> resurface later, well, not one has ever regretted leaving. Any>> thoughts?>> I've not divorced, but I've noticed that a rather high percentage of> the sensible regulars here have been divorced. JWB, jen (shinypenny),> Emma Anne and Sheila come to mind right off. I don't think any of the above people had a family consisting of several children and a baby, though, did they? So - what about the kids, who would be effectively abandoned? You know what Bill: a) Brian doesn't have "several children and a baby." (He has _a_ child and a baby.) Oh gee, I guess that justifies it, then. We're "only" talking about a child and a baby. I'm sorry I missed that, and I stand corrected. b) Sheila got divorced with two young children. I don't know about jen and E.A. c) Stick your snotty attitude about Brian where it belongs, and stop blaming him for the fact that your marriage is over. I'm not. And I don't see how your projection enters into this, either.

Bill, get some help with your Brian obsession, please.

-Tony

"Brian" <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:08jlrvg0qrrogdfu2sd04gfq6la8se1el3@4ax.com... I know this is the "marriage" newsgroup and all. Hey, if there were ever a more bitter and angry group of people worse then those found here, it would be them who dwell on all.support.divorce so I don't even bother going there. =) Really, I posed some questions there once and nearly got my head handed to me. I know there must be some divorcees on here and what I'm asking is this. So many people on this group seem to try to steer you away from divorce and I suppose that is justifiable. But for those of you who have gone the route of the big "D" word, were there any regrets? I look at it like this. I work in a place where people threaten to leave all the time. They complain and complain and most of them never go. But those that do, and resurface later, well, not one has ever regretted leaving. Any thoughts?

I was happy that I got divorced, but it was a much different situation
that you're in. My husband had become a total beast with no redeeming
qualities and we had no children, no debts, and no shared assets. It was
easy to walk away and never have to see him again. This is not your
situation at all. Once you had children together, you and your wife are
committed to having to often deal with each other, like it or not, for the
next 18 years. You can certainly get away from living under the same
roof, but there are going to be a lot of costs involved and that's much
different than the situation of people leaving a job.

I know you don't like alt.support.divorce, but consider that the people
there were much like you are now before they got their divorces. There's
a reason they are so bitter now. Read what the men go through after a
divorce with small children, how much they miss their kids. You will have
a steep price to pay if you divorce your wife. You've talked about
enjoying the time you spend with your kids. Are you ready to give that
up? You won't be seeing them nearly so often, but you will be giving your
wife most likely at least 1/3 of your income to support your children and
still have to pay for your own new household. You may also end up paying
some additional money to support your wife for some period of time.

What you should really be asking in this group is if there are any here
who came close to divorce, worked things out, and now are extremely
relieved that they are still together. Those that are glad they divorced
are usually coming from situations that were much worse than yours.

In article <bpg3rh$1ma2aa$1@ID-198599.news.uni-berlin.de>, Chrys wrote: I was happy that I got divorced, but it was a much different situation that you're in. My husband had become a total beast with no redeeming qualities and we had no children, no debts, and no shared assets. It was

Scary stuff. What was so bestial about him?

i

Happy about it?.. no Regretful.. hmmm not really.. but there will always be
a part of me that wonders WHY it didn't work..and there will be sad...I had
thought I married my life partner...


Even though I am remarried to a wonderful man.. its different...

Kass



"Brian" <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:08jlrvg0qrrogdfu2sd04gfq6la8se1el3@4ax.com... I know this is the "marriage" newsgroup and all. Hey, if there were ever a more bitter and angry group of people worse then those found here, it would be them who dwell on all.support.divorce so I don't even bother going there. =) Really, I posed some questions there once and nearly got my head handed to me. I know there must be some divorcees on here and what I'm asking is this. So many people on this group seem to try to steer you away from divorce and I suppose that is justifiable. But for those of you who have gone the route of the big "D" word, were there any regrets? I look at it like this. I work in a place where people threaten to leave all the time. They complain and complain and most of them never go. But those that do, and resurface later, well, not one has ever regretted leaving. Any thoughts? --Brian

whansami@aol.com (WhansaMi) wrote in message news:<20031119065946.28548.00000491@mb-m11.aol.com>...>

So, yes, from a personal perspective, the divorce was definitely positive.


Wow, Shiela, you wrote exactly what I was going to say!

OTOH, my kids were school-age when I divorced. That wasn't by accident. I strongly felt that those first five or six years are very important to their character and personality development.

When we divorced, my oldest was going into K, the youngest was in
preschool. I agree with Shiela that the first four-six years are very
important. I feel very strongly that, if at all possible, one parent
should stay home with their child the first four years.

Also bear in mind that experts say it takes a child, no matter what
age, an average of about four years just to process it and adapt.
That's about what I saw with my own kids.

jen

Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<sdAub.242347$Tr4.716911@attbi_s03>...
And also that getting divorced won't actually make you a happier person unless you can figure out what you did to get yourself into that situation in the first place, and how you are going to avoid doing the same thing in the future!

Yep!

The question I asked myself was "if I knew that there was a good
possiblity that I'd never find another significant love relationship,
and spend the rest of my days without one, would I still want to get
divorced?" It's always easy to assume that if you trade in one model,
you can just go out and find a better one eventually.

jen

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 02:20:05 GMT, Doug Anderson
<ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote:
I've not divorced, but I've noticed that a rather high percentage of the sensible regulars here have been divorced. JWB, jen (shinypenny), Emma Anne and Sheila come to mind right off. I don't think any of the above people had a family consisting of several children and a baby, though, did they? So - what about the kids, who would be effectively abandoned?You know what Bill:a) Brian doesn't have "several children and a baby." (He has _a_ child and a baby.)b) Sheila got divorced with two young children. I don't know about jen and E.A.c) Stick your snotty attitude about Brian where it belongs, and stop blaming him for the fact that your marriage is over.

Wow, I finally agree with a Doug anderson post. Amazing.

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 02:15:10 GMT, "Bill in Co." <ornery@earthlink.net>
wrote:
Doug Anderson wrote: Brian <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> writes: I know this is the "marriage" newsgroup and all. Hey, if there were ever a more bitter and angry group of people worse then those found here, it would be them who dwell on all.support.divorce so I don't even bother going there. =) Really, I posed some questions there once and nearly got my head handed to me. I know there must be some divorcees on here and what I'm asking is this. So many people on this group seem to try to steer you away from divorce and I suppose that is justifiable. But for those of you who have gone the route of the big "D" word, were there any regrets? I look at it like this. I work in a place where people threaten to leave all the time. They complain and complain and most of them never go. But those that do, and resurface later, well, not one has ever regretted leaving. Any thoughts? I've not divorced, but I've noticed that a rather high percentage of the sensible regulars here have been divorced. JWB, jen (shinypenny), Emma Anne and Sheila come to mind right off.I don't think any of the above people had a family consisting of severalchildren and a baby, though, did they? So - what about the kids, who wouldbe effectively abandoned?

And what makes you think that kids would be abandoned in a divorce?
That simply makes so sense.

--Brian

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 05:24:09 GMT, "Bill in Co." <ornery@earthlink.net>
wrote:
Doug Anderson wrote: "Bill in Co." <ornery@earthlink.net> writes: Doug Anderson wrote:> Brian <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> writes:>>> I know this is the "marriage" newsgroup and all. Hey, if there were>> ever a more bitter and angry group of people worse then those found>> here, it would be them who dwell on all.support.divorce so I don't>> even bother going there. =) Really, I posed some questions there once>> and nearly got my head handed to me. I know there must be some>> divorcees on here and what I'm asking is this. So many people on this>> group seem to try to steer you away from divorce and I suppose that is>> justifiable. But for those of you who have gone the route of the big>> "D" word, were there any regrets? I look at it like this. I work in>> a place where people threaten to leave all the time. They complain>> and complain and most of them never go. But those that do, and>> resurface later, well, not one has ever regretted leaving. Any>> thoughts?>> I've not divorced, but I've noticed that a rather high percentage of> the sensible regulars here have been divorced. JWB, jen (shinypenny),> Emma Anne and Sheila come to mind right off. I don't think any of the above people had a family consisting of several children and a baby, though, did they? So - what about the kids, who would be effectively abandoned? You know what Bill: a) Brian doesn't have "several children and a baby." (He has _a_ child and a baby.)Oh gee, I guess that justifies it, then. We're "only" talking about a childand a baby. I'm sorry I missed that, and I stand corrected. b) Sheila got divorced with two young children. I don't know about jen and E.A. c) Stick your snotty attitude about Brian where it belongs, and stop blaming him for the fact that your marriage is over.I'm not. And I don't see how your projection enters into this, either.

No, Bill. Doug has a point. I ask a simple question and right away
you throw comments at me about abandoning my children. How the hell
do you know I wouldn't end up with them? I'm here... I've been through
therapy, I've apparently not thrown in the towel so quickly. Do I
sound like the kind of man who would throw some clothes in a bag, walk
out, and never see my kids until their high school graduation? No,
Bill. That's not me. I'm here because I'm trying to do what's best
for my children. If that means staying together because my wife and I
are able to bring them up in a healthy environment, then fine. If we
can't, we need to seek other options. No one is getting abandoned.

--Brian

On 19 Nov 2003 11:59:46 GMT, whansami@aol.com (WhansaMi) wrote:
>> I know this is the "marriage" newsgroup and all. Hey, if there were >> ever a more bitter and angry group of people worse then those found >> here, it would be them who dwell on all.support.divorce so I don't >> even bother going there. =) Really, I posed some questions there once >> and nearly got my head handed to me. I know there must be some >> divorcees on here and what I'm asking is this. So many people on this >> group seem to try to steer you away from divorce and I suppose that is >> justifiable. But for those of you who have gone the route of the big >> "D" word, were there any regrets? I look at it like this. I work in >> a place where people threaten to leave all the time. They complain >> and complain and most of them never go. But those that do, and >> resurface later, well, not one has ever regretted leaving. Any >> thoughts? > > I've not divorced, but I've noticed that a rather high percentage of > the sensible regulars here have been divorced. JWB, jen (shinypenny), > Emma Anne and Sheila come to mind right off. I don't think any of the above people had a family consisting of several children and a baby, though, did they? So - what about the kids, whowould be effectively abandoned?You know what Bill:a) Brian doesn't have "several children and a baby." (He has _a_ child and a baby.)b) Sheila got divorced with two young children. I don't know about jen and E.A.Did someone call me? :-)Brian, I don't have enough time this morning to write everything I'm thinking,but wanted to at least touch bases here:I have to look at my divorce from two different perspectives: mine,personally, and the effect it had on my children. From a totally personalperspective, my divorce was one of the top ten best things I could do formyself. Seriously. I've not given all the details of my marriage (and ifyou'd like to know more, I'd prefer that you e-mail me, rather than discussingit on here) but suffice it to say that I might not be alive today if I'dremained married to my ex. So, yes, from a personal perspective, the divorcewas definitely positive.OTOH, my kids were school-age when I divorced. That wasn't by accident. Istrongly felt that those first five or six years are very important to theircharacter and personality development. I felt it was *so* important for themto have two parents, who were both there, instead of each one trying to dealwith being a single parent (and the concomitant stretching of all resources --money, time, energy, emotional reserves). I did everything I could to stayduring this very vulnerable time, because, (1) I can tell you as a woman whostayed at home for the first 6 years, and then went to work, I was a *better*parent then, than I was as a single parent. I had more patience, I laughedmore, more of my time with my kids was spent in "quality" activities, ratherthan "drive here, go there, get this done" stuff. And (2) the kids really,really benefitted from having both parents readily available to them duringthis time.This doesn't even address the logistical issues of spending so much of the timegoing back and forth between houses and of not having *a* space where all oftheir stuff is.More subtly, but probably most importantly, there is the emotional impact oflosing their intact home. A couple of years ago, my son seemed to be broodingabout something. I asked what was going on. He sort of sighed and said, "Idunno. It's just kind of weird to realize that your parents... well, theydon't really like each other." He's not particularly verbal about hisfeelings, but I could tell this really bothered him. My ex and I have workedthrough most of our issues, and 95% of the time our interactions are quitefriendly --laughing, and joking around and whatnot. But... I'm sure he wisheswe'd never divorced.So, as a mother (and to the degree that my own self-concept comes from myadequacy as a mother....) I have great regrets about getting divorced. I hurtmy kids. I don't feel that I should hide from that. I don't buy that wholething that "well, it is better than they see the affectionate, more positiverelationship you have with your DH than the relationship you had with yourex". No, I don't believe that-- *they* would have been better off if we hadbeen able to carry on the outwardly cordial relationship that my ex and I had.They were not privvy to the problems in my marriage; from *their* perspective,they had a really great home. I failed them.I've got to go to work.Sheila

Thanks for the insight Sheila. It sounds like our marriages are...or
were somewhat different but the feedback helps. Most of all, I'm
concerned about what a separation/divorce would do to our children.
Most parents would die for their children without giving it as much as
a thought so why not commit, like you did, for a few years to give
them time to grow and develop with both parents in the home? This is
what I am struggling with. I know there will come a time when my
marriage will end. Our therapist already said if nothing changes, he
imagines it would be when our children are out of the house. Right
now, he said it's obvious that they are the glue that is holding us
together. I know they are oblivious to that now, but as they get
older, I think it would be a hard fact to hide.

--Brian

On 19 Nov 2003 12:53:35 -0800, shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny)
wrote:
whansami@aol.com (WhansaMi) wrote in message news:<20031119065946.28548.00000491@mb-m11.aol.com>...> So, yes, from a personal perspective, the divorce was definitely positive.Wow, Shiela, you wrote exactly what I was going to say! OTOH, my kids were school-age when I divorced. That wasn't by accident. I strongly felt that those first five or six years are very important to their character and personality development.When we divorced, my oldest was going into K, the youngest was inpreschool. I agree with Shiela that the first four-six years are veryimportant. I feel very strongly that, if at all possible, one parentshould stay home with their child the first four years.Also bear in mind that experts say it takes a child, no matter whatage, an average of about four years just to process it and adapt.That's about what I saw with my own kids.jen

Well we at least got that covered! =) My wife is starting up her own
day-care center from the home in a few weeks. She's not planning on
going back to work after her maternity leave.

--Brian

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 03:56:36 GMT, "JWB" <jwbSPAMBEGONE3333@excite.com>
wrote:
"Brian" <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> wrote in messagenews:08jlrvg0qrrogdfu2sd04gfq6la8se1el3@4ax .com... I know this is the "marriage" newsgroup and all. Hey, if there were ever a more bitter and angry group of people worse then those found here, it would be them who dwell on all.support.divorce so I don't even bother going there. =) Really, I posed some questions there once and nearly got my head handed to me. I know there must be some divorcees on here and what I'm asking is this. So many people on this group seem to try to steer you away from divorce and I suppose that is justifiable. But for those of you who have gone the route of the big "D" word, were there any regrets? I look at it like this. I work in a place where people threaten to leave all the time. They complain and complain and most of them never go. But those that do, and resurface later, well, not one has ever regretted leaving. Any thoughts?Brian,I was very much like you, minus the children (she had a child - not the samething). Divorce was a great thing for me (and for her). I got my life back,and was ready to date the next day :)However, with your kids, it's bound to be a FAR different experience. Iwalked away, and saw my ex exactly one time since I left the apartment. Ihave no weekly payments. My wife doesn't have to deal with my ex in ourlives. I don't have to support two households.Plus, I don't have any kids to miss.Can you be happier with all of the above than you are right now?

I think the worse part for me would be to drop the kids off. No, what
would even be worse is for someone else to take a "fatherly" roll in
their lives. I don't know how I would handle my son calling someone
else dad, or whatever. I've had a step-father before and he and I
were always close... my dad seemed to appreciate the fact that I had
someone else in my life to care about me, but I'm not sure if I'm that
person. I would hate the fact, at least thinking about it now, that
my children would have a step parent. I know my wife would feel the
same way. I do love my wife but instead of having a nurturing
relationship, I find it often draining. I do think I could be happier
but so many things would have to go just right in order for that to
happen. We'd have to share custody of our kids, my wife would have to
keep the house (which I would help pay for of course) and our families
would have to be supportive. It's easy to say all that would happen
up front but once lines are drawn and attorneys get involved, things
would be bound to change.

--Brian

"WhansaMi" <whansami@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20031119065946.28548.00000491@mb-m11.aol.com... OTOH, my kids were school-age when I divorced. That wasn't by accident.
I strongly felt that those first five or six years are very important to
their character and personality development. I felt it was *so* important for
them to have two parents, who were both there, instead of each one trying to
deal with being a single parent (and the concomitant stretching of all
resources -- money, time, energy, emotional reserves). I did everything I could to
stay during this very vulnerable time, because, (1) I can tell you as a woman
who stayed at home for the first 6 years, and then went to work, I was a
*better* parent then, than I was as a single parent. I had more patience, I
laughed more, more of my time with my kids was spent in "quality" activities,
rather than "drive here, go there, get this done" stuff. And (2) the kids
really, really benefitted from having both parents readily available to them
during this time.

I agree it is important for kids to have two parents. In my experience
dealing with being a single parent was an important period of growth for me
and for my ex and for our child as well. Had I not divorced I might not have
gone back to study which I thoroughly enjoyed. My child might not have
benefitted from the company of other adults and children in a child care
environment. My ex had been a complete non-parent whilst we were married but
when confronted with *having* to parent (in his case one day per week) he
became quite good at it. Oh no, our son was much better off with his parents
apart.

Amy

Brian <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<uc3prv4mp6qjcsloc7aa2c45fmik17bvgm@4ax.com>... Thanks for the insight Sheila. It sounds like our marriages are...or were somewhat different but the feedback helps. Most of all, I'm concerned about what a separation/divorce would do to our children. Most parents would die for their children without giving it as much as a thought so why not commit, like you did, for a few years to give them time to grow and develop with both parents in the home? This is what I am struggling with. I know there will come a time when my marriage will end. Our therapist already said if nothing changes, he imagines it would be when our children are out of the house. Right now, he said it's obvious that they are the glue that is holding us together. I know they are oblivious to that now, but as they get older, I think it would be a hard fact to hide.

Brian, if you really feel that divorce is inevitable, then I would say
that sooner may be better than later. If you divorced now, your kids
are young enough that they will probably never know anything else. My
girls do still have memories of when we lived together. These memories
are fading, particularly with my youngest, but will never be gone
completely. Teen years are very hard, and adding a divorce into the
mix seems guaranteed for some tough painful times. As for waiting
until they're out of the house, well, I've heard lots of adult
children of divorce complain that it was still very painful because it
made them think their whole childhood was one big sham.

There's never any good time, but I'm thinking when the children are
too young to remember any other arrangement might be the least
painful. Of course, even if kids were babies when it happens, kids
seem to have a way of envying intact families of their peers!

With all that said, it really bugs me that your therapist would say
such a thing. He should remain neutral and not tell you something like
this. Make sure his opinion is not coloring your decision, okay?

jen

"Brian" <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3o3prv8i997ub3s4k7vhkj040917r0bhko@4ax.com... On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 03:56:36 GMT, "JWB" <jwbSPAMBEGONE3333@excite.com> wrote:"Brian" <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> wrote in messagenews:08jlrvg0qrrogdfu2sd04gfq6la8se1el3@4ax .com... I know this is the "marriage" newsgroup and all. Hey, if there were ever a more bitter and angry group of people worse then those found here, it would be them who dwell on all.support.divorce so I don't even bother going there. =) Really, I posed some questions there once and nearly got my head handed to me. I know there must be some divorcees on here and what I'm asking is this. So many people on this group seem to try to steer you away from divorce and I suppose that is justifiable. But for those of you who have gone the route of the big "D" word, were there any regrets? I look at it like this. I work in a place where people threaten to leave all the time. They complain and complain and most of them never go. But those that do, and resurface later, well, not one has ever regretted leaving. Any thoughts?Brian,I was very much like you, minus the children (she had a child - not the
samething). Divorce was a great thing for me (and for her). I got my life
back,and was ready to date the next day :)However, with your kids, it's bound to be a FAR different experience. Iwalked away, and saw my ex exactly one time since I left the apartment. Ihave no weekly payments. My wife doesn't have to deal with my ex in ourlives. I don't have to support two households.Plus, I don't have any kids to miss.Can you be happier with all of the above than you are right now? I think the worse part for me would be to drop the kids off. No, what would even be worse is for someone else to take a "fatherly" roll in their lives. I don't know how I would handle my son calling someone else dad, or whatever. I've had a step-father before and he and I were always close... my dad seemed to appreciate the fact that I had someone else in my life to care about me, but I'm not sure if I'm that person. I would hate the fact, at least thinking about it now, that my children would have a step parent. I know my wife would feel the same way. I do love my wife but instead of having a nurturing relationship, I find it often draining. I do think I could be happier but so many things would have to go just right in order for that to happen. We'd have to share custody of our kids, my wife would have to keep the house (which I would help pay for of course) and our families would have to be supportive. It's easy to say all that would happen up front but once lines are drawn and attorneys get involved, things would be bound to change.

Yes, that will change things, but, from reading what you just wrote, the
biggest problem you may have is the new man in her life (and there will be
one). Can you handle another man disciplining your kids, and sleeping over /
living in a house YOU help pay for? Using your garage - making it *his*
garage? Plus, how about the knowledge that your wife is probably giving him
exactly what it is you want right now (because almost all new relationships
are more physical)? All in your old bedroom, right down the hall from your
kids?

I'm not saying this to goad you or anything - it is almost inevitable that
this will happen if you move out and divorce, and you have to be prepared to
handle it gracefully (if you want things to go smooth for your kids)

JWB

Brian <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<1l3prvcj3gah8ee7qlvhq40k9v7hcuo2mt@4ax.com>...
Well we at least got that covered! =) My wife is starting up her own day-care center from the home in a few weeks. She's not planning on going back to work after her maternity leave.


Hmmm...

I don't know where you live or what you do for a living, but it may be
wise to take a hard look at the financial picture and how it is going
to be impacted by divorce. I admire that you want your wife and kids
to stay in the house, that you intend to support them all, while she
runs a day-care. But you may find out that all these plans are not
financially realistic, unless you have a very lucrative career.

For example, have you considered how much it will cost you to rent a
three-bedroom place? You'll need at least 3 beds if you want your kids
to have their own place when they are at your house. It sounds like
you want to share custody and not just have them be visitors. Can your
income support two entire, separate households? Your wife's day-care
income will help somewhat, but not much. She may have to give up that
dream and go back to work eventually.

And what happens if you remarry? What if you want more kids? Will your
career be able to support a second family as well?

My ex and I share custody 50-50. No child support exchanges hands. We
both have roughly equivalent sized households, having sold the
original marital property and split the equity. He has remarried and
expects to have more children. Honestly, the only reason we can make
it work financially is because *both* of us have lucrative careers!
Additionally, we are committed to staying within 15 miles of each
other until the kids are 18. That's no problem for me, but for him, it
impacts his job mobility and ability to advance in his career.

Just some things you might want to consider.

jen

Also some states require each child to have his/her own bedroom.. so with
two kids you would HAVE to have a 3 bedroom place

Kass
"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0311201451.74e670ce@posting.google.c om... Brian <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<1l3prvcj3gah8ee7qlvhq40k9v7hcuo2mt@4ax.com>... Well we at least got that covered! =) My wife is starting up her own day-care center from the home in a few weeks. She's not planning on going back to work after her maternity leave. Hmmm... I don't know where you live or what you do for a living, but it may be wise to take a hard look at the financial picture and how it is going to be impacted by divorce. I admire that you want your wife and kids to stay in the house, that you intend to support them all, while she runs a day-care. But you may find out that all these plans are not financially realistic, unless you have a very lucrative career. For example, have you considered how much it will cost you to rent a three-bedroom place? You'll need at least 3 beds if you want your kids to have their own place when they are at your house. It sounds like you want to share custody and not just have them be visitors. Can your income support two entire, separate households? Your wife's day-care income will help somewhat, but not much. She may have to give up that dream and go back to work eventually. And what happens if you remarry? What if you want more kids? Will your career be able to support a second family as well? My ex and I share custody 50-50. No child support exchanges hands. We both have roughly equivalent sized households, having sold the original marital property and split the equity. He has remarried and expects to have more children. Honestly, the only reason we can make it work financially is because *both* of us have lucrative careers! Additionally, we are committed to staying within 15 miles of each other until the kids are 18. That's no problem for me, but for him, it impacts his job mobility and ability to advance in his career. Just some things you might want to consider. jen

"Whisper" <whisperishere@bctonline.com> writes:
Also some states require each child to have his/her own bedroom.. so with two kids you would HAVE to have a 3 bedroom place

Can this really be true? Which states? And under what circumstances?
That seems totally bizarre!

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 21:51:35 GMT, "JWB" <jwbSPAMBEGONE3333@excite.com>
wrote:
"Brian" <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> wrote in messagenews:3o3prv8i997ub3s4k7vhkj040917r0bhko@4ax .com... On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 03:56:36 GMT, "JWB" <jwbSPAMBEGONE3333@excite.com> wrote:"Brian" <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> wrote in messagenews:08jlrvg0qrrogdfu2sd04gfq6la8se1el3@4ax .com...>> I know this is the "marriage" newsgroup and all. Hey, if there were> ever a more bitter and angry group of people worse then those found> here, it would be them who dwell on all.support.divorce so I don't> even bother going there. =) Really, I posed some questions there once> and nearly got my head handed to me. I know there must be some> divorcees on here and what I'm asking is this. So many people on this> group seem to try to steer you away from divorce and I suppose that is> justifiable. But for those of you who have gone the route of the big> "D" word, were there any regrets? I look at it like this. I work in> a place where people threaten to leave all the time. They complain> and complain and most of them never go. But those that do, and> resurface later, well, not one has ever regretted leaving. Any> thoughts?Brian,I was very much like you, minus the children (she had a child - not thesamething). Divorce was a great thing for me (and for her). I got my lifeback,and was ready to date the next day :)However, with your kids, it's bound to be a FAR different experience. Iwalked away, and saw my ex exactly one time since I left the apartment. Ihave no weekly payments. My wife doesn't have to deal with my ex in ourlives. I don't have to support two households.Plus, I don't have any kids to miss.Can you be happier with all of the above than you are right now? I think the worse part for me would be to drop the kids off. No, what would even be worse is for someone else to take a "fatherly" roll in their lives. I don't know how I would handle my son calling someone else dad, or whatever. I've had a step-father before and he and I were always close... my dad seemed to appreciate the fact that I had someone else in my life to care about me, but I'm not sure if I'm that person. I would hate the fact, at least thinking about it now, that my children would have a step parent. I know my wife would feel the same way. I do love my wife but instead of having a nurturing relationship, I find it often draining. I do think I could be happier but so many things would have to go just right in order for that to happen. We'd have to share custody of our kids, my wife would have to keep the house (which I would help pay for of course) and our families would have to be supportive. It's easy to say all that would happen up front but once lines are drawn and attorneys get involved, things would be bound to change.Yes, that will change things, but, from reading what you just wrote, thebiggest problem you may have is the new man in her life (and there will beone). Can you handle another man disciplining your kids, and sleeping over /living in a house YOU help pay for? Using your garage - making it *his*garage? Plus, how about the knowledge that your wife is probably giving himexactly what it is you want right now (because almost all new relationshipsare more physical)? All in your old bedroom, right down the hall from yourkids?I'm not saying this to goad you or anything - it is almost inevitable thatthis will happen if you move out and divorce, and you have to be prepared tohandle it gracefully (if you want things to go smooth for your kids)JWB

Christ, JWB... I knew that stuff would happen but I don't know how I
would handle it.

--Brian

>Brian, if you really feel that divorce is inevitable, then I would saythat sooner may be better than later. If you divorced now, your kidsare young enough that they will probably never know anything else. Mygirls do still have memories of when we lived together. These memoriesare fading, particularly with my youngest, but will never be gonecompletely. Teen years are very hard, and adding a divorce into themix seems guaranteed for some tough painful times. As for waitinguntil they're out of the house, well, I've heard lots of adultchildren of divorce complain that it was still very painful because itmade them think their whole childhood was one big sham.There's never any good time, but I'm thinking when the children aretoo young to remember any other arrangement might be the leastpainful. Of course, even if kids were babies when it happens, kidsseem to have a way of envying intact families of their peers!With all that said, it really bugs me that your therapist would saysuch a thing. He should remain neutral and not tell you something likethis. Make sure his opinion is not coloring your decision, okay?jen

Jen, while I understand that you would be hoping to avoid the acute pain of
separation and lessen the time for readjustment for the children, I have to say
I respectfully disagree with you.

I remember what the infancy and toddlerhood years were like. I, also, remember
what the first few years of separation and divorce were like. It doesn't seem
to me that the intensive work of caring for an infant/toddler -- of providing
them with gentle guidance and of providing a secure, consistent environment---
is compatible with the process of separating from one another, with all the
concommitant pain, and anger, and feelings of betrayal, and negotiation, and,
yes, sadly, those times when the kids are caught in the middle of two people
who are in distress. Is it really better for these small children to have to
go between homes, different nights in different beds? Is it really better for
their mother to have to go back to work (because, while they can make it with
her doing day care if they are supporting one household, will that cover two
households?) or, alternatively, to spend all day surrounded by a passel of
children, with no respite by way of adult company (or relief) in the evening?
And, having been divorced yourself, I'd be surprise if you haven't had the
experience that even the most well-meaning parent has had where they find
themselves "one-upping" the other parent, or being less than supportive of
disciplinary actions because of what is going on between them, rather than with
the kids. My own ex, after years of insisting that DS not have play guns, went
out and bought him one within the first 2 months of our separating. He said,
"Oh, but he is so unhappy right now, I just wanted to make him happy, and he
wanted it."

Brian, if you want my opinion, I think your **children** are better off with
both parents, at least for the first five or six years. As you said, my
situation is very different from yours. Mine involved two of the "Four A's",
as someone else call them (addiction and adultery). Yes, there was also
emotional and physical estrangement. We hadn't been intimate -- emotionally or
physically -- for years when we separated. But, ultimately, one thing I feel
really good about is that I stayed with it during this most vulnerable and
critical time. Was it difficult for me? Damn straight. But it was worth it.

Sheila

whansami@aol.com (WhansaMi) writes:
Brian, if you really feel that divorce is inevitable, then I would saythat sooner may be better than later. If you divorced now, your kidsare young enough that they will probably never know anything else. Mygirls do still have memories of when we lived together. These memoriesare fading, particularly with my youngest, but will never be gonecompletely. Teen years are very hard, and adding a divorce into themix seems guaranteed for some tough painful times. As for waitinguntil they're out of the house, well, I've heard lots of adultchildren of divorce complain that it was still very painful because itmade them think their whole childhood was one big sham.There's never any good time, but I'm thinking when the children aretoo young to remember any other arrangement might be the leastpainful. Of course, even if kids were babies when it happens, kidsseem to have a way of envying intact families of their peers!With all that said, it really bugs me that your therapist would saysuch a thing. He should remain neutral and not tell you something likethis. Make sure his opinion is not coloring your decision, okay?jen Jen, while I understand that you would be hoping to avoid the acute pain of separation and lessen the time for readjustment for the children, I have to say I respectfully disagree with you. I remember what the infancy and toddlerhood years were like. I, also, remember what the first few years of separation and divorce were like. It doesn't seem to me that the intensive work of caring for an infant/toddler -- of providing them with gentle guidance and of providing a secure, consistent environment--- is compatible with the process of separating from one another, with all the concommitant pain, and anger, and feelings of betrayal, and negotiation, and, yes, sadly, those times when the kids are caught in the middle of two people who are in distress. Is it really better for these small children to have to go between homes, different nights in different beds? Is it really better for their mother to have to go back to work (because, while they can make it with her doing day care if they are supporting one household, will that cover two households?) or, alternatively, to spend all day surrounded by a passel of children, with no respite by way of adult company (or relief) in the evening?

Possibly the answer is "yes" if the alternative is to live with
parents who are barely supressing their own unhappiness with their
situation and with each other.

People think they are able to hide their emotional lives from their
children, but my experience, as both a child and a parent, is that one
is rarely successful doing that, and that even succeeding has
consequences for children.

So there is more than one possible answer to these questions you ask.

>> I remember what the infancy and toddlerhood years were like. I, also,remember what the first few years of separation and divorce were like. It doesn'tseem to me that the intensive work of caring for an infant/toddler -- ofproviding them with gentle guidance and of providing a secure, consistentenvironment--- is compatible with the process of separating from one another, with all the concommitant pain, and anger, and feelings of betrayal, and negotiation,and, yes, sadly, those times when the kids are caught in the middle of twopeople who are in distress. Is it really better for these small children to haveto go between homes, different nights in different beds? Is it really betterfor their mother to have to go back to work (because, while they can make itwith her doing day care if they are supporting one household, will that covertwo households?) or, alternatively, to spend all day surrounded by a passel of children, with no respite by way of adult company (or relief) in theevening?Possibly the answer is "yes" if the alternative is to live withparents who are barely supressing their own unhappiness with theirsituation and with each other.

Yes, I am assuming civility between the marital partners. In this case, with
Brian and his wife, I have no reason to believe that they are not civil to one
another. He says they are. I'll take him at his word.
People think they are able to hide their emotional lives from theirchildren, but my experience, as both a child and a parent, is that oneis rarely successful doing that, and that even succeeding hasconsequences for children.So there is more than one possible answer to these questions you ask.

Well, that is certainly your opinion and your take on it. Surely, there can be
more than one opinion, out there but I was speaking for *my* opinion on the
matter, specifically, and it was explicity as my opinion and that is that if
the principles involved can be civil with one another, I think it is always
better for the kids to have both parents there during these critical years.

Sheila

WhansaMi wrote: Brian, if you really feel that divorce is inevitable, then I would say that sooner may be better than later. If you divorced now, your kids are young enough that they will probably never know anything else. My girls do still have memories of when we lived together. These memories are fading, particularly with my youngest, but will never be gone completely. Teen years are very hard, and adding a divorce into the mix seems guaranteed for some tough painful times. As for waiting until they're out of the house, well, I've heard lots of adult children of divorce complain that it was still very painful because it made them think their whole childhood was one big sham. There's never any good time, but I'm thinking when the children are too young to remember any other arrangement might be the least painful. Of course, even if kids were babies when it happens, kids seem to have a way of envying intact families of their peers! With all that said, it really bugs me that your therapist would say such a thing. He should remain neutral and not tell you something like this. Make sure his opinion is not coloring your decision, okay? jen Jen, while I understand that you would be hoping to avoid the acute pain of separation and lessen the time for readjustment for the children, I have to say I respectfully disagree with you. I remember what the infancy and toddlerhood years were like. I, also, remember what the first few years of separation and divorce were like. It doesn't seem to me that the intensive work of caring for an infant/toddler -- of providing them with gentle guidance and of providing a secure, consistent environment--- is compatible with the process of separating from one another, with all the concommitant pain, and anger, and feelings of betrayal, and negotiation, and, yes, sadly, those times when the kids are caught in the middle of two people who are in distress. Is it really better for these small children to have to go between homes, different nights in different beds? Is it really better for their mother to have to go back to work (because, while they can make it with her doing day care if they are supporting one household, will that cover two households?) or, alternatively, to spend all day surrounded by a passel of children, with no respite by way of adult company (or relief) in the evening? And, having been divorced yourself, I'd be surprise if you haven't had the experience that even the most well-meaning parent has had where they find themselves "one-upping" the other parent, or being less than supportive of disciplinary actions because of what is going on between them, rather than with the kids. My own ex, after years of insisting that DS not have play guns, went out and bought him one within the first 2 months of our separating. He said, "Oh, but he is so unhappy right now, I just wanted to make him happy, and he wanted it." Brian, if you want my opinion, I think your **children** are better off with both parents, at least for the first five or six years. As you said, my situation is very different from yours. Mine involved two of the "Four A's", as someone else call them (addiction and adultery). Yes, there was also emotional and physical estrangement. We hadn't been intimate -- emotionally or physically -- for years when we separated. But, ultimately, one thing I feel really good about is that I stayed with it during this most vulnerable and critical time. Was it difficult for me? Damn straight. But it was worth it. Sheila

I agree with you, Sheila. And equally, if not more importantly, it was worth
it for the kids. Or actually, that's probably why it was so important to
you, I would guess.

whansami@aol.com (WhansaMi) writes:
Possibly the answer is "yes" if the alternative is to live withparents who are barely supressing their own unhappiness with theirsituation and with each other. Yes, I am assuming civility between the marital partners. In this case, with Brian and his wife, I have no reason to believe that they are not civil to one another. He says they are. I'll take him at his word.

So am I. "Civility" isn't enough to disguise unhappiness. One can be
depressed, and still civil. Children will be able to tell. One can
be desparately unhappy and still be civil. Children will be able to
tell.

So civility is necessary, but not enough.

Example: your own child who, in spite of your and your husband's civil
behavior (which I imagine continued through the divorce? Or maybe
not.) concludes that his parents don't like each other.
People think they are able to hide their emotional lives from theirchildren, but my experience, as both a child and a parent, is that oneis rarely successful doing that, and that even succeeding hasconsequences for children.So there is more than one possible answer to these questions you ask. Well, that is certainly your opinion and your take on it. Surely, there can be more than one opinion,

Right. That is what I said.
out there but I was speaking for *my* opinion on the matter, specifically, and it was explicity as my opinion

Yep. And my opinion is mine.
and that is that if the principles involved can be civil with one another, I think it is always better for the kids to have both parents there during these critical years.

I understand. I just don't think civility is enough. But you do, and
that's fine with me.

>Well, that is certainly your opinion and your take on it. Surely, there canbemore than one opinion, out there but I was speaking for *my* opinion on thematter, specifically, and it was explicity as my opinion and that is that ifthe principles involved can be civil with one another, I think it is alwaysbetter for the kids to have both parents there during these critical years.Sheila


Oops, missed some punctuation in the rewrite (DH is breathing down my neck to
come and watch Survivor, which is being PVRed!). Let me try again:

Doug, you say there can be more than one answer to my questions. Yes, I'm sure
there can be, and they can range from "Hey, no kid needs a mother and a father
anyway, so hell, Brian, run away from it all and start over!" to my opinion
that, unless there is abuse or constant fighting between the parents the kids
are better off with both parents (and in the case of the latter, I think that
the parents owe it to the kids to go into therapy and do EVERYTHING they can to
find a better route to conflict resolution).

But, ultimately, it was *my* perspective I was putting out there. The
questions were *rhetorical*. They were expressing my opinion, as I indicated
in my opening to Jen (when I said that I respectfully disagreed with her). I
was making a point.

Sheila

Doug Anderson wrote: whansami@aol.com (WhansaMi) writes: Brian, if you really feel that divorce is inevitable, then I would say that sooner may be better than later. If you divorced now, your kids are young enough that they will probably never know anything else. My girls do still have memories of when we lived together. These memories are fading, particularly with my youngest, but will never be gone completely. Teen years are very hard, and adding a divorce into the mix seems guaranteed for some tough painful times. As for waiting until they're out of the house, well, I've heard lots of adult children of divorce complain that it was still very painful because it made them think their whole childhood was one big sham. There's never any good time, but I'm thinking when the children are too young to remember any other arrangement might be the least painful. Of course, even if kids were babies when it happens, kids seem to have a way of envying intact families of their peers! With all that said, it really bugs me that your therapist would say such a thing. He should remain neutral and not tell you something like this. Make sure his opinion is not coloring your decision, okay? jen Jen, while I understand that you would be hoping to avoid the acute pain of separation and lessen the time for readjustment for the children, I have to say I respectfully disagree with you. I remember what the infancy and toddlerhood years were like. I, also, remember what the first few years of separation and divorce were like. It doesn't seem to me that the intensive work of caring for an infant/toddler -- of providing them with gentle guidance and of providing a secure, consistent environment--- is compatible with the process of separating from one another, with all the concommitant pain, and anger, and feelings of betrayal, and negotiation, and, yes, sadly, those times when the kids are caught in the middle of two people who are in distress. Is it really better for these small children to have to go between homes, different nights in different beds? Is it really better for their mother to have to go back to work (because, while they can make it with her doing day care if they are supporting one household, will that cover two households?) or, alternatively, to spend all day surrounded by a passel of children, with no respite by way of adult company (or relief) in the evening? Possibly the answer is "yes" if the alternative is to live with parents who are barely supressing their own unhappiness with their situation and with each other.

That *can* be achieved, if they truly care enough about their family together.
It just takes a little bit of counseling, time, work, and maturity. IMO

"Brian" <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:l7nqrv411ceemc2vtjhdshthqidmprba3v@4ax.com... On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 21:51:35 GMT, "JWB" <jwbSPAMBEGONE3333@excite.com> wrote:"Brian" <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> wrote in messagenews:3o3prv8i997ub3s4k7vhkj040917r0bhko@4ax .com... On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 03:56:36 GMT, "JWB" <jwbSPAMBEGONE3333@excite.com> wrote: >"Brian" <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> wrote in message >news:08jlrvg0qrrogdfu2sd04gfq6la8se1el3@4ax.com... >> >> I know this is the "marriage" newsgroup and all. Hey, if there were >> ever a more bitter and angry group of people worse then those found >> here, it would be them who dwell on all.support.divorce so I don't >> even bother going there. =) Really, I posed some questions there
once >> and nearly got my head handed to me. I know there must be some >> divorcees on here and what I'm asking is this. So many people on
this >> group seem to try to steer you away from divorce and I suppose that
is >> justifiable. But for those of you who have gone the route of the
big >> "D" word, were there any regrets? I look at it like this. I work
in >> a place where people threaten to leave all the time. They complain >> and complain and most of them never go. But those that do, and >> resurface later, well, not one has ever regretted leaving. Any >> thoughts? > >Brian, > >I was very much like you, minus the children (she had a child - not
thesame >thing). Divorce was a great thing for me (and for her). I got my lifeback, >and was ready to date the next day :) > >However, with your kids, it's bound to be a FAR different experience.
I >walked away, and saw my ex exactly one time since I left the
apartment. I >have no weekly payments. My wife doesn't have to deal with my ex in
our >lives. I don't have to support two households. > >Plus, I don't have any kids to miss. > >Can you be happier with all of the above than you are right now? > I think the worse part for me would be to drop the kids off. No, what would even be worse is for someone else to take a "fatherly" roll in their lives. I don't know how I would handle my son calling someone else dad, or whatever. I've had a step-father before and he and I were always close... my dad seemed to appreciate the fact that I had someone else in my life to care about me, but I'm not sure if I'm that person. I would hate the fact, at least thinking about it now, that my children would have a step parent. I know my wife would feel the same way. I do love my wife but instead of having a nurturing relationship, I find it often draining. I do think I could be happier but so many things would have to go just right in order for that to happen. We'd have to share custody of our kids, my wife would have to keep the house (which I would help pay for of course) and our families would have to be supportive. It's easy to say all that would happen up front but once lines are drawn and attorneys get involved, things would be bound to change.Yes, that will change things, but, from reading what you just wrote, thebiggest problem you may have is the new man in her life (and there will
beone). Can you handle another man disciplining your kids, and sleeping
over /living in a house YOU help pay for? Using your garage - making it *his*garage? Plus, how about the knowledge that your wife is probably giving
himexactly what it is you want right now (because almost all new
relationshipsare more physical)? All in your old bedroom, right down the hall from
yourkids?I'm not saying this to goad you or anything - it is almost inevitable
thatthis will happen if you move out and divorce, and you have to be prepared
tohandle it gracefully (if you want things to go smooth for your kids)JWB Christ, JWB... I knew that stuff would happen but I don't know how I would handle it.

That was my whole point in bringing it up - to make you go "Christ" ;)

Seriously, it would be ugly, and I know the stuff I wrote about would drive
*me* nuts.

JWB

whansami@aol.com (WhansaMi) writes:
Well, that is certainly your opinion and your take on it. Surely, there canbemore than one opinion, out there but I was speaking for *my* opinion on thematter, specifically, and it was explicity as my opinion and that is that ifthe principles involved can be civil with one another, I think it is alwaysbetter for the kids to have both parents there during these critical years.Sheila Oops, missed some punctuation in the rewrite (DH is breathing down my neck to come and watch Survivor, which is being PVRed!). Let me try again: Doug, you say there can be more than one answer to my questions. Yes, I'm sure there can be, and they can range from "Hey, no kid needs a mother and a father anyway, so hell, Brian, run away from it all and start over!" to my opinion that, unless there is abuse or constant fighting between the parents the kids are better off with both parents (and in the case of the latter, I think that the parents owe it to the kids to go into therapy and do EVERYTHING they can to find a better route to conflict resolution). But, ultimately, it was *my* perspective I was putting out there. The questions were *rhetorical*. They were expressing my opinion, as I indicated in my opening to Jen (when I said that I respectfully disagreed with her). I was making a point.

I'm confused. Did I say you were wrong? Did I say "that's only your
opinion?" I just posted my opinion. So why do I feel like your so
bent out of shape about it?

Doug Anderson wrote: whansami@aol.com (WhansaMi) writes: Well, that is certainly your opinion and your take on it. Surely, there
can be more than one opinion, out there but I was speaking for *my* opinion on the matter, specifically, and it was explicity as my opinion and that is that
if the principles involved can be civil with one another, I think it is always better for the kids to have both parents there during these critical years. Sheila Oops, missed some punctuation in the rewrite (DH is breathing down my neck
to come and watch Survivor, which is being PVRed!). Let me try again: Doug, you say there can be more than one answer to my questions. Yes, I'm sure there can be, and they can range from "Hey, no kid needs a mother and a father anyway, so hell, Brian, run away from it all and start over!" to my opinion that, unless there is abuse or constant fighting between the parents the kids are better off with both parents (and in the case of the latter, I think that the parents owe it to the kids to go into therapy and do EVERYTHING they can to find a better route to conflict resolution). But, ultimately, it was *my* perspective I was putting out there. The questions were *rhetorical*. They were expressing my opinion, as I
indicated in my opening to Jen (when I said that I respectfully disagreed with her).
I was making a point. I'm confused. Did I say you were wrong? Did I say "that's only your opinion?" I just posted my opinion. So why do I feel like your so bent out of shape about it?

Is there a pattern here, Doug? (You don't have to reply, it's just something
to consider).

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 01:57:40 GMT, Doug Anderson
<ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote: whansami@aol.com (WhansaMi) writes:

<Snip>
or that they feel emotionally distant from one another. That is what I disagree about. I think they are going to notice it, and that they are going to care about it.

So to solve that particular problem, you split up so your children don't
suspect you don't particularly like each other, they know it. Sounds like
a plan to me.

-Tony

--
"If the grass appears to be greener on the other side of the fence, it's time
to fertilize your lawn!"
Want to jump start your marriage? Consider a Marriage Encounter weekend.
Check out http://www.wwme.org for more information.

Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> writes:
On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 01:57:40 GMT, Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote: whansami@aol.com (WhansaMi) writes: <Snip> or that they feel emotionally distant from one another. That is what I disagree about. I think they are going to notice it, and that they are going to care about it. So to solve that particular problem, you split up so your children don't suspect you don't particularly like each other, they know it. Sounds like a plan to me.

I think it is very unhealthy to be telling your children one thing,
when they can see something different is the truth.

whansami@aol.com (WhansaMi) wrote in message news:<20031120201554.28353.00000670@mb-m11.aol.com>...

Jen, while I understand that you would be hoping to avoid the acute pain of separation and lessen the time for readjustment for the children, I have to say I respectfully disagree with you.

Hi Shiela,
I was basing my response on what I thought Brian was asking, "If
divorce is inevitable, what is the best time to do it?" There really
is no "best" time (preschool, grade school, teen years, college) --
each stage has its own drawbacks.

I was suggesting that perhaps when children are very young might be
the lesser of the evils. You do bring up a lot of good points that I
hadn't considered, however. I was primarily thinking that if Brian
divorced now his children would grow up never knowing any other
arrangement, and that might ultimately be easier on them.

I remember what the infancy and toddlerhood years were like. I, also, remember what the first few years of separation and divorce were like. It doesn't seem to me that the intensive work of caring for an infant/toddler -- of providing them with gentle guidance and of providing a secure, consistent environment--- is compatible with the process of separating from one another, with all the concommitant pain, and anger, and feelings of betrayal, and negotiation, and, yes, sadly, those times when the kids are caught in the middle of two people who are in distress. Is it really better for these small children to have to go between homes, different nights in different beds?

Brian and his wife might work out an arrangement where she cares for
their children during the day, and he has them at night, or Brian's
time with the kids slowly increase as they get older. If they are both
motivated to maintain consistency while also maintaining access to
both parents, I do believe they could come up with a workable
arrangement. Of course, that is a big "IF." I think Brian is motivated
but we have no idea how his wife is going to react.

For example, I have a friend who divorced while his wife was pregnant.
They were very motivated to co-parent from the beginning. He quit his
job and has the child during the day while she works; the child is
then with her every night. Then there are others who have a nesting
arrangement. In that situation, the infant stays put in the home, and
the parents rotate in and out. It demands creativity and motivation,
and unfortunately divorcing couples aren't often thinking that way.

Is it really better for their mother to have to go back to work (because, while they can make it with her doing day care if they are supporting one household, will that cover two households?) or, alternatively, to spend all day surrounded by a passel of children, with no respite by way of adult company (or relief) in the evening? And, having been divorced yourself, I'd be surprise if you haven't had the experience that even the most well-meaning parent has had where they find themselves "one-upping" the other parent, or being less than supportive of disciplinary actions because of what is going on between them, rather than with the kids.

I think this happens no matter what age the children are!!
My own ex, after years of insisting that DS not have play guns, went out and bought him one within the first 2 months of our separating. He said, "Oh, but he is so unhappy right now, I just wanted to make him happy, and he wanted it." Brian, if you want my opinion, I think your **children** are better off with both parents, at least for the first five or six years. As you said, my situation is very different from yours. Mine involved two of the "Four A's", as someone else call them (addiction and adultery). Yes, there was also emotional and physical estrangement. We hadn't been intimate -- emotionally or physically -- for years when we separated. But, ultimately, one thing I feel really good about is that I stayed with it during this most vulnerable and critical time. Was it difficult for me? Damn straight. But it was worth it.


I probably could have waited a little longer, until my career was on
more solid footing. That may have lessened the stress a bit. But then
again, there would have been much higher level of stress under the
marital roof, since he was dead-set against me going back to work. I
don't know if you would call what we had a "civil" relationship at
that point. I was sleeping in the guest bedroom, and we avoided each
other at all costs. We were both pretty bitter and seething
underneath, no matter how "civil" we thought we appeared to outsiders.

Also, I found myself distracted all the time, dealing with my own
feelings of anger, resentment, frustration. I can't see how that was
good for my kids. No, it was much better after I left. Then the choice
was made, I was on my own, and I could concentrate and focus much
better on the kids and helping them deal with the fallout of that
decision.

jen

Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<KEgvb.259099$HS4.2335477@attbi_s01>... Tony Miller <tony@cigardiary.com> writes: On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 01:57:40 GMT, Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote: whansami@aol.com (WhansaMi) writes: <Snip>> or that they feel emotionally distant from one another. That is what I disagree about. I think they are going to notice it, and that they are going to care about it. So to solve that particular problem, you split up so your children don't suspect you don't particularly like each other, they know it. Sounds like a plan to me. I think it is very unhealthy to be telling your children one thing, when they can see something different is the truth.

Yeah, me, too. But I'll add that I agree with Shiela that very young
kids are pretty ego-centric and don't necessarily pick up on the
nuances of their parents' relationship.

With the caveat that it depends very much on the kid!! My oldest has
always been very empathetic and can pick up easily on my unhappiness,
no matter how hard I try to hide it. She's like that with everyone.
She picks up on underlying emotions and feels them very intently.

jen

whansami@aol.com (WhansaMi) wrote in message news:<20031120204032.28353.00000673@mb-m11.aol.com>...
Oh well, I disagree. It has beenmy experience (backed up by all the developmental psychology I've ever read) that children at that age are ego-centric. They don't spend time analyzing the nuances of their parent's relationships.

I agree with this, with the caveat that some kids are more perceptive
and empathetic than others. They may pick up on the underlying
emotion, but not be able to process what it means. So it depends on
the kid.
They need security, they need guidance, they need love, they need affection, they need to see how to handle conflict.

They need to know that even if mom and dad don't love each other or
live with each other, mom and dad are in control!! I think that's very
important to a child. If divorcing parents can maintain an attitude
that they know what they're doing and it is for the best, I think the
children adapt much easier.

jen

whansami@aol.com (WhansaMi) wrote in message news:<20031120203618.28353.00000672@mb-m11.aol.com>...Well, that is certainly your opinion and your take on it. Surely, there canbemore than one opinion, out there but I was speaking for *my* opinion on thematter, specifically, and it was explicity as my opinion and that is that ifthe principles involved can be civil with one another, I think it is alwaysbetter for the kids to have both parents there during these critical years.Sheila Oops, missed some punctuation in the rewrite (DH is breathing down my neck to come and watch Survivor, which is being PVRed!). Let me try again: Doug, you say there can be more than one answer to my questions. Yes, I'm sure there can be, and they can range from "Hey, no kid needs a mother and a father anyway, so hell, Brian, run away from it all and start over!" to my opinion that, unless there is abuse or constant fighting between the parents the kids are better off with both parents (and in the case of the latter, I think that the parents owe it to the kids to go into therapy and do EVERYTHING they can to find a better route to conflict resolution). But, ultimately, it was *my* perspective I was putting out there. The questions were *rhetorical*. They were expressing my opinion, as I indicated in my opening to Jen (when I said that I respectfully disagreed with her). I was making a point. Sheila

I hope I explained my line of thinking when I wrote that response. I
was hearing Brian say that divorce is inevitable, so what is the best
time to go through with it. I wasn't encouraging him to get a divorce,
but neither was I trying to talk him into working on the marriage if
his mind is already made up.

Also in the back of my mind is the thought that by starting the dialog
with his wife NOW, it might be enough dynamite to kick her into gear
to want to make changes and work to save the relationship. I'm not
clear how much he's discussed divorce with her, nor how she feels
about divorcing. I would worry if he decided on his own that he was
going to "punch the clock" and merely put in his time until the kids
were older, unbeknownst to his wife. What if she takes that as tacit
acceptance of the marriage and then down the road is surprised?

Also I can imagine "putting in his time" might make Brian more
vulnerable to an extramarital affair while he's waiting it out. Even
if his wife agrees to put in time, too, an extramarital affair (on
either side) would likely complicate a divorce and make it more
hostile and messy. Not to mention it would add a third person into the
emotional mix.

This is partly why, once I knew for sure I wanted a divorce, I didn't
wait around for long. I just knew that if I did, I'd end up having an
affair. That would have made things worse for everyone involved. Also,
once my decision had been made, I felt it was best to rip off the
proverbial band-aid so we could all start getting over it. But then
perhaps my tolerance for long-drawn out anticipation of pain is low to
begin with!!!

jen

shinypenny wrote: whansami@aol.com (WhansaMi) wrote in message news:<20031120203618.28353.00000672@mb-m11.aol.com>... Well, that is certainly your opinion and your take on it. Surely, there
can be more than one opinion, out there but I was speaking for *my* opinion on the matter, specifically, and it was explicity as my opinion and that is that
if the principles involved can be civil with one another, I think it is always better for the kids to have both parents there during these critical years. Sheila Oops, missed some punctuation in the rewrite (DH is breathing down my neck
to come and watch Survivor, which is being PVRed!). Let me try again: Doug, you say there can be more than one answer to my questions. Yes, I'm sure there can be, and they can range from "Hey, no kid needs a mother and a father anyway, so hell, Brian, run away from it all and start over!" to my opinion that, unless there is abuse or constant fighting between the parents the kids are better off with both parents (and in the case of the latter, I think that the parents owe it to the kids to go into therapy and do EVERYTHING they can to find a better route to conflict resolution). But, ultimately, it was *my* perspective I was putting out there. The questions were *rhetorical*. They were expressing my opinion, as I
indicated in my opening to Jen (when I said that I respectfully disagreed with her).
I was making a point. Sheila I hope I explained my line of thinking when I wrote that response. I was hearing Brian say that divorce is inevitable, so what is the best

Is anything really inevitable, though? How would anyone truly know?
time to go through with it. I wasn't encouraging him to get a divorce, but neither was I trying to talk him into working on the marriage if his mind is already made up.

But why not? There is too much to loose here, with the kids. It worked
once, and it could possibly work again, with counseling. If not, the results
are probably going to be more catastrophic for all parties, and most sadly, the
children. "When the going gets tough, the tough get going" - on working out
their differences.

Brian <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> wrote:
But for those of you who have gone the route of the big "D" word, were there any regrets?

No. I think I would have had more regrets if I hadn't tried really hard
to save the marriage first (therapy and so on). Also, I did not have
children, which IMO mandates even more such attempts. My advice to
people considering divorce is to make sure they have fixed themselves
first (no getting divorced while depressed, only to find out you are
just as depressed single, for example); and then to make every
reasonable attempt to make the marriage good. If you've done these
things, I think the chances of regrets are reduced greatly.

All of these comments assume two fairly healthy people and a
semi-functional relationship, BTW. When there's abuse or an alcoholic
who won't stop drinking, I advocate getting out of there.

shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) wrote in message
I was basing my response on what I thought Brian was asking, "If divorce is inevitable, what is the best time to do it?" There really is no "best" time (preschool, grade school, teen years, college) -- each stage has its own drawbacks.

If these are equally available choices, I'd say college is definitely
best!

I have stayed away from this thread because I don't have personal
experience with divorce, but have seen quite a few to know that there
are no general rules. It all depends on the situation.

One thing that I have observed is that many times the couple may think
through the process very carefully and try their best to reduce the
impact on their children, only to face a situation which they couldn't
have planned for. This usually happens when one or both parents find
someone else. All of a sudden their lives take a turn in a way that
disrupt all those preplannings. In the cases that I know children have
suffered much more because of the new realities in their parents'
lives than the fact that they separated - in every way, from priority
given to the children, to moving far away from them, to emotional,
physical, financial, available time, and everything else that they had
thought about and planned for prior to the arrival of new partner.

Of course there are also cases where the new partners enrich the
children's live's, but I have seen too many sad incidents of
step-partner problems (and not because the new people are bad either,
it's just the nature of the situation).

ellie_first@yahoo.com (Ellie) wrote in message news:<f4d2c585.0311211052.f0a5d83@posting.google.com>... shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) wrote in message I was basing my response on what I thought Brian was asking, "If divorce is inevitable, what is the best time to do it?" There really is no "best" time (preschool, grade school, teen years, college) -- each stage has its own drawbacks. If these are equally available choices, I'd say college is definitely best! I have stayed away from this thread because I don't have personal experience with divorce, but have seen quite a few to know that there are no general rules. It all depends on the situation. One thing that I have observed is that many times the couple may think through the process very carefully and try their best to reduce the impact on their children, only to face a situation which they couldn't have planned for. This usually happens when one or both parents find someone else. All of a sudden their lives take a turn in a way that disrupt all those preplannings. In the cases that I know children have suffered much more because of the new realities in their parents' lives than the fact that they separated - in every way, from priority given to the children, to moving far away from them, to emotional, physical, financial, available time, and everything else that they had thought about and planned for prior to the arrival of new partner. Of course there are also cases where the new partners enrich the children's live's, but I have seen too many sad incidents of step-partner problems (and not because the new people are bad either, it's just the nature of the situation).

It's funny you should say that! I just got off the phone with an old
dear friend who is beside herself because her mother is in a new
relationship. Even though her mom's been widowed for two years now!!!
We're not even talking divorce here!

My friend is 38 years old with her own family, and it's been quite a
long time since she lived at home. And yet, she still feels this way,
as if her mom is somehow betraying the memory of her dad. What makes
it even more ironic is that her parents had a tumultuous relationship
for decades. When she was a teen she discovered divorce papers that
were dated but never signed. The date was right around when her mom
must've been 3 months pregnant with her!

For years I've listened to my friend complain that her parents should
never have stayed married for the sake of the kids, that her mom
should get a backbone and divorce her father. Her father was an
alcoholic, and she got it in her head it was because the marriage was
so terrible.

And now this! Her father is deceased and her mom free to remarry. My
friend had a hard time explaining her reaction - she kept saying,
"It's my inner child that's reacting here, and I know it doesn't make
any sense for me to be upset about this."

Anyway....

While step-parenting does create a lot of potential problems,
personally I think that what is more harmful to children is when the
parents don't effectively move on, but still harbor a nasty attachment
to each other, and yes, you do see this more often in step-family
situations. This is when things tend to be most hostile and you see
the ex's trying to out-do each other, or they'll pump the child for
details of their ex's love life, they try to prevent access as a way
to get revenge on their ex, or every confrontation will turn into a
WWWIII rehash of the problems they had in their marriage. The parents
may each remarry, but they still remain attached emotionally and play
all sorts of head games with each other. They simply haven't resolved
their issues yet.

I think that is worse than finding a new love, the distraction of
which is often of the temporary sort (unless you're the type
constantly going from one relationship to the next).

When my ex met his wife, he was distracted for awhile, particularly
around the planning for the wedding. This is no different than parents
getting distracted over work or health or other priorities & worries,
IMHO. It's normal. After the wedding and initial honeymoon period, he
came back more focussed on the children than ever. Probably more so,
since he now feels like he has an intact family to share with them
when they're at his house! He's definetly much more happy with his
life, and that reflects on how he deals with the kids and the kind of
environment they are in when they're with him.

And vice versa, at my house!

jen

mbjq@earthlink.net (Emma Anne) wrote in message news:<1g4rryu.ls6uto4a6ljbN%mbjq@earthlink.net>... Brian <jbrianchamberlin@yahoo.com> wrote: But for those of you who have gone the route of the big "D" word, were there any regrets? No. I think I would have had more regrets if I hadn't tried really hard to save the marriage first (therapy and so on). Also, I did not have children, which IMO mandates even more such attempts. My advice to people considering divorce is to make sure they have fixed themselves first (no getting divorced while depressed, only to find out you are just as depressed single, for example); and then to make every reasonable attempt to make the marriage good. If you've done these things, I think the chances of regrets are reduced greatly.

And also, if divorce is inevitable, to try and heal the relationship
before moving on to the next one. That may mean being on your ex's
schedule instead of your own for quite awhile post-divorce. While I
dated after the divorce, I waited until my ex was healed enough that
he was dating someone seriously, before I introduced the guy I was
dating to our kids.

jen

shinypenny wrote: ellie_first@yahoo.com (Ellie) wrote in message news:<f4d2c585.0311211052.f0a5d83@posting.google.com>... shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) wrote in message I was basing my response on what I thought Brian was asking, "If divorce is inevitable, what is the best time to do it?" There really is no "best" time (preschool, grade school, teen years, college) -- each stage has its own drawbacks. If these are equally available choices, I'd say college is definitely best! I have stayed away from this thread because I don't have personal experience with divorce, but have seen quite a few to know that there are no general rules. It all depends on the situation. One thing that I have observed is that many times the couple may think through the process very carefully and try their best to reduce the impact on their children, only to face a situation which they couldn't have planned for. This usually happens when one or both parents find someone else. All of a sudden their lives take a turn in a way that disrupt all those preplannings. In the cases that I know children have suffered much more because of the new realities in their parents' lives than the fact that they separated - in every way, from priority given to the children, to moving far away from them, to emotional, physical, financial, available time, and everything else that they had thought about and planned for prior to the arrival of new partner. Of course there are also cases where the new partners enrich the children's live's, but I have seen too many sad incidents of step-partner problems (and not because the new people are bad either, it's just the nature of the situation). It's funny you should say that! I just got off the phone with an old dear friend who is beside herself because her mother is in a new relationship. Even though her mom's been widowed for two years now!!! We're not even talking divorce here! My friend is 38 years old with her own family, and it's been quite a long time since she lived at home. And yet, she still feels this way, as if her mom is somehow betraying the memory of her dad. What makes it even more ironic is that her parents had a tumultuous relationship for decades. When she was a teen she discovered divorce papers that were dated but never signed. The date was right around when her mom must've been 3 months pregnant with her! For years I've listened to my friend complain that her parents should never have stayed married for the sake of the kids, that her mom should get a backbone and divorce her father. Her father was an alcoholic, and she got it in her head it was because the marriage was so terrible. And now this! Her father is deceased and her mom free to remarry. My friend had a hard time explaining her reaction - she kept saying, "It's my inner child that's reacting here, and I know it doesn't make any sense for me to be upset about this."

The reason is that there is a long distance between the heart and the head.

I just don't know what to do anymore. I mean I think I've tried to
make things better for her. I just don't get the same effort in
return. I honestly believe we wouldn't be together if it weren't for
our children. I think that is a very unfair weight to put on both of
them. They may not realize it now, but they sure will a few years
from now. I may not be the smartest person in the group, but one
thing I've learned is not to underestimate children. I just feel so
guilty sometimes even thinking about leaving. I love seeing my son
and new baby every day. He's only 3 and a half and I just know this
would confuse the hell out of him.

--Brian

shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) writes:
ellie_first@yahoo.com (Ellie) wrote in message news:<f4d2c585.0311211052.f0a5d83@posting.google.com>... shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny) wrote in message I was basing my response on what I thought Brian was asking, "If divorce is inevitable, what is the best time to do it?" There really is no "best" time (preschool, grade school, teen years, college) -- each stage has its own drawbacks. If these are equally available choices, I'd say college is definitely best! I have stayed away from this thread because I don't have personal experience with divorce, but have seen quite a few to know that there are no general rules. It all depends on the situation. One thing that I have observed is that many times the couple may think through the process very carefully and try their best to reduce the impact on their children, only to face a situation which they couldn't have planned for. This usually happens when one or both parents find someone else. All of a sudden their lives take a turn in a way that disrupt all those preplannings. In the cases that I know children have suffered much more because of the new realities in their parents' lives than the fact that they separated - in every way, from priority given to the children, to moving far away from them, to emotional, physical, financial, available time, and everything else that they had thought about and planned for prior to the arrival of new partner. Of course there are also cases where the new partners enrich the children's live's, but I have seen too many sad incidents of step-partner problems (and not because the new people are bad either, it's just the nature of the situation). It's funny you should say that! I just got off the phone with an old dear friend who is beside herself because her mother is in a new relationship. Even though her mom's been widowed for two years now!!! We're not even talking divorce here! My friend is 38 years old with her own family, and it's been quite a long time since she lived at home. And yet, she still feels this way, as if her mom is somehow betraying the memory of her dad. What makes it even more ironic is that her parents had a tumultuous relationship for decades.

I don't know if it makes it more ironic, but it makes it more
understandable.
When she was a teen she discovered divorce papers that were dated but never signed. The date was right around when her mom must've been 3 months pregnant with her! For years I've listened to my friend complain that her parents should never have stayed married for the sake of the kids, that her mom should get a backbone and divorce her father. Her father was an alcoholic, and she got it in her head it was because the marriage was so terrible. And now this! Her father is deceased and her mom free to remarry. My friend had a hard time explaining her reaction - she kept saying, "It's my inner child that's reacting here, and I know it doesn't make any sense for me to be upset about this."

It makes some sense. Her resentment about the fact that her parents
didn't provide a secure loving center to her family is rising to the
surface.

Brian wrote: I know this is the "marriage" newsgroup and all. Hey, if there were ever a more bitter and angry group of people worse then those found here, it would be them who dwell on all.support.divorce so I don't even bother going there. =) Really, I posed some questions there once and nearly got my head handed to me. I know there must be some divorcees on here and what I'm asking is this. So many people on this group seem to try to steer you away from divorce and I suppose that is justifiable. But for those of you who have gone the route of the big "D" word, were there any regrets? I look at it like this. I work in a place where people threaten to leave all the time. They complain and complain and most of them never go. But those that do, and resurface later, well, not one has ever regretted leaving. Any thoughts? --Brian
Good question with lots of answers:

- I am sorry that my first wife and I could not find a way to coexist
for the children
- I am sorry that we married for the wrong reasons (me: physical
attraction; her: security)
- I am sorry that we hurt each other (me: being domineering in regards
to family decisions; her: cheating on me)
- I am sorry that I haven't been as close to her daughter as I would
like since we divorced
- I am sorry for the financial settlement in the divorce(men do get
screwed in Texas)
- I am glad that she is mostly out of my day to day life
- I am glad that I dated some after we separated and divorced (a wide
variety of women)
- I am glad that I met someone who is more suited to me personality
wise and values wise
- I am glad my son and my new wife get along (though there has been
disagreements)
- I am glad I get along with my stepkids (though there has been moments)
- I am glad that I got off the "credit go-round" with my first wife (my
wife is able to safe money from our salaries - something new for me)
- I am glad my wife chose me (as well as me choosing her)not caring
whether I was a good provider or not
- I am glad my wife and I can look forward to a future together.


Mostly I feel good about the divorce, I guess.

I have a friend who just went through a divorce in Seattle.. he told me that
his two children HAD to each have their own room..( a boy and a girl)..that
it was required by state law.. that is all I know

I have heard it in other cases too..but dont have personal experience with
it directly.


Kass
"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:__cvb.194982$mZ5.1450827@attbi_s54... "Whisper" <whisperishere@bctonline.com> writes: Also some states require each child to have his/her own bedroom.. so
with two kids you would HAVE to have a 3 bedroom place Can this really be true? Which states? And under what circumstances? That seems totally bizarre!