According to the deed, the land I am about to purchase extends 25' into
the middle of a street, which was once a private road on a plat. The
road is now a township road. The pavement used to end about 50 feet from
the end of my boundary.

About 15 years ago (PA's adverse possession statute requires 21 years), a
family was given part of the adjacent lot by a family member-owner. This
parcel of land was landlocked, and easement should have run across the
grantor's land to the main road. This easement would have run a
considerable distance (about a quarter-mile down a hill).

The person who granted this family this land was well-connected with the
township supervisors at the time. At the time, the township claimed that
the street originally ran along my entire boundary line to the corner of
my lot, rather than ending where the pavement ended.

So according to this reasoning, the parcel was actually not landlocked.
The family proceeded to cut a hole thru the hedge on my boundary line,
and pave a section of both my prospective land and another person's land.
The township claimed it was just paving a section of existing road that
wasn't paved or used.

Now, ordinarily, I wouldn't mind having 1 more house worth of traffic
passing in front of my house. But for some reason or another, this
family generates a disproportionate amount of vehicle traffic (both
residents and non-residents) than the rest of my neighbors.
Additionally, they drive faster than the other neigbors. This street is
at the crest of a hill, so if a child or pet were to wander into the
street, the results could be disastrous. Further, the children of this
family and their friends illegally ride four-wheelers across this paved
stratch onto the street.

I want to either file a quiet title action or obtain a declaratory
judgmeent that the township road never extended past its originally paved
point, rather than all the way to my boundary line. This would require
this family to use an easement across the grantor's land, which it should
have had to use in the first place, and allow me to prevent this nuisance
traffic from travelling in front of my prospective land, and to once
again close the hedge.

Where in the county, township, or other records would I look to discover
whether or not this township road extends as far as the township claims
that it does? WOuld it be in a deed book, or some other location for
recording easements? Or would it be in some other place?

News Subsystem wrote:
According to the deed, the land I am about to purchase extends 25' into the middle of a street, which was once a private road on a plat. The road is now a township road. The pavement used to end about 50 feet from the end of my boundary.
About 15 years ago (PA's adverse possession statute requires 21 years), a family was given part of the adjacent lot by a family member-owner. This parcel of land was landlocked, and easement should have run across the grantor's land to the main road. This easement would have run a considerable distance (about a quarter-mile down a hill).
The person who granted this family this land was well-connected with the township supervisors at the time. At the time, the township claimed that the street originally ran along my entire boundary line to the corner of my lot, rather than ending where the pavement ended.
So according to this reasoning, the parcel was actually not landlocked. The family proceeded to cut a hole thru the hedge on my boundary line, and pave a section of both my prospective land and another person's land. The township claimed it was just paving a section of existing road that wasn't paved or used.
Now, ordinarily, I wouldn't mind having 1 more house worth of traffic passing in front of my house. But for some reason or another, this family generates a disproportionate amount of vehicle traffic (both residents and non-residents) than the rest of my neighbors. Additionally, they drive faster than the other neigbors. This street is at the crest of a hill, so if a child or pet were to wander into the street, the results could be disastrous. Further, the children of this family and their friends illegally ride four-wheelers across this paved stratch onto the street.
I want to either file a quiet title action or obtain a declaratory judgmeent that the township road never extended past its originally paved point, rather than all the way to my boundary line. This would require this family to use an easement across the grantor's land, which it should have had to use in the first place, and allow me to prevent this nuisance traffic from travelling in front of my prospective land, and to once again close the hedge.
Where in the county, township, or other records would I look to discover whether or not this township road extends as far as the township claims that it does? WOuld it be in a deed book, or some other location for recording easements? Or would it be in some other place?


Try the county/city engineer's office.
They can at least direct you to the right office.
This is usually the place to go for various maps and such.

Years ago my mother found out that their deed showed they technically owned
the property the local street was built on. At least to the middle.
This was mentioned to a couple of township cops, they didn't believe it,
looked it up, and apparently found out she was right.


Does this mean I can set up a toll booth and charge people for crossing my
land?

"News Subsystem" <news@news.astraweb.com> wrote in message news:<cb05b0t1ce048lpoinsbu4dnmksortd57u@4ax.com>... According to the deed, the land I am about to purchase extends 25' into the middle of a street, which was once a private road on a plat. The road is now a township road. The pavement used to end about 50 feet from the end of my boundary. About 15 years ago (PA's adverse possession statute requires 21 years), a family was given part of the adjacent lot by a family member-owner. This parcel of land was landlocked, and easement should have run across the grantor's land to the main road. This easement would have run a considerable distance (about a quarter-mile down a hill). The person who granted this family this land was well-connected with the township supervisors at the time. At the time, the township claimed that the street originally ran along my entire boundary line to the corner of my lot, rather than ending where the pavement ended. So according to this reasoning, the parcel was actually not landlocked. The family proceeded to cut a hole thru the hedge on my boundary line, and pave a section of both my prospective land and another person's land. The township claimed it was just paving a section of existing road that wasn't paved or used. Now, ordinarily, I wouldn't mind having 1 more house worth of traffic passing in front of my house. But for some reason or another, this family generates a disproportionate amount of vehicle traffic (both residents and non-residents) than the rest of my neighbors. Additionally, they drive faster than the other neigbors. This street is at the crest of a hill, so if a child or pet were to wander into the street, the results could be disastrous. Further, the children of this family and their friends illegally ride four-wheelers across this paved stratch onto the street. I want to either file a quiet title action or obtain a declaratory judgmeent that the township road never extended past its originally paved point, rather than all the way to my boundary line. This would require this family to use an easement across the grantor's land, which it should have had to use in the first place, and allow me to prevent this nuisance traffic from travelling in front of my prospective land, and to once again close the hedge. Where in the county, township, or other records would I look to discover whether or not this township road extends as far as the township claims that it does? WOuld it be in a deed book, or some other location for recording easements? Or would it be in some other place?

Welcome to the horror of easements. Usually the easement would have
made it to your survey or be mentioned in your title insurance
documentation as an exclusion. If it's mentioned on your title
insurance it'll give the book and page number. Go down to the Recorder
of Deeds for your county and you'll be able to find it. If it is not
there you can hire someone to do a title search and locate it for you.
As far as I know in PA all easements are recorded against the deed.

As a side note if its not exluded in your title insurance you could
probably get them to pay for the loss of the property.


Sam

In misc.legal News Subsystem <news@news.astraweb.com> wrote: According to the deed, the land I am about to purchase extends 25' into the middle of a street, which was once a private road on a plat. The road is now a township road. The pavement used to end about 50 feet from the end of my boundary.

This is pretty normal in some parts of the country. Very often the road,
even a public road, is only an easement. Owning the underlying land isn't
terribly useful because you can't do much with it if the public has a road
on top of it, but it can become important if the road is ever relocated or
abandoned. The extent of pavement is relatively meaningless in identifying
the extent of the easement, and the rights of the public on that easement.
About 15 years ago (PA's adverse possession statute requires 21 years), a family was given part of the adjacent lot by a family member-owner. This parcel of land was landlocked, and easement should have run across the grantor's land to the main road. This easement would have run a considerable distance (about a quarter-mile down a hill).

I don't know what you are describing here.
The person who granted this family this land was well-connected with the township supervisors at the time. At the time, the township claimed that the street originally ran along my entire boundary line to the corner of my lot, rather than ending where the pavement ended.

Have you had a survey done? What is your reason for doubting this claim?
If the extent of the proerty, and the location of easements and rights of
way is important to you, have a pre-purchase survey done.
So according to this reasoning, the parcel was actually not landlocked. The family proceeded to cut a hole thru the hedge on my boundary line, and pave a section of both my prospective land and another person's land. The township claimed it was just paving a section of existing road that wasn't paved or used.

That sounds consistent with typical situations.
Now, ordinarily, I wouldn't mind having 1 more house worth of traffic passing in front of my house. But for some reason or another, this family generates a disproportionate amount of vehicle traffic (both residents and non-residents) than the rest of my neighbors. Additionally, they drive faster than the other neigbors. This street is at the crest of a hill, so if a child or pet were to wander into the street, the results could be disastrous. Further, the children of this family and their friends illegally ride four-wheelers across this paved stratch onto the street.

Dealing with this kind of behavior is considerably different, and a lot
cheaper to resolve than battling over property lines and easements.
I want to either file a quiet title action or obtain a declaratory judgmeent that the township road never extended past its originally paved point, rather than all the way to my boundary line.

In order to prevail in this kind of action you will have to have a survey
done to identify the location of your true property boundaries as well as
the extent of the easement. Do not be surprised if the extent of the
eaasement is well beyond the original paved surface. That is more likely
to be the case than otherwise. Of course you could be perfectly correct.
But you won't know until that survey is done.
This would require this family to use an easement across the grantor's land, which it should have had to use in the first place, and allow me to prevent this nuisance traffic from travelling in front of my prospective land, and to once again close the hedge.
Where in the county, township, or other records would I look to discover whether or not this township road extends as far as the township claims that it does? WOuld it be in a deed book, or some other location for recording easements? Or would it be in some other place?

Did you get a policy of title insurance with the property? Usually this
kind of information will show up as "exceptions" in such a policy. Its an
easier way to start than the county recorder's office. Otherwise the
appropriate search is at the recorder's office, starting with a
grantee-grantor search. It can be very tedious and time consuming. It is
also quite easy to miss things if you aren't experienced (and even if you
are).

Before you start throwing money at a law suit get a survey done. Then if
the results of the survey appear promising get a consultation with a local
attorney experienced in real property law.

--
Diane Blackman
http://dog-play.com/
http://dog-play.com/shop2.html

usshopkins@yahoo.com (Sam Hopkins) wrote in
news:a1f6fe0a.0405250623.6d809eb8@posting.google.c om:
Welcome to the horror of easements. Usually the easement would have made it to your survey or be mentioned in your title insurance documentation as an exclusion. If it's mentioned on your title insurance it'll give the book and page number. Go down to the Recorder of Deeds for your county and you'll be able to find it. If it is not there you can hire someone to do a title search and locate it for you. As far as I know in PA all easements are recorded against the deed.

Thank you for your reply.

Does this hold true for public roads?
Also, this would constitute a taking for eminent domain purposes, wouldn't
it? Neither owner, whose land was paved over, recalls being compensated
for the taking.


As a side note if its not exluded in your title insurance you could probably get them to pay for the loss of the property.

Thankfully, I haven't entered into a land-sale contract yet.

On 26 May 2004 00:37:54 GMT Najena <najena@coldmail.com> whittled these words:
Does this hold true for public roads?

Public roads, at least upon initial creation, should appear in the public
records of the land recorders office.
Also, this would constitute a taking for eminent domain purposes, wouldn't it?

It isn't a "taking" if the original owner of the land granted the public
access. The only way to know is to research exactly what is the nature of
the public road (easement, right-of-way, fee or ?) and how it was created.
Don't expect that you will be able to read the language of the documents
and know that. It might be that easy, but it might not. And depending on
your state law the granting might be able to be done by recorded platt map
instead of directly by deed, although *usually* there needs to be
something signed by the grantor that indicates an intent to grant or
dedicate the way to the public. The point is that there are a lot of ways
to create a right of the public to use land. They are not always obvious.
Neither owner, whose land was paved over, recalls being compensated for the taking.

Eminent domain is one of the least used methods of acquiring public
rights. Land developers are frequently eager for a public entity to
accept a dedication of a public road as it shifts the costs of maintaining
access to the property to the public entity.
As a side note if its not exluded in your title insurance you could probably get them to pay for the loss of the property.
Thankfully, I haven't entered into a land-sale contract yet.

--
Diane Blackman

In PA an easement is either private or public. A public easement is an
easement the public can use (or could be someday turned into a road if
the township owns the easement.) I have a public easement through my
neighbors property. That means that the public can use my easement to
come onto my property - for instance to fish in my pond. If it was
aprivate easement then only me, my friends, relatives, etc could use
it.

In PA I believe an easement must be no less than 50' wide. One thing
you have to understand also is that there are setback limits to the
easement, meaning you can only build so close to it. In my area you
can't build a building within 50' of an easement. So you lose 50'
because of the easement and then another 50' from the easement for a
total of 100'

Since you do not have the land yet I would go down to the recorder of
deeds for whatever county the property is in. The recorder of deeds
has an area that looks like a library. It's full of books. Each book
contains a photocopy of documents that were filed against property.
For instance deeds, mortgage releases, easements, mineral leases, etc.
To locate the documents you need go to the "grantee" and "grantor"
index section. In the "grantee" index (it'll be a book or a computer)
look up the person who currently owns the property. This index will
give you which "deed book" and page number any documents with the
owners names are on. So this will point you to all documents that have
been recorded against their property while they owned it. Look them
all up in the "deed book" and look for a mention of the easement. If
you find nothing look up the person who sold them the property in the
"grantor" index. (Grantee is if the purchase bought, grantor is if the
person sold.) Then look up all their documents and see what was
recorded against the property while they owned it. And so on and so
on. It may say something like this in the deed, "an easement 50' in
width as ploted on the such and such subdivision of map in volume 164
page 9). If it says that walk over to the subvisivion area and look up
the volume. The map is just a survey of area and you'll see the
easement. The easement may be described in the deed or it may be
described on the map.

Good luck. If anything from this you'll learn how to do title searches
for your next property and won't get screwed. Believe me when I say
that doing these searches is not hard though it may seem scarey to
read it here. It's no more scarey then going to a library. The worst
thing that can happen is that you wont find anything.

Sam

Najena <najena@coldmail.com> wrote in message news:<Xns94F4D16E3595Dnajenahotmail@64.62.191.203>... usshopkins@yahoo.com (Sam Hopkins) wrote in news:a1f6fe0a.0405250623.6d809eb8@posting.google.c om: Welcome to the horror of easements. Usually the easement would have made it to your survey or be mentioned in your title insurance documentation as an exclusion. If it's mentioned on your title insurance it'll give the book and page number. Go down to the Recorder of Deeds for your county and you'll be able to find it. If it is not there you can hire someone to do a title search and locate it for you. As far as I know in PA all easements are recorded against the deed. Thank you for your reply. Does this hold true for public roads? Also, this would constitute a taking for eminent domain purposes, wouldn't it? Neither owner, whose land was paved over, recalls being compensated for the taking. As a side note if its not exluded in your title insurance you could probably get them to pay for the loss of the property. Thankfully, I haven't entered into a land-sale contract yet.

"News Subsystem" <news@news.astraweb.com> wrote in message
news:cb05b0t1ce048lpoinsbu4dnmksortd57u@4ax.com... According to the deed, the land I am about to purchase extends
25' into the middle of a street, which was once a private road on a plat.
The road is now a township road. The pavement used to end about 50
feet from the end of my boundary. About 15 years ago (PA's adverse possession statute requires 21
years), a family was given part of the adjacent lot by a family
member-owner. This parcel of land was landlocked, and easement should have run
across the grantor's land to the main road. This easement would have run a considerable distance (about a quarter-mile down a hill). The person who granted this family this land was well-connected
with the township supervisors at the time. At the time, the township
claimed that the street originally ran along my entire boundary line to the
corner of my lot, rather than ending where the pavement ended. So according to this reasoning, the parcel was actually not
landlocked. The family proceeded to cut a hole thru the hedge on my boundary
line, and pave a section of both my prospective land and another
person's land. The township claimed it was just paving a section of existing
road that wasn't paved or used. Now, ordinarily, I wouldn't mind having 1 more house worth of
traffic passing in front of my house. But for some reason or another,
this family generates a disproportionate amount of vehicle traffic
(both residents and non-residents) than the rest of my neighbors. Additionally, they drive faster than the other neigbors. This
street is at the crest of a hill, so if a child or pet were to wander into
the street, the results could be disastrous. Further, the children
of this family and their friends illegally ride four-wheelers across
this paved stratch onto the street. I want to either file a quiet title action or obtain a
declaratory judgmeent that the township road never extended past its
originally paved point, rather than all the way to my boundary line. This would
require this family to use an easement across the grantor's land, which
it should have had to use in the first place, and allow me to prevent this
nuisance traffic from travelling in front of my prospective land, and to
once again close the hedge. Where in the county, township, or other records would I look to
discover whether or not this township road extends as far as the township
claims that it does? WOuld it be in a deed book, or some other
location for recording easements? Or would it be in some other place?

Either the county engineer or the township engineer will be the
keeper of maps. Normally that would include all past versions.

It is normal and customary for private property to extend to the
middle of the street or road. The government has an easment for
the road. That's sensible, because the boundary doesn't have to
change when a road is widened or abandoned.

A quite title action is not the sort of thing you should try to
handle yourself. Hire a local attorney to do it. That person
will investigate, gather evidence concerning the road and the
easment.

McGyver

Thank you for your reply.

I've read the two deeds that comprise the land I am about to buy. There is
no mention of a public easement. There are two easements reserved to the
electric company (which was also the developer who built the development,
originally for housing for its employees), one to maintain its power
equipment (lines) and one to maintain the development's common water system
(the houses share a common well).

Hopefully between researching the title and the plat at the Recorder of
Deeds' office, I'll be able to determine when this right of access was
granted to the township (not really useful), the terms of the easement
(useful), and how far the road actually runs (the burning question =) ).

Also, what if it turns out that the public easement does not go as far as
the township claims? The people who are using this disputed land would
have to have had an easement over land of the grantor of their land,
because their land would be landlocked. The use of the disputed land has
not been occurring longer than PA's 21-year period for adverse possession,
and there is actually an unpaved path, running from these neighbor's land,
across their grantor's land, to the public highway, and they actually use
it occasionally. Would that then make their use of my land a trespass? If
so, could I obtain injunctive relief to prohibit the trespass, and to
require them to use that path (or some other easement over the grantor's
land) that runs to the highway? That is my goal out of this whole project.

TOTE@dog-play.com wrote in news:2hiq7mFdg2qsU1@uni-berlin.de:
On 26 May 2004 00:37:54 GMT Najena <najena@coldmail.com> whittled these words:
Also, this would constitute a taking for eminent domain purposes, wouldn't it? It isn't a "taking" if the original owner of the land granted the public access. The only way to know is to research exactly what is the nature of the public road (easement, right-of-way, fee or ?) and how it was created. Don't expect that you will be able to read the language of the documents and know that. It might be that easy, but it might not. And depending on your state law the granting might be able to be done by recorded platt map instead of directly by deed, although *usually* there needs to be something signed by the grantor that indicates an intent to grant or dedicate the way to the public. The point is that there are a lot of ways to create a right of the public to use land. They are not always obvious.

Thank you for your reply.

The road was a originally a private road on a plat. I don't contest that
the owners granted public access to the township. They in fact did,
probably to avoid having to maintain the road and plow the snow. I just
need to know how far it ran.
Between researching the title and looking at the original plat, one ought
to be able to determine how far the road originally ran, the nature of the
public access granted, and whether the road was extended, correct?

Najena <najena@coldmail.com> wrote in message news:<Xns94F5C7143CEC6najenahotmail@64.62.191.8>... Thank you for your reply. I've read the two deeds that comprise the land I am about to buy. There is no mention of a public easement. There are two easements reserved to the electric company (which was also the developer who built the development, originally for housing for its employees), one to maintain its power equipment (lines) and one to maintain the development's common water system (the houses share a common well).

What you might find is that the easement might have been filed after
the deeds were created. So keep an eye out for that.
Hopefully between researching the title and the plat at the Recorder of Deeds' office, I'll be able to determine when this right of access was granted to the township (not really useful), the terms of the easement (useful), and how far the road actually runs (the burning question =) ). Also, what if it turns out that the public easement does not go as far as the township claims? The people who are using this disputed land would have to have had an easement over land of the grantor of their land, because their land would be landlocked. The use of the disputed land has not been occurring longer than PA's 21-year period for adverse possession, and there is actually an unpaved path, running from these neighbor's land, across their grantor's land, to the public highway, and they actually use it occasionally. Would that then make their use of my land a trespass? If so, could I obtain injunctive relief to prohibit the trespass, and to require them to use that path (or some other easement over the grantor's land) that runs to the highway? That is my goal out of this whole project.

If you clear this easement the owners of the landlocked property will
have to sue the grantor of their property for a new easement. That
means a lot of bad blood. The first thing you should do if you do
clear the easement is send the neighbors a certified letter informing
them that you are giving them permission to use the path through your
land but that you reserve the right to terminate it. This will squash
the 21 year adverse possession rule. No need to have that floating out
there. I would then give them notice that you intend to terminate the
permission and give them 3 months or so.

On 27 May 2004 07:22:06 -0700 Sam Hopkins <usshopkins@yahoo.com> whittled these words:
What you might find is that the easement might have been filed after the deeds were created. So keep an eye out for that.

Or the easement might have been created before those deeds.

Or the easement may have been created by implication.

Or the easement may have originally been created by necessity.

Or there may be a prescriptive easement based on a length of time and
circumstances the OP has not considered, or is unaware of applying.

There are so many questions that need to be asked.

How does the order of conveyance of the particular parcels involved
either support or impair the OPs theories? What is the physical evidence
relating to the existence and extent of points of ingress and egress?
What testimonial evidence is there to support or defeat claims of
location and level of use relating to ingress and egress for the involved
parcels?

Does the OP understand tacking? Does it apply in this case? If it
does, then what facts here either support or defeat it? What is the
current state of the law regarding tacking of for perfection of
prescriptive easements in PA? Is it different from tacking as to adverse
possession?

What is the law in PA regarding merger and unmerger of parcels in
relationship to the termination and/or resurrection of easements and/or
rights of way? Is that a factor here? Has there been any merger and/or
unmerger of parcels? Does are there any subdivision laws that come into
play here?

Does PA distinguish between easements and rights of way? Is that an
important distinction in this particular case?

And those are just a few off the top of my head

The facts uncovered could reveal a straightforward and easily resolved
case, or it could reveal a convoluted mess. I don't get the sense the OP
really knows what facts are important and why they are important and that
will limit the ability of the OP to realistically evaluate the risks of
going forward. Since many competent attorneys similarly are unaware of
all they need to properly evaluate the situation this is no slam on the
OPs capabilities. Its just that real property law, at least in
California, is the area with the most malpractice claims based on
misuderstanding of the law. So its important to get an attorney actually
experienced in real property law involved. But I wouldn't even go THAT
far without first consulting with a land surveyor on locating the extent
of the easement in dispute.

--
Diane Blackman