On Mon, 07 Jul 2003 04:03:36 GMT, cupasoup@softhome.net (Jack C
Lipton) wrote:

<various trimmings>The idea being that if you can't tell when you've stepped onyour spouse's toes, when you can't tell that their feelingshave been hurt, when you can't see that you have blood onyour own hands...

Are you equating hurt feelings with "blood on your hands"? My
goodness, you're dramatic!
As a human being, no person is perfect. Period. We allmake mistakes. A lot of a relationship is being able totell when you've made a mistake and acknowledging it...and then trying to show an interest in not repeating it.

<more trimmings>

Maybe I wasn't Paying Attention, but I find this confusing to follow.
I think it's the generalities; perhaps if you were more specific about
to whom you refer?

~Empress, In the Peanut Gallery

Empress Otku wrote: On Mon, 07 Jul 2003 04:03:36 GMT, cupasoup@softhome.net (Jack C Lipton) wrote: <various trimmings> The idea being that if you can't tell when you've stepped on your spouse's toes, when you can't tell that their feelings have been hurt, when you can't see that you have blood on your own hands... Are you equating hurt feelings with "blood on your hands"? My goodness, you're dramatic!

One of the things that strikes me about how Jack (and Ted, for that matter)
describes his marriage is the lack of resilience each spouse has wrt to the
other. Almost every word they say to each other is seen as a potential
blow - very little is innocuous.

Jack, what if you tried telling your wife how you really feel? Start with
something you feel only a little vulnerable about but something over which
you know your wife will have at least a small negative reaction. Perhaps you
could build up a thicker skin over time and change your perspective. The
world will not end if you disagree with your wife or have a desire she
doesn't share. Trust and respect go hand in hand - the only way you'll get
both is by deserving them but you also have expect them and *give* them back
to your wife.

It's really fear that's holding you back.

Tai

Tai wrote: One of the things that strikes me about how Jack (and Ted, for that matter) describes his marriage is the lack of resilience each spouse has wrt to the other. Almost every word they say to each other is seen as a potential blow - very little is innocuous.

Perhaps...

In other words, it may be a factor that I'm not emotionally
fragile, per se, but brittle instead? And need to be more
ductile? Hmmmm...

This is a very different thing to consider since embrittlement
makes it harder to change shape and reduces the elasticity of
a material...
Jack, what if you tried telling your wife how you really feel? Start with something you feel only a little vulnerable about but something over which you know your wife will have at least a small negative reaction. Perhaps you could build up a thicker skin over time and change your perspective. The world will not end if you disagree with your wife or have a desire she doesn't share. Trust and respect go hand in hand - the only way you'll get both is by deserving them but you also have expect them and *give* them back to your wife.

I hate saying "Yes, but..."

Between your first paragraph and this one I can see where
you're going. I need to find an issue that is not as deeply
entangled with all of the other "sensitive spots" within my
inventory... which will take some effort to tease it out
from the nest.

I agree I should have a thicker skin, and, yes, I should be
able to disagree verbally with her w/o having to feel like
the child in this relationship.

I *have* been gaining strength in knowing more of who I am
and what I can do... yet this is occurring incrementally at
a less-than-reassuring pace.
It's really fear that's holding you back.

Fear is the only thing holding _anybody_ back. The fear of
rejection, the fear of censure, the fear of failure, the
fear of loneliness... (generalizing now) we call carry at
least the shadows of these. Many of these are merely carry-
overs from our childhood; it sometimes is easier to cling to
some of these because they are so much closer to the center
of our identity...

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup@softhome.net | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
"Do these pants make my penis look small?"

"Jack C Lipton" <cupasoup@softhome.net> wrote in message
news:slrnbgircn.rgu.cupasoup@soup2nets.net.dhis.or g... Fear is the only thing holding _anybody_ back. The fear of rejection, the fear of censure, the fear of failure, the fear of loneliness... (generalizing now) we call carry at least the shadows of these. Many of these are merely carry- overs from our childhood; it sometimes is easier to cling to some of these because they are so much closer to the center of our identity...

So why not tackle those fears? Improve your self esteem, develop your
confidence, thicken up your skin. Face your fears. Look them right in the
eye and imagine the worst case scenario, then imagine how you would deal
with that. Imagine how you would survive. Imagine how you would win. Your
fears would then not be holding you back.

Amy

On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 22:59:03 -0700, Empress Otku wrote:
On Mon, 07 Jul 2003 04:03:36 GMT, cupasoup@softhome.net (Jack CLipton) wrote:<various trimmings>The idea being that if you can't tell when you've stepped onyour spouse's toes, when you can't tell that their feelingshave been hurt, when you can't see that you have blood onyour own hands...Are you equating hurt feelings with "blood on your hands"? Mygoodness, you're dramatic!As a human being, no person is perfect. Period. We allmake mistakes. A lot of a relationship is being able totell when you've made a mistake and acknowledging it...and then trying to show an interest in not repeating it.<more trimmings>Maybe I wasn't Paying Attention, but I find this confusing to follow.I think it's the generalities; perhaps if you were more specific aboutto whom you refer?~Empress, In the Peanut Gallery

I thought it was just ME!

Most times, I have a hard time trying to figure out what the hell Jack
just said!

Too many 50¢ words...and thoughts.

SAY something, Jack. Don't talk in generalities so much! lol


Have a nice week...

Gus

Follow Joan Rivers' example --- get pre-embalmed!

On Mon, 07 Jul 2003 12:53:44 GMT, cupasoup@softhome.net (Jack C
Lipton) wrote:
Fear is the only thing holding _anybody_ back.

Lack of vision is what holds many people back.


Have a nice week...

Gus

Follow Joan Rivers' example --- get pre-embalmed!

In article <beb67l$2uco0$1@ID-123442.news.dfncis.de>, Tai
<tainuiti@yahoo.com> wrote:
One of the things that strikes me about how Jack (and Ted, for that matter) describes his marriage is the lack of resilience each spouse has wrt to the other. Almost every word they say to each other is seen as a potential blow - very little is innocuous.

That is probably a true observation about me, but I'm curious -- how
specifically did you form that impression?

Ted

Jack C Lipton wrote:
I hate saying "Yes, but..."

You've got your heels dug so firmly in the ground you're about to take root.
:)
Between your first paragraph and this one I can see where you're going. I need to find an issue that is not as deeply entangled with all of the other "sensitive spots" within my inventory... which will take some effort to tease it out from the nest.

Yes.
I agree I should have a thicker skin, and, yes, I should be able to disagree verbally with her w/o having to feel like the child in this relationship.

Yes. You should be able to trust and believe in yourself enough to demand
your wife treat you with respect. You should also be able to trust that your
wife won't shred you into tiny ribbons for expressing your feelings or
thoughts. If you want her to change the way she relates to you, you will
have to change first. I agree with what Amy Lou wrote.

Let the worm turn....
I *have* been gaining strength in knowing more of who I am and what I can do... yet this is occurring incrementally at a less-than-reassuring pace. It's really fear that's holding you back. Fear is the only thing holding _anybody_ back. The fear of rejection, the fear of censure, the fear of failure, the fear of loneliness... (generalizing now) we call carry at least the shadows of these. Many of these are merely carry- overs from our childhood; it sometimes is easier to cling to some of these because they are so much closer to the center of our identity...

If you don't look past the fear then you'll remain where you are.

Tai

Seeker wrote: In article <beb67l$2uco0$1@ID-123442.news.dfncis.de>, Tai <tainuiti@yahoo.com> wrote: One of the things that strikes me about how Jack (and Ted, for that matter) describes his marriage is the lack of resilience each spouse has wrt to the other. Almost every word they say to each other is seen as a potential blow - very little is innocuous. That is probably a true observation about me, but I'm curious -- how specifically did you form that impression?

Oh Ted.... if only you could see my face. I feel like you've just set me an
assignment where I'll have insert footnotes and quote google references!

Obviously I'm not going to do that and you'll probably find my response
irritatingly vague but almost all your posts where you discuss the way you
communicate with your wife show how hard you find the idea of sharing your
inner self with her. You don't want her to know you because you fear the
consequences of that knowledge.

Tai

"Tai" said: If you don't look past the fear then you'll remain where you are.

Hi Tai!

I was just thinking...i replied to you in asd but i should have addressed it
to here!! Some people in there don't like cross-posting but seeing you
visited me there...it wasn't really, that time ;-) Gee..don't know..can't
please all of the people all of the time....and can only please some of the
people, some of the time..or something like that!!!!!

Temily

Temily wrote: "Tai" said: If you don't look past the fear then you'll remain where you are. Hi Tai! I was just thinking...i replied to you in asd but i should have addressed it to here!! Some people in there don't like cross-posting but seeing you visited me there...it wasn't really, that time ;-) Gee..don't know..can't please all of the people all of the time....and can only please some of the people, some of the time..or something like that!!!!!

Don't worry about it, Temily. I read ASD several times a week even though I
rarely post there, so I'd catch up with you eventually (just looked now,
btw). I posted to you in ASD because of that comment about crossposting from
the person who is a little fragile about ASM posts turning up in ASD. It
doesn't matter one way or t'other to me but it's not worth making a big deal
about it.

Phew, that sounds complicated!

But it's nice to see you in here for a change. :)

Tai

"Tai" said: Don't worry about it, Temily. I read ASD several times a week even though
I rarely post there, so I'd catch up with you eventually (just looked now, btw). I posted to you in ASD because of that comment about crossposting
from the person who is a little fragile about ASM posts turning up in ASD. It doesn't matter one way or t'other to me but it's not worth making a big
deal about it. Phew, that sounds complicated! But it's nice to see you in here
for a change. :)

I guess she's a bit sensitive about it..and i do understand it, in a way,
because some people, when they're feeling so miserable in their own
relationships find it hard to see others happy..or to share happy
relationship stories...I just know for me, when i feel really miserable
about something..or about my relationship (which is non-existent at the
moment!) i like to be around people who empathise, but who actually are
happy...and especially in their relationships..because it gives me hope...I
do seem to remember a post about Christmas or something that found it's way
from here to there (gosh it could have been one of mine!? hmm..) where
people were talking about what gifts to buy spouses etc...anyway...yeah, no
point complicating an issue that isn't really that complicated!!! It's great
to be back here..and you're a shining light..and even better, an opinionated
shining light! :-)

Temily

"Jack C Lipton" <cupasoup@softhome.net> wrote in Unless I'm punished with a lifespan like my father's (I do not think another 42 years of life is something to look forward to, especially when you're 49) it is likely that I will be wrestling my way out of this maze for the rest of it. Well, at least it's something to live _for_, not despite.

My oh my that is so sad. My Grandmother is about to turn 100 and I am
looking forward to reaching a similar age - that means another 58 years.

Amy

Amy Lou wrote: Jack C Lipton wrote: Unless I'm punished with a lifespan like my father's (I do not think another 42 years of life is something to look forward to, especially when you're 49) it is likely that I will be wrestling my way out of this maze for the rest of it. Well, at least it's something to live _for_, not despite. My oh my that is so sad. My Grandmother is about to turn 100 and I am looking forward to reaching a similar age - that means another 58 years.

It's not so sad... quality of life is often important. One's
own interactions with others also help (or hinder) motivation
to maximize longevity.

My dad had a stroke in his mid-70s so that cut down on his
activity quite a bit (actually he had a TIA, they discovered
that his carotoid was a bit squeezed, he chose to get a
carotoid endarectomy (sp?) and had a stroke during recovery).
Up until that point he was still playing tennis, golf, etc.
A *lot* of his energy and enthusiasm was diminished afterwards.

There's the thought of quality of life mixed in there... and
the idea of being impaired physically is not reassuring. Add
to that my recent experiences which seem to imply I had my own
TIA... and may have been having them over time... and any kind
of enthusiasm for longevity is reduced. So there's that issue
with whether my wetware makes it worth-while if I can't trust
the mechanisms underlying my own mind/identity.

What's bothersome is that my risk factors are not all that
bad... my cholesterol is disgustingly good, my glucose #s
are good, &c &c though my BP does have hypertensive spikes
on occasion. (shrug)

I *try* to be pragmatic despite my (apparently innate) default
tendency towards idealism, so after a while a long life may NOT
be something to look *forward* too.

It's all relative.

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup@softhome.net | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
"Do these pants make my penis look small?"

"Jack C Lipton" <cupasoup@softhome.net> wrote in message
news:slrnbglfls.1if.cupasoup@soup2nets.net.dhis.or g... Amy Lou wrote: Jack C Lipton wrote: Unless I'm punished with a lifespan like my father's (I do not think another 42 years of life is something to look forward to, especially when you're 49) it is likely that I will be wrestling my way out of this maze for the rest of it. Well, at least it's something to live _for_, not despite. My oh my that is so sad. My Grandmother is about to turn 100 and I am looking forward to reaching a similar age - that means another 58 years. It's not so sad... quality of life is often important. One's own interactions with others also help (or hinder) motivation to maximize longevity.

But you have already decided that your quality of life is low or is going
to get low. That is the sad bit.

I see the glass is half full, you see that it is half empty.

My dad died at age 58, my mum died at age 70. Neither were healthy people.
So how come I am not as pessimistic as you?

Amy

In article <bedl21$41iv3$1@ID-123442.news.dfncis.de>, Tai
<tainuiti@yahoo.com> wrote:
You should also be able to trust that your wife won't shred you into tiny ribbons for expressing your feelings or thoughts.

And if you can't?

Ted

In article <bedllb$3tinj$1@ID-123442.news.dfncis.de>, Tai
<tainuiti@yahoo.com> wrote:
Seeker wrote: In article <beb67l$2uco0$1@ID-123442.news.dfncis.de>, Tai <tainuiti@yahoo.com> wrote: One of the things that strikes me about how Jack (and Ted, for that matter) describes his marriage is the lack of resilience each spouse has wrt to the other. Almost every word they say to each other is seen as a potential blow - very little is innocuous. That is probably a true observation about me, but I'm curious -- how specifically did you form that impression? Oh Ted.... if only you could see my face. I feel like you've just set me an assignment where I'll have insert footnotes and quote google references! Obviously I'm not going to do that and you'll probably find my response irritatingly vague but almost all your posts where you discuss the way you communicate with your wife show how hard you find the idea of sharing your inner self with her. You don't want her to know you because you fear the consequences of that knowledge.

I should have been more specific -- I know that is the case with me --
that I fear anything I say will be a potential blow and that I've said
that in many ways. What I want to know is how you gained that
impression about her, seeing as I believe I've said very little about
her end of any conversations.

Ted

>>You should also be able to trust that your wife won'tshred you into tiny ribbons for expressing your feelingsor thoughts.
And if you can't?

Well, then, I would have to ask why you're still married
to someone who would be that cruel to you. Heck, Ted, I
won't even *socialize* with someone who would do that to
me, let alone share my whole life with them.

Tracey

Seeker wrote:

<snip>
I should have been more specific -- I know that is the case with me -- that I fear anything I say will be a potential blow and that I've said that in many ways. What I want to know is how you gained that impression about her, seeing as I believe I've said very little about her end of any conversations.

I think you're saying you think this is a one way issue - you fear hurting
your wife with your honesty but are less worried about her hurting you with
hers?

The impression you give me is that if you let your wife 'know" you you'll be
giving power over you to someone you don't trust. The reasons for the
mistrust are many and based in your history together. I don't see how I can
give you any advice that you can use, Ted, because I don't know how you
could get past all that history of hiding from each other emotionally. It'd
be a huge leap of faith for either of you at this stage.

BTW, the question I asked you about your wife being the light of your life
or the cross you have to bear may have sounded flippant but it was genuine.
I really can't tell which it is.

Tai

> >>You should also be able to trust that your wife won'tshred you into tiny ribbons for expressing your feelingsor thoughts.And if you can't?Well, then, I would have to ask why you're still marriedto someone who would be that cruel to you. Heck, Ted, Iwon't even *socialize* with someone who would do that tome, let alone share my whole life with them.Tracey

Ted, I'm wondering the same thing. In the "how did you know this was the
'one'?" thread, you seem to indicate that you feel a great connection to your
wife. I really don't see how you can feel that way, when, simultaneously, you
don't feel you can trust her not to be cruel to you.

Can you help me to understand?

Sheila

WhansaMi wrote:> You should also be able to trust that your wife won't> shred you into tiny ribbons for expressing your feelings> or thoughts. And if you can't? Well, then, I would have to ask why you're still married to someone who would be that cruel to you. Heck, Ted, I won't even *socialize* with someone who would do that to me, let alone share my whole life with them. Tracey Ted, I'm wondering the same thing. In the "how did you know this was the 'one'?" thread, you seem to indicate that you feel a great connection to your wife. I really don't see how you can feel that way, when, simultaneously, you don't feel you can trust her not to be cruel to you. Can you help me to understand?

Waiting with baited breath for the answer to this.....

Tai

Doug Anderson wrote: I think he already said he won't answer this, and it is something private between Ted and Mrs Ted.

I must have missed that. That's a bit of a conversation stopper!

Oh well, onwards and upwards......

Tai

Amy Lou wrote: But you have already decided that your quality of life is low or is going to get low. That is the sad bit. I see the glass is half full, you see that it is half empty.

I'm the son of an engineer: the glass is twice as big as it
needs to be.
My dad died at age 58, my mum died at age 70. Neither were healthy people. So how come I am not as pessimistic as you?

You haven't seen my in-laws; she's crippled with arthritis
and has advanced alzheimers, he's diabetic and the caregiver.

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup@softhome.net | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
"Do these pants make my penis look small?"

Amy Lou wrote: Jack C Lipton wrote: Amy Lou wrote: But you have already decided that your quality of life is low or is going to get low. That is the sad bit. I see the glass is half full, you see that it is half empty. I'm the son of an engineer: the glass is twice as big as it needs to be. Then it is twice as full! My dad died at age 58, my mum died at age 70. Neither were healthy people. So how come I am not as pessimistic as you? You haven't seen my in-laws; she's crippled with arthritis and has advanced alzheimers, he's diabetic and the caregiver. Are you trying to convince me that life sucks? It'll never work because I just don't 'see' the sucky bits. I only 'see' the good bits.

OK, but at least it doesn't sound like longevity runs in your
family, so the threat is much reduced.

Seriously, I'm a SysAdmin for a network of 80+ development systems
running deviants of Unix; as part of that work I deal with the
security issues and development programmers who should *not* have
root (administrator) privilege because they're not competent to
exercise them... but they _need_ them and so I have to. I daily
face all three of Murphy's Laws, and have done so (even when I
was a developer) for years.

*SIGH*

Maybe I'm competent at this work *because* I face the dark side
of things already. In order to minimize the impact of failures,
one must be prepared for them... which means a certain level of
expectation...

(Hmmmmm... Stop it, you're making me *think*... where'd all
this smoke come from?) :-)

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup@softhome.net | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
"Do these pants make my penis look small?"

In article <bege6e$4nodn$1@ID-123442.news.dfncis.de>, Tai
<tainuiti@yahoo.com> wrote:
BTW, the question I asked you about your wife being the light of your life or the cross you have to bear may have sounded flippant but it was genuine. I really can't tell which it is.

I missed it Tai. But I googled for it to see exactly what you said.
She is not the light of my life right now.
I wish she were. Sincerely.
Although the thought has fleetingly crossed my mind, I don't think of
her as my cross to bear either. Our therapist calls us "worhty
opponents" -- I don't like that either. Most often, sadly, I've
thought of her as my jailor -- something keeping me in a prison. But
that isn't quite right either. Perhaps that's something I need to
mediate about -- if i can come up with the right image, maybe that will
point the way. (At one early session we talked about me being a
ballloon and her the string keeping me from blowing away in the wind,
although we differed about whether she was the string or the hand
holding it.)

Ted

In article <ro65mcxj2s.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu>, Doug Anderson
<ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> writes: WhansaMi wrote:>>> You should also be able to trust that your wife won't>>> shred you into tiny ribbons for expressing your feelings>>> or thoughts.>>> And if you can't?>> Well, then, I would have to ask why you're still married> to someone who would be that cruel to you. Heck, Ted, I> won't even *socialize* with someone who would do that to> me, let alone share my whole life with them.>> Tracey Ted, I'm wondering the same thing. In the "how did you know this was the 'one'?" thread, you seem to indicate that you feel a great connection to your wife. I really don't see how you can feel that way, when, simultaneously, you don't feel you can trust her not to be cruel to you. Can you help me to understand? Waiting with baited breath for the answer to this..... I think he already said he won't answer this, and it is something private between Ted and Mrs Ted.

Doug's right. But I wouldn't say my fear is that she'll be cruel, for
that implies malicious intent -- but I do fear she will not take it
well and will react hurtfully out of some kind of instinct.

Ted

Jack C Lipton wrote: Seriously, I'm a SysAdmin for a network of 80+ development systems running deviants of Unix; as part of that work I deal with the security issues and development programmers who should *not* have root (administrator) privilege because they're not competent to exercise them... but they _need_ them and so I have to. I daily face all three of Murphy's Laws, and have done so (even when I was a developer) for years.

Will your programmer customers accept "sudo" scripts?
Also, isn't using the word "deviants" with UNIX redundant? :-)
--
Tsam
employed here for 67 more days, IIUC

"Jack C Lipton" <cupasoup@softhome.net> wrote in Maybe I'm competent at this work *because* I face the dark side of things already. In order to minimize the impact of failures, one must be prepared for them... which means a certain level of expectation... (Hmmmmm... Stop it, you're making me *think*... where'd all this smoke come from?) :-)

You just told me something very positive about your life. Wow! You are
talented and successful. Good for you.

You reckon your success could be due to your pessimistic expectations of
failure? I reckon its due to your courage - courage that failure won't hold
you back. Part of being a positive thinker is facing your fears and
imagining how you will survive. You are more positive than you think!

Amy

"Seeker" <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message
news:090720032337240524%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com... In article <ro65mcxj2s.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu>, Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote: "Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> writes: WhansaMi wrote: >>>> You should also be able to trust that your wife won't >>>> shred you into tiny ribbons for expressing your feelings >>>> or thoughts. >> >>> And if you can't? >> >> Well, then, I would have to ask why you're still married >> to someone who would be that cruel to you. Heck, Ted, I >> won't even *socialize* with someone who would do that to >> me, let alone share my whole life with them. >> >> Tracey > > Ted, I'm wondering the same thing. In the "how did you know this
was > the 'one'?" thread, you seem to indicate that you feel a great > connection to your wife. I really don't see how you can feel that > way, when, simultaneously, you don't feel you can trust her not to
be > cruel to you. > > Can you help me to understand? Waiting with baited breath for the answer to this..... I think he already said he won't answer this, and it is something private between Ted and Mrs Ted. Doug's right. But I wouldn't say my fear is that she'll be cruel, for that implies malicious intent -- but I do fear she will not take it well and will react hurtfully out of some kind of instinct.

What's the worst that could happen, Ted? Really, would it be so bad?

Amy

Tsam Nami wrote: Jack C Lipton wrote: Seriously, I'm a SysAdmin for a network of 80+ development systems running deviants of Unix; as part of that work I deal with the security issues and development programmers who should *not* have root (administrator) privilege because they're not competent to exercise them... but they _need_ them and so I have to. I daily face all three of Murphy's Laws, and have done so (even when I was a developer) for years. Will your programmer customers accept "sudo" scripts?

Nope, they need to install/remove s/w and need to jump into DB2
instances. ICK. (I avoid the MiddleWare since that's a huge
time sink because once you become an SME you're screwed... and
not the way we _want_ to be in this group...)
Also, isn't using the word "deviants" with UNIX redundant? :-)

I've prefered to refer to avoid the use "derivative" since using
"deviant" is a *lot* more fun.

"Hey, Jack, how's the Unix project going?"

(falsetto voice) "It's going fine..."

I've dealt with Xenix, SysIII, SysV (2, 3 and 4), Berserkeley,
SCO (ick these days), Solaris, LynxOS, QNX (another ick), Linux
and even AIX. I've done device drivers, performance analysis &
tuning, text-based user interfaces and various kinds of support
work. I've been around... which helps when I've gotta create
something new to keep the labspace running. (I manage my own
DNS servers, too, and wrote scripts to simplify the map genning
files.)

So, yes, I've faced Murphy, know I can't win, so I take the
concession prize and eke out a semblance of productivity.

The biggest problem w/ a SysAdmin slot is that the better you
do your job the less visible you are to management; visibility
means you screwed something up.

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup@softhome.net | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
"Do these pants make my penis look small?"

"Jack C Lipton" <cupasoup@softhome.net> wrote in message
news:slrnbgscb1.9cm.cupasoup@soup2nets.net.dhis.or g... Amy Lou wrote: Jack C Lipton wrote: Maybe I'm competent at this work *because* I face the dark side of things already. In order to minimize the impact of failures, one must be prepared for them... which means a certain level of expectation... (Hmmmmm... Stop it, you're making me *think*... where'd all this smoke come from?) :-) You just told me something very positive about your life. Wow! You are talented and successful. Good for you. The weak link here is that I seldom *feel* like a success; the necessary channels to provide feedback of success in other people's eyes were poisoned early on. I cannot handle compliments well, especially from female managers, I get *very* paranoid. "Paranoia? Ours goes to 11." You reckon your success could be due to your pessimistic expectations of failure? I reckon its due to your courage - courage that failure won't hold you back. Part of being a positive thinker is facing your fears and imagining how you will survive. I tend to lean towards "inertia", though my resume would not tend to lend itself to that word since I've worked in a LOT of different fields and that has helped me in my work (being a JOAT is not all bad except at review time... since a lot of what I do is less visible). You are more positive than you think! If so, I must stop doing that right away! :-) :-) Seriously I handle my work life fairly well; it's my personal life that is the killer. As a techie my personality runs into shallowness since I can handles ones and zeroes (after all, even if I guess I have a 50% chance of being right) because the answer is not some "shade of gray" implicit in inter-human transactions.

Objective vs. subjective. Control?
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup@softhome.net |
http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/ "Do these pants make my penis look small?"

urf wrote: Objective vs. subjective. Control?

Perhaps there is something to that... I seldom can feel
like I've got influence (much less control) outside the
workplace.

And that might be part of it... I'm often just a wee
hydrogen atom floating in the solar wind, buffeted by
the various fields I run across...

I suspect being taught "the universe doesn't revolve
around you" went much further so I often feel that there
is no place for me in the Universe. When it comes to
computers I guess the move into being a SysAdmin comes
from a need to control something in my environment, and
root privileges grant me that illusion.

So in my personal life I have little influence, no real
"control" so my work life provides that for me.

But... why would I really need control? Or is that a
foundation for my identity? After all, within my own
marriage, I have to functionally fight to have control
over *my own* actions...

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup@softhome.net | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
"Do these pants make my penis look small?"

In article <wvmPa.5728$oN.243776@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>, Amy Lou
<amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote:
What's the worst that could happen, Ted? Really, would it be so bad?

You're the one who's espousing empathy.
What do *you* think the worst could be?

Ted

"Seeker" <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message
news:110720030001242988%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com... In article <wvmPa.5728$oN.243776@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>, Amy Lou <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote: What's the worst that could happen, Ted? Really, would it be so bad? You're the one who's espousing empathy. What do *you* think the worst could be?

She'd divorce you?

Amy

Amy Lou wrote: "Seeker" <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message news:110720030001242988%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com... In article <wvmPa.5728$oN.243776@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>, Amy Lou <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote: What's the worst that could happen, Ted? Really, would it be so bad? You're the one who's espousing empathy. What do *you* think the worst could be? She'd divorce you? Amy

Not likely if there's so much codependency (which there appears to be).

"Bill" <nowhere@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:RcOPa.96375$Io.8310175@newsread2.prod.itd.ear thlink.net... Amy Lou wrote: "Seeker" <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message news:110720030001242988%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com... In article <wvmPa.5728$oN.243776@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>, Amy Lou <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote:> What's the worst that could happen, Ted? Really, would it be so bad? You're the one who's espousing empathy. What do *you* think the worst could be? She'd divorce you? Amy Not likely if there's so much codependency (which there appears to be).
OK then she'd slap him across the face?

Amy

Amy Lou wrote: "Bill" <nowhere@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:RcOPa.96375$Io.8310175@newsread2.prod.itd.ear thlink.net... Amy Lou wrote: "Seeker" <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message news:110720030001242988%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com...> In article <wvmPa.5728$oN.243776@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>, Amy Lou> <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote:>>> What's the worst that could happen, Ted? Really, would it be so bad?>> You're the one who's espousing empathy.> What do *you* think the worst could be? She'd divorce you? Amy Not likely if there's so much codependency (which there appears to be). OK then she'd slap him across the face? Amy

She'd withdraw even more? Although I'm not sure how that would even be
possible, given what Ted has said already. Still, ANY action takes *courage*
and spine.

In article <RcOPa.96375$Io.8310175@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlin k.net>,
Bill <nowhere@earthlink.net> wrote:
Not likely if there's so much codependency (which there appears to be).

Could you elaborate on how you came to that conclusion and what you
mean by "codependency?" (Let me warn you that I view the concept of
codepedency a little bit like that of phlogiston or the ether -- ideas
that didn't stand up to closer scrutinty.)

Ted

In article <8jNPa.6266$oN.276920@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>, Amy Lou
<amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote:
"Seeker" <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message news:110720030001242988%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com... In article <wvmPa.5728$oN.243776@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>, Amy Lou <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote: What's the worst that could happen, Ted? Really, would it be so bad? You're the one who's espousing empathy. What do *you* think the worst could be? She'd divorce you?
In article <BPQPa.131$k57.2798@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>, Amy Lou
<amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote:
OK then she'd slap him across the face?

Is that all the better you can do? Let's try a little creativity, OK?

Ted

Seeker wrote: Jack C Lipton wrote: Ted... I didn't read it that way, but then I didn't feel like I was under attack. I didn't feel like I was under attack either -- but like I how I felt when I was a freshman at college and my roommates and I had been up all night solving the problems of the universe our first day there -- and our upperclassman advisor (who could hear us through the wall) condescendingly said something like, "I got over all that too when I was a freshman."

Usually that kind of philosphizing, IIRC that long ago, was
done with the assistance of a smoking weed... which I never
got into. (I recall that one upperclassman got me stoned...
and never bothered again. "You... are the only person I
have ever met who seemed perfectly straight while ripped to
the tits".)

I got used to getting cut down a lot younger, having older
siblings (two sisters who made sure I was marriagable since
I know how to handle a toilet seat; I don't recall the
training so it must've been when I was too young to recall
more abstract events).

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup@softhome.net | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
"Do these pants make my penis look small?"

"Seeker" <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message
news:120720031924000131%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com... In article <slrnbh0n54.j89.cupasoup@soup2nets.net.dhis.org>, Jack C Lipton <cupasoup@softhome.net> wrote: Ted... I didn't read it that way, but then I didn't feel like I was under attack. I didn't feel like I was under attack either -- but like I how I felt when I was a freshman at college and my roommates and I had been up all night solving the problems of the universe our first day there -- and our upperclassman advisor (who could hear us through the wall) condescendingly said something like, "I got over all that too when I was a freshman." Ted

Was he right?

In article <jaudnUwxZfL2h4-iXTWJhQ@comcast.com>, urf <urf@nospam.com>
wrote:
Was he right?

Not really -- I'm still trying to solve the problems of the universe!

Ted

In article <slrnbh462f.7uk.cupasoup@soup2nets.net.dhis.org>, Jack C
Lipton <cupasoup@softhome.net> wrote:
Usually that kind of philosphizing, IIRC that long ago, was done with the assistance of a smoking weed... which I never got into. (I recall that one upperclassman got me stoned... and never bothered again. "You... are the only person I have ever met who seemed perfectly straight while ripped to the tits".)
We weren't into either grass or heavily into booze, although it's
possible we'd had a few beers. My serious drinking didn't start until
years later.
I got used to getting cut down a lot younger, having older siblings (two sisters who made sure I was marriagable since I know how to handle a toilet seat; I don't recall the training so it must've been when I was too young to recall more abstract events).

I was the oldest and somewhat favored as well. So I've never got used
to "getting cut down."!

Ted

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> writes:
I don't know everyone's statistics, you know age, children, years married, 1st marriage 2nd, 3rd and so on. I simply haven't paid close attention to details like that. That's me. I assume that Jack is middle-aged (correct?). I remember going through a period of my middle age (just a few years ago) where I was vaguely dissatisfied with a lot of things about my life. I thought about it and thought about it. I did what a lot of guys do. I bought a Corvette, I fantasized about every attractive woman I met each day. Actually I did that before mid life and it continues to this day so that may not count.

I was gonna say - if this is a sign of mid-life crisis, I've _always_
been in mid-life crisis!
Basically the sum of my the wrestling with myself came down to dying. I could see the end of life and what have I made of mine. I felt compelled to find rationales to ease my mind and allow me to love myself rather than dislike myself for my shortcomings failures. I observed much the same in many friends who are my contemporaries in age as well. When I look in the mirror I don't see the man I thought I was ( or used to be). I have been made to reinvent myself and I'm in that process continually. What I am learning is to be good to myself, to give myself permission, to relish the gifts that time has brought me, to waste as few of the moments left in life as possible, to recognize what is truly important in life and most of all to live in the NOW.

So I would put this differently but in a way which is related.

To me the mid-life crisis is about realizing that you are _living_
your life, not preparing for it. Along with this comes the need to
understand if you are living the life you want to live and either
liking the life you have, or finding a way to make your life
more like what you want.

"Doug Anderson" <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:povfu567qr.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu... "urf" <urf@nospam.com> writes:
So I would put this differently but in a way which is related. To me the mid-life crisis is about realizing that you are _living_ your life, not preparing for it. Along with this comes the need to understand if you are living the life you want to live and either liking the life you have, or finding a way to make your life more like what you want.

Well said.

In article <povfu567qr.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu>, Doug Anderson
<ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote:
To me the mid-life crisis is about realizing that you are _living_ your life, not preparing for it. Along with this comes the need to understand if you are living the life you want to live and either liking the life you have, or finding a way to make your life more like what you want.

What if it looks like there is *no* way to make your life that way?
I've come to the point of recognziing what I like and don't like
about the life I'm living -- what I haven't come to terms with is
the real possibility there isn't a darn thing I can do about
making it into one I want to live and that I just have to accept
what I have.

Ted

In article <0czQa.15890$Kw1.9618@nwrdny02.gnilink.net>, urf
<urf@nospam.com> wrote:
I am married to Estelle. We will be married for 37 years this Oct. It was love at 1st sight. We are a passionate couple. We have 3 sons, 3 d-i-l's and 2 grandchildren. We are a social couple and enjoy close friendships. Some of the couples we are friends with have been in our circle for 35 years or more. We are old hippies, we work together at our business. We excersise together regularly and both of us are in pretty good shape. Estelle is an extremely dedicated person who is in the upper 5% of women her age in appearance and physicality. She is a fine person of the highest order.


Hmmmm. Any problems in all those 37 years? If so, how did you
overcome them?
If not, what do you bring to the table here -- why weren't there any?

Has Estelle always been able and willing to meet your needs for
physical and emotional intimacy?

Ted

In article <DgGQa.4437$wU5.4198@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, Amy Lou
<amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote:
She'd tell you that you are just pissed off and behaving badly. Then she would tell you to grow up and stop *****ing. In other words she wouldn't hear your complaints at all she would only hear you thrashing out at her and so she would thrash back at you. Getting closer?

I have no idea. More than likely she'd go to the bedroom and close the
door. (retreat into her cave.) That's what happened when I asked her
to come to therapy with me (after some tears and I believe an honest
expression of surprise "I thought we were both happy.") And then
forget at all happened, except when immediate action (actually going)
was required.

Ted

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:<0czQa.15890$Kw1.9618@nwrdny02.gnilink.net>...
BTW, you should rethink * no reinventing*, if going from drunk to sober is not reinventing yourself then what is.

(forgot to reply to this the first time around)

Reinventing sort of implies a conscious, deliberate act, with some goal
in mind -- all I did was see a room full of people who were sober and
happy, was able to identify with enough of their stories of how they'd
been when they weren't, and so followed the suggestions to do what they
did -- the magnificent results (other than staying sober) weren't at
all part of the plan! Unfortunately, neither was being able to
realize why I was unhappy -- the story I'd been told was that all my
unhappiness was because I was a drunk -- everything was my fault and
that once I cleaned up my act things would turn around. They haven't.

Ted

In article <19znjgvf1y.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu>, Doug Anderson
<ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote:
Then you aren't considering enough possiblities.

Which ones aren't I considering?

Ted

Doug Anderson wrote: Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> writes: In article <povfu567qr.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu>, Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote: To me the mid-life crisis is about realizing that you are _living_ your life, not preparing for it. Along with this comes the need to understand if you are living the life you want to live and either liking the life you have, or finding a way to make your life more like what you want. What if it looks like there is *no* way to make your life that way? Then you aren't considering enough possiblities.

Exactly - BUT that assumes one is open to seeing and receiving them, and not
staying locked in martydom. A *big* assumption - evidently.

In article <slrnbh6sjc.8gp.cupasoup@soup2nets.net.dhis.org>, Jack C
Lipton <cupasoup@softhome.net> wrote:
So, for whatever reason, I have not considered myself capable of successfully competing in "mating rituals"; heck, my one relationship grew out of a blind date, so I faced damn near zero in terms of competition.

Me too, but that's never stopped me from looking or fantasizing. On
the other hand, I did have several girls as friends going through high
school -- just never dated them -- so at least I didn't view myself as
some kind of unapproachable ogre.

Ted

Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> writes:
In article <kdisq41m0p.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu>, Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote: Seeker <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> writes: In article <19znjgvf1y.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu>, Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote: > Then you aren't considering enough possiblities. Which ones aren't I considering? How would I know? I'll tell you two though: - divorce - pulling the band-aid off sharply and then dealing with the results with integrity. You know that the first one is not up for consideration and that it's

As I said, you aren't considering enough possibilities.
the second one that I'm sitting on the fence on, so I *have* considered it. Any others? (yes, I've also considered considered doing nothing, learning how to be celebate, dropping all women friends and all helping relationships with women, or cancelling the therapy, or some combination of the above, but I think I've said all that too.)

I don't know what the others are. There is no way I can know what the
possibilities are for your life, especially when I don't even know how
you want your life to be different.

You asked for possibilities you aren't considering, and I gave you
two. I'm sure there are lots more (running away to join an ashram in
Massachusetts, becoming an itinerant radish salesman, whatever) but
_I_ can't identify them for you in a useful way - that has to be your
work.

"Seeker" <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message
news:140720031937073511%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com... In article <DgGQa.4437$wU5.4198@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, Amy Lou <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote: She'd tell you that you are just pissed off and behaving badly. Then she would tell you to grow up and stop *****ing. In other words she wouldn't hear your complaints at all she would only hear you thrashing out at her
and so she would thrash back at you. Getting closer? I have no idea. More than likely she'd go to the bedroom and close the door. (retreat into her cave.) That's what happened when I asked her to come to therapy with me (after some tears and I believe an honest expression of surprise "I thought we were both happy.") And then forget at all happened, except when immediate action (actually going) was required.

You are scared to tell your wife the truth because this is how she might
react? Why is this so terrifying?

Amy

"shinypenny" <shinypenny0001@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c8cb5319.0307141507.4c62aea0@posting.google.c om... "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:<0czQa.15890$Kw1.9618@nwrdny02.gnilink.net>... I am married to Estelle. We will be married for 37 years this Oct. It
was love at 1st sight. We are a passionate couple. We have 3 sons, 3 d-i-l's and 2 grandchildren. We are a social couple and enjoy close friendships.
Some of the couples we are friends with have been in our circle for 35 years
or more. We are old hippies, we work together at our business. We excersise
together regularly and both of us are in pretty good shape. Estelle is an
extremely dedicated person who is in the upper 5% of women her age in appearance and physicality. She is a fine person of the highest order. Urf, I so admire you and your marriage. Glad you are on the group. :-) I am curious - did you and Estelle ever take the temperament test? I would love to know your type and hers. (I have my guesses).

No. We never did. I don't think we ever would either. What would the point
be?
My replay was directed to Jack. I suppose it is a shortcoming of usenet that misdirection's like this are inevitable. BTW, you should rethink * no reinventing*, if going from drunk to sober is not reinventing yourself then what is. My thought too! jen

"Seeker" <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message
news:140720031852332829%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com... In article <povfu567qr.fsf@noether.uoregon.edu>, Doug Anderson <ethelthelog@yahoo.com> wrote: To me the mid-life crisis is about realizing that you are _living_ your life, not preparing for it. Along with this comes the need to understand if you are living the life you want to live and either liking the life you have, or finding a way to make your life more like what you want. What if it looks like there is *no* way to make your life that way? I've come to the point of recognziing what I like and don't like about the life I'm living -- what I haven't come to terms with is the real possibility there isn't a darn thing I can do about making it into one I want to live and that I just have to accept what I have. Ted

or negotiate an agreement within yourself to change some things
and accept others.

Isn't that part of a *prayer*?

"Seeker" <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message
news:140720031854088559%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com... In article <0czQa.15890$Kw1.9618@nwrdny02.gnilink.net>, urf <urf@nospam.com> wrote: I am married to Estelle. We will be married for 37 years this Oct. It
was love at 1st sight. We are a passionate couple. We have 3 sons, 3 d-i-l's and 2 grandchildren. We are a social couple and enjoy close friendships.
Some of the couples we are friends with have been in our circle for 35 years
or more. We are old hippies, we work together at our business. We excersise
together regularly and both of us are in pretty good shape. Estelle is an
extremely dedicated person who is in the upper 5% of women her age in appearance and physicality. She is a fine person of the highest order. Hmmmm. Any problems in all those 37 years? If so, how did you overcome them? If not, what do you bring to the table here -- why weren't there any?

Perhaps what I bring is the "How to do it right" aspect of relationships.
Maybe I know something that you don't, like Mother Theresa might
know something that I don't know.
Has Estelle always been able and willing to meet your needs for physical and emotional intimacy?
Ted

We have never had any problems in our marriage. Anything that has happened,
has happened *to us* not between us. We face the world as a team. We
often described ourselves to others as a team of plow horses. There have
been times over the years when things could have gone bad. In those times
one of us (usually Estelle) had the good sense to bring awareness into the
others life. It is one of the main functions we serve for each other. We are
two people acting to the benefit of the whole of our family.

Estelle has always been my equal in every way. We satisfy each others needs.

As a young man I had one criteria for my choice of life mate. I wanted
someone
who wanted me as much as I wanted them. In the times before I met Estelle,
that
philosophy was tested. That is why when I met Estelle I knew in an instant
that she
was the one for me. I can still remember how hard my heart beat when we
first
kissed. From that moment there was no looking back.

urf wrote: The more I listen to you Jack, the more I understand you.

I'm not sure which of us should be more worried.

--
Jack C Lipton | cupasoup@softhome.net | http://www.asstr.org/~CupaSoup/
"Do these pants make my penis look small?"

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:<lbTQa.3190$LW3.213@nwrdny02.gnilink.net>...
I am curious - did you and Estelle ever take the temperament test? I would love to know your type and hers. (I have my guesses). No. We never did. I don't think we ever would either. What would the point be?


Only to satisfy my curiousity.

jen

In article <fmSQa.5383$wU5.1593@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, Amy Lou
<amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote:
"Seeker" <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message I have no idea. More than likely she'd go to the bedroom and close the door. (retreat into her cave.) That's what happened when I asked her to come to therapy with me (after some tears and I believe an honest expression of surprise "I thought we were both happy.") And then forget at all happened, except when immediate action (actually going) was required. You are scared to tell your wife the truth because this is how she might react? Why is this so terrifying?

This time I wouldn't expect her to forget it.

Ted

In article <VETQa.1161$I4.33@nwrdny01.gnilink.net>, urf
<urf@nospam.com> wrote:
or negotiate an agreement within yourself to change some things and accept others. Isn't that part of a *prayer*?

You may be overlooking the most difficult part of that prayer:
"the wisdom to discern the one from the other."

Ted

In article <8WTQa.1170$I4.830@nwrdny01.gnilink.net>, urf
<urf@nospam.com> wrote:
Perhaps what I bring is the "How to do it right" aspect of relationships. Maybe I know something that you don't, like Mother Theresa might know something that I don't know.
Thinking about writing a book? We have never had any problems in our marriage. Anything that has happened, has happened *to us* not between us. We face the world as a team. We often described ourselves to others as a team of plow horses.

If pressed, we'd probably describe ourselves as a couple of stubborn
mules.

There have been times over the years when things could have gone bad. In those times one of us (usually Estelle) had the good sense to bring awareness into the others life. It is one of the main functions we serve for each other. We are two people acting to the benefit of the whole of our family. Estelle has always been my equal in every way. We satisfy each others needs.
You are very fortunate.
As a young man I had one criteria for my choice of life mate. I wanted someone who wanted me as much as I wanted them. In the times before I met Estelle, that philosophy was tested. That is why when I met Estelle I knew in an instant that she was the one for me. I can still remember how hard my heart beat when we first kissed. From that moment there was no looking back.

Neither one of us tested anything of substance against anyone before we
met. Probably a big mistake.

Ted

"urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote in message news:<D6%Qa.177$634.149@nwrdny03.gnilink.net>... Our life is based on being "cool". What type would that be?


The same type as me!

jen

"Seeker" <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message
news:150720032324224719%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com... In article <fmSQa.5383$wU5.1593@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, Amy Lou <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote: "Seeker" <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message I have no idea. More than likely she'd go to the bedroom and close
the door. (retreat into her cave.) That's what happened when I asked
her to come to therapy with me (after some tears and I believe an honest expression of surprise "I thought we were both happy.") And then forget at all happened, except when immediate action (actually going) was required. You are scared to tell your wife the truth because this is how she might react? Why is this so terrifying? This time I wouldn't expect her to forget it.

Isn't that the whole point of telling her? Its expected she'd be hurt and
its expected she will react badly but its also expected (and I would think
hoped) that she will understand (and remember) eventually.

Amy

Amy Lou wrote: "Seeker" <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message news:150720032324224719%anon-30263@anon.twwells.com... In article <fmSQa.5383$wU5.1593@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, Amy Lou <amylouisa@bigpond.com> wrote: "Seeker" <anon-30263@anon.twwells.com> wrote in message>> I have no idea. More than likely she'd go to the bedroom and close the> door. (retreat into her cave.) That's what happened when I asked her> to come to therapy with me (after some tears and I believe an honest> expression of surprise "I thought we were both happy.") And then> forget at all happened, except when immediate action (actually going)> was required. You are scared to tell your wife the truth because this is how she might react? Why is this so terrifying? This time I wouldn't expect her to forget it. Isn't that the whole point of telling her? Its expected she'd be hurt and its expected she will react badly but its also expected (and I would think hoped) that she will understand (and remember) eventually. Amy

Perhaps one has to have that degree of confidence. (Probably) Ted doesn't
have that at this late stage. That's only a guess, though.

In article <IqqRa.6082$Mc.506461@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink. net>,
Bill <nowhere@earthlink.net> wrote:
Perhaps one has to have that degree of confidence. (Probably) Ted doesn't have that at this late stage. That's only a guess, though.

But an accurate one. We've established she's a tough cookie. But we
don't know whether that's tough like steel -- able to bend and recover
-- or like glass -- to be shattered and never recover. I really don't
know and that's what scares me.

Ted

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 22:20:19 GMT, "urf" <urf@nospam.com> wrote:
Our life is based on being "cool". What type would that be?

Huh.

My life is based on trying to play it cool. Hers is based on observing
how amusing it is when somebody worries all the time about trying to
play it cool. :-)

- Randy

I'm not sure that I can define *being cool*.

I know it when I see it and I know it when I'm not being.

Maybe one of the most important talents I posses as
a person is my ability to tune into my own behavior.

That is not to say I can always make myself behave the way I ought.

It is as though I had another me sitting on my shoulder just like
in the cartoon. I call him "The Observer". He watches me live.
I'm often aware of his pressence. I am working towards acknowledgement
of The Observer while simultaneously not allowing The Observer to be
my judge.


"Tai" <tainuiti@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:bf7n3n$c4fad$1@ID-123442.news.uni-berlin.de... urf wrote: Our life is based on being "cool". What type would that be? LOL This really made me smile. Our life is based on ignoring the concept of "cool" almost entirely! Tai (suspecting our definitions of 'cool' differ)