On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 05:49:32 GMT, Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com>
wrote:
In article <f0s1hv8gfii00qp4pe2sfadrqnef9q3nlq@4ax.com>, Empress Otkuwrote: Frankly, Cinderella's slipper will never be the same for me again. ;-)Like fortune cookies?Or Altoids? (now that's a *real* test)

You're on a roll tonight, aren't you?

Here's one:

The Stealth Condom: They'll never see you coming.

Hee.

~Empress

I've spent all afternoon steam-cleaning the carpeting. (roughly 1 PM
to 6 PM) because guests are coming next week. As I was almost
finished my wife said, "after all that you should be allowed to do
anything you want this evening." (OK, I'm not sure she said
"allowed" -- it could have been "able" or "deserve", but that's what
I heard.) Aside from the fact that there were still several chores
left, I do not think there is the remotest chance she'd approve of
either of the top two thoughts I have of what I'd really like to do.

Ted

Seeker wrote: I've spent all afternoon steam-cleaning the carpeting. (roughly 1 PM to 6 PM) because guests are coming next week. As I was almost finished my wife said, "after all that you should be allowed to do anything you want this evening." (OK, I'm not sure she said "allowed" -- it could have been "able" or "deserve", but that's what I heard.) Aside from the fact that there were still several chores left, I do not think there is the remotest chance she'd approve of either of the top two thoughts I have of what I'd really like to do. Ted

If either of them involved her, you might have had a shot at at least
negotiating something close to what you wanted if you had tried. At this
point it sounds like you have little to lose except martyrdom.

twoFive <twoFive25123atyahoo.com> wrote:
Seeker wrote: I've spent all afternoon steam-cleaning the carpeting. (roughly 1 PM to 6 PM) because guests are coming next week. As I was almost finished my wife said, "after all that you should be allowed to do anything you want this evening." (OK, I'm not sure she said "allowed" -- it could have been "able" or "deserve", but that's what I heard.) Aside from the fact that there were still several chores left, I do not think there is the remotest chance she'd approve of either of the top two thoughts I have of what I'd really like to do. Ted If either of them involved her, you might have had a shot at at least negotiating something close to what you wanted if you had tried. At this point it sounds like you have little to lose except martyrdom.

That's just what I thought when I read it. "Nothing to lose but your
martyrdom." LOL!

Herr Taurus wrote: On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 01:53:19 GMT, Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote: I've spent all afternoon steam-cleaning the carpeting. (roughly 1 PM to 6 PM) because guests are coming next week. As I was almost finished my wife said, "after all that you should be allowed to do anything you want this evening." (OK, I'm not sure she said "allowed" -- it could have been "able" or "deserve", but that's what I heard.) Aside from the fact that there were still several chores left, I do not think there is the remotest chance she'd approve of either of the top two thoughts I have of what I'd really like to do. Ted Murder and...what? I couldn't think of the 2nd one! lol

Murder and divorce?

keelandra sislack wrote: Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message news:<130720032053182741%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com>...I've spent all afternoon steam-cleaning the carpeting. (roughly 1 PMto 6 PM) because guests are coming next week. As I was almostfinished my wife said, "after all that you should be allowed to doanything you want this evening." (OK, I'm not sure she said"allowed" -- it could have been "able" or "deserve", but that's whatI heard.) Aside from the fact that there were still several choresleft, I do not think there is the remotest chance she'd approve ofeither of the top two thoughts I have of what I'd really like to do.Ted Is it a secret as to what those top two thoughts were? Did you at least take the opportunity to tell her what those two thoughts were? Or did you just stuff it and think about how rotten your life is? Hey, I'll tell you what! If you come over to my house and steam clean all of the carpet for 5 hours, I'll do whatever you want!!!

Keelandra,

Poor Ted is already having impure thoughts about the pharmacist and now
you've got him wondering how expensive a plane ticket and Rug Doctor
rental is in your part of the world.

When things had gotten a little lean between my wife and I, I wish I had
known that one possible secret to unlocking the passion within her was
clean carpets.

Does it matter what one wears while steam cleaning?

twoFive wrote: Seeker wrote: I've spent all afternoon steam-cleaning the carpeting. (roughly 1 PM to 6 PM) because guests are coming next week. As I was almost finished my wife said, "after all that you should be allowed to do anything you want this evening." (OK, I'm not sure she said "allowed" -- it could have been "able" or "deserve", but that's what I heard.) Aside from the fact that there were still several chores left, I do not think there is the remotest chance she'd approve of either of the top two thoughts I have of what I'd really like to do. Ted If either of them involved her, you might have had a shot at at least negotiating something close to what you wanted if you had tried. \
At this point it sounds like you have little to lose except martyrdom.

What makes you think he wants to lose that?

Emma Anne wrote: twoFive <twoFive25123atyahoo.com> wrote: Seeker wrote: I've spent all afternoon steam-cleaning the carpeting. (roughly 1 PM to 6 PM) because guests are coming next week. As I was almost finished my wife said, "after all that you should be allowed to do anything you want this evening." (OK, I'm not sure she said "allowed" -- it could have been "able" or "deserve", but that's what I heard.) Aside from the fact that there were still several chores left, I do not think there is the remotest chance she'd approve of either of the top two thoughts I have of what I'd really like to do. Ted If either of them involved her, you might have had a shot at at least negotiating something close to what you wanted if you had tried. At this point it sounds like you have little to lose except martyrdom. That's just what I thought when I read it. "Nothing to lose but your martyrdom." LOL!

Well, some things are precious in life, and you have to hold on to them, Emma.

Bill wrote: twoFive wrote: Seeker wrote: I've spent all afternoon steam-cleaning the carpeting. (roughly 1 PM to 6 PM) because guests are coming next week. As I was almost finished my wife said, "after all that you should be allowed to do anything you want this evening." (OK, I'm not sure she said "allowed" -- it could have been "able" or "deserve", but that's what I heard.) Aside from the fact that there were still several chores left, I do not think there is the remotest chance she'd approve of either of the top two thoughts I have of what I'd really like to do. If either of them involved her, you might have had a shot at at least negotiating something close to what you wanted if you had tried. At this point it sounds like you have little to lose except martyrdom. What makes you think he wants to lose that?

Perhaps it's the martyrdom, that sense of suffering, that
provides a sense of moral superiority? I've heard that
call myself but find it, well, unsatisfying.

However, I've seen people who seem very good at it since
it gets them _respect_ (or was that pity?).

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup@softhome.net | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
"Do these pants make my penis look small?"

"Seeker" <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message
news:130720032053182741%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com... I've spent all afternoon steam-cleaning the carpeting. (roughly 1 PM to 6 PM) because guests are coming next week. As I was almost finished my wife said, "after all that you should be allowed to do anything you want this evening." (OK, I'm not sure she said "allowed" -- it could have been "able" or "deserve", but that's what I heard.) Aside from the fact that there were still several chores left, I do not think there is the remotest chance she'd approve of either of the top two thoughts I have of what I'd really like to do. Ted

hehe one of them must be a strip joint(nudy bars:)

In article <3f1310ce$0$168$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>, twoFive wrote:
Poor Ted is already having impure thoughts about the pharmacist and now you've got him wondering how expensive a plane ticket and Rug Doctor rental is in your part of the world.

Ahem. My thoughts about her are perfectly pure. They just aren't
sanctioned!
And I have my own rug cleaner (we bought a Bissell many years ago).
Now, about that plane ticket...
When things had gotten a little lean between my wife and I, I wish I
hadknown that one possible secret to unlocking the passion within her wasclean carpets.
Hasn't workd for me.
Does it matter what one wears while steam cleaning?

Well, I was wearing the shortest shorts I have and when she was doing a
little vaccuuming before I got started with the full cleaning she was
in bra and panties.
Didn't make any difference.

Ted

In article <j6o6hv4adqcage7i6l91rf0r6ivkcrib56@4ax.com>, Herr Taurus
<gusaufdenkinder@hotmail.com> wrote:
People act differently when they're *100%* committed. Yer not, of course...and it probably shows.

100% committed to what?

Ted

In article <srs6hvgj8apkelb5oobaqauo4sf39kpv99@4ax.com>, Herr Taurus
<gusaufdenkinder@hotmail.com> wrote:
If you could only hear yourself like WE hear you.

OK, what *do* you hear?

Ted

Seeker wrote: Herr Taurus wrote: If you could only hear yourself like WE hear you. OK, what *do* you hear?

Someone who sounds a lot like me... without any puns
or other humor to diminish the sense of doom and gloom.

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup@softhome.net | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
"Do these pants make my penis look small?"

In article <slrnbh6vud.8ps.cupasoup@soup2nets.net.dhis.org>, Jack C
Lipton <cupasoup@softhome.net> wrote:
Someone who sounds a lot like me... without any puns or other humor to diminish the sense of doom and gloom.

Hmmm... you should read some of my private correspondence.
Someone just recently said I have a wicked sense of humor...

I guess I'll have to work harder at it here.
Did you hear the one about...

Oh, never mind. There aren't any new ones.

Ted

Seeker wrote: Jack C Lipton wrote: Someone who sounds a lot like me... without any puns or other humor to diminish the sense of doom and gloom. Hmmm... you should read some of my private correspondence. Someone just recently said I have a wicked sense of humor... I guess I'll have to work harder at it here. Did you hear the one about... Oh, never mind. There aren't any new ones.

"You... are the MS-DOS of evil: Only 640K, not evil enough!"

Are you having a bad here day?

Monday mourning: that sensation that your week-end was too
short by approximately 11.75 months.

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup@softhome.net | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
"Do these pants make my penis look small?"

In article <slrnbh726o.97n.cupasoup@soup2nets.net.dhis.org>, Jack C
Lipton <cupasoup@softhome.net> wrote:
Monday mourning: that sensation that your week-end was too short by approximately 11.75 months.

Now that was funny... (I actually took 3 hours sick time this morning
to sleep in I was so tired after the weekend. Just think how tired I
would have been had either of my fantasies come true!)

Ted

Seeker wrote: In article <f0s1hv8gfii00qp4pe2sfadrqnef9q3nlq@4ax.com>, Empress Otku wrote: Frankly, Cinderella's slipper will never be the same for me again. ;-) Like fortune cookies? Or Altoids? (now that's a *real* test)

Now that's odd. I'm not getting Empress's posts on either this or the other
newsserver I use. As far as I can tell she's the only one who isn't coming
through. I don't have any filters active so it can't be that. Is anyone else
not seeing her posts?

Tai

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 16:48:40 GMT, "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote:
Where does one go to get in on *these*conversations?

Check the cautions about marriage thread, around 7/9...

~Embarrassing myself again.

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 12:32:50 -0500, twoFive <twoFive25123atyahoo.com>
wrote:

<complimenting wifey>
And even if she didn't believe a single word, I still think the factthat I made the effort mattered.

Absolutely! I gained weight when I was pregnant the first time, so
much that it shocked me. It's very difficult to go from being a size
5 to being a whale, along with all the other emotions and the
adjustments one has to make.

The fact that my husband always complimented me, never said anything
about my weight, or if I asked, said he wasn't worried about it, will
always make him a hero in my book.

Even if I did want to divorce him over other stuff later...

~Empress

urf wrote: Where does one go to get in on *these* conversations? Empress Otku wrote: Seeker wrote: Frankly, Cinderella's slipper will never be the same for me again. ;-) Oh, never mind. There aren't any new ones. There are brunette jokes now. None of them are worth mentioning, of course...

Q: What is a brunette doing walking between two blondes?
A: Interpreting.

Q: What do you call it when a brunette bleaches her hair
blonde?
A: Artificial stupidity.

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup@softhome.net | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
"Do these pants make my penis look small?"

Bill <nowhere@earthlink.net> wrote:
Emma Anne wrote: twoFive <twoFive25123atyahoo.com> wrote: Seeker wrote:> I've spent all afternoon steam-cleaning the carpeting. (roughly 1 PM> to 6 PM) because guests are coming next week. As I was almost> finished my wife said, "after all that you should be allowed to do> anything you want this evening." (OK, I'm not sure she said> "allowed" -- it could have been "able" or "deserve", but that's what> I heard.) Aside from the fact that there were still several chores> left, I do not think there is the remotest chance she'd approve of> either of the top two thoughts I have of what I'd really like to do.>> Ted If either of them involved her, you might have had a shot at at least negotiating something close to what you wanted if you had tried. At this point it sounds like you have little to lose except martyrdom. That's just what I thought when I read it. "Nothing to lose but your martyrdom." LOL! Well, some things are precious in life, and you have to hold on to them, Emma.

Like grim death, sometimes!

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 18:49:06 GMT, cupasoup@softhome.net (Jack C
Lipton) wrote:
Q: What is a brunette doing walking between two blondes?A: Interpreting.Q: What do you call it when a brunette bleaches her hair blonde?A: Artificial stupidity.

Thank you, Jack. Those weren't too bad.

I was thinking more along the lines of:

Q: What do you call a guy dating a brunette?

A: A hostage.

;-)


~Empress

In article <urs1hv42o8rhc6oovmo6el9ooak2ngsjnd@4ax.com>, Empress Otku
wrote:
You're on a roll tonight, aren't you?

You better mark it on your calendar as a special day. It doesn't
happen very often. Sort of like my wife's orgasms.

Ted

In article <hh43hv4qqlegkqeamhu54moic1mlgp39r7@4ax.com>, Empress Otku
wrote:
~Embarrassing myself again.

What, you, embarrassed? Nah. Imossible.

Ted

In article <3f143ad7$0$164$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>, twoFive wrote:
What that tells me is that your wife doesn't think she's attractive, not that she doesn't want to been seen that way.

I don't know. I'll try some other approaches.

Ted

Seeker wrote: Empress Otku wrote: Ted is married to Jack! ~Sorry. Me too.

Sorry, I'm a little too picky, I prefer a mixed marriage.

Former President Clinton's definition of a "Mixed Marriage":
"A man and a woman who are not related."

(For those who didn't get it, recall his first Executive
Order *and* the state he was Governor of...)

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup@softhome.net | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
"Do these pants make my penis look small?"

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:37:36 -0700, Empress Otku wrote:
Absolutely! I gained weight when I was pregnant the first time, somuch that it shocked me. It's very difficult to go from being a size5 to being a whale, along with all the other emotions and theadjustments one has to make.The fact that my husband always complimented me, never said anythingabout my weight, or if I asked, said he wasn't worried about it, willalways make him a hero in my book.

Further evidence that people really do want to be lied to...

Kendricks wrote: Empress Otku wrote:Absolutely! I gained weight when I was pregnant the first time, somuch that it shocked me. It's very difficult to go from being a size5 to being a whale, along with all the other emotions and theadjustments one has to make.The fact that my husband always complimented me, never said anythingabout my weight, or if I asked, said he wasn't worried about it, willalways make him a hero in my book. Further evidence that people really do want to be lied to...

It's not a matter of lying, it's more a matter of reflecting
what's important to you; if you're shallow enough that your
appearance is the be-all and end-all of your existence then
of course there's a problem.

Age undermines physical beauty soon enough anyway.

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup@softhome.net | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
"Do these pants make my penis look small?"

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 23:28:03 GMT, Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com>
wrote:
In article <bf03md$9dqlf$1@ID-123442.news.uni-berlin.de>, Tai<tainuiti@yahoo.com> wrote: FWIW, I think he's right. However, you have such an enormous amount of work in front of you as a couple it'd be no wonder if you both spend a lot of time feeling discouraged.And so I'm thankful for the few voices of encouragement I do hear.What's also hard for me is that my wife has *no* encouraging voices tolisten to -- I know (because I've asked) that the only people she'd beat all likely to confide in (her sister and two sisters-in-law) shehasn't.Ted

Sad that you didn't list yourself as someone likely your wife would
confide in.

Looks like you're in a bit of a cycle that either of you aren't
willing to break. But chances are the more you reveal of yourself,
the more your wife would be willing to open up.

Think about it. This is how lasting friendships are made - I tell
something deep and painful, the other person then opens up with deep
and painful. Continue to keep your conversations at the surface
levels and you're never going to get deeper. Risk for risk.
Vulnerable for vulnerable. Encouragement for encourangement.

You've got absolutely nothing to lose - so why don't you just sh*t or
get off the pot? I don't get it.

(and yes, I've read far too much of all your blah blah blah issues)

<lurker>

shinypenny wrote: Jack - does this sound just like you? http://www.personalitypage.com/INFP_rel.html And your wife? http://www.personalitypage.com/INFJ_rel.html

We ran through the web-survey; I came up INFP, her INFJ.

Some things seem to make enough sense.

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup@softhome.net | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
"Do these pants make my penis look small?"

In article <oG6Ra.75475$Ph3.8042@sccrnsc04>, Doug Anderson
<ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote:
I think expressing resentment is a prerequisite for getting past it. Of course that doesn't mean that you and she _will_ get past them, but if you don't express them, you aren't likely to ever get past them.

OK -- I suspect what would really be good would be for her to do it all
at once, rather than now and then. I'm not sure she could, however.
When I was doing my first 4th step (writing down everything I resented,
feared, or felt guilty about) I explained what I was doing and she said
she could never do that. The mistake I may have made at that time was
listening to the advice that said you shouldn't tell your spouse your
4th step -- it probably would have gone a lot better then than now.
Again, this is only "funny" if you have some complicated definitionfor funny. It seems unsurprising to me that if you ask for moreaffection, she responds by expressing resentment about the causes that(she perceives) interfered with affection.Whether she's "right" or not.

You're right, "funny" isn't a very descriptive word. I found it
strange that if this is perhaps her longest resentment it seems to be
the one that took the longest to come out.

Ted

In article <ME6Ra.6271$wU5.5553@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, Amy Lou
<amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote:
If your wife is disbelieving of compliments about her physical attractiveness compliment something else about her that you find attractive. Something that she will believe. Her personality perhaps?

That's where it gets rough. I have to look very hard to find things
that I respond to positively, and even those are somewhat forced. She
is very dependable -- almost to a fault. (Never will a birthday or
anniversary anywhere in either of our families ever be forgotten.) She
is generous with charity. She has almost no prejudices. She is very
moral. She is frugal with money. She has a fantastic memory for
details. She is a good seamstress. She was very good with raising the
kids. She is a good, but not adventuresome, cook.

Yes, I didn't say much about her personality (whatever one means by
that.) I suppose at one point what was there was attractive to me, but
what I see now mostly isn't.

Ted

In article <c8cb5319.0307161207.2b1c4cfa@posting.google.com>,
shinypenny <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote:
Jack - does this sound just like you? http://www.personalitypage.com/INFP_rel.html And your wife? http://www.personalitypage.com/INFJ_rel.html Here is Ted's page, while we're at it: http://www.personalitypage.com/ENFP_rel.html Looks like he would make a perfect match with Mrs. Lipton!!!

Um, "the pharmacist" is an INFJ, by the way.
(not surprising to you, I"m sure.)

And my wife is an ISFJ
http://www.personalitypage.com/ISFJ_rel.html

Now, you've forgotten that when I met my wife I was an INTJ,
http://www.personalitypage.com/INTJ_rel.html
and I still show a lot of those characteristics when stressed, or, if
viewed positively, can call on them when needed.

(by the way, the woman I've called my soulfriend was also an ENFP,
although borderline on the I/E, F/T axes)

(thanks for the links -- I'd had that site, but seemed
to have lost it.)

Ted

In article <slrnbhbg3i.ith.cupasoup@soup2nets.net.dhis.org>, Jack C
Lipton <cupasoup@softhome.net> wrote:
We ran through the web-survey; I came up INFP, her INFJ. Some things seem to make enough sense.

At least you differ in only one letter! We difer in three. How strong
were your I's, by the way? -- my wife's is off the scale (i.e., if it
were possible to be any more introverted on the test, she would be, and
admits it.)

Ted

Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> writes:
In article <oG6Ra.75475$Ph3.8042@sccrnsc04>, Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote: I think expressing resentment is a prerequisite for getting past it. Of course that doesn't mean that you and she _will_ get past them, but if you don't express them, you aren't likely to ever get past them. OK -- I suspect what would really be good would be for her to do it all at once, rather than now and then. I'm not sure she could, however. When I was doing my first 4th step (writing down everything I resented, feared, or felt guilty about) I explained what I was doing and she said she could never do that. The mistake I may have made at that time was listening to the advice that said you shouldn't tell your spouse your 4th step -- it probably would have gone a lot better then than now.Again, this is only "funny" if you have some complicated definitionfor funny. It seems unsurprising to me that if you ask for moreaffection, she responds by expressing resentment about the causes that(she perceives) interfered with affection.Whether she's "right" or not. You're right, "funny" isn't a very descriptive word. I found it strange that if this is perhaps her longest resentment it seems to be the one that took the longest to come out.

No, that's what I'm saying. You have it backwards. It takes _more_
courage (and for that matter, intimacy and security) to bring up one's
deepest and most serious resentments than to bring up shallow ones.

"Seeker" <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in Yes, I didn't say much about her personality (whatever one means by that.)

But you did. She is dependable and generous. And she is good with money, the
kids, memory, sewing, and cooking. Plenty of things there to compliment! I
think you are just in a mindset of looking at the negative things. There are
positive things out there if you set your mind to noticing them. Why don't
you pick up a book about positive thinking? It is so nice to be able to see
the positive things. Life is so much nicer.

Amy

In article <KvlRa.7558$wU5.56@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, Amy Lou
<amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote:
She is dependable and generous. And she is good with money, the kids, memory, sewing, and cooking. Plenty of things there to compliment! I think you are just in a mindset of looking at the negative things.

After 37 years it's pretty hard to find creative ways of saying thank
you for washing the clothes this week, buying and sending the birthday
cards, or cooking macaroni and cheese from scratch. It also gets
pretty boring.

Ted

In article <up8bhvcihkug3lvauo6qiqhr7dm0gdb1hr@4ax.com>, Elle
<elle@suspicion.co.uk> wrote:
Either you're being freudian or you got lucky last time...

Not lucky and probably not even freudian -- just poor choice of words.

Ted

In article <d99bhvgkd7oguocpio5ummummpto3ahrch@4ax.com>, Elle
<elle@suspicion.co.uk> wrote:
Sad that you didn't list yourself as someone likely your wife would confide in.
For the most part she does. It's her I can't confide in and it's gone
from bad to worse. My point is that she has *no* friends close enough
that she would feel comfortable talking about something like this with.
That strikes me as both sad and unhealthy.
Looks like you're in a bit of a cycle that either of you aren't willing to break. But chances are the more you reveal of yourself, the more your wife would be willing to open up.
"chances" aren't good enough. Chances are if you buy a lottery ticket
you'll have a better chance of winning than if you don't.
Think about it. This is how lasting friendships are made - I tell something deep and painful, the other person then opens up with deep and painful. Continue to keep your conversations at the surface levels and you're never going to get deeper.

She doesn't want to get deeper. She calls it prying.

Risk for risk. Vulnerable for vulnerable. Encouragement for encourangement. You've got absolutely nothing to lose - so why don't you just sh*t or get off the pot? I don't get it. (and yes, I've read far too much of all your blah blah blah issues)

If you have you know what I have to lose.

Ted

If you have you know what I have to lose.

What *do* you have to lose, Ted? I haven't
seen much of anything in your postings that
lead me to believe that you have much to
lose at all that couldn't be replaced by
a housekeeper/assistant. Or maybe you're
talking about what you would lose spiri-
tually/emotionally/whatever you want to
call it or you even could be talking about
losing a *possibility*. Because I definitely
don't see what you think you would be losing
as far as your relationship/marriage are
concerned.

Tracey

Tracey wrote:If you have you know what I have to lose. What *do* you have to lose, Ted? I haven't seen much of anything in your postings that lead me to believe that you have much to lose at all that couldn't be replaced by a housekeeper/assistant. Or maybe you're talking about what you would lose spiri- tually/emotionally/whatever you want to call it or you even could be talking about losing a *possibility*. Because I definitely don't see what you think you would be losing as far as your relationship/marriage are concerned. Tracey

This is a great question. I want to hear the answer to this too.

Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> writes:
In article <sk4r1m6qt6.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu>, Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote: No, that's what I'm saying. You have it backwards. It takes _more_ courage (and for that matter, intimacy and security) to bring up one's deepest and most serious resentments than to bring up shallow ones. But it didn't sound particularly deep or serious -- just very old. She only brought it up after I'd complained about her not being affectionate. (sort of, "and who do you think is to blame" kind of response.)

If you say so. It sounds serious to me. Often people are too
insecure to bring up serious stuff directly, and will only bring it up
as a reaction (defensively). That doesn't mean it isn't serious.

In article <3F1616FD.1020504@aol.com>, Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com>
wrote:
What *do* you have to lose, Ted? I haven't seen much of anything in your postings that lead me to believe that you have much to lose at all that couldn't be replaced by a housekeeper/assistant. Or maybe you're talking about what you would lose spiri- tually/emotionally/whatever you want to call it or you even could be talking about losing a *possibility*. Because I definitely don't see what you think you would be losing as far as your relationship/marriage are concerned.

I'd say there are several things I could lose if full honesty goes
badly.

One is some contentment in knowing that I haven't made any irreversable
mistakes -- that I am trying to do the right thing and haven't
precipitated some kind of a disaster without very carefully considering
the risks.
Given that divorce is not an option I must avoid us mistakingly getting
into a state where we simply can't stand each other but must stay with
each other. We are not at that state now.

The second is, yes, closing off all possibility of things being better.

But mostly I'd feel guilty as hell and couldn't live with myself.

Ted

In article <sXpRa.68292$OZ2.13059@rwcrnsc54>, Doug Anderson
<ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote:
If you say so. It sounds serious to me. Often people are too insecure to bring up serious stuff directly, and will only bring it up as a reaction (defensively). That doesn't mean it isn't serious.

Worth pursuing. Thanks for the thought.

Ted

In article <E1qRa.26$OM3.17@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, Amy Lou
<amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote:
Ah but isn't that what it is all about? Finding ways to keep our marriages alive?

If it's almost dead it's going to take more than a few "thank you's" or
"that was nice" or "let's do that again" and the like.

Ted

Doug Anderson wrote: Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> writes: In article <3F1616FD.1020504@aol.com>, Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote: What *do* you have to lose, Ted? I haven't seen much of anything in your postings that lead me to believe that you have much to lose at all that couldn't be replaced by a housekeeper/assistant. Or maybe you're talking about what you would lose spiri- tually/emotionally/whatever you want to call it or you even could be talking about losing a *possibility*. Because I definitely don't see what you think you would be losing as far as your relationship/marriage are concerned. I'd say there are several things I could lose if full honesty goes badly. One is some contentment in knowing that I haven't made any irreversable mistakes -- that I am trying to do the right thing and haven't precipitated some kind of a disaster without very carefully considering the risks. Given that divorce is not an option I must avoid us mistakingly getting into a state where we simply can't stand each other but must stay with each other. We are not at that state now. The second is, yes, closing off all possibility of things being better. But mostly I'd feel guilty as hell and couldn't live with myself.

BUT - are you (really) living with yourself now? Is that called "living"?
I don't think you have much (anything?) to lose at this stage, and possibly,
just possibly, a LOT to gain. It's your call.....

>I couldn't live with myself behaving the way you arecurrently behaving.

I'm with Doug here. (Scoot over, you're hogging the
couch!!)

Tracey

Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com> writes:
I couldn't live with myself behaving the way you arecurrently behaving. I'm with Doug here. (Scoot over, you're hogging the couch!!)

Plenty of room on the couch for all us couch potatoes watchng Ted play
out his hand!

Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com> writes:
snip

Gosh, you said that so much better than I ever could!

>One is some contentment in knowing that I haven't madeany irreversable mistakes --

Well, I gotta differ with you here. If your outside
relationships aren't in the category of 'possible
irreversible mistakes', I don't know what is or should
be.
that I am trying to do the right thing

And, again, I'm not sure how your continued relationships
with other women have been rationalized as the 'right
thing.'
and haven't precipitated some kind of a disaster withoutvery carefully considering the risks.
Given that divorce is not an option

And that's the rub, isn't it? You've ruled out divorce
for religious/emotional/financial/moral/whatever reasons,
yet those same reasons don't apply when it comes to
falling/being in love with other women. Personally, I
believe that, especially in situations like this, the
ends don't justify the means and that's what it seems
like you're doing here. 'I can't/won't divorce my wife
('the end') and the only way I can handle NOT divorcing
her is to get what I need or at least a portion of what
I need from other women ('the means').
I must avoid us mistakingly getting into a state wherewe simply can't stand each other but must stay with eachother. We are not at that state now.

You aren't? I dunno know about that. You two apparently
aren't at the 'I can't stand the sight of you' yet, but
there's not a whole lot that you've said that indicates
that you are enjoying each other. Lordy, Ted, your list
of the positives that you see in your wife almost had me
in tears when I thought about how I would feel if that
was all my husband could think of when asked to list the
positives about me. It was so...passionless, so unemo-
tional, so devoid of anything that said you actually
*like* the woman.
The second is, yes, closing off all possibility of thingsbeing better.

There is that possibility. What is *also* a possibility
that you don't seem willing to entertain is that your
inability/unwillingness to be totally truthful with your
wife is also closing off all possibility of things getting
better. And what is *also* a possibility is that your
continuing method of 'escapism' is closing off all possi-
bility of things getting better.
But mostly I'd feel guilty as hell and couldn't live withmyself.

Now, let me see if I've got this right. You'd feel guilty
as hell and couldn't live with yourself if you were totally
truthful and your wife didn't take that truth well, but
you *don't* feel guilty as hell and can't live with yourself
while you're actually doing and feeling the things that
you can't tell your wife? Excuse me for a moment until I
stop boggling.

This is a rationalization that I just don't get and I can't
fathom how a person who seems to be concerned with doing the
'right and moral' thing can rationalize it this way.

You know what, Ted, I have a very difficult time reading
and, thus, thinking, about your situation. A part of it
(a *big* part) is that I see a lot of similarities in your
rationalizations and your actions to parts of my own marriage.
Another part is your 'escapist' mentality. Still another
part is the seeming unacceptance of the fact that your wife
has much of a say in what your relationship is or will be.
And yet another part is your tendency to discount what is
pretty sound advice for are, to me, spurious reasons.

Tracey

Doug Anderson wrote: Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com> writes: snip Gosh, you said that so much better than I ever could!

Yeah, that was a *great* post. What do you think Ted will do with it though?
:-(

Doug Anderson wrote: Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com> writes: snip Gosh, you said that so much better than I ever could!

No decision is a decision (meaning, no changes). The bottom line is, that's
what Ted obviously *chooses* to do. To maintain stasis, and philosophize and
rationalize and intellectualize everything. The only problem is, it solves
nothing.

Amy Lou wrote: "Seeker" <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message news:170720030027107005%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com... In article <E1qRa.26$OM3.17@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, Amy Lou <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote: Ah but isn't that what it is all about? Finding ways to keep our marriages alive? If it's almost dead it's going to take more than a few "thank you's" or "that was nice" or "let's do that again" and the like. True but does that mean you shouldn't bother? Amy

It's just easier not to.

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 02:52:28 GMT, Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com>
wrote:
In article <KvlRa.7558$wU5.56@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, Amy Lou<amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote: She is dependable and generous. And she is good with money, the kids, memory, sewing, and cooking. Plenty of things there to compliment! I think you are just in a mindset of looking at the negative things.After 37 years it's pretty hard to find creative ways of saying thankyou for washing the clothes this week, buying and sending the birthdaycards, or cooking macaroni and cheese from scratch.

Why does it have to be creative? If you like her macaroni, say so.
It also gets pretty boring.

It's not boring to hear.

Wouldn't you like to be thanked periodically for something you do
routinely? Would it bore you?

- Randy

"Seeker" <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message
news:160720032355131709%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com... In article <3F1616FD.1020504@aol.com>, Tracey <rbrancher2@aol.com> wrote: I'd say there are several things I could lose if full honesty goes badly. One is some contentment in knowing that I haven't made any irreversable mistakes -- that I am trying to do the right thing and haven't precipitated some kind of a disaster without very carefully considering the risks.

*The Event Horizon* The point at which anything falling into a Black Hole
can not come back.

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> writes:
That was a beautifully thought out reply Tracey. Absolute wisdom and insight. It is evident that Jack lives a fantasy.

Ted. Not Jack, Ted.

In article <9eecnQvaBOqhx4qiXTWJig@comcast.com>, urf <urf@nospam.com>
wrote:
*The Event Horizon* The point at which anything falling into a Black Hole can not come back.

Yup. And what's odd is that the black hole is my wife -- or, more
accurately, what our marriage could turn into -- and not any of the
"other women." While I know that getting more deeply involved with,
say, "the pharmacist" than I am is a dead-end because it couldn't be a
long-term relationship, and so I can anticipate the pain of it's ending
(or, yes, of my being rejected were I to seriously pursue it), the fear
of that is much, much less than the fear of what could go wrong in my
marriage if I take the wrong next step in trying to better it.

Ted

In article <HpKRa.107222$Io.9162906@newsread2.prod.itd.earthli nk.net>,
Bill <nowhere@earthlink.net> wrote:
I'm not sure TED will ever live to see any impact. Just the "Neverending Story....."

You don't think if I stay in the middle of the road and don't get out
of the way of the car with the blinding headlights that I jumped in
front of before it could put on its brakes I wouldn't notice it?

Ted

I'm getting senile.

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mbJRa.76952$OZ2.13689@rwcrnsc54... "urf" <urf@nospam.com> writes: That was a beautifully thought out reply Tracey. Absolute wisdom and insight. It is evident that Jack lives a fantasy. Ted. Not Jack, Ted.

It's all just your fantasy Ted.

"Seeker" <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message
news:180720030030140210%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com... In article <9eecnQvaBOqhx4qiXTWJig@comcast.com>, urf <urf@nospam.com> wrote: *The Event Horizon* The point at which anything falling into a Black
Hole can not come back. Yup. And what's odd is that the black hole is my wife -- or, more accurately, what our marriage could turn into -- and not any of the "other women." While I know that getting more deeply involved with, say, "the pharmacist" than I am is a dead-end because it couldn't be a long-term relationship, and so I can anticipate the pain of it's ending (or, yes, of my being rejected were I to seriously pursue it), the fear of that is much, much less than the fear of what could go wrong in my marriage if I take the wrong next step in trying to better it. Ted

urf wrote: Doug Anderson wrote: urf wrote: That was a beautifully thought out reply Tracey. Absolute wisdom and insight. It is evident that Jack lives a fantasy. Ted. Not Jack, Ted. I'm getting senile.

Get in line.

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup@softhome.net | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
"Do these pants make my penis look small?"

Herr Taurus wrote: Jack C Lipton wrote: urf wrote: Doug Anderson wrote:> urf wrote:>> That was a beautifully thought out reply Tracey.>> Absolute wisdom and insight.>>>> It is evident that Jack lives a fantasy.>> Ted. Not Jack, Ted. I'm getting senile. Get in line. You seem to get in trouble, Jack, even when yer behavin'!!

Hey, that's not so bad, I learn stuff I never wanted to know
that way... :-) :-) :-)

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup@softhome.net | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
"Do these pants make my penis look small?"