lilmtncbn@aol.comnospam (LilMtnCbn) wroteI understand the grief of everyone involved. I think, in thatsituation, I would feel the same way. But I really don't think it'sthe whole story; and I don't think working up a passionate frenzy overit really benefits any of her children.In terms of actual changes: Some have suggested enforceable openadoption agreements. That is something I would be supportive of.Rupa Rupa, this is exactly how I see the situation. Thanks for posting it so well.
Thanks!

Rupa

Rupa Bose wrote:
lilmtncbn@aol.comnospam (LilMtnCbn) wroteI understand the grief of everyone involved. I think, in thatsituation, I would feel the same way. But I really don't think it'sthe whole story; and I don't think working up a passionate frenzy overit really benefits any of her children.In terms of actual changes: Some have suggested enforceable openadoption agreements. That is something I would be supportive of.RupaRupa, this is exactly how I see the situation. Thanks for posting it so well. Thanks! Rupa

Yes, Rupa...as always, well said. Can't help but recall the old
saw about cooler heads prevailing. Emotion/anger will always be
needed to light the fire, blow on the embers, and thrust us out
of our collective stupor, but logical thinking will be the one
tack which will see us through to our goals be they large or small.

pb...


"To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men."

--Abraham Lincoln

"pb..." <woodlark-99@newsguy.com> wrote in message news:<c5dmt701vv8@news1.newsguy.com>... Rupa Bose wrote: lilmtncbn@aol.comnospam (LilMtnCbn) wrote>I understand the grief of everyone involved. I think, in that>situation, I would feel the same way. But I really don't think it's>the whole story; and I don't think working up a passionate frenzy over>it really benefits any of her children.>>In terms of actual changes: Some have suggested enforceable open>adoption agreements. That is something I would be supportive of.>>RupaRupa, this is exactly how I see the situation. Thanks for posting it so well. Thanks! Rupa Yes, Rupa...as always, well said. Can't help but recall the old saw about cooler heads prevailing. Emotion/anger will always be needed to light the fire, blow on the embers, and thrust us out of our collective stupor, but logical thinking will be the one tack which will see us through to our goals be they large or small. pb...
God forbid that anyone would believe that the permanent loss of a
child by adoption could ever be a catalyst that causes chronic
depression.
That's obviously because losing an actual child is nowhere near as
emotionally catastrophic as losing the ability to create them.













"To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men." --Abraham Lincoln

Dian wrote: "pb..." <woodlark-99@newsguy.com> wrote in message news:<c5dmt701vv8@news1.newsguy.com>...Rupa Bose wrote:lilmtncbn@aol.comnospam (LilMtnCbn) wrote>>I understand the grief of everyone involved. I think, in that>>situation, I would feel the same way. But I really don't think it's>>the whole story; and I don't think working up a passionate frenzy over>>it really benefits any of her children.>>>>In terms of actual changes: Some have suggested enforceable open>>adoption agreements. That is something I would be supportive of.>>>>Rupa>>Rupa, this is exactly how I see the situation. Thanks for posting it so well.>>Thanks!RupaYes, Rupa...as always, well said. Can't help but recall the oldsaw about cooler heads prevailing. Emotion/anger will always beneeded to light the fire, blow on the embers, and thrust us outof our collective stupor, but logical thinking will be the onetack which will see us through to our goals be they large or small.pb... God forbid that anyone would believe that the permanent loss of a child by adoption could ever be a catalyst that causes chronic depression. That's obviously because losing an actual child is nowhere near as emotionally catastrophic as losing the ability to create them.


Whoa...did I say that? I was relying on my own "old feelings" and
speaking from personal experience. I apologize if you read my
message as anything other than that, Di. Goodness...not to mention
a few hundred others<g>...know of *my* experience with depression.
You may or may not be interested in knowing that I have been on
both ends of this equation...the child I lost to closed adoption
is also my *only* child. Many miscarriages and the humiliating
depersonalization of infertility treatments have played a number
and then some on my emotional state over many years. I can safely
say unequivocally that the loss of a living child to adoption and
loss of that phantom child are equally devastating -- at least
they were to me.


pb...




"To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men." --Abraham Lincoln

>Subject: Re: Fast Track Adoption: The Faster, Safer Way to Privately AdoptFrom: "pb..." woodlark-99@newsguy.comDate: 4/12/04 12:07 PM Pacific Daylight TimeMessage-id: <c5epd809oq@news1.newsguy.com>Dian wrote: "pb..." <woodlark-99@newsguy.com> wrote in messagenews:<c5dmt701vv8@news1.newsguy.com>...Rupa Bose wrote:>lilmtncbn@aol.comnospam (LilMtnCbn) wrote>>>>>I understand the grief of everyone involved. I think, in that>>>situation, I would feel the same way. But I really don't think it's>>>the whole story; and I don't think working up a passionate frenzy over>>>it really benefits any of her children.>>>>>>In terms of actual changes: Some have suggested enforceable open>>>adoption agreements. That is something I would be supportive of.>>>>>>Rupa>>>>Rupa, this is exactly how I see the situation. Thanks for posting it sowell.>>>>>>Thanks!>>RupaYes, Rupa...as always, well said. Can't help but recall the oldsaw about cooler heads prevailing. Emotion/anger will always beneeded to light the fire, blow on the embers, and thrust us outof our collective stupor, but logical thinking will be the onetack which will see us through to our goals be they large or small.pb... God forbid that anyone would believe that the permanent loss of a child by adoption could ever be a catalyst that causes chronic depression. That's obviously because losing an actual child is nowhere near as emotionally catastrophic as losing the ability to create them.Whoa...did I say that? I was relying on my own "old feelings" andspeaking from personal experience. I apologize if you read mymessage as anything other than that, Di. Goodness...not to mentiona few hundred others<g>...know of *my* experience with depression.You may or may not be interested in knowing that I have been onboth ends of this equation...the child I lost to closed adoptionis also my *only* child. Many miscarriages and the humiliatingdepersonalization of infertility treatments have played a numberand then some on my emotional state over many years. I can safelysay unequivocally that the loss of a living child to adoption andloss of that phantom child are equally devastating -- at leastthey were to me.pb...

{{{ pb }}} I can't imagine how painful your journey has been.




Diane Welfare, "she describes the US market as a "$US1.4 billion business in
baby trafficking". ~~121603
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/12/15/1071336884771.html

>Subject: Re: Fast Track Adoption: The Faster, Safer Way to Privately Adopt aBabyFrom: patrice068@optusnet.com.au (Dian)Date: 4/12/04 11:30 AM Pacific Daylight TimeMessage-id: <9a095db9.0404121030.1f577488@posting.google.com>"pb..." <woodlark-99@newsguy.com> wrote in messagenews:<c5dmt701vv8@news1.newsguy.com>... Rupa Bose wrote: lilmtncbn@aol.comnospam (LilMtnCbn) wrote>>I understand the grief of everyone involved. I think, in that>>situation, I would feel the same way. But I really don't think it's>>the whole story; and I don't think working up a passionate frenzy over>>it really benefits any of her children.>>>>In terms of actual changes: Some have suggested enforceable open>>adoption agreements. That is something I would be supportive of.>>>>Rupa>>Rupa, this is exactly how I see the situation. Thanks for posting it sowell.>> Thanks! Rupa Yes, Rupa...as always, well said. Can't help but recall the old saw about cooler heads prevailing. Emotion/anger will always be needed to light the fire, blow on the embers, and thrust us out of our collective stupor, but logical thinking will be the one tack which will see us through to our goals be they large or small. pb...God forbid that anyone would believe that the permanent loss of achild by adoption could ever be a catalyst that causes chronicdepression.That's obviously because losing an actual child is nowhere near asemotionally catastrophic as losing the ability to create them.

What a bitter **** you are.




Diane Welfare, "she describes the US market as a "$US1.4 billion business in
baby trafficking". ~~121603
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/12/15/1071336884771.html

pb writes:
You may or may not be interested in knowing that I have been onboth ends of this equation...the child I lost to closed adoptionis also my *only* child. Many miscarriages and the humiliatingdepersonalization of infertility treatments have played a numberand then some on my emotional state over many years. I can safelysay unequivocally that the loss of a living child to adoption andloss of that phantom child are equally devastating -- at leastthey were to me.pb...


pb, I am very sorry for all you endured. Thank you for your unique (almost)
perspective. As unpopular as it might be to express the magnitude of loss one
can feel when unable to become pregnant and bear children, you expressed it
eloquently.




P2P

patrice068@optusnet.com.au (Dian) wrote in message news:<9a095db9.0404121030.1f577488@posting.google.com>... "pb..." <woodlark-99@newsguy.com> wrote in message news:<c5dmt701vv8@news1.newsguy.com>... Rupa Bose wrote: lilmtncbn@aol.comnospam (LilMtnCbn) wrote>>I understand the grief of everyone involved. I think, in that>>situation, I would feel the same way. But I really don't think it's>>the whole story; and I don't think working up a passionate frenzy over>>it really benefits any of her children.>>>>In terms of actual changes: Some have suggested enforceable open>>adoption agreements. That is something I would be supportive of.>>>>Rupa>>Rupa, this is exactly how I see the situation. Thanks for posting it so well.>> Thanks! Rupa Yes, Rupa...as always, well said. Can't help but recall the old saw about cooler heads prevailing. Emotion/anger will always be needed to light the fire, blow on the embers, and thrust us out of our collective stupor, but logical thinking will be the one tack which will see us through to our goals be they large or small. pb... God forbid that anyone would believe that the permanent loss of a child by adoption could ever be a catalyst that causes chronic depression. That's obviously because losing an actual child is nowhere near as emotionally catastrophic as losing the ability to create them.

The child was lost through relinquishment, an action of the b-mom; and
not through adoption, an action of the a-parents. And I do realize
that it was life-changing.

However, I would hazard that a tendency to clinical depression is
probably organic.

I wouldn't consider losing the ability to create children as causing
chronic depression either.

Rupa

In article <e5619372.0404121410.541216a0@posting.google.com>,
rkbose@pacific.net.sg (Rupa Bose) writes:
patrice068@optusnet.com.au (Dian) wrote in messagenews:<9a095db9.0404121030.1f577488@posting.google.com>... "pb..." <woodlark-99@newsguy.com> wrote in messagenews:<c5dmt701vv8@news1.newsguy.com>... Rupa Bose wrote: > lilmtncbn@aol.comnospam (LilMtnCbn) wrote > >>>I understand the grief of everyone involved. I think, in that >>>situation, I would feel the same way. But I really don't think it's >>>the whole story; and I don't think working up a passionate frenzy over >>>it really benefits any of her children. >>> >>>In terms of actual changes: Some have suggested enforceable open >>>adoption agreements. That is something I would be supportive of. >>> >>>Rupa >> >>Rupa, this is exactly how I see the situation. Thanks for posting itso well. >> >> > > Thanks! > > Rupa Yes, Rupa...as always, well said. Can't help but recall the old saw about cooler heads prevailing. Emotion/anger will always be needed to light the fire, blow on the embers, and thrust us out of our collective stupor, but logical thinking will be the one tack which will see us through to our goals be they large or small. pb... God forbid that anyone would believe that the permanent loss of a child by adoption could ever be a catalyst that causes chronic depression. That's obviously because losing an actual child is nowhere near as emotionally catastrophic as losing the ability to create them.The child was lost through relinquishment, an action of the b-mom; andnot through adoption, an action of the a-parents. And I do realizethat it was life-changing.However, I would hazard that a tendency to clinical depression isprobably organic.I wouldn't consider losing the ability to create children as causingchronic depression either.Rupa

There are any number of theories for clinical depression. I don't imagine any
one of them accounts for all cases, just as no single therapy or drug seems to
work for all who experience it. The last book I read on the subject focused on
male depression, hypothesizing a genetic predisposition triggered by trauma,
resulting in an organic imbalance. If anyone is interested, I can dig out the
title and author.

J.







Reply to jmhjmd at aol.

I responded to this post two days ago...it was in my software as a reply
but I haven't seen it posted to the group. Sorry for the double posting.
__________________________________________________ ______________

Dian wrote:
"pb..." <woodlark-99@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:<c5dmt701vv8@news1.newsguy.com>... Rupa Bose wrote: lilmtncbn@aol.comnospam (LilMtnCbn) wrote>> I understand the grief of everyone involved. I think, in that>> situation, I would feel the same way. But I really don't think it's>> the whole story; and I don't think working up a passionate frenzy
over>> it really benefits any of her children.>>>> In terms of actual changes: Some have suggested enforceable open>> adoption agreements. That is something I would be supportive of.>>>> Rupa>>> Rupa, this is exactly how I see the situation. Thanks for posting
it so well.>> Thanks! Rupa Yes, Rupa...as always, well said. Can't help but recall the old saw about cooler heads prevailing. Emotion/anger will always be needed to light the fire, blow on the embers, and thrust us out of our collective stupor, but logical thinking will be the one tack which will see us through to our goals be they large or small. pb... God forbid that anyone would believe that the permanent loss of a child by adoption could ever be a catalyst that causes chronic depression. That's obviously because losing an actual child is nowhere near as emotionally catastrophic as losing the ability to create them.



Whoa...did I say that? I was relying on my own "old feelings" and
speaking from personal experience. I apologize if you read my
message as anything other than that, Di. Goodness...not to mention
a few hundred others<g>...know of *my* experience with depression.
You may or may not be interested in knowing that I have been on
both ends of this equation...the child I lost to closed adoption
is also my *only* child. Many miscarriages and the humiliating
depersonalization of infertility treatments have played a number
and then some on my emotional state over many years. I can safely
say unequivocally that the loss of a living child to adoption and
loss of that phantom child are equally devastating -- at least
they were to me.


pb...




"To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men."
--Abraham Lincoln

Dian...

I replied to your post more than several days ago. You have since
that time replied to other posts on this subject but not to my
reply. Are avoiding a response or has your server just failed to
pick up my posts three times in a row? You'll find my original
response at the end of this message.

pb...

__________________________________________________ ______________

From: "pb..." <woodlark-99@newsguy.com>
Newsgroups: alt.adoption
Subject: Re: Fast Track Adoption: The Faster, Safer Way to Privately
Adopt a Baby
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 02:36:02 -0700

I responded to this post two days ago...it was in my software as a reply
but I haven't seen it posted to the group. Sorry for the double posting.
__________________________________________________ ______________

somewhere around 4/12/2004

Dian wrote:
"pb..." <woodlark-99@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:<c5dmt701vv8@news1.newsguy.com>... Rupa Bose wrote: lilmtncbn@aol.comnospam (LilMtnCbn) wrote>> I understand the grief of everyone involved. I think, in that>> situation, I would feel the same way. But I really don't think it's>> the whole story; and I don't think working up a passionate frenzy
over>> it really benefits any of her children.>>>> In terms of actual changes: Some have suggested enforceable open>> adoption agreements. That is something I would be supportive of.>>>> Rupa>>> Rupa, this is exactly how I see the situation. Thanks for posting
it so well.>> Thanks! Rupa Yes, Rupa...as always, well said. Can't help but recall the old saw about cooler heads prevailing. Emotion/anger will always be needed to light the fire, blow on the embers, and thrust us out of our collective stupor, but logical thinking will be the one tack which will see us through to our goals be they large or small. pb... God forbid that anyone would believe that the permanent loss of a child by adoption could ever be a catalyst that causes chronic depression. That's obviously because losing an actual child is nowhere near as emotionally catastrophic as losing the ability to create them.



Whoa...did I say that? I was relying on my own "old feelings" and
speaking from personal experience. I apologize if you read my
message as anything other than that, Di. Goodness...not to mention
a few hundred others<g>...know of *my* experience with depression.
You may or may not be interested in knowing that I have been on
both ends of this equation...the child I lost to closed adoption
is also my *only* child. Many miscarriages and the humiliating
depersonalization of infertility treatments have played a number
and then some on my emotional state over many years. I can safely
say unequivocally that the loss of a living child to adoption and
loss of that phantom child are equally devastating -- at least
they were to me.


pb...




"To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men." --Abraham Lincoln

"pb..." <woodlark-99@newsguy.com> wrote in message news:<c5n4eg01f84@news1.newsguy.com>... Dian... I replied to your post more than several days ago. You have since that time replied to other posts on this subject but not to my reply. Are avoiding a response or has your server just failed to pick up my posts three times in a row? You'll find my original response at the end of this message. pb...

Sorry pb, I did find your post and responded only to have my post lose
itself in cyberspace as they often do when I post lengthy replies, and
it takes a good nine hours for my posts to show up on my screen -
courtesy of Google. So I often forget to go back and try again. Will
try in an abreviated form this time. __________________________________________________ ______________ From: "pb..." <woodlark-99@newsguy.com> Newsgroups: alt.adoption Subject: Re: Fast Track Adoption: The Faster, Safer Way to Privately Adopt a Baby Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 02:36:02 -0700 I responded to this post two days ago...it was in my software as a reply but I haven't seen it posted to the group. Sorry for the double posting. __________________________________________________ ______________ somewhere around 4/12/2004 Dian wrote: "pb..." <woodlark-99@newsguy.com> wrote in message news:<c5dmt701vv8@news1.newsguy.com>... Rupa Bose wrote:> lilmtncbn@aol.comnospam (LilMtnCbn) wrote>>>>> I understand the grief of everyone involved. I think, in that>>> situation, I would feel the same way. But I really don't think it's>>> the whole story; and I don't think working up a passionate frenzy over>>> it really benefits any of her children.>>>>>> In terms of actual changes: Some have suggested enforceable open>>> adoption agreements. That is something I would be supportive of.>>>>>> Rupa>>>>>> Rupa, this is exactly how I see the situation. Thanks for posting it so well.>>>>>> Thanks!>> Rupa Yes, Rupa...as always, well said. Can't help but recall the old saw about cooler heads prevailing. Emotion/anger will always be needed to light the fire, blow on the embers, and thrust us out of our collective stupor, but logical thinking will be the one tack which will see us through to our goals be they large or small. pb... God forbid that anyone would believe that the permanent loss of a child by adoption could ever be a catalyst that causes chronic depression. That's obviously because losing an actual child is nowhere near as emotionally catastrophic as losing the ability to create them. Whoa...did I say that? I was relying on my own "old feelings" and speaking from personal experience. I apologize if you read my message as anything other than that, Di. Goodness...not to mention a few hundred others<g>...know of *my* experience with depression.


No you didn't say it, and I apologise if I read it as you also
agreeing wiht Rupa's "cool head" that chose to blame everything but
adoption for Cindy's anguished soul that created the outcome that it
did.

You may or may not be interested in knowing that I have been on both ends of this equation...the child I lost to closed adoption is also my *only* child. Many miscarriages and the humiliating depersonalization of infertility treatments have played a number and then some on my emotional state over many years. I can safely say unequivocally that the loss of a living child to adoption and loss of that phantom child are equally devastating -- at least they were to me. pb...

Yes I do know a little about your history and I have also experienced
both ends of this equation, which is precisely why my views are as
they are.
Like you, the child I lost to adoption was my only child, and other
than an early miscarriage I never conceived again.

I cannot compartmentalise each loss as being separate experiences
however. To me it's an ongoing consequence of the original adoption
loss, as, but for adoption, I would not have had to adjust to a life
without children, and you would not have had to put yourself through
those dreadful fertility treatments in an attempt to have the child
you craved. As it is, adoption only serves to transfer the loss of one
woman's fertility, and/or lifelong grief, onto another. Which is
precicely why adopter's refuse to acknowledge that relinquishing a
child, even voluntarily, could possibly have such a devastating
longterm effect on the mother. It's far more comfortable to ignore the
obvious.

Di

In article <9a095db9.0404170504.4593bc41@posting.google.com>, Dian says...
snipoI cannot compartmentalise each loss as being separate experienceshowever. To me it's an ongoing consequence of the original adoptionloss, as, but for adoption, I would not have had to adjust to a lifewithout children, and you would not have had to put yourself throughthose dreadful fertility treatments in an attempt to have the childyou craved. As it is, adoption only serves to transfer the loss of onewoman's fertility, and/or lifelong grief, onto another. Which isprecicely why adopter's refuse to acknowledge that relinquishing achild, even voluntarily, could possibly have such a devastatinglongterm effect on the mother. It's far more comfortable to ignore theobvious.

I'm going to assume you meant "some" adopters and not all.

Because if you didn't, you're wrong.

Robyn
Resident Witchypoo & EAC Spellcaster
#1557

"Dian" <patrice068@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:9a095db9.0404170504.4593bc41@posting.google.c om...


God forbid that anyone would believe that the permanent loss of a child by adoption could ever be a catalyst that causes chronic depression. That's obviously because losing an actual child is nowhere near as emotionally catastrophic as losing the ability to create them. Whoa...did I say that? I was relying on my own "old feelings" and speaking from personal experience. I apologize if you read my message as anything other than that, Di. Goodness...not to mention a few hundred others<g>...know of *my* experience with depression. No you didn't say it, and I apologise if I read it as you also agreeing wiht Rupa's "cool head" that chose to blame everything but adoption for Cindy's anguished soul that created the outcome that it did. You may or may not be interested in knowing that I have been on both ends of this equation...the child I lost to closed adoption is also my *only* child. Many miscarriages and the humiliating depersonalization of infertility treatments have played a number and then some on my emotional state over many years. I can safely say unequivocally that the loss of a living child to adoption and loss of that phantom child are equally devastating -- at least they were to me. pb... Yes I do know a little about your history and I have also experienced both ends of this equation, which is precisely why my views are as they are. Like you, the child I lost to adoption was my only child, and other than an early miscarriage I never conceived again.


That must have been extremely difficult and heartwrenching for both of you.
I'm sorry you both have had to travel that path in life.

Kathy 1

>In article <9a095db9.0404170504.4593bc41@posting.google.com>, Dian says...
Which isprecicely why adopter's refuse to acknowledge that relinquishing achild, even voluntarily, could possibly have such a devastatinglongterm effect on the mother. It's far more comfortable to ignore theobvious

Egads, you have without a doubt the worst persecution complex.

You, and your blanket statements which continue to condemn an entire class of
people for your fragile ego.








Diane Welfare, "she describes the US market as a "$US1.4 billion business in
baby trafficking". ~~121603
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/12/15/1071336884771.html

Robibnikoff <nospam@newsranger.com> wrote in message news:<98bgc.1565$H4.127@www.newsranger.com>... In article <9a095db9.0404170504.4593bc41@posting.google.com>, Dian says... snipoI cannot compartmentalise each loss as being separate experienceshowever. To me it's an ongoing consequence of the original adoptionloss, as, but for adoption, I would not have had to adjust to a lifewithout children, and you would not have had to put yourself throughthose dreadful fertility treatments in an attempt to have the childyou craved. As it is, adoption only serves to transfer the loss of onewoman's fertility, and/or lifelong grief, onto another. Which isprecicely why adopter's refuse to acknowledge that relinquishing achild, even voluntarily, could possibly have such a devastatinglongterm effect on the mother. It's far more comfortable to ignore theobvious. I'm going to assume you meant "some" adopters and not all. Because if you didn't, you're wrong.

You may well be right. On what evidence do you base your claim? Please cite?

Di


Robyn Resident Witchypoo & EAC Spellcaster #1557

In article <9a095db9.0404192152.4800b0a1@posting.google.com>, Dian says...Robibnikoff <nospam@newsranger.com> wrote in message news:<98bgc.1565$H4.127@www.newsranger.com>... In article <9a095db9.0404170504.4593bc41@posting.google.com>, Dian says... snipoI cannot compartmentalise each loss as being separate experienceshowever. To me it's an ongoing consequence of the original adoptionloss, as, but for adoption, I would not have had to adjust to a lifewithout children, and you would not have had to put yourself throughthose dreadful fertility treatments in an attempt to have the childyou craved. As it is, adoption only serves to transfer the loss of onewoman's fertility, and/or lifelong grief, onto another. Which isprecicely why adopter's refuse to acknowledge that relinquishing achild, even voluntarily, could possibly have such a devastatinglongterm effect on the mother. It's far more comfortable to ignore theobvious. I'm going to assume you meant "some" adopters and not all. Because if you didn't, you're wrong.You may well be right. On what evidence do you base your claim? Please cite?

Discussions with my own adoptive parents about my bmom. But, I bet that's not
good enough for you, is it?

Hey, just one example proves you wrong.

Robyn
Resident Witchypoo & EAC Spellcaster
#1557

Robibnikoff <nospam@newsranger.com> wrote in message news:<nP8hc.1676$H4.210@www.newsranger.com>... In article <9a095db9.0404192152.4800b0a1@posting.google.com>, Dian says...Robibnikoff <nospam@newsranger.com> wrote in message news:<98bgc.1565$H4.127@www.newsranger.com>... In article <9a095db9.0404170504.4593bc41@posting.google.com>, Dian says... snipo > >I cannot compartmentalise each loss as being separate experiences >however. To me it's an ongoing consequence of the original adoption >loss, as, but for adoption, I would not have had to adjust to a life >without children, and you would not have had to put yourself through >those dreadful fertility treatments in an attempt to have the child >you craved. As it is, adoption only serves to transfer the loss of one >woman's fertility, and/or lifelong grief, onto another. Which is >precicely why adopter's refuse to acknowledge that relinquishing a >child, even voluntarily, could possibly have such a devastating >longterm effect on the mother. It's far more comfortable to ignore the >obvious. I'm going to assume you meant "some" adopters and not all. Because if you didn't, you're wrong.You may well be right. On what evidence do you base your claim? Please cite? Discussions with my own adoptive parents about my bmom. But, I bet that's not good enough for you, is it? Hey, just one example proves you wrong.

Nor does one example prove you right. Should I have said "adopters generally"?

Di




Robyn Resident Witchypoo & EAC Spellcaster #1557

>Subject: Re: ATTN: Dian Re: Fast Track Adoption: The Faster, Safer Way toPrivately Adopt a BabyFrom: patrice068@optusnet.com.au (Dian)Date: 4/20/04 9:59 AM Pacific Daylight TimeMessage-id: <9a095db9.0404200859.500f5fcb@posting.google.com>Robibnikoff <nospam@newsranger.com> wrote in messagenews:<nP8hc.1676$H4.210@www.newsranger.com>... In article <9a095db9.0404192152.4800b0a1@posting.google.com>, Dian says...Robibnikoff <nospam@newsranger.com> wrote in messagenews:<98bgc.1565$H4.127@www.newsranger.com>...> In article <9a095db9.0404170504.4593bc41@posting.google.com>, Diansays...> snipo> >> >I cannot compartmentalise each loss as being separate experiences> >however. To me it's an ongoing consequence of the original adoption> >loss, as, but for adoption, I would not have had to adjust to a life> >without children, and you would not have had to put yourself through> >those dreadful fertility treatments in an attempt to have the child> >you craved. As it is, adoption only serves to transfer the loss of one> >woman's fertility, and/or lifelong grief, onto another. Which is> >precicely why adopter's refuse to acknowledge that relinquishing a> >child, even voluntarily, could possibly have such a devastating> >longterm effect on the mother. It's far more comfortable to ignore the> >obvious.>> I'm going to assume you meant "some" adopters and not all.>> Because if you didn't, you're wrong.>You may well be right. On what evidence do you base your claim? Pleasecite? Discussions with my own adoptive parents about my bmom. But, I bet that'snot good enough for you, is it? Hey, just one example proves you wrong.Nor does one example prove you right. Should I have said "adoptersgenerally"?Di

No, you shouldn't say anything about adopters. The root of your problems has
nothing to do with them wronging poor little you.






Diane Welfare, "she describes the US market as a "$US1.4 billion business in
baby trafficking". ~~121603
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/12/15/1071336884771.html

In article <9a095db9.0404200859.500f5fcb@posting.google.com>, Dian says...Robibnikoff <nospam@newsranger.com> wrote in message news:<nP8hc.1676$H4.210@www.newsranger.com>... In article <9a095db9.0404192152.4800b0a1@posting.google.com>, Dian says...Robibnikoff <nospam@newsranger.com> wrote in message news:<98bgc.1565$H4.127@www.newsranger.com>...> In article <9a095db9.0404170504.4593bc41@posting.google.com>, Dian says...> snipo> >> >I cannot compartmentalise each loss as being separate experiences> >however. To me it's an ongoing consequence of the original adoption> >loss, as, but for adoption, I would not have had to adjust to a life> >without children, and you would not have had to put yourself through> >those dreadful fertility treatments in an attempt to have the child> >you craved. As it is, adoption only serves to transfer the loss of one> >woman's fertility, and/or lifelong grief, onto another. Which is> >precicely why adopter's refuse to acknowledge that relinquishing a> >child, even voluntarily, could possibly have such a devastating> >longterm effect on the mother. It's far more comfortable to ignore the> >obvious.>> I'm going to assume you meant "some" adopters and not all.>> Because if you didn't, you're wrong.>You may well be right. On what evidence do you base your claim? Please cite? Discussions with my own adoptive parents about my bmom. But, I bet that's not good enough for you, is it? Hey, just one example proves you wrong.Nor does one example prove you right.

Sure it does - If you meant to say "ALL adopters". If that was what you meant
to say, then my one example DOES prove you wrong.
Should I have said "adopters generally"?

Of course not - You should have said "in my opinion, some adopters" etc., etc.

Robyn
Resident Witchypoo & EAC Spellcaster
#1557

In article <1a4c2bd3.0404210937.4637c8a9@posting.google.com>,
LauraLewis1@msn.com (Laura Lewis) wrote:

Most white Americans accepted racism once. They accepted the notion that women were property and had no right to vote. They accepted pushing Indians from their native lands onto reservations. They accepted sweatshops and child labor and the abuse of migrant workers. These were ordinary Americans.


What? No reference to slavery? To the Holocaust?

You're slipping. Di would never let that happen in her posts.




steve