On 17 Jul 2003 12:05:27 -0700, invalidasd@hotmail.com (asd) wrote:
I'm sorry if this message seems trite in this newsgroup but I can'tstop thinking about this and there's no alt.support.relationships... Igot extremely drunk last night and cheated on my girlfriend with myroommate (she is a friend of my girlfriend as well.) I'm going to goto my GF's apartment tonight and tell her, but I'm terrified she'llhate me after this. I care for her so much... Has anyone here managedto work through something like this successfully?

Here is some advice you can take to the bank.

DO NOT TELL HER!!!

Ignore this advice at your own peril.

In article <3f1cc3a8.5652646@news.cis.dfn.de>, Kendricks
<jdk00@yahoo.com> wrote:
No harm, no foul - if the ref didn't see it, IT DIDN'T HAPPEN!!!

You can't win on this one.
Y'all may recall my wife approvingy showing me the Arlo & Janis cartoon
in which in the final panel Janis says to Arlo, "There are some things
a wife does not want to know about her husband."
And so, when I don't tell her, she says I can't be trusted.

Ted

Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message news:<220720032259520892%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com>... In article <3f1cc3a8.5652646@news.cis.dfn.de>, Kendricks <jdk00@yahoo.com> wrote: No harm, no foul - if the ref didn't see it, IT DIDN'T HAPPEN!!! You can't win on this one. Y'all may recall my wife approvingy showing me the Arlo & Janis cartoon in which in the final panel Janis says to Arlo, "There are some things a wife does not want to know about her husband." And so, when I don't tell her, she says I can't be trusted. Ted

You and your wife have set up your marriage the way that you need it
to be. You can keep it the same until one of you dies or you can
change it. What is obnoxious is to act as if it just happened or was
meant to be or that you are powerless.

In article <56904c48.0307250902.4bb9b7d5@posting.google.com>, keelandra
sislack <keelandrasislack@yahoo.com> wrote:
You and your wife have set up your marriage the way that you need itto be.

What kind of nonsense is this? You make it sound like we went to
the marriage engineering manual and consciously picked among
all the various styles of marriage the one that was best for us and
set out to make it happen.

Hell no. We just stumbled into it, making choices based on our
completely uninformed intuition as to what was right and caring
at the moment, without heed *or knowledge* of what the long-term
consequences were. We brought our personality quirks and childhood
traumas and ways of coping into it and never examined any of them or how
they'd interact with each other. Pre-marital counselling? In 1966?
Of course not. (OK, maybe we had a half-hour with the minister
who'd known my wife her entire life -- had he even known some
of the right questions to ask he wouldn't have.)
You can keep it the same until one of you dies or you canchange it. What is obnoxious is to act as if it just happened or wasmeant to be or that you are powerless.

I don't think you want to get me started on all those topics... but
I guess you could look up Gerald May's "Addiction and Grace" and
read Psalm 139, especially vs. 13 and 15-16, and when you've digested
all that ask again.

Ted

Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> writes:
In article <56904c48.0307250902.4bb9b7d5@posting.google.com>, keelandra sislack <keelandrasislack@yahoo.com> wrote:You and your wife have set up your marriage the way that you need itto be. What kind of nonsense is this? You make it sound like we went to the marriage engineering manual and consciously picked among all the various styles of marriage the one that was best for us and set out to make it happen. Hell no. We just stumbled into it, making choices based on our completely uninformed intuition as to what was right and caring at the moment, without heed *or knowledge* of what the long-term consequences were. We brought our personality quirks and childhood traumas and ways of coping into it and never examined any of them or how they'd interact with each other.

Maybe this is what Keelandra meant.

After all, the choices that you and your wife made (in choosing each
other, in choosing how to behave with each other, etc.) weren't
random. They were based on who you are.

Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> writes:
In article <ea8yqml0h1.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu>, Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote: Maybe this is what Keelandra meant. I hope she will tell us. After all, the choices that you and your wife made (in choosing each other, in choosing how to behave with each other, etc.) weren't random. They were based on who you are. I'll reserve judgement on the "choosing each other part" in that there was a lot more at work than just us, but as to the rest my point is that those choices were neither conscious nor informed. If you don't know how to behave any other way than you did, or that any other way of behavng is possible, how can you say you chose that way?

I have no trouble believing in people making uninformed choices. All
of us do it all the time. Similarly we all make choices for reasons
that we are not conscious of.

If you are asserting that you didn't think: "OK, I want to end up in
35 years in a marriage with a woman I don't feel intimate with, and
who is not interested in any of the ways that I, Ted, right now want
to express and feel intimacy" then I have no trouble believing you.

If you are asserting that you and your wife didn't _make_ choices
which resulting in you being where you are, then I don't believe you.

Doug

Doug Anderson wrote: Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> writes: In article <ea8yqml0h1.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu>, Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote: Maybe this is what Keelandra meant. I hope she will tell us. After all, the choices that you and your wife made (in choosing each other, in choosing how to behave with each other, etc.) weren't random. They were based on who you are. I'll reserve judgement on the "choosing each other part" in that there was a lot more at work than just us, but as to the rest my point is that those choices were neither conscious nor informed. If you don't know how to behave any other way than you did, or that any other way of behavng is possible, how can you say you chose that way? I have no trouble believing in people making uninformed choices. All of us do it all the time. Similarly we all make choices for reasons that we are not conscious of. If you are asserting that you didn't think: "OK, I want to end up in 35 years in a marriage with a woman I don't feel intimate with, and who is not interested in any of the ways that I, Ted, right now want to express and feel intimacy" then I have no trouble believing you. If you are asserting that you and your wife didn't _make_ choices which resulting in you being where you are, then I don't believe you. Doug

....didn't, and still aren't (making choices). Well, scratch that. Doing
nothing but playing victim IS a choice.

Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<ea8yqml0h1.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu>... Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> writes: In article <56904c48.0307250902.4bb9b7d5@posting.google.com>, keelandra sislack <keelandrasislack@yahoo.com> wrote:You and your wife have set up your marriage the way that you need itto be. What kind of nonsense is this? You make it sound like we went to the marriage engineering manual and consciously picked among all the various styles of marriage the one that was best for us and set out to make it happen. Hell no. We just stumbled into it, making choices based on our completely uninformed intuition as to what was right and caring at the moment, without heed *or knowledge* of what the long-term consequences were. We brought our personality quirks and childhood traumas and ways of coping into it and never examined any of them or how they'd interact with each other. Maybe this is what Keelandra meant. After all, the choices that you and your wife made (in choosing each other, in choosing how to behave with each other, etc.) weren't random. They were based on who you are.

Your immediate response about it being nonsense speaks volumes.

In article <56904c48.0307251912.1bc7df6f@posting.google.com>, keelandra
sislack <keelandrasislack@yahoo.com> wrote:
Your immediate response about it being nonsense speaks volumes.

It does? Let me quote you again --
You and your wife have set up your marriage the way that you need itto be.

"set up" describes a conscious choice, a deliberate plan -- that's what
I'm calling nonsense. How at age 22 without my ever having had any
significant relationships with women or my wife with men or any
training on what we were getting into could I have possibly known what
it "needed to be?" Answer me that.

Ted

Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> writes:
In article <56904c48.0307251912.1bc7df6f@posting.google.com>, keelandra sislack <keelandrasislack@yahoo.com> wrote: Your immediate response about it being nonsense speaks volumes. It does? Let me quote you again -- >You and your wife have set up your marriage the way that you need it >to be. "set up" describes a conscious choice, a deliberate plan -- that's what I'm calling nonsense.

Actually, I don't think "set up" implies a deliberate plan. I do
think that Keelandra is probably right, and for better and worse,
that's what we all do. We choose mates and styles of interacting them
which fill some need of ours.
How at age 22 without my ever having had any significant relationships with women or my wife with men or any training on what we were getting into could I have possibly known what it "needed to be?" Answer me that.

Just instinct!

Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<kMnUa.132964$sY2.59170@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>... Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> writes: In article <56904c48.0307251912.1bc7df6f@posting.google.com>, keelandra sislack <keelandrasislack@yahoo.com> wrote: Your immediate response about it being nonsense speaks volumes. It does? Let me quote you again -- > >You and your wife have set up your marriage the way that you need it > >to be. "set up" describes a conscious choice, a deliberate plan -- that's what I'm calling nonsense. Actually, I don't think "set up" implies a deliberate plan. I do think that Keelandra is probably right, and for better and worse, that's what we all do. We choose mates and styles of interacting them which fill some need of ours. How at age 22 without my ever having had any significant relationships with women or my wife with men or any training on what we were getting into could I have possibly known what it "needed to be?" Answer me that. Just instinct!

You're right Doug, I am not implying a "deliberate" plan. I am of the
school of thought that we are all where we are supposed to be for
whatever reason; like it or not. I also believe that there are no
mistakes.

Ted, you either subscribe to that theory or you live in the hell that
you describe with no way out.

keelandra sislack wrote: I am of the school of thought that we are all where we are supposed to be for whatever reason; like it or not. I also believe that there are no mistakes.

Come again? What do you mean? That this is the way it "has been ordained"
for all of us on this planet?

(if so, I think I understand what your point of view is, Keelandra)

In article <56904c48.0307262000.47375ee0@posting.google.com>, keelandra
sislack <keelandrasislack@yahoo.com> wrote:
You're right Doug, I am not implying a "deliberate" plan. I am of the school of thought that we are all where we are supposed to be for whatever reason; like it or not. I also believe that there are no mistakes.
Oh, and how did you arrive at such a view of how the universe works?
Ted, you either subscribe to that theory or you live in the hell that you describe with no way out.

I don't see what your previous statement has to do with this one.

Ted

Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message news:<270720031142335326%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com>... In article <56904c48.0307262000.47375ee0@posting.google.com>, keelandra sislack <keelandrasislack@yahoo.com> wrote: You're right Doug, I am not implying a "deliberate" plan. I am of the school of thought that we are all where we are supposed to be for whatever reason; like it or not. I also believe that there are no mistakes. Oh, and how did you arrive at such a view of how the universe works?

By keeping my eyes wise open, observing myself and those around me,
reading books and being conscious. You learn as much as you let
yourself learn. Ted, you either subscribe to that theory or you live in the hell that you describe with no way out. I don't see what your previous statement has to do with this one.

That doesn't surprise me. Another observation that I have made in
life is that there are those who make themselves victims and those
that refuse to be victims.

You claim to be on a spiritual journey; I'm wondering what that means
to you.

keelandra sislack wrote: Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message news:<270720031142335326%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com>... In article <56904c48.0307262000.47375ee0@posting.google.com>, keelandra sislack <keelandrasislack@yahoo.com> wrote: You're right Doug, I am not implying a "deliberate" plan. I am of the school of thought that we are all where we are supposed to be for whatever reason; like it or not. I also believe that there are no mistakes. Oh, and how did you arrive at such a view of how the universe works? By keeping my eyes wise open, observing myself and those around me, reading books and being conscious. You learn as much as you let yourself learn. Ted, you either subscribe to that theory or you live in the hell that you describe with no way out. I don't see what your previous statement has to do with this one. That doesn't surprise me. Another observation that I have made in life is that there are those who make themselves victims and those that refuse to be victims. You claim to be on a spiritual journey; I'm wondering what that means to you.

It means being a RV - rationalizing victim. (JMO)

Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote:


(snip)
If you are asserting that you and your wife didn't _make_ choices which resulting in you being where you are, then I don't believe you.

My mom always says "you know more than you think you know."

Freud went even further: "there are no accidents."

I wouldn't go as far as Freud, but I will say that until I faced up to
the reasons I chose to marry my ex, I was not able to enter a good
relationship. Blaming him didn't advance me any.

In article <56904c48.0307281824.23952bbf@posting.google.com>, keelandra
sislack <keelandrasislack@yahoo.com> wrote:
Have you ever been diagnosed with depression or anxiety? Have you ever taken meds? Maybe there is something going on inside of you that can be treated while working on the relationship and your journey?

Where out of left field does this come from?

As to victimhood, for there to be a victim there has to be a victor.
I don't see either in my situation. I feel stuck -- but not a victim.
I feel a prisoner, but I don't know who the jailer is. It's not my
wife -- she's not responsible for who she is. I definitely don't
like being where I am -- so I don't think it's me. Who do you think
it is?

(As to the spiritual journey, that may take awhile. Short letter and
all, you know.)

Ted

keelandra sislack wrote: Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message news:<280720031720039908%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com>... In article <56904c48.0307280748.fb0d9f@posting.google.com>, keelandra sislack <keelandrasislack@yahoo.com> wrote: You claim to be on a spiritual journey; I'm wondering what that means to you. If you want a serious answer to that please let me know. It'll take awhile. As I think I've written here before, the last time I sat down and told somebody what that journey has been like for the last seven years (it was six or so at the time) it took over two and a half hours -- and that made no mention of the issues in my marriage (whose relationship to the journey as a whole is still a mystery to me.) Ted I do want a serious answer, but don't feel compelled to give me the 2.5 hour response. A short outline would suffice. You know Ted, I have followed your saga for months now...or has it been years? I can't help but think that you need to be the center of attention. Since you are not at home, perhaps you come here for it? I don't think that this is the root of your troubles, nor will I attempt to say what I think that your troubles are. I do think you are comfortable in the victim role, whether it's a nice comfort or just a well known comfort. Again, it is not necessarily conscious. If it was umcomfortable enough to put you into motion, then I'll guess that you'd be moving. For now you are uncomfortable with discomfort but not enough to more than complain about it. I have been where you are Ted, not the same scenario, but living with the discomfort. Some of it is simply life. Some of it is choosing to stay in the muck. As many have said, if you make the decision to stay with your wife, you are simply going to have to accept her with all of her flaws. If you refuse to leave her, you have got to move on and let go of all of your expectations. I mean *all of them*.

He does not. He can continue to do what he is doing here.

Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> writes:
In article <56904c48.0307280748.fb0d9f@posting.google.com>, keelandra sislack <keelandrasislack@yahoo.com> wrote: You claim to be on a spiritual journey; I'm wondering what that means to you. If you want a serious answer to that please let me know.

I realize this isn't a democracy, but if we get to vote, I'll log a "no."

keelandrasislack@yahoo.com (keelandra sislack) writes:
Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message news:<280720031720039908%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com>... In article <56904c48.0307280748.fb0d9f@posting.google.com>, keelandra sislack <keelandrasislack@yahoo.com> wrote: You claim to be on a spiritual journey; I'm wondering what that means to you. If you want a serious answer to that please let me know. It'll take awhile. As I think I've written here before, the last time I sat down and told somebody what that journey has been like for the last seven years (it was six or so at the time) it took over two and a half hours -- and that made no mention of the issues in my marriage (whose relationship to the journey as a whole is still a mystery to me.) Ted I do want a serious answer, but don't feel compelled to give me the 2.5 hour response. A short outline would suffice. You know Ted, I have followed your saga for months now...or has it been years?

Heh. It just seems that way sometimes.

It's like the joke about quitting smoking. "you don't live longer, it
just _seems_ like it."