Has anyone ever heard of a Tri-State adoption. Where you do not finalize in
the state you reside or the state you are adopting from but actualy finalize in
the state of utah?? This is what we are being told to do by our agency I trust
them but had just not ever heard of this until the last week or so.

>Has anyone ever heard of a Tri-State adoption. Where you do not finalize inthe state you reside or the state you are adopting from but actualy finalizeinthe state of utah?? This is what we are being told to do by our agency Itrustthem but had just not ever heard of this until the last week or so.


Ask the agency point blank the reason for adopting in Utah if neither you nor
the mother live their. It sounds to me as if it's intended to evade the laws
of another state, probably having to do with the father of the child.

I assume you're also represented by an attorney. Ask him or her the same
question.

J.




Reply to jmhjmd at aol.

>Ask the agency point blank the reason for adopting in Utah if neither you northe mother live their.

Live their what, dummy?

J.

It sounds to me as if it's intended to evade the lawsof another state, probably having to do with the father of the child.I assume you're also represented by an attorney. Ask him or her the samequestion.J.Reply to jmhjmd at aol.




Reply to jmhjmd at aol.

"J." <jmdjmh@aol.compostible> wrote in message
news:20040929090940.18151.00003874@mb-m03.aol.com...Ask the agency point blank the reason for adopting in Utah if neither you
northe mother live their. Live their what, dummy? J.

LOL don't be so hard on yourself ;) I frequently type your for you're and
then cringe when I see it in print.

Kathy 1


It sounds to me as if it's intended to evade the lawsof another state, probably having to do with the father of the child.I assume you're also represented by an attorney. Ask him or her the samequestion.J.Reply to jmhjmd at aol. Reply to jmhjmd at aol.

mufan1028@aol.com (Steve) wrote in message news:<20040928224418.19078.00001744@mb-m29.aol.com>... Has anyone ever heard of a Tri-State adoption. Where you do not finalize in the state you reside or the state you are adopting from but actualy finalize in the state of utah?? This is what we are being told to do by our agency I trust them but had just not ever heard of this until the last week or so.

It's probably a fraudulent adoption scam. When there is fraud
involved, when the agency is planning to coerce the mother, lie to
her, so she thinks she can not back out after birth, they usually send
them to either Utah, Hawaii or Kansas to give birth. Those states
will not return a baby to the mother where fraud or coercion is
involved and have very short waiting periods, so they can actually get
the mother to sign the consent in a drugged and sleep exhausted state,
right after giving birth.

>Subject: Re: Adopting in DecemberFrom: mhjtw@hotmail.com (Melinda Walmsley)Date: 9/29/2004 7:36 AM Mountain Standard TimeMessage-id: <eb5515c9.0409290536.2f62a751@posting.google.com>mufan1028@aol.com (Steve) wrote in messagenews:<20040928224418.19078.00001744@mb-m29.aol.com>... Has anyone ever heard of a Tri-State adoption. Where you do not finalizein the state you reside or the state you are adopting from but actualyfinalize in the state of utah?? This is what we are being told to do by our agency Itrust them but had just not ever heard of this until the last week or so.It's probably a fraudulent adoption scam. When there is fraudinvolved, when the agency is planning to coerce the mother, lie toher, so she thinks she can not back out after birth, they usually sendthem to either Utah, Hawaii or Kansas to give birth. Those stateswill not return a baby to the mother where fraud or coercion isinvolved and have very short waiting periods, so they can actually getthe mother to sign the consent in a drugged and sleep exhausted state,right after giving birth.

Don't forget coercing grandparents....


-------------------------
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail . . . but, a true friend will
be sitting next to you saying, "Damn . . . that was fun!"
-----Unknown

mufan1028@aol.com (Steve) wrote in message news:<20040928224418.19078.00001744@mb-m29.aol.com>... Has anyone ever heard of a Tri-State adoption. Where you do not finalize in the state you reside or the state you are adopting from but actualy finalize in the state of utah?? This is what we are being told to do by our agency I trust them but had just not ever heard of this until the last week or so.

You should contact Mick Fennerty of the FBI in Washington DC. He is
familiar with the adoption fraud situation in Utah, and may be able to
tell you if that particulare agency is currently under investigation.
They go to Utah because they can get away with criminal conduct in
adoptions there, but the FBI is aware of it and gradually moving
forward on investigations.

Melinda Walmsley wrote: mufan1028@aol.com (Steve) wrote in message news:<20040928224418.19078.00001744@mb-m29.aol.com>...Has anyone ever heard of a Tri-State adoption. Where you do not finalize inthe state you reside or the state you are adopting from but actualy finalize inthe state of utah?? This is what we are being told to do by our agency I trustthem but had just not ever heard of this until the last week or so. You should contact Mick Fennerty of the FBI in Washington DC. He is familiar with the adoption fraud situation in Utah, and may be able to tell you if that particulare agency is currently under investigation. They go to Utah because they can get away with criminal conduct in adoptions there, but the FBI is aware of it and gradually moving forward on investigations.

This guy isn't looking under the bed for Commies, Melinda. I actually
think he'll be genuinely surprised to learn that In Utah the bmom can
sign the second the kid pops out and there's no chance in hell she can
ever reverse that...you *do* remember Mark? I've no doubt it's a scam
of some degree or other...if only to cheat the b parents out of having
90 seconds to breathe deeply and realize they just might be good parents
after all. I'm happy to see this pap is at least concerned about what
the real skinny may be in his case.

pb...

>Subject: Re: Adopting in DecemberFrom: lilmtncbn@aol.com (LilMtnCbn)Date: 9/29/04 6:37 AM Pacific Daylight TimeMessage-id: <20040929093745.13199.00001321@mb-m28.aol.com>Subject: Re: Adopting in DecemberFrom: mhjtw@hotmail.com (Melinda Walmsley)Date: 9/29/2004 7:36 AM Mountain Standard TimeMessage-id: <eb5515c9.0409290536.2f62a751@posting.google.com>mufan1028@aol.com (Steve) wrote in messagenews:<20040928224418.19078.00001744@mb-m29.aol.com>... Has anyone ever heard of a Tri-State adoption. Where you do not finalizein the state you reside or the state you are adopting from but actualyfinalize in the state of utah?? This is what we are being told to do by our agency Itrust them but had just not ever heard of this until the last week or so.It's probably a fraudulent adoption scam. When there is fraudinvolved, when the agency is planning to coerce the mother, lie toher, so she thinks she can not back out after birth, they usually sendthem to either Utah, Hawaii or Kansas to give birth. Those stateswill not return a baby to the mother where fraud or coercion isinvolved and have very short waiting periods, so they can actually getthe mother to sign the consent in a drugged and sleep exhausted state,right after giving birth.Don't forget coercing grandparents....

Ah, just the facts,....ma'am!
Kathy

The way I have been made to understand how this Tri State adoption works is
that 24 hours after the birth of the baby the mother will sign papers to
relinquish parental rights under the accordance of the laws of Utah. Even
though she is in NY state. Othewise my wife and I were going to have to stay
within the state for 45 days. Once she signs the papers it is immediate and no
changing of mind. Also, 6 months later we fly to Salt Lake City to appear
before a judge to finalize it all. I was told that the law of Ohio and NY (the
two states in question) were very complex and that doing it this way would save
time and money and be legal and binding.

>Subject: Re: Adopting in DecemberFrom: mufan1028@aol.com (Steve)Date: 9/29/2004 9:39 PM Eastern Standard TimeMessage-id: <20040929213911.15758.00001233@mb-m13.aol.com>The way I have been made to understand how this Tri State adoption works isthat 24 hours after the birth of the baby the mother will sign papers torelinquish parental rights under the accordance of the laws of Utah. Eventhough she is in NY state. Othewise my wife and I were going to have to staywithin the state for 45 days. Once she signs the papers it is immediate andnochanging of mind. Also, 6 months later we fly to Salt Lake City to appearbefore a judge to finalize it all. I was told that the law of Ohio and NY(thetwo states in question) were very complex and that doing it this way wouldsavetime and money and be legal and binding.

A quickie adoption. How expedient. Sometimes the law is an ***.

Don't you think birthmoms should have some time to change their minds? 30 days
minimum, perhaps?

Dad

"Steve" <mufan1028@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040929213911.15758.00001233@mb-m13.aol.com... The way I have been made to understand how this Tri State adoption works
is that 24 hours after the birth of the baby the mother will sign papers to relinquish parental rights under the accordance of the laws of Utah. Even though she is in NY state. Othewise my wife and I were going to have to
stay within the state for 45 days. Once she signs the papers it is immediate
and no changing of mind. Also, 6 months later we fly to Salt Lake City to appear before a judge to finalize it all. I was told that the law of Ohio and NY
(the two states in question) were very complex and that doing it this way would
save time and money and be legal and binding.

I'd really look into this. Utah is considered a baby mill, and some states
have recently set up some very strict laws regarding inter-state adoption
with Utah. The state is a haven for unscrupulous lawyers and agencies that
want to cut corners, especially where the rights of fathers are concerrned.
They ship women in to give birth and ship them back out again right after
birth. I've seen sesveral news articlesl on this lately, but the link below
is the only one I can find.

You might also contact Mary Lib Mooney who is a highly ethical adoption
watchdog. The URL I had for her isn't working ,but maybe you can google
around and find it or somebody here might know how to reach here.

Marley

Here's an article that was recently posted here about Utah

http://www.suntimes.com/output/mitchell/cst-nws-mitch15.html


Every child has a father. And I don't believe that father should be treated
like a mere sperm donor when a mother puts a child up for adoption. But that
is
precisely what is happening in Utah, a state that has the most aggressive
adoption laws in the country.Each year, hundreds of pregnant women go to
Utah
to have their babies. They relinquish their rights as mothers, usually
without
the father's knowledge. Some fathers are trying to fight back.Utah's strict
adoption laws have been challenged by fathers in North Carolina, Alabama and
Arizona. Now they may soon be challenged in Illinois."I think the reading of
the law is too close to the edge for comfort," said Phillip Lowry, a lawyer
who
specializes in adoptions in Utah. "It opens the adoptive parents to
heart-wrenching drama when these natural fathers come out of the
woodwork."After seeing a commercial about The Adoption Center of Choice in
Utah, a 23-year-old Chicago woman who suffers from depression decided to
place
her 7-month-old son with the agency. Eula McNulty became depressed after she
gave birth to her son, but she did not seek medical attention because she
was
overwhelmed by her parental responsibilities, she said. In fact, McNulty
felt
desperate. And the baby's father was in a Louisiana jail."I had gotten so
depressed that I cried all the time," she said. "It was stressful. I went to
my
family and asked them if they could keep him for a while. Everybody said
no."The day after McNulty called The Adoption Center of Choice, she got a
visit
from a social worker with Lutheran Family Services. Two days later, she got
a
call from The Adoption Center asking her to come to Utah. "They assured me
that
the father would be contacted," McNulty said. "I was afraid to tell
him."Grandmother's door openMcNulty had been romantically involved with the
baby's father, Carlos Orr, for six years.Although Orr is in jail, his mother
looked out for his child. Since the paternal grandmother in Chicago was
already
foster mother of two children, her door was always open. But McNulty didn't
tell the grandmother she intended to surrender her baby. And The Adoption
Center of Choice did not contact the child's father. According to Larry
Jenkins, the lawyer representing The Adoption Center of Choice, birth
fathers
do not have to be contacted under certain circumstances. "It really depends
on
how old the kids are, what kind of relationship the kids have had, or if the
birth mom was married. Fathers don't have to be notified if they never
established a relationship with the children," he said.On Dec. 10, 2003,
McNulty flew to Utah using an E-ticket provided by The Adoption Center. One
prospective adoptive family backed out, and McNulty was introduced to
another
on Dec. 12."We all went to dinner that night. They had three kids, and I
felt
comfortable with them," McNulty said. "Basically, he was adopted by the 15th
of
December."She was given an envelope with $1,300 in cash and sent back to
Chicago. McNulty's remorse started the next day."I called Linda [the
adoption
agency's representative] that night and told her I made a mistake. I
shouldn't
have made such a decision so quickly," McNulty said. "She basically told me
to
go to work, get out and go shopping."And, Jenkins explained, "Under Utah
law,
once she signs away her rights, it is effective immediately and cannot be
revoked."Caught up in adoption millIt sounds like non-refundable baby
selling
to me. The idea that an adoption agency would pay mothers cash for their
babies
is abhorrent. McNulty is not the only poor, desperate woman who went to
Utah.
Another woman who is too ashamed to let her name be used took her young
twins
and an infant to that state. She was given $1,800 in cash, supposedly to
cover
her travel and meal expenses. The children's father is fighting to get them
back.I don't know if Utah's adoption law is the latest weapon to be used by
women when their relationships break apart. I hope not.Like hundreds of
other
babies in that state, too many black children are being caught up in this
adoption mill. Obviously, if the fathers had married these mothers in the
first
place, their parental rights could not be trampled upon. "Whatever the
mother
does doesn't affect the father's rights," said a spokesman with the Illinois
Department of Children and Family Services. "The father has to take legal
action to re-establish custody of the child."But that's the Catch-22, isn't
it?
Neither the mother nor the father has the money it takes to wage a custody
battle against upper-middle-class adoptive families. McNulty is filled with
regret, and Orr and his family intend to get the child back."I thought it
would
help me feel better," she said. "I thought it would make it much better for
[the baby]. Half the time now, I don't get out of bed."



Posted for educational purposes only

>The way I have been made to understand how this Tri State adoption works isthat 24 hours after the birth of the baby the mother will sign papers torelinquish parental rights under the accordance of the laws of Utah. Eventhough she is in NY state. Othewise my wife and I were going to have to staywithin the state for 45 days. Once she signs the papers it is immediate andnochanging of mind. Also, 6 months later we fly to Salt Lake City to appearbefore a judge to finalize it all. I was told that the law of Ohio and NY(thetwo states in question) were very complex and that doing it this way wouldsavetime and money and be legal and binding.

Is the plan to fly the woman to Utah to sign the papers? She cannot sign
papers in NY and have the adoption occur under Utah law.

You might want to ask your agency and lawyer about this:

N. Carolina Father Challenges Utah Adoption Law
Ashley E. Broughton - The Salt Lake Tribune

A North Carolina man is challenging Utah's adoption laws in a federal lawsuit,
claiming out-of-state biological fathers are forced to fight for their children
in Utah courts, rather than in their home states.
Frank Osborne of Stanley, N.C., has never even been to Utah, said his attorney,
Phillip Lowry of Provo. But his son was born in Orem, where the mother put him
up for adoption, and under state law that means Osborne had to contest the
proceeding here. Osborne did so in 4th District Court in Provo, asking that the
adoption file be opened and that the court acknowledge it lacked jurisdiction
over his parental rights. But last month, Judge Steven Hansen denied the
request to open the file and found that Osborne had waived any claim to the boy
because he had not established his paternity in compliance with Utah law.
Osborne, however, contends he should not have to establish paternity in Utah
because he, his son and his former girlfriend, the child's mother, all are
residents of North Carolina. The state of North Carolina backs his stance,
saying the infant and his mother, Angela Baker, both received state benefits as
residents. Now Lowry has taken the case to U.S. District Court for Utah,
claiming that Osborne's right to due process under the U.S. Constitution has
been violated by Utah's adoption code and that the code itself is
unconstitutional. "This is a classic Catch-22 that has the practical effect of
extending unconstitutionally the reach of Utah law beyond its borders," the
suit says. "The baby is a North Carolina resident. He's a North Carolina
resident. The mother is a North Carolina resident. Why are we in Utah?" Lowry
said Thursday. But Larry Jenkins, attorney for Adoption Center of Choice in
Orem, which is named as a defendant in the suit, along with the child's
unidentified adoptive parents, said Osborne's position has little merit because
the boy now is in Utah. "What better place to challenge it than here?" Jenkins
said. Osborne and Baker had been living together in North Carolina with her
2-year-old son when she became pregnant in December 2000. After learning of the
pregnancy, Osborne bought a home in Stanley and Baker and her son moved in with
him, court documents state. Baker lived with Osborne throughout her pregnancy,
but flew to Orem, where a doctor induced labor and the baby was born in August
2001. Although Baker had threatened to place the baby for adoption, she
apparently changed her mind, took a bus back to North Carolina with her
children and eventually moved back in with Osborne, the suit says. "The child
was in Utah for one day," it says. Baker and her children lived with Osborne
until December. Even after she moved out, Osborne continued to provide for both
children, court documents say, buying the baby's medical care and supplies and
giving the children Christmas presents. But in January, Baker returned to Orem
and put the infant up for adoption with Adoption Center of Choice. She told
Osborne he had "no chance in hell" of getting the baby back because he could
not fight the state of Utah and win, according to the suit. The baby was placed
with a Utah family. Osborne filed his Utah lawsuit in February, buttressing his
case with letters from the North Carolina Department of Health and Human
Services stating that Baker and the baby received benefits in that state. "It
is our contention that both mother and child have North Carolina residency,"
wrote social work supervisor Patricia Hovis, whose department also contends
that under the Interstate Compact on the Placement of Children, North Carolina
and Utah should have jointly approved the child's movement across state lines
for the adoption. Hansen denied the request to open the adoption file, adding
in his memorandum that without having established paternity rights, Osborne's
consent to the adoption was not required. Courts traditionally have limited
unwed fathers' parental rights, Lowry said, because many fail to support the
mother during her pregnancy or support the child after its birth. "But here we
have a very different situation," Lowry said. "He took care of mom. He took
care of baby. He took care of the baby's half-brother. But everyone is
assuming, and they're branding him as being a deadbeat dad, because he just
happens to fall within the legislative definition of a deadbeat dad. "I don't
think he's a deadbeat dad under the U.S. Constitution," Lowry said. "If he's
not . . . why is he being forced to travel halfway across the country to prove
it?" Jenkins said Osborne was certainly aware the child was born in Utah. But
he had not seen a copy of the federal lawsuit as of Thursday and did not want
to comment further. Said Lowry: "Lawyers who practice in this area have always
wondered whether there was someone out there the law was going to affect, and
all of a sudden everyone was going to stand up and say, 'It's not working for
this person.' "In my opinion, now it's happened," he said. "We've found that
father who's done everything he's supposed to do, except some technicalities
under Utah law. But Utah is the only place where he can make a stand."

http://e-magazine.adoption.com/articles/251/n-carolina-father-challenges-u
tah-adoption-law.php

J.





Reply to jmhjmd at aol.

In article <20040929213911.15758.00001233@mb-m13.aol.com>,
mufan1028@aol.com (Steve) wrote:
The way I have been made to understand how this Tri State adoption works is that 24 hours after the birth of the baby the mother will sign papers to relinquish parental rights under the accordance of the laws of Utah. Even though she is in NY state. Othewise my wife and I were going to have to stay within the state for 45 days. Once she signs the papers it is immediate and no changing of mind. Also, 6 months later we fly to Salt Lake City to appear before a judge to finalize it all. I was told that the law of Ohio and NY (the two states in question) were very complex and that doing it this way would save time and money and be legal and binding.


You are setting yourself up for a terrible situation. I rather suspect
I'll be reading about you in the newspapers in a few years.

What your lawyer is advocating may be technically legal but is frought
with legal problems. And quite frankly, it's blatantly unethical. It's
an end-run around established law, and it's very possible you'll get
burned. See the article J has posted for a reason why.

What you should be doing is:

1) work with an ETHICAL agency

2) work with an ETHICAL lawyer

3) comply with the laws of your state and the Interstate Compact

4) ensure that the prospective birthmother has adequate counseling

5) ensure that she also has access to a lawyer

That way, IF she relinquishes, she'll be doing so because she thinks
it's the right thing to do. That means that the adoption will be solid
and won't be overturned.

A challenged adoption will quickly burn all the time and money you think
you're saving.



steve (an adoptive father)

"Steve" <mufan1028@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040928224418.19078.00001744@mb-m29.aol.com... Has anyone ever heard of a Tri-State adoption. Where you do not finalize
in the state you reside or the state you are adopting from but actualy
finalize in the state of utah?? This is what we are being told to do by our agency I
trust them but had just not ever heard of this until the last week or so.

Fishy fishy fishy. A Tri-State adoption ends in Utah? Wouldn't that just
be a Utah-State adoption? Absolutely, finalize in an adoption-friendly
state.

Deanna


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Miss you, J.

"J." <jmdjmh@aol.compostible> wrote in message
news:20040929090940.18151.00003874@mb-m03.aol.com...Ask the agency point blank the reason for adopting in Utah if neither you
northe mother live their. Live their what, dummy? J. It sounds to me as if it's intended to evade the lawsof another state, probably having to do with the father of the child.I assume you're also represented by an attorney. Ask him or her the samequestion.J.Reply to jmhjmd at aol. Reply to jmhjmd at aol.


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"Melinda Walmsley" <mhjtw@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eb5515c9.0409290536.2f62a751@posting.google.c om... mufan1028@aol.com (Steve) wrote in message
news:<20040928224418.19078.00001744@mb-m29.aol.com>... Has anyone ever heard of a Tri-State adoption. Where you do not
finalize in the state you reside or the state you are adopting from but actualy
finalize in the state of utah?? This is what we are being told to do by our agency
I trust them but had just not ever heard of this until the last week or so. It's probably a fraudulent adoption scam. When there is fraud involved, when the agency is planning to coerce the mother, lie to her, so she thinks she can not back out after birth, they usually send them to either Utah, Hawaii or Kansas to give birth.

Gads, what a load of crap. Why just those 3? I agree that this sounds
suspicious, but come on!

Deanna



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"Melinda Walmsley" <mhjtw@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eb5515c9.0409290543.1e1079ad@posting.google.c om... mufan1028@aol.com (Steve) wrote in message
news:<20040928224418.19078.00001744@mb-m29.aol.com>... Has anyone ever heard of a Tri-State adoption. Where you do not
finalize in the state you reside or the state you are adopting from but actualy
finalize in the state of utah?? This is what we are being told to do by our agency
I trust them but had just not ever heard of this until the last week or so. You should contact Mick Fennerty of the FBI in Washington DC. He is familiar with the adoption fraud situation in Utah, and may be able to tell you if that particulare agency is currently under investigation. They go to Utah because they can get away with criminal conduct in adoptions there, but the FBI is aware of it and gradually moving forward on investigations.

At the risk of enabling a further Canuck/American battle, let me tell you
this:

The FBI in the US has much, much bigger things to worry about. In fact, the
FBI *and* the CIA have decided they don't want any more proof that the
Nigerians are out to scam us all. Adoption issues are just not that
important to the powers that be, and that is exactly why the rest of us are
running about making noise. Let it go, and/or get your facts straight. The
FBI is not moving forward on adoption investigations.

Deanna



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>Is the plan to fly the woman to Utah to sign the papers? She cannot signpapers in NY and have the adoption occur under Utah law.

The palns are for her to sign in NY 24 hours after the delivery. She is
adament that this is what she watns to do also the father of the baby will sign
and is also very strongly supporting the adoption of this child.

>Miss you, J.

And I, you, Miss D.

I hope life is treating you well. It's been a bit bumpy here this past year,
but things are smoothing out of late.

J.
"J." <jmdjmh@aol.compostible> wrote in messagenews:20040929090940.18151.00003874@mb-m03.aol.com...Ask the agency point blank the reason for adopting in Utah if neither younorthe mother live their. Live their what, dummy? J. It sounds to me as if it's intended to evade the lawsof another state, probably having to do with the father of the child.I assume you're also represented by an attorney. Ask him or her the samequestion.J.Reply to jmhjmd at aol. Reply to jmhjmd at aol.---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.771 / Virus Database: 518 - Release Date: 9/29/04




Reply to jmhjmd at aol.

Marley:

Mary Mooney is no longer the owner of the Adoption Guide. She no longer
runs it. The URL has been given to another organization.

She's running an adoption agency in NC now called "Adoption Guides
International".

I think for now she's out of the watchdog game. Just for now, however.

Elizabeth Case

>Is the plan to fly the woman to Utah to sign the papers? She cannot signpapers in NY and have the adoption occur under Utah law.The palns are for her to sign in NY 24 hours after the delivery. She isadament that this is what she watns to do also the father of the baby willsignand is also very strongly supporting the adoption of this child.

It makes no sense to me, Steve. If you ever ask for a better explanation of
this method, let us know what you learn.

J.
Also an adoptive father.



Reply to jmhjmd at aol.

>Subject: Re: Adopting in DecemberFrom: mufan1028@aol.com (Steve)Date: 9/30/2004 6:35 AM Eastern Standard TimeMessage-id: <20040930063532.16600.00001286@mb-m16.aol.com>Is the plan to fly the woman to Utah to sign the papers? She cannot signpapers in NY and have the adoption occur under Utah law.The palns are for her to sign in NY 24 hours after the delivery. She isadament that this is what she watns to do also the father of the baby willsign and is also very strongly supporting the adoption of this child.

For better or worse, funny things happen after the birth of a child no matter
how "resolved" the parties seem to be beforehand. In some cases, we have 72
hours to change our mind when we make a simple purchase like a refridgerator or
a car. Don't you think birthmoms and dads should be afforded the same
protection?

Forget what's strictly "legal" and do the ethical thing, Steve, no matter how
deperate for a baby you might be. You seem like a honest sincere man. I bet
you know what that is.

Dad

>Subject: Re: Adopting in DecemberFrom: mhjtw@hotmail.com (Melinda Walmsley)Date: 9/29/04 9:36 AM Eastern Daylight TimeMessage-id: <eb5515c9.0409290536.2f62a751@posting.google.com>mufan1028@aol.com (Steve) wrote in messagenews:<20040928224418.19078.00001744@mb-m29.aol.com>... Has anyone ever heard of a Tri-State adoption. Where you do not finalizein the state you reside or the state you are adopting from but actualyfinalize in the state of utah?? This is what we are being told to do by our agency Itrust them but had just not ever heard of this until the last week or so.It's probably a fraudulent adoption scam. When there is fraudinvolved, when the agency is planning to coerce the mother, lie toher, so she thinks she can not back out after birth, they usually sendthem to either Utah, Hawaii or Kansas to give birth. Those stateswill not return a baby to the mother where fraud or coercion isinvolved and have very short waiting periods, so they can actually getthe mother to sign the consent in a drugged and sleep exhausted state,right after giving birth.
Read for comprehension. This isn't the relinquishment, this is the adoption
finalization. While I agree it sounds suspicious, it's nothing like forcing a
daughter to relinquish your granddaughter.
Kathy, born Renee Karyn Racine
Baltimore, Here I come

>Subject: Re: Adopting in DecemberFrom: mufan1028@aol.com (Steve)Date: 9/29/04 9:39 PM Eastern Daylight TimeMessage-id: <20040929213911.15758.00001233@mb-m13.aol.com>The way I have been made to understand how this Tri State adoption works isthat 24 hours after the birth of the baby the mother will sign papers torelinquish parental rights under the accordance of the laws of Utah. Eventhough she is in NY state. Othewise my wife and I were going to have to staywithin the state for 45 days. Once she signs the papers it is immediate andnochanging of mind. Also, 6 months later we fly to Salt Lake City to appearbefore a judge to finalize it all. I was told that the law of Ohio and NY(thetwo states in question) were very complex and that doing it this way wouldsavetime and money and be legal and binding.
The laws of Ohio are not all that complex. Ohio will allow the child access to
identifying info when they turn 18. However, Ohio will also allow a few days
for the mother to decide to parent, where as Utah will not. I thought you were
just talking about finalization, not about the relinquishment. This is
obviously a scam used by the agency to make sure they make their money on this
adoption. I wouldn't adopt under Utah law under any circumstances.
Kathy, born Renee Karyn Racine
Baltimore, Here I come

>Subject: Re: Adopting in DecemberFrom: mufan1028@aol.com (Steve)Date: 9/30/04 6:35 AM Eastern Daylight TimeMessage-id: <20040930063532.16600.00001286@mb-m16.aol.com>Is the plan to fly the woman to Utah to sign the papers? She cannot signpapers in NY and have the adoption occur under Utah law.The palns are for her to sign in NY 24 hours after the delivery. She isadament that this is what she watns to do also the father of the baby willsignand is also very strongly supporting the adoption of this child.
So, they will fraudulantly say that they child was born in UT instead of NY.
That doesn't sound a little off to you?
Kathy, born Renee Karyn Racine
Baltimore, Here I come

mufan1028@aol.com (Steve) wrote in message news:<20040930063532.16600.00001286@mb-m16.aol.com>...Is the plan to fly the woman to Utah to sign the papers? She cannot signpapers in NY and have the adoption occur under Utah law. The palns are for her to sign in NY 24 hours after the delivery. She is adament that this is what she watns to do also the father of the baby will sign and is also very strongly supporting the adoption of this child.

Sounds as though you should perhaps talk to another lawyer and check
if this is correct.

If she's signing the papers in NY, how does Utah get involved at all?
If the father is supportive of the adoption plan, then it would seem
you should be able to accomplish this adoption under NY law.

Why go with an adoption that has legal risks? The worst risk you face
now is that this adoption might not happen... which I agree could be
very difficult. But it would be a lot worse if you have the baby for 2
or 3 years, and then there's a successful legal challenge. Think of
*that* trauma.

Rupa
(Adopted mom)

adoptadad@aol.com (AdoptaDad) wrote in message news:<20040930111921.01927.00000957@mb-m23.aol.com>...Subject: Re: Adopting in DecemberFrom: mufan1028@aol.com (Steve)Date: 9/30/2004 6:35 AM Eastern Standard TimeMessage-id: <20040930063532.16600.00001286@mb-m16.aol.com>Is the plan to fly the woman to Utah to sign the papers? She cannot signpapers in NY and have the adoption occur under Utah law.The palns are for her to sign in NY 24 hours after the delivery. She isadament that this is what she watns to do also the father of the baby willsign and is also very strongly supporting the adoption of this child. For better or worse, funny things happen after the birth of a child no matter how "resolved" the parties seem to be beforehand. In some cases, we have 72 hours to change our mind when we make a simple purchase like a refridgerator or a car. Don't you think birthmoms and dads should be afforded the same protection? Forget what's strictly "legal" and do the ethical thing, Steve, no matter how deperate for a baby you might be. You seem like a honest sincere man. I bet you know what that is. Dad

If the birthparents are so adamant what is wrong with going by the
laws of the state you are in?

M

>Subject: Re: Adopting in DecemberFrom: meganmail2000-reps@yahoo.com (megan)Date: 9/30/2004 10:43 PM Eastern Standard TimeMessage-id: <a6ad9aa5.0409301843.39f964df@posting.google.com>adoptadad@aol.com (AdoptaDad) wrote in messagenews:<20040930111921.01927.00000957@mb-m23.aol.com>...Subject: Re: Adopting in DecemberFrom: mufan1028@aol.com (Steve)Date: 9/30/2004 6:35 AM Eastern Standard TimeMessage-id: <20040930063532.16600.00001286@mb-m16.aol.com>>Is the plan to fly the woman to Utah to sign the papers? She cannot sign>papers in NY and have the adoption occur under Utah law.The palns are for her to sign in NY 24 hours after the delivery. She isadament that this is what she watns to do also the father of the baby willsign and is also very strongly supporting the adoption of this child. For better or worse, funny things happen after the birth of a child nomatter how "resolved" the parties seem to be beforehand. In some cases, we have72 hours to change our mind when we make a simple purchase like arefridgerator or a car. Don't you think birthmoms and dads should be afforded the same protection? Forget what's strictly "legal" and do the ethical thing, Steve, no matterhow deperate for a baby you might be. You seem like a honest sincere man. Ibet you know what that is. DadIf the birthparents are so adamant what is wrong with going by thelaws of the state you are in?


Asked and answered. "For better or worse, funny things happen after the
birth of a child no matter how "resolved" the parties seem to be beforehand."

Stats indicate that approx 25% of birthmoms who have made an adoption plan
change their minds after their child is born. If you live in a state where
there is no revocation period AND you have no problem with this, then go for
it.

Dad

"Rupa Bose" <rkbose@pacific.net.sg> wrote in message
news:e5619372.0409300953.14f210da@posting.google.c om... mufan1028@aol.com (Steve) wrote in message
news:<20040930063532.16600.00001286@mb-m16.aol.com>...Is the plan to fly the woman to Utah to sign the papers? She cannot
signpapers in NY and have the adoption occur under Utah law. The palns are for her to sign in NY 24 hours after the delivery. She is adament that this is what she watns to do also the father of the baby
will sign and is also very strongly supporting the adoption of this child. Sounds as though you should perhaps talk to another lawyer and check if this is correct. If she's signing the papers in NY, how does Utah get involved at all? If the father is supportive of the adoption plan, then it would seem you should be able to accomplish this adoption under NY law. Why go with an adoption that has legal risks? The worst risk you face now is that this adoption might not happen... which I agree could be very difficult. But it would be a lot worse if you have the baby for 2 or 3 years, and then there's a successful legal challenge. Think of *that* trauma. Rupa (Adopted mom)

Rupa, you were adopted?! ;)

Kathy 1

> The FBI in the US has much, much bigger things to worry about. In fact, the FBI *and* the CIA have decided they don't want any more proof that the Nigerians are out to scam us all. Adoption issues are just not that important to the powers that be, and that is exactly why the rest of us are running about making noise. Let it go, and/or get your facts straight. The FBI is not moving forward on adoption investigations. Deanna


The FBI has been involved in a lot of the investigations lately into
child trafficking, aka adoption fraud. The marshall Island cases are
currently under FBI investigation. THey have been involved in
shutting down some agencies and DHHS is an active Participant in the
Boren and Boren cases. Mick Fennerty, prior to his promotion to DC
was a field agent who worked on the internet twin case and many others
matters in Utah. They have managed to shut down one Utah agency that
was involved with Guatamala kidnappings for adoption.

Granted, they aren't doing NEARLY enough, but they are aware of the
problems and have limited sources, that are actually working on it.
And fortunately, the man in charge of that end of things in DC is very
familiar with the whole matter, since he has field experience in the
matter.

"kat" <katlat24seeifthishelps@hotmail.com> wrote > > Rupa (Adopted mom) Rupa, you were adopted?! ;) Kathy 1

Only as a mom, by one of my kids.
We adopted the kid, I guess the kid also adopted us. At least, we
haven't been relinquished yet, despite the "Zits" phase...

The other kid was stuck with me anyway.

Rupa

"J." <jmdjmh@aol.compostible> wrote in message
news:20040930090600.22420.00000010@mb-m06.aol.com...Miss you, J. And I, you, Miss D. I hope life is treating you well. It's been a bit bumpy here this past
year, but things are smoothing out of late. J.

I keep trying to come back regularly, and one of these days I'm going to
pull it off. Life is treating me well, absolutely, but I have finally hit
that point where weeks fly by and I think I just talked to someone yesterday
although it was a year ago. I've reached a sad point this week, actually -
I'm so ill that I can't lie down (bronchitis), so it might be a good time to
place bets on exactly when I'll crack & go over the edge (or did I do that
already?).

I really, truly, am off soon to the nether Provinces, but am looking forward
to a more organized life when I get back. A life where I can enjoy my new
worlds without being forced to exclude my old ones. That will be the best,
and it's coming. Soon, I will live somewhere with room for two computers,
and my virus scan will never let me down again.

I hope you're very well - I do truly miss you, along with several others
*who know who they are*. :)

Best always
Deanna


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"Melinda Walmsley" <mhjtw@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eb5515c9.0410011724.feab587@posting.google.co m... The FBI in the US has much, much bigger things to worry about. In fact,
the FBI *and* the CIA have decided they don't want any more proof that the Nigerians are out to scam us all. Adoption issues are just not that important to the powers that be, and that is exactly why the rest of us
are running about making noise. Let it go, and/or get your facts straight.
The FBI is not moving forward on adoption investigations. Deanna The FBI has been involved in a lot of the investigations lately into child trafficking, aka adoption fraud.

No, no you don't, honey.

I did the respectful thing and left your comments in context with the
conversation before replying. You're deliberately twisting something I said
to you (by taking it on alone instead of as an argument against something
you said) into something that cleanly fits your agenda. That's disgusting,
and weak. "Gak! Deanna hates the FBI! "

We have no proof or reason to believe that the original querent was being
exposed to "child trafficking, aka adoption fraud". As far as I could tell,
he just wanted advice because as a human being, he was suspicious of the
proceedings, as would I be, and as I was. Nor do you have any proof that
the comments above are my blanket opinion of United States law enforcement
agencies, but bully for you trying to get me ousted as a dirty Canadian.
Yet, at the bottom of my heart, I want the Canadian military protecting me
*before* they find my birthmother, so I might be a tad biased.

The marshall Island cases are currently under FBI investigation.

Actively? Are you sure they aren't taking a back seat to the security
issues that involve all your citizens?
THey have been involved in shutting down some agencies and DHHS is an active Participant in the Boren and Boren cases. Mick Fennerty, prior to his promotion to DC was a field agent who worked on the internet twin case and many others matters in Utah.

Gee, I apologize. I didn't know he worked on the internet twin case, but it
seems to me he specializes in actual stranger-child abductions. Doesn't he?
</sarcasm>

They have managed to shut down one Utah agency that was involved with Guatamala kidnappings for adoption.

Which one? Granted, they aren't doing NEARLY enough, but they are aware of the problems and have limited sources, that are actually working on it. And fortunately, the man in charge of that end of things in DC is very familiar with the whole matter, since he has field experience in the matter.

Melinda, get some help. I appreciate the dark space you are coming from,
but if you really think your national security agencies care more about a
couple of babies instead of the populace in general, you need to talk to
someone who isn't invested in you. I wish you well, honestly.

Deanna


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"AdoptaDad" <adoptadad@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040930111921.01927.00000957@mb-m23.aol.com...Subject: Re: Adopting in DecemberFrom: mufan1028@aol.com (Steve)Date: 9/30/2004 6:35 AM Eastern Standard TimeMessage-id: <20040930063532.16600.00001286@mb-m16.aol.com>Is the plan to fly the woman to Utah to sign the papers? She cannot
signpapers in NY and have the adoption occur under Utah law.The palns are for her to sign in NY 24 hours after the delivery. She isadament that this is what she watns to do also the father of the baby
willsign and is also very strongly supporting the adoption of this child. For better or worse, funny things happen after the birth of a child no
matter how "resolved" the parties seem to be beforehand. In some cases, we have
72 hours to change our mind when we make a simple purchase like a
refridgerator or a car. Don't you think birthmoms and dads should be afforded the same protection? Forget what's strictly "legal" and do the ethical thing, Steve, no
matter how deperate for a baby you might be. You seem like a honest sincere man. I
bet you know what that is. Dad

Fabulous advice. Everyone wins when the decision-makers feel good about
their choice. Every time.

Deanna


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