How did you know your spouse was 'the one'? [Archive]

Randy Poe

07-07-2003, 06:14 PM

On Mon, 07 Jul 2003 17:14:40 GMT, doug <dugster77@earthlink.net>
wrote:
When you met your spouse, was it immediately obvious that he or shewas that 'special' person?

We figured out in putting together notes that we had been in the same
gathering several months before the party we remember as our first
"meeting". But that first time, neither of us made any impression on
the other at all.

Second time, we started talking and basically never stopped to this
day. And that was 1980. I knew before the week was out that I couldn't
imagine life without her. Like a lunatic, I proposed. Like a lunatic,
she accepted. It would be another 2 years before we actually married,
but neither of us ever looked back.
Or did it take time and you graduallyrealized this was the person for you?

Took time. All of 5 days from party to proposal.
Do you still feel the same waytoday?

Oh yeah.

Funny thing was, at the time there was somebody else who I figured I
was going to marry. But I felt nothing for her, except gratitude that
she seemed to like me. I figured whatever this "love" stuff was, it
wasn't something that was ever going to hit me, and what I needed was
somebody whose company I just sort of didn't mind. Except more and
more I *did* mind. And felt terrible about it because she really was a
bright, interesting, and generally nice person.

In the midst of that, WHAM. And I can't even describe it as passion or
physical lust in the way the women's magazines claim everybody starts
out. Those things have grown and deepened with time. It was just that
I literally couldn't imagine not being with her once I'd spent a week
with her. Beats me how I could have been so certain, since I really
didn't know her, or her me, and we're still learning stuff all the
time about each other. But I was.

- Randy

Temily

07-07-2003, 09:42 PM

"Cristabel" said: I knew Squire was special. For one, he didn't like sports. Most of his friends are gay (it takes a pretty secure het guy to have gay friends). He loved animals. He's a reading man, and one thing that really clued me in
that he was a keeper was that his car radio was tuned into CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation). He liked literature and theatre, *but* was a science major. Plus he looked like Dennis Quaid. :-) Do I still feel the same way? I
cannot do otherwise.

Aww..that's gorgeous Cristabel ;-) Gives me hope..

Temily

Tai

07-07-2003, 10:12 PM

doug wrote: When you met your spouse, was it immediately obvious that he or she was that 'special' person? Or did it take time and you gradually realized this was the person for you? Do you still feel the same way today? -doug, a single guy

When I met my husband I was going out with someone else. We were introduced
by a mutual friend in a tutorial we'd all been assigned to and I just
thought he was a pleasant chap with a nice smile. What you could see of it,
of course, in those days he had a red beard.....

We used to chat and argue politics and gradually he moved into the group of
girls and guys I hung out with at the time. The members of the group were
all going out with other people but we seemed to just gravitate towards each
other in the student union building and on weekends. After a while I broke
up with my bf and started going out with someone else for a short time. It
wasn't until some of us went skiing over a long weekend that he and I
connected at a deeper level but from then on we were stuck to each other.

We share our sense of humour and our values and we mesh on an intellectual
level. I always find him interesting and thought provoking. He's also
probably the most decent human being I've ever met. I fell more and more in
love with him as I recognised the breadth of his strengths and his loving
heart.

I love my husband even more today (25 years later) than I did then. He's
the father of my children, my life's companion and he feels like a part of
me.

Tai
(But goodness knows what he sees in me... ;) )

Temily

07-07-2003, 10:27 PM

"Tai" said:
We share our sense of humour and our values and we mesh on an intellectual level. I always find him interesting and thought provoking. He's also probably the most decent human being I've ever met. I fell more and more
in love with him as I recognised the breadth of his strengths and his loving heart. I love my husband even more today (25 years later) than I did then.
He's the father of my children, my life's companion and he feels like a part of me. Tai (But goodness knows what he sees in me... ;) )

Tai..that is so beautiful...reading that. What he sees in you..well, is
pretty obvious. Oh - I feel so teary...some people have such 'together'
lives....and i feel overjoyed to know there *are* people out there that can
make 'it' work!

Temily

Tai

07-07-2003, 10:45 PM

Seeker wrote:

Nope -- I do not *feel* that way. But now I do *iknow* that she is "the" person for me. Big important difference.

As the (potential) light of your life or the cross that is yours to bear?

Tai

Tai

07-07-2003, 10:58 PM

WhansaMi wrote:

<snip> Over time, we started talking on the phone, spending 3 to 5 hours a night talking. We spent a LOT of time talking about what we wanted/needed out of a relationship and our strengths and weaknesses. I've always believed that people are most compatible when their pathologies mesh, so I was very upfront about all my faults, and insisted that he be too. We talked about everything from finances, to pets, to which way the toilet paper should roll! We talked about how we express our anger and how we like to be treated when we are anger or sad, or other negative emotions. Over those weeks, I grew to believe this was a person I could live with.

I think an online 'courtship' would suit me - if I was ever on the loose
again, that is!

I've met a few people now via the internet, or rather, via usenet, and
they've all been exactly as they've portrayed themselves. In the case of a
romantic attachment I'd always need the face-to-face meetings to determine
whether the chemistry would work but friendship seems easy enough to
establish, particularly after years of communicating with someone.

Tai

Temily

07-07-2003, 11:08 PM

"Tai" said: Yeah, it's my big bum.... lol

ROTFLMAO!
Just so long as you realise we occasionally fight and misunderstand each other, too.

If you didn't..i'd be worried :-)

Temily

WhansaMi

07-07-2003, 11:09 PM

Tai wrote:I think an online 'courtship' would suit me - if I was ever on the looseagain, that is!I've met a few people now via the internet, or rather, via usenet, andthey've all been exactly as they've portrayed themselves. In the case of aromantic attachment I'd always need the face-to-face meetings to determinewhether the chemistry would work but friendship seems easy enough toestablish, particularly after years of communicating with someone.Tai

Online courtships have their advantages. You do TALK to one another. Think
about typical dates: go to a movie, go to dinner.... relatively little time is
spent talking about intimate matters. Online, you can ONLY talk. :-) You can
get to the heart of a person more quickly, I think.

I've now met, in person, about 25 people I've first encountered on the Web.
While a couple have been different than I expected, I'd say that over 90% of
them are precisely as I expected.

Having said that, however, I've mentioned in here before that my BIL was
totally snookered by a woman who lied about everything from her age to her
marital status. She was intent on deception, and the Web makes that easier to
pull off. So, I can't say it isn't without dangers.

Sheila

Temily

07-07-2003, 11:41 PM

THE LION KING

Capitol Theatre, Sydney
Opening 16th October 2003.

Are you going to it?

Temily

urf

07-08-2003, 06:16 AM

For me it was love at first sight. I told her so in our first
phone conversation. My father recognized it too. He
predicted our marriage to my mother on first meeting
her. We were married less than 6 months after we first met.
That was 1966. I am amazed at how much she means to me
and how wise I was to know it then.

I have always trusted myself and my instincts.

"doug" <dugster77@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3F09AA16.207152FD@earthlink.net... When you met your spouse, was it immediately obvious that he or she was that 'special' person? Or did it take time and you gradually realized this was the person for you? Do you still feel the same way today? -doug, a single guy

Stephanie S

07-08-2003, 08:45 AM

"doug" <dugster77@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3F09AA16.207152FD@earthlink.net... When you met your spouse, was it immediately obvious that he or she was that 'special' person? Or did it take time and you gradually realized this was the person for you? Do you still feel the same way today? -doug, a single guy

In our case, the only thing that was obvious within the first 15 minutes was
crazy monkey lust. We then saw each other constantly, or as constantly as we
could for people living 200+ miles away. I think we knew we were together
for good long before we gave voice to any such thing.

Do we still feel crazy monkey lust? Most of the time. Just kidding. I feel
totally differently about him today then I did when we met. We have gone
from partying nuts through trying times into trust to what I guess I can
call true love. Being with him is worth whatever it takes to make it so.

S

doug

07-08-2003, 10:24 AM

Tara D wrote:
On Mon, 07 Jul 2003 17:14:40 GMT, doug <dugster77@earthlink.net> wrote:When you met your spouse, was it immediately obvious that he or shewas that 'special' person? Or did it take time and you graduallyrealized this was the person for you? Do you still feel the same waytoday? -doug, a single guy It took some time. If he hadn't asked me for a second date, I probably would have never thought of him again (no immediate sparks, but no warning signals either). Over the next few weeks I began to appreciate what I was willing to risk losing. He fell faster than I did. I can still see the look on his face when I mentioned that my relationships either last two weeks or they last years. He did the mental calculations and announced that we had been dating for 6 weeks at that time. That was 8 years ago. Yes, I still feel he's the right guy, and I'm damn glad he took the risk of trying for a second date. Tara

Were there non-verbal signs that he was falling for you?
ie look on his face, tone of voice, body language, etc.

doug

07-08-2003, 10:44 AM

Doug's replies inserted:

Randy Poe wrote:
On Mon, 07 Jul 2003 17:14:40 GMT, doug <dugster77@earthlink.net> wrote:When you met your spouse, was it immediately obvious that he or shewas that 'special' person? We figured out in putting together notes that we had been in the same gathering several months before the party we remember as our first "meeting". But that first time, neither of us made any impression on the other at all. Second time, we started talking and basically never stopped to this day. And that was 1980. I knew before the week was out that I couldn't imagine life without her. Like a lunatic, I proposed. Like a lunatic, she accepted. It would be another 2 years before we actually married, but neither of us ever looked back.Or did it take time and you graduallyrealized this was the person for you? Took time. All of 5 days from party to proposal. Do you still feel the same waytoday? Oh yeah. Funny thing was, at the time there was somebody else who I figured I was going to marry. But I felt nothing for her, except gratitude that she seemed to like me. I figured whatever this "love" stuff was, it wasn't something that was ever going to hit me, and what I needed was somebody whose company I just sort of didn't mind. Except more and more I *did* mind. And felt terrible about it because she really was a bright, interesting, and generally nice person.

Very interesting. A year or so ago, I dated a woman for five months.
It was a similar experience. She was nice, very intelligent, and we
loved unusual films. We clicked on some levels, but we didn't
communicate that well. Too many long silent pauses. In general
it was a luke warm chemistry. She realized before me that this
was just not hot enough for either of us. So it was a case of
settling for a nice person.
In the midst of that, WHAM. And I can't even describe it as passion or physical lust in the way the women's magazines claim everybody starts out. Those things have grown and deepened with time. It was just that I literally couldn't imagine not being with her once I'd spent a week with her. Beats me how I could have been so certain, since I really didn't know her, or her me, and we're still learning stuff all the time about each other. But I was. - Randy

After that 'nice' person, I encountered a woman who just
blew me away with an instant empathy that made me feel
comfort and excitement and looking into her eyes was
...just amazingly different from anything else before. Like
you said, it wasn't a physical lust thing, but something deeper.

So there you have two contrasting experiences. I think it may
be a fairly common thing for couples to get married to that
'nice' woman or 'nice' guy because it's easy to do and it may
actualy be the best they have experienced in a number of years.
The timing may be right, but is the combo right? Lowering
one's standards and settling for a partner might partially
explain the high divorce rate. I'm just theorizing.

Once you meet that person who touches your soul like
a lighting bolt, it's rather difficult to go with a more mediocre
relationship. It's sad that many people haven't experienced
that WHAM that you speak of. -doug

doug

07-08-2003, 10:47 AM

Cristabel wrote:
"doug" <dugster77@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:3F09AA16.207152FD@earthlink.net... When you met your spouse, was it immediately obvious that he or she was that 'special' person? Or did it take time and you gradually realized this was the person for you? Do you still feel the same way today? -doug, a single guy I knew Squire was special. For one, he didn't like sports. Most of his friends are gay (it takes a pretty secure het guy to have gay friends). He loved animals. He's a reading man, and one thing that really clued me in that he was a keeper was that his car radio was tuned into CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation). He liked literature and theatre, *but* was a science major. Plus he looked like Dennis Quaid. :-) Do I still feel the same way? I cannot do otherwise. Cristabel

What about the chemistry? Are you similar in many ways? Do you
two communicate well? How do you handle arguments or
disagreements?

doug

07-08-2003, 10:50 AM

Amy D wrote:
When you met your spouse, was itimmediately obvious that he or she wasthat 'special' person? Or did it take timeand you gradually realized this was theperson for you? Do you still feel the sameway today? -doug, a single guy I knew immediately. And due to circumstances, we lived together immediately. :) He knew immediately but fought it tooth and nail for 3 years. :) I still know -- as does he.....we're in it for the long haul. amy

Amy, how did you know? Was it a non-verbal thing? What were
the signs. Mostly physical chemistry? I like to hear HOW you knew
immediately. -doug

doug

07-08-2003, 11:00 AM

urf wrote:
For me it was love at first sight. I told her so in our first phone conversation. My father recognized it too. He predicted our marriage to my mother on first meeting her. We were married less than 6 months after we first met. That was 1966. I am amazed at how much she means to me and how wise I was to know it then. I have always trusted myself and my instincts.

As someone who has experienced love at first sight or
a soulmate connection, I'm always interested in hearing
what it was like for someone else. When you met her, what
was your experience like? Did you feel instant empathy?
In what ways did you click? -doug

shinypenny

07-08-2003, 04:41 PM

doug <dugster77@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<3F09AA16.207152FD@earthlink.net>... When you met your spouse, was it immediately obvious that he or she was that 'special' person? Or did it take time and you gradually realized this was the person for you? Do you still feel the same way today? -doug, a single guy

Hi doug,

Not sure if this is what you were looking for, but when I met my first
husband (in a bar), I had this instant, magical feeling that he was
"the one." I really thought I had some sort of vision or message from
God at the moment we met, a message to "pay attention to this one" and
"give him a chance." Normally, he wouldn't have been my type at all.
But I did agree to give him my phone number, believing I should trust
my instincts.

We went out on a few dates, then his job took him out-of-state for
several months during which time we talked on the phone every day.
When he returned, we immediately got engaged and were married within
another year.

The marriage lasted 7 years; I ended it. Do I think he was the right
person for me? I guess he was the person I was meant to be with those
7 years, the person with whom I was meant to have children, and the
person I was meant, ultimately, to divorce. I guess I still feel that
it all happened exactly as it did for a reason.

As for my current SO, there was a definite spark between the two of us
from the moment we met, and the first date just stoked the fire some
more! Initially, I was dating around. One night around that time, I
was feeling really low and I prayed to God to please send me an
angel. At that precise moment, my now-SO called me on the phone just
to say hi!

Okay, maybe that sounds hokey... but it's true, and yes, he is like my
angel in a lot of ways.

jen

Cristabel

07-08-2003, 04:52 PM

> What about the chemistry? Are you similar in many ways? Do you two communicate well? How do you handle arguments or disagreements?

All these questions!

The chemistry is still there. Just last week a woman in a grocery store
asked if we were newlyweds. We've known each other for 12 years. I still
love to hold his hand, and I look forward to being one of those sweet old
couples you see: matching jackets, matching canes, still holding hands.

In some ways, we are very private. When I was about to lose my job last
year, I was *terrified* to tell him because I didn't want to disappoint him.
When I finally did confess, he was upset, but he was upset because I
*hadn't* reached out to him for comfort. That was a great moment. Not
being used to unconditional love from anyone, I was delighted that this
failing was not going to cost me my Squire.
As for inner life, it seems to be me who does the maintenance work, but I
think it's more of a personality thing than a male thing. I can't read
minds, and I don't expect him to, either.

We have no arguments about money, which makes sense, seeing as we haven't
any. He smokes, which is something I have sniped at since our acquaintance
began. I can tell all you non-smokers out there: Nagging doesn't work! If
it did, His Lordship would have quit a dozen years ago.
Most of our disagreements are over minor things: who spilled the
Worcestershire sauce, when shall we clip the bird's wings, things of that
nature. Usually we just give each other reproachful looks, a little
childish crowing "I was right! You were wrong!", and get on with it.

Sounds minor, but we really haven't been tested with anything major in a
decade, so how canI know what will happen if something truly awful happens?
Don't let it become the elephant in the corner, and put each other first.

Cristabel. Forgive and forget.

Tai

07-08-2003, 05:24 PM

Temily wrote: THE LION KING Capitol Theatre, Sydney Opening 16th October 2003. Are you going to it?

Nope. The commute is a little long....... (Melb - Syd)

Tai

Tai

07-08-2003, 05:38 PM

WhansaMi wrote:

<snip>
Having said that, however, I've mentioned in here before that my BIL was totally snookered by a woman who lied about everything from her age to her marital status. She was intent on deception, and the Web makes that easier to pull off. So, I can't say it isn't without dangers.

Yes, you're right. I think you need to see a love interest in the company of
his family and friends to help safeguard against this sort of 'personality
fraud'. But someone intent upon deception will probably succeed for a time
whatever was the initial medium for meeting. Hard luck on your BIL, though!

Tai

Tara D

07-08-2003, 05:50 PM

On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 17:24:31 GMT, doug <dugster77@earthlink.net>
wrote:
Were there non-verbal signs that he was falling for you?ie look on his face, tone of voice, body language, etc.

Probably, but I'm not that good at reading them. :-) He would tell me
things several months later.

A friend mentioned that when Blue was out buying a card for our first
Valentine's day (which was about 6 weeks into our relationship), he
was completely lost. I really didn't take much notice of the comment
until months later we were camping and he asked me to get something
out of his glove compartment. Dozens of Valentine's cards later, I
found what he was looking for. Apparently he just kept buying cards
so that he could have the 'right' one.

But I guess the 'big' moment for me was the night before I was due to
meet his whole family at Easter dinner. We were talking about it and
it became apparent that I was going to be the first girlfriend he had
ever brought home to meet Mom. At 35, that says more anything.

Tara

doug

07-08-2003, 09:30 PM

shinypenny wrote:
doug <dugster77@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<3F09AA16.207152FD@earthlink.net>... When you met your spouse, was it immediately obvious that he or she was that 'special' person? Or did it take time and you gradually realized this was the person for you? Do you still feel the same way today? -doug, a single guy Hi doug, Not sure if this is what you were looking for, but when I met my first husband (in a bar), I had this instant, magical feeling that he was "the one." I really thought I had some sort of vision or message from God at the moment we met, a message to "pay attention to this one" and "give him a chance." Normally, he wouldn't have been my type at all. But I did agree to give him my phone number, believing I should trust my instincts. We went out on a few dates, then his job took him out-of-state for several months during which time we talked on the phone every day. When he returned, we immediately got engaged and were married within another year. The marriage lasted 7 years; I ended it. Do I think he was the right person for me? I guess he was the person I was meant to be with those 7 years, the person with whom I was meant to have children, and the person I was meant, ultimately, to divorce. I guess I still feel that it all happened exactly as it did for a reason. As for my current SO, there was a definite spark between the two of us from the moment we met, and the first date just stoked the fire some more! Initially, I was dating around. One night around that time, I was feeling really low and I prayed to God to please send me an angel. At that precise moment, my now-SO called me on the phone just to say hi! Okay, maybe that sounds hokey... but it's true, and yes, he is like my angel in a lot of ways. jen

Hi jen,
Interesting name...
Yeah, that's exactly what I'm looking for, if I'm looking for
something in particular and I may be. Those supernatural or
metaphysical qualities are something I've experienced and
your example is just another instance of a kind of religious
experience that many people talk about when they reflect on
what it was like to meet their significant other.
Having your prayer answered like that, must've felt
amazing at the time. Thanks for your story. It looks like good
'chemistry' can happen almost immediately with many couples.
-doug

Seeker

07-08-2003, 09:56 PM

In article <3F0B042C.77A9FAE6@earthlink.net>, doug
<dugster77@earthlink.net> wrote:
Ted, can you elaborate?

No. That's private between my wife and me.

Ted

Seeker

07-08-2003, 09:58 PM

In article <c8cb5319.0307081541.5e10aed2@posting.google.com>,
shinypenny <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote:
Okay, maybe that sounds hokey... but it's true, and yes, he is like my angel in a lot of ways.

Doesn't sound hokey to me...

Did you ever get any similar "sign" that the divorce was the right
thing to do?

Ted

Amy D

07-08-2003, 10:29 PM

>Amy, how did you know? Was it anon-verbal thing? What were the signs.Mostly physical chemistry? I like to hearHOW you knew immediately. -doug

I don't even KNOW how I knew. :) I had just come off of a major hiatus
from life -- a "soul-searching" phase. <Actually, it was hitchhiking
across the US for 9 months while finding "me" after many failed
relationships and a failed sense of self> I was quite "scary" to him --
I was too intense. :)

People can call this what they want....but I was 10 weeks pregnant when
I met him. He swore for a couple years the only reason I was with him
is because I wanted someone to support the kid. HE knows better. Most
of the times I swear he loves that child more than he loves "our" child.

I just knew the moment I saw him. We were "doomed" for each other. :)
We wouldn't have it any other way now.

Oh yeah -- the physical aspect was totally intense. :) But I knew
before that.

amy

doug

07-09-2003, 12:24 AM

Seeker wrote:
In article <3F0B042C.77A9FAE6@earthlink.net>, doug <dugster77@earthlink.net> wrote: Ted, can you elaborate? No. That's private between my wife and me. Ted

Oops. I'm sorry.
How do you now know the she is *the* one for you?
A feeling? Intuition? Something that can't be put into words?
A high degree of empathy? -doug

doug

07-09-2003, 12:27 AM

What went sour after 7 years? That was surprising to hear
after such a magical beginning. -doug

Amy Lou

07-09-2003, 02:56 AM

"doug" <dugster77@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3F09AA16.207152FD@earthlink.net... When you met your spouse, was it immediately obvious that he or she was that 'special' person?

As a matter of fact on first meeting I thought my DH was a bit of a dork.
Same thing with my first DH.

Or did it take time and you gradually realized this was the person for you?

Yep it took a while. It was not until a physical touch started the chemical
sparks flying. Same thing happened with my first DH too.

Do you still feel the same way today?

Well the honeymoon is long over and the physical sparks are not the same but
I probably love him more and more each year. I feel the same but its not
really the same. Its hard to explain. Love changes I suppose. It matures, or
ages just like we do.

Ive heard people say they fall in love at first sight with their children
too but again that didnt happen with me - it took a few days at least.

Amy

Tai

07-09-2003, 03:29 AM

Amy Lou wrote: "doug" <dugster77@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:3F09AA16.207152FD@earthlink.net... When you met your spouse, was it immediately obvious that he or she was that 'special' person? As a matter of fact on first meeting I thought my DH was a bit of a dork. Same thing with my first DH. Or did it take time and you gradually realized this was the person for you? Yep it took a while. It was not until a physical touch started the chemical sparks flying. Same thing happened with my first DH too.

For me it was if I really saw my husband for the first time and the rush was
physical as well as emotional.
Do you still feel the same way today? Well the honeymoon is long over and the physical sparks are not the same but I probably love him more and more each year. I feel the same but its not really the same. Its hard to explain. Love changes I suppose. It matures, or ages just like we do.

I think it's become *richer* for me, for want of a better word. There's so
much more behind love now. Does that make sense to you?
Ive heard people say they fall in love at first sight with their children too but again that didnt happen with me - it took a few days at least.

Me too. I was in love with the idea of them at the beginning but grew to
love them as individuals as I knew more of them. However, since it didn't
seem to matter what personality they had I doubt whether falling in love
with one's children works the same way as falling in love with a potential
mate!

Tai

audrey in velvet

07-09-2003, 04:19 AM

Randy Poe <rpoePA@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<a66kgvs4jjufitmap7vckpeu6ndlnfei78@4ax.com>... On Mon, 07 Jul 2003 17:14:40 GMT, doug <dugster77@earthlink.net> wrote:When you met your spouse, was it immediately obvious that he or shewas that 'special' person? We figured out in putting together notes that we had been in the same gathering several months before the party we remember as our first "meeting". But that first time, neither of us made any impression on the other at all.

ohhhh.....
Second time, we started talking and basically never stopped to this day. And that was 1980. I knew before the week was out that I couldn't imagine life without her. Like a lunatic, I proposed. Like a lunatic, she accepted. It would be another 2 years before we actually married, but neither of us ever looked back.

ohhhh....
Or did it take time and you graduallyrealized this was the person for you? Took time. All of 5 days from party to proposal.

ohhh....
Do you still feel the same waytoday? Oh yeah.

ohhhh....
Funny thing was, at the time there was somebody else who I figured I was going to marry. But I felt nothing for her, except gratitude that she seemed to like me. I figured whatever this "love" stuff was, it wasn't something that was ever going to hit me, and what I needed was somebody whose company I just sort of didn't mind. Except more and more I *did* mind. And felt terrible about it because she really was a bright, interesting, and generally nice person.

that girl, eh?
In the midst of that, WHAM. And I can't even describe it as passion or physical lust in the way the women's magazines claim everybody starts out. Those things have grown and deepened with time. It was just that I literally couldn't imagine not being with her once I'd spent a week with her. Beats me how I could have been so certain, since I really didn't know her, or her me, and we're still learning stuff all the time about each other. But I was.

why'd you spend a week without her? was it your choice of hers?
- Randy

sounds so romantic! the way you met seems so surreal...

audrey

Anastasia

07-09-2003, 08:02 AM

"Amy Lou" <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:<BuROa.5048$oN.210296@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>... "doug" <dugster77@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:3F09AA16.207152FD@earthlink.net... When you met your spouse, was it immediately obvious that he or she was that 'special' person? As a matter of fact on first meeting I thought my DH was a bit of a dork. Same thing with my first DH.

So it wasn't love at first sight for you. Have you ever experienced
that by the way?

I hope your second DH wasn't the rebound guy. Your situation reminds
me a bit of when my brother met his wife. He wasn't too keen on her
either at first sight, and had some superficial complaints about
something or another about the way she dressed, looked, her face
structure, etc...but I thought she was cute and she seemed really
sweet to me. (Maybe she was trying to impress me? I knew when I met
her that she had a crush on him.)

I asked him, Hey, why don't you go out with her? At first he seemed
surprised that I had even suggested that, but later I think he
gradually fell in love with her to the point that he would defend her
even when he knew that she was wrong. In all honesty, I think that's
love.
Or did it take time and you gradually realized this was the person for you?

I think for me personally that there has to be a balance of a
physical, emotional, intellectual, psychological and spiritual
bond/connection for me to be completely happy and to believe that
person is *the one* for me. Sometimes, you can be physically attracted
to a man, but find it frustrating if you can't stay up and talk to him
all night like you might've had with a previous boyfriend who was more
eloquent, witty and knew how to push all your buttons at once. But
that previous boyfriend might've not been the one for you because for
one reason or another, he was unreliable, unstable, he took you for
granted and he never was loyal or considerate of your feelings. But
you still look back and think that somehow he *understood* you, he
*knew* what you were thinking before you thought it and knew how to
make you laugh, and maybe you miss that. You miss having someone be in
tune with you psychologically and intellectually, but that's not
enough to maintain a relationship. I speak from my own experience. You
may become frustrated with your husband because he doesn't listen
sometimes or a plethora of other mundane reasons, but no relationship
is ever perfect. Even in the situation with two soulmates who are
completely in sync with each other, the relationship will have to
survive necessary obstacles that are practical, unromantic and
oftentimes ugly... 'K, enuff with my rant...let's move on:
Yep it took a while. It was not until a physical touch started the chemical sparks flying. Same thing happened with my first DH too.

This reminds me of a girl I know who met her first boyfriend on the
internet. She was used to interacting with people on screen only in
which she didn't have to immediately deal with people's perceptions of
her, subtle body language, and all those kinds of communication of a
non-verbal nature which I think she wasn't all too comfortable with.
Her favorite method of communicating was through words only, and so I
think then the internet was a great resource for attempting to connect
with other people who thought alike and were used to expressing
themselves through written language. I think although that this is a
great method of communication that it is ultimately not akin to
*talking* or simply being with someone. The interesting thing (and
possibly annoying as well?) about people is that they mainly
communicate in a non-verbal manner. Often it is their tone of voice,
their mannerisms, their words in context that reveals what they are
truly saying as opposed to merely analyzing their speech patterns. For
me, as well, I think that I sometimes get overwhelmed with too much
information when I am confronted face to face with someone, but
ultimately having only an intellectual and emotional bond with someone
on the internet does not equal the kind of bond one develops when
living with that same person day in and day out.

Where is this story going? I think the girl found out eventually that
man she met initially on the internet might have seduced her
intellectually, emotionally and even physically after they met (ie,
she thought he was a bit dorky looking as well when she first saw him
as opposed to imagining what he looked like online) and had spend
hours conversing in written language but that ultimately he wasn't the
kind of man who he portrayed himself to be and also, someone whom she
knew she could never be in an LTR with. Yet at times, I think he is
someone that she occassionally thinks about when things aren't going
so well in her current relationship because there is something about
the manner in which he *knew* her in that he knew how to move her
through *verbal language,* which is what primarily turns her on.
Do you still feel the same way today? Well the honeymoon is long over and the physical sparks are not the same but I probably love him more and more each year. I feel the same but its not really the same. Its hard to explain. Love changes I suppose. It matures, or ages just like we do.

I think that's a very mature statement. Aside from the other more (and
I dare to say) idealistic views on this board regarding love and
relationships, this is probably the most realistic. We should have a
new category, let's separate the *idea of love* derived from the
movies and the kind of love present in *daily existence.*
Ive heard people say they fall in love at first sight with their children too but again that didnt happen with me - it took a few days at least. Amy

As you must already know, having children changes people, maybe for
better or worse. Perhaps your father wanted to tell you things that he
never did, and maybe he was never the ideal father you wanted but that
doesn't mean you have to follow in his footsteps.

Anastasia

shinypenny

07-09-2003, 08:53 AM

doug <dugster77@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<3F0BC392.516F600A@earthlink.net>... What went sour after 7 years? That was surprising to hear after such a magical beginning. -doug

The magical beginning obscured the fact that we ultimately were not
very compatible, in many, important ways.

Perhaps if we hadn't gotten married so fast I would have figured that
out. Perhaps not. Perhaps the whole marriage and subsequent divorce
was simply meant to be and happen exactly as it happened. He and I
both grew and learned a lot from the process.

Therefore, I don't believe that a magical beginning is any guarantee
that a marriage will succeed. Unless, perhaps, you redefine your
concept of success. Our marriage may have failed but its failure did
serve a purpose in the grand scheme of things.

Does that make any sense?

jen

shinypenny

07-09-2003, 10:02 AM

Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message news:<080720032358577558%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com>... In article <c8cb5319.0307081541.5e10aed2@posting.google.com>, shinypenny <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote: Okay, maybe that sounds hokey... but it's true, and yes, he is like my angel in a lot of ways. Doesn't sound hokey to me... Did you ever get any similar "sign" that the divorce was the right thing to do? Ted

Yes, a series of signs at every single step along the way, Ted, and
throughout the unraveling process, which took years.

Those were dark times and very often I'd fine myself at a cross roads
not knowing which way to proceed. In my desparation, I'd take a deep
breath, open my heart, and hand it all over to God. I'd pray to Him
and ask Him to give me a sign, some kind of guidance, to show me His
will.

And I did get signs - oh boy, did I get signs! - Someone would call.
Or a letter would come in the mail. Or certain songs would play on the
radio. Or a complete stranger would appear in my life, and say just
the right thing. I believe there are signs all around us - angels,
too - or normal people through which God works His will. We only need
open up our hearts and notice the signs.

There were times when I'd pray and I'd get no sign at all. Those were
the times when my ego was getting in the way, when I was praying for
the sign *I* wanted to see, not necessarily what was God's will for
me.

It's a long and involved story, but looking back I can't help but
wonder that I was not deliberately put in my ex's life in order to
cause him pain and force him to learn a lesson. A lesson I am positive
he would *never* have learned had I stayed with him. Had we stayed
married, there would not have been the necessary dynamite to explode
him into such dramatic change.

jen

doug

07-09-2003, 10:13 AM

shinypenny wrote:
Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message news:<080720032358577558%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com>... In article <c8cb5319.0307081541.5e10aed2@posting.google.com>, shinypenny <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote: Okay, maybe that sounds hokey... but it's true, and yes, he is like my angel in a lot of ways. Doesn't sound hokey to me... Did you ever get any similar "sign" that the divorce was the right thing to do? Ted Yes, a series of signs at every single step along the way, Ted, and throughout the unraveling process, which took years. Those were dark times and very often I'd fine myself at a cross roads not knowing which way to proceed. In my desparation, I'd take a deep breath, open my heart, and hand it all over to God. I'd pray to Him and ask Him to give me a sign, some kind of guidance, to show me His will. And I did get signs - oh boy, did I get signs! - Someone would call. Or a letter would come in the mail. Or certain songs would play on the radio. Or a complete stranger would appear in my life, and say just the right thing. I believe there are signs all around us - angels, too - or normal people through which God works His will. We only need open up our hearts and notice the signs. There were times when I'd pray and I'd get no sign at all. Those were the times when my ego was getting in the way, when I was praying for the sign *I* wanted to see, not necessarily what was God's will for me. It's a long and involved story, but looking back I can't help but wonder that I was not deliberately put in my ex's life in order to cause him pain and force him to learn a lesson. A lesson I am positive he would *never* have learned had I stayed with him. Had we stayed married, there would not have been the necessary dynamite to explode him into such dramatic change. jen

jen, that's very interesting. Thanks for sharing it. I also often see
those 'signs', probably not as often as you, but I'm never quite
sure what they mean. I call it synchronicity as defined by Carl Jung.
You're lucky you can undrstand what the signs mean for you.
I have trouble knowing the significance.

I spent a week working with a married woman. All of the signs
seemed to be there. Mind reading. Time standing still, a deep
comfort and empathy, but the bottom line is that she is a
married woman. End of story. So what were all of those
signs for? To rattle my cage and open my heart to love,
in general? I'll assume that. -doug

doug

07-09-2003, 10:20 AM

shinypenny wrote:
doug <dugster77@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<3F0BC392.516F600A@earthlink.net>... What went sour after 7 years? That was surprising to hear after such a magical beginning. -doug The magical beginning obscured the fact that we ultimately were not very compatible, in many, important ways. Perhaps if we hadn't gotten married so fast I would have figured that out. Perhaps not. Perhaps the whole marriage and subsequent divorce was simply meant to be and happen exactly as it happened. He and I both grew and learned a lot from the process. Therefore, I don't believe that a magical beginning is any guarantee that a marriage will succeed. Unless, perhaps, you redefine your concept of success. Our marriage may have failed but its failure did serve a purpose in the grand scheme of things. Does that make any sense? jen

That makes perfect sense to me. In the grand scheme, maybe a
short term marriage was what you both needed to grow. Maybe
life is all about growth. Just as the body goes through a cycle of
growth, maybe the soul also needs to grow and that may require
some growing pains. You can look back at your first girlfriend or
boyfriend and say it ended in failure, but maybe it was just a
part of life's growing process, a kind of learning.

I read a book about those relationships that start with a
magical love at first sight kind of connection and interestingly
the divorce stats are much lower than the nat'l average. 75%
remain together, compared with the nat'l average of 50%. -doug

22Ted

07-09-2003, 12:35 PM

shinypenny wrote:
<snip> It's a long and involved story, but looking back I can't help but wonder that I was not deliberately put in my ex's life in order to cause him pain and force him to learn a lesson. A lesson I am positive he would *never* have learned had I stayed with him. Had we stayed married, there would not have been the necessary dynamite to explode him into such dramatic change.

I'm not trying to pick on your beliefs here but doesn't that contradict
one of the things the God was supposed to have given us? - Free will?

One explanation I've heard for why a "good" God would allow all the bad
things that happen in the world is that he/she simply has nothing to do
with them. He/she gave us free will and with that gift we are free to
mess our lives and the lives of the others if we choose to.

I'm not the most religious person in the world by any stretch, but even
when I was a stronger believer, the idea that God would "make" us choose
a certain spouse wouldn't have sit right with me.

If he/she could and did influence our lives that way, what's the point
of living them? At that point God is living our lives for us.

jen

shinypenny

07-09-2003, 02:56 PM

doug <dugster77@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<3F0C4CBA.4DFD0DA1@earthlink.net>... shinypenny wrote: Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message news:<080720032358577558%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com>... In article <c8cb5319.0307081541.5e10aed2@posting.google.com>, shinypenny <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote: > Okay, maybe that sounds hokey... but it's true, and yes, he is like my > angel in a lot of ways. Doesn't sound hokey to me... Did you ever get any similar "sign" that the divorce was the right thing to do? Ted Yes, a series of signs at every single step along the way, Ted, and throughout the unraveling process, which took years. Those were dark times and very often I'd fine myself at a cross roads not knowing which way to proceed. In my desparation, I'd take a deep breath, open my heart, and hand it all over to God. I'd pray to Him and ask Him to give me a sign, some kind of guidance, to show me His will. And I did get signs - oh boy, did I get signs! - Someone would call. Or a letter would come in the mail. Or certain songs would play on the radio. Or a complete stranger would appear in my life, and say just the right thing. I believe there are signs all around us - angels, too - or normal people through which God works His will. We only need open up our hearts and notice the signs. There were times when I'd pray and I'd get no sign at all. Those were the times when my ego was getting in the way, when I was praying for the sign *I* wanted to see, not necessarily what was God's will for me. It's a long and involved story, but looking back I can't help but wonder that I was not deliberately put in my ex's life in order to cause him pain and force him to learn a lesson. A lesson I am positive he would *never* have learned had I stayed with him. Had we stayed married, there would not have been the necessary dynamite to explode him into such dramatic change. jen jen, that's very interesting. Thanks for sharing it. I also often see those 'signs', probably not as often as you, but I'm never quite sure what they mean. I call it synchronicity as defined by Carl Jung. You're lucky you can undrstand what the signs mean for you. I have trouble knowing the significance. I spent a week working with a married woman. All of the signs seemed to be there. Mind reading. Time standing still, a deep comfort and empathy, but the bottom line is that she is a married woman. End of story. So what were all of those signs for? To rattle my cage and open my heart to love, in general? I'll assume that. -doug

Yup, probably. :-)

Are you familiar with temperament theory? I'm betting you are an
NF/Idealist, as am I. I wouldn't want to be any other type, but
Idealists can tend to find this sort of "soul connection" quickly and
frequently. When this happens, I've learned that it pays to *try* and
keep my head about me. Just because I feel such a connection doesn't
always mean it is practical or realistic, much less good for me.
Sometimes it is, many times it isn't. Often, I learn something from
these relationships. Always, I end up with a deep and abiding
friendship.

With that said, I wouldn't want to marry someone with whom I didn't
feel some sort of chemistry. The weird (sad?) thing is, with my first
marriage, I had this premonition, this synchronous sign from up above,
and yet, I did not have that overwhelming sweep-me-off-my-feet
chemistry, much less a mind-reading soul connection sort of thing: FAR
from it!!! That shoulda told me something right there. But I had just
come out of a series of painful relationships that had all started
with the "soul connection" thing, and so I reasoned a lack of it was a
good thing.

jen

Doug Anderson

07-09-2003, 03:29 PM

Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> writes:
In article <3f0c6eab$0$162$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>, twoFive wrote: 'm not trying to pick on your beliefs here but doesn't that contradict one of the things the God was supposed to have given us? - Free will? One explanation I've heard for why a "good" God would allow all the bad things that happen in the world is that he/she simply has nothing to do with them. He/she gave us free will and with that gift we are free to mess our lives and the lives of the others if we choose to. I'm not the most religious person in the world by any stretch, but even when I was a stronger believer, the idea that God would "make" us choose a certain spouse wouldn't have sit right with me. If he/she could and did influence our lives that way, what's the point of living them? At that point God is living our lives for us. "twoFive" -- you are bringing up one of the oldest spiritual mysteries -- how can an all-powerful God be present and active in the world and yet free will and evil exist? (Have you ever read the book of Job?)

Actually it doesn't become a mystery unless you also assume that god
is benevolentt and all powerful. _Then_ it becomes a mystery.
In some ways your answer is the easiest and most comfortable one -- if God is an absent God who takes no interest in our lives, plays no role in them, has no affect on the course of history, then there is no problem. And there is no reason to cry out, as people have done for generations, "why?" It is easy to make the problem go away by denying reality. It is harder to accept that we simply don't have the answer. The reason why I find the book of Job so powerful is because Job knew that God could have prevented the calamaties that befell him and that there was no justifiable reason why He shouldn't have.

This is why discussions about religion so often can go nowhere. "The
ways of god are beyond our comprehension" is _always_ available as an
answer to any perceived mystery or inconsistency, and doesn't allow
for much of a followup.

doug

07-09-2003, 08:19 PM

Anastasia wrote:
Yep it took a while. It was not until a physical touch started the chemical sparks flying. Same thing happened with my first DH too. This reminds me of a girl I know who met her first boyfriend on the internet. She was used to interacting with people on screen only in which she didn't have to immediately deal with people's perceptions of her, subtle body language, and all those kinds of communication of a non-verbal nature which I think she wasn't all too comfortable with. Her favorite method of communicating was through words only, and so I think then the internet was a great resource for attempting to connect with other people who thought alike and were used to expressing themselves through written language. I think although that this is a great method of communication that it is ultimately not akin to *talking* or simply being with someone. The interesting thing (and possibly annoying as well?) about people is that they mainly communicate in a non-verbal manner. Often it is their tone of voice, their mannerisms, their words in context that reveals what they are truly saying as opposed to merely analyzing their speech patterns. For me, as well, I think that I sometimes get overwhelmed with too much information when I am confronted face to face with someone, but ultimately having only an intellectual and emotional bond with someone on the internet does not equal the kind of bond one develops when living with that same person day in and day out. Where is this story going? I think the girl found out eventually that man she met initially on the internet might have seduced her intellectually, emotionally and even physically after they met (ie, she thought he was a bit dorky looking as well when she first saw him as opposed to imagining what he looked like online) and had spend hours conversing in written language but that ultimately he wasn't the kind of man who he portrayed himself to be and also, someone whom she knew she could never be in an LTR with. Yet at times, I think he is someone that she occassionally thinks about when things aren't going so well in her current relationship because there is something about the manner in which he *knew* her in that he knew how to move her through *verbal language,* which is what primarily turns her on.

I'm glad you said this. It's important. Non-verbal communication is
subtle, powerful, and reveals a lot about a potential partner. You can
make a statement and SEE her reaction, which can tell you a lot.
With this woman I was 'in-sync' with, half of the interaction was
non-verbal, and sometimes there was just no need for words.
We were just really comfortable with each other, ...just existing
together, as weird as that sounds. -doug

Virginia

07-09-2003, 08:32 PM

Still Haven't figured out if he's the one

doug wrote: When you met your spouse, was it immediately obvious that he or she was that 'special' person? Or did it take time and you gradually realized this was the person for you? Do you still feel the same way today? -doug, a single guy

Seeker

07-09-2003, 08:49 PM

In article <c8cb5319.0307091356.4388563b@posting.google.com>,
shinypenny <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote:
Idealists can tend to find this sort of "soul connection" quickly and frequently.

Shhhhh .... don't give away our NF secret. blessing Or is it a curse?

(Of course, when I met my wife I was an INTJ, so there was no soul
connection and I hadn't the foggiest idea of what such a thing would
be.)

Ted (ENFP)

Seeker

07-09-2003, 08:52 PM

In article <kk8yr7gwpm.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu>, Doug Anderson
<ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote:
Actually it doesn't become a mystery unless you also assume that god is benevolentt and all powerful. _Then_ it becomes a mystery.

Doug -- when it is only an intellectual problem that's all it is -- a
fun topic for clever debaters. It becomes a true mystery when it
stares you in the face.

Ted

doug

07-09-2003, 09:49 PM

Virginia wrote:
Still Haven't figured out if he's the one

How long have you known him?
doug wrote: When you met your spouse, was it immediately obvious that he or she was that 'special' person? Or did it take time and you gradually realized this was the person for you? Do you still feel the same way today? -doug, a single guy

--
If the music itself is all jammed together like sardines in a tin can,
you'll have hell and a half, getting it to sound like porpoises
on vacation, going out for a group leap. -alrich

doug

07-09-2003, 10:13 PM

shinypenny wrote:
doug <dugster77@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<3F0C4CBA.4DFD0DA1@earthlink.net>... shinypenny wrote: Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message news:<080720032358577558%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com>... > In article <c8cb5319.0307081541.5e10aed2@posting.google.com>, > shinypenny <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > Okay, maybe that sounds hokey... but it's true, and yes, he is like my > > angel in a lot of ways. > > Doesn't sound hokey to me... > > Did you ever get any similar "sign" that the divorce was the right > thing to do? > > Ted Yes, a series of signs at every single step along the way, Ted, and throughout the unraveling process, which took years. Those were dark times and very often I'd fine myself at a cross roads not knowing which way to proceed. In my desparation, I'd take a deep breath, open my heart, and hand it all over to God. I'd pray to Him and ask Him to give me a sign, some kind of guidance, to show me His will. And I did get signs - oh boy, did I get signs! - Someone would call. Or a letter would come in the mail. Or certain songs would play on the radio. Or a complete stranger would appear in my life, and say just the right thing. I believe there are signs all around us - angels, too - or normal people through which God works His will. We only need open up our hearts and notice the signs. There were times when I'd pray and I'd get no sign at all. Those were the times when my ego was getting in the way, when I was praying for the sign *I* wanted to see, not necessarily what was God's will for me. It's a long and involved story, but looking back I can't help but wonder that I was not deliberately put in my ex's life in order to cause him pain and force him to learn a lesson. A lesson I am positive he would *never* have learned had I stayed with him. Had we stayed married, there would not have been the necessary dynamite to explode him into such dramatic change. jen jen, that's very interesting. Thanks for sharing it. I also often see those 'signs', probably not as often as you, but I'm never quite sure what they mean. I call it synchronicity as defined by Carl Jung. You're lucky you can undrstand what the signs mean for you. I have trouble knowing the significance. I spent a week working with a married woman. All of the signs seemed to be there. Mind reading. Time standing still, a deep comfort and empathy, but the bottom line is that she is a married woman. End of story. So what were all of those signs for? To rattle my cage and open my heart to love, in general? I'll assume that. -doug Yup, probably. :-) Are you familiar with temperament theory? I'm betting you are an NF/Idealist, as am I. I wouldn't want to be any other type, but Idealists can tend to find this sort of "soul connection" quickly and frequently. When this happens, I've learned that it pays to *try* and keep my head about me.

What is this NF/Idealist thing? -doug

twoFive

07-10-2003, 12:54 AM

In article <090720031726180055%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com>,
Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote:
In article <3f0c6eab$0$162$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>, twoFive wrote: 'm not trying to pick on your beliefs here but doesn't that contradict one of the things the God was supposed to have given us? - Free will? One explanation I've heard for why a "good" God would allow all the bad things that happen in the world is that he/she simply has nothing to do with them. He/she gave us free will and with that gift we are free to mess our lives and the lives of the others if we choose to. I'm not the most religious person in the world by any stretch, but even when I was a stronger believer, the idea that God would "make" us choose a certain spouse wouldn't have sit right with me. If he/she could and did influence our lives that way, what's the point of living them? At that point God is living our lives for us. "twoFive" -- you are bringing up one of the oldest spiritual mysteries -- how can an all-powerful God be present and active in the world and yet free will and evil exist? (Have you ever read the book of Job?) In some ways your answer is the easiest and most comfortable one -- if God is an absent God who takes no interest in our lives, plays no role in them, has no affect on the course of history, then there is no problem. And there is no reason to cry out, as people have done for generations, "why?"

When I was pretty young I read the bible from cover to cover. The only
thing that really has stuck with me 20+ years later is that God went
through quite a personality change between the old and new testaments.

More recently I read a book called something like "Why bad things happen
to good people" which I'm guessing you've also read. The book of Job is
featured heavily in the book.

In any case, I don't think free will implies an aloof God. For example
there are a number of very important people in my life who are important
to me and may even influence my decisions, -but they don't make them for
me.

It is easy to make the problem go away by denying reality. It is harder to accept that we simply don't have the answer. The reason why I find the book of Job so powerful is because Job knew that God could have prevented the calamaties that befell him and that there was no justifiable reason why He shouldn't have. I know for certain from the evidence of my own eyes and ears that God is a very present and active participant in this world. I also know all those times He certainly seems absent, neglectful, and aloof. I can't really reconcile that. I just have to accept it as something beyond my understanding. I do find the mystery of grace a little more understandable if I use Thomas Merton's metaphor of the cosmic dance -- that God is our dancing partner (something we're not very good at), sometimes directing us where we are to go, at times firmly, at other times lightly, sometimes near, sometimes far, sometimes in step with us, sometimes not -- but always wanting to draw us closer. And picking us up when we fall down.

Do I know for certain that God put Jen and her ex together? No -- but I have no doubt it was possible and some sense when I read what she wrote that indeed that is what happened.

This is what I have a problem with. Why attribute their relationship to
God? Jen and her ex were a bad match. The marriage was a painful
experience for Jen and the ending of the marriage was a painful
experience for her ex. Being reasonable people they've made changes so
that they don't end up making the same mistakes again. They may be
better people for having gone through that bad experience. That's called
learning.

What if she and her ex had ended up permanently scarred?. Would God
still have been responsible for their relationship? Just because it ends
well does not mean it's the work of God. By the same token we should be
willing to acknowledge when we've made a mistake and not call it "God's
will" when something doesn't go the way we wanted.

I've missed some of your posts in recent months, but I get the
impression that you feel that God meant for you to be with your wife and
continues to want you to be married to her. I'm not sure what the
experiences were that lead you to believe that but I wonder if by not
being willing to admit that you made a mistake 37 years ago, you are
standing in the way of your own, and your wife's, happiness.

-twofive

Doug Anderson

07-10-2003, 01:01 AM

twoFive <twoFile25123at@yahoo.com> writes:
I've missed some of your posts in recent months, but I get the impression that you feel that God meant for you to be with your wife and continues to want you to be married to her.

He hasn't quite said this, but I have the same impression as you.
I'm not sure what the experiences were that lead you to believe that but I wonder if by not being willing to admit that you made a mistake 37 years ago, you are standing in the way of your own, and your wife's, happiness.

Well, although I'm willing to forget about his wife whose happiness is
her own responsibility (yes, Sheila, I believe that too), I wonder
this too.

shinypenny

07-10-2003, 08:41 AM

twoFive <twoFive25123atyahoo.com> wrote in message news:<3f0c6eab$0$162$a1866201@newsreader.visi.com>... shinypenny wrote: <snip> It's a long and involved story, but looking back I can't help but wonder that I was not deliberately put in my ex's life in order to cause him pain and force him to learn a lesson. A lesson I am positive he would *never* have learned had I stayed with him. Had we stayed married, there would not have been the necessary dynamite to explode him into such dramatic change. I'm not trying to pick on your beliefs here but doesn't that contradict one of the things the God was supposed to have given us? - Free will?

No, it does not contradict. Just because God makes a suggestion,
doesn't mean I have to follow it. That's where my own free will comes
in.
One explanation I've heard for why a "good" God would allow all the bad things that happen in the world is that he/she simply has nothing to do with them. He/she gave us free will and with that gift we are free to mess our lives and the lives of the others if we choose to. I'm not the most religious person in the world by any stretch, but even when I was a stronger believer, the idea that God would "make" us choose a certain spouse wouldn't have sit right with me.

It wouldn't sit right with me, either!

I sometimes like to look at my relationship to God as if he is the
parent, and I am the child. If my mom or dad had made me choose my
spouse, I would certainly have rebelled!! However, these days I have
no problem with seeking advice or guidance from my parents, as they
are very wise and know me pretty well.

If he/she could and did influence our lives that way, what's the point of living them? At that point God is living our lives for us.

shinypenny

07-10-2003, 11:56 AM

Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<kk8yr7gwpm.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu>... This is why discussions about religion so often can go nowhere. "The ways of god are beyond our comprehension" is _always_ available as an answer to any perceived mystery or inconsistency, and doesn't allow for much of a followup.

I know what you mean, Doug. I, for one, think that the ways of God are
NOT necessarily beyond our comprehension. I think God really wants us
to try and comprehend. It's in the trying -- the grappling with the
thorny ethical dilemmas and big questions -- that we grow closer to
him.

jen

Ignoramus11661

07-10-2003, 12:02 PM

In article <c8cb5319.0307101053.73c9af28@posting.google.com>, shinypenny wrote: doug <dugster77@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<3F0D004A.CD39B0D9@earthlink.net>... I just found and took the Myers-Briggs test. Result: INFJ Introverted Intuitive Feeler Judger So, you guessed it. -doug See if your married lady friend will also take the test. I'm betting she's an NF type, too. jen

I am an intp...

i

Randy Poe

07-10-2003, 05:11 PM

On 9 Jul 2003 04:19:05 -0700, lindauermadness@mydotcomaddress.com
(audrey in velvet) wrote: Funny thing was, at the time there was somebody else who I figured I was going to marry. But I felt nothing for her, except gratitude that she seemed to like me. I figured whatever this "love" stuff was, it wasn't something that was ever going to hit me, and what I needed was somebody whose company I just sort of didn't mind. Except more and more I *did* mind. And felt terrible about it because she really was a bright, interesting, and generally nice person.that girl, eh?

What?
In the midst of that, WHAM. And I can't even describe it as passion or physical lust in the way the women's magazines claim everybody starts out. Those things have grown and deepened with time. It was just that I literally couldn't imagine not being with her once I'd spent a week with her. Beats me how I could have been so certain, since I really didn't know her, or her me, and we're still learning stuff all the time about each other. But I was.why'd you spend a week without her? was it your choice of hers?

Without who? I said this was after I'd spent a week WITH her.
sounds so romantic! the way you met seems so surreal...

Very ordinary, actually. A departmental picnic. I was introduced to
her at the beginning (she came with a female friend, I came with
several male friends). Later me and a couple of buddies were trying to
get a ping-pong game going, and she walked by. I asked her to join us.
We just started laughing and talking during the ping-pong, and after
during the volleyball, and after when we carpooled everyone home
again, and after, and after... one guy who had designs on her said
something snide about her preferences at the picnic. I thought he was
nuts as I had no idea anything romantic was going on.

- Randy

22Ted

07-10-2003, 10:34 PM

Seeker wrote: In article <twoFile25123at-4D2305.02544810072003@news.mpls.visi.com>, twoFive <twoFile25123at@yahoo.com> wrote:

<snip>
More recently I read a book called something like "Why bad things happento good people" which I'm guessing you've also read. The book of Job isfeatured heavily in the book. Yes -- I've read it and it was at about the time I was reading it that I realized why the book Job doesn't mean much to people today, which became evident in what Kushner wrote -- if you do not believe in miracles, which Kushner doesn't, if you do not believe God can directly affect what goes on in this world, then you do not understand Job's predicament.In any case, I don't think free will implies an aloof God. For examplethere are a number of very important people in my life who are importantto me and may even influence my decisions, -but they don't make them forme. Equating important people who influence your decisions with the existence of evil is quite a stretch, wouldn't you say?

I should back up a bit and state that I don't really believe in the
Christian "God". I do believe in a higher power that we and all other
living things (and maybe even non-living things) are a part of. That's
pretty much as far as I will go. I'm mostly agnostic, for lack of a
better word, when it comes to "evil".

If God could have done anything about it, can you give any human comprehensible explanation for the holocaust? If you are honest I don't think you can, no matter how hard you try.

If I believed in God and God said one of his gifts to me and all others
was free will then I have no problem reconciling the existence of God
with the holocaust. If you believe in heaven and an immortal soul, what
ever lousy stuff happens to you here on earth won't matter much in the
long run as long as you pass the test and make it into heaven. So it's
probably more important that God stick to his own rules than intervene
in an ugly and brutal, but temporary (in the larger scheme of things)
situation.

I'm arguing the above as I think a believer might. I'm not a believer.

<snip> As I've said many times, I am not going to go into what I consider a very privileged area. As one precedent for sticking to that decision I use an incident in what is the best book on prayer I've read, written by Richard Foster. (The title of the book is, simply, "Prayer.") Towards the end of the book in a very moving chapter Foster writes of an encounter he had with God on the Pacific coast of Washington. During that encounter they spoke in what I remember him describing as something like the kind of face-to-face conversation any two people might have. As I recall, he reports having asked God all the sorts of questions he had long wanted to ask, had he the chance (and I'm sure we can all imagine what some of them might have been.) But, without drawing attention to it, he reported neither what he asked nor what the answers were, although he does report how later in the conversation he was given the direction for what he was to do as his life's goal. Now, I have never had an encounter with God where even the idea of engaging in such a dialogue entered my mind, but both my wife and I have had encounters that are analogous in their immediacy and specificity, and that's all I'm going to say.

I don't blame you for not wanting to go into details about this, but you
can't seem to resist dropping hints, so don't be suprised when people
speculate.

I think in some other post you've written about how do we know what God's will for us is -- what is called discernment. How did Jen know, for instance, that it was God's will that she and her ex-husband be married? Historically there seem to be three ways of knowing that (1) reasoning from what you know about God and what He has said to others (2) noticing the gentle hand of God in the events around and in you, particularly in response to prayer, prefereably as witnessed to by the presence of God associated with them (what some denominations call the "testimony of the Spirit") and (3) unmistakable direct revelations -- the "burning bush" experiences -- which, of course, are quite rare. Notice that even with (3) it is wise to check what you think you are discerning with others who know about that sort of thing and with the other two means -- what we think is God isn't always. I don't know if Jen ever talked to anyone else about her sense about her ex-husband at the time, but her description of it is a beautiful example of the second kind of discernment and for what it's worth it seems to me a valid conclusion on her part, for a variety of reasons including both how I felt upon reading it and how it is consistent with other things she's written about herself.

I don't know that I asked that specifically. Maybe someone else did. I
see two main purposes in my life. The first is to leave the world a
better place for my having been here. The second is to enjoy my life as
much as possible without compromising the first purpose. I don't worry
about what is God's will for me beyond that.
Ted

audrey in velvet

07-11-2003, 10:46 AM

Randy Poe <rpoePA@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<9vvrgv0u1k9r64omh3j8brtg8qg4ssp5ei@4ax.com>... On 9 Jul 2003 04:19:05 -0700, lindauermadness@mydotcomaddress.com (audrey in velvet) wrote: Funny thing was, at the time there was somebody else who I figured I was going to marry. But I felt nothing for her, except gratitude that she seemed to like me. I figured whatever this "love" stuff was, it wasn't something that was ever going to hit me, and what I needed was somebody whose company I just sort of didn't mind. Except more and more I *did* mind. And felt terrible about it because she really was a bright, interesting, and generally nice person.that girl, eh? What? In the midst of that, WHAM. And I can't even describe it as passion or physical lust in the way the women's magazines claim everybody starts out. Those things have grown and deepened with time. It was just that I literally couldn't imagine not being with her once I'd spent a week with her. Beats me how I could have been so certain, since I really didn't know her, or her me, and we're still learning stuff all the time about each other. But I was.why'd you spend a week without her? was it your choice of hers? Without who? I said this was after I'd spent a week WITH her.

oh sorry! i must be dyslexic! what did the two of you do in that one week?
sounds so romantic! the way you met seems so surreal... Very ordinary, actually. A departmental picnic. I was introduced to her at the beginning (she came with a female friend, I came with several male friends). Later me and a couple of buddies were trying to get a ping-pong game going, and she walked by. I asked her to join us. We just started laughing and talking during the ping-pong,

cute! i had no idea people still played ping pong!
and after during the volleyball, and after when we carpooled everyone home again, and after, and after... one guy who had designs on her said something snide about her preferences at the picnic. I thought he was nuts as I had no idea anything romantic was going on. - Randy

what did the guy say exactly about her preferences?

audrey

Tsam Nami

07-11-2003, 05:04 PM

Seeker wrote: twoFive wrote: When I was pretty young I read the bible from cover to cover. The only thing that really has stuck with me 20+ years later is that God went through quite a personality change between the old and new testaments. Did God change -- or did people change? (You know how much smarter our parents seem to be when we grow up than when we were kids, and how even though they don't change, they, of necessity, treat us differently as children than as teenagers than as adults..)

Apparently God only reveals what his audience is ready to understand.

This is practical as well as omniscient. Only ideas comprehensible
in terms of those already understood can be communicated. For example,
Gutenberg's letters needed to look like script, not for any reason in his
technology but so that his audience could understand them.
--
Tsam

Seeker

07-11-2003, 07:58 PM

In article <3F0E479D.4930E855@earthlink.net>, doug
<dugster77@earthlink.net> wrote:
jen, she has placed me incommunicado. No contact. Period.

That's a very painful spot to be in. I know. Even though I
understand pretty much how it happened and how either one of us was
powerless to have prevented it, that's what the woman I've referred to
as my soulfriend (also an NF) had to do to me. It was perhaps the
second lowest moment of my life in the past few years.

Ted

doug

07-11-2003, 10:00 PM

Seeker wrote:
In article <3F0E479D.4930E855@earthlink.net>, doug <dugster77@earthlink.net> wrote: jen, she has placed me incommunicado. No contact. Period. That's a very painful spot to be in. I know. Even though I understand pretty much how it happened and how either one of us was powerless to have prevented it, that's what the woman I've referred to as my soulfriend (also an NF) had to do to me. It was perhaps the second lowest moment of my life in the past few years. Ted

It's very painful and still has my intellect working overtime.
There are so many questions I have for her. Some of them are
just to verify my own subjective experience and to tell her
exactly what the week with her was like, from my point of
view. I want to talk about the shock of the metaphysical
things that happened. I want to ask her about some
mixed messages that she sent too. All of my questions would
make her take a second look at something she wants to
block out. -doug

Seeker

07-11-2003, 10:36 PM

In article <3F0F980F.666CE09E@earthlink.net>, doug
<dugster77@earthlink.net> wrote:
How did you deal with it? I have all of these unanswered questions along with the emotional loss. Just let it fade with time? -doug

Several ways. I found some consolation in people who understood what
she meant to me, even though they'd never met her, and could empathize
with the loss. Even my wife helped, although not being an NF she
doesn't really know what having a soulfriend is like. I recognized,
intellectually, that I was going through grief and tried to bring to
bear what I knew about that. I found myself in denial, analyzing what
I'd done wrong, even tried (in a message the response to which never
got delivered, causing more pain a year later when I tried to
re-establish contact) to argue her out of her decision. I prayed about
it and got somewhat of an answer and that was helpful. Mostly I looked
at what had happened, reviewed our interactions over the years and what
she'd told me about her new boyfriend, later to become her fiance and
then her husband and accepted that what had happened was inevitable and
we'd both served very important purposes in each other's lives but that
for her and her husband to heal all of their wounds (mostly his) from
before they met each other, once she'd met him she had to give me up as
a friend. One drastic mistake I made was to try to push another
friendship (one of the people who had consoled me) into the same mold
and that badly backfired -- she wasn't ready for the kind of emotional
intimacy I had had with my soulfriend. But, on the whole, it just took
time. It's been almost two and half years now and I'd say the pain
mostly was gone about a year ago..

Ted

Anastasia

07-12-2003, 07:23 AM

doug <dugster77@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<3F0CDB8C.73EF6FC8@earthlink.net>...
I'm glad you said this. It's important. Non-verbal communication is subtle, powerful, and reveals a lot about a potential partner. You can make a statement and SEE her reaction, which can tell you a lot. With this woman I was 'in-sync' with, half of the interaction was non-verbal, and sometimes there was just no need for words. We were just really comfortable with each other, ...just existing together, as weird as that sounds. -doug

I know what you mean. There was this one man I met last year whom I
felt completely in sync with physically but he reacted in such a
subversive manner when I attempted to touch him that I assumed that I
must've been confused about the intensity of the connection. Suffice
to say, men confuse me in general, lol. Although one night we stood
together and he put his arms around my waist and I thought, wow, what
a shock of electricity. I don't think he liked me though. I'd also
consulted my other female friends about it as well and they thought
the same thing. So, I don't know Doug, maybe those kind of in-sync
connections may just be one-sided. After the event, I just dismissed
it as irrelevant.

Anastasia

Randy Poe

07-12-2003, 06:46 PM

On 11 Jul 2003 10:46:10 -0700, lindauermadness@mydotcomaddress.com
(audrey in velvet) wrote:
Randy Poe <rpoePA@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<9vvrgv0u1k9r64omh3j8brtg8qg4ssp5ei@4ax.com>... On 9 Jul 2003 04:19:05 -0700, lindauermadness@mydotcomaddress.com Without who? I said this was after I'd spent a week WITH her.oh sorry! i must be dyslexic! what did the two of you do in that one week?

Nothing much to speak of. Just more time together. We went on one
date, after which we again talked all night. Then we took a trip to
New York together, one which we'd talked about at the beginning of the
week as a casual carpooling thing. She needed to go for some personal
business and I did too.

I'd say that I still had no idea we had a Relationship during the date
(which was pretty casual, "Hey a bunch of us are going to see Foul
Play, want to come?") or during the drive. But other people did, by
their reactions and some of the stuff they said.

By the end of the weekend, on the drive back home, I was proposing and
she was accepting.
Very ordinary, actually. A departmental picnic. I was introduced to her at the beginning (she came with a female friend, I came with several male friends). Later me and a couple of buddies were trying to get a ping-pong game going, and she walked by. I asked her to join us. We just started laughing and talking during the ping-pong,cute! i had no idea people still played ping pong!

The reference to "Foul Play" will give you the time frame.
what did the guy say exactly about her preferences?

Something along the lines of "I see you go more for [my ancestry]".

- Randy

Brian

07-13-2003, 05:20 AM

I think just now, after being married 4 years, I'm realizing my wife
is "the one". We've been through a lot in our short marriage and
we've had too many opportunities to walk away. I think we've seen
other worlds crumble around us and we looked inside and re-evaluated
things. Right now, I couldn't be happier and while I can't speak for
my wife, I've gotten the impression by things that she has said and
done, that she feel the same way.

--Brian

audrey in velvet

07-13-2003, 09:39 AM

doug <dugster77@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<3F10BE85.1311E8A2@earthlink.net>... audrey in velvet wrote: doug <dugster77@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<3F0F9638.C84BB921@earthlink.net>... Seeker wrote: > In article <3F0E479D.4930E855@earthlink.net>, doug > <dugster77@earthlink.net> wrote: > > > jen, she has placed me incommunicado. No contact. Period. > > That's a very painful spot to be in. I know. Even though I > understand pretty much how it happened and how either one of us was > powerless to have prevented it, that's what the woman I've referred to > as my soulfriend (also an NF) had to do to me. It was perhaps the > second lowest moment of my life in the past few years. > > Ted It's very painful and still has my intellect working overtime. There are so many questions I have for her. Some of them are just to verify my own subjective experience and to tell her exactly what the week with her was like, from my point of view. I want to talk about the shock of the metaphysical things that happened. I want to ask her about some mixed messages that she sent too. All of my questions would make her take a second look at something she wants to block out. -doug why dont you just tell her dougie? im sure if you wrote her an honest letter that she might confide in you as well... audrey, I can't. She's told me twice NOT to contact her again. Period. what kind of mixed messages did she send out of curiosity? if you can elaborate maybe i can try to help. :-D After a week of working/playing together: Doug: 'I will really miss you a lot.' Gina 'Will our paths cross again?' Doug (pause to think it over) 'No.' ...Will you ever be down in Phoenix? (where I live) Gina 'No, I'll be busy doing projects at home with my husband.' Her first response felt 'connected'. Her second response was a disconnect. Another mixed message: The day before I followed her to a scenic spot out of doors where we stood side by side as she directed our attention to the starry night. She soothingly spoke about the beauty of the landscape and night sky. She said, 'Isn't the sky beautiful?' I responded by placing my hand on her hip. She moved away slightly, allowing my hand to drop off of her. The romantic mood continued though, as she used the SAME soothing tone of voice, looking at the sky, and then asked me about the nearby town that I was staying in. (five miles away) She asked me what it was like there. She said she had never been there. I feel this was a romantic set up. She knew at this point that I was smitten. Why did she move away from my touch? Was she aware that someone who knew us might possibly see us together? There were some people around, not that close, but could possibly notice us. When she continued her romantic tone of voice and asked me about the place I was staying, was this her way of saying she wanted to go home with me? Or was she just seeing if she could get me to ask her to come home with me that night? Or was it something totally unromantic? She was angry when I told her a few weeks later that I loved her in an email, but earlier she wasn't angry when I placed my hand on her hip that night. Is that a contradiction? -doug

she sounds like an evil psychotic *****. i suggest you dont give her
the time of day anymore and stop obsessing about her.

audrey

07-13-2003, 07:00 PM

i wouldn't even blame her for everything
she sounds like an evil psychotic *****. i suggest you dont give her the time of day anymore and stop obsessing about her. audrey

07-15-2003, 12:44 AM

After a week of working/playing together: Doug: 'I will really miss you a lot.' Gina 'Will our paths cross again?' Doug (pause to think it over) 'No.' ...Will you ever be down in Phoenix? (where I live) Gina 'No, I'll be busy doing projects at home with my husband.' Her first response felt 'connected'. Her second response was a disconnect. Another mixed message: The day before I followed her to a scenic spot out of doors where we stood side by side as she directed our attention to the starry night. She soothingly spoke about the beauty of the landscape and night sky. She said, 'Isn't the sky beautiful?' I responded by placing my hand on her hip. She moved away slightly, allowing my hand to drop off of her. The romantic mood continued though, as she used the SAME soothing tone of voice, looking at the sky, and then asked me about the nearby town that I was staying in. (five miles away) She asked me what it was like there. She said she had never been there. I feel this was a romantic set up. She knew at this point that I was smitten. Why did she move away from my touch? Was she aware that someone who knew us might possibly see us together? There were some people around, not that close, but could possibly notice us. When she continued her romantic tone of voice and asked me about the place I was staying, was this her way of saying she wanted to go home with me? Or was she just seeing if she could get me to ask her to come home with me that night? Or was it something totally unromantic? She was angry when I told her a few weeks later that I loved her in an email, but earlier she wasn't angry when I placed my hand on her hip that night. Is that a contradiction? -doug

Err...the above? Definitely not talking about my neighbour's dinner.

wayfarer

07-15-2003, 02:51 PM

Ignoramus11661 <ignoramus11661@NOSPAM.11661.invalid> wrote in message news:<slrnbgre17.ncs.ignoramus11661@manifold.algebra.com>... In article <c8cb5319.0307101053.73c9af28@posting.google.com>, shinypenny wrote: doug <dugster77@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<3F0D004A.CD39B0D9@earthlink.net>... I just found and took the Myers-Briggs test. Result: INFJ Introverted Intuitive Feeler Judger So, you guessed it. -doug See if your married lady friend will also take the test. I'm betting she's an NF type, too. jen I am an intp... i

I'm a money-worshipping, status-seeking INTJ. According to
Myers-Briggs, I am a mastermind and very adept at manipulating people.
;-)

DAVID THE THIRD

shinypenny

07-15-2003, 05:23 PM

doug <dugster77@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<3F10BE85.1311E8A2@earthlink.net>... what kind of mixed messages did she send out of curiosity? if you can elaborate maybe i can try to help. :-D After a week of working/playing together: Doug: 'I will really miss you a lot.' Gina 'Will our paths cross again?' Doug (pause to think it over) 'No.' ...Will you ever be down in Phoenix? (where I live) Gina 'No, I'll be busy doing projects at home with my husband.' Her first response felt 'connected'. Her second response was a disconnect.

Well, err, yes. She remembered she was married....
Another mixed message: The day before I followed her to a scenic spot out of doors where we stood side by side as she directed our attention to the starry night. She soothingly spoke about the beauty of the landscape and night sky. She said, 'Isn't the sky beautiful?' I responded by placing my hand on her hip. She moved away slightly, allowing my hand to drop off of her. The romantic mood continued though, as she used the SAME soothing tone of voice, looking at the sky, and then asked me about the nearby town that I was staying in. (five miles away) She asked me what it was like there. She said she had never been there. I feel this was a romantic set up. She knew at this point that I was smitten. Why did she move away from my touch? Was she aware that someone who knew us might possibly see us together?

Doug, she moved away because she is married. It does sound like she
was attracted to you, but attraction is not enough. She's made a
commitment to someone else.
There were some people around, not that close, but could possibly notice us. When she continued her romantic tone of voice and asked me about the place I was staying, was this her way of saying she wanted to go home with me? Or was she just seeing if she could get me to ask her to come home with me that night? Or was it something totally unromantic?

Could be, maybe not, who knows. What if something had happened. She is
still married. Not a good scene. If you truly love someone, you
wouldn't place them in such a conflict as that. If you truly love her,
you'd enforce chaste and honorable relations -- until she left her
husband, if that's where the relationship was meant to lead. IMHO.
She was angry when I told her a few weeks later that I loved her in an email, but earlier she wasn't angry when I placed my hand on her hip that night. Is that a contradiction? -doug

Sure, life is full of contradictions, that's what makes it
interesting. Perhaps a little distance allowed her to recover her
head. SHE IS MARRIED. Don't forget that.

Personally? I'd have trouble falling in love with any man who would
try to tempt me into abusing my marriage vows, no matter how unhappy
and how much I wanted out of them. And I wouldn't expect any man to
respect me if I would so easily break my vows (even if it was with
them).

Another angle to think about....

jen

doug

07-15-2003, 09:56 PM

shinypenny wrote:
doug <dugster77@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<3F10BE85.1311E8A2@earthlink.net>... what kind of mixed messages did she send out of curiosity? if you can elaborate maybe i can try to help. :-D After a week of working/playing together: Doug: 'I will really miss you a lot.' Gina 'Will our paths cross again?' Doug (pause to think it over) 'No.' ...Will you ever be down in Phoenix? (where I live) Gina 'No, I'll be busy doing projects at home with my husband.' Her first response felt 'connected'. Her second response was a disconnect. Well, err, yes. She remembered she was married.... Another mixed message: The day before I followed her to a scenic spot out of doors where we stood side by side as she directed our attention to the starry night. She soothingly spoke about the beauty of the landscape and night sky. She said, 'Isn't the sky beautiful?' I responded by placing my hand on her hip. She moved away slightly, allowing my hand to drop off of her. The romantic mood continued though, as she used the SAME soothing tone of voice, looking at the sky, and then asked me about the nearby town that I was staying in. (five miles away) She asked me what it was like there. She said she had never been there. I feel this was a romantic set up. She knew at this point that I was smitten. Why did she move away from my touch? Was she aware that someone who knew us might possibly see us together? Doug, she moved away because she is married. It does sound like she was attracted to you, but attraction is not enough. She's made a commitment to someone else.

There was a metaphysical soulmate experience, not simply
'attraction'.
There were some people around, not that close, but could possibly notice us. When she continued her romantic tone of voice and asked me about the place I was staying, was this her way of saying she wanted to go home with me? Or was she just seeing if she could get me to ask her to come home with me that night? Or was it something totally unromantic? Could be, maybe not, who knows. What if something had happened. She is still married. Not a good scene. If you truly love someone, you wouldn't place them in such a conflict as that. If you truly love her, you'd enforce chaste and honorable relations -- until she left her husband, if that's where the relationship was meant to lead. IMHO. She was angry when I told her a few weeks later that I loved her in an email, but earlier she wasn't angry when I placed my hand on her hip that night. Is that a contradiction? -doug Sure, life is full of contradictions, that's what makes it interesting. Perhaps a little distance allowed her to recover her head. SHE IS MARRIED. Don't forget that. Personally? I'd have trouble falling in love with any man who would try to tempt me into abusing my marriage vows, no matter how unhappy and how much I wanted out of them. And I wouldn't expect any man to respect me if I would so easily break my vows (even if it was with them). Another angle to think about.... jen

Your interpretation of these events are the same as mine,
except you don't realize she was tempting me as much as
I was tempting her during that week together. I haven't
forgotten that she's married. What makes you think I have?
We were both thrown together for a week by the universe,
and neither of us pursued the other. It was a situation of
a soulmate connection with synchronicity and empathy.
We didn't ask for it. It was a passive mutual seduction,
based on this bizarre metaphysical connection. I'm still just
trying to understand it. I have very little expectations.
I don't expect her to break her vows unless that is the right
thing for her to do. I'm not judging or attempting to judge
her marriage. I just know this connection happened and maybe
it happened for a reason. What's the reason? I don't know.
'Recovering her head' could be a bad thing or a good thing.
We can't tell from this vantage point. Where love is concerned,
sometimes following the heart rather than the head is the
best way. Sometimes following the head means maintaining
an inappropriate status quo. Following the head can sometimes mean
remaining afraid of the unknown and going the logical 'safe' way.
'Recovering her head' may or may not be a good thing for her.
In any event, I constantly remember her marriage and honor
her wishes. -doug

Seeker

07-15-2003, 10:14 PM

In article <3F14DA96.9D293932@earthlink.net>, doug
<dugster77@earthlink.net> wrote:
It was a situation of a soulmate connection with synchronicity and empathy. We didn't ask for it. It was a passive mutual seduction, based on this bizarre metaphysical connection.

When you can talk about it with little words rather than big ones I
think you'll have made some progress.

Ted

07-18-2003, 08:03 AM

> Beats the hell out of me. Most likely Chameleon Lady is projecting her own self onto you. What she has written reveals quite a bit about the nature of her relationships. DAVID THE THIRD

Looks like Chameleon Lady is just being practical and seeing things the way
they are - as reality presents them. I'm a firm believer of good things take
time. It will take time to get to know an adult human being (who has
decades of experience and history) and to know her enough to trust her,
hence truly love that person. "Love at first sight" is nothing more than
"lust at first sight" most especially when the situation is highly
undesirable - in this case, the other person being married. I believe that
life is mostly how you perceive it and what goes on in your head is a direct
result of your perception, which doesn't necessarily mean it is reality. It
seems to me that doug was a victim of what he wanted to believe. I'm sorry
but the metaphysical messages from heaven that he was speaking of is all
hogwash to me. It sounds all too romantic but romantics almost always get
in trouble as they have not a firm grasp of reality.

Seeker

07-18-2003, 07:07 PM

In article <3F189D8F.9E5A119A@earthlink.net>, doug
<dugster77@earthlink.net> wrote:
Don't you just hate those 'big' words? Which ones didn't you understand? I'll try to explain them.

I understand them perfectly.
Does *your* heart understand them?
...What kind of 'progress' are you hinting at? -doug

Feeling rather than thinking. (Ya, look who's talking...)

Ted

doug

07-19-2003, 06:44 AM

Seeker wrote:
In article <3F189D8F.9E5A119A@earthlink.net>, doug <dugster77@earthlink.net> wrote: Don't you just hate those 'big' words? Which ones didn't you understand? I'll try to explain them. I understand them perfectly. Does *your* heart understand them? ...What kind of 'progress' are you hinting at? -doug Feeling rather than thinking. (Ya, look who's talking...) Ted

Ted, you can be in touch with your feelings while
understanding big words. When describing a 'love at first
sight' or soulmate experience, it's sometimes hard to find the
right words. I was just using the best words I could to
describe my experience and the way I felt. What makes you
think my heart didn't understand them? -doug

doug

07-19-2003, 07:12 AM

Chameleon Lady wrote:
Beats the hell out of me. Most likely Chameleon Lady is projecting her own self onto you. What she has written reveals quite a bit about the nature of her relationships. DAVID THE THIRD Looks like Chameleon Lady is just being practical and seeing things the way they are - as reality presents them. I'm a firm believer of good things take time. It will take time to get to know an adult human being (who has decades of experience and history) and to know her enough to trust her, hence truly love that person. "Love at first sight" is nothing more than "lust at first sight" most especially when the situation is highly undesirable - in this case, the other person being married. I believe that life is mostly how you perceive it and what goes on in your head is a direct result of your perception, which doesn't necessarily mean it is reality. It seems to me that doug was a victim of what he wanted to believe. I'm sorry but the metaphysical messages from heaven that he was speaking of is all hogwash to me. It sounds all too romantic but romantics almost always get in trouble as they have not a firm grasp of reality.

Those who have not experience love at first are in no position to
talk about it or judge it. What would the frame of reference be?
Those who have experienced it, have also experienced the lust of
infatuation and can differentiate between lust and 'love at first sight'.
I think you are totally guessing about this. How many times have
I experienced lust and infatuation in my life? Dozens of times!
(like most people) So, explain to me how I can see a very clear
difference between my recent soulmate experience and what
we would call a typical infatuation?

You don't know what you are talking about. -doug

Seeker

07-20-2003, 09:09 AM

In article <3F194B88.F5F40803@earthlink.net>, doug
<dugster77@earthlink.net> wrote:
Ted, you can be in touch with your feelings while understanding big words. When describing a 'love at first sight' or soulmate experience, it's sometimes hard to find the right words. I was just using the best words I could to describe my experience and the way I felt. What makes you think my heart didn't understand them? -doug

It was a "methinks he doth protest too much" kind of feeling about what
you've written -- that you're trying entirely *too* hard to justify and
explain it all. That's all.

Oh, and one other thing. (in Peter Falk Columbo voice). You believe
what happened was God, or "the universe" having arranged it -- that it
was meant to be (or something like that.) I fully believe that God
*does* arrange for things to happen, sometimes involving events long,
long before whatever it is comes about. But I also know that
accurately perceivng that is what is going on is something that all too
often is very difficult --- even under, or especially under,
circumstances like the ones you describe. What you need to ask is,
"Does it seem like God?: (1) is it the way God has acted and
interacted with you before? (2) What do others who are familiar with
and intimate with God say about it? (3) is it consistent with how God
has interacted with people throughout history? The first question
requires that you've been paying attention to how God has been
interacting with you throughout your life, especially recently, the
second that you have a community of knowledgeable, critical but
supportive, people (even just one is a start) with whom you can talk
about it, and the third requires that you don't decide what's going on
in isolation from the rest of the world.

Ted

07-20-2003, 09:23 AM

Those who have not experience love at first are in no position to talk about it or judge it. What would the frame of reference be? Those who have experienced it, have also experienced the lust of infatuation and can differentiate between lust and 'love at first sight'. I think you are totally guessing about this. How many times have I experienced lust and infatuation in my life? Dozens of times! (like most people) So, explain to me how I can see a very clear difference between my recent soulmate experience and what we would call a typical infatuation? You don't know what you are talking about. -doug

First of all, doesn't your mother teach you how to RESPECT people? Just
because I have differing opinion from you doesn't mean I'm guessing or don't
know what I'm talking about. Grow up, will you? You obviously don't want
to ruin your ideas about "Love at first sight" and that's fair. The only
difference about a typical infatuation and that infamous "soulmate
experience" you're speaking of is the LEVEL of infatuation. Some people
have deeper connection to some more than others but TO ME and to some other
people who don't share your views (and yes they do exist), it's all just
infatuation at first sight. Love can only develop in TIME. Put it this
way... my main point is... you cannot LOVE someone in a week. I respect the
word far too much.

Oh by the way? what's the majority of the answers to your question? "love
developed gradually and still finding more about partner each day"... maybe
that tells you one itsy bitsy tiny thing? Get a clue. But hey, your
hollywood movie protrayal of real life is really quite cute.

Doug Anderson

07-20-2003, 09:31 AM

"Chameleon Lady" <someone@microsoft.com> writes:
Those who have not experience love at first are in no position to talk about it or judge it. What would the frame of reference be? Those who have experienced it, have also experienced the lust of infatuation and can differentiate between lust and 'love at first sight'. I think you are totally guessing about this. How many times have I experienced lust and infatuation in my life? Dozens of times! (like most people) So, explain to me how I can see a very clear difference between my recent soulmate experience and what we would call a typical infatuation? You don't know what you are talking about. -doug First of all, doesn't your mother teach you how to RESPECT people? Just because I have differing opinion from you doesn't mean I'm guessing or don't know what I'm talking about. Grow up, will you? You obviously don't want to ruin your ideas about "Love at first sight" and that's fair. The only difference about a typical infatuation and that infamous "soulmate experience" you're speaking of is the LEVEL of infatuation. Some people have deeper connection to some more than others but TO ME and to some other people who don't share your views (and yes they do exist), it's all just infatuation at first sight. Love can only develop in TIME. Put it this way... my main point is... you cannot LOVE someone in a week. I respect the word far too much. Oh by the way? what's the majority of the answers to your question? "love developed gradually and still finding more about partner each day"... maybe that tells you one itsy bitsy tiny thing? Get a clue. But hey, your hollywood movie protrayal of real life is really quite cute.

Methinks she has a good point. You started this thread with an
abstract question, but it turns out that the abstract question you
asked was in hopes of finding an answer that corresponded to what you
wanted to believe. That isn't the answer you got, so now you want to
ignore it.

Doug (the other one)

Kelly & John Schutte

07-20-2003, 05:21 PM

doug <dugster77@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<3F09AA16.207152FD@earthlink.net>... When you met your spouse, was it immediately obvious that he or she was that 'special' person? Or did it take time and you gradually realized this was the person for you? Do you still feel the same way today? -doug, a single guy

Hi Doug....I have only had 2 significant relationships in my life and
married both of them....I met my 1st husband when I was 15, we dated
for 5 yrs then moved in together and married the year after. We were
married for 16 yrs before he left me for someone else.

Even after that, I still believed in marriage, commitment and falling
in love.

And I was so lucky to find someone else, who I did know, RIGHT AWAY
was to be for me. And even move luckily, he felt the same.

It was easy to be together, could talk about everything, never felt I
had to be a certain way or hesitate in sharing my feelings. Total
openess and the desire to find a happy life. You wouldnt beleive the
number of people out there just not chosing a happy way of life.

I thank God everyday, as he is my gift in life.

There are no gaurantees in life and yes, things change over time, but
all in all.....its can be as wonderful as you let it. All the cliches
come into light when your in love because its so true!

Still there is nothing wrong with taking your time and while waiting
growing together as a couple and planning your future together.

Just my thoughts...good luck with yours....Kelly

doug

07-27-2003, 10:44 AM

Chameleon Lady wrote:
As we go through life, we find our way with our senses and that includes ESP. Just because I answered someone's request for details regarding some mixed messages that she sent me, doesn't mean that I haven't put this behind me to a large degree. When you go through an extraordinary experience like this, it's only natural to take a good look at it. It was an emotionally shocking experience for me. I think it's okay to talk about it and analyze it. That's good to do. As for my reactions to this experience, I know most people in my place would react the same way. In the span of seven days there were just too many signs and coincidences to deal with. I dealt with them by thinking God or the universe had placed us together for a reason. What was that reason? It's a natural question to ask and that leads to analyzing the experience. Was the universe playing a joke on me? As things happened, I wondered, 'Is this really happening?' What is going on here? I looked into her eyes and I was in a beautiful unknown place that pulled me in, unlike any other infatuation. And then she spoke my thoughts and had my attitudes. Why? It was a connection with comfort, empathy, and excitement, and it was all for naught because she is married. Maybe she allowed this connection to happen because her marriage is wrong for her. Maybe the Heavens were telling her that she married the wrong person. I don't know, or pretend to know. How do YOU decide what conditions are 'favourable'? ie What if she married a guy for the wrong reasons like for financial gain, and now the Heavens was showing her a real loving connection? I disagree with your idea that all good things must take time. I have read about and I personally know of couples who have been great matches from the very beginning. It's true with friendship too. I've made friends with some people very quickly and the friendship still continues in the same positive spirit of the initial familiarity period. Again, when you have a soulmate connection like this, you don't hold on to it, as much as try to find meaning in it. I'm dating other women. That connection has become a kind of benchmark. She has raised the bar for me and shown me what is possible. -doug Let me share with you that huge emotional experience I had 7 years ago. When I first saw him, he materialised everything I'd ever dreamed of finding in a man - physical, emotional, spiritual, intellectual connection. We talked about everything. I fell flat on my face in love with this guy. I thought we were the most perfect couple. I felt we were connected in every way. We fell in-love too quickly.. in about 3 or 4 days.. we were together for a total of 3 weeks everyday, until I had to leave to go back home... I thought he was willing to continue the relationship until we started living in the same city (I was willing to move) but he had other ideas. It took me 6 months to a year to get over the whole thing completely. I was a total goner yet I thought to myslef "we ARE made for each other so I will be patient and I'm SURE we will get married one day.. it could be 2, 3, 5 years time." We kept in touch and the more I knew him as a person, the more I realised he wasn't "The One". This was from believing with all my heart that he was a part of me since birth. Now he's married and I've seen them together... he worships her and she does the same. If we were given the chance to stay together after our first meeting and say, dated for a year, we would've driven each other nuts. There were too many aspects of his personality that will never compliment mine and vice versa. It takes time and different situations to bring out the different sides to a person. I cannot call it Love if I can't stand that person. Look I'm not saying people cannot have instant attraction and stay together forever. I just believe that the gradual discovery of each other - going through different trials and tribulations, in time - is what bonds them together, and not the initial instant attraction.

You have my sincere sympathy for having gone through that painful
experience with that person. I guess that instant severe attraction,
doesn't have much meaning. I had never experienced it before in my life.
I'm not sure of what to make of it. According to a statistical study I've read,
'love at first sight' couples have a much lower divorce rate than
the 50% national average. So, it appears an instant deep connection
can work out favorably, but as you have proved, not always.

On a positive note, I have to say that my experience with that woman
has opened me up to empathizing with women in general. I think it
will enable me to find that 'right' person to spend my life with. It was
a kind of painful, but positive wake-up call for me.

You're right, as time goes on couples discover other sides to
a person's personality as they go through trials and tribulations
and also positive experiences. That learning and growing process
can take people in two directions: closer or further apart. That's regardless
of whether or not there was an instant powerful connection at the start.

I would think that the degree of deep empathy that I experienced
could only be a good beginning for a long term relationship, but
your story has me questioning it. Although your realtionship with
that person didn't work out, it doesn't necessarily mean that an
enduring relationship cannot begin with the intensity that you
experienced. I now see that it is also true that a very intense initial
connection does not guarantee anything long term. I wish you
would've shared your story sooner. Thank you for sharing.
I'm here to learn, not to promote a particular strategy or agenda.
-doug

Seeker

07-27-2003, 04:19 PM

In article <3F2387F5.AFD5B3B2@earthlink.net>, doug
<dugster77@earthlink.net> wrote:
I mostly agree. I'm trying to explain it rather than justify it. For me, it's a bizarre, mostly unexplainable experience, but maybe there are people out here who can explain it and show me the light. If God didn't arrange it, then the unique intensity was meaningless, right? -doug

Doug -- without any evidence to the contrary and relying on your
description of things, I am very willing to believe your meeting with
this woman was something with God's hand in it. But that doesn't mean
that the purpose of the meeitng is that you and she form a romantic
relationship -- and it may take you considerable time before you do
find out (if you do ever) what the purpose was. I have had similar
very strong senses about several women -- and in all cases except for
the one currently on my mind (for which it is still uncertain) the
purpose of our paths crossing was definitely not to form a romantic
liason, but something else. It is true that in all but one of the
cases there were varying degrees of romantic feelings towards each
other (sometimes reciprocal, mostly not) but that was mostly a
compicating factor and not essential.

Ted

doug

07-28-2003, 10:31 AM

Seeker wrote:
In article <3F2387F5.AFD5B3B2@earthlink.net>, doug <dugster77@earthlink.net> wrote: I mostly agree. I'm trying to explain it rather than justify it. For me, it's a bizarre, mostly unexplainable experience, but maybe there are people out here who can explain it and show me the light. If God didn't arrange it, then the unique intensity was meaningless, right? -doug Doug -- without any evidence to the contrary and relying on your description of things, I am very willing to believe your meeting with this woman was something with God's hand in it. But that doesn't mean that the purpose of the meeitng is that you and she form a romantic relationship -- and it may take you considerable time before you do find out (if you do ever) what the purpose was. I have had similar very strong senses about several women -- and in all cases except for the one currently on my mind (for which it is still uncertain) the purpose of our paths crossing was definitely not to form a romantic liason, but something else. It is true that in all but one of the cases there were varying degrees of romantic feelings towards each other (sometimes reciprocal, mostly not) but that was mostly a compicating factor and not essential. Ted

Okay. Well, in any event, it was a highly unusual experience and
makes life more interesting. It may have had the effect of changing
the way I relate to women in general, in a positive way.
....So I've got that going for me. :-)

It also will be interesting to see how this experience evolves as time
goes on. In the coming years our paths will occasionally cross, in our
line of work, which will have the effect of maintaining that connection
regardless of the decisions we make. It won't be easy dating women,
with her hovering around in the background, but that doesn't mean
it can't be done. The obvious 'cure' is the intriduction of another
amazing woman. That can happen. -doug

doug

07-28-2003, 10:32 AM

Seeker wrote:
In article <3F2387F5.AFD5B3B2@earthlink.net>, doug <dugster77@earthlink.net> wrote: I mostly agree. I'm trying to explain it rather than justify it. For me, it's a bizarre, mostly unexplainable experience, but maybe there are people out here who can explain it and show me the light. If God didn't arrange it, then the unique intensity was meaningless, right? -doug Doug -- without any evidence to the contrary and relying on your description of things, I am very willing to believe your meeting with this woman was something with God's hand in it. But that doesn't mean that the purpose of the meeitng is that you and she form a romantic relationship -- and it may take you considerable time before you do find out (if you do ever) what the purpose was. I have had similar very strong senses about several women -- and in all cases except for the one currently on my mind (for which it is still uncertain) the purpose of our paths crossing was definitely not to form a romantic liason, but something else. It is true that in all but one of the cases there were varying degrees of romantic feelings towards each other (sometimes reciprocal, mostly not) but that was mostly a compicating factor and not essential. Ted

Okay. Well, in any event, it was a highly unusual experience and
makes life more interesting. It may have had the effect of changing
the way I relate to women in general, in a positive way.
....So I've got that going for me. :-)

It also will be interesting to see how this experience evolves as time
goes on. In the coming years our paths will occasionally cross, in our
line of work, which will have the effect of maintaining that connection
regardless of the decisions we make. It won't be easy dating women,
with her hovering around in the background, but that doesn't mean
it can't be done. The obvious 'cure' is the introduction of another
amazing woman. That can happen. -doug