I'm curious what you guys think about this. I posted this in the other group,
but would appreciate your feedback. Tell me if I'm missing the boat, or
correct me if am wrong...

Bill wrote: BTW, did you ever notice how hard it is to find water for your car radiator
in a gas station these days? You want to know why? This one is right up
your alley, Rog. You're not going to like the answer.... OK, since nobody guessed it: It is due to the gas station owner's fear of an "innocent victim" lawsuit against them, over a customer (possibly) getting burned by hot water when
they remove their radiator cap. You know, the same thing is true for the summer youth camps, over the past
four decades. Many, if not most of them, have gone out of business, cause they can't afford the liability insurance if Johnny stubs his toe and his parents sue. After all, it wasn't Johnny's fault!! It was your fault, you irresponsible camp owner! You should have removed ALL rocks and trees so my Johnny couldn't trip! Don't work it out, just sue it out, and get yours! Get it while you can, while the gettin's good. The legal profession will help you in your quest. Who cares about the rest of the world? Not too many, anymore. Sad, really sad. I really feel sorry for our kids.

And this is NOT social progress - I wish some would take off their blinders,
and see the reality of it. How can I change my world view with stuff like
this going on today? The only way would be to just look the other way.....

/rant

Bill wrote: I'm curious what you guys think about this. I posted this in the other group, but would appreciate your feedback. Tell me if I'm missing the boat, or correct me if am wrong... Bill wrote: BTW, did you ever notice how hard it is to find water for your car radiator in a gas station these days? You want to know why? This one is right up your alley, Rog. You're not going to like the answer.... OK, since nobody guessed it: It is due to the gas station owner's fear of an "innocent victim" lawsuit against them, over a customer (possibly) getting burned by hot water when they remove their radiator cap.

But I *can* put water in my radiator in a petrol station. In fact, if it's
an increasingly hard-to-find service station (someone manning the pumps
rather than me having to get out of the car to do it myself) they'll do even
it for me.

Mind you, our cars don't usually need to have their radiators topped up
between oil-change services anyway, even though one of them is 12 years old.

So I can't help you with this, Bill. lol

Tai

What a load of crap. Pretty much every gas station I go to has air
and water, fre for customers, or 50 cents for non customers (even
though if you go in and ask for a token, tehy always give you one.

Someone has been blowing smoke up Bill's gullible *** again.

On Sun, 03 Aug 2003 22:32:05 GMT, "Bill" <nowhere@earthlink.net>
wrote:
I'm curious what you guys think about this. I posted this in the other group,but would appreciate your feedback. Tell me if I'm missing the boat, orcorrect me if am wrong...Bill wrote: BTW, did you ever notice how hard it is to find water for your car radiatorin a gas station these days? You want to know why? This one is right upyour alley, Rog. You're not going to like the answer.... OK, since nobody guessed it: It is due to the gas station owner's fear of an "innocent victim" lawsuit against them, over a customer (possibly) getting burned by hot water whenthey remove their radiator cap. You know, the same thing is true for the summer youth camps, over the pastfour decades. Many, if not most of them, have gone out of business, cause they can't afford the liability insurance if Johnny stubs his toe and his parents sue. After all, it wasn't Johnny's fault!! It was your fault, you irresponsible camp owner! You should have removed ALL rocks and trees so my Johnny couldn't trip! Don't work it out, just sue it out, and get yours! Get it while you can, while the gettin's good. The legal profession will help you in your quest. Who cares about the rest of the world? Not too many, anymore. Sad, really sad. I really feel sorry for our kids.And this is NOT social progress - I wish some would take off their blinders,and see the reality of it. How can I change my world view with stuff likethis going on today? The only way would be to just look the other way...../rant

"Bill" <nowhere@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:F3gXa.130821$Io.11138779@newsread2.prod.itd.e arthlink.net... And this is NOT social progress - I wish some would take off their
blinders, and see the reality of it. How can I change my world view with stuff
like this going on today? The only way would be to just look the other
way.....

I disagree with that last sentence. Looking the other way won't do it - but
paying more attention the GOOD changes would make a difference. Your
problem seems to be that you only focus on the negative, and don't even see
the positives - which, as people keep pointing out, do exist. You seem to
feel that the negatives in the world outweigh all the positives - but that
could be because that is where your attention lies. Others seem to feel
that the positives outweigh the negatives...

fairly_happy wrote: "Bill" <nowhere@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:F3gXa.130821$Io.11138779@newsread2.prod.itd.e arthlink.net... And this is NOT social progress - I wish some would take off their blinders, and see the reality of it. How can I change my world view with stuff like this going on today? The only way would be to just look the other way..... I disagree with that last sentence. Looking the other way won't do it - but paying more attention the GOOD changes would make a difference. Your problem seems to be that you only focus on the negative, and don't even see the positives - which, as people keep pointing out, do exist. You seem to feel that the negatives in the world outweigh all the positives - but that could be because that is where your attention lies. Others seem to feel that the positives outweigh the negatives...

But SB, I'm NOT talking about technological advances. I'm talking about
*societal* changes, most for the worse - well, ok, with two notable exceptions:
there is much more awareness of, and lack of tolerance for, discrimination and
abuse, nowadays. And THAT part is great.

As for the two parent family structure, well, we've already been down that
path... And suing, instead of working things out... And slipping in
education... A HS diploma doesn't mean what it used to, in many, many cases
that I have seen and read about. Of course, I've spent a fair chunk of my time
in some heavily Hispanic communities, where education still is such a tough
sell. (If you've "been there", you know what I am talking about).

If THAT isn't fundamentally important, in fact, the most important stuff, I
don't know what is. And in those areas, we are slipping badly.

"Bill" <nowhere@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:i7jXa.131036$Io.11153955@newsread2.prod.itd.e arthlink.net... fairly_happy wrote: "Bill" <nowhere@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:F3gXa.130821$Io.11138779@newsread2.prod.itd.e arthlink.net... I disagree with that last sentence. Looking the other way won't do it -
but paying more attention the GOOD changes would make a difference. Your problem seems to be that you only focus on the negative, and don't even
see the positives - which, as people keep pointing out, do exist. You seem
to feel that the negatives in the world outweigh all the positives - but
that could be because that is where your attention lies. Others seem to feel that the positives outweigh the negatives... But SB, I'm NOT talking about technological advances.

I'm not talking about technological advances either.

I'm talking about *societal* changes, most for the worse - well, ok, with two notable
exceptions: there is much more awareness of, and lack of tolerance for, discrimination
and abuse, nowadays. And THAT part is great.

IMHO, those two outweigh all the other things that you complain about.
As for the two parent family structure, well, we've already been down that path...

You know all those two parent families back in the 50s? A lot of them
shouldn't have been two parent families. All those families where abuse was
hushed up? They really should have divorced. For a lot of families,
staying together was bad. I believe Inky explained that one to you.

Well, if you consider that some of those families back then really should
have broken up, then the increase in divorce rates doesn't seem quite as
bad. Maybe the divorce rate should have been higher all along....certainly
abused spouses and children should have been able to get out.
And suing, instead of working things out...

This one is mixed, to me - not clearly bad the way it is to you. Yes, there
are frivolous lawsuits. On the other hand, folks have more opportunity for
legal redress when mistreated or cheated nowadays. I'd call it about a
wash.

And slipping in education... A HS diploma doesn't mean what it used to, in many, many
cases that I have seen and read about. Of course, I've spent a fair chunk of my
time in some heavily Hispanic communities, where education still is such a
tough sell. (If you've "been there", you know what I am talking about).

I wonder if you'd feel the same if you had spent more time in Asian
communities?
If THAT isn't fundamentally important, in fact, the most important stuff,
I don't know what is. And in those areas, we are slipping badly.

Actually, I think the discrimination and abuse stuff is the most important.

YMMV

fairly_happy wrote: "Bill" <nowhere@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:i7jXa.131036$Io.11153955@newsread2.prod.itd.e arthlink.net... fairly_happy wrote: "Bill" <nowhere@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:F3gXa.130821$Io.11138779@newsread2.prod.itd.e arthlink.net... I disagree with that last sentence. Looking the other way won't do it -
but paying more attention the GOOD changes would make a difference. Your problem seems to be that you only focus on the negative, and don't even see the positives - which, as people keep pointing out, do exist. You seem to feel that the negatives in the world outweigh all the positives - but that could be because that is where your attention lies. Others seem to feel that the positives outweigh the negatives... But SB, I'm NOT talking about technological advances. I'm not talking about technological advances either. I'm talking about *societal* changes, most for the worse - well, ok, with two notable
exceptions: there is much more awareness of, and lack of tolerance for, discrimination
and abuse, nowadays. And THAT part is great. IMHO, those two outweigh all the other things that you complain about. As for the two parent family structure, well, we've already been down that path... You know all those two parent families back in the 50s? A lot of them shouldn't have been two parent families. All those families where abuse was hushed up? They really should have divorced. For a lot of families, staying together was bad. I believe Inky explained that one to you. Well, if you consider that some of those families back then really should have broken up, then the increase in divorce rates doesn't seem quite as bad. Maybe the divorce rate should have been higher all along....certainly abused spouses and children should have been able to get out. And suing, instead of working things out... This one is mixed, to me - not clearly bad the way it is to you. Yes, there are frivolous lawsuits. On the other hand, folks have more opportunity for legal redress when mistreated or cheated nowadays. I'd call it about a wash. And slipping in education... A HS diploma doesn't mean what it used to, in many, many
cases that I have seen and read about. Of course, I've spent a fair chunk of my
time in some heavily Hispanic communities, where education still is such a tough sell. (If you've "been there", you know what I am talking about). I wonder if you'd feel the same if you had spent more time in Asian communities? If THAT isn't fundamentally important, in fact, the most important stuff, I don't know what is. And in those areas, we are slipping badly. Actually, I think the discrimination and abuse stuff is the most important. YMMV

OK, that's probably a little more balanced, SB. You're probably right in much
of this, as viewed in a more balanced perspective. (Just kick me once in
awhile, when I miss some of this, cause I often seem to).

So - thanks for pointing it all out again, SB. I really think I need this
sometimes. Actually, I know I need it, lest I go off the deep end... Hmmm.
Maybe I already have, to some extent...

"Bill" <nowhere@earthlink.net> writes:
Doug Anderson wrote:
My neck of the woods is thick with summer youth camps (or at any rate, there are so many, so that one can always find a place even with short notice). In other words, supply meets demand. So I see no evidence that camps are going out of business at all, and if they are, I suspect it is because there are enough of them. You ought to talk with some of the natives in Maine. I can tell you for a fact that many of the summer camps have folded. If you don't believe that, then I believe you're not looking at this broadly enough - in the context of the last FOUR decades of change. I went back looking for a few, and they're not there anymore. I didn't say there weren't any summer camps. Please don't misquote me, Doug. Your idea of "thick with summer camps", and mine, might very well be different.

If there are enough summer camps so that all the campers who want one can
find one (and I think there are, what with kids of my own at that age now),
then I expect the ones that folded did so for basic economic reasons like
supply and demand.

I said what I meant by "thick with them." If there were more, some
would have to close, since there wouldn't be enough campers to make
them all profitable.

Doug

Herr Taurus wrote: On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 02:00:46 GMT, "Bill" <nowhere@earthlink.net> wrote: As for the two parent family structure, well, we've already been down that path... And suing, instead of working things out... And slipping in education... A HS diploma doesn't mean what it used to, in many, many
cases that I have seen and read about. Of course, I've spent a fair chunk of my
time in some heavily Hispanic communities, where education still is such a tough sell. (If you've "been there", you know what I am talking about). If THAT isn't fundamentally important, in fact, the most important stuff, I don't know what is. And in those areas, we are slipping badly. Compared to WHEN?

To a few decades ago - not compared to the Middle Ages. :-)
Most schools now have separate classrooms for each grade...rather than all the grades in one room. I think that's a big advancement...although maybe not necessary. I'm still puzzled as to why we went to ball-point pens. Took a lot of the fun out of going to school.

Spilling that fountain pen ink on your shirts really sucked! And boy did you
get it when you got home, if you did. LOL!

>and drive 50 miles with my buddies on a weekendto get White Castle's at 9¢ each!

Hmmmm. White Castles.

Tracey

"Bill" <nowhere@earthlink.net> writes:
You used to be able to get FREE state maps too. (For those of ya old enough to remember).

Yeah. They don't give them out anymore because they are afraid of
getting sued if someone gets lost (no, no, it has nothing to do with
the fact that cars are more reliable and hence selling gas has become
a business which competes on price instead of service)

I know this because someone I know who's father's cousin worked in a service
station told me so.
And an attendant would come out, and check the WATER and the OIL and the tire pressure for ya. And clean your windshield. Can you believe it? It was true.....

I blame the lawyers.

Doug Anderson wrote: "Bill" <nowhere@earthlink.net> writes: And an attendant would come out, and check the WATER and the OIL and the tire pressure for ya. And clean your windshield. Can you believe it? It was true..... I blame the lawyers.

You should. Have you seen how many more attorneys there are today, than a few
decades ago? Just look at your yellow pages in your phone book. For a city,
the Attorney section is NOW about an inch thick - THESE DAYS.

Gee, I wonder what that indicates? Could it be that our current "advanced"
society just "sues it out, rather than works it out"? Nah, can't be. Must
be the drugs I'm on.....It sure as hell can't be associated with a decline in
personal responsibility, now can it?

You had White Castles all the way north to MN???

Tracey wrote: and drive 50 miles with my buddies on a weekendto get White Castle's at 9¢ each! Hmmmm. White Castles. Tracey

Doug Anderson wrote: "Bill" <nowhere@earthlink.net> writes: You used to be able to get FREE state maps too. (For those of ya old enough
to remember). Yeah. They don't give them out anymore because they are afraid of getting sued if someone gets lost (no, no, it has nothing to do with the fact that cars are more reliable and hence selling gas has become a business which competes on price instead of service)

So you acknowledge we have LESS service these days. Oh, isn't that progress!

"Bill" <nowhere@earthlink.net> writes:
Doug Anderson wrote: "Bill" <nowhere@earthlink.net> writes: You used to be able to get FREE state maps too. (For those of ya old enough to remember). Yeah. They don't give them out anymore because they are afraid of getting sued if someone gets lost (no, no, it has nothing to do with the fact that cars are more reliable and hence selling gas has become a business which competes on price instead of service) So you acknowledge we have LESS service these days. Oh, isn't that progress!

Full service gas stations still exist. People tend to patronize (in
most of the US) self-service stations because they are cheaper and
because moden cars _need_ less service. You get what you pay for.
It's got nothing to do with litigation costs.

>You had White Castles all the way north to MN???

Actually, yes. But, even if they *didn't* have White
Castles in MN, I've lived in 7 different states, 2
other countries, and spent significant amounts of
time in probably 20 other states so I can relate to
a lot of different 'local' delicacies.

Tracey

Doug Anderson wrote: "Bill" <nowhere@earthlink.net> writes: Doug Anderson wrote: "Bill" <nowhere@earthlink.net> writes:> And an attendant would come out, and check the WATER and the OIL> and the tire pressure for ya. And clean your windshield. Can you
believe> it? It was true..... I blame the lawyers. You should. Have you seen how many more attorneys there are today, than a
few decades ago? Just look at your yellow pages in your phone book. For a
city, the Attorney section is NOW about an inch thick - THESE DAYS. Gee, I wonder what that indicates? Could it be that our current "advanced" society just "sues it out, rather than works it out"? Nah, can't be.
Must be the drugs I'm on.....It sure as hell can't be associated with a decline
in personal responsibility, now can it? Is this your supposed "dry sense of humor" or are you irony impaired today? Surely even you don't blame the lawyers for the fact that gas stations don't clean your windshield anymore.

No, I don't blame them for that. (On that we can agree).
(Which isn't even true. I still patronize a couple of gas stations that _do_ clean my windshield, but you can't get this at "self-service" and not necessarily at "mini-serve." You pay more for the privilege of being waited on, which makes sense.)

Bill <nowhere@earthlink.net> wrote:
Don't work it out, just sue it out, and get yours! Get it while you can, while the gettin's good. The legal profession will help you in your quest.

How are you doing Bill? Sometimes when you start perseverating about
lawyers and responsibility and so on, it's not a good sign for your
emotional health.

>Plus I playing around with the meds.....self titrating,you might say.

Honestly, Bill? Bad move, IMO.

Tracey

Tracey wrote: Plus I playing around with the meds.....self titrating,you might say. Honestly, Bill? Bad move, IMO. Tracey

Honestly, yes. Intelligent move, probably not. But has that ever stopped
me? Not often enough, I guess. But I'll reconsider... (This is an ongoing
war between me and this in-the-head meds crap). I really want to be off of
it....

>I really want to be off of it....

I understand that, but, Bill, you're still right in the
middle of the stuff that led to you needing them. That's
NOT the time to wean yourself off of it (and definitely
not without your doctor's and/or counselor's approval/
input.) And there's been a recent study that says the
recurrence of depressive episodes are much greater when
the ADs are only taken for short periods of time (6
months or shorter).

Tracey

Tai wrote: Bill wrote: Plus I playing around with the meds.....self titrating, you might say. I'll be damned if I'm gonna be a slave to this. Grrrrr. :-) or (-: depending on the day of the week Given what you've said about what's currently happening in your life this sounds like the worst possible time to try to wean yourself off your medication, Bill! You've seemed so much more mellow lately, you know. Talk to your doctor. Please. Tai

Trust me, I do talk to her when I see her. But if you're saying that I've been
so much more mellow lately, then that's good, and I can stay on this lower
dose.

I thought Emma was implying that the last few days here were bad. Now I'm
really confused. If there hasn't been a noticeable change over the few days,
then I'm ok. BTW - I discuss this fully with the doc when I see her.

Tai wrote: Bill wrote: Plus I playing around with the meds.....self titrating, you might say. I'll be damned if I'm gonna be a slave to this. Grrrrr. :-) or (-: depending on the day of the week Given what you've said about what's currently happening in your life this sounds like the worst possible time to try to wean yourself off your medication, Bill!

I'm trying to see who's stronger - me or the meds. You know, the "mind over
matter" conquers all? Or should - at least for this stuff. But obviously
not for the real, physical, bonafide, *diseases*. I swear I'm my own worst
enemy sometimes....

>I'm trying to see who's stronger - me or the meds. You know, the "mind overmatter" conquers all? Or should - at least for this stuff. Butobviouslynot for the real, physical, bonafide, *diseases*. I swear I'm my ownworstenemy sometimes....

Yes, you are. :-) How about you give yourself a break?

Sheila

Tai wrote: Bill wrote: I thought Emma was implying that the last few days here were bad. Now I'm really confused. If there hasn't been a noticeable change over the few days, then I'm ok. BTW - I discuss this fully with the doc when I see her. No, I meant up you've seemed more mellow up until the last few days. You're not sounding as angry as you used to, though, even though you're galloping your hobby horse around again. ;) Tai

Well, the increased dose tends to do that. And I don't like being so drugged
out. Let's just see how it goes now..

WhansaMi wrote: I'm trying to see who's stronger - me or the meds. You know, the "mind
over matter" conquers all? Or should - at least for this stuff. But
obviously not for the real, physical, bonafide, *diseases*. I swear I'm my own worst enemy sometimes.... Yes, you are. :-) How about you give yourself a break? Sheila

One has to deserve it first....

>> Yes, you are. :-) How about you give yourself a break? SheilaOne has to deserve it first....

Bill, what have you done that is so bad that you don't deserve a break?
Really?

Sheila

WhansaMi wrote: Yes, you are. :-) How about you give yourself a break? Sheila One has to deserve it first.... Bill, what have you done that is so bad that you don't deserve a break? Really? Sheila

I don't know. It's probably that residual ACOA guilt bull**** sneaking out
again..

>I don't know. It's probably that residual ACOA guilt bull**** sneaking outagain..

As we've said in some of these threads recently, it is so hard to tease apart
the environmental/psychological/biological components of these problems, isn't
it?

Bill, one of the things that happened with my dad after his staph infection was
that he became addicted to opiates. He was given morphine, in the doses that
they usually give terminally ill cancer patients, because the nerve pain was so
bad. He continued getting it in rehab, and, since his wife was a nurse, she
managed to work it so that there were ALWAYS plenty of opiates in the house.
This went on for two years after he came out of orthopedic rehab, until his
wife died, and we discovered what he was taking, and in what dosages. We sent
him to the hospital for a detox (his health precluded any non-hospitalized
detox).

OTOH, I've taken anti-depressants. At one point, they probably saved my life.
I was stubborn (like you!) and insisted that, doggonit, I was going to work
through this the old-fashioned way.... and after nearly three years in therapy,
I was coping exceptionally well with my depression, but I was still depressed.
I finally agreed to take the medication my therapist had been recommending for
over two years. Since that time, I've gone back on the anti-depressants
periodically. At times I have been able to identify the trigger of the
depression (hormonal therapy to treat some gynecological problems), and other
times I just found myself sinking into the black hole without understanding
why.

So, you see.... I've seen prescription drug abuse up close and personal (my
dad) and I've seen the therapeutic benefit of psychotropics (my depression).

So, let me ask you some questions: Do you "crave" your medication? Do you
obsess that you *won't* be able to have access to your medication? Are you
willing to forego time with your family, money, or recreational activities to
get to the medication? If your answer to these questions is "no" (and I
suspect it is ;-)) you aren't misusing drugs, or becoming drug dependent.

What is your fear, exactly? What makes the taking of the meds so onerous for
you? Can you specifically pinpoint the concern?

Sheila

Back to the title of this thread.

Yes.

Bill <nowhere@earthlink.net> wrote:
What I meant was - I can't just "up and quit" taking them - so to me, that's an addiction. And I'm not just talking about the withdrawal symptoms - I mean the long term effects too.

Well, if you are like the character in Alice in Wonderland, and can
define words to mean whatever you want them to mean, yes. Otherwise no
- that's not what addiction is. You need withdrawal, cravings, and
tolerance. Just withdrawal doesn't qualify.

Emma Anne wrote: Bill <nowhere@earthlink.net> wrote: What I meant was - I can't just "up and quit" taking them - so to me, that's an addiction. And I'm not just talking about the withdrawal symptoms - I mean the long term effects too. Well, if you are like the character in Alice in Wonderland, and can define words to mean whatever you want them to mean, yes. Otherwise no - that's not what addiction is. You need withdrawal, cravings, and tolerance. Just withdrawal doesn't qualify.

I wasn't trying to be catty. I thought that was an addiction. Doesn't
addiction simply mean "needing them", or there will be some dire consequences?

I guess you're looking at it from a more medical standpoint - meaning
withdrawal symptoms, like shaking, or seizures, and cravings for not having it,
etc - like heroin, I guess. So I guess my view of the word "addiction" was
less restrictive - but maybe I'm using the work inappropriately, then, as I
guess you've said.

Alice in Wonderland, huh? Gee, thanks.... :-)

Bill <nowhere@earthlink.net> wrote:
Emma Anne wrote: Bill <nowhere@earthlink.net> wrote: What I meant was - I can't just "up and quit" taking them - so to me, that's an addiction. And I'm not just talking about the withdrawal symptoms - I mean the long term effects too. Well, if you are like the character in Alice in Wonderland, and can define words to mean whatever you want them to mean, yes. Otherwise no - that's not what addiction is. You need withdrawal, cravings, and tolerance. Just withdrawal doesn't qualify. I wasn't trying to be catty. I thought that was an addiction. Doesn't addiction simply mean "needing them", or there will be some dire consequences?

No, that's dependence. You need air, too, after all.
I guess you're looking at it from a more medical standpoint - meaning withdrawal symptoms, like shaking, or seizures, and cravings for not having it, etc - like heroin, I guess. So I guess my view of the word "addiction" was less restrictive - but maybe I'm using the work inappropriately, then, as I guess you've said.

I think the distinction is important. I have been addicted (only to
cigarettes, luckily) and I never want that to happen to me again.
Alice in Wonderland, huh? Gee, thanks.... :-)

It's a really good book, though! :-)