It is hard, even impossible to sum up 15 years of marriage in a few dozen
lines. But I have reached a point where I need some new ideas, some creative
input from outside. I have hope to find it here. Thanks for bearing with me
through this somewhat lengthy message.



We are married for 15 years and have three children aged 4, 9 and 12. I won'
t even try to sum up what our marriage has been like over time. It has
basically been as it is now, but the problems were lighter, newer and easier
to put up with. To describe today's situation from my point of view:



My wife Lidia is depressive and these depressions come in waves (about 20
per year). They last anything between 2 and up to 10 days. They do not show
as sad, silent, unmotivated behaviour but rather as extremely aggressive
periods of time. These periods are unpredictable to me. We are currently in
such a period again, so I'll give one or two examples from the last days:



I had been jogging yesterday (all was fine when I left), and upon coming
back an hour later I told Lidia about having met two buddies and having run
together, two of the usual rounds around the block, rather slowly, in 26
minutes each. Now that made her mad furious and for a long while she would
not stop shouting about how silly men are to check their watch while
running, to strive for performance, that she did not care and had not asked
what time we had taken and what idiots we men all are. This went on for a
long while and could not be stopped by anything I replied quite calmly. In
the end I gave up, fell completely silent and let her vent. When she finally
finished, she went, still mad, to bed.



Today, since I am on vacation and Lidia not yet, I cleaned the house and
cooked meal (like I often do, since I have a more "family-friendly" working
schedule). She came in at noon, meal was on the table, children around, she
goes off again. Error this time: I am wearing the wrong shirt: How can I
dare to wear a shirt I only bought 6 weeks ago? What if I had stained it?
Since she does the washing, do I take her for a complete idiot to give her
additional work? Then silence, no further word during the whole meal, not to
me nor the children. I tried to talk to the children somewhat, but like so
often the atmosphere was rather tense. After half an hour she left for work
again, slamming the door behind her. Now as I write this, she's back, still
speechless.



Important to know: Why haven't I left since long? Because 20 times 2 to 10
days makes less than one third of the year; all the rest Lidia is a
relatively caring wife and mother and life works pretty well together. But I
am wearing out of constantly having to watch this minefield, as are the
children, who of course run into the same situation many times a month. I
feel more and more empty and powerless, because I can see no obvious
solution. Counselling she strictly refuses, shouting back and using the same
abusive language dramatically worsens and lengthens the situation (and
horrifies the children); best bet is to endure the abuse calmly (or leave
the room and not let it touch you emotionally too much, which is difficult,
but people learn) and generally wait for better times.



But again, I am wearing out and getting close to my emotional limits. What
ideas, suggestions, help do any of you see?



Mike

Sounds familiar, except for the "all men" angle. New shirt etc.

Are you sure they are depressions and not

1) PMS (rages around the period in females)
2) just being a scandalous person

Myself, I have to say that I have some coping mechanisms and I no
longer give a **** about my wife's rages. Nothing I can do about them,
and therefore I am not too bothered. I am generally feeling better
lately and blow off anything bad without being too upset. Okay, maybe
I am bothered, but it could be worse. So I more or less ignore the bad
times, and enjoy the good times.

Also, contrary to the myth, women can control themselevs even when
pmsing or whatever. You do not have to take it nicely, it is not your
job description. You can tell her firmly that you won't listen to her
crap, and follow up on that. And you may see some amazing
effect. Since the time I adopted this attitude, I am targeted to a
much lesser extent.

i

In article <3f201eea$1_1@news.vo.lu>, Mike Herbert wrote: It is hard, even impossible to sum up 15 years of marriage in a few dozen lines. But I have reached a point where I need some new ideas, some creative input from outside. I have hope to find it here. Thanks for bearing with me through this somewhat lengthy message. We are married for 15 years and have three children aged 4, 9 and 12. I won' t even try to sum up what our marriage has been like over time. It has basically been as it is now, but the problems were lighter, newer and easier to put up with. To describe today's situation from my point of view: My wife Lidia is depressive and these depressions come in waves (about 20 per year). They last anything between 2 and up to 10 days. They do not show as sad, silent, unmotivated behaviour but rather as extremely aggressive periods of time. These periods are unpredictable to me. We are currently in such a period again, so I'll give one or two examples from the last days: I had been jogging yesterday (all was fine when I left), and upon coming back an hour later I told Lidia about having met two buddies and having run together, two of the usual rounds around the block, rather slowly, in 26 minutes each. Now that made her mad furious and for a long while she would not stop shouting about how silly men are to check their watch while running, to strive for performance, that she did not care and had not asked what time we had taken and what idiots we men all are. This went on for a long while and could not be stopped by anything I replied quite calmly. In the end I gave up, fell completely silent and let her vent. When she finally finished, she went, still mad, to bed. Today, since I am on vacation and Lidia not yet, I cleaned the house and cooked meal (like I often do, since I have a more "family-friendly" working schedule). She came in at noon, meal was on the table, children around, she goes off again. Error this time: I am wearing the wrong shirt: How can I dare to wear a shirt I only bought 6 weeks ago? What if I had stained it? Since she does the washing, do I take her for a complete idiot to give her additional work? Then silence, no further word during the whole meal, not to me nor the children. I tried to talk to the children somewhat, but like so often the atmosphere was rather tense. After half an hour she left for work again, slamming the door behind her. Now as I write this, she's back, still speechless. Important to know: Why haven't I left since long? Because 20 times 2 to 10 days makes less than one third of the year; all the rest Lidia is a relatively caring wife and mother and life works pretty well together. But I am wearing out of constantly having to watch this minefield, as are the children, who of course run into the same situation many times a month. I feel more and more empty and powerless, because I can see no obvious solution. Counselling she strictly refuses, shouting back and using the same abusive language dramatically worsens and lengthens the situation (and horrifies the children); best bet is to endure the abuse calmly (or leave the room and not let it touch you emotionally too much, which is difficult, but people learn) and generally wait for better times. But again, I am wearing out and getting close to my emotional limits. What ideas, suggestions, help do any of you see? Mike

Empress Otku writes:
On 24 Jul 2003 18:38:21 GMT, Ignoramus18261 <ignoramus18261@NOSPAM.18261.invalid> wrote:and what if his wife did not want to go to therapy? Christ on a bicycle, Igor, 125 lines or so for this? You need to snip. And I'm not talking about your balls. OK, back on topic. If his wife refuses help of any kind, then he has to protect the kids. There are other possibilities than depression, by the way. PMD is a real possibility, and anti-depressants can help. Or, if she's always been a rager, maybe she's acting out the stress of working and having three kids; it's probably what she learned growing up. Whatever it is, it's an abusive situation for the kids, and the only one who can save them is their dad. If he fails to do that, he and they will reap the negative results for years to come.

I agree with this completely.

If his wife wants to go to therapy, great. If not, he has to act to
protect himself and the children. (And if the wife isn't willing to
get help, I think helping her should come lower on the priority list
than the children and himself).

Ignoramus, Doug, Tracey and Empress, thanks for your feedback. It is really
appreciated. I'll try to answer in this common post, in order not to split
up the thread into many particles.

First off, this is not PMS. It happens randomly and I have tried to find
anything predictable in it (typical weekdays, moon phase, biorythm), all to
no avail. Her doctor, who happens to be a friend of mine, says it is
depression. She has been on Effexor for a few months and that improved
things a lot. But she no longer wants to take these drugs because of health
considerations.
I have some coping mechanisms and I no longer give a **** about my wife's
rages. Nothing I can do about them, and therefore I am not too bothered.

That is what I am trying to do. Just forget it, tell myself it is just
another bad day, such is fate. Life goes on, things will improve again. Big
BUT: We are all humans, and while I have hardened a lot emotionally, I
cannot get to the point where it leaves me completely untouched. These
conflicts always remain in my thoughts for hours and definitely succeed in
preventing a peaceful rest at night. Maybe I haven't found the right
technique just yet :-)
You can tell her firmly that you won't listen to her crap, and follow up
on that.

If there wasn't this endless loss of communications associated with each
conflict, this might work. But she just stops talking/answering for days.
Nothing in the world will get her to talk until the crisis all of a sudden
ends by itself.
If we are going to continue to make this life work for our family we need
to work on how to deal with each other in a better way. I'm making an
appointment for counseling, and I hope that in the interests of our family,
if for no other, you'll come with me.

You write very thoughtful stuff here, Doug, and I agree completely. I have
actually asked her (more or less in your words even) to counsel together,
but during the crisis there is no way she'd say yes ("I don't have a
problem; YOU have a problem"), and in her fine periods she finds it too
embarrassing to go. Still I think that this might be the proper way to deal
with the problem, and that it needs to be considered further and more
seriously.
I suggest counseling for *you*.

Well, I am indeed getting close to counseling; in fact this post might is a
first step for some feedback.
Not on how to fix the problems because this doesn't sound like anything
you can fix on your own but to figure out why you've stayed in this
situation all of these years

Tracey, I've stayed in the situation because of several reasons.

First off, I still love that woman and we come along really well in those
two thirds of the time. She looks good, and is really a kind person and good
mother then. It may sound hard to believe after what I have told, but that
is how things are indeed.

Then, the children would not want us split. How often have I heard during
such a crisis with a fearful voice and tears in their eyes: "You are not
going to divorce, are you?". As a general feeling they do love their mother;
and they have got used to her depressions as well and are less and less
touched by her behaviour in those times.

Separate or endure? It is a simple mathematical question of where more
suffering is involved :-(

Mike

"Mike Herbert" <mike70002@hotmail.com> writes:
Ignoramus, Doug, Tracey and Empress, thanks for your feedback. It is really appreciated. I'll try to answer in this common post, in order not to split up the thread into many particles. First off, this is not PMS. It happens randomly and I have tried to find anything predictable in it (typical weekdays, moon phase, biorythm), all to no avail. Her doctor, who happens to be a friend of mine, says it is depression. She has been on Effexor for a few months and that improved things a lot. But she no longer wants to take these drugs because of health considerations. I have some coping mechanisms and I no longer give a **** about my wife's rages. Nothing I can do about them, and therefore I am not too bothered. That is what I am trying to do. Just forget it, tell myself it is just another bad day, such is fate. Life goes on, things will improve again. Big BUT: We are all humans, and while I have hardened a lot emotionally, I cannot get to the point where it leaves me completely untouched. These conflicts always remain in my thoughts for hours and definitely succeed in preventing a peaceful rest at night. Maybe I haven't found the right technique just yet :-)

This would seem like better advice to me except for two things.
1) I couldn't follow such advice successfully and live the kind of
life I want to live.
2) The effect of this kind of rage on the children seems potentially
very negative. I'm not necessarily talking about their behavior now,
but the kind of demons from their childhood they'll have to face as
adults.
You can tell her firmly that you won't listen to her crap, and follow up on that. If there wasn't this endless loss of communications associated with each conflict, this might work. But she just stops talking/answering for days. Nothing in the world will get her to talk until the crisis all of a sudden ends by itself. If we are going to continue to make this life work for our family we need to work on how to deal with each other in a better way. I'm making an appointment for counseling, and I hope that in the interests of our family, if for no other, you'll come with me. You write very thoughtful stuff here, Doug, and I agree completely. I have actually asked her (more or less in your words even) to counsel together, but during the crisis there is no way she'd say yes ("I don't have a problem; YOU have a problem"), and in her fine periods she finds it too embarrassing to go.

It sound like, in her good periods, you are reasonably happy
together. If she realizes that your family is in danger (again, while
discussing this during her good period) maybe she can get over her
embarassment. Embarassment is a pretty bad reason not to treat what
sounds like a very serious problem - I don't necessarily make the
recommendation that you accuse her of this, but it seems like grossly
negligent behavior on her part to avoid seeking improvement out of
embarassment.
Still I think that this might be the proper way to deal with the problem, and that it needs to be considered further and more seriously. I suggest counseling for *you*. Well, I am indeed getting close to counseling; in fact this post might is a first step for some feedback. Not on how to fix the problems because this doesn't sound like anything you can fix on your own but to figure out why you've stayed in this situation all of these years Tracey, I've stayed in the situation because of several reasons. First off, I still love that woman and we come along really well in those two thirds of the time. She looks good, and is really a kind person and good mother then. It may sound hard to believe after what I have told, but that is how things are indeed. Then, the children would not want us split. How often have I heard during such a crisis with a fearful voice and tears in their eyes: "You are not going to divorce, are you?". As a general feeling they do love their mother; and they have got used to her depressions as well and are less and less touched by her behaviour in those times. Separate or endure? It is a simple mathematical question of where more suffering is involved :-(

Simple question to ask anyway; not so simple to answer. I'd find the
sort of life you describe unendurable, but that's me. I'd also
consider it my responsibility to protect my children from this. An
abusive rageful parent 1/3 of the time may be something they can get
used to, but I believe it is unhealthy.

This may not be sensible, but consider printing this entire thread and
letting your wife read it (sometime when she is "normal.")

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 22:23:56 +0200, "Mike Herbert"
<mike70002@hotmail.com> wrote:

[...]First off, this is not PMS. It happens randomly and I have tried to findanything predictable in it (typical weekdays, moon phase, biorythm), all tono avail. Her doctor, who happens to be a friend of mine, says it isdepression. She has been on Effexor for a few months and that improvedthings a lot. But she no longer wants to take these drugs because of healthconsiderations.

She will have to be very careful with Effexor, it is one of the worst
in terms of discontinuation; look up antidepressant discontinuation on
google.

[...]Well, I am indeed getting close to counseling; in fact this post might is afirst step for some feedback.

It's normal to freeze up emotionally in anxious situations, but denial
will just make things worse - get moving, get some names from people
you trust and find a family therapist.

[...]First off, I still love that woman and we come along really well in thosetwo thirds of the time. She looks good, and is really a kind person and goodmother then. It may sound hard to believe after what I have told, but thatis how things are indeed.

In that case, you must talk to her during her good times. She has to
realize and admit that it's a serious problem which is damaging your
family; your marriage, you and your kids, as well as her own life.

[...]Then, the children would not want us split. How often have I heard duringsuch a crisis with a fearful voice and tears in their eyes: "You are notgoing to divorce, are you?". As a general feeling they do love their mother;and they have got used to her depressions as well and are less and lesstouched by her behaviour in those times.

Children are always desperate to stay with their parents. Even those
who endure terrible physical abuse would rather stay with a parent
than be separated. (Are you sure, by the way, that she isn't using
physical violence on them when you're not around? If she's that out
of control of herself at those times, it's a possibility, and will
only get worse without some sort of intervention.)
Separate or endure? It is a simple mathematical question of where moresuffering is involved :-(

Those are *not* the only two choices, Mike... Get some help - there's
no shame in it, but there *is* blame for adults who don't actively
seek solutions to problems which endanger children, emotionally or
physically.

~Empress, who knows whereof she speaks.

>Tracey, I've stayed in the situation because ofseveral reasons.

Well, I knew that you had to have some. :)
First off, I still love that woman

That's a big one. And it gives you a reason to try
and figure out a resolution.
and we come along really well in those two thirdsof the time.

I understand what you're saying, but, looking at it
from a different POV, do your kids deserve to have
a third of their life suck? And do *you* deserve
to have a third of your life suck?
She looks good, and is really a kind person and goodmother then. It may sound hard to believe after whatI have told, but that is how things are indeed.

No, I don't find it hard to believe. I know quite a
few people who struggle with mental illness and they
can be fun, good, kind people at times. And I've known
quite a few of their SOs who have done their best to
hang in there with them. What I've seen, though, is
the only ones of these relationships that are healthy
(or as healthy as they can be under the circumstances)
are the ones where the person with the mental illness
gets help for it.
Then, the children would not want us split. How oftenhave I heard during such a crisis with a fearful voiceand tears in their eyes: "You are not going to divorce,are you?".

And I can understand this. But, you know what? Children
are not usually in the best position to judge what is
in their best interest. They are usually, as are most
of us, more afraid of the unknown than they are afraid
of the bad situation they are in.
As a general feeling they do love their mother; andthey have got used to her depressions as well and areless and less touched by her behaviour in those times.

But isn't that sad? And kind of scary? What *I* think is
probably the worst part is that it's a higher probability
that your children will end up in a bad/unhealthy rela-
tionship because of the model of a relationship you and
your wife are giving them right now. Right now, it's
being shown to them that your wife's behavior is accep-
table and they're even beginning to not even notice that
her treatment of them and you is NOT the right way to
treat people you love. I had a friend who had spent years
and years in an emotionally and physically abusive marriage.
One day she called me to tell me that she had just had her
teenage arrested because he hit her. And (get ready for
this) she said 'I don't know WHERE he got the idea it was
okay for him to hit me.' I, tactful person that I am,
blurted out 'Well, ****, I know where he got that idea.
He's been watching his dad beat the crap out of you his
whole life. THAT'S where he got that idea.'
Separate or endure? It is a simple mathematical questionof where more suffering is involved :-(

Actually, it's apples and oranges, at least IMO it is.
It's hard to explain, but I guess I believe that there
is 'healthy' suffering and 'unhealthy' suffering. The
first one involves pain that we go through that leads
us to a better place in our lives. I think that some-
times the pain and suffering that we go through when
there's a divorce is 'healthy' suffering, when it's
getting us and our children out of unhealthy situations.
The second one is the suffering that comes from being
in a situation that's bad for us and that will lead
us to unhealthy behavior in the future.

Tracey

>I don't necessarily make the recommendation that youaccuse her of this, but it seems like grossly negligentbehavior on her part to avoid seeking improvement out ofembarassment.

Yeah, I wanted to address this in my reply but forgot.
Looking at her priority of saving herself from being
embarrassed over not permanently scarring her children
for life, I find those priorities to be more than a
little skewed.

Tracey

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 20:01:15 +0200, "Mike Herbert"
<mike70002@hotmail.com> wrote:
It is hard, even impossible to sum up 15 years of marriage in a few dozenlines. But I have reached a point where I need some new ideas, some creativeinput from outside. I have hope to find it here. Thanks for bearing with methrough this somewhat lengthy message.

[Tale of wife's irrational and abusive rages snipped]

She sounds like a reasonable woman when she's not (hormonally?)
whacked out. Try catching one of her episodes on videotape and
playing it back for her when she's calm and relaxed. She may not even
realize how bad her behavior is.

I agree with the other posters who say that counseling is a necessary
step to protect yourself and your children, even if she won't
participate.

Mike Herbert <mike70002@hotmail.com> wrote:
She has been on Effexor for a few months and that improved things a lot. But she no longer wants to take these drugs because of health considerations.

Explicate please. What are the health reasons? Because this woman
*needs* meds.

Mike Herbert wrote: It is hard, even impossible to sum up 15 years of marriage in a few dozen lines. But I have reached a point where I need some new ideas, some creative input from outside. I have hope to find it here. Thanks for bearing with me through this somewhat lengthy message. We are married for 15 years and have three children aged 4, 9 and 12. I won' t even try to sum up what our marriage has been like over time. It has basically been as it is now, but the problems were lighter, newer and easier to put up with. To describe today's situation from my point of view: My wife Lidia is depressive and these depressions come in waves (about 20 per year). They last anything between 2 and up to 10 days. They do not show as sad, silent, unmotivated behaviour but rather as extremely aggressive periods of time. These periods are unpredictable to me. We are currently in such a period again, so I'll give one or two examples from the last days: I had been jogging yesterday (all was fine when I left), and upon coming back an hour later I told Lidia about having met two buddies and having run together, two of the usual rounds around the block, rather slowly, in 26 minutes each. Now that made her mad furious and for a long while she would not stop shouting about how silly men are to check their watch while running, to strive for performance, that she did not care and had not asked what time we had taken and what idiots we men all are. This went on for a long while and could not be stopped by anything I replied quite calmly. In the end I gave up, fell completely silent and let her vent. When she finally finished, she went, still mad, to bed. Today, since I am on vacation and Lidia not yet, I cleaned the house and cooked meal (like I often do, since I have a more "family-friendly" working schedule). She came in at noon, meal was on the table, children around, she goes off again. Error this time: I am wearing the wrong shirt: How can I dare to wear a shirt I only bought 6 weeks ago? What if I had stained it? Since she does the washing, do I take her for a complete idiot to give her additional work? Then silence, no further word during the whole meal, not to me nor the children. I tried to talk to the children somewhat, but like so often the atmosphere was rather tense. After half an hour she left for work again, slamming the door behind her. Now as I write this, she's back, still speechless. Important to know: Why haven't I left since long? Because 20 times 2 to 10 days makes less than one third of the year; all the rest Lidia is a relatively caring wife and mother and life works pretty well together. But I am wearing out of constantly having to watch this minefield, as are the children, who of course run into the same situation many times a month. I feel more and more empty and powerless, because I can see no obvious solution. Counselling she strictly refuses, shouting back and using the same abusive language dramatically worsens and lengthens the situation (and horrifies the children); best bet is to endure the abuse calmly (or leave the room and not let it touch you emotionally too much, which is difficult, but people learn) and generally wait for better times. But again, I am wearing out and getting close to my emotional limits. What ideas, suggestions, help do any of you see? Mike

A lot about your post is familiar. As you stated, it is not practical
to force someone to go to couples counseling (or individual therapy) if
she does not want to. Someone as you describe probably is enraged when
questions about her mental state are raised in any way. Seeing a
therapist yourself may help you cope with this abuse, even if the
therapist won't directly address her angry behavior.

You can also find coping ideas in books and online forums...

- Take a look at Dr Irene's web site for verbal abuse,
"http://www.drirene.com/". Unlike a lot of resources for this
problem, this site addresses those who want to stay and salvage a
relatioship such as yours. It also has constructive advice on how
angry people can learn to control their actions.

- Terrence Real's book on reconnecting couples, "How Can I Get Through
to You" describes how many men have contributed to anger in their
family through emotional withdrawl. It has helped me look at the
anger in my household differently and see ways that changing myself
can improve the situation. His ideas are described at
"http://www.relationalrecoveryinstitute.com", and in Amazon's excerpt
from this book, "http://tinyurl.com/hysh". If the couple depicted
there seems familiar, consider reading this book.

During her angry periods, how much does your wife pick on your children?
Even if she focuses _her_ attacks on you, they may lead to you vent your
anger on one of them. In any case, keep alert for signs of depression
or self-destructive behavior in your children. Be ready to take one of
them, or the entire family, to therapy for this situation.

I understand why you aren't gone -- take care of yourself and your
family.
--
Tsam

Empress Otku wrote: On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 22:23:56 +0200, "Mike Herbert" <mike70002@hotmail.com> wrote: [...] First off, this is not PMS. It happens randomly and I have tried to find anything predictable in it (typical weekdays, moon phase, biorythm), all to no avail. Her doctor, who happens to be a friend of mine, says it is depression. She has been on Effexor for a few months and that improved things a lot. But she no longer wants to take these drugs because of health considerations. She will have to be very careful with Effexor, it is one of the worst in terms of discontinuation; look up antidepressant discontinuation on google.

Really Empress? That's news to me. I thought Paxil was up there. Hmmm.
Maybe they're all up there - gotta come off in stages. I bet it's true for
all of em...

In article <3f20405c$1_2@news.vo.lu>, Mike Herbert wrote: Ignoramus, Doug, Tracey and Empress, thanks for your feedback. It is really appreciated. I'll try to answer in this common post, in order not to split up the thread into many particles. First off, this is not PMS. It happens randomly and I have tried to find anything predictable in it (typical weekdays, moon phase, biorythm), all to no avail. Her doctor, who happens to be a friend of mine, says it is depression. She has been on Effexor for a few months and that improved things a lot. But she no longer wants to take these drugs because of health considerations. I have some coping mechanisms and I no longer give a **** about my wife's rages. Nothing I can do about them, and therefore I am not too bothered. That is what I am trying to do. Just forget it, tell myself it is just another bad day, such is fate. Life goes on, things will improve again. Big BUT: We are all humans, and while I have hardened a lot emotionally, I cannot get to the point where it leaves me completely untouched. These conflicts always remain in my thoughts for hours and definitely succeed in preventing a peaceful rest at night. Maybe I haven't found the right technique just yet :-)

keep looking! get busy with some project that is independent, such as,
for instance, getting in shape. This may have a drastic impact on your
emotional state.
You can tell her firmly that you won't listen to her crap, and follow up on that. If there wasn't this endless loss of communications associated with each conflict, this might work. But she just stops talking/answering for days. Nothing in the world will get her to talk until the crisis all of a sudden ends by itself.

Consider that as a great thing, she is freeing you from the need to
communicate, so you can get busy with your own stuff.
If we are going to continue to make this life work for our family we need to work on how to deal with each other in a better way. I'm making an appointment for counseling, and I hope that in the interests of our family, if for no other, you'll come with me. You write very thoughtful stuff here, Doug, and I agree completely. I have actually asked her (more or less in your words even) to counsel together, but during the crisis there is no way she'd say yes ("I don't have a problem; YOU have a problem"), and in her fine periods she finds it too embarrassing to go. Still I think that this might be the proper way to deal with the problem, and that it needs to be considered further and more seriously.

I hear you...
I suggest counseling for *you*. Well, I am indeed getting close to counseling; in fact this post might is a first step for some feedback.

What do you want to get out of counseling?
Not on how to fix the problems because this doesn't sound like anything you can fix on your own but to figure out why you've stayed in this situation all of these years Tracey, I've stayed in the situation because of several reasons. First off, I still love that woman and we come along really well in those two thirds of the time. She looks good, and is really a kind person and good mother then. It may sound hard to believe after what I have told, but that is how things are indeed.

I hear ya...
Then, the children would not want us split. How often have I heard during such a crisis with a fearful voice and tears in their eyes: "You are not going to divorce, are you?". As a general feeling they do love their mother; and they have got used to her depressions as well and are less and less touched by her behaviour in those times.

In just a few years you could easily take the kids with you if they so
choose. They are getting to the age where choice matters.

Meanwhile, try to have an as good as possible family life, stay
involved with kids etc. Maybe things will get better!

i
Separate or endure? It is a simple mathematical question of where more suffering is involved :-( Mike

"Mike Herbert" <mike70002@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f20405c$1_2@news.vo.lu... You write very thoughtful stuff here, Doug, and I agree completely. I have actually asked her (more or less in your words even) to counsel together, but during the crisis there is no way she'd say yes ("I don't have a problem; YOU have a problem"), and in her fine periods she finds it too embarrassing to go.

Perhaps she doesn't realize that her behavior during the bad periods is also
embarrassing? Does she ever behave like this in front of anybody outside
the family? The answer to that might be revealing, in that if she puts on a
good front outside, then she *is* capable of controlling herself, and it
could imply that she wouldn't keep dumping on the rest of you if she thought
she wouldn't get away with it.

Still I think that this might be the proper way to deal with the problem, and that it needs to be considered further and more seriously. I suggest counseling for *you*.

You AND the children. They may be more profoundly affected than you - or
they - realize.

"Tracey" <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3F204D43.8030303@aol.com...

Maybe I'm not the best one to be giving this guy advice, since I'm divorced
myself - for a lot of reasons, one of which is that I didn't want to
continue subjecting myself and the kids to the kind of life he is
describing. I did have another comment, though, included below:
I understand what you're saying, but, looking at it from a different POV, do your kids deserve to have a third of their life suck? And do *you* deserve to have a third of your life suck?

Even beyond that, it actually affects the *good* part of your life, too.
I'm betting that you and the kids are worried enough about triggering an
episode that you dance around on eggshells a lot, even when things are good.
Based on that, could you honestly paraphrase Tracey as saying *all* of your
life sucks, but one third of it sucks worse than the rest?

It is pretty common for somebody in an abusive situation to confuse the
absence of something really bad with the presence of something good - the
times when there is nothing bad going on are so much better than the really
abusive times that they seem good in comparison. I've no way of knowing if
that is true for you, just thought I'd throw it out as something to think
about.

fairly_happy wrote: It is pretty common for somebody in an abusive situation to confuse the absence of something really bad with the presence of something good - the times when there is nothing bad going on are so much better than the really abusive times that they seem good in comparison. I've no way of knowing if that is true for you, just thought I'd throw it out as something to think about.

This is usually the "baseball bat" or "2x4" principle:

"Sure it hurts, but it feels wonderful when it stops!"

With that clarification, yes, it would be a good idea, just
to cut down on the damage your children's spouses will be
living with.

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup@softhome.net | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
"Do these pants make my penis look small?"

"Bill" <nowhere@earthlink.net> writes:
Empress Otku wrote: On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 22:23:56 +0200, "Mike Herbert" <mike70002@hotmail.com> wrote: [...] First off, this is not PMS. It happens randomly and I have tried to find anything predictable in it (typical weekdays, moon phase, biorythm), all to no avail. Her doctor, who happens to be a friend of mine, says it is depression. She has been on Effexor for a few months and that improved things a lot. But she no longer wants to take these drugs because of health considerations. She will have to be very careful with Effexor, it is one of the worst in terms of discontinuation; look up antidepressant discontinuation on google. Really Empress? That's news to me. I thought Paxil was up there. Hmmm. Maybe they're all up there - gotta come off in stages. I bet it's true for all of em...

Effexor is generally considered to be the worst of the SSRI and
SSRI-like drugs for coming off of. People's experiences coming off
anti-depressants vary wildly. My wife tried to come of Celexa once,
and it was really bad. She has also been on Effexor, and was able to
switch from Effexor to Lexapro with no bad experiences, and from
Lexapro to Welbutrin with no bad experiences. Welbutrin is supposed
to be relatively easy to wean from.

"Mike Herbert" <mike70002@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3f201eea$1_1@news.vo.lu>... But again, I am wearing out and getting close to my emotional limits. What ideas, suggestions, help do any of you see?

She is not going to change unless she has a compelling reason to
change. You are enabling her behavior.

Her behavior sounds to me like cyclothymia, or one of the disorders
within the bipolar spectrum. Perhaps a rapid cycler. Lithium or other
mood stabilizing drug would probably suit her better than an
antidepressant. But that's a moot point, if she won't commit to
therapy.

For those with bipolar, the number one reason that therapy fails is
DENIAL. It's unfortunately very common for those with the disorder to
go off the meds due to side effects, or, as you say, embarrassment.
Ironically, once the meds start working, it's very easy to deny you
ever had a problem to begin with.

I have been on lithium myself. I have gone through denial. It took the
threat of losing my children to knock me out of it.

There is nothing you can do if she won't bother to try to change for
your sake and the children. Perhaps leaving her, and taking the
children UNTIL SHE COMMITS TO HER TREATMENT, is the most loving thing
you can do right now. It might be enough to knock some sense into her,
get her to confront her denial. She needs to understand how much this
really means to you. So far, you've been willing to put up with quite
a lot. It is really up to you to set your limits. THEN she can decide
what she is willing to do to stay within your limits, or not.

IMHO....

jen

>It is pretty common for somebody in an abusivesituation to confuse the absence of somethingreally bad with the presence of something good -the times when there is nothing bad going onare so much better than the really abusivetimes that they seem good in comparison.

That's a great point. Even if the relationship
IS really good at times, I would think the dread
of the bad times would leave a shadow on the good
times.

Tracey

Ignoramus18261 <ignoramus18261@NOSPAM.18261.invalid> writes:
Sounds familiar, except for the "all men" angle. New shirt etc. Are you sure they are depressions and not 1) PMS (rages around the period in females) 2) just being a scandalous person Myself, I have to say that I have some coping mechanisms and I no longer give a **** about my wife's rages. Nothing I can do about them, and therefore I am not too bothered. I am generally feeling better lately and blow off anything bad without being too upset. Okay, maybe I am bothered, but it could be worse. So I more or less ignore the bad times, and enjoy the good times. Also, contrary to the myth, women can control themselevs even when pmsing or whatever. You do not have to take it nicely, it is not your job description. You can tell her firmly that you won't listen to her crap, and follow up on that. And you may see some amazing effect. Since the time I adopted this attitude, I am targeted to a much lesser extent.

Does your son get targeted at all? I worry about children of people
who fly into rages.

On 24 Jul 2003 17:34:11 -0700, shinypenny0001@yahoo.com (shinypenny)
wrote:
She is not going to change unless she has a compelling reason tochange. You are enabling her behavior.Her behavior sounds to me like cyclothymia, or one of the disorderswithin the bipolar spectrum. Perhaps a rapid cycler. Lithium or othermood stabilizing drug would probably suit her better than anantidepressant. But that's a moot point, if she won't commit totherapy.For those with bipolar, the number one reason that therapy fails isDENIAL. It's unfortunately very common for those with the disorder togo off the meds due to side effects, or, as you say, embarrassment.Ironically, once the meds start working, it's very easy to deny youever had a problem to begin with.

<snipped>

All excellent points! And you have been there, so I hope Mike takes
you very seriously.

What worries me about what Mike wrote is accepting a diagnosis from a
friend, who even though he may be a doctor, may not be a
"psychiatrist". I realize that most antidep't meds are being
prescribed by GPs now, but they in *no way* have the kind of training
that should be required before handing out brain meds.

I think it's a serious concern, particularly since Mike's wife doesn't
seem to be responding to Effexor.

~Empress

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 22:10:20 GMT, "Bill" <nowhere@earthlink.net>
wrote:
Really Empress? That's news to me. I thought Paxil was up there. Hmmm.Maybe they're all up there - gotta come off in stages. I bet it's true forall of em...

Paxil has a very short half-life so you have to taper down very
slowly. This is a website that could be very helpful to someone
trying to discontinue Paxil.

http://www.quitpaxil.org/


~Empress

In article <wp0Ua.137907$N7.20125@sccrnsc03>, Doug Anderson wrote: Ignoramus18261 <ignoramus18261@NOSPAM.18261.invalid> writes: Sounds familiar, except for the "all men" angle. New shirt etc. Are you sure they are depressions and not 1) PMS (rages around the period in females) 2) just being a scandalous person Myself, I have to say that I have some coping mechanisms and I no longer give a **** about my wife's rages. Nothing I can do about them, and therefore I am not too bothered. I am generally feeling better lately and blow off anything bad without being too upset. Okay, maybe I am bothered, but it could be worse. So I more or less ignore the bad times, and enjoy the good times. Also, contrary to the myth, women can control themselevs even when pmsing or whatever. You do not have to take it nicely, it is not your job description. You can tell her firmly that you won't listen to her crap, and follow up on that. And you may see some amazing effect. Since the time I adopted this attitude, I am targeted to a much lesser extent. Does your son get targeted at all? I worry about children of people who fly into rages.

Not much so far. Good question though. They are not violent rages,
just a huge outpouring of extremely negative emotions.

i

He, he, we seem to be in a pretty much similar situation and have developed
a pretty much similar strategy to cope with it. It has not made me lose my
sense of humour and I still do not see life as being made up of drama and
tragedy alone. I can often laugh, loud or in silence, about the situation,
but otoh it makes me wear out and as of late I have had sudden outbursts of
tears while I was alone in the house. Made me suspicious if there were not
uncontrollable and unadmitted feelings wobbling under the surface... Can't
be my hormons or the summer heat alone... :-)

As to your way of coping with things, you seem to have no ambitions to
change anything about it. How long are you married? Do you have children? Do
you never get the feeling, waking up at night, that this caroussel should
not go on spinning forever?

Mike


"Ignoramus18786" <ignoramus18786@NOSPAM.18786.invalid> schrieb im
Newsbeitrag news:slrnbi2ako.m88.ignoramus18786@manifold.algebr a.com... You do not need to walk on eggshells. As you can see, being real careful and stuff does not help. So do NOT be real careful, just go about your life more happily and spontaneously. And if it triggers a rage, so what? Why do you care that someone is mad that you are wearing a new shirt around the house? Are you upset when, say, a thunderstorm interrupts your gardening (for example)? I bet that you are upset but not much because you have no control over it. Same here, if there is a mental thunderstorm taht you can't control, well, not much you can do about it other than go someplace dry (figuratively speaking) or ignoring it, or even participating in it. Make sure however that you do not allow her to abuse the kids. i

In article <3f213b46$1_2@news.vo.lu>, Mike Herbert wrote: He, he, we seem to be in a pretty much similar situation and have developed a pretty much similar strategy to cope with it. It has not made me lose my sense of humour and I still do not see life as being made up of drama and tragedy alone. I can often laugh, loud or in silence, about the situation, but otoh it makes me wear out and as of late I have had sudden outbursts of tears while I was alone in the house. Made me suspicious if there were not uncontrollable and unadmitted feelings wobbling under the surface... Can't be my hormons or the summer heat alone... :-) As to your way of coping with things, you seem to have no ambitions to change anything about it. How long are you married? Do you have children? Do you never get the feeling, waking up at night, that this caroussel should not go on spinning forever?

Well, like yours, my life is not bad in general.

I obviously do have an ambition to change it for the better and, in
fact, in the last 6 months my family life is much better. I do not let
her make me too upset, and she no longer refuses to talk to me for
days, or to be more exact, it now happens very infrequently, maybe
twice in the entire period. You see, with those ragers, if they know
they cannot get you, there is no t much point in raging. This is all
pretty animalistic.

I also make a point of maintaining good relationship in general. Like,
I bring flowers, talk to her about her work and just listen every day,
take her to parties and events, etc etc etc. I am obviously not a
perfect husband, but I do make some effort. But when she is raging, I
no longer feel intimidated, afraid, and I do not make too great
attemts to hold back either. This is pretty helpful in general, to my
mental condition first of all, and to the rages. All in all though,
obviously, I would prefer a family life without scandals.

i
Mike "Ignoramus18786" <ignoramus18786@NOSPAM.18786.invalid> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:slrnbi2ako.m88.ignoramus18786@manifold.algebr a.com... You do not need to walk on eggshells. As you can see, being real careful and stuff does not help. So do NOT be real careful, just go about your life more happily and spontaneously. And if it triggers a rage, so what? Why do you care that someone is mad that you are wearing a new shirt around the house? Are you upset when, say, a thunderstorm interrupts your gardening (for example)? I bet that you are upset but not much because you have no control over it. Same here, if there is a mental thunderstorm taht you can't control, well, not much you can do about it other than go someplace dry (figuratively speaking) or ignoring it, or even participating in it. Make sure however that you do not allow her to abuse the kids. i

"Mike Herbert" <mike70002@hotmail.com> writes:
snip No counselling due to embarrassment: Embarrassment may be the wrong word. In good times she simply refuses to talk to any length about the problem. "I know it happens, she says, but it generally is your or the childrens' own fault." There is no trace of guilt in her thoughts, ever, not even in those good times. If I can get her to realize that danger is imminent, we'd be a good step further along. My fault for not yet having got this transmitted properly...and definitely one thing I'll take up seriously now.

Let me comment just on this. For purposes of doing something about
this, it doesn't matter whose "fault" it is that she goes into rages.
It is a destructive and inappropriate way to treat people that you
love. So even if it was your "fault" (whatever that would mean), or
the children's fault (!!), it would still be a problem that is
important to work on.

So if that is her line, a response that might work is "maybe there are
ways I can behave that would be better, but this is a change in our
relationship that we've been unable to make ourselves. And since I
really want this change to happen, I'd like us to seek professional
help."

As far as children - they're very resilient. Many wonderful people
grow up out of much worse situations than the one you're describing.
_However_ many of these wonderful people have problems of their own in
their adult relationships that are related to the way they were
(mis)treated as children.
snip

Good luck, and keep us posted if you can.

Doug

Empress Otku wrote in message news:<tq41ivsc41m6onhd8c4nk13kilcmbjj04q@4ax.com>... All excellent points! And you have been there, so I hope Mike takes you very seriously. What worries me about what Mike wrote is accepting a diagnosis from a friend, who even though he may be a doctor, may not be a "psychiatrist". I realize that most antidep't meds are being prescribed by GPs now, but they in *no way* have the kind of training that should be required before handing out brain meds. I think it's a serious concern, particularly since Mike's wife doesn't seem to be responding to Effexor.

Oh, I got the impression the AD actually made a difference, but his
wife just didn't want to continue with it. I think that is very, very
common. Sometimes, it takes trial and error. For me, even though it
was clear the lithium made a tremendous difference, I had a hard time
accepting the idea that I had a mental illness. It took going on and
off of the meds on my own a few times to slowly accept the idea.
(Angry irritable outbursts are quite common with bipolar; I did not
have these symptoms, on the contrary, I was the "happy" kind of
manic).

It may be the same with Mike's wife. She may just need time to accept
this about herself. Without completely alienating her and becoming
adversarial about it, he *should* still keep the pressure up. The
stakes should be clear, or else there's no reason for her to keep
working on it.

Another thought I had was to ask Mike if his wife is dieting. I have
been watching my weight lately and man, do I tend to get *****y when
I'm hungry!! My patience simply wears thin and I snap at my S.O. I
have a long commute now, so by the time I get home I am in a very
testy mood cuz I'm hungry. Once I eat, I'm sweet as a cupcake again.

Just a thought, because it seemed the two incidences Mike reported
involved mealtimes.

jen

Jen,

No there are no diets involved. Lidia is no big eater anyway and weights
just 121 lbs for 5 feet 8 inches. I mentioned mealtimes indeed because that
is the typical "talk" happening in our family and often the starting point
of our adventures. Since we both work, and do a lot of driving the children
around, we rarely find a calm moment during the day except during lunch
hour.

Mike
Another thought I had was to ask Mike if his wife is dieting. I have been watching my weight lately and man, do I tend to get *****y when I'm hungry!! My patience simply wears thin and I snap at my S.O. I have a long commute now, so by the time I get home I am in a very testy mood cuz I'm hungry. Once I eat, I'm sweet as a cupcake again. Just a thought, because it seemed the two incidences Mike reported involved mealtimes. jen

Mike Herbert <mike70002@hotmail.com> wrote:
The children: They are targetted for short outbursts only and problems are in the 1 day range. I am the main target and hence get VIP treatment :-). So far, children appear healthy, have friends, laugh a lot and are excellent at school. Nothing self-destructive I could notice, but I am aware of the shadow lurking in their future, even more so after reading all your warnings.

I read a book called "Shadow Syndromes" and it really hit me between the
eyes how bad it is for children to have an even slightly depressed
mother (I was depressed, but *thought* I was handling it). I always
encourage people to take this very seriously.

Emma Anne wrote: Mike Herbert <mike70002@hotmail.com> wrote: The children: They are targetted for short outbursts only and problems are in the 1 day range. I am the main target and hence get VIP treatment :-). So far, children appear healthy, have friends, laugh a lot and are excellent at school. Nothing self-destructive I could notice, but I am aware of the shadow lurking in their future, even more so after reading all your warnings. I read a book called "Shadow Syndromes" and it really hit me between the eyes how bad it is for children to have an even slightly depressed mother (I was depressed, but *thought* I was handling it). I always encourage people to take this very seriously.

Do you remember the chapter (2) on Masked Depression - The Biology of Being
Difficult? I just glanced at the book on Amazon, but it didn't show that
section (to the best of my knowledge). Anyway, if you do happen to recall -
what did it essentially say?

> She has been on Effexor for a few months and that improvedthings a lot. But she no longer wants to take these drugs because of healthconsiderations.

One would wonder what type of effect these rages have on her health, and that
of anyone unfortunate enough to be exposed to them.

Bev


Remove the "SpamFree" for email, please.
Join us in the Diabetic-Talk Chatroom on UnderNet
/server irc.undernet.org --- /join #Diabetic-Talk
More info: http://www.diabetic-talk.org/

On 26 Jul 2003 22:56:20 GMT, sambalover@aol.comSpamFree (Bev) wrote:
She has been on Effexor for a few months and that improvedthings a lot. But she no longer wants to take these drugs because of healthconsiderations.One would wonder what type of effect these rages have on her health, and thatof anyone unfortunate enough to be exposed to them.

One would also wonder if she even CARES about the effect her rages
have on those exposed to them. It sounds like she doesn't.

Ignoramus31468 wrote: Outstanding post By The Way.

Most assuredly.
I am curious, what if you leave house for a little while if you start raging? Would it help?

Ig, as I understand it, Rage overrides the intellect; if
it didn't, it wouldn't be a "rage". If there was enough
capacity to do the "remove self from arena" then there'd
be enough to control it other ways.

There are times when one's anger comes out; sometimes the
key is to do it in a "safe" place... and perhaps that is
the actual key. There's a part of her that feels "safe"
to express the accumulated pain from childhood/etc which
still festers *despite* what her husband does for her.

Rage, after all, "is".

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup@softhome.net | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
"Do these pants make my penis look small?"

In article <slrnbiacvo.27s.cupasoup@soup2nets.net.dhis.org>, Jack C Lipton wrote: Ignoramus31468 wrote: Outstanding post By The Way. Most assuredly. I am curious, what if you leave house for a little while if you start raging? Would it help? Ig, as I understand it, Rage overrides the intellect; if it didn't, it wouldn't be a "rage". If there was enough capacity to do the "remove self from arena" then there'd be enough to control it other ways. There are times when one's anger comes out; sometimes the key is to do it in a "safe" place... and perhaps that is the actual key. There's a part of her that feels "safe" to express the accumulated pain from childhood/etc which still festers *despite* what her husband does for her. Rage, after all, "is".

Good point about her feeling safe to express her rage.

Myself, I now try to conduct my behavior so that it is neither safe,
nor fruitful, to rage at me. Obviously by unsafe I mean itis not
emotionally safe, as I am a completely nonviolent person. However my
nonviolence ends where another person's violence starts. So early in
the marriage or even before, I communicated that any violence on my
wife's part will be met with a very severe response, without
specifying details. So far there has been no violence.


and voila, the amount of raging is way down!

i

Bill <nowhere@earthlink.net> wrote:
Emma Anne wrote: Mike Herbert <mike70002@hotmail.com> wrote: The children: They are targetted for short outbursts only and problems are in the 1 day range. I am the main target and hence get VIP treatment :-). So far, children appear healthy, have friends, laugh a lot and are excellent at school. Nothing self-destructive I could notice, but I am aware of the shadow lurking in their future, even more so after reading all your warnings. I read a book called "Shadow Syndromes" and it really hit me between the eyes how bad it is for children to have an even slightly depressed mother (I was depressed, but *thought* I was handling it). I always encourage people to take this very seriously. Do you remember the chapter (2) on Masked Depression - The Biology of Being Difficult? I just glanced at the book on Amazon, but it didn't show that section (to the best of my knowledge). Anyway, if you do happen to recall - what did it essentially say?

I don't remember very specifically. I just remember that it is very
hard for family members, and especially children to be around a person
who is even slightly depressed - even when the person *thinks* she is
handling and not showing her feelings.

I have the book somewhere - if I find it I'll provide some more info.

Emma Anne wrote: Bill <nowhere@earthlink.net> wrote: Emma Anne wrote: Mike Herbert <mike70002@hotmail.com> wrote:> The children: They are targetted for short outbursts only and problems> are in the 1 day range. I am the main target and hence get VIP> treatment :-). So far, children appear healthy, have friends, laugh a> lot and are excellent at school. Nothing self-destructive I could> notice, but I am aware of the shadow lurking in their future, even more> so after reading all your warnings. I read a book called "Shadow Syndromes" and it really hit me between the eyes how bad it is for children to have an even slightly depressed mother (I was depressed, but *thought* I was handling it). I always encourage people to take this very seriously. Do you remember the chapter (2) on Masked Depression - The Biology of Being Difficult? I just glanced at the book on Amazon, but it didn't show that section (to the best of my knowledge). Anyway, if you do happen to recall - what did it essentially say? I don't remember very specifically. I just remember that it is very hard for family members, and especially children to be around a person who is even slightly depressed - even when the person *thinks* she is handling and not showing her feelings.

Yup.
I have the book somewhere - if I find it I'll provide some more info.

OK. Thanks, Emma.

Heksie,

Thanks you for that tremendously open post.

I have given all the posts here a lot of thought, and have made extensive
research on the net these last days. It might well be that Lidia has indeed
some form of borderline personality, something I had not even heard about
until right now. But the way she acts, the way she turns facts around to
suit her mood or feelings (how often have I wished over the years to have
all our interaction on videotape, just to check objectively what happened or
was said) and the complete refusal to take any responsibility for her
behaviour seem all to be pointing to this conclusion.

I have ordered the eggshell book at amazon now, and hope to find further
indications in there. Maybe I can even get Lidia to read all or part of it.

Further to your post: Although both of you act in a very similar way, you
are different from my wife in at least three very important aspects:

1) You have been abused and raped. Lidia has not. It is a question I have
asked dozens of times over the years (because I could not imagine
otherwise), but she remains relaxed, laughs, confirms again and again that
there is nothing to tell, does not withdraw emotionally. I guess, if there
had been something bad in her past, it would sooner or later shine through
at these moments and show for someone who knows her well.

2) Sooner or later after the attack, you succeed in switching to
observer-mode and watching the replay from outside. This opens up the
possibility to judge what has happened much more objectively. I am amazed in
how a, dare I say, _neutral_ way you describe your behaviour. Lidia is not
up to this and would NEVER have been able to write what you did.

3) You understand that you needed help, and now you are active towards
reducing the frequency of these rage periods.

I'll tell you what happened here yesterday. Lidia's mood being what it is
for over a week now (and that being the third week with only short
intermittent breaks of 2-3 days), I'm nervously pretty wrecked and at the
same time feel some new energy to change things because of this thread,
which gives me a lot of mental backup.

So yesterday evening, when it all started again (she came from a bicycle
tour and I asked what route she had taken, "Now why should you care about
blabla..."), I lost my temper a bit and told her that I have had real anough
of all this crappy behaviour and that it is pretty much high noon to think
about consequences. She's blowing the family to pieces, and I'd want her to
stop it at this point (silly idea, I know, but in the heat of the
emotion...), to see a doctor where I would most willingly accept to go as a
couple or even as the whole family, or if she can't help seeing me and the
kids as anything else but undesirable kidney-stones in her biography, then
draw the line and try living on her own for a while.

The answer: I do not want to talk (again and again), she left the room, I
followed her to the adjacent room where she had laid down and stared at the
ceiling, again she would not talk, asked without visible emotion when I was
going to stop my monologue (which it certainly was, alas), said that I could
well go see a doctor, she'd wish me much pleasure, and finally went to bed.
Before all jump on me now and tell me about my admittedly unsensible
behaviour: I just could not take it any more. I have no other explanation or
justification to provide.

Positive points: She slept badly this night (got up at 1 to watch TV until
4), so she may have been touched after all, which I'd consider a good and so
far preciously rare thing. Of course I did not sleep much either, but that's
no first :-) Second, she's fine today, not overwhelmingly talkative nor
sweet, but she talks to the children and me much more than she has in a
week, and she even asked a couple of questions, showing some interest in
what we have done at home today. When we went briefly shopping, she even
grabbed my hand for a short while.

The book will arrive in a few days. I'll try to build on from there. Maybe I
will also dare let Lidia read your letter when she's in a fine, I mean very
fine (!)and hence low-risk period. It might be valuable even more then for
her, than it has already been now for me.

Mike

In article <eq8yqisaov.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu>, Doug Anderson wrote: So take this with a grain of salt, but it's based on some at least slightly related experience (though my wife's anger was more the passive-agressive kind).

was it a positive experience?

i

Hi Doug,
2) Sooner or later after the attack, you succeed in switching to observer-mode and watching the replay from outside. This opens up the possibility to judge what has happened much more objectively. I am
amazed in how a, dare I say, _neutral_ way you describe your behaviour. Lidia is
not up to this and would NEVER have been able to write what you did. 3) You understand that you needed help, and now you are active towards reducing the frequency of these rage periods. Actually, if you think about it only 3) is significant. Who knows why your wife is the way she is. The important difference in heksie's case is that she is taking responsibility for her actions and trying to improve the situation.

Maybe, but the perspective change in 2) is the required condition for 3).

If you are only involved in the momentary action and unable to step out of
the scene later and mentally replay/sum up what happens again and again,
you'll not come to an at least tentatively objective view. Seeing the
mechanism and the impact of your actions, and seeing how both of these spoil
your own life and that of others will make the need for help arise.
More productive (probably) is a route that doesn't involve blaming her, but does involve getting help (with the hope that she will eventually start taking responsibility for her part in things). So "I'm finding this marriage impossible to deal with, we need help" might work better than "I'm finding you impossible to deal with, you need help." (Even if the latter were the case.)

Agreed, Doug. Communication issues are likely to calm down now i.e. get more
manageable and then it may well be possible to fight the next battle as a
team and from a common side. Things have started to move, and that in itself
produces relief. Up to us to keep the process alive and not fall back into a
comfortable routine (big danger, speaking from experience :-)

Mike

"Mike Herbert" <mike70002@hotmail.com> writes:
Hi Doug, 2) Sooner or later after the attack, you succeed in switching to observer-mode and watching the replay from outside. This opens up the possibility to judge what has happened much more objectively. I am amazed in how a, dare I say, _neutral_ way you describe your behaviour. Lidia is not up to this and would NEVER have been able to write what you did. 3) You understand that you needed help, and now you are active towards reducing the frequency of these rage periods. Actually, if you think about it only 3) is significant. Who knows why your wife is the way she is. The important difference in heksie's case is that she is taking responsibility for her actions and trying to improve the situation. Maybe, but the perspective change in 2) is the required condition for 3).

Sure. Or something is necessary to bring about the change toward 3.
I didn't mean to argue with you about the points, but as long as _some_a
way is found toward recognizing the damage one's behavior is doing and
trying to repair it, the cause of that behavior and the route to
better behavior are subsidiary points.

Anyhow, good luck, and keep thinking!

Doug

On 28 Jul 2003 14:02:40 GMT, Ignoramus31468
<ignoramus31468@NOSPAM.31468.invalid> wrote:

}}In article <3f252774.15187965@news.intekom.co.za>, heksie wrote:
}}> On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 20:01:15 +0200, "Mike Herbert"
}}><mike70002@hotmail.com> wrote:
}}>
}}> "It is hard, even impossible to sum up 15 years of marriage in a
few
}}> dozen lines. But I have reached a point where I need some new
ideas,
}}> some creative" -- snipped.
}}>
}}> Dear Mike,
}}>
}}> I am a wife who behaves emotionally aggresive towards my husband.
}}> Every now and then, I "attack" him with the most acidic sharp
}}> tongue that even I don't know how I do it. --snipped


}}ignoramus is always right... yep, just living a good life is a great
}}idea for the OP. Have fun, friends, exercise, etc etc, do not let
}}your wife ruin your life.
}}
}}Outstanding post By The Way.
}}
}}I am curious, what if you leave house for a little while if you
start
}}raging? Would it help?

Dear Ignoramus

I have tried many things, but leaving home with the sound of
screeching tyres scared my family and they prefer that I do
not go out when raging, since I tend to speed.

We have a large garden, and I am a passionate gardener, being
in the garden calms me down pretty quickly, when I see the
activity of insects, butterflies and birds (it gives me perspective).

I also have a flock of birds, caring for them is also calming.
I also play pcgames, this helps a lot, as I can lose myself in
an absorbing solo activity.

I also write, do graphics, webdesign, poetry (not in english), I am
a hermit actually.

The thing is, most of the time I am a pleasant, highly creative and
intelligent being, over the years I have learned to control my rage,
I don't throw and break things anymore, I don't scream with hysteria
anymore. ( I don't tear his newspapers, or hack his pc or hide his
carkeys anymore ...)

The times I lose control are getting less and less severe, it is quite
disconcerting for me to go from happy and intelligent to being an out
of control stupid as an *** childish super*****.

It is very hard work to be normal for me, for you and others it is a
subconscious process, I have to work at it consciousely and
constantly.

No, leaving home would make it all worse, my home is my haven.

*Therapy has taught me to understand myself better and to control
myself better, I really recommend it (cognitive therapy, not freudian
bull) to anyone with similar problems. Their loved ones, should
also be told what it's all about, and what the warning signs of a
rage attack are.
regards, heksie

(my husband once said: you behave like a teenager, and I had to agree,
it seems I'm growing up at last, but it's not a supersonic process)

On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 21:22:42 +0200, "Mike Herbert"
<mike70002@hotmail.com> wrote:

}}Heksie,
}}
}}Thanks you for that tremendously open post.
}}
}}I have given all the posts here a lot of thought, and have made
extensive
}}research on the net these last days. It might well be that Lidia has
indeed
}}some form of borderline personality, something I had not even heard
about --snipped
}}Mike

Dear Mike,

My husband also ordered and read the eggshell book, I was fuming when
I saw it for the first time, the moment he left for work, I read the
book and it scared me.

I knew instantly that the book was going to empower him against me,
and it did. After reading the book he stood up for himself more, did
not back down, but re-asserted his very logical rational views.

He also took the children aside and explained my illness to them, and
they discussed me and my moods and how to recognise a coming rage.

Mike, you are definately on the right path, don't budge. Lidia will
push you as far as you can go and further, but if you refuse to budge
the chances are that she will (after a few attempts to ruffle you)
eventually realise that THE TIME has come. *the time to face herself
and get help or lose you.

regards, heksie