My husband is French and I'm Mexican, we're both students in Canada
with established credit histories and credit cards. We plan to
permanently move to Europe, and my husband wants to max out all of our
credit cards just before we leave without paying it back. I am quite
concerned about this, not because of the moral dilema, but more
importantly because of any possible legal implications. Other than the
banks taking us to a civil court (which given the fact we'll be in
another country is unlikely), are there any possible criminal
conseqences? I know a simple default on credit if you can't make
payments is not criminal, but what if suddenly buy a ton of
merchandise and then skip the country? Can that be looked at
differently?

Thanks in advance for any responses.

On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 13:33:30 -0400 Carmen <esso@zoznam.sk> whittled these words: My husband is French and I'm Mexican, we're both students in Canada with established credit histories and credit cards. We plan to permanently move to Europe, and my husband wants to max out all of our credit cards just before we leave without paying it back. I am quite concerned about this, not because of the moral dilema, but more importantly because of any possible legal implications. Other than the banks taking us to a civil court (which given the fact we'll be in another country is unlikely), are there any possible criminal conseqences? I know a simple default on credit if you can't make payments is not criminal, but what if suddenly buy a ton of merchandise and then skip the country? Can that be looked at differently?
Thanks in advance for any responses.

Borrowing money without intending to pay it back is typically a criminal
offence. The behavior you describe is most likely enough to support the
bringing of criminal charges, although whether it is sufficient for conviction I
couldn't say.

Factors that might be considered in determining criminality include:
(1) Length of time between the charges made and leaving the country
(2) Whether advice was sought before the charges were made
(3) Number of charges made
(4) Amount of the charges
(5) Ability to repay
(6) How close the charges were to the credit limit of the account(s)
(7) How close in time the charges were made
(8) The debtor's education level or financial sophistication
(9) Whether there was a sudden change in the debtor's buying habits
(10) Whether the purchases were for luxuries or necessities

Some people don't just burn their bridges they explode them.

Diane Blackman

Carmen <esso@zoznam.sk> wrote:My husband is French and I'm Mexican, we're both students in Canadawith established credit histories and credit cards. We plan topermanently move to Europe, and my husband wants to max out all of ourcredit cards just before we leave without paying it back. I am quiteconcerned about this, not because of the moral dilema, but moreimportantly because of any possible legal implications. Other than thebanks taking us to a civil court (which given the fact we'll be inanother country is unlikely), are there any possible criminalconseqences? I know a simple default on credit if you can't makepayments is not criminal, but what if suddenly buy a ton ofmerchandise and then skip the country? Can that be looked atdifferently?

Urrr...

It's not unlawful to fail to pay your debts. Even if you _can_ make
the payments (for some value of "can"). Our (US/English/Canadian)
system of laws allows debtors to set their own priorities as to
current spending vs. paying debts -- until/unless things reach the
point of a bankruptcy. Then the court steps in and makes as fair an
allocation as it can of the debtors assets.

But _intentionally_ borrowing money that you don't plan to pay back
is fraud, and that _is_ a crime, at least in most of the US. If the
authorities can prove you and your husband did this, they could
indeed go after you, try to have you extradited back to Canada to face
charges. The trouble, of course, is proving that the intent to
defraud existed _before_ the purchases/cash advances/whatever.

Your question above might serve as evidence, if anybody notices it.
What your husband is advocating is immoral, even if not illegal. It
could come back to haunt you in a number of ways:
. the unpaid debt will show up on your credit record. I don't
think these are international _yet_, but you can expect them to
become so in the not-to-distant future. The banks who lend
money are, more and more, themselves multi-national entities.

. You or your husband might get a job offer in the US or Canada.
If you come back here, you can bet that your credit report will
still be here, waiting for you.


As a final note, you should take this as an indication of your
husband's (lack of) honesty. If he's willing to cheat other people,
what makes you think he won't cheat you? There is no "honor among
thieves".

When I am deciding whether to trust somebody as a friend, one major
consideration is how they handle money matters. Honesty about money
is IMHO the lowest level of honesty. It's so easy to measure, and the
decisions are usually black and white. If somebody is intentionally
dishonest financially, you can expect them to be dishonest in less
straightforward, fuzzier, harder to evaluate areas... like how they
treat the subtle yet necessary balancing of favors in a friendship, a
marriage, etc.

If it were me, I would divorce a spouse who proposed that level of
dishonesty. At the very least, I would be very careful and watch my
back around such a person.

At the _very_ least don't allow yourself to be drawn into this scheme.
If he is determined to blacken his soul with this, there is no reason
for you to do so. Let him max out _his_ credit cards if he wants to.
But don't you put your name on it. Keep your separate credit cards
out of it, don't sign your name to anything -- either a credit card
slip, a cash advance, an application for joint credit, etc.

There is an old saying in Jewish tradition: the penalty of a sin is
another sin, and the reward of a Mitzvah(*) is another Mitzvah.

(*) Commandment. Here used to mean "fulfilling a commandment".

--
I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America, and
to the republic which it established, one nation from many peoples, promising
liberty and justice for all.

In article <m05tivsimpa978r7gku7ih4b1jbeg7nqo4@4ax.com>,
Carmen <esso@zoznam.sk> wrote:My husband is French and I'm Mexican, we're both students in Canadawith established credit histories and credit cards. We plan topermanently move to Europe, and my husband wants to max out all of ourcredit cards just before we leave without paying it back. I am quiteconcerned about this, not because of the moral dilema, but moreimportantly because of any possible legal implications. Other than thebanks taking us to a civil court (which given the fact we'll be inanother country is unlikely),

*DON'T* bet on that.
are there any possible criminalconseqences? I know a simple default on credit if you can't makepayments is not criminal, but what if suddenly buy a ton ofmerchandise and then skip the country? Can that be looked atdifferently?

Abso-damn-lutely, yes, it can be looked at differently.

As in "... with intent to defraud."

For amounts over a relatively 'nominal' amount, this becomes a *FELONY*.

For which you would be subject to extradition, across national boundaries,
in most of the 'civilized' world.

Thanks in advance for any responses.

Carmen wrote: [husband wants to buy on credit then skip country]I know a simple default on credit if you can't make payments is not criminal, but what if suddenly buy a ton of merchandise and then skip the country? Can that be looked at differently?
Due to your intent, what you propose is criminal fraud. If caught, you are
liable to fines, prison or both plus the exposure of civil liablity. This is
such a clear cut case that I need make no further comment.

The only question is if you can be caught after skipping the country. I'm
unsure of this so will not estimate your exposure here.

This post is so flagrant that I almost believe it is a troll to attract
anti-immigrant or other xenophobic comments. If so, I regret having given it
any currency.

-Paul
ianal

"Carmen" <esso@zoznam.sk> wrote in message
news:m05tivsimpa978r7gku7ih4b1jbeg7nqo4@4ax.com... I am quite concerned about this

If he intends to go through with this over your objections, the best thing
you can do is intercept the mail as it comes in and destroy the cards as you
find them. Of course, this just delays the matter.

Think seriously about your relationship with a man who wants to commit
fraud. If he cheats on his creditors, who else might he cheat on?

What are the odds that France has an extradition treaty with Canada?
INTERPOL handles fraud.
--
If you have had problems with Illinois Student Assistance Commission (ISAC),
please contact shredder at bellsouth dot net. There may be a class-action
lawsuit
in the works.

"Scott Hedrick" <spamfile@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:6knfjvkp4g3049t33gkpil9m843t9rlidq@4ax.com... "Carmen" <esso@zoznam.sk> wrote in message news:m05tivsimpa978r7gku7ih4b1jbeg7nqo4@4ax.com... I am quite concerned about this If he intends to go through with this over your objections, the best thing you can do is intercept the mail as it comes in and destroy the cards as
you find them. Of course, this just delays the matter. Think seriously about your relationship with a man who wants to commit fraud. If he cheats on his creditors, who else might he cheat on? What are the odds that France has an extradition treaty with Canada? INTERPOL handles fraud. -- If you have had problems with Illinois Student Assistance Commission
(ISAC), please contact shredder at bellsouth dot net. There may be a class-action lawsuit in the works.
This is off the subject. I tried to post an original message on this
subject and I can't seem to post. Thus perhaps a reply post will take.

This question appears to be one of first impression. A visa or mastercard
credit card bank enters into an open end credit transaction and issues a
card that is charged upon and upon which montly payments are made by the
conusmer. The Fair Credit Billing Act requires that the card holder send a
billing statement every month to the consumer, provided that they have a
mailing address for the consumer. The consumer goes 5 ro 6 months without
making payments. The card holder "charges off" the account as uncollectable.
The "charge off" is simply an internal accounting procedure for the card
issuer and the consumer still owes the debt. However, the card holder stops
sending a monthly statement, even though they have a good mailing address
for the consumer. Has the card holder violated the Act by not sending a
monthly statement? If so, is the violation enough to relieve the consumer of
the obligation to pay the debt?