NEWS--Bizarre plot told in court [Archive]

Marley Greiner

06-06-2004, 06:04 PM

"Damsel Plum" <amelusine@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c89c3e62.0406052322.1b857d24@posting.google.c om... "Marley Greiner" <maddogmarley@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:<N6kwc.37213$_k3.882788@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>... You need to stick around There somebody here I'd love to see you "talk"
to. Who? I'm bored. Hub took the kids on a boy scout overnight on an aircraft carrier tonight.

Google anything having to do with Safe Haven that involves Ron and me. Far
be it from me to bring up they who's name must not be spoken. For a
fasttrack lesson go to:
http://www.livefromarlington.com/article.php?story=20040510191702101#comments

It's very long, but you can read the last 6-10 posts or so to get an idea of
how Bastard Nation, Ron, and I have been insulted and lied about over the
last 18 months. Did you know that BN bullies and threatens legislators?
We're a bunch of radicals? That BN and the EBD are "closely linked." That
one MA child welfare agency is actually the MA branch of BN. Oh, yeah, to
top if off, I was reported to the police for making threatening remarmks on
aa You and Shea would have loved it.

I"m working on a long scholarly piece on baby dumps, and this will be part
of it.

Marley Damzy

Marley Greiner

06-06-2004, 06:04 PM

Damsel Plum

06-06-2004, 11:08 PM

"Marley Greiner" <maddogmarley@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<RaPwc.16800$Gx4.4187@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
Google anything having to do with Safe Haven that involves Ron and me. Far

Okies. Tomorrow.
be it from me to bring up they who's name must not be spoken. For a

Who - the NCFA?
fasttrack lesson go to: http://www.livefromarlington.com/article.php?story=20040510191702101#comments

Oakies.
It's very long, but you can read the last 6-10 posts or so to get an idea of how Bastard Nation, Ron, and I have been insulted and lied about over the last 18 months. Did you know that BN bullies and threatens legislators?

Uh - yeah. Hahaha. Just kidding.
We're a bunch of radicals? That BN and the EBD are "closely linked." That

Evan B. Donaldson? Why wouldn't you want to be closely linked to
them?
one MA child welfare agency is actually the MA branch of BN. Oh, yeah, to

Kewl.
top if off, I was reported to the police for making threatening remarmks on aa You and Shea would have loved it.

Hey, do you have the threatening remark? Did you go and threaten
someone's sprog?
I"m working on a long scholarly piece on baby dumps, and this will be part of it.

Man, BN going off the wall on babydumps is one of the main reasons I
split, sistah. If someone wants to dump their baby, providing a
responsible out is fine with me, even if some psychos continue to dump
irresponsibly. Yeah, yeah, yeah - I know the whole slippery slope
argument. The whole thing just makes me sick. And I don't see how
someone who rails on against children and family life the way you do
could be considered remotely sympathetic to anything involving the
plight of babies, unwanted or otherwise.

For me, BN was about adoptees coming together from every angle and
persuasion to claim a common culture, and to fight a well-defined
common enemy in attitudes and legislation that denigrate being
adopted.

People have been dumped anonymously forever. People have left false
information on original birth certificates. People who insist on all
births being identified are living a lie, a Logan's Run friggin'
fairytale fantasy that pretends we were wanted by our birthmothers (or
SHOULD have been, dagnabbit - haha). Yeah, yeah, some of us were. I'm
not ready to damn the torpedoes (or the babies) for that pipedream.

There, I said it.

Whatever happened to Open Records for Adult Adoptees as our sole
legislative focus? Congrats on New Hampshire by the way.

Damsel

Damsel Plum

06-06-2004, 11:08 PM

kat

06-07-2004, 03:31 AM

"Damsel Plum" <amelusine@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c89c3e62.0406062208.3c8a675c@posting.google.c om... "Marley Greiner" <maddogmarley@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:<RaPwc.16800$Gx4.4187@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>... Google anything having to do with Safe Haven that involves Ron and me.
Far Okies. Tomorrow. be it from me to bring up they who's name must not be spoken. For a Who - the NCFA? fasttrack lesson go to:
http://www.livefromarlington.com/article.php?story=20040510191702101#comment
s Oakies. It's very long, but you can read the last 6-10 posts or so to get an
idea of how Bastard Nation, Ron, and I have been insulted and lied about over
the last 18 months. Did you know that BN bullies and threatens legislators? Uh - yeah. Hahaha. Just kidding. We're a bunch of radicals? That BN and the EBD are "closely linked."
That Evan B. Donaldson? Why wouldn't you want to be closely linked to them? one MA child welfare agency is actually the MA branch of BN. Oh, yeah,
to Kewl. top if off, I was reported to the police for making threatening remarmks
on aa You and Shea would have loved it. Hey, do you have the threatening remark? Did you go and threaten someone's sprog? I"m working on a long scholarly piece on baby dumps, and this will be
part of it. Man, BN going off the wall on babydumps is one of the main reasons I split, sistah. If someone wants to dump their baby, providing a responsible out is fine with me,

Responsible? That's a matter of opinion.
even if some psychos continue to dump irresponsibly. Yeah, yeah, yeah - I know the whole slippery slope argument. The whole thing just makes me sick. And I don't see how someone who rails on against children and family life the way you do could be considered remotely sympathetic to anything involving the plight of babies, unwanted or otherwise. For me, BN was about adoptees coming together from every angle and persuasion to claim a common culture, and to fight a well-defined common enemy in attitudes and legislation that denigrate being adopted.

Yeah! Screw those future adoptees! All that really matters are the current
adoptees who are being 'denigrated'.
People have been dumped anonymously forever. People have left false information on original birth certificates. People who insist on all births being identified are living a lie, a Logan's Run friggin' fairytale fantasy that pretends we were wanted by our birthmothers (or SHOULD have been, dagnabbit - haha). Yeah, yeah, some of us were. I'm not ready to damn the torpedoes (or the babies) for that pipedream. There, I said it. Whatever happened to Open Records for Adult Adoptees as our sole legislative focus?

Yeah! Screw those future adoptees! Bastard nation should only be concerned
with *current* adoptees. Let those future adoptees fight their own battles
when it's their turn to get their records. Oh wait - they won't be able to.
What the hell. Who cares? Apparently not some current adoptees.

Kathy 1

kat

06-07-2004, 03:31 AM

Marley Greiner

06-07-2004, 05:36 AM

"Damsel Plum" <amelusine@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c89c3e62.0406062208.3c8a675c@posting.google.c om... "Marley Greiner" <maddogmarley@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:<RaPwc.16800$Gx4.4187@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>... Google anything having to do with Safe Haven that involves Ron and me.
Far Okies. Tomorrow. be it from me to bring up they who's name must not be spoken. For a Who - the NCFA? fasttrack lesson go to:
http://www.livefromarlington.com/article.php?story=20040510191702101#comments Oakies. It's very long, but you can read the last 6-10 posts or so to get an
idea of how Bastard Nation, Ron, and I have been insulted and lied about over
the last 18 months. Did you know that BN bullies and threatens legislators? Uh - yeah. Hahaha. Just kidding. We're a bunch of radicals? That BN and the EBD are "closely linked."
That Evan B. Donaldson? Why wouldn't you want to be closely linked to them?

I have no idea. It's amusing that I'm accused of writing the report even
though I wrote a report critical of their report. one MA child welfare agency is actually the MA branch of BN. Oh, yeah,
to Kewl. top if off, I was reported to the police for making threatening remarmks
on aa You and Shea would have loved it. Hey, do you have the threatening remark? Did you go and threaten someone's sprog?

Nah! The cops said if anybody was threatened it was me. I"m working on a long scholarly piece on baby dumps, and this will be
part of it. Man, BN going off the wall on babydumps is one of the main reasons I split, sistah. If someone wants to dump their baby, providing a responsible out is fine with me, even if some psychos continue to dump irresponsibly. Yeah, yeah, yeah - I know the whole slippery slope argument. The whole thing just makes me sick. And I don't see how someone who rails on against children and family life the way you do could be considered remotely sympathetic to anything involving the plight of babies, unwanted or otherwise.

Well, you've been out of it a long time and don't know what's going on.
When NCFA and Bill blatantly say that dumps are the answer to open records
that's something to be involved with. Parallel child welfare systems are
something to be involved with. X programs, where babies are being born
anon. under state facilitation and being adopted are something to be
involved with. There is more and more evidence out there that dumps are
being used as fast-track relinquishment--what Bill liked to call
"non-bureaucratic placement" for those who find traditional relinquishment
too onerous. Dumps are so knotted up with sealed records, it's impossible
to separate them now. It's THE hot button issue. For me, BN was about adoptees coming together from every angle and persuasion to claim a common culture, and to fight a well-defined common enemy in attitudes and legislation that denigrate being adopted.

That's what dumps are about. People have been dumped anonymously forever. People have left false information on original birth certificates. People who insist on all births being identified are living a lie, a Logan's Run friggin' fairytale fantasy that pretends we were wanted by our birthmothers (or SHOULD have been, dagnabbit - haha). Yeah, yeah, some of us were. I'm not ready to damn the torpedoes (or the babies) for that pipedream.

You're absolutley correct, Damz, but the point is, it has not been under
state facilitqtion and encouragement. It wasn't taught in the schools (it's
now part of the CA curriculum--how to abandon your baby), There, I said it. Whatever happened to Open Records for Adult Adoptees as our sole legislative focus? Congrats on New Hampshire by the way. Damsel

Well, you said in New Hampshire. But you can't have generations of anon.
adoptees growing up when the rest of the system is open. It's about
identity rights

Marley

Marley Greiner

06-07-2004, 05:36 AM

"Damsel Plum" <amelusine@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c89c3e62.0406062208.3c8a675c@posting.google.c om... "Marley Greiner" <maddogmarley@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:<RaPwc.16800$Gx4.4187@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>... Google anything having to do with Safe Haven that involves Ron and me.
Far Okies. Tomorrow. be it from me to bring up they who's name must not be spoken. For a Who - the NCFA? fasttrack lesson go to:
http://www.livefromarlington.com/article.php?story=20040510191702101#comments Oakies. It's very long, but you can read the last 6-10 posts or so to get an
idea of how Bastard Nation, Ron, and I have been insulted and lied about over
the last 18 months. Did you know that BN bullies and threatens legislators? Uh - yeah. Hahaha. Just kidding. We're a bunch of radicals? That BN and the EBD are "closely linked."
That Evan B. Donaldson? Why wouldn't you want to be closely linked to them?

I have no idea. It's amusing that I'm accused of writing the report even
though I wrote a report critical of their report. one MA child welfare agency is actually the MA branch of BN. Oh, yeah,
to Kewl. top if off, I was reported to the police for making threatening remarmks
on aa You and Shea would have loved it. Hey, do you have the threatening remark? Did you go and threaten someone's sprog?

Nah! The cops said if anybody was threatened it was me. I"m working on a long scholarly piece on baby dumps, and this will be
part of it. Man, BN going off the wall on babydumps is one of the main reasons I split, sistah. If someone wants to dump their baby, providing a responsible out is fine with me, even if some psychos continue to dump irresponsibly. Yeah, yeah, yeah - I know the whole slippery slope argument. The whole thing just makes me sick. And I don't see how someone who rails on against children and family life the way you do could be considered remotely sympathetic to anything involving the plight of babies, unwanted or otherwise.

Well, you've been out of it a long time and don't know what's going on.
When NCFA and Bill blatantly say that dumps are the answer to open records
that's something to be involved with. Parallel child welfare systems are
something to be involved with. X programs, where babies are being born
anon. under state facilitation and being adopted are something to be
involved with. There is more and more evidence out there that dumps are
being used as fast-track relinquishment--what Bill liked to call
"non-bureaucratic placement" for those who find traditional relinquishment
too onerous. Dumps are so knotted up with sealed records, it's impossible
to separate them now. It's THE hot button issue. For me, BN was about adoptees coming together from every angle and persuasion to claim a common culture, and to fight a well-defined common enemy in attitudes and legislation that denigrate being adopted.

That's what dumps are about. People have been dumped anonymously forever. People have left false information on original birth certificates. People who insist on all births being identified are living a lie, a Logan's Run friggin' fairytale fantasy that pretends we were wanted by our birthmothers (or SHOULD have been, dagnabbit - haha). Yeah, yeah, some of us were. I'm not ready to damn the torpedoes (or the babies) for that pipedream.

You're absolutley correct, Damz, but the point is, it has not been under
state facilitqtion and encouragement. It wasn't taught in the schools (it's
now part of the CA curriculum--how to abandon your baby), There, I said it. Whatever happened to Open Records for Adult Adoptees as our sole legislative focus? Congrats on New Hampshire by the way. Damsel

Well, you said in New Hampshire. But you can't have generations of anon.
adoptees growing up when the rest of the system is open. It's about
identity rights

Marley

LilMtnCbn

06-07-2004, 05:49 AM

>Subject: Re: NEWS--Bizarre plot told in courtFrom: amelusine@yahoo.com (Damsel Plum)Date: 6/7/2004 12:08 AM Mountain Standard TimeMessage-id: <c89c3e62.0406062208.3c8a675c@posting.google.com>"Marley Greiner" <maddogmarley@worldnet.att.net> wrote in messagenews:<RaPwc.16800$Gx4.4187@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>... Google anything having to do with Safe Haven that involves Ron and me. FarOkies. Tomorrow. be it from me to bring up they who's name must not be spoken. For aWho - the NCFA? fasttrack lesson go to:http://www.livefromarlington.com/article.php?story=20040510191702101#commentsOakies . It's very long, but you can read the last 6-10 posts or so to get an ideaof how Bastard Nation, Ron, and I have been insulted and lied about over the last 18 months. Did you know that BN bullies and threatens legislators?

Don't forget the death threats on the BN website.

-------------------------
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail . . . but, a true friend will
be sitting next to you saying, "Damn . . . that was fun!"
-----Unknown

LilMtnCbn

06-07-2004, 05:49 AM

Damsel Plum

06-07-2004, 12:27 PM

"Marley Greiner" <maddogmarley@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<9jZwc.19677$Gx4.8039@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
Evan B. Donaldson? Why wouldn't you want to be closely linked to them? I have no idea. It's amusing that I'm accused of writing the report even though I wrote a report critical of their report.

The tone of her posting is so combative and hysterical too. Whatta
maroon.
Hey, do you have the threatening remark? Did you go and threaten someone's sprog? Nah! The cops said if anybody was threatened it was me.

Good.
Well, you've been out of it a long time and don't know what's going on. When NCFA and Bill blatantly say that dumps are the answer to open records that's something to be involved with. Parallel child welfare systems are something to be involved with. X programs, where babies are being born anon. under state facilitation and being adopted are something to be involved with. There is more and more evidence out there that dumps are being used as fast-track relinquishment--what Bill liked to call "non-bureaucratic placement" for those who find traditional relinquishment too onerous. Dumps are so knotted up with sealed records, it's impossible to separate them now. It's THE hot button issue.

Yes, yes. I remember all of this. Perhaps the fact that it's a
no-win PR position (opposing babydumps) also turns me off. I do
understand the potential for abuse in the system, but that potential
already existed in the ability for those who wanted anonymity to
simply falsify the original bc (something we know happened quite a
bit). The unenforceability of open adoption contracts aside, women
with unwanted pregnancies today have many more options than
yesteryear. They can choose adoptive parents, they can abort, they
can choose to be single mothers. If you ever put your real name on a
birth certificate you can't claim to have wanted permanent anonymity
imo. Is anonymous relinquishment irresponsible? Maybe. Is abortion
or birthing in a toilet less so? I know, it's an existential
question. It's useless to worry about those who didn't live.
For me, BN was about adoptees coming together from every angle and persuasion to claim a common culture, and to fight a well-defined common enemy in attitudes and legislation that denigrate being adopted. That's what dumps are about.

Baby dumps only denigrate adoption if you cannot conceive of adoption
without fully identified sperm and egg donors. You give the
government more credit than it deserves. It can't hope to collect
identifying info. on every desperate broad who doesn't want her baby
and yet gives birth. They're supposed to prosecute these women too?
You're absolutley correct, Damz, but the point is, it has not been under state facilitqtion and encouragement. It wasn't taught in the schools (it's now part of the CA curriculum--how to abandon your baby),

Good. They teach about adoption concurrently. And birth control.
Well, you said in New Hampshire. But you can't have generations of anon. adoptees growing up when the rest of the system is open.

We already do. We always have.
It's about identity rights

In the case of stolen babies, maybe. Otherwise it doesn't fly.
You'll need evidence of concerted abuse of the system a la Georgia
Tann to fight this puppy with the arguments you're proposing.

Damzy

Damsel Plum

06-07-2004, 12:27 PM

Marley Greiner

06-07-2004, 03:37 PM

Marley Greiner

06-07-2004, 03:37 PM

Marley Greiner

06-07-2004, 09:47 PM

99999999999999999999999
"Damsel Plum" <amelusine@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c89c3e62.0406071127.337ad2b8@posting.google.c om... "Marley Greiner" <maddogmarley@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:<9jZwc.19677$Gx4.8039@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>... Evan B. Donaldson? Why wouldn't you want to be closely linked to them? I have no idea. It's amusing that I'm accused of writing the report
even though I wrote a report critical of their report. The tone of her posting is so combative and hysterical too. Whatta maroon.

Llive with it for 18 months. Hey, do you have the threatening remark? Did you go and threaten someone's sprog? Nah! The cops said if anybody was threatened it was me. Good. Well, you've been out of it a long time and don't know what's going on. When NCFA and Bill blatantly say that dumps are the answer to open
records that's something to be involved with. Parallel child welfare systems
are something to be involved with. X programs, where babies are being born anon. under state facilitation and being adopted are something to be involved with. There is more and more evidence out there that dumps are being used as fast-track relinquishment--what Bill liked to call "non-bureaucratic placement" for those who find traditional
relinquishment too onerous. Dumps are so knotted up with sealed records, it's
impossible to separate them now. It's THE hot button issue. Yes, yes. I remember all of this. Perhaps the fact that it's a no-win PR position (opposing babydumps) also turns me off. I do understand the potential for abuse in the system, but that potential already existed in the ability for those who wanted anonymity to simply falsify the original bc (something we know happened quite a bit).

Sure, but the state was never telling people this was OK . The state was
never encouraging girls and women to forgo prenatal care. In NC, there's a
nifty little sloga: "Nbody will ever have to know you had this baby." With
dumps, sealed records are useless. Remember what T Eagle Forum told me
years ago--that if Sundquist were affirmed that all these people would get
their records, but nothing would be in them. That's the potential in the US.
Look at France and the tens of thousands of Xs are denied their identities
and records.

racts aside, women with unwanted pregnancies today have many more options than yesteryear. They can choose adoptive parents, they can abort, they can choose to be single mothers. If you ever put your real name on a birth certificate you can't claim to have wanted permanent anonymity imo. Is anonymous relinquishment irresponsible? Maybe. Is abortion or birthing in a toilet less so? I know, it's an existential question. It's useless to worry about those who didn't live.

But if you never lived it makes no difference. We went over this years ago
here.

about adoptees coming together from every angle and persuasion to claim a common culture, and to fight a well-defined common enemy in attitudes and legislation that denigrate being adopted. That's what dumps are about. Baby dumps only denigrate adoption if you cannot conceive of adoption without fully identified sperm and egg donors. You give the government more credit than it deserves. It can't hope to collect identifying info. on every desperate broad who doesn't want her baby and yet gives birth. They're supposed to prosecute these women too?

No, but so what? Should the government support it? You're absolutley correct, Damz, but the point is, it has not been under state facilitqtion and encouragement. It wasn't taught in the schools
(it's now part of the CA curriculum--how to abandon your baby), Good. They teach about adoption concurrently. And birth control.

Not for long. Well, you said in New Hampshire. But you can't have generations of
anon. adoptees growing up when the rest of the system is open. We already do. We always have.

Since when and where? It's about identity rights In the case of stolen babies, maybe. Otherwise it doesn't fly. You'll need evidence of concerted abuse of the system a la Georgia Tann to fight this puppy with the arguments you're proposing. Damzy

Oh, if you only knew!

YIB,
Marley

Marley Greiner

06-07-2004, 09:47 PM

LilMtnCbn

06-07-2004, 09:54 PM

>Subject: Re: NEWS--Bizarre plot told in courtFrom: "kat" katlat24seeifthishelps@hotmail.comDate: 6/7/2004 4:31 AM Mountain Standard TimeMessage-id: <2iiufeFnuj8eU1@uni-berlin.de>

Damsel: Man, BN going off the wall on babydumps is one of the main reasons I split, sistah. If someone wants to dump their baby, providing a responsible out is fine with me,Responsible? That's a matter of opinion.even if some psychos continue to dump irresponsibly. Yeah, yeah, yeah - I know the whole slippery slope argument. The whole thing just makes me sick. And I don't see how someone who rails on against children and family life the way you do could be considered remotely sympathetic to anything involving the plight of babies, unwanted or otherwise. For me, BN was about adoptees coming together from every angle and persuasion to claim a common culture, and to fight a well-defined common enemy in attitudes and legislation that denigrate being adopted.Yeah! Screw those future adoptees! All that really matters are the currentadoptees who are being 'denigrated'. People have been dumped anonymously forever. People have left false information on original birth certificates. People who insist on all births being identified are living a lie, a Logan's Run friggin' fairytale fantasy that pretends we were wanted by our birthmothers (or SHOULD have been, dagnabbit - haha). Yeah, yeah, some of us were. I'm not ready to damn the torpedoes (or the babies) for that pipedream. There, I said it. Whatever happened to Open Records for Adult Adoptees as our sole legislative focus?Yeah! Screw those future adoptees! Bastard nation should only be concernedwith *current* adoptees. Let those future adoptees fight their own battleswhen it's their turn to get their records. Oh wait - they won't be able to.What the hell. Who cares? Apparently not some current adoptees.Kathy 1

Agreed. As an adoptee, I applaud Marley's dedication to the anti-Baby Dump
effort, and fully support it.

As far as Damsey's decision to "split" with BN over it, well hey, frankly, as a
BN member, I haven't seen much support or contribution from her in the last 2
years over Open Records as our "sole legistlative focus", so really, no big
loss. If she needs an excuse to break from the group, I guess this is as good
as any.

Hey Damsey, lovely to see you. The world has moved on since the last time you
graced us with your posting.

Our Marls has done a lot of hard and dedicated work over this. If you don't
like it, I suggest you take it to email with her personally. Really. Making
fun of her effort here is dumb, and makes you look silly. Go google the
arguements. We've already been there, done that.

-------------------------
A good friend will come and bail you out of jail . . . but, a true friend will
be sitting next to you saying, "Damn . . . that was fun!"
-----Unknown

LilMtnCbn

06-07-2004, 09:54 PM

kat

06-08-2004, 06:23 AM

"Damsel Plum" <amelusine@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c89c3e62.0406071127.337ad2b8@posting.google.c om... "Marley Greiner" <maddogmarley@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:<9jZwc.19677$Gx4.8039@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>... Evan B. Donaldson? Why wouldn't you want to be closely linked to them? I have no idea. It's amusing that I'm accused of writing the report
even though I wrote a report critical of their report. The tone of her posting is so combative and hysterical too. Whatta maroon. Hey, do you have the threatening remark? Did you go and threaten someone's sprog? Nah! The cops said if anybody was threatened it was me. Good. Well, you've been out of it a long time and don't know what's going on. When NCFA and Bill blatantly say that dumps are the answer to open
records that's something to be involved with. Parallel child welfare systems
are something to be involved with. X programs, where babies are being born anon. under state facilitation and being adopted are something to be involved with. There is more and more evidence out there that dumps are being used as fast-track relinquishment--what Bill liked to call "non-bureaucratic placement" for those who find traditional
relinquishment too onerous. Dumps are so knotted up with sealed records, it's
impossible to separate them now. It's THE hot button issue. Yes, yes. I remember all of this. Perhaps the fact that it's a no-win PR position (opposing babydumps) also turns me off. I do understand the potential for abuse in the system, but that potential already existed in the ability for those who wanted anonymity to simply falsify the original bc (something we know happened quite a bit). The unenforceability of open adoption contracts aside, women with unwanted pregnancies today have many more options than yesteryear. They can choose adoptive parents, they can abort, they can choose to be single mothers. If you ever put your real name on a birth certificate you can't claim to have wanted permanent anonymity imo. Is anonymous relinquishment irresponsible? Maybe. Is abortion or birthing in a toilet less so?

Interesting that you equate abortion with birthing in a toilet. Are you
pro-life?

I know, it's an existential question. It's useless to worry about those who didn't live. For me, BN was about adoptees coming together from every angle and persuasion to claim a common culture, and to fight a well-defined common enemy in attitudes and legislation that denigrate being adopted. That's what dumps are about. Baby dumps only denigrate adoption if you cannot conceive of adoption without fully identified sperm and egg donors. You give the government more credit than it deserves. It can't hope to collect identifying info. on every desperate broad who doesn't want her baby and yet gives birth. They're supposed to prosecute these women too? You're absolutley correct, Damz, but the point is, it has not been under state facilitqtion and encouragement. It wasn't taught in the schools
(it's now part of the CA curriculum--how to abandon your baby), Good.

Good?? Unbelieveable.
They teach about adoption concurrently. And birth control.

So you wouldn't have a problem with them teaching about abortion then too
eh? Because there is plenty that even an old lady (45) like me didn't know
about. Having a daughter who helped a friend (and by that I mean locating a
clinic, driving, supporting at appointments, spending the nights with)
obtain one recently, it was an eye-opening experience for me. It turned
into a weeklong ordeal with three separate visits and two different clinics
complete with protestors at one clinic who shouted things like "Think about
hearing your baby call you Mama".

In fact the past three years I have seen two friends of my daughter
experience three unplanned pregnancies. The above friend and another friend
who terminated her first unplanned pregnancy and then concealed her second
unplanned pregnancy until late in her pregnancy and then relinquished.
Thankfully it hasn't been first-hand experience with my 19 or 21 year-old
daughters! I have been supportive of both girls and their choices (as I
also would if they had decided to keep). I have seen how traumatic it has
been for both. I can't be supportive of the action of anonymous
abandonment. Those women are going to need ongoing support to deal with
that traumatic situation. And I certainly can't be supportive of *teaching*
the how-tos of abandonment in school!

Kathy 1

kat

06-08-2004, 06:23 AM

Damsel Plum

06-08-2004, 10:40 AM

lilmtncbn@aol.com (LilMtnCbn) wrote in message news:<20040608005441.20909.00000473@mb-m23.aol.com>...
Agreed. As an adoptee, I applaud Marley's dedication to the anti-Baby Dump effort, and fully support it.

As an adoptee and as a mother I don't.
Our Marls has done a lot of hard and dedicated work over this. If you don't like it, I suggest you take it to email with her personally. Really. Making

Taking it to email personally doesn't make my point to the rest of
you. As far as my not having been active in BN for the past 2 years,
what I write below should further clarify my thought process. I've
been active in other areas. Marley's been active in baby dumps. We
all make our choices.
fun of her effort here is dumb, and makes you look silly. Go google the arguements. We've already been there, done that.

Do you really think I'm not familiar with the arguments? If BN wants
to go down in history as championing identity rights, BN would be
better off going after accountability in people who deliberately chose
to pass on their genes, such as egg and sperm donors, not fragile and
frightened people who are considering killing their babies. I know you
think that is a ruse to create a parallel adoption system with no
accountability, but I see no difference between the degree of
responsibility in telling people to seek abortion or anonymous
abandonment as alternative means to deny conception (and birth). Do
you support making information about abortion available to teens? Open
adoption? Aren't we talking reproductive rights here?

I never believed in identity rights. Especially in the modern age.
Get a DNA test. Register with ISRR if you want a "reunion". Hope
someone's alive or didn't lie or even knows who your sperm donor is.
Besides, some of the greatest Bastards of all time never discovered
their provenance, and never had a chance. Should one be able to?
Sure, if possible, if one wants. At the cost of having had a chance
to live? This is where it becomes a matter of faith for all of us.
There are those who say babies aren't saved by this, there are those
who say they are. There are those who say that it doesn't matter if
10 babies are saved if 10,000 are denied their heritage. It's a value
judgement.

I think I make myself clear.

So what's Shea doing with the Republican senator? Opposing baby
dumps?

Damzy

Damsel Plum

06-08-2004, 10:40 AM

Marley Greiner

06-08-2004, 10:50 AM

"Damsel Plum" <amelusine@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c89c3e62.0406080940.18b23ab4@posting.google.c om... lilmtncbn@aol.com (LilMtnCbn) wrote in message
news:<20040608005441.20909.00000473@mb-m23.aol.com>...
So what's Shea doing with the Republican senator? Opposing baby dumps? Damzy

Yes, as far as I know. And the Rep. Gov,. Linda Lingle vetoed the
legislation when it came to her desk the first time, and says she will
continue to veto it if it comes back.

Marley

Marley Greiner

06-08-2004, 10:50 AM

Damsel Plum

06-08-2004, 11:13 AM

"kat" <katlat24seeifthishelps@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<2ilsudFoh6e5U1@uni-berlin.de>...
now part of the CA curriculum--how to abandon your baby), Good. Good?? Unbelieveable.They teach about adoption concurrently. And birth control. So you wouldn't have a problem with them teaching about abortion then too eh? Because there is plenty that even an old lady (45) like me didn't know

No. However, I think that if they teach about the potential emotional
harm of relinquishment to adoption, they should do the same for
abortion. Just as there are birthmothers who function normally after
relinquishment, there are those whose self-esteem and physical health
are harmed by it. Similar phenomena can occur with abortion. The
problem is that the extremists who advocate or deplore abortion only
want one side of the story told. Pity.

I think they should also teach that fertility drastically plummets
after age 30 and that they should be prepared to spend tens of
thousands of dollars on potenially painful (physically and
emotionally) reprotech if they suddenly realize they want to have kids
after age 35. It wouldn't hurt to teach about adopting too, for that
matter.
In fact the past three years I have seen two friends of my daughter experience three unplanned pregnancies. The above friend and another friend who terminated her first unplanned pregnancy and then concealed her second unplanned pregnancy until late in her pregnancy and then relinquished. Thankfully it hasn't been first-hand experience with my 19 or 21 year-old daughters! I have been supportive of both girls and their choices (as I

I grew up in New York City in the 1970's. Most girls I knew lost
their virginity by the time they were 14, or earlier. I know all
about abortion. Don't know any of my peers who relinquished to
adoption. Everyone aborted in those days. Both abortion and adoption
education (and options) should be expanded, imo. Sorry if that
opinion disturbs people across the spectrum. My hope would be to
appeal to the silent mass of moderates.
also would if they had decided to keep). I have seen how traumatic it has been for both. I can't be supportive of the action of anonymous abandonment. Those women are going to need ongoing support to deal with that traumatic situation. And I certainly can't be supportive of *teaching* the how-tos of abandonment in school!

If you teach that there may be emotional consequences to *any* kind of
relinquishment or abortion or miscarriage you are empowering people
with knowledge and choice.

So, what kind of data have been compiled about the integration of
babydump education into teen health classes?

Damsel

Damsel Plum

06-08-2004, 11:13 AM

06-08-2004, 07:56 PM

> lilmtncbn@aol.com (LilMtnCbn)Date: 6/8/2004 12:54 AM Eastern Daylight TimeMessage-id: <20040608005441.20909.00000473@mb-m23.aol.com>Subject: Re: NEWS--Bizarre plot told in courtFrom: "kat" katlat24seeifthishelps@hotmail.comDate: 6/7/2004 4:31 AM Mountain Standard TimeMessage-id: <2iiufeFnuj8eU1@uni-berlin.de>Damsel: Man, BN going off the wall on babydumps is one of the main reasons I split, sistah. If someone wants to dump their baby, providing a responsible out is fine with me,Responsible? That's a matter of opinion.even if some psychos continue to dump irresponsibly. Yeah, yeah, yeah - I know the whole slippery slope argument. The whole thing just makes me sick. And I don't see how someone who rails on against children and family life the way you do could be considered remotely sympathetic to anything involving the plight of babies, unwanted or otherwise. For me, BN was about adoptees coming together from every angle and persuasion to claim a common culture, and to fight a well-defined common enemy in attitudes and legislation that denigrate being adopted.Yeah! Screw those future adoptees! All that really matters are the currentadoptees who are being 'denigrated'. People have been dumped anonymously forever. People have left false information on original birth certificates. People who insist on all births being identified are living a lie, a Logan's Run friggin' fairytale fantasy that pretends we were wanted by our birthmothers (or SHOULD have been, dagnabbit - haha). Yeah, yeah, some of us were. I'm not ready to damn the torpedoes (or the babies) for that pipedream. There, I said it. Whatever happened to Open Records for Adult Adoptees as our sole legislative focus?Yeah! Screw those future adoptees! Bastard nation should only be concernedwith *current* adoptees. Let those future adoptees fight their own battleswhen it's their turn to get their records. Oh wait - they won't be able to.What the hell. Who cares? Apparently not some current adoptees.Kathy 1Agreed. As an adoptee, I applaud Marley's dedication to the anti-Baby Dumpeffort, and fully support it.As far as Damsey's decision to "split" with BN over it, well hey, frankly, asaBN member, I haven't seen much support or contribution from her in the last 2years over Open Records as our "sole legistlative focus", so really, no bigloss. If she needs an excuse to break from the group, I guess this is asgoodas any.Hey Damsey, lovely to see you. The world has moved on since the last timeyougraced us with your posting.Our Marls has done a lot of hard and dedicated work over this. If you don'tlike it, I suggest you take it to email with her personally. Really. Makingfun of her effort here is dumb, and makes you look silly. Go google thearguements. We've already been there, done that.

I hate to do it, but I have to tag on and say I completely agree with you guys.
If SHs saved babies, I might be able to justify them in my mind. But they
don't. Someone who has the mindset to get rid of the "evidence" isn't going to
drop that baby off.

-------------------------A good friend will come and bail you out of jail . . . but, a true friendwillbe sitting next to you saying, "Damn . . . that was fun!"-----Unknown

kj

06-08-2004, 07:56 PM

06-08-2004, 08:03 PM

>amelusine@yahoo.com (Damsel Plum)Date: 6/8/2004 1:40 PM Eastern Daylight TimeMessage-id: <c89c3e62.0406080940.18b23ab4@posting.google.com>lilmtncbn@aol.com (LilMtnCbn) wrote in messagenews:<20040608005441.20909.00000473@mb-m23.aol.com>... Agreed. As an adoptee, I applaud Marley's dedication to the anti-Baby Dump effort, and fully support it.As an adoptee and as a mother I don't. Our Marls has done a lot of hard and dedicated work over this. If youdon't like it, I suggest you take it to email with her personally. Really.MakingTaking it to email personally doesn't make my point to the rest ofyou. As far as my not having been active in BN for the past 2 years,what I write below should further clarify my thought process. I'vebeen active in other areas. Marley's been active in baby dumps. Weall make our choices. fun of her effort here is dumb, and makes you look silly. Go google the arguements. We've already been there, done that.Do you really think I'm not familiar with the arguments? If BN wantsto go down in history as championing identity rights, BN would bebetter off going after accountability in people who deliberately choseto pass on their genes, such as egg and sperm donors, not fragile andfrightened people who are considering killing their babies.

Frightened (and hormonal) women who are considering killing their babies still
kill their babies. Safe havens allow an easy out for people who would have
otherwise chosen adoption.

I know youthink that is a ruse to create a parallel adoption system with noaccountability, but I see no difference between the degree ofresponsibility in telling people to seek abortion or anonymousabandonment as alternative means to deny conception (and birth). Doyou support making information about abortion available to teens? Openadoption? Aren't we talking reproductive rights here?I never believed in identity rights. Especially in the modern age.Get a DNA test.

Have any idea what that does to one's insurance?? "Pre-existing conditions."

Register with ISRR if you want a "reunion". Hopesomeone's alive or didn't lie or even knows who your sperm donor is.Besides, some of the greatest Bastards of all time never discoveredtheir provenance, and never had a chance. Should one be able to?Sure, if possible, if one wants. At the cost of having had a chanceto live? This is where it becomes a matter of faith for all of us.There are those who say babies aren't saved by this, there are thosewho say they are. There are those who say that it doesn't matter if10 babies are saved if 10,000 are denied their heritage. It's a valuejudgement.I think I make myself clear.So what's Shea doing with the Republican senator? Opposing babydumps?Damzy

kj

06-08-2004, 08:03 PM

Ron Morgan

06-08-2004, 11:09 PM

Damsel Plum wrote:
lilmtncbn@aol.com (LilMtnCbn) wrote in message news:<20040608005441.20909.00000473@mb-m23.aol.com>... Agreed. As an adoptee, I applaud Marley's dedication to the anti-Baby Dump effort, and fully support it. As an adoptee and as a mother I don't. Our Marls has done a lot of hard and dedicated work over this. If you don't like it, I suggest you take it to email with her personally. Really. Making Taking it to email personally doesn't make my point to the rest of you. As far as my not having been active in BN for the past 2 years, what I write below should further clarify my thought process. I've been active in other areas. Marley's been active in baby dumps. We all make our choices. fun of her effort here is dumb, and makes you look silly. Go google the arguements. We've already been there, done that. Do you really think I'm not familiar with the arguments? If BN wants to go down in history as championing identity rights, BN would be better off going after accountability in people who deliberately chose to pass on their genes, such as egg and sperm donors, not fragile and frightened people who are considering killing their babies.

As far as I know neither BN nor Marley has gone after frightened people who are considering killing
their babies.

I know you think that is a ruse to create a parallel adoption system with no accountability, but I see no difference between the degree of responsibility in telling people to seek abortion or anonymous abandonment as alternative means to deny conception (and birth). Do you support making information about abortion available to teens? Open adoption? Aren't we talking reproductive rights here?

The argument that reproductive rights, the "penumbra of privacy", extends beyond birth is the same one
NCFA unsuccessfully attempted in Doe v Sundquist and Does v Kitzaber. As Fred Greenman said, this puts
adoptees in the same legal class as non-viable fetuses.
I never believed in identity rights. Especially in the modern age.

Frankly, without the notion of identity rights, there is nothing hindering the government from defining
people however it wants; including sealing their records or simply defining them as blank slate wards of
the state. Even the government believes in identity rights to the degree that it seeks to balance these
rights against the presumed rights of others in the case of sealed records and baby dumps.
Get a DNA test.

Since when are rights contingent on technology? Freedom of the press? Who needs it, but a computer.
Freedom of assembly? Outdated with networking software...
Register with ISRR if you want a "reunion". Hope someone's alive or didn't lie or even knows who your sperm donor is. Besides, some of the greatest Bastards of all time never discovered their provenance, and never had a chance. Should one be able to? Sure, if possible, if one wants. At the cost of having had a chance to live?

That argument works only if you narrow the choices of women in crisis to baby dumps or killing their
babies. This is an argument that presupposes that identification equals death. I don't buy it.

This is where it becomes a matter of faith for all of us.

I suppose it is. You don't think there is a right to identity, and have the faith that baby dumps save
lives. I believe there is a right to identity, and at the very least that Safe Havens have to satisfy a
higher threshold of success than 'if it saves one baby it's worth it'.
There are those who say babies aren't saved by this, there are those who say they are. There are those who say that it doesn't matter if 10 babies are saved if 10,000 are denied their heritage. It's a value judgement.

It's also a question of public policy. Safe Havens are a matter of child welfare and public safety
policy, not a value wank-off. If they don't decrease the overall number of lethal abandonments, then
that's all they are, a value wank-off, not an effective policy.

Ron

I think I make myself clear. So what's Shea doing with the Republican senator? Opposing baby dumps? Damzy

Ron Morgan

06-08-2004, 11:09 PM

kat

06-09-2004, 04:02 AM

"Damsel Plum" <amelusine@yahoo.com> wrote in message

Do you really think I'm not familiar with the arguments? If BN wants to go down in history as championing identity rights, BN would be better off going after accountability in people who deliberately chose to pass on their genes, such as egg and sperm donors, not fragile and frightened people who are considering killing their babies.

At what point in their pregnancy do you believe that women who killed their
newborns began "considering killing their babies"? That implies
premeditation, which is inconsistent with someone who is in denial about the
pregnancy. It is also inconsistent with first-hand accounts from women who
have actually killed their newborns.

I know you think that is a ruse to create a parallel adoption system with no accountability, but I see no difference between the degree of responsibility in telling people to seek abortion or anonymous abandonment as alternative means to deny conception (and birth).

You never answered my previous question (which is certainly your choice) but
everything you have written so far seems to suggest the answer is yes (i.e
are you pro-life?)

Kathy 1

kat

06-09-2004, 04:02 AM

06-09-2004, 03:15 PM

"kat" <katlat24seeifthishelps@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2ilte8Foi7m8U1@uni-berlin.de... Our Marls has done a lot of hard and dedicated work over this. And without the recognition she deserves! Consider this a standing ovation Marley for all the hard work you do in this arena :) clap, clap, clap, clap, clap. . . . . . Kathy 1
Joining in the applause....clap, clap, clap, clap....

KL

----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
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06-09-2004, 03:15 PM

Marley Greiner

06-09-2004, 03:47 PM

"LilMtnCbn" <lilmtncbn@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040608005441.20909.00000473@mb-m23.aol.com...Subject: Re: NEWS--Bizarre plot told in courtFrom: "kat" katlat24seeifthishelps@hotmail.comDate: 6/7/2004 4:31 AM Mountain Standard TimeMessage-id: <2iiufeFnuj8eU1@uni-berlin.de> Damsel: Man, BN going off the wall on babydumps is one of the main reasons I split, sistah. If someone wants to dump their baby, providing a responsible out is fine with me,Responsible? That's a matter of opinion.even if some psychos continue to dump irresponsibly. Yeah, yeah, yeah - I know the whole slippery slope argument. The whole thing just makes me sick. And I don't see how someone who rails on against children and family life the way you do could be considered remotely sympathetic to anything involving the plight of babies, unwanted or otherwise. For me, BN was about adoptees coming together from every angle and persuasion to claim a common culture, and to fight a well-defined common enemy in attitudes and legislation that denigrate being adopted.Yeah! Screw those future adoptees! All that really matters are the
currentadoptees who are being 'denigrated'. People have been dumped anonymously forever. People have left false information on original birth certificates. People who insist on all births being identified are living a lie, a Logan's Run friggin' fairytale fantasy that pretends we were wanted by our birthmothers (or SHOULD have been, dagnabbit - haha). Yeah, yeah, some of us were. I'm not ready to damn the torpedoes (or the babies) for that pipedream. There, I said it. Whatever happened to Open Records for Adult Adoptees as our sole legislative focus?Yeah! Screw those future adoptees! Bastard nation should only be
concernedwith *current* adoptees. Let those future adoptees fight their own
battleswhen it's their turn to get their records. Oh wait - they won't be able
to.What the hell. Who cares? Apparently not some current adoptees.Kathy 1 Agreed. As an adoptee, I applaud Marley's dedication to the anti-Baby
Dump effort, and fully support it. As far as Damsey's decision to "split" with BN over it, well hey, frankly,
as a BN member, I haven't seen much support or contribution from her in the
last 2 years over Open Records as our "sole legistlative focus", so really, no
big loss. If she needs an excuse to break from the group, I guess this is as
good as any. Hey Damsey, lovely to see you. The world has moved on since the last time
you graced us with your posting. Our Marls has done a lot of hard and dedicated work over this. If you
don't like it, I suggest you take it to email with her personally. Really.
Making fun of her effort here is dumb, and makes you look silly. Go google the arguements. We've already been there, done that.

Thanks for your kind words. We were in the forefront to this, but many
more organizations and prominent individuals have signed on since. The more
people look at these laws, the more critical they become. This stuff alone
is a full-time job. I've been working on some legislative stuff for the
last 2 days. More busy work than anything else, but that's what research is
about much of the time.

Marley ------------------------- A good friend will come and bail you out of jail . . . but, a true friend
will be sitting next to you saying, "Damn . . . that was fun!" -----Unknown

Marley Greiner

06-09-2004, 03:47 PM

Marley Greiner

06-09-2004, 04:05 PM

"Damsel Plum" <amelusine@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c89c3e62.0406081013.56bca25c@posting.google.c om... "kat" <katlat24seeifthishelps@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<2ilsudFoh6e5U1@uni-berlin.de>... > now part of the CA curriculum--how to abandon your baby), Good. Good?? Unbelieveable.They teach about adoption concurrently. And birth control. So you wouldn't have a problem with them teaching about abortion then
too eh? Because there is plenty that even an old lady (45) like me didn't
know No. However, I think that if they teach about the potential emotional harm of relinquishment to adoption, they should do the same for abortion. Just as there are birthmothers who function normally after relinquishment, there are those whose self-esteem and physical health are harmed by it. Similar phenomena can occur with abortion. The problem is that the extremists who advocate or deplore abortion only want one side of the story told. Pity.

I seriously doubt that schools teach the potential emotional harm of
relinquishment. Adoption is a be-all end-all. Check out NCFA's Infant
Adoption Awareness Training Program where relinquishment is considering
self-empowerment and how to feel good about yourself. Anyting for that
other white meat. I think they should also teach that fertility drastically plummets after age 30 and that they should be prepared to spend tens of thousands of dollars on potenially painful (physically and emotionally) reprotech if they suddenly realize they want to have kids after age 35. It wouldn't hurt to teach about adopting too, for that matter. In fact the past three years I have seen two friends of my daughter experience three unplanned pregnancies. The above friend and another
friend who terminated her first unplanned pregnancy and then concealed her
second unplanned pregnancy until late in her pregnancy and then relinquished. Thankfully it hasn't been first-hand experience with my 19 or 21
year-old daughters! I have been supportive of both girls and their choices (as I I grew up in New York City in the 1970's. Most girls I knew lost their virginity by the time they were 14, or earlier. I know all about abortion. Don't know any of my peers who relinquished to adoption. Everyone aborted in those days. Both abortion and adoption education (and options) should be expanded, imo. Sorry if that opinion disturbs people across the spectrum. My hope would be to appeal to the silent mass of moderates. also would if they had decided to keep). I have seen how traumatic it
has been for both. I can't be supportive of the action of anonymous abandonment. Those women are going to need ongoing support to deal with that traumatic situation. And I certainly can't be supportive of
*teaching* the how-tos of abandonment in school! If you teach that there may be emotional consequences to *any* kind of relinquishment or abortion or miscarriage you are empowering people with knowledge and choice.

The thing is that "reproduction" is fraught with politics. So, what kind of data have been compiled about the integration of babydump education into teen health classes? Damsel

Surely you jest! As Ron pointed out last night. only a handful of us are
doing anything. Most states don't even mandate the tracking of the use of
SH laws. CA does mandate it, but getting the information out of the state
is another thing. I was shuffled around to 6-7 offices one day and nobody
knew what I was talking about. Those who support the laws have the same
problem, so it shouldn't be marked up to something personal.

I'm working on CA stats right now, and they are a mess. They change from
day to day. I'm not talking about small changes. I mean big ones. The
state at one point claimed that 20 "babies" had been saved, and then had to
make the sudden announcement that it was really only 12, since the rest were
boarder babies I called the State on their claim that only 1 newborn had
been found dead in 2003 when in fact it was 12. I had 10 in my files, and
Marjie Lundstrom from the Bee, who is a big supporter of SH located another
2 in her Dow search and wrote a column about it.

The whole thing makes you wonder just how many laws are unaccountable.

Marley

Marley Greiner

06-09-2004, 04:05 PM

Damsel Plum

06-09-2004, 06:27 PM

"kat" <katlat24seeifthishelps@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<2io931Fpa3qjU1@uni-berlin.de>... Do you really think I'm not familiar with the arguments? If BN wants to go down in history as championing identity rights, BN would be better off going after accountability in people who deliberately chose to pass on their genes, such as egg and sperm donors, not fragile and frightened people who are considering killing their babies. At what point in their pregnancy do you believe that women who killed their newborns began "considering killing their babies"? That implies premeditation, which is inconsistent with someone who is in denial about the pregnancy. It is also inconsistent with first-hand accounts from women who

You paint with a broad brush. The foreign girl who gave birth in the
toilet when I was in college possibly didn't know she was pregnant.
She claims to have thought she had evil gas. Yes, such cases exist.
The amply documented cases of babies ending up tied in garbage bags
and such suggests something other.
have actually killed their newborns.

Do direct me to a source for these first-hand accounts. I'm
interested. Thank you.
You never answered my previous question (which is certainly your choice) but everything you have written so far seems to suggest the answer is yes (i.e are you pro-life?)

That's like me asking you are you pro-fetus-killing. Listen before you
respond, please. It's a loaded question. Your motivation is to
discredit my stance based on my feelings regarding abortion. I think
abortion should be legal, but with sensible caveats regarding
education and informed consent. I think abortion used as birth
control (which was not uncommon where I grew up)is deplorable and that
concerted efforts should be made to educate people about possible side
effects, just as the same should be done regarding adoption.

On a slight tangent, here is a beautiful and fascinating article about
abortion cemeteries in Japan, where abortion is indeed used as birth
control.
http://www.genesage.com/professionals/geneletter/features/jizo.html

I have met and communicated with enough birthmothers of every stripe
to know that there is no cookie-cutter birthmother. There are plenty
of birthmothers whose lives were not ruined by relinquishment, even
anonymous relinquishment.
The argument I'm hearing here about abortion being preferable to
relinquishment for some birthmothers applies to those birthmothers,
certainly not to all. And they, like the rest of us, are certainly
entitled to their opinion.

Damzy

Damsel Plum

06-09-2004, 06:27 PM