Publication: IBD; Date: Feb 14, 2005; Section: Issues &
Insights; Page: 20


Wacky Academe
Education: Ward Churchill has a right to speak. So does the nut on the
street corner. The real question is why Churchill is not out on that
corner, where he belongs.


The University of Colorado professor, who has found his ticket to
fame as a cheerleader for the 9-11 hijackers, is one of those
ultra-left ranters whom conservatives love to hate but, on principle,
need to defend.
The Republican governor of Colorado, Bill Owens, wants Churchill
fired, and the university regents may find grounds to do so. But they
need to play strictly by the book. There are legitimate reasons to get
rid of a tenured professor — such as fraud, plagiarism or failure to
carry out required duties — but the professor’s opinions are not among
them.
Academics with Republican leanings should be especially wary of
bending tenure rules to squelch unpopular views. They are sharply in
the minority and need all the job protection they can get.
Besides, the fate of one professor isn’t really the issue. David
Horowitz, a leftist-turned-libertarian who has been studying the
liberal bias at American campuses, homed in on the real point when he
called for an inquiry “to see how Ward Churchill could get to the
pinnacle of the faculty, to be the chair of an entire department.”
Churchill, identified on the university’s Web site as chair of the
Ethnic Studies Department, has no education beyond an M.A. from
Sangamon State University (now a branch of the Illinois state
university system).
His published writings bear titles such as “Pacifism as Pathology:
Reflections on the Role of Armed Struggle” and “Life in Occupied
America.” He clearly has neither the training nor the temperament of a
scholar.
We’re not saying that angry radicals don’t deserve a place in the
marketplace of ideas. But we do question whether major universities,
especially tax-funded ones, should lower their standards in order to
give them a soapbox.
The problem of professors — or whole departments — going off the
deep end isn’t confined to Colorado. At Columbia University, the
Department of Middle Eastern Languages and Cultures has gained
notoriety for its anti-Israel tilt and classroom bullying.
Certain types of departments seem especially prone to such
intellectual hijacking. That Churchill found his niche in an “ethnic
studies” program, for instance, should come as no shock.
Social science focused on racial and ethnic groups is a valid
field and can claim some distinguished scholars, such as Orlando
Patterson and Thomas Sowell.
But academic departments with the ethnic-studies label are often
rooted more in ’60s politics than in the spirit of inquiry. Too many
are products of a time when universities bent over backwards to
appease radicals and give aggrieved groups their own turf. The
resulting Balkanization has been bad for higher education but good for
people like Churchill who thrive in their radicalized enclaves.
If any good can come from the anger he has stirred up, it would be
some recognition by colleges and universities that they’ve strayed
from their proper mission of bringing diverse people together in the
pursuit of knowledge, not driving them apart.

Frodo Bernstein wrote:
The Republican governor of Colorado, Bill Owens, wants Churchill fired, and the university regents may find grounds to do so. But they need to play strictly by the book. There are legitimate reasons to get rid of a tenured professor such as fraud, plagiarism or failure to carry out required duties but the professor's opinions are not among them.

Good observation.
However, his opinions are *really* what this commentary is about,
so cut the bull****.

If the guy gets fired for expressing an unpopular, loony or insane
opinion, he'll retire a very wealthy individual.
So go for it, Governor!
David Horowitz, a leftist-turned-libertarian who has been studying the liberal bias at American campuses, homed in on the real point when he called for an inquiry to see how Ward Churchill could get to the pinnacle of the faculty, to be the chair of an entire department.

He should ask how a geeky dropout like Bill Gates became the wealthiest
individual in the world. He couldn't *possibly* have the temprament
or skills to run a major corporation, could he?

Formal education has *nothing* to do with a person's ultimate
success in life.
Doh!
He clearly has neither the training nor the temperament of a scholar.

Neither did Jesus, or a whole lot of other respected individuals, IIRC.
We're not saying that angry radicals don't deserve a place in the marketplace of ideas.

Oh, c'mon, sure you are.
But we do question whether major universities, especially tax-funded ones, should lower their standards in order to give them a soapbox.

Red herring, or ignorance?
CU gets no more than 10% of its total operating funding from the State.
90% comes from student fees, grants, entitlements and trusts.
Better ask the people that are actually paying Churchill's salary,
and it ain't the State of Colorado.

This Churchill guy is a real piece of work, but so is this article.

You get an F in critical thinking 101, Frodo.

---------------------------------------------

Located near beautiful Berthoud, CO
mojoworking <at> earthlink <dot> net

it is mighty rude to set reply to one group while posting to many without
notating such in your post (unless you are a coward...)

"Bill" <see@text.org> wrote in message news:1995625.AFFbVFaUmJ@fubar... Frodo Bernstein wrote: The Republican governor of Colorado, Bill Owens, wants Churchill fired, and the university regents may find grounds to do so. But they need to play strictly by the book. There are legitimate reasons to get rid of a tenured professor such as fraud, plagiarism or failure to carry out required duties but the professor's opinions are not among them. Good observation. However, his opinions are *really* what this commentary is about, so cut the bull****.

oh yes of course - he hasn't done *anything* of note other than piss a bunch
of people off, and gather a bunch of already activists to follow him around
crying foul now.

If the guy gets fired for expressing an unpopular, loony or insane opinion, he'll retire a very wealthy individual. So go for it, Governor!

you are absolutely correct. I'm a libertarian who usually votes R, but I
will *never* vote for Bill Owens. He is an absolute dope. If he had kept
his damn mouth shut, Ward would be sinking back into obscurity instead of
having his speaking fee go up & getting all kinds of national exposure. I'm
pretty sure that is what Bill Owens is going for as well. He is riding on
Ward's train now, showing off what a conservative he is so he can get hired
for that federal job he wants so bad.

A fact of life, however, is that if you piss enough people off and are
protected as an academic, your work as an academic will be put under a
microscope. From the looks of things, Ward was advanced in the system at CU
because he is supposedly 3/16 *some kind* of Indian, maybe (the tribe he
claimed to be a member of says he isn't) but for no other good reason.
David Horowitz, a leftist-turned-libertarian who has been studying the liberal bias at American campuses, homed in on the real point when he called for an inquiry to see how Ward Churchill could get to the pinnacle of the faculty, to be the chair of an entire department. He should ask how a geeky dropout like Bill Gates became the wealthiest individual in the world. He couldn't *possibly* have the temprament or skills to run a major corporation, could he?

strawman.

There are TONS of people that start their own businesses and make there way
in market-driven capitalistic ventures and make tons of money - no degree
required.

BUT, in academia - degrees is what it's all about.... unless you want an
"Indian" to head your ethnic studies program. This is yet another black eye
for CU. The problem is NOT Ward Churchill, but the system that placed him
in a chair position. I have to wonder how, at CU, one would get past an
assistant-professorship without a PhD? Have they turned that place into a
community college or perhaps a nightclub? Sure seems so.

As I told my kids, I will pay for their college if they go in-state, but not
CU.
Formal education has *nothing* to do with a person's ultimate success in life. Doh!

But it does have to do with hiring and level of employment/advancement at
accredited universities, unless of course we need a token Injun. How would
you like your local hospital hiring a cardiologist with less than par
credentials because they were of a certain ethnic persuasion?
He clearly has neither the training nor the temperament of a scholar. Neither did Jesus, or a whole lot of other respected individuals, IIRC.

Jesus wasn't paid 100K a year at CU. He was a radical, but he was tossed
out on the street corner by the scholars because he bucked the system.
We're not saying that angry radicals don't deserve a place in the marketplace of ideas. Oh, c'mon, sure you are.

I'm not. Ward's price just went up, and he is hoping and praying to get
fired now. He'll get to go to the Supreme Court or just straight to the
speaking circuit (with a much higher pricetag) now and make even more than
he is at CU.

But we do question whether major universities, especially tax-funded ones, should lower their standards in order to give them a soapbox. Red herring, or ignorance? CU gets no more than 10% of its total operating funding from the State. 90% comes from student fees, grants, entitlements and trusts. Better ask the people that are actually paying Churchill's salary, and it ain't the State of Colorado.

cite for that, please.
This Churchill guy is a real piece of work, but so is this article. You get an F in critical thinking 101, Frodo.

as do you.

And next time you are afraid of replies in your own hometown newsgroup,
don't post there. You are a co.general regular and this is co news. WTF is
up with THAT? This controversy is most certainly on-topic for co.general.
--------------------------------------------- Located near beautiful Berthoud, CO mojoworking <at> earthlink <dot> net

it is mighty rude to set reply to one group while posting to many without
notating such in your post (unless you are a coward...)

"Bill" <see@text.org> wrote in message news:1995625.AFFbVFaUmJ@fubar... Frodo Bernstein wrote: The Republican governor of Colorado, Bill Owens, wants Churchill fired, and the university regents may find grounds to do so. But they need to play strictly by the book. There are legitimate reasons to get rid of a tenured professor such as fraud, plagiarism or failure to carry out required duties but the professor's opinions are not among them. Good observation. However, his opinions are *really* what this commentary is about, so cut the bull****.

oh yes of course - he hasn't done *anything* of note other than piss a bunch
of people off, and gather a bunch of already activists to follow him around
crying foul now.
If the guy gets fired for expressing an unpopular, loony or insane opinion, he'll retire a very wealthy individual. So go for it, Governor!

you are absolutely correct. I'm a libertarian who usually votes R, but I
will *never* vote for Bill Owens. He is an absolute dope. If he had kept
his damn mouth shut, Ward would be sinking back into obscurity instead of
having his speaking fee go up & getting all kinds of national exposure. I'm
pretty sure that is what Bill Owens is going for as well. He is riding on
Ward's train now, showing off what a conservative he is so he can get hired
for that federal job he wants so bad.

A fact of life, however, is that if you piss enough people off and are
protected as an academic, your work as an academic will be put under a
microscope. From the looks of things, Ward was advanced in the system at CU
because he is supposedly 3/16 *some kind* of Indian, maybe (the tribe he
claimed to be a member of says he isn't) but for no other good reason.
David Horowitz, a leftist-turned-libertarian who has been studying the liberal bias at American campuses, homed in on the real point when he called for an inquiry to see how Ward Churchill could get to the pinnacle of the faculty, to be the chair of an entire department. He should ask how a geeky dropout like Bill Gates became the wealthiest individual in the world. He couldn't *possibly* have the temprament or skills to run a major corporation, could he?

strawman.

There are TONS of people that start their own businesses and make there way
in market-driven capitalistic ventures and make tons of money - no degree
required.

BUT, in academia - degrees is what it's all about.... unless you want an
"Indian" to head your ethnic studies program. This is yet another black eye
for CU. The problem is NOT Ward Churchill, but the system that placed him
in a chair position. I have to wonder how, at CU, one would get past an
assistant-professorship without a PhD? Have they turned that place into a
community college or perhaps a nightclub? Sure seems so.

As I told my kids, I will pay for their college if they go in-state, but not
CU.
Formal education has *nothing* to do with a person's ultimate success in life. Doh!

But it does have to do with hiring and level of employment/advancement at
accredited universities, unless of course we need a token Injun. How would
you like your local hospital hiring a cardiologist with less than par
credentials because they were of a certain ethnic persuasion?
He clearly has neither the training nor the temperament of a scholar. Neither did Jesus, or a whole lot of other respected individuals, IIRC.

Jesus wasn't paid 100K a year at CU. He was a radical, but he was tossed
out on the street corner by the scholars because he bucked the system.
We're not saying that angry radicals don't deserve a place in the marketplace of ideas. Oh, c'mon, sure you are.

I'm not. Ward's price just went up, and he is hoping and praying to get
fired now. He'll get to go to the Supreme Court or just straight to the
speaking circuit (with a much higher pricetag) now and make even more than
he is at CU.

But we do question whether major universities, especially tax-funded ones, should lower their standards in order to give them a soapbox. Red herring, or ignorance? CU gets no more than 10% of its total operating funding from the State. 90% comes from student fees, grants, entitlements and trusts. Better ask the people that are actually paying Churchill's salary, and it ain't the State of Colorado.

cite for that, please.
This Churchill guy is a real piece of work, but so is this article. You get an F in critical thinking 101, Frodo.

as do you.

And next time you are afraid of replies in your own hometown newsgroup,
don't post there. You are a co.general regular and this is co news. WTF is
up with THAT? This controversy is most certainly on-topic for co.general.
--------------------------------------------- Located near beautiful Berthoud, CO mojoworking <at> earthlink <dot> net

In spite of his lack of comprehension skills, Sam the Constipated wrote:

: < off-the-wall crap snipped >



Sammy, get your nose out of my *** and
buzz off.


---------------------------------------------

Located near beautiful Berthoud, CO
mojoworking <at> earthlink <dot> net

Bill wrote:

<deleted groups restored>
In spite of his lack of comprehension skills, Sam the Constipated wrote: : < off-the-wall crap snipped > Sammy, get your nose out of my *** and buzz off.


Nice loss Billy, any time I need to run the table yer always there for me.

--
"Sam Bam" <sam@bam.slam> wrote in message
news:tKUPd.1801683$B07.271314@news.easynews.com... Bill wrote: <deleted groups restored> In spite of his lack of comprehension skills, Sam the Constipated wrote: : < off-the-wall crap snipped > Sammy, get your nose out of my *** and buzz off. Nice loss Billy, any time I need to run the table yer always there for me.

Conservative asshole.

it is mighty rude setting the reply-to on one group while posting to many
without notating such in your post (unless you are a coward...)

"Bill" <see@text.org> wrote in message news:1995625.AFFbVFaUmJ@fubar... Frodo Bernstein wrote: The Republican governor of Colorado, Bill Owens, wants Churchill fired, and the university regents may find grounds to do so. But they need to play strictly by the book. There are legitimate reasons to get rid of a tenured professor such as fraud, plagiarism or failure to carry out required duties but the professor's opinions are not among them. Good observation. However, his opinions are *really* what this commentary is about, so cut the bull****.

oh yes of course - he hasn't done *anything* of note other than piss a bunch
of people off, and gather a bunch of already activists to follow him around
crying foul now.
If the guy gets fired for expressing an unpopular, loony or insane opinion, he'll retire a very wealthy individual. So go for it, Governor!

you are absolutely correct. I'm a libertarian who usually votes R, but I
will *never* vote for Bill Owens. He is an absolute dope. If he had kept
his damn mouth shut, Ward would be sinking back into obscurity instead of
having his speaking fee go up & getting all kinds of national exposure. I'm
pretty sure that is what Bill Owens is going for as well. He is riding on
Ward's train now, showing off what a conservative he is so he can get hired
for that federal job he wants so bad.

A fact of life, however, is that if you piss enough people off and are
protected as an academic, your work as an academic will be put under a
microscope. From the looks of things, Ward was advanced in the system at CU
because he is supposedly 3/16 *some kind* of Indian, maybe (the tribe he
claimed to be a member of says he isn't) but for no other good reason.
David Horowitz, a leftist-turned-libertarian who has been studying the liberal bias at American campuses, homed in on the real point when he called for an inquiry to see how Ward Churchill could get to the pinnacle of the faculty, to be the chair of an entire department. He should ask how a geeky dropout like Bill Gates became the wealthiest individual in the world. He couldn't *possibly* have the temprament or skills to run a major corporation, could he?

strawman.

There are TONS of people that start their own businesses and make there way
in market-driven capitalistic ventures and make tons of money - no degree
required.

BUT, in academia - degrees is what it's all about.... unless you want an
"Indian" to head your ethnic studies program. This is yet another black eye
for CU. The problem is NOT Ward Churchill, but the system that placed him
in a chair position. I have to wonder how, at CU, one would get past an
assistant-professorship without a PhD? Have they turned that place into a
community college or perhaps a nightclub? Sure seems so.

As I told my kids, I will pay for their college if they go in-state, but not
CU.
Formal education has *nothing* to do with a person's ultimate success in life. Doh!

But it does have to do with hiring and level of employment/advancement at
accredited universities, unless of course we need a token Injun. How would
you like your local hospital hiring a cardiologist with less than par
credentials because they were of a certain ethnic persuasion?
He clearly has neither the training nor the temperament of a scholar. Neither did Jesus, or a whole lot of other respected individuals, IIRC.

Jesus wasn't paid 100K a year at CU. He was a radical, but he was tossed
out on the street corner by the scholars because he bucked the system.
We're not saying that angry radicals don't deserve a place in the marketplace of ideas. Oh, c'mon, sure you are.

I'm not. Ward's price just went up, and he is hoping and praying to get
fired now. He'll get to go to the Supreme Court or just straight to the
speaking circuit (with a much higher pricetag) now and make even more than
he is at CU.
But we do question whether major universities, especially tax-funded ones, should lower their standards in order to give them a soapbox. Red herring, or ignorance? CU gets no more than 10% of its total operating funding from the State. 90% comes from student fees, grants, entitlements and trusts. Better ask the people that are actually paying Churchill's salary, and it ain't the State of Colorado.

cite for that, please.
This Churchill guy is a real piece of work, but so is this article. You get an F in critical thinking 101, Frodo.

as do you.

And next time you are afraid of replies in your own hometown newsgroup,
don't post there. You are a co.general regular and this is co news. WTF is
up with THAT? This controversy is most certainly on-topic for co.general.
--------------------------------------------- Located near beautiful Berthoud, CO mojoworking <at> earthlink <dot> net

Sam the Constipated wrote:
any time I need to run the table

How do you do that without any balls?



---------------------------------------------

Located near beautiful Berthoud, CO
mojoworking <at> earthlink <dot> net

D Thompson wrote:
"Sam Bam" <sam@bam.slam> wrote in message news:tKUPd.1801683$B07.271314@news.easynews.com... Bill wrote: <deleted groups restored>>> In spite of his lack of comprehension skills, Sam the Constipated wrote:>>>> : < off-the-wall crap snipped >>>>>>>>> Sammy, get your nose out of my *** and buzz off.>> Nice loss Billy, any time I need to run the table yer always there for me. Conservative asshole.


Liberal ****head.

Nonono wrote: Sam the Constipated wrote:any time I need to run the table How do you do that without any balls?

Simple, I make you dance on cue.

(if this message comes through more than once, sorry. My provider is
sucking today)

it is mighty rude to set reply to one group while posting to many without
notating such in your post (unless you are a coward...)

"Bill" <see@text.org> wrote in message news:1995625.AFFbVFaUmJ@fubar... Frodo Bernstein wrote: The Republican governor of Colorado, Bill Owens, wants Churchill fired, and the university regents may find grounds to do so. But they need to play strictly by the book. There are legitimate reasons to get rid of a tenured professor such as fraud, plagiarism or failure to carry out required duties but the professor's opinions are not among them. Good observation. However, his opinions are *really* what this commentary is about, so cut the bull****.

oh yes of course - he hasn't done *anything* of note other than piss a bunch
of people off, and gather a bunch of already activists to follow him around
crying foul now.
If the guy gets fired for expressing an unpopular, loony or insane opinion, he'll retire a very wealthy individual. So go for it, Governor!

you are absolutely correct. I'm a libertarian who usually votes R, but I
will *never* vote for Bill Owens. He is an absolute dope. If he had kept
his damn mouth shut, Ward would be sinking back into obscurity instead of
having his speaking fee go up & getting all kinds of national exposure. I'm
pretty sure that is what Bill Owens is going for as well. He is riding on
Ward's train now, showing off what a conservative he is so he can get hired
for that federal job he wants so bad.

A fact of life, however, is that if you piss enough people off and are
protected as an academic, your work as an academic will be put under a
microscope. From the looks of things, Ward was advanced in the system at CU
because he is supposedly 3/16 *some kind* of Indian, maybe (the tribe he
claimed to be a member of says he isn't) but for no other good reason.
David Horowitz, a leftist-turned-libertarian who has been studying the liberal bias at American campuses, homed in on the real point when he called for an inquiry to see how Ward Churchill could get to the pinnacle of the faculty, to be the chair of an entire department. He should ask how a geeky dropout like Bill Gates became the wealthiest individual in the world. He couldn't *possibly* have the temprament or skills to run a major corporation, could he?

strawman.

There are TONS of people that start their own businesses and make there way
in market-driven capitalistic ventures and make tons of money - no degree
required.

BUT, in academia - degrees is what it's all about.... unless you want an
"Indian" to head your ethnic studies program. This is yet another black eye
for CU. The problem is NOT Ward Churchill, but the system that placed him
in a chair position. I have to wonder how, at CU, one would get past an
assistant-professorship without a PhD? Have they turned that place into a
community college or perhaps a nightclub? Sure seems so.

As I told my kids, I will pay for their college if they go in-state, but not
CU.
Formal education has *nothing* to do with a person's ultimate success in life. Doh!

But it does have to do with hiring and level of employment/advancement at
accredited universities, unless of course we need a token Injun. How would
you like your local hospital hiring a cardiologist with less than par
credentials because they were of a certain ethnic persuasion?
He clearly has neither the training nor the temperament of a scholar. Neither did Jesus, or a whole lot of other respected individuals, IIRC.

Jesus wasn't paid 100K a year at CU. He was a radical, but he was tossed
out on the street corner by the scholars because he bucked the system.
We're not saying that angry radicals don't deserve a place in the marketplace of ideas. Oh, c'mon, sure you are.

I'm not. Ward's price just went up, and he is hoping and praying to get
fired now. He'll get to go to the Supreme Court or just straight to the
speaking circuit (with a much higher pricetag) now and make even more than
he is at CU. CU, in the meantime, has managed to marginalize its' entire
organization with a continued, intensifying tradition of bad decisions.

But we do question whether major universities, especially tax-funded ones, should lower their standards in order to give them a soapbox. Red herring, or ignorance? CU gets no more than 10% of its total operating funding from the State. 90% comes from student fees, grants, entitlements and trusts. Better ask the people that are actually paying Churchill's salary, and it ain't the State of Colorado.

cite for that, please.
This Churchill guy is a real piece of work, but so is this article. You get an F in critical thinking 101, Frodo.

as do you.

And next time you are afraid of replies in your own hometown newsgroup,
don't post there. You are a co.general regular and this is co news. WTF is
up with THAT? This controversy is most certainly on-topic for co.general.
--------------------------------------------- Located near beautiful Berthoud, CO mojoworking <at> earthlink <dot> net

"Frodo Bernstein" <frodob@middleearth.net> wrote in message
news:g1ot01lfaglsj1nll9cgfqnc4ajtsp80t4@4ax.com... Publication: IBD; Date: Feb 14, 2005; Section: Issues & Insights; Page: 20 Wacky Academe Education: Ward Churchill has a right to speak. So does the nut on the street corner. The real question is why Churchill is not out on that corner, where he belongs. The University of Colorado professor, who has found his ticket to fame as a cheerleader for the 9-11 hijackers, is one of those ultra-left ranters whom conservatives love to hate but, on principle, need to defend. The Republican governor of Colorado, Bill Owens, wants Churchill fired, and the university regents may find grounds to do so. But they need to play strictly by the book. There are legitimate reasons to get rid of a tenured professor - such as fraud, plagiarism or failure to carry out required duties - but the professor's opinions are not among them. snip

Why not, instead of resorting to knee-jerk ad hominem attacks, just examine
what Mr. Churchill actually (as opposed to a remark taken out of context)
said on its merits?

Here is another view, of someone far less confrontational and far more
mainstream than Mr. Churchill, that echoes, in part, Churchill's main
thesis:


John Perkins, Confessions of an Economic Hit Man


start of quotation


A hit man comes clean on economy

By ROBERT TRIGAUX, Times Business Columnist
Published February 7, 2005


Economic hit men (EHMs) are highly paid professionals who cheat countries
around the globe out of trillions of dollars. . . . I should know; I was an
EHM.

- John Perkins, author of Confessions of an Economic Hit Man

Floridian John Perkins led a comfortable life as a former international
economist and energy entrepreneur. He planned to spend his retirement years
writing New Age books and promoting organizations devoted to the environment
and helping Amazon tribes.

Then came the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. To Perkins, now 60, who
spent years smack dab in the middle of the U.S. international development
game across the globe - 9/11 was a wake-up call.

A call to confess.

Hence his recently published book, Confessions of an Economic Hit Man. It
tells how the United States in the past 40-plus years has relied on economic
manipulation and political coercion to extend its power and control over
other nations. Perkins' book is on a dozen bestseller lists and ranked No.
10 on Sunday's list of nonfiction bestsellers in the New York Times. It is
already in its seventh printing.

Perkins apparently has hit a nerve with readers anxious to understand better
why so many parts of the developing world have such deep-seeded suspicions
of the United States. The book sheds new light on decades of economic
maneuvers in the Middle East that contributed to today's U.S. involvement in
Iraq. The book even offers some context for the current tensions between the
energy-hungry United States and one of its major oil providers, Venezuela,
as detailed by St. Petersburg Times Latin America correspondent David Adams
on this business page.

"What economic hit men do is not illegal, but it should be illegal," Perkins
said in a recent interview. If a banker persuaded someone to take out a loan
that was too big to repay, but then demanded some favor to satisfy the loan,
it would be criminal, he argues.

"This is done on such an international and big scale, that is it not
criminal," he said.

To be sure, Perkins' "confession" does not break entirely new ground. Books
on antiglobalism and U.S. imperialism are abundant. I am reminded of
Chalmers Johnson's book published in 2000, Blowback. That is a CIA term
describing the unintended consequences of events that were kept secret from
the American public. When the 9/11 attacks happened and Americans asked,
"Why do they hate us?," most of the world knew full well, Johnson wrote at
the time. But most Americans had no idea.

Perkins' book offers a similar theme. But his story is bolstered by the
author's firsthand experiences in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Indonesia, Panama and
Columbia. In our interview, Perkins recalled how discouraged he was at the
rising anti-Americanism he encountered last year on a trip to Nepal and
Tibet.

"Our people seem unaware," he said of Americans. "They believe that foreign
aid is used altruistically. But it is often not used that way, and our own
citizens do not understand that."

As a younger man in 1971, Perkins' business card identified him as an
economist for Charles T. Main. The elite Boston consulting firm advised the
World Bank, International Monetary Fund and other multinational development
agencies whether they should lend billions to developing countries to build
such mega-projects as hydroelectric dams, roads and power plants.

In reality, said Perkins, he had been recruited as an "economic hit man." He
had interviewed years before with the National Security Agency, but took a
detour by working for the Peace Corps. While in Ecuador, he was approached
by a Charles T. Main executive named Einar Greve, a U.S. Army Reserve
colonel who told Perkins he also acted as an NSA liaison.

When Perkins' stint with the Peace Corp was over, Greve hired Perkins at
Main. The malleable Perkins then met company consultant Claudine Martin. As
described in the book, she introduced him to his secret role and to the
phrase "economic hit man" or EHM.

Sound a bit too cloak and dagger? Greve, now retired as president of Tucson,
Ariz., Electric Power Co., told the Tucson Citizen last month said Perkins'
story is "basically true."

Perkins' job was to travel the globe and purposely inflate the economic
growth estimates in developing countries. Those bloated estimates were then
used to justify funneling billions of international aid dollars and bank
loans into poor countries.

The money would largely end up in the hands of giant U.S. engineering and
construction firms like Bechtel and Halliburton, contracted to build the
dams and power plants. Any funds left over often disappeared into the hands
of dictators and a few politically powerful families.

It was a sweet, self-serving and corrupt set-up, Perkins acknowledged, one
the young economist happily went along with to enjoy the big pay and perks
that come with living in developing countries.

The real beauty was that Perkins did not work for an NSA or CIA. He was
employed by a private company. It was part of a system that initially, after
World War II, was intended to exert U.S. influence and discourage the spread
of communism in Third World countries.

Now that same system helps extend the U.S. global empire and, increasingly,
the reach and influence of large U.S. corporations, Perkins argues.

Billions of federal taxpayer dollars simply recycled into the hands of big
U.S. corporations. The debt incurred by the developing countries - based on
Perkins' own rigged analyses of the countries' economies - would eventually
overwhelm them. When that happened, the United States gained more influence
over the indebted country.

"It was like what the hit men in the Mafia do," Perkins explained. "We
arranged for someone to get a gift from the "Don' that they can never really
repay. Then the "Don' wants something, possibly illegal, and asks for
repayment."

And what favors did the United States request? "Control over United Nations
votes, the installation of military bases or access to precious resources
such as oil," Perkins said.

Thanks to the role of economic hit men in the 1970s, Perkins said, Saudi
Arabia cut a deal with the United States to provide ample oil, even in hard
times, in exchange for U.S. military protection.

The first Iraqi war in the early 1990s and the current involvement in Iraq,
Perkins suggests, are the result of past failures of economic hit men to
make Iraq under Saddam Hussein more beholden to this country.

Americans don't like to hear it - and it is unfortunate, Perkins said - but
decades of U.S. meddling in the Middle East contributed to the rise and
"Robin Hood" status of Osama Bin Ladin in certain parts of the world.

He hopes his speaking up will make things better for the next generation,
including daughter Jessica, a 22-year-old FSU graduate now working in Tampa.

Last month, Perkins left his Florida home near Palm Beach Gardens for
Brazil. There he told his well-received tale as an economic hit man to
thousands of people attending the six-day World Social Forum. The event is
held each year to protest the simultaneous World Economic Forum in
Switzerland attended by government leaders, multinational executives and,
lately, Hollywood celebrities.

Now Perkins is traveling this country to tell his story, with scheduled
speaking engagements across the Midwest, and at such northeastern schools as
Princeton, the University of Pennsylvania and Brown.

Some confessions take a lot longer than others.


end of quotation


http://www.sptimes.com/2005/02/07/news_pf/Columns/A_hit_man_comes_clean.shtml


You can order the book here:


http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?endeca=1&isbn=1576753018&itm=3


Perkins does not favor the outright overthrow or collapse of the current
system; he remarked on C-SPAN that the resultant power vacuum would produce
something worse than the what we now have--here is a link to a for-purchase
DVD of that lecture:

http://www.c-spanstore.org/cgi-bin/cspanstore/179538-1.html




Genius

"The Greatest Genius of All Time" <megood@ubad.gov> wrote Why not, instead of resorting to knee-jerk ad hominem attacks, just examine what Mr. Churchill actually (as opposed to a remark taken out of context) said on its merits?

If you say the word 'Eichmann', don't be surprised when people examine the
rest of the context.
If you mention 'Eichmann' in the same phrase as '9/11', and liken the
victims to the bureaucracy of death that supported the WWII death camps,
you've rung a very deliberate bell.
And, Ward has been skating along for years- on his academic performance; his
scholarly rigor- his ethnic claim was exposed years ago, but people don't
tend to listen to indians, ya'know?
Here is another view, of someone far less confrontational and far more mainstream than Mr. Churchill, that echoes, in part, Churchill's main thesis:

Whatta loada of steaming cark.
The 'self-loathing' aspect of it is just intellectually dishonest- the
imposition of some ethical requirement figmented from some abstract moral
structure is just silly.
The reality is that the world is a diverse and inimical place. Lots of
people want to take your shoes, for all kinds of motivational reasons-
ranging from selling them as they take you into slavery, to sacrificing them
to dark gods before they eat you.
Grow up.

Chas

Chas wrote: "The Greatest Genius of All Time" <megood@ubad.gov> wroteWhy not, instead of resorting to knee-jerk ad hominem attacks, justexamine what Mr. Churchill actually (as opposed to a remark taken out ofcontext) said on its merits? If you say the word 'Eichmann', don't be surprised when people examine the rest of the context. If you mention 'Eichmann' in the same phrase as '9/11', and liken the victims to the bureaucracy of death that supported the WWII death camps, you've rung a very deliberate bell.

True. But then again, it isn't one that can't be rung.

American foreign policy doesn't operate for the benefit of the world
in general, or even the benefit of America's interest. It is operated
for the express benefit of those who can buy that influence, often for
pennies on the dollar.

Zionist interests have hijacked our foreign policy in the Middle
East, to the point that we are serving as Israel's proxy army. And we
should be surprised that the Muslims might fight back, by whatever means
they have at their disposal?

The Abrahamic religions are inherently belligerent in nature, and
they only way for their leaders to expand their influence is to expand
their areas of control. The Zionists do it via money -- while
Christians and Muslims tend to use direct force.

And, Ward has been skating along for years- on his academic performance; his scholarly rigor- his ethnic claim was exposed years ago, but people don't tend to listen to indians, ya'know?

Ethnic studies is perennially the poor stepchild of academia.
Here is another view, of someone far less confrontational and far moremainstream than Mr. Churchill, that echoes, in part, Churchill's mainthesis: Whatta loada of steaming cark. The 'self-loathing' aspect of it is just intellectually dishonest- the imposition of some ethical requirement figmented from some abstract moral structure is just silly.

Ethics and morals have always been concepts foreign to Christianity.
After all, you'll recall what happened to that other long-haired freak
who told people to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. :)
The reality is that the world is a diverse and inimical place. Lots of people want to take your shoes, for all kinds of motivational reasons- ranging from selling them as they take you into slavery, to sacrificing them to dark gods before they eat you.

Like that dark god of that ugliest of religions: Jesus.

The IMF will do to us what it has done to other Third World
****holes. Bush is bankrupting and destroying our country with his war
and with his profligate spending.

my apologies for multiple posts.

My provider was/is having problems & nothing was going through, now they all
come through. <sigh>

kingfish wrote: my apologies for multiple posts.

See -- foot in mouth.
My provider was/is having problems & nothing was going through, now they all come through. <sigh>

Lying coward.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
it is mighty rude to set reply to one group while posting to many without notating such in your post (unless you are a coward...)

Or unless one is new to Usenet and doesn't know what they are doing? I've
just finally figured out what Followup-To does, personally. The silly KNode
team set KNode to default to put the Followup-To to the current group
automatically. This is what was causing my earlier problems. Perhaps
something similar is happening to Bill?
will *never* vote for Bill Owens. He is an absolute dope. If he had kept his damn mouth shut, Ward would be sinking back into obscurity instead of having his speaking fee go up & getting all kinds of national exposure. I'm pretty sure that is what Bill Owens is going for as well.

Ayup. Mr. Owens saw a golden opportunity to get his name into the national
press, and against someone that very few people would ever defend. He
jumped on that opportunity and is riding it as far as it will take him.
This story isn't going to die anytime soon, 'cuz everytime things start to
settle, Owens will come out with another round of interviews calling for
Churchill's dismissal.
microscope. From the looks of things, Ward was advanced in the system at CU because he is supposedly 3/16 *some kind* of Indian, maybe (the tribe he claimed to be a member of says he isn't) but for no other good reason.

Were there no other Native Americans teaching at CU? And do you have any
proof that someone at CU wanted a Native American heading a department?
As I told my kids, I will pay for their college if they go in-state, but not CU.

I've said that, too! But because I am a CSU alum, and that rivalry doesn't
die easily.
Neither did Jesus, or a whole lot of other respected individuals, IIRC. Jesus wasn't paid 100K a year at CU. He was a radical, but he was tossed out on the street corner by the scholars because he bucked the system.

OMG.... there should be a rule that anyone daring to compare Churchill to
Jesus should have to slap themselves. Ugh.
I'm not. Ward's price just went up, and he is hoping and praying to get fired now. He'll get to go to the Supreme Court or just straight to the

It does seem like that's what he is hoping for. Though I cannot imagine that
it is actually going to happen. There will be an immediate lawsuit filed if
he is fired, and Churchill would almost definitely win. CU has already
spent a ton of money on lawsuits over the last 18 months. The regents
cannot take chance of another.

Plus, an easy way to alienate the rest of the tenured professors would be to
find a sneaky way to fire a tenured professor.


- -===-
Michael Fierro biffster@NOSPAM-REALLYgmail.com
Y! Messenger: miguelito_fierro AIM: mfierro1
http://biffster.org http://weightjournal.com
- ---
"A new body is like a new house: it takes a little bit of time to settle
in. As for the physiognomy... Well, nothing's perfect!"
- The Fourth Doctor
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Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFCEUcWWZn71plul98RArjDAKClyo+qVMFcZuGdF4Ki/vaRjwxWHACgrS67
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"- Prof. Jonez©" wrote:
See -- foot in mouth.

Every time you post we do.

Michael Fierro wrote:
It does seem like that's what he is hoping for. Though I cannot imagine that it is actually going to happen. There will be an immediate lawsuit filed if he is fired, and Churchill would almost definitely win.

After he proves he's even 1/64th Indian....bon chance!

"Michael Fierro" <biffster@NOSPAM-REALLYgmail.com> wrote in message
news:vfqdnTWJuauE2ozfRVn-3Q@comcast.com... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 it is mighty rude to set reply to one group while posting to many without notating such in your post (unless you are a coward...) Or unless one is new to Usenet and doesn't know what they are doing? I've just finally figured out what Followup-To does, personally. The silly KNode team set KNode to default to put the Followup-To to the current group automatically. This is what was causing my earlier problems. Perhaps something similar is happening to Bill?

How is that program? I've yet to find a GUI Linux News Reader that I
liked....

well, Bill has been around the vicinity of Berthoud & has been posting for
awhile.... & he was reading co.general. Though he was using that program...
will *never* vote for Bill Owens. He is an absolute dope. If he had kept his damn mouth shut, Ward would be sinking back into obscurity instead of having his speaking fee go up & getting all kinds of national exposure. I'm pretty sure that is what Bill Owens is going for as well. Ayup. Mr. Owens saw a golden opportunity to get his name into the national press, and against someone that very few people would ever defend. He jumped on that opportunity and is riding it as far as it will take him. This story isn't going to die anytime soon, 'cuz everytime things start to settle, Owens will come out with another round of interviews calling for Churchill's dismissal.

yea, and it is sick.

microscope. From the looks of things, Ward was advanced in the system at CU because he is supposedly 3/16 *some kind* of Indian, maybe (the tribe he claimed to be a member of says he isn't) but for no other good reason. Were there no other Native Americans teaching at CU? And do you have any proof that someone at CU wanted a Native American heading a department?

in the ethnic studies department? Have you ever taken an ethnic studies
class? I tell you what - I have! I did it just to see what was going on and
heard that it was a BS propaganda class - and it was. I met a few in the
department and they were ALL pseudo intellectuals who openly admitted to
strong bias and took please in shutting down opposing views. They were all
also all communists/Marxists. Every single one of them. It was fun
watching pimply faced kids SHUT THEM DOWN on a few occasions - then watch
them not have the opportunity to speak in class again.

Ethnic studies is PC racism, plain and simple.
As I told my kids, I will pay for their college if they go in-state, but not CU. I've said that, too! But because I am a CSU alum, and that rivalry doesn't die easily.

I'm a CSU alum as well, but there are other good schools in state. The FRCC
and mountain college systems are good schools. School of Mines is a good
school....DU...
Neither did Jesus, or a whole lot of other respected individuals, IIRC. Jesus wasn't paid 100K a year at CU. He was a radical, but he was tossed out on the street corner by the scholars because he bucked the system. OMG.... there should be a rule that anyone daring to compare Churchill to Jesus should have to slap themselves. Ugh.

I didn't start it! LOL
I'm not. Ward's price just went up, and he is hoping and praying to get fired now. He'll get to go to the Supreme Court or just straight to the It does seem like that's what he is hoping for. Though I cannot imagine that it is actually going to happen. There will be an immediate lawsuit filed if he is fired, and Churchill would almost definitely win. CU has already spent a ton of money on lawsuits over the last 18 months. The regents cannot take chance of another.

yea, they need to save their dough to defend future ball players.

Plus, an easy way to alienate the rest of the tenured professors would be to find a sneaky way to fire a tenured professor.

who cares about alienating radicals? We don't need "radicals" and
"activists" to be teaching admittedly biased classes. Everyone should have
*some* sense of propriety. Churchill will be fired for something other than
what he said. Despite claims to the contrary from those in *his*
department - he's done some sloppy research and he will go down for academic
dishonesty - which will poach the speaking career at the same time.
- -===- Michael Fierro biffster@NOSPAM-REALLYgmail.com Y! Messenger: miguelito_fierro AIM: mfierro1 http://biffster.org http://weightjournal.com - --- "A new body is like a new house: it takes a little bit of time to settle in. As for the physiognomy... Well, nothing's perfect!" - The Fourth Doctor -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFCEUcWWZn71plul98RArjDAKClyo+qVMFcZuGdF4Ki/vaRjwxWHACgrS67 cG+Nuijp+aWBbMHBOI3DuI4= =dtUD -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

kingfish wrote: "Michael Fierro" <biffster@NOSPAM-REALLYgmail.com> wrote in message news:vfqdnTWJuauE2ozfRVn-3Q@comcast.com...-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----Hash: SHA1it is mighty rude to set reply to one group while posting to many withoutnotating such in your post (unless you are a coward...)Or unless one is new to Usenet and doesn't know what they are doing? I'vejust finally figured out what Followup-To does, personally. The sillyKNodeteam set KNode to default to put the Followup-To to the current groupautomatically. This is what was causing my earlier problems. Perhapssomething similar is happening to Bill? How is that program? I've yet to find a GUI Linux News Reader that I liked.... well, Bill has been around the vicinity of Berthoud & has been posting for awhile.... & he was reading co.general. Though he was using that program...will *never* vote for Bill Owens. He is an absolute dope. If he hadkepthis damn mouth shut, Ward would be sinking back into obscurity instead ofhaving his speaking fee go up & getting all kinds of national exposure.I'm pretty sure that is what Bill Owens is going for as well.Ayup. Mr. Owens saw a golden opportunity to get his name into the nationalpress, and against someone that very few people would ever defend. Hejumped on that opportunity and is riding it as far as it will take him.This story isn't going to die anytime soon, 'cuz everytime things start tosettle, Owens will come out with another round of interviews calling forChurchill's dismissal. yea, and it is sick.microscope. From the looks of things, Ward was advanced in the system atCU because he is supposedly 3/16 *some kind* of Indian, maybe (the tribehe claimed to be a member of says he isn't) but for no other good reason.Were there no other Native Americans teaching at CU? And do you have anyproof that someone at CU wanted a Native American heading a department? in the ethnic studies department? Have you ever taken an ethnic studies class? I tell you what - I have! I did it just to see what was going on and heard that it was a BS propaganda class - and it was. I met a few in the department and they were ALL pseudo intellectuals who openly admitted to strong bias and took please in shutting down opposing views. They were all also all communists/Marxists. Every single one of them. It was fun watching pimply faced kids SHUT THEM DOWN on a few occasions - then watch them not have the opportunity to speak in class again. Ethnic studies is PC racism, plain and simple.As I told my kids, I will pay for their college if they go in-state, butnot CU.I've said that, too! But because I am a CSU alum, and that rivalry doesn'tdie easily. I'm a CSU alum as well, but there are other good schools in state. The FRCC and mountain college systems are good schools. School of Mines is a good school....DU...>Neither did Jesus, or a whole lot of other respected individuals, IIRC.Jesus wasn't paid 100K a year at CU. He was a radical, but he was tossedout on the street corner by the scholars because he bucked the system.OMG.... there should be a rule that anyone daring to compare Churchill toJesus should have to slap themselves. Ugh. I didn't start it! LOLI'm not. Ward's price just went up, and he is hoping and praying to getfired now. He'll get to go to the Supreme Court or just straight to theIt does seem like that's what he is hoping for. Though I cannot imaginethatit is actually going to happen. There will be an immediate lawsuit filedifhe is fired, and Churchill would almost definitely win. CU has alreadyspent a ton of money on lawsuits over the last 18 months. The regentscannot take chance of another. yea, they need to save their dough to defend future ball players.Plus, an easy way to alienate the rest of the tenured professors would betofind a sneaky way to fire a tenured professor. who cares about alienating radicals? We don't need "radicals" and "activists" to be teaching admittedly biased classes. Everyone should have *some* sense of propriety. Churchill will be fired for something other than what he said. Despite claims to the contrary from those in *his* department - he's done some sloppy research and he will go down for academic dishonesty - which will poach the speaking career at the same time.- -===-Michael Fierro biffster@NOSPAM-REALLYgmail.comY! Messenger: miguelito_fierro AIM: mfierro1http://biffster.org http://weightjournal.com- ---"A new body is like a new house: it takes a little bit of time to settlein. As for the physiognomy... Well, nothing's perfect!" - The Fourth Doctor-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux)iD8DBQFCEUcWWZn71plul98RArjDAKClyo+qVMFcZuGd F4Ki/vaRjwxWHACgrS67cG+Nuijp+aWBbMHBOI3DuI4==dtUD-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Strong reply KF!

"Chas" <chasclementsSPOOF@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Lo-dnbRZ86tBK43fRVn-iw@comcast.com... "The Greatest Genius of All Time" <megood@ubad.gov> wrote Why not, instead of resorting to knee-jerk ad hominem attacks, just examine what Mr. Churchill actually (as opposed to a remark taken out of context) said on its merits? If you say the word 'Eichmann', don't be surprised when people examine the rest of the context. If you mention 'Eichmann' in the same phrase as '9/11', and liken the victims to the bureaucracy of death that supported the WWII death camps, you've rung a very deliberate bell. And, Ward has been skating along for years- on his academic performance; his scholarly rigor- his ethnic claim was exposed years ago, but people don't tend to listen to indians, ya'know?


This statement, "don't tend to listen to indians, ya'know?", gets at the
problem Churchill sees and you don't want to see.


That is why Churchill is fighting mad at this country. His people are the
victims of genocide. Although one ought not to assign collective guilt for
this to all Americans as Churchill does, including those who died at the
WTC, we do bear responsibility to see that our nation does not commit such
persecutions in the future.


Here is my reply to another poster in this thread:
Why not examine his meeting with Ghadaffi, bomb making instructions to the weather underground, lies on his employment app, and lecture hall ehortations to a student to commit another 911. http://www.khow.com/hosts/caplis-silverman.html

This cite is biased but it does contain one bit of useful info: Mr.
Churchill served his country with distinction.

http://www.khow.com/img/churchill-mr.html

Academics will say controversial things as a means to get students to think
outside-the-box, as it were, perhaps Mr. Churchill meant it all as an
exercise in free thinking.
http://www.startcolorado.com/iac/KOA-AM/churchill-oakland.wma

No, I do not agree with the statement that the "technocrats" in the WTC were
"little Eichmanns," but academics ought to have the right to formulate their
views however they want, just as you do. Our nation has done some awful
things in this world but they have not, for the most part, acted as the
Nazis had done (exceptions: Operation Phoenix, Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, No
Gun Ri, Moro Crater Massacre, Guatemala, Mossadegh overthrow, Chile, El
Salvador, East Timor, support of dictatorships, genocide of American
Indians, enslavement of Africans, etc). I have posted many of the
exceptions, as you know. Churchill labels upper-level employees at the WTC
as complicit technocrats without knowing them personally; he tars them with
his particular ideological brush but does not know first-hand what they are
really about--this is a trait usually characteristic of the right-wing. It
is a shame to see someone on our side adopt the practice of assigning
collective guilt.


Churchill said that he was not a supporter of al-Qaeda on this tape, anyhow.
I differ from Churchill in that I support the peaceful reform of the corrupt
and exploitative corporate world order. End corporate rule!

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/02/07/news_pf/Columns/A_hit_man_comes_clean.shtml


Genius
Here is another view, of someone far less confrontational and far more mainstream than Mr. Churchill, that echoes, in part, Churchill's main thesis: Whatta loada of steaming cark. The 'self-loathing' aspect of it is just intellectually dishonest- the imposition of some ethical requirement figmented from some abstract moral structure is just silly. The reality is that the world is a diverse and inimical place. Lots of people want to take your shoes, for all kinds of motivational reasons- ranging from selling them as they take you into slavery, to sacrificing them to dark gods before they eat you. Grow up. Chas

"The Greatest Genius of All Time" <megood@ubad.gov> wrote And, Ward has been skating along for years- on his academic performance; his scholarly rigor- his ethnic claim was exposed years ago, but people don't tend to listen to indians, ya'know? This statement, "don't tend to listen to indians, ya'know?", gets at the problem Churchill sees and you don't want to see.

The indians they weren't listening to were the ones exposing Churchill for
the fraud he's become now, years later.
That is why Churchill is fighting mad at this country. His people are the victims of genocide.

They're not 'his people'. Ward is a self-hating white man, robbing an actual
indian of a position of power *based* on ethnicity.
He's like a gay cross-dresser in charge of Women's Studies and claiming WWII
was motivated by paternalism or the suppression of Wicca.

Chas

"Chas" <chasclementsSPOOF@comcast.net> wrote:"The Greatest Genius of All Time" <megood@ubad.gov> wrote And, Ward has been skating along for years- on his academic performance; his scholarly rigor- his ethnic claim was exposed years ago, but people don't tend to listen to indians, ya'know? This statement, "don't tend to listen to indians, ya'know?", gets at the problem Churchill sees and you don't want to see.The indians they weren't listening to were the ones exposing Churchill forthe fraud he's become now, years later. That is why Churchill is fighting mad at this country. His people are the victims of genocide.They're not 'his people'. Ward is a self-hating white man, robbing an actualindian of a position of power *based* on ethnicity.

No idea if the following is factual, but it is more evidence than the
other side has.

http://aztlan.net/churchill_creek_cherokee.htm
<Los Angeles, Alta California - February 7, 2005 - (ACN) The results of
< a much awaited ancestry genetic test of embattled American Indian
< scholar Ward Churchill conclusively proves that the professor of
< American Indian Studies at the University of Colorado at Boulder is
< in fact of both Creek and Cherokee descent. Professor Churchill has
< recently been the victim of a campaign of disinformation claiming
< that he was not a Native American.
<...
<The genetic test results of Professor Ward Churchill show that he is a
< descendant of Creeks through his father and of Cherokees through his
< mother. A copy of the test results was forwarded to La Voz de Aztlan
< under conditions of confidentiality.

lojbab
--
lojbab lojbab@lojban.org
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org

"Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:mr3411lgilld9q1r5961j34pg2n60tsdol@4ax.com... "Chas" <chasclementsSPOOF@comcast.net> wrote:"The Greatest Genius of All Time" <megood@ubad.gov> wrote> And, Ward has been skating along for years- on his academic> performance;> his scholarly rigor- his ethnic claim was exposed years ago, but people> don't tend to listen to indians, ya'know? This statement, "don't tend to listen to indians, ya'know?", gets at the problem Churchill sees and you don't want to see.The indians they weren't listening to were the ones exposing Churchill forthe fraud he's become now, years later. That is why Churchill is fighting mad at this country. His people are the victims of genocide.They're not 'his people'. Ward is a self-hating white man, robbing anactualindian of a position of power *based* on ethnicity. No idea if the following is factual, but it is more evidence than the other side has. http://aztlan.net/churchill_creek_cherokee.htm <Los Angeles, Alta California - February 7, 2005 - (ACN) The results of < a much awaited ancestry genetic test of embattled American Indian < scholar Ward Churchill conclusively proves that the professor of < American Indian Studies at the University of Colorado at Boulder is < in fact of both Creek and Cherokee descent. Professor Churchill has < recently been the victim of a campaign of disinformation claiming < that he was not a Native American. <... <The genetic test results of Professor Ward Churchill show that he is a < descendant of Creeks through his father and of Cherokees through his < mother. A copy of the test results was forwarded to La Voz de Aztlan < under conditions of confidentiality. lojbab -- lojbab lojbab@lojban.org Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group (Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.) Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org

well, it isn't credible:

" A copy of the test results was forwarded to La Voz de Aztlan under
conditions of confidentiality. Because of credible death threats to an east
coast college where Professor Churchill was scheduled to speak, it was
requested that the name of the genetic laboratory not be released."

A real genetic laboratory would not make such a request. Laboratories which
do such testing piss people off as a matter of course every day, and results
which are not open to scrutiny are not even results.

Much like some of Churchill's work, there isn't one lick of verifiable
evidence in this article and a reputable publication would NEVER have
printed it. Who handed them this report - that could be kept confidential,
but the report itself and who prepared it need to be public to be valid.

Otherwise, we a left with a JOKE.

The Greatest Genius of All Time wrote:
That is why Churchill is fighting mad at this country. His people are the victims of genocide.

Oh?

How many Illinois white men were the victims of genocide anyway?

Say...you may have a point there...quite a few got scalped as I recall...

Bob LeChevalier wrote:
A copy of the test results was forwarded to La Voz de Aztlan under conditions of confidentiality.

Get real!

These are the kooks who are calling for "la raza" to take back the
American southwest and turn it into some mythical kinfdom of "aztlan"...

Great credibility there pal.

Sam Bam wrote: Bob LeChevalier wrote: A copy of the test results was forwarded to La Voz de Aztlan under conditions of confidentiality. Get real! These are the kooks who are calling for "la raza" to take back the American southwest and turn it into some mythical kinfdom of "aztlan"... Great credibility there pal.

LOL! They'll get back what the USA stole from Mexico, and without firing a shot.


The United States presently has the highest number of Hispanics after Mexico,
Spain, Argentina, Colombia and Peru, respectively. Worldwide, the United States
ranks 6th largest in Hispanic population. 71% of these Hispanics reside in four
states: California has 34%, made up of mainly Mexican Hispanics; Texas has 21%,
also of mainly Mexican origin; New York comprises 11.4%; and Florida has 8%
Hispanic population of mostly Cuban descent. New Mexico has 10% of mainly Puerto
Rican and Central or South American origins, New Mexico, Colorado and Arizona
combined have 8%, Illinois 4% and New Jersey 3%. The remainder of the United
States has 12% of the Hispanic population.

Hispanics comprise 13 percent of the U.S. population, which grew to 284.8
million in July 2001. That's up from 12.5 percent of the country's 281.4 million
residents in April 2000.

Demographers have long forecast that Hispanics would surpass blacks
because their birth and immigration rates are higher. Still, tabulating the
population data by race and ethnicity is something of an inexact science because
of the way the government categorizes people.

The process became even more confusing in 2000 after the Census Bureau
allowed people to identify themselves by more than one race.

Hispanic refers to ethnicity rather than race, according to the
government. The census form asks people to identify themselves by race and to
say whether they are Hispanic or non-Hispanic.

kingfish wrote: "Bob LeChevalier" <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message news:mr3411lgilld9q1r5961j34pg2n60tsdol@4ax.com..."Chas" <chasclementsSPOOF@comcast.net> wrote:"The Greatest Genius of All Time" <megood@ubad.gov> wrote>>And, Ward has been skating along for years- on his academic>>performance;>>his scholarly rigor- his ethnic claim was exposed years ago, but people>>don't tend to listen to indians, ya'know?>>This statement, "don't tend to listen to indians, ya'know?", gets at>the>problem Churchill sees and you don't want to see.The indians they weren't listening to were the ones exposing Churchill forthe fraud he's become now, years later.>That is why Churchill is fighting mad at this country. His people are>the>victims of genocide.They're not 'his people'. Ward is a self-hating white man, robbing anactualindian of a position of power *based* on ethnicity.No idea if the following is factual, but it is more evidence than theother side has.http://aztlan.net/churchill_creek_cherokee.htm<Los Angeles, Alta California - February 7, 2005 - (ACN) The results of< a much awaited ancestry genetic test of embattled American Indian< scholar Ward Churchill conclusively proves that the professor of< American Indian Studies at the University of Colorado at Boulder is< in fact of both Creek and Cherokee descent. Professor Churchill has< recently been the victim of a campaign of disinformation claiming< that he was not a Native American.<...<The genetic test results of Professor Ward Churchill show that he is a< descendant of Creeks through his father and of Cherokees through his< mother. A copy of the test results was forwarded to La Voz de Aztlan< under conditions of confidentiality.lojbab--lojbab lojbab@lojban.orgBob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org well, it isn't credible: " A copy of the test results was forwarded to La Voz de Aztlan under conditions of confidentiality. Because of credible death threats to an east coast college where Professor Churchill was scheduled to speak, it was requested that the name of the genetic laboratory not be released." A real genetic laboratory would not make such a request. Laboratories which do such testing piss people off as a matter of course every day, and results which are not open to scrutiny are not even results. Much like some of Churchill's work, there isn't one lick of verifiable evidence in this article and a reputable publication would NEVER have printed it. Who handed them this report - that could be kept confidential, but the report itself and who prepared it need to be public to be valid. Otherwise, we a left with a JOKE.


These are the same freaks who want "la raza" to take back the American
southwest and turn it into the mythical kingdom of "aztlan"...LOL!!!


I'm so convinced...not.

"- Prof. Jonez©" wrote: Sam Bam wrote:Bob LeChevalier wrote: A copy of the test results was forwarded to La Voz de Aztlanunder conditions of confidentiality.Get real!These are the kooks who are calling for "la raza" to take back theAmerican southwest and turn it into some mythical kinfdom of"aztlan"...Great credibility there pal. LOL! They'll get back what the USA stole from Mexico

STFU traitor, your America-hating knows no bounds.

Sam Bam wrote: "- Prof. Jonez©" wrote: Sam Bam wrote: Bob LeChevalier wrote: > A copy of the test results was forwarded to La Voz de Aztlan > under conditions of confidentiality. Get real! These are the kooks who are calling for "la raza" to take back the American southwest and turn it into some mythical kinfdom of "aztlan"... Great credibility there pal. LOL! They'll get back what the USA stole from Mexico STFU traitor, your America-hating knows no bounds.

Funny, Mexico is part of America you imbecile.

"- Prof. Jonez©" wrote: Sam Bam wrote: "- Prof. Jonez©" wrote:Sam Bam wrote:>Bob LeChevalier wrote:>>>>>A copy of the test results was forwarded to La Voz de Aztlan>>under conditions of confidentiality.>>Get real!>>These are the kooks who are calling for "la raza" to take back the>American southwest and turn it into some mythical kinfdom of>"aztlan"...>Great credibility there pal.LOL! They'll get back what the USA stole from MexicoSTFU traitor, your America-hating knows no bounds. Funny, Mexico is part of America

Is it, when did they achieve statehood?

In article <hDqQd.2272022$f47.396791@news.easynews.com> Sam Bam <sam@bam.slam> writes: 07.302070@news.easynews.com> <KpqQd.25$K64.2013@news.uswest.net> In-Reply-To: <KpqQd.25$K64.2013@news.uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 20 Message-ID: <hDqQd.2272022$f47.396791@news.easynews.com> X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.com Organization: EasyNews, UseNet made Easy! X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly. Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:50:05 GMT Xref: news.arizona.edu alt.education:11996 misc.legal:21274 talk.politics.guns:92505 "- Prof. Jonez©" wrote: Sam Bam wrote:Bob LeChevalier wrote:> A copy of the test results was forwarded to La Voz de Aztlan>under conditions of confidentiality.Get real!These are the kooks who are calling for "la raza" to take back theAmerican southwest and turn it into some mythical kinfdom of"aztlan"...Great credibility there pal. LOL! They'll get back what the USA stole from Mexico STFU traitor, your America-hating knows no bounds.

Oh, I wouldn't fret. On an government-overthrowing, country-taking-
back scale, the Aztlan movement is right up there with the
Freemen of Montana, the Republic of Texas, and the Expeditionary
Forces of Symbia (Symbio?)


-- cary

Sam Bam wrote: "- Prof. Jonez©" wrote: Sam Bam wrote: "- Prof. Jonez©" wrote: > Sam Bam wrote: > > > > Bob LeChevalier wrote: > > > > > > > > > A copy of the test results was forwarded to La Voz de Aztlan > > > under conditions of confidentiality. > > > > Get real! > > > > These are the kooks who are calling for "la raza" to take > > back the American southwest and turn it into some mythical > > kinfdom of "aztlan"... > > Great credibility there pal. > > > LOL! They'll get back what the USA stole from Mexico STFU traitor, your America-hating knows no bounds. Funny, Mexico is part of America Is it, when did they achieve statehood?

Long before Colorado did, imbecile.

Cary Kittrell wrote: In article <hDqQd.2272022$f47.396791@news.easynews.com> Sam Bam <sam@bam.slam> writes:07.302070@news.easynews.com> <KpqQd.25$K64.2013@news.uswest.net>In-Reply-To: <KpqQd.25$K64.2013@news.uswest.net>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowedContent-Transfer-Encoding: 8bitLines: 20Message-ID: <hDqQd.2272022$f47.396791@news.easynews.com>X-Complaints-To: abuse@easynews.comOrganization: EasyNews, UseNet made Easy!X-Complaints-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly.Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 17:50:05 GMTXref: news.arizona.edu alt.education:11996 misc.legal:21274 talk.politics.guns:92505 "- Prof. Jonez©" wrote:Sam Bam wrote:>Bob LeChevalier wrote:>>>>>A copy of the test results was forwarded to La Voz de Aztlan>>under conditions of confidentiality.>>Get real!>>These are the kooks who are calling for "la raza" to take back the>American southwest and turn it into some mythical kinfdom of>"aztlan"...>Great credibility there pal.LOL! They'll get back what the USA stole from MexicoSTFU traitor, your America-hating knows no bounds. Oh, I wouldn't fret.

Of course not, yer a liberal scumhole.

"- Prof. Jonez©" wrote: Sam Bam wrote: "- Prof. Jonez©" wrote:Sam Bam wrote:>"- Prof. Jonez©" wrote:>>>>Sam Bam wrote:>>>>>>>>>Bob LeChevalier wrote:>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>A copy of the test results was forwarded to La Voz de Aztlan>>>>under conditions of confidentiality.>>>>>>Get real!>>>>>>These are the kooks who are calling for "la raza" to take>>>back the American southwest and turn it into some mythical>>>kinfdom of "aztlan"...>>>Great credibility there pal.>>>>>>LOL! They'll get back what the USA stole from Mexico>>STFU traitor, your America-hating knows no bounds.Funny, Mexico is part of AmericaIs it, when did they achieve statehood? Long before Colorado did, imbecile.

LOL!

Do tell...

The Greatest Genius of All Time <megood@ubad.gov> wrote in message
news:NqhQd.10285$qO5.5988@fe06.lga...
That is why Churchill is fighting mad at this country. His people are the victims of genocide.

The Irish were genocide victims in the USA?

James H. Hood wrote: Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message news:mr3411lgilld9q1r5961j34pg2n60tsdol@4ax.com... http://aztlan.net/churchill_creek_cherokee.htm<Los Angeles, Alta California - February 7, 2005 - (ACN) The results of< a much awaited ancestry genetic test of embattled American Indian< scholar Ward Churchill conclusively proves that the professor of< American Indian Studies at the University of Colorado at Boulder is< in fact of both Creek and Cherokee descent. Professor Churchill has< recently been the victim of a campaign of disinformation claiming< that he was not a Native American.<...<The genetic test results of Professor Ward Churchill show that he is a< descendant of Creeks through his father and of Cherokees through his< mother. A copy of the test results was forwarded to La Voz de Aztlan< under conditions of confidentiality. And so we have to take their word for their authenticity? Aztlan is a joke.

Well...have ya been to East LA recently?

Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message
news:mr3411lgilld9q1r5961j34pg2n60tsdol@4ax.com...
http://aztlan.net/churchill_creek_cherokee.htm <Los Angeles, Alta California - February 7, 2005 - (ACN) The results of < a much awaited ancestry genetic test of embattled American Indian < scholar Ward Churchill conclusively proves that the professor of < American Indian Studies at the University of Colorado at Boulder is < in fact of both Creek and Cherokee descent. Professor Churchill has < recently been the victim of a campaign of disinformation claiming < that he was not a Native American. <... <The genetic test results of Professor Ward Churchill show that he is a < descendant of Creeks through his father and of Cherokees through his < mother. A copy of the test results was forwarded to La Voz de Aztlan < under conditions of confidentiality.

And so we have to take their word for their authenticity? Aztlan is a joke.

On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:19:08 GMT, Sam Bam <sam@bam.slam> wrote:
James H. Hood wrote: Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message news:mr3411lgilld9q1r5961j34pg2n60tsdol@4ax.com... http://aztlan.net/churchill_creek_cherokee.htm<Los Angeles, Alta California - February 7, 2005 - (ACN) The results of< a much awaited ancestry genetic test of embattled American Indian< scholar Ward Churchill conclusively proves that the professor of< American Indian Studies at the University of Colorado at Boulder is< in fact of both Creek and Cherokee descent. Professor Churchill has< recently been the victim of a campaign of disinformation claiming< that he was not a Native American.<...<The genetic test results of Professor Ward Churchill show that he is a< descendant of Creeks through his father and of Cherokees through his< mother. A copy of the test results was forwarded to La Voz de Aztlan< under conditions of confidentiality. And so we have to take their word for their authenticity? Aztlan is a joke.Well...have ya been to East LA recently?

What's your point?

- Jon Beaver

Jon Beaver wrote: On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:19:08 GMT, Sam Bam <sam@bam.slam> wrote:James H. Hood wrote:Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in messagenews:mr3411lgilld9q1r5961j34pg2n60tsdol@4ax .com...>http://aztlan.net/churchill_creek_cherokee.htm><Los Angeles, Alta California - February 7, 2005 - (ACN) The results of>< a much awaited ancestry genetic test of embattled American Indian>< scholar Ward Churchill conclusively proves that the professor of>< American Indian Studies at the University of Colorado at Boulder is>< in fact of both Creek and Cherokee descent. Professor Churchill has>< recently been the victim of a campaign of disinformation claiming>< that he was not a Native American.><...><The genetic test results of Professor Ward Churchill show that he is a>< descendant of Creeks through his father and of Cherokees through his>< mother. A copy of the test results was forwarded to La Voz de Aztlan>< under conditions of confidentiality.And so we have to take their word for their authenticity? Aztlan is a joke.Well...have ya been to East LA recently? What's your point?

If that's the beginnngs of their mythical kingdom we are seriously
screwed...

Sam Bam <sam@bam.slam> wrote in message
news:0PsQd.2004331$B07.305104@news.easynews.com... James H. Hood wrote: Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message news:mr3411lgilld9q1r5961j34pg2n60tsdol@4ax.com... http://aztlan.net/churchill_creek_cherokee.htm<Los Angeles, Alta California - February 7, 2005 - (ACN) The results of< a much awaited ancestry genetic test of embattled American Indian< scholar Ward Churchill conclusively proves that the professor of< American Indian Studies at the University of Colorado at Boulder is< in fact of both Creek and Cherokee descent. Professor Churchill has< recently been the victim of a campaign of disinformation claiming< that he was not a Native American.<...<The genetic test results of Professor Ward Churchill show that he is a< descendant of Creeks through his father and of Cherokees through his< mother. A copy of the test results was forwarded to La Voz de Aztlan< under conditions of confidentiality. And so we have to take their word for their authenticity? Aztlan is a
joke. Well...have ya been to East LA recently?

Hell, no. South Texas good enough?

James H. Hood wrote: Sam Bam <sam@bam.slam> wrote in message news:0PsQd.2004331$B07.305104@news.easynews.com... James H. Hood wrote:Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in messagenews:mr3411lgilld9q1r5961j34pg2n60tsdol@4ax .com...>http://aztlan.net/churchill_creek_cherokee.htm><Los Angeles, Alta California - February 7, 2005 - (ACN) The results of>< a much awaited ancestry genetic test of embattled American Indian>< scholar Ward Churchill conclusively proves that the professor of>< American Indian Studies at the University of Colorado at Boulder is>< in fact of both Creek and Cherokee descent. Professor Churchill has>< recently been the victim of a campaign of disinformation claiming>< that he was not a Native American.><...><The genetic test results of Professor Ward Churchill show that he is a>< descendant of Creeks through his father and of Cherokees through his>< mother. A copy of the test results was forwarded to La Voz de Aztlan>< under conditions of confidentiality.And so we have to take their word for their authenticity? Aztlan is a joke.Well...have ya been to East LA recently? Hell, no. South Texas good enough?

Lol...might just be...

On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 06:07:13 GMT, Sam Bam <sam@bam.slam> wrote:
James H. Hood wrote: Sam Bam <sam@bam.slam> wrote in message news:0PsQd.2004331$B07.305104@news.easynews.com... James H. Hood wrote:>Bob LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote in message>news:mr3411lgilld9q1r5961j34pg2n60tsdol@4ax.com...>>>>>http://aztlan.net/churchill_creek_cherokee.htm>><Los Angeles, Alta California - February 7, 2005 - (ACN) The results of>>< a much awaited ancestry genetic test of embattled American Indian>>< scholar Ward Churchill conclusively proves that the professor of>>< American Indian Studies at the University of Colorado at Boulder is>>< in fact of both Creek and Cherokee descent. Professor Churchill has>>< recently been the victim of a campaign of disinformation claiming>>< that he was not a Native American.>><...>><The genetic test results of Professor Ward Churchill show that he is a>>< descendant of Creeks through his father and of Cherokees through his>>< mother. A copy of the test results was forwarded to La Voz de Aztlan>>< under conditions of confidentiality.>>>And so we have to take their word for their authenticity? Aztlan is a joke.Well...have ya been to East LA recently? Hell, no. South Texas good enough?Lol...might just be...

Those people have been a problem ever since your people came to this
continent.

- Jon Beaver